Talk to me about amps

[ForeverAutumn]

Hubby and I are looking at purchasing a new system. We have a decent sounding set-up now that we've pieced together over the years (I'm sure most of you would consider it amatuer), but it's time to spend some dough on a real rig.

We're looking at possibly Paradigm Studio 60s, but I want to hear a few more speakers before making a final decision as the 60s are really stretching the budget.

Let's assume we end up with the Studio 60s or something similar. How much should I be budgeting for an amp? And what should I be looking for? If we end up with, say, Paradigm Monitor 9s or PSB T55s, does that change the amp we should get?

We use our system primarily for music but do have a 5.1 surround set-up also. I don't see us ever moving to 7.1. We watch about a movie a month so its really not worth it. 95% of the time our speakers are used for music.

[GMichael]

Budget? So many choices are based on $$ available.
This would be about your cheapest option http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm (unless you go used)
But from what I've read, this unit delivers the goods for cheap.
Now, if you've got more cash to throw around, better IS available.

[Mr Peabody]

Is the surround sound a separate system or will this be one system used for both music and movies? Most dealers carry amps that match their line of speakers pretty well, this would be a good place to start. If only one system for everything and on a budget I'd look for a receiver with true preamp outputs and add a good 2 channel amp for the mains. If this can't be done at time of purchase it can always be done as money allows. Another avenue may be to look at good receivers by the likes of NAD or Rotel.

[bfalls]

I purchased the Emotiva XPA-5 about a month ago and couldn't be happier. I have several upper-level AV receiver from Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo and Sony. I had been happy with the sound, but always wanted check out separates. Not wanting to commit too large a chuck of cash, I checked out the Emotiva site.

The XPA-5 has five channels @200w/ch 8ohms, 350W/ch 4ohm. It has both balanced XLR and RCA unbalanced inputs. The power supply has a 1.6KVA transformer and over 60,000mfd in stored capacitance. Build quality is excellent.

The difference was very noticeable. I currently have it connected to my Sony ES series 130W/ch receiver. The sound was effortless, had more air and extended dynamics over the receiver. It's still in the process of breaking in, but I can see it only getting better.

I was so impressed with the quality and value of the amp I purchased a pair of their bookshelf speakers. They are also a great buy at $149/ea $10 shipping. They had a 4th of July sale and added free shipping to the deal. I just couldn't pass it up. They are still breaking in as well. In general, I'm very pleased with both purchases. I'm actually considering the purchase of a third bookshelf since they are being discontinued.

So far I haven't seen anything bad and very impressed. BTW, I'm not associated with Emotiva in any way. I just appreciate an exceptional deal when I see/hear one. Check them out, you won't be disappointed. They do have a return policy.

[kexodusc]

FA are you looking for an amplifier, or a receiver (basically a replacement of the JVC you have now?)

Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably, just want to be sure we know what you want.

[ForeverAutumn]

Is the surround sound a separate system or will this be one system used for both music and movies? Most dealers carry amps that match their line of speakers pretty well, this would be a good place to start. If only one system for everything and on a budget I'd look for a receiver with true preamp outputs and add a good 2 channel amp for the mains. If this can't be done at time of purchase it can always be done as money allows. Another avenue may be to look at good receivers by the likes of NAD or Rotel.

Same system for both. Forgive my ignorance I'm totally new to the gear side of music. Are you saying that I should have two amps?

What's the difference between an amp and a preamp? I embarrassed to ask these questions, but for all the music that I listen to, I've never had the money to pay any attention to gear before now. It's time to get educated.

[ForeverAutumn]

FA are you looking for an amplifier, or a receiver (basically a replacement of the JVC you have now?)

Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably, just want to be sure we know what you want.

I guess I'm looking for something to replace the JVC receiver since I don't think it will be adequate for the new speakers. The truth is that I don't really know what I need. I used to think that any old receiver will do, but apparently that's not the case.

Man, I feel ignorant. :blush2:

[ForeverAutumn]

Most dealers carry amps that match their line of speakers pretty well, this would be a good place to start.

I'd like to go in there with some knowledge on the topic. The dealer's job is to make a sale and a profit. While I really like the salesman that we're dealing with and I believe that he wants to make us happy, returning, customers, we have slightly different agendas.

[Feanor]

I guess I'm looking for something to replace the JVC receiver since I don't think it will be adequate for the new speakers. The truth is that I don't really know what I need. I used to think that any old receiver will do, but apparently that's not the case.

Man, I feel ignorant. :blush2:

Yes, FA, you should be ashamed. :hand: (Just kidding of course.)

A quality receiver will do -- I can't really recommend a model but you'll probably need to look in the C$800+ range. I'll admit an Emotiva UMC-1 + XPA-5 combo looks darned attractive -- though pricier and, of course, an import from the US.

The Paradigm Studio speakers are actually moderately efficient. You don't need anything like 200 wpc to drive them: it's much more important to have quality power rather than quantity.

[GMichael]

FA , Is there anything wrong with the JVC you have?

[ForeverAutumn]

FA , Is there anything wrong with the JVC you have?

Nothing. It's actually quite a nice unit that has served us well. It's 100wpc. Here are the specs. (http://www.jvc.ca/www/Consumer/products.aspx?f=RX-6030V&d=1)

[GMichael]

Nothing. It's actually quite a nice unit that has served us well. It's 100wpc. Here are the specs. (http://www.jvc.ca/www/Consumer/products.aspx?f=RX-6030V&d=1)

Seems like a reasonable receiver. Are you just looking for a step up?

[Feanor]

Nothing. It's actually quite a nice unit that has served us well. It's 100wpc. Here are the specs. (http://www.jvc.ca/www/Consumer/products.aspx?f=RX-6030V&d=1)

I'd venture to say that you have no urgent need to replace that JVC from the point of view of powering Paradigm speakers to normal volumes -- you'd be better off puting the cash towards replacing your center and surround speakers with matching Paradigms.

I assum you have the RX-6030 version with S-video and Component inputs. However that model does not have the HDMI interface which eventually you are going to want for interfacing with a Blu-ray in a flexible way. (Not all Blu-ray players have Component output.)

[ForeverAutumn]

Seems like a reasonable receiver. Are you just looking for a step up?

I'm not looking for anything if I don't need it. I just assumed that the JVC wouldn't be good enough to power the larger speakers. But if it'll do the job and provide us with good sound, then I'm happy with that.

I guess that I was under the impression that a good receiver makes a big sound difference. If we're going to drop two grand on speakers then I didn't want to be powering them with something that wasn't going to make them sound their best.


I'd venture to say that you have no urgent need to replace that JVC from the point of view of powering Paradigm speakers to normal volumes -- you'd be better off puting the cash towards replacing your center and surround speakers with matching Paradigms.

I assum you have the RX-6030 version with S-video and Component inputs. However that model does not have the HDMI interface which eventually you are going to want for interfacing with a Blu-ray in a flexible way. (Not all Blu-ray players have Component output.)

Define "normal volumes". :3:

Your assumptions about the receiver are correct. There is no HDMI interface, but adding a Blu-ray player is not high on our priority list since we rarely use our DVD player now. I'm hoping that the price on Blu-ray players will drop some more before we get around to that.

My plan was to move our current main speakers to the back. But if we don't need a new receiver then, perhaps you're right and I should look at matching rears. That will free up our current speakers for another room.

This is all good news! :)

[GMichael]

I'm not looking for anything if I don't need it. I just assumed that the JVC wouldn't be good enough to power the larger speakers. But if it'll do the job and provide us with good sound, then I'm happy with that.

I guess that I was under the impression that a good receiver makes a big sound difference. If we're going to drop two grand on speakers then I didn't want to be powering them with something that wasn't going to make them sound their best.



Define "normal volumes". :3:

Your assumptions about the receiver are correct. There is no HDMI interface, but adding a Blu-ray player is not high on our priority list since we rarely use our DVD player now. I'm hoping that the price on Blu-ray players will drop some more before we get around to that.

My plan was to move our current main speakers to the back. But if we don't need a new receiver then, perhaps you're right and I should look at matching rears. That will free up our current speakers for another room.

This is all good news! :)

Hmmmm... Need and want are not the same thing. Your JVC will drive those speakers, and they will sound great. A more powerful receiver would make them sound a little better. Step up to a processor and external amp, and you'll have yet another improvement. It all boils down to how much you are willing to put out (see how I slipped that in?).
My suggestion would be to use what you have and see if it fits your needs. If it does, great. If it comes up short, then look to upgrade. Something with HDMI would be best.

What about that center speaker? Does it match your new towers?

[kexodusc]

FA, if nothing else, try the Studio 60's (good choice btw) first with your receiver. They'll probably play plenty loud. What speakers do you have now and how old are they? There's a chance the Studios will play considerably louder...

If you decide there's something lacking, you can always buy a receiver later. Don't let that nasty sales guy tell you otherwise.

[ForeverAutumn]

Wow. I'm glad that I asked you guys first. I was all ready to drop another bundle on a receiver but it doesn't sound like I need to do that yet. Which is great news!

To answer all your Qs. we have a very nice StudioLab centre which we bought about 9 years ago to match our StudioLab bookshelfs which are our mains and were purchased about 10 years ago.

I know that the Studio 60s will be louder and fuller than what we have now. Actually, one of Hubby's concerns is whether they will be too loud (like there's such a thing, :rolleyes:) for the size of the room. When we go to hear them for the second time I want to play them at low volume too.

The sales guy never tried to pressure us into a new receiver. His attitude is that if he treats us well on the speaker purchase now, then we'll come back to him when we're ready to upgrade the rest of our components...and he told us as much. It was me who was thinking that it might be beneficial to do it all at once.

We're not completely sold on the Studio 60s yet. Hubby thinks that we're spending too much and wants to look at a few less expensive options. I don't mind looking around, but I'm pretty certain that we'll end up back at the 60s. I do want to hear them at lower volumes and I want to hear some of my own music on them. I haven't heard any metal on them yet and any speaker that gets through my front door had better be able to drive some progressive metal.

[Hyfi]

Here is a good review of the Studio speakers as an HT system.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/paradigm_studio60v3_cc570v3_adp470v3_seismic12.htm

As far as amps go, yes your receiver will drive the speakers and for most earbud mp3 listening folks, it will do just fine. If you are going to demo the speakers, have them play them through a receiver first and then switch them to a separates system with a 150-200wpc high current amp and put a pillow on the floor under your chin for when your jaw drops.

What you should notice is a better midrange, meaning the tone and timbre of each instrument will be more accurate. You will also notice improved bass control and depth as opposed to the normal mush of all three ranges you get out of most receivers.

Those speakers are in line with some JM-Focals and B&W and Dynaudio speakers but luckily the sensativity is a little higher so as not to require the power needed to correctly drive a Dane.

As always, listen for yourself with all options available. Listen to the 60s in the store with both receiver and separate amp. If you do buy the speakers, listen with your receiver and decide if it's good enough or not.

[nightflier]

Not to muddy the waters, but the Axiom M80s (I always think of fireworks when I say that), should probably also be on your list of speakers to audition. Axiom is also Canadian so shipping/fees should be tolerable, and they do make a good performing speaker. Granted it's not a Paradigm on looks, but the savings could be used towards a better receiver (or preamp / amp combo).

I've owned the M80s, and even though that was years ago, that's one speaker I still regret having sold. They excel in dynamic range, and would have made a very good reference/baseline speaker for auditioning and comparing gear. They are especially well suited to pop and rock music, which I'm guessing is your type of music. Yes, Rush, April Wine, Kim Mitchell, and Triumph will definitely sound good on those speakers.

The Paradigms are no slouches. I haven't heard Studio 60s, but I've heard others including the reference series and to my ears they have a more extended and refined treble, but lack the oomph and body you would get from the Axioms. I think the PSBs (other than the Platinum series) tend to be closer to the Paradigms in sound as well. I've been told that the Synchronys are a bit different, so my info may be out of date, but that's been my experience.

Just FYI: the M80s also go a good 10-20Hz lower, will handle an additional 150w of power, and run on as little as 10w. They are slightly larger (just over 3cm wider, really), but that also gives them more internal capacity. And they do all that for about C$1550.

No, I do not work for Axiom or any other A/V manufacturer. I'm just an enthusiastic former customer. If I can add one more plug: their tech support is excellent. They have suffered through quite a few of my lengthy emails to even help me set up HT gear that wasn't Axiom's. The owner, Ian, is also very accessible and will answer emails as well.

Anyhow, that's been my experience.

[Luvin Da Blues]

We're not completely sold on the Studio 60s yet. Hubby thinks that we're spending too much and wants to look at a few less expensive options. I don't mind looking around, but I'm pretty certain that we'll end up back at the 60s.

Have ya listened to the G-Designs yet?

[ForeverAutumn]

Have ya listened to the G-Designs yet?

No. The only PSBs we've heard are the T45s. They had the G-Designs in the store we went to, but I wasn't considering that price range initially. It was only after hearing the Studios that I considered increasing my budget. So now we have to go back and try some others in that higher range. The G-Designs looked quite a bit bigger than the Paradigms (as did the T55s) and we have to be conscous of cabinet size as our room is only 11 feet wide and we don't want speakers that are going to stick out too far from the wall. One of the nice things about the design of the Studios was the rounded cabinet that gave the speakers a much smaller appearance than the squared cabinets of the PSBs and the Monitor series.

Thanks for your input Hyfi and Nightflier. I'll see if I can find the Axioms for sale around here.

[GMichael]

No. The only PSBs we've heard are the T45s. They had the G-Designs in the store we went to, but I wasn't considering that price range initially. It was only after hearing the Studios that I considered increasing my budget. So now we have to go back and try some others in that higher range. The G-Designs looked quite a bit bigger than the Paradigms (as did the T55s) and we have to be conscous of cabinet size as our room is only 11 feet wide and we don't want speakers that are going to stick out too far from the wall. One of the nice things about the design of the Studios was the rounded cabinet that gave the speakers a much smaller appearance than the squared cabinets of the PSBs and the Monitor series.

Thanks for your input Hyfi and Nightflier. I'll see if I can find the Axioms for sale around here.
I think they are an internet only company, but that may just be my view.

[ForeverAutumn]

I think they are an internet only company, but that may just be my view.

Yes, it appears that way. It seems like kind of a hassle to have to buy them without hearing them and then ship them back if we don't like them.

[Luvin Da Blues]

The G-Designs looked quite a bit bigger than the Paradigms (as did the T55s) and we have to be conscous of cabinet size as our room is only 11 feet wide and we don't want speakers that are going to stick out too far from the wall. The Gs are actually considered a small tower.


[QUOTE=ForeverAutumn]One of the nice things about the design of the Studios was the rounded cabinet that gave the speakers a much smaller appearance than the squared cabinets of the PSBs and the Monitor series. The Gs also have rounded corners on the sides and top whereas the front baffle is curved.[QUOTE]

BTW, the T-45s aren't in the same league as the G-designs. The Gs are more neutral and detailed. At first listen you may find them a tab bit boring but after a few minutes of listening the refinment will become aparent. Have a listen.

[GMichael]

Yes, it appears that way. It seems like kind of a hassle to have to buy them without hearing them and then ship them back if we don't like them.

True, but hearing speakers in a store is not the same as hearing them at home.

[TheHills44060]

A friend of mine has the PSB 4T's (earlier generation very similar to the T55's) and is powering them with a Pioneer receiver about the same amount of power as your JVC and it sounds fine. More than enough volume for an average sized family room and a decent amount of bass.

[Rudy Gireyev]

Hi FA.

It looks like you are getting some wonderful advice. I thought I'd answer some of your questions and toss my $.2 into the pot.

First I thought I would answer your questions about the different ways of driving the speakers:

1. Amplifier Only - These Can be multichannel, stereo or monoblock amplifiers. They usually take some sort of analog input from the preamp, amplify it and send it off to the speakers. If you see something very large and something very heavy there is a good chance that it belongs to this category. :)

2. Preamp - This is a controlling unit. It can take a digital or analog input signal and send it off to the amplifier(s) in analog form. Usually it has multiple input options. This is where you plug in your CD Player, your tape player, record player and so forth.

3. Integrated amp - When a pream and an amplifier are combined into a single unit, it is called an integrated amplifier.

4. Receiver - An integrated amplifier with a radio receiver added to it.

As far as pairing speakers with the amplifier. You are correct that it is important to select your speaker first and then try to match an amplifier to it. Speakers have efficiency ratings. Anything over 90dB is said to be an efficient speaker and does not need a lot of power. According to the Paradigm site the Studio 60s have a rating of 92dB which means they are very efficient. Now that doesn't mean that they will sound their best with just anything. A very efficient speaker can be driven with a Yorx or Emerson or a Craig system, but it doesn't mean that they will sound their best. ;) There is no question that your JVC receiver will driver them, the question is how well. In order to see and compare for yourself perhaps you may consider bringing your JVC with you when you go to audition the speakers and then compare it to the amps the store is using to showcase them. That should put things in perspective very quickly. ;) Obviously you'll want to make notes on the makes and models of the receivers the store uses.
Glancing at the specifications of the JVC I think it will not take long to figure out where it stands, as good speakers tend to be rather revealing of limitations of the equipment and sources before them.

As far as the Axioms, I would try to contact the company and see if they have any customers in your area willing to let you hear their speakers. If not well then not, you've lost nothing.

I would love to hear what the gurus on this site think of the Trends Audio TA 10.1 as a 2 channel option for you for the Studio 60 speakers.

Lastly, speaking from past experience. I realized that heavy metal music tends to showcase low and high frequencies only, and does not do a good job of elucidating the capabilities of the mid section reproduction. So if possible bring some other music along that can test the mid section well.


Enjoy.
Rudy

[GMichael]

Hi FA.

It looks like you are getting some wonderful advice. I thought I'd answer some of your questions and toss my $.2 into the pot.

First I thought I would answer your questions about the different ways of driving the speakers:

1. Amplifier Only - These Can be multichannel, stereo or monoblock amplifiers. They usually take some sort of analog input from the preamp, amplify it and send it off to the speakers. If you see something very large and something very heavy there is a good chance that it belongs to this category. :)

2. Preamp - This is a controlling unit. It can take a digital or analog input signal and send it off to the amplifier(s) in analog form. Usually it has multiple input options. This is where you plug in your CD Player, your tape player, record player and so forth.

3. Integrated amp - When a pream and an amplifier are combined into a single unit, it is called an integrated amplifier.

4. Receiver - An integrated amplifier with a radio receiver added to it.

As far as pairing speakers with the amplifier. You are correct that it is important to select your speaker first and then try to match an amplifier to it. Speakers have efficiency ratings. Anything over 90dB is said to be an efficient speaker and does not need a lot of power. According to the Paradigm site the Studio 60s have a rating of 92dB which means they are very efficient. Now that doesn't mean that they will sound their best with just anything. A very efficient speaker can be driven with a Yorx or Emerson or a Craig system, but it doesn't mean that they will sound their best. ;) There is no question that your JVC receiver will driver them, the question is how well. In order to see and compare for yourself perhaps you may consider bringing your JVC with you when you go to audition the speakers and then compare it to the amps the store is using to showcase them. That should put things in perspective very quickly. ;) Obviously you'll want to make notes on the makes and models of the receivers the store uses.
Glancing at the specifications of the JVC I think it will not take long to figure out where it stands, as good speakers tend to be rather revealing of limitations of the equipment and sources before them.

As far as the Axioms, I would try to contact the company and see if they have any customers in your area willing to let you hear their speakers. If not well then not, you've lost nothing.

I would love to hear what the gurus on this site think of the Trends Audio TA 10.1 as a 2 channel option for you for the Studio 60 speakers.

Lastly, speaking from past experience. I realized that heavy metal music tends to showcase low and high frequencies only, and does not do a good job of elucidating the capabilities of the mid section reproduction. So if possible bring some other music along that can test the mid section well.


Enjoy.
Rudy

Great post! I like you already.

[Mr Peabody]

No offense meant but here's my observation. JVC is like the entry level of receivers as far as sound quality. With a sub you can over come some of the lack of current, or guts, in the JVC. I agree with what some have already said, the JVC would drive your speakers but definitely not to their potential. Another receiver such as an Onkyo with a punchy amp section would help. The additional control and punch in the bass would be appreciated when listening to the Prog/Metal. If you could go the price NAD would be good to. Another option would be to do like Kex and some others and buy a decent receiver with preamp outputs and add a larger amp later for the mains. The real deal if buying a good speaker like Paradigm or PSB would be to look at separates like maybe the Emotiva. Other separates as you will see can run into big money. Your hubby shouldn't worry about the 60's being too much for the room. They only play as loud as you drive them. With moving to better speakers and electronics you will begin to hear detail in your favorite recordings you never knew were there. If budget is a concern you can always do things in steps, start with the speakers and upgrade in other areas later.

[ForeverAutumn]

Hi FA.

It looks like you are getting some wonderful advice. I thought I'd answer some of your questions and toss my $.2 into the pot...

Enjoy.
Rudy

Thanks Rudy! What great post to answer all my questions.

I didn't think about taking our receiver with us, but it's a very good idea since it gives us a chance to compare everything in the same environment. I already know that the speakers will not sound the same in our house as in the store. They have a designated listening room with accoustic panels on the wall and carpet on the floor; we do not.

I have started to put together a collection of music that I think will test the speakers in different ways. My metal selection is actually a progressive rock selection (Ayreon, Abbey of Synn) that includes whispered voices, flute, lots of bass, a baritone voice, choral voices, keyboards, and a much higher pitched guitar solo. There are also several volume changes. There are lots of layers in the music to test the separation of sounds. It is an extremly complex and well recorded piece and I've always suspected that there is more to it than our little speakers can bring out. I'm excited to hear what a set of really good speakers will bring to the piece.

We will also bring some other styles of music with us. Specifically, I'm thinking Hem (minimalistic folk), Colin James (big band and blues) and Andrew Bird (quirky indie). I also want to take some poorly recorded stuff to hear, I'm thinking of some old Doc Watson circa 1964 recording. A well recorded CD will sound good on anything (that Ayreon CD even sounds good in my car). I think that its also important to hear how a badly recorded CD can sound.

I'm hoping to get out and test a few more speakers on Saturday, but I'm not sure that we'll have time. I really appreciate your input! That was the best $.2 I've had in a long time.

[ForeverAutumn]

No offense meant but here's my observation.

No offense taken. If Hubby didn't work there, I would have never bought a JVC receiver in the first place. But as far as receivers go, it's not half bad. We have some other JVC audio in our house that isn't nearly as good. Although its fine for the casual HT consumer who wants a decent system in a box.

The JVC TVs we have are top notch though!

[Hyfi]

More than enough volume for an average sized family room and a decent amount of bass.


Volume is not the only thing to look for. Loud is not the same as Sounds Good. What do the instruments sound like? Does the bass sound like mush? Are the highs irritating or missing all together. What kind of soundstage does it throw? Is it at all believable?

It seems like people are answering FA's question of "Will my JVC drive the Studio 60s?" with "yes it will be loud enough".

Short answer is YES, but what will the sound quality be like. I would much rather listen to something detailed, accurate, and beautiful at lower volume before I would choose Loud and muffled.

[bfalls]

Don't get me wrong, I love the Paradigms. I've drooled over the Studio 100s for years, but can't justify the cost since I already have good quality high-end speakers. Paradigm is one of my top 5 when people ask for recommendations.

I did a quick search on ebay and found pairs of 60s going from $850 - $1500. For a little more you can buy an Emotiva XPA-5 ($799, use your JVC as the preamp), 3 ERM-1s ($149/ea) and a pair of ERD-1s ($299). With this system you won't need to worry if you have enough power for the ERM-1s, or pretty much any speaker you may upgrade to later. Their shipping is inexpensive in the US. The XPA-5's shipping weight is 88lbs and shipping is only $25. The ERM-1s ship free (when 3 or more are purchased) and the ERD-1s are $10. I'm willing to bet you could talk them out of the fee for the ERD-1s and have everything shipped (US) for $25. I'm not sure how that changes shipping to Canada.

The XPA-5 also allows you to upgrade your preamp later at lesser cost than purchasing a new receiver and provides additional flexibility. Using your receiver as a preamp, you can use three channels for the front and still use the JVC to drive the rears. This will leave two channels for a separate two channel reference system, or to bi-amp capable main speakers. I've tried the latter with my Legacy Focus mains (using my receiver to drive the side and rear surrounds).

I have no association with Emotiva, I just feel the quality for price is just too good to pass up. The ERM-1s are being closed out, since the ERM-6.2 are almost identical in their specs, they decided not to carry both. I plan to purchase another ERM-1before they're gone to complete the front half for another surround system. Being not so "hardware savvy" I think this would be a very good audiophile quality starter system for you. You should check out their site before making a decision.

[ForeverAutumn]

I looked on eBay and only saw the 60's for $1399 and they were v.4s.

In my experience it doesn't pay to have this kind of equipment shipped to Canada. By the time I pay for the currency exchange, shipping, insurance and duty, I might as well just buy them here. Also, not all equipment has North American warranties. I've often found items for less in the US but the warranty isn't honoured in Canada. I don't know if this is the case here, but these are all things to consider.

[bfalls]

Don't get me wrong, I love the Paradigms. I've drooled over the Studio 100s for years, but can't justify the cost since I already have good quality high-end speakers. Paradigm is one of my top 5 when people ask for recommendations.

I did a quick search on ebay and found pairs of 60s going from $850 - $1500. For a little more you can buy an Emotiva XPA-5 ($799, use your JVC as the preamp), 3 ERM-1s ($149/ea) and a pair of ERD-1s ($299). With this system you won't need to worry if you have enough power for the ERM-1s, or pretty much any speaker you may upgrade to later. Their shipping is inexpensive in the US. The XPA-5's shipping weight is 88lbs and shipping is only $25. The ERM-1s ship free (when 3 or more are purchased) and the ERD-1s are $10. I'm willing to bet you could talk them out of the fee for the ERD-1s and have everything shipped (US) for $25. I'm not sure how that changes shipping to Canada.

The XPA-5 also allows you to upgrade your preamp later at lesser cost than purchasing a new receiver and provides additional flexibility. Using your receiver as a preamp, you can use three channels for the front and still use the JVC to drive the rears. This will leave two channels for a separate two channel reference system, or to bi-amp capable main speakers. I've tried the latter with my Legacy Focus mains (using my receiver to drive the side and rear surrounds).

I have no association with Emotiva, I just feel the quality for price is just too good to pass up. The ERM-1s are being closed out, since the ERM-6.2 are almost identical in their specs, they decided not to carry both. I plan to purchase another ERM-1before they're gone to complete the front half for another surround system. Being not so "hardware savvy" I think this would be a very good audiophile quality starter system for you. You should check out their site before making a decision.

[kexodusc]

I looked on eBay and only saw the 60's for $1399 and they were v.4s.

In my experience it doesn't pay to have this kind of equipment shipped to Canada. By the time I pay for the currency exchange, shipping, insurance and duty, I might as well just buy them here. Also, not all equipment has North American warranties. I've often found items for less in the US but the warranty isn't honoured in Canada. I don't know if this is the case here, but these are all things to consider.
There should be no duty since they are built in Canada and NAFTA takes care of that, but with taxes etc, yeah, bad deal, usually cheaper to buy local.

I do like the idea of buying 2nd hand speakes though, big cost savings potential.

[Feanor]

There should be no duty since they are built in Canada and NAFTA takes care of that, but with taxes etc, yeah, bad deal, usually cheaper to buy local.

I do like the idea of buying 2nd hand speakes though, big cost savings potential.

Humm ... tarrifs. When I brought my Sonic Frontiers preamp back to Canada, I was told by the carrier, (FedEx or UPS, don't remeber), that they collect tarrif unless I had a NAFTA statement from the manufacturer. Of course in my case the manufacturer was effectively no longer in business. So I got dinged for tarrif, taxes, and -- of course -- brokerage.

[kexodusc]

Humm ... tarrifs. When I brought my Sonic Frontiers preamp back to Canada, I was told by the carrier, (FedEx or UPS, don't remeber), that they collect tarrif unless I had a NAFTA statement from the manufacturer. Of course in my case the manufacturer was effectively no longer in business. So I got dinged for tarrif, taxes, and -- of course -- brokerage.
I could be wrong, but if that's the case this is a very recent amendment.

Unfortunately, poor training and employee indifference to legislation results in a lot of mistakes in the customs brokerage business. My understanding from my former experience as a broker remains that unless you are a business importing the product for commercial use, all goods manufactured in North America are duty free for personal shipments/consumption. If your name was the "importer" on record, and not the name of a business, you should not have had to pay duty if the Sonic Frontiers were built in North America. Taxes, brokerage would still be fair game..

I order stuff from and ship to the US all the time, and haven't had to produce a NAFTA statement yet. If they have reason to suspect your stuff did not have a country of origin covered by NAFTA then they could request verification but that's so rare, especially on low-value shipments (below $1500 or so).

I'm fairly sure I'm still right about this because the administrative challenges it would present are enormous. Do you think every Canadian receiveing Christmas presents from their US relatives knows what the shipment is, and has a NAFTA certificate on hand?

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but you aren't alone when it comes to shipping companies gouging people.

I bought a single, $13 dollar HDMI cable from the US awhile back from ebay, and they ignorant SOB's at Fed Ex actually changed the value for duty to $75 because the broker "saw that price at Best Buy on a similar cable"...I tried to appeal to no avail...and they wouldn't accept my paypal transaction as proof of the value for duty.

Crooks I say. I didn't mind the duty (7%) as much as the $20 brokerage fee for a crappy job done....
Worst part is, I accepted delivery, and the bill showed up 2 weeks later. I will not use Fed Ex again if I have a choice.

[ForeverAutumn]

I tried to order some CDs from Amazon.com recently and they now include "import fees" with orders over a certain amount. I think it's $15. The amount of the fee is too high to just be PST/GST/HST. This is a recent change as they never used to do this. I've since stopped ordering from them.

Yet I ordered a Swarovski pendant from Germany, that was just over $100, and was only charged GST and PST.

But we're getting way off topic here.

[Hyfi]

But we're getting way off topic here.

Yeah, how are you going to demo these speakers?

[Feanor]

...

Unfortunately, poor training and employee indifference to legislation results in a lot of mistakes in the customs brokerage business. ...
...

Crooks I say. I didn't mind the duty (7%) as much as the $20 brokerage fee for a crappy job done....
Worst part is, I accepted delivery, and the bill showed up 2 weeks later. I will not use Fed Ex again if I have a choice.

Kex, I didn' say that the explanation I was given was legal requirement or even FedEx/UPS' actual policy. Yes, very likely it was employee ingorance but I had no practical way to get around it -- I wasn't going to leave my preamp sitting for weeks in their warehouse or otherwise jump through hoops for $60 or whatever it was.

But like I said FedEx and UPS are in the brokerage business as much as the shipping business which means it's in their interest to put the highest value on an item, charging duty and taxes accordingly, then charging brokerage accordingly, which is to say based on the inflated goverment levies they've charged.

[Mr Peabody]

Indeed, the JVC TV's I've experienced have been good in quality and performance. As far as I know their electronics hold up good, they're just built to meet a price point and offer value.

Fedex sucks. Interesting story for comparison even if I think so myself. I ordered two Xmas presents from Amazon for the same person at the same time on the same ticket, just so happens one goes UPS and the other goes Fedex. Ends up the house number in the address was off by one. Not a glitch for UPS, they delivered on time before Xmas, but Fedex the package never arrived, I had to track it down, I found the exact office it was in, it took a few phone calls and the package was eventually delivered mid January. If you read this just disregard it because we are talking amps here and there's no hijacking going on.

[02audionoob]

This past Christmas season, I had a mildly amusing FedEx experience. I received a package dropped off on the porch. It was addressed to the same house number but different street. So I picked up the package and walked down to that address to give the addressee the package. They weren't home, so I set it down on the porch. I then checked the label of a package they already had on the porch. Guess what? It was addressed to me. I picked it up and went home.

[ForeverAutumn]

Have ya listened to the G-Designs yet?

We're going to check out the GT-1's tonight. :)

I talked to the dealer about hearing the Paradigm Monitor 9s or 11s, but he told me that if I thought that the Monitor 7s were too bright then I likely wouldn't like the rest of the series as they all use the same tweeter. Plus, he said that the 11s are bigger than the Studio 100s. Those things must be monsters!

[Mr Peabody]

Did you do any listening over the weekend? Keep us posted on what you do.

[Luvin Da Blues]

We're going to check out the GT-1's tonight. :)

Make sure that you take your best recorded (lossless, no mp3s) and articulated material with ya. Dire Straits - Communique is always a nice choice.

[ForeverAutumn]

We spent just over an hour comparing the PSB GT-1s and the Paradigm Studio 60s. The Studio 60s are still in the lead. One of the recordings we took with us was a progressive rock band calle Ayreon. While it sounded great on the GT-1s, it literally gave me chills on the Studio 60s. The sales guy wrote down the info because he wants to buy the CD as a reference disk. :)

I told the sales guy that I want to sleep on it, but we're seriously considering ordering the Studio 60s on Thursday (our sales guy is off tomorrow).

[kexodusc]

We spent just over an hour comparing the PSB GT-1s and the Paradigm Studio 60s. The Studio 60s are still in the lead. One of the recordings we took with us was a progressive rock band calle Ayreon. While it sounded great on the GT-1s, it literally gave me chills on the Studio 60s. The sales guy wrote down the info because he wants to buy the CD as a reference disk. :)

I told the sales guy that I want to sleep on it, but we're seriously considering ordering the Studio 60s on Thursday (our sales guy is off tomorrow).

Wow, I envy you...you're going through the most fun part - the shopping.
What Ayreon CD did you use and is it any good?

What amp was used to drive the speakers?

[ForeverAutumn]

Wow, I envy you...you're going through the most fun part - the shopping.
What Ayreon CD did you use and is it any good?

What amp was used to drive the speakers?

The Ayreon CD is Actual Fantasy and if you like Swedish prog metal, it is excellent! I would use early Pain of Salvation as a reference point for something similar, but the Ayreon disk is more musically complex. Lots of layers of sound. Ayreon is one of those "bands" that are made in the studio. It's really as much about the production as the music and it could never be replicated live. You can hear samples here (http://www.ayreon.com/ayreon/ay_albums_af.html). Edward Reekers (formerly of Kayak) voice just makes me melt on this album. It is so deep and rich. The samples, obviously, won't do it justice but will give you a feel for the disk. It is an excellent quality recording as well.

We also listened to some Hem and John Mayer to get different sounds and feelings from the speakers.

I'm not sure what Amp was used. I think it was a NAD. We did listen to both speakers in the same room and using the same equipment though, so it was a fair comparison.

[Luvin Da Blues]

We spent just over an hour comparing the PSB GT-1s and the Paradigm Studio 60s. The Studio 60s are still in the lead. One of the recordings we took with us was a progressive rock band calle Ayreon. While it sounded great on the GT-1s, it literally gave me chills on the Studio 60s.


Admittedly, like most PSB speakers, they aren't the most exciting speaker out there. They just go about doing their job very well, without drawing attention to themselves. Not sure if NAD would be my first choice in pairing with the PSBs tho. Anywho, congrats on your choice of speakers and enjoy. :thumbsup:

[ForeverAutumn]

Yeah, how are you going to demo these speakers?

Hyfi, we checked out the B&W CM-7s and compared them to the Studio 60s last night. The shop was using a Rotel integrated amp and Rotel CD player. I don't know what models.

We've chosen the Studio 60's. The B&Ws sounded great loud, but really sounded flat at lower volumes. The Paradigms sounded great at all volumes. Since we don't always have the volume turned up loud, the Paradigm's are the better speakers for our use.

We've tested several different brands and models and we keep coming back to the Studio 60s. At this point we just can't imagine finding a speaker in our price range that we're going to like better, so we're going to go order the Studio 60s this afternoon.

We just have to decide on colour. :rolleyes5:

[kexodusc]

Hyfi, we checked out the B&W CM-7s and compared them to the Studio 60s last night. The shop was using a Rotel integrated amp and Rotel CD player. I don't know what models.

We've chosen the Studio 60's. The B&Ws sounded great loud, but really sounded flat at lower volumes. The Paradigms sounded great at all volumes. Since we don't always have the volume turned up loud, the Paradigm's are the better speakers for our use.

We've tested several different brands and models and we keep coming back to the Studio 60s. At this point we just can't imagine finding a speaker in our price range that we're going to like better, so we're going to go order the Studio 60s this afternoon.

We just have to decide on colour. :rolleyes5:

I'm sure you'll be happy rocking out with those bad boys.

Make sure you get your dealer to throw in enough speaker wire for you - at least 16 gauge, and preferably 14 or even 12 gauge. But check your receiver manual to see what size speaker wire it can accommodate.

[ForeverAutumn]

The speakers are a done deal! Wooohooooo! A set of Paradigm Studio 60s in Rosenut finish are on order and should arrive on Wednesday. I'm very excited! The dealer recommended 8 strand speaker wire with a combined gauge of 13. They will set up our wire with the banana clips on one side and just the wire put together on the other since our receiver has spring clips. I couldn't find the maximum wire size for our receiver in the manual or on the specs, but the sales guy told me to trust him that it will fit. So, I'm trusting him.

I couldn't get him to throw in the wire, but he was $100 cheaper on the speakers than anywhere else we priced. So if the other guys were going to throw in the wire (and I don't know if they were), they were taking it out of that extra $100.

This is the beginning of a very expensive friendship. :lol:

[Mr Peabody]

Congrads, enjoy the music.

[kexodusc]

The speakers are a done deal! Wooohooooo! A set of Paradigm Studio 60s in Rosenut finish are on order and should arrive on Wednesday. I'm very excited! The dealer recommended 8 strand speaker wire with a combined gauge of 13. They will set up our wire with the banana clips on one side and just the wire put together on the other since our receiver has spring clips. I couldn't find the maximum wire size for our receiver in the manual or on the specs, but the sales guy told me to trust him that it will fit. So, I'm trusting him.

I couldn't get him to throw in the wire, but he was $100 cheaper on the speakers than anywhere else we priced. So if the other guys were going to throw in the wire (and I don't know if they were), they were taking it out of that extra $100.

This is the beginning of a very expensive friendship. :lol:
Hey cool, my Studio 40's are the same colour.
Next up, a kick-ass amp! You must be the coolest wife in the world. Mine doesn't give a rat's ass about stereo gear and would never take as much interest in shopping as you did. She criticizes my speakers ideas, or when I use a stain she doesn't like, or pick ugly drivers but other than that, doesn't get involved. At least she doesn't use her wifely veto powers. Oh, but she loves blaring Ben Folds or Supertramp at obscene levels (which she wouldn't be able to do with those cute little cube speakers she sees in magazines).

Anyway, you have a very nice set of speakers that will keep you happy for years. I've had mine around 5 years or so, they still look new. FYI, when you're ready to upgrade in several years, you will have no trouble selling them for a good buck 2nd hand.

Enjoy your new toys.

[ForeverAutumn]

You must be the coolest wife in the world.

Well, I like to think so. :lol:

When it comes to audio, I'm the instigator. Hubby goes along for the ride because he's a pretty cool husband and he enjoys reaping the benefits. But all of our a/v equipment and 90% of our CD collection is stuff that I've purchased.

He's actually had the nerve to tell me I should sell off some of our CDs. :skep:


FYI, when you're ready to upgrade in several years, you will have no trouble selling them for a good buck 2nd hand.

Upgrade???? That might be when Hubby starts to use his veto powers. Honestly, I'm not sure that our room is big enough for an upgrade.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Honestly, I'm not sure that our room is big enough for an upgrade.

You heard it here folks. Apparently, size does matter. :nonod:

[Mr Peabody]

Kex, my wife is the same way, except she don't even mess with the system. What's maddening is she might like a song one day and down the road I'll put it on and she won't like it. I am lucky though she let's me pretty much do what I want with the audio and music. The only time she really vetoed anything was when I was intent on purchasing a pair of Electro-Voice 15" 2-way road monitors for speakers, the type with the carpeted cabinet. It seems that just wasn't proper living room decor. Today she probably wouldn't mind as the audio and music has been relegated to the lower level, which was mutually fine with me. But back then we just had one level, one living room and she just didn't seem to feel concert speakers belonged there. I'll never understand why but I guess it's a girl thing :) What do ya think FA, if the room was larger would you go for a couple concert monitors? The ones with the 15" woofer and horn for mids & highs, nice carpet cabinet. No jokes aside these things sounded great. Better than anything we had in the store at that time.

[ForeverAutumn]

What do ya think FA, if the room was larger would you go for a couple concert monitors? The ones with the 15" woofer and horn for mids & highs, nice carpet cabinet. No jokes aside these things sounded great. Better than anything we had in the store at that time.

I don't know, those carpet cabinets sound like something you'd find in the back of a van with a sign on the window saying, if this van is rockin' then don't come knockin'. :frown2:

[kexodusc]

I don't know, those carpet cabinets sound like something you'd find in the back of a van with a sign on the window saying, if this van is rockin' then don't come knockin'. :frown2:
Ha ha..I built a pair of high end, 2 way towers for my first speaker project several years ago. They are still the main speakers in my stereo rig down in the spare room I call my studio. My wife hates them. I guess "rental car gray" isn't an attractive color. Keep meaning to refinish those.

My wife only vetoed one HT thing ever. When we built our house last fall I made a dedicated HT room. My plan was to build an Infinite Baffle subwoofer array. If you don't know, this is where you sink the subwoofer into the wall rather than put them in speaker boxes. Unfortunately she won't let me cut four 18-inch circles into the front wall.




Yet.

[ForeverAutumn]

My wife only vetoed one HT thing ever. When we built our house last fall I made a dedicated HT room. My plan was to build an Infinite Baffle subwoofer array. If you don't know, this is where you sink the subwoofer into the wall rather than put them in speaker boxes. Unfortunately she won't let me cut four 18-inch circles into the front wall.




Yet.

Ah, it's only drywall. Tell her to lighten up. :D

[Feanor]

Kex, my wife is the same way, except she don't even mess with the system. What's maddening is she might like a song one day and down the road I'll put it on and she won't like it. I am lucky though she let's me pretty much do what I want with the audio and music. The only time she really vetoed anything was when I was intent on purchasing a pair of Electro-Voice 15" 2-way road monitors for speakers, the type with the carpeted cabinet. ....

No need for carpeted cabinets. How about these Tyler Accoustic Pro Dynamic models (http://www.tyleracoustics.com/pro_dynamics.html)?? These PD15's look pretty sweet and you can order optional matching grills from Tyler.
...

[Mr Peabody]

Four 18"'s, I'd like to hear that. I wonder what those infinite baffle sound like throughout the rest of the house.

I don't have room now for something like the Tyler, and they'd have to sound good enough to unseat my Dyn's. If I had another room for 2-channel it could be worth looking into because I'm sure my tube amps would appreciate a more efficient speaker and I might enjoy the extra SPL's.