Giving Magnepan another try

[nightflier]

I've had my share of misfortunes with Magnepan speakers, the last one being a completely defective pair. Since they have such a large following, I wanted to give them another try and purchased the least expensive ones: the MMG-Ws. This time I can honestly say: wow! For one thing, I never heard this before, so I have to conclude that the times that I did have other Maggies in my home, things were seriously wrong. In short, for $325, there's nothing that comes close. I know they are the bottom of the line, but for me, they are keepers. However, I do have some questions for those who have more experience with Maggies:

1. The mid-range is great, but the top end is very easy to reach. I'm pretty deaf, but I can easily hear where the speaker ends. Would a super-tweeter help?

2. Are the MC1s that much better? I can see that the top end would be much improved, but the bottom only adds 20Hz. For more than 3x the price, are they worth it?

3. Can I comfortably use a MMG-C in the front with MC1s on the L&R? Or would I then really need to step that up to the CC3 (also at 3x the price)?

4. What are my options for the rear channel(s)? My room is small and these speakers throw a huge sound stage, so two more MMG-Ws in addition to the rears would really be overkill. Would I be able to use a single MMG-C or am I blaspheming with that suggestion?

5. Due to circumstances, the only multi-channel amp I now have available to me is a 125/180W one. Frankly it can't do the job and peters out with loud effects. Someone suggested the Rotel RMB-1076/1077 since it can dip down to 2 ohms. I'm partial to Class-D and have had several so I don't have doubts about the technology, but it's only a 100/200 watt amp. Has anyone used these amps with Maggies and had good results?


I know the higher-end Maggies have substantially greater range, but they are also more expensive, larger, and as I've found out, very heavy too, which makes them a pain to ship. So I really want to stay with the wall hanging speakers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[nightflier]

No input? Maybe I should have posted this in General Audio....

[GMichael]

Hey NF,

I toyed with getting a system of Maggy's a while back. D'm nice sounding speakers IMO.
Do you need to have wall mounting speakers? If not, I'd go with a pair of the MMG or MG12 floor standers. These would serve you well for music as well as HT. IMO getting above 16kHz is a non-issue for the center and surounds. I'd go with a MMG-C and pair of MMG-W. This is what I had planned for quite a while. The cost of a new amp is what had me switch plans. The new Emotiva amps seem to have plenty-o-pep for way lesss than what was available when I was shopping. I'm sure their are others that would be better, but for a price. Then again, if price is no issue, then maybe the MC1's are in order.


MMG 2-way Quasi Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 50-24 kHz 86 dB 4 Ohm 14.5 x 48 x 1.25
MMG W Planar - Magnetic 100-16 kHz 88 dB 5 Ohm 10 x 38 x 1
MMG C Planar - Magnetic 100-16 kHz 88 dB 5 Ohm 36 x 9 x 5.5
MC1 2-way Quasi Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 80-24 kHz 86 dB 4 Ohm 10.25 x 46 x 1
CC3 2-way Quasi Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 80-20 kHz 85 dB 4 Ohm 35 x 10.5 x 8
MG12 2-way Quasi Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 45-22 kHz 86 dB 4 Ohm 17 x 51 x 1.5
MG 1.6 2-way Quasi Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 40-22 kHz 86 dB 4 Ohm 19 x 65 x 2
MG 3.6 3-way True Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 34-40 kHz 85 dB 4 Ohm 24 x 71 x 1.625
MG 20.1 3-way True Ribbon Planar - Magnetic 25-40 kHz 85 dB 4 Ohm 29 x 79 x 2.062

[luvtolisten]

Here is a website which may help you with the differences between models:

http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag14.html

Here are some mods for the MMG's (This one takes a little longer to load):

http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html


http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/index.html

Congratulations on your purchase. I have never owned, but have been interested in the MMG's. Did you buy them online? (you got a good deal, Magnepan direct wants $550 for them). The only criticism I've heard, and not just this model, is that it has a very narrow "sweet spot", about 2 ft. Is that truth or myth?

[Feanor]

....

Congratulations on your purchase. I have never owned, but have been interested in the MMG's. Did you buy them online (you got a good deal, Magnepan direct wants $550 for them). The only criticism I've heard, and not just this model, is that it has a very narrow "sweet spot", about 2 ft. Is that truth or myth?

True.

[jrhymeammo]

My experience is very limited but Class-D may not reveal what Maggies are capable of. 3.6R with Naim components sounded very good to my ears, if that means anything to ya.

Good luck with your experience. I'll give panels another try once day, and hope to experience half of your exhilaration.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Any one try or hear what happens when Maggies are driven by tubes?

[blackraven]

I auditioned the Van Alstines FET Valve Hybrid tube amp and preamp in my home with my 1.6's and the bass really came alive. They sounded warm and liquid. Many people use VA tube gear with Magnepans on the VA forum. I'm using a hybrid tube preamp and DAC.

Nightflier, if you can swing it, go for the MG12's. They are much better than the MMG's and approach the 1.6's in sound.

[nightflier]

luvtolisten, I actually purchased two off-white colored MMGs for $250 from a local seller, which I think was a great deal. I am now on the lookout for a MMG-C to match these for the front, but was thinking that I might be better off putting the MMG-Ws in the back instead. That way I could use something larger for the fronts.

The MMG-Ws as L&R fronts are very good. Yes, I'm giving up anything above 16 kHz and everything below 100Hz and that's a problem I'm struggling with. As a point of reference, I'm A/Bing them against my Vienna Weberns (also on-walls), and while the Maggies have those shortcomings their mid-range, particularly with voices and chamber music, is astoundingly good if not better.

As far as sweet spot, that can be adjusted by changing the angle on the wall, but yes, w/o a center channel, the sweet spot is really just a few feet. I can even tell when I just move my head to the left and to the right.

jrhymeammo, my experience with Naim is that most of their gear is way under-powered. Somehow I don't think that would be a good match for 3.6's, or does that include a pair of superchargers in between?

Mr.P., I was using a tube preamp (Odyssey Candela) when I tested the Maggies with a class-D amp, and that sounded very good. And I don't even think I heard that combination to its full potential since I had to use XLR-to-RCA adapters. I will also say that this sounded better than the Parasound P7 preamp (which may not be a completely fair assesment since it's having RCA cross-talk problems which could be indicative of other issues). It also sounded considerably better than my Outlaw 970 pre/pro although that one is also having problems, albeit only on the digital inputs, I think.

I should really stick to gear I know works....

____________________

Anyhow, what I've been struggling with is improving the sound in my surround sound room to perhaps in the future get rid of the 2-channel system altogether. I have a large collection of SACDs and I really have not enjoyed their full potential. Also, until these Maggies arrived, I had not found a speaker that I liked more than the Weberns. All my previous attempts with Magnepan were filled with problems, some of them quite costly ones, so I'm now taking things one step at a time.

The MMG-W purchase was more of a whim/impulse buy. They were inexpensive, local (so no shipping), and a heck of a lot smaller than even the MMGs. Size is a big problem for me as I'm working with a small room with lots of stuff in it (and that's not likely to change any time soon). So if I do go for floor-standing Maggies, they'll have to be as narrow as possible. Several people recommended the MG12, but unless I can also mount those to the wall, that's going to be a problem. At 17 inches wide, they are large for me. Hmmm, maybe I can mount them to the wall.....

The other problem I'm trying to deal with is heat & energy consumption. Here in SoCal, that's particularly important, so digital amps are kind of a necessity for me. That little Rotel RMB-1077 is small, light, and runs cool, but I'm worried it won't have the power to drive the Maggies. My current amp, the Outlaw 7125 just doesn't cut it. I had the volume cranked to 80% and it sounded like it wanted to tap out. In contrast, my Spectron amp has no such issues, but it's 2-channel and XLR-only. Ironically, just before I got the Maggies, I had to return a PS Audio multi-channel amp that would have been perfect.

Aaarrrggghhh. Sometimes I think this hobby is making me loose my hair faster than my kids are....

[luvtolisten]

Feanor, thanks for the quick response!
Nightflier, thanks for the correction on the Magnepan model# and info on your experience with them. I'd be interested in your final results and what you decide as a set up. Sorry about your equipment issues, when it rains it pours I guess. I wish I could say "it keeps you young" but like kids, it adds a few years. and gray hairs:)

[Mr Peabody]

I'd be interested in knowing what set up gave you the impression Naim is under powered. I've never thought that at all. I've mostly heard separates though and our dealer quit carrying them before the Nait stuff took off. But this is the first time I've heard any one even say this about Naim.

[blackraven]

Pairing those small Maggies with a good non-ported sub will give you some really good sound.

[nightflier]

Non-ported is the way I now roll: SVS PB12+, baby.

I traded down from a pair of 16-46 cylinders because I needed to downsize - it was very sad day when I shipped those off....

Mr.P., Maybe I only have experience with the lower end of Naim, but everything I've ever had was nearly flea-watt powered and not very sub-4Ohm-friendly. Granted I never powered Maggies with anything Naim, but most full-range speakers I did try were too much for the little Naims. What amp were you suggesting for the job?

[jrhymeammo]

Naim had plenty of juice to drive 3.6R so it would work just fine for all Magnepan, maybe except for 20 series.
Unfortunately, I cannot recall the model#, but I can tell you amps were enclosed in those typical slim Naim cases.

I can understand what you hear from Naim, since it never sounded powerful to my ears. It almost sounds a bit lacking to my preference. But Naim with 3.6R did not sound underpowered. I can understand how you think of Naim though.

As everyone repeats, Magnepan loves current. My 2nd Tube integrated sounded fairly sweet for small emsemble music, but as soon as music become more complex at higher volume, the amp stated choking and midrange became lifeless. I'm positive Mr. P's CJ would work better, but they wouldnt be able to keep up with Maggies.

When I told the dealerI had planned on matching 1.6QR with PS Audio Class-D amp, he was extremely concerned. The reason being, he used to carry Rotel's digital amps and most of Maggie owners had returned or expressed dissatisfaction of RMB amps.
For that reason, he had stopped carrying Rotel Class-D amps at his stores.
Just somem for you to consider. Remember, these are his words not mine.

[blackraven]

I would give the Emotiva amps a try. They have plenty of power and current. They should do really well with the Maggies. I'm surprised that your Outlaw amp ran out of gas then again, I did shut down my Adcom HTR with 260wpc at 4ohms when playing some complex music very loud one time. But I was driving the 1.6's.

[Mr Peabody]

Too bad Elapsed isn't lurking around. I don't know Naim well enough to recommend anything, they just seemed pretty hardy driving Dyn's and their own speakers. Dyns like current but actually their impedance is relatively stable. Maybe Maggies are the real test. Our defunct Maggie dealer used to drive them with Levinson and lesser systems with Adcom.

I think you could get away with some Krell 250 watt monoblocks. I heard them drive the Evidence to concert level SPL and remain crystal clear. :)

I hate to make generalizations but I've heard the claim that class D can't drive difficult loads way more than once. Then again, my Linn drives 5 Dynaudio and hasn't shut down or distorted, well, yet again, I don't know how much difference it makes but Linn calls theirs class V. The Onkyo 9555 got some criticism for not being able to drive difficult loads but I don't see how an amp that good at $400.00 could be criticized at all.

You could try the ARC 150x2 digital amp. It has some weight to it for a digital amp. I wish when I had it to play with I would have tried a different amp to see what difference it would have made in sound. I don't know how it does at low impedance either.

[blackraven]

How about a pair of Musical Fidelity's 550K at 750wpc at 4ohms. Audio Advisor has demo's on sale for $1K.

[Feanor]

'Flier, I'm going to (once again) recomment a pair of Monarchy SM-70 Pros to drive the MMG. I'm trying to remember who had a pair of these (besides me): was it you? I can't imagine that you'd be disappointed driving the Maggie fronts with these.

But the idea of using Maggies in an M/C setup bothers me. It's indeed true that the Maggies have a narrow sweet spot, so unless you're the only listener I don't seem them working.

One thought is intriging, though, for HT use. For a long time various people recommend diapole speakers for the surround speakers. This is exactly what the Maggies are of course. A pair of smaller Maggies sitting either side of the listener, edge-on, might just work quite well. However this is not the recommend set up for SACD where all speakers are supposed to be directed at the listener.

[E-Stat]

'Flier, I'm going to (once again) recomment a pair of Monarchy SM-70 Pros to drive the MMG.
Those are probably some sweet sounding amps. Simple topography, well built with a big power supply designed to drive challenging loads. For me, that's a formula for success. Those first few watts really make the biggest difference. They are also "passive friendly" with their 1 volt sensitivity and 100k input impedance.

rw

[Feanor]

Those are probably some sweet sounding amps. Simple topography, well built with a big power supply designed to drive challenging loads. For me, that's a formula for success. Those first few watts really make the biggest difference. They are also "passive friendly" with their 1 volt sensitivity and 100k input impedance.

rw

All true. The SM-70 Pro is a high bias, zero global feedback design, with 60,000 uF per side. For quite a while I drove them with an Adcom GFP750 in passive mode by way of 6' XLF cables; that work flawlessly.

[JoeE SP9]

Feanor, what do you think of the GFP-750? I have a chance to get one cheap. I know it's Adcom's best ever preamp especially in passive mode. I run long cables from my preamp (20Ft) would that be an issue in passive mode?

[JoeE SP9]

Any one try or hear what happens when Maggies are driven by tubes?

I used to use an ARC SP-3AMKII and ARC D-51 power amp with the first planars I ever bought. They made those MG-1's sound damn good! Of course more power would have been better. Within the power limits the sound was wonderful.

[Feanor]

Feanor, what do you think of the GFP-750? I have a chance to get one cheap. I know it's Adcom's best ever preamp especially in passive mode. I run long cables from my preamp (20Ft) would that be an issue in passive mode?

Pretty decent in passive mode. I find active mode just a bit sharp, solid statish if you will.

From what I know, you can tolerate a longer run if you're source has a relatively low output impedance and your target has a high input impedance. I've heard it said that the latter ought to be at least 10x former, but that 100x is better. A higher number permits longer runs I presume.

[DAVEBUCK]

Love the Maggies. BUT they love lots of POWER. 200W @4ohms minumum! thats the key. I am in the process of upgrading to the MC-12 or 1.6R. I am looking at the odyssey or parasound 5250 amp. probably in the 250W -300W. A nice HSU sub or sunfire sub helps as well!

[Mr Peabody]

The 750 may be Adcom's best but I'd be surprised if you found it better than the SP9.

[nightflier]

'Flier, I'm going to (once again) recomment a pair of Monarchy SM-70 Pros to drive the MMG. I'm trying to remember who had a pair of these (besides me): was it you? I can't imagine that you'd be disappointed driving the Maggie fronts with these.

But the idea of using Maggies in an M/C setup bothers me. It's indeed true that the Maggies have a narrow sweet spot, so unless you're the only listener I don't seem them working.

One thought is intriging, though, for HT use. For a long time various people recommend diapole speakers for the surround speakers. This is exactly what the Maggies are of course. A pair of smaller Maggies sitting either side of the listener, edge-on, might just work quite well. However this is not the recommend set up for SACD where all speakers are supposed to be directed at the listener.

I had the SM70 Pros for a few months but I sold them for two reasons: they run extremely hot (I used them extensively, especially trying to hammer out the issues with the MMGs). But heat is a big issue for me because I'm working with a smallish room and have three full systems set up in it (yes, I know, that doesn't make me very popular with the wife). The other reason was that they are unwieldy. They are too large to fit on one shelf and I dropped one and bent the back fin, not to mention that I broke the tip of my finger in the process - the kind of pain that will buckle your knees, trust me. Yes, I know they sounded wonderful but that was the last straw; I would have shot-putted that brick out the window if I wasn't so busy cursing.... Anyhow, you would think that Monarchy could have at least put handles on the back or made them 1" narrower and a 1" taller (which, if my math is correct, would still have given the fins more surface area, btw). I should also mention that my $600 Spectron amp still ate them for lunch. So they're gone & good riddance. No offense meant, Feanor, but when your gear injures you, that may be a sign to move on to something else.

On a more positive note, a friend of mine put me in touch with a guy in Arizona who's also into digital amps (for the same reasons I am, imagine that). Anyhow, he's going to send me an RMB-1077 in exchange for my PS Audio HCA-2. It's just a loan, but we'll see what's what when it arrives. Jrhymeammo, your dealer's comments are not reassuring. Hopefully he's just referring to the Rotel amps paired with larger Maggies. If I have to, I'll just power the center and rears with a Rotel and use the Spectron for the L&R. I know for a fact that it has no issues driving anything, although to be frank, I haven't really driven a working pair of Maggies with it. John Ulrick said that digital will work fine, although he also said that not all class-d amps are created equal, of course. I will be doing some tests with the Spectron and the MMG-Ws this weekend so I'll know more on Monday.

Funny story. Someone emailed and asked why I would want to "downgrade" from my Viennas to the "gimmicky" Maggies. He had other negative things to say about Maggies, so I figured he's probably had a bad pair, too, and I kind of felt obligated to correct a few assumptions, some of which I once shared. He's local, so I invited him over for a listen. He emailed back and said he didn't want to be tricked into believing something that wasn't real and said only hearing something on his own system would make him believe anything. I asked him what kind of amp he has and he said a Threshold T800 driving Vandersteen speakers. I looked it up: the amp can do 200/400W. I said no problem, I'll bring over the Maggies and we'll have a listen. Then he emailed back and said he didn't want to be tricked into upgrading anything. Maybe I was a little too forward in inviting myself over, but you gota wonder about some people....

Long-story short, yes, if the amps can handle it, I'm replacing the Viennas with Maggies. I don't have a clear thought on the L&R yet. I may start with the MC1s and if that doesn't do it, I'll move on up starting with the MG12's. I have about $3K to spend, but that also is for a new pre (probably the McCormack MAP-1). If the Rotel can't handle even the MMG-Ws, then I'm going to try something used from Spectron, PS Audio or possibly NuForce's MC amp. Unfortunately, there really aren't many other options out there for Class-D.

[Feanor]

I had the SM70 Pros for a few months but I sold them for two reasons: they run extremely hot (I used them extensively, especially trying to hammer out the issues with the MMGs). ... I dropped one and bent the back fin, not to mention that I broke the tip of my finger in the process - the kind of pain that will buckle your knees, trust me. ... I should also mention that my $600 Spectron amp still ate them for lunch. So they're gone & good riddance. No offense meant, Feanor, but when your gear injures you, that may be a sign to move on to something else.

...

No offense taken!!

I'm reminded now of your ealier comments. The Spectron is a class D amp I'd really like to hear myself. By consensus of TAS pundits a year or so ago, it was the best class D. At $600 you got a mind-numbing deal even for an older model -- you shouldn't imply that this somehow relates to the current price: the Muscian III Mk2 retails for $7200.

My Monarchys run warm but not hot driving my MG 1.6. Hummm ... since your room is not large, I surmise that you listen a lot louder than I do. The current Spectron puts out 800 wpc into 4 ohms which would tend to favor it at higher levels of over the 120 wpc Monarchy.

[JoeE SP9]

The 750 may be Adcom's best but I'd be surprised if you found it better than the SP9.

I've been told that in passive mode the Adcom is up there with the best. I've got a chance to get one cheap. The only replacement for my SP-9 would be a better ARC Maybe an SP-10 or 11.

[E-Stat]

I've been told that in passive mode the Adcom is up there with the best. I've got a chance to get one cheap. The only replacement for my SP-9 would be a better ARC Maybe an SP-10 or 11.
For high level sources, ever tried a set of attenuators instead? Don't get me wrong, I really like my SP-9MKIII - but its not perfect. For the CD source, I don't use it at all. My DIY attenuator box has higher resolution and better separation (see the Stereophile test) resulting in a wider soundstage. I stumbled upon that discovery years ago when I built an inexpensive attenuator box for the office system. Just for grins, I put it in the main system. I was floored when I heard the $18 Radio Shack attenuator box (at half the price of one ARC knob) easily better the SP-9 for the CD source. On the other hand, the 9 works great for vinyl where the gain is needed and the separation issue is largely limited by the cartridge anyway. I later built a higher quality unit using DACT stepped attenuators, JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors in a Par-Metal aluminum case that looks like a Levinson JC-2. It means I have to change cables when switching sources, but I think that is well worth the effort.

Similarly, I don't use a line stage in the vintage garage system either. The Pioneer tuner, Bellari phono preamp and Manley DAC each have gain controls and drive the amp directly.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Uh..., E-stat, where's the remote? :)

[E-Stat]

Uh..., E-stat, where's the remote? :)
Remote? We don't need no steenkin' remote in the man caves! Those are only found in the HT in the den for wifey! :)

rw

[JoeE SP9]

For high level sources, ever tried a set of attenuators instead? Don't get me wrong, I really like my SP-9MKIII - but its not perfect. For the CD source, I don't use it at all. My DIY attenuator box has higher resolution and better separation (see the Stereophile test) resulting in a wider soundstage. I stumbled upon that discovery years ago when I built an inexpensive attenuator box for the office system. Just for grins, I put it in the main system. I was floored when I heard the $18 Radio Shack attenuator box (at half the price of one ARC knob) easily better the SP-9 for the CD source. On the other hand, the 9 works great for vinyl where the gain is needed and the separation issue is largely limited by the cartridge anyway. I later built a higher quality unit using DACT stepped attenuators, JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors in a Par-Metal aluminum case that looks like a Levinson JC-2. It means I have to change cables when switching sources, but I think that is well worth the effort.

Similarly, I don't use a line stage in the vintage garage system either. The Pioneer tuner, Bellari phono preamp and Manley DAC each have gain controls and drive the amp directly.

rw
From time to time I've thought about building a passive attenuator using a Shallcross ladder attenuator. What has stopped me is that I use long cables (20Ft) from my preamp to my power amps. Spending close to $500 for a something only to find that it's unusable is something I'd rather not do. Does anyone have any input on long cables and passive attenuators? How about long cables and transformer attenuators? I hear some think transformer attenuators are better than switched.
However, I'm open to almost anything. The Par-Metal case sounds interesting. I checked the web site. My interest is piqued. Where can I get some really nice knobs? I would need some holes drilled. Does Par-Metal do that?
Maybe it's time to build my own ultimate passive preamp. My financial situation is loosening up and I'll shortly have a great deal more discretionary income than I've had recently. I'm a vinyl junkie. What funding I've had went to new vinyl. A few CD's managed to sneak in there also.
No! I'll not be going to Goodwins for the Apogee Mini Grands they have right now. I will be on the lookout for a pair of Studio Grands.

[Mr Peabody]

JoeE don't need a remote, he has his preamp in his lap... :) I'd like to try an Adcom 750 with my 5500 amp. I heard one once in a store and compared to the 450 preamp couldn't tell much difference. But the sales person didn't mention it having passive and active, nor did he say which was on. All I knew is I wasn't going to pay the difference in cost for no noticeable improvement. With those who have had the 750 claim it's good, I've always wanted to try one again to see if that first impression was correct or the demo was some how skewed.

[JoeE SP9]

I've gotten used to having no remote for my preamp. It's only 2 steps away. Besides, I need the exercise.:D
The 750 is a John Curl Design. Maybe an extended audition would be in order. It has a remote. So, I would get even less exercise.

[E-Stat]

What has stopped me is that I use long cables (20Ft) from my preamp to my power amps. Spending close to $500 for a something only to find that it's unusable is something I'd rather not do.
Agreed. If you have basic soldering skills, you can make one for under twenty bucks. I can even provide detailed instructions since an inmate over at AA had asked me to do that years ago. Here's what it looks like:

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/se1.jpg



Does anyone have any input on long cables and passive attenuators? How about long cables and transformer attenuators? I hear some think transformer attenuators are better than switched.
Total capacitance is the rub with attenuators which requires short and/or very low cap cables. I use 2 meter runs of JPS Labs Superconductor+ which has a total of 160uF. Twenty feet of Bluejeans Cable LC-1 only runs 244 uF. Using a DACT supplied spreadsheet calculator, there shouldn't be any audible HF rolloff with that.


The Par-Metal case sounds interesting. I checked the web site. My interest is piqued. Where can I get some really nice knobs? I would need some holes drilled. Does Par-Metal do that?
I used some ARC knobs. I'm sure Par-Metals would drill the holes for you, but it really wasn't a big deal. Here is the updated version:

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/se2.jpg

rw

[JoeE SP9]

Thanks for the info E-Stat. I don't think there will be any problem with soldering. I applied the POOGE treatment to my Haflers years ago and my MK-III's have only the transformers in common with their namesakes. All the work was done by yours truly.

Do you have any experience with using transformers as attenuators?

[hermanv]

Some generic opinions:

Passive pre amps are very impedance sensitive, mine is driven by a Mark Levinson 360S. Mark Levinson claims an output impedance of 6 Ohms, so I designed my passive to average 3 KOhms instead of the usual 10K.

I also audition only low capacitance cables (currently running Cardas Golden Presence).

According to a very long discussion on the John Curl blowtorch DIY thread, a switched passive is much better than variable POT attenuator until you spend hundred$ for POTS.

The Placette gets good reviews, uses first class parts and with the remote allows the pre to power amp cable to be arbitrarily short.

I've never heard them, but transformer passives should do well with long cables. They have other issues making it all but impossible to make them inexpensive.

Maggies and other planar speakers seem to do best with very low amplifier source impedance (no built in dynamic damping in the driver cones?) So, either very high power tube or reasonable power solid state. Most solid state switching amps have high damping factors, maybe even higher than equivalent power conventional transistor amps. So planar bass will sound quite good with a competent switcher

[nightflier]

Hermanv, thanks for bringing this thread back to the original topic: Magnepans.

[hermanv]

I have mixed feelings on the Maggies. In general I like planar, but they need room.

Maggies are reportedly more sensitive to speaker cables than most speakers and are placement critical.

A little research on the web and you will find a number of crossover component DIY upgrades, especially the film capacitors. There is broad agreement that the upgrade is a good idea.

There is also broad agreement that they like power, I suspect the damping factor I mentioned in my previous post.

When upgraded, driven by the right electronics and correctly placed in a room, they are supposed to be one of the all time bargains in sound versus cost.

[nightflier]

Well the Rotel RMB-1077 is on its way. Should be here in a few days. Very curious to hear how it handles the MMG-Ws.

So far the absolute best combination I have tried is the Plinius CD-LAD paired with the Spectron amp. Even my PS Audio amps can't quite match that. And I'm just working with the MMG-Ws at a measly 100-16K Hz. and a sub (which by the way is a pain to integrate properly - 'been fiddling with it all weekend). So far these are my observations:

- I really would need two subs. One for deep bass and another for filling in the bass between 30Hz and 100 Hz. I'm going to talk to Hsu about their mid-bass module (http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12.html) which is supposed to do just that. Of course at $500, that's a steep price to pay for what is essentially a weaker sub. It's also going to be a chore getting both subs integrated properly, but maybe with that price tag, Hsu will be able to offer up some assistance. They are also local, so I can just drive up the freeway and bug them with my questions.

- A better pre-pro is in order. I've been a fan-boy for Outlaw since they came out with the ICBM, but I'm really concerned that they are a bit over their heads in this area. I have a line on a used but pristine McCormack MAP-1 for $1200. It's local (well sort of) and with all the positive reviews it's been getting, that may just be the ticket. I know Outlaw and Emotiva will beat the MAP-1 on features & price, but I really am hoping for some noticeable improvement in sound when I audition it.

- While I know that the sweet spot is small with the Maggies, I'm now really curious to see what it would be like with a center channel. I tried the MMG-Ws with my current center channel (not Magnepan), and while the sound was noticeably different, the dispersion allowed me to sit pretty far off center w/o too much loss. I imagine that Magnepan's MMG-C, with its curved panel would be equally good (and of course, mesh much better with the L&R.

- Heat dissipation is still a huge issue. This weekend the temperatures were way up and sitting in my man-cave in the afternoon was a sticky endeavor. The pre/pro is a little toaster, the SS amp equally so, and even the DVD player is too warm to touch (I'm temporarily using one of those trendy super-thin players, the HK DVD-48 - what a piece of sh..). Anyhow, that brings up another question. My current choice for a BR player is the Oppo BDP-83. Does anyone know if that sucker runs very hot? I don't suppose anyone has a McCormack MAP-1 out there they can tell me about?

***********************************

hermanv, the MMG series have captive speaker wire, so changing that out is probably not an option. If I do spring for a larger pair, I'll definitely explore that. I'd be very curious to hear how something like the Mapleshade wire would do compared to my garden-hose-sized wire - that's still something I'm interested in trying out. Upgrading cross-overs is probably outside my comfort level, especially on the more expensive speakers - I would hate to screw that up.

[hermanv]

<snip>
hermanv, the MMG series have captive speaker wire, so changing that out is probably not an option. If I do spring for a larger pair, I'll definitely explore that. I'd be very curious to hear how something like the Mapleshade wire would do compared to my garden-hose-sized wire - that's still something I'm interested in trying out. Upgrading cross-overs is probably outside my comfort level, especially on the more expensive speakers - I would hate to screw that up.I am not familiar with that model. Since Magnapan has been doing this for many years, they may well have read the cable critique. If so, it would certainly be no surprise if they found a good cable match and then made it integral or captive.

I can easily sympathize about a reluctance to change capacitors. There is a correlation between those capacitors most people think sound better and physical size, the better ones can be quite big and may not fit into he space allocated by the factory. If the speakers are new, who wants to jury rig a carbuncle on your new expensive toys?

Besides if the speakers are new the crossover is likely to need a hundred hours of break in. For normal listening, this would take months. And if they are a newer design, Magnapan may well have made a capacitor design change.

In any event, congratulations, all reviews and forum posts say you have bought a fine product.

[Mr Peabody]

The MAP-1 for $1200.00 is a deal. If you try Maple Shade be sure to post a review. I've always wondered if they lived up to what they wrote about them. They look a bit thin.

Why so hot, ever hear of AC? Get you some of those triple pain gas filled windows. I thought you would have moved into one of those under ground homes by now since you are our leading Green guy :)

[nightflier]

Why so hot, ever hear of AC? Get you some of those triple pain gas filled windows. I thought you would have moved into one of those under ground homes by now since you are our leading Green guy :)

I do have aircon, but that room is furthest from the AC unit, and gets the least. As far as going green, I've got double-pane windows, a heavy curtain (don't laugh, it makes a big difference), a whole-house fan, but it's not enough. Ceiling fans are next on the agenda, as soon as I get the money.


The MAP-1 for $1200.00 is a deal.

It comes without the remote, which I was not originally aware of, so that's a bit of a bother. McCormack's website is pathetic, to say the least and nobody there seems to want to answer the phone or email - I'm beginning to have doubts on that one. Anyhow, I'm going to see if I can get a lower price because of all this.


If you try Maple Shade be sure to post a review. I've always wondered if they lived up to what they wrote about them. They look a bit thin.

Yes they do, and it's what's always kept me skeptical. But I need to simplify things and a thiner wire would be a whole lot more manageable in the spaghetti soup I'm brewing behind my gear.

Hermanv, if there's one thing Magnepan can be criticized for it's the slow pace of change in their designs. Yes, they have a few models every now and then, but the technology has not changed much and they tend to stick to older connectors, wires, and capacitors a lot longer than they should.

I also can't seem to get a response from Magnepan. I know they're supposed to be phone-friendly, but that has not been my experience. At the risk of sounding suicidal about it: all I wanted was a center channel!

[Mr Peabody]

There is hope for the Maple Shade, my Siltech aren't all that thick and the bass response is excellent.

Spearitsound has the MAP-1 and matching 5-channel amp for $4490.00 the pair new and that may include shipping. Jack Tozzi will answer your McCormack questions. His side kick that sometimes helps answer email isn't very informative but Jack usually is and he isn't afraid to tell it straight. Of course, the Rotel might already be there and the McCormack probably throws some heat. They may shoot you a deal on just the MAP1 though.

My sub is out and I have some other expenses to deal with so if you are even remotely interested in my Primare PM me an offer. It does have video but the analog is very good. In fact, going to Marantz was a step down in sound quality. Looking back if I knew then what I know now I wish I had bought a better BD player with decoding and bass management and stuck with the 31.7's analog input. I have two remotes :)

[nightflier]

Mr. P, that Primare is still in the back of my mind, but I'm hunting down the McCormack for an in-home audition first. One thing I don't like about the McCormack is that it's only 5.1 while the Parasound was 7.1, but I'm pretty sure they'll be very different in sound quality, too. In any case, the McCormack better impress me and I'm certainly not going to buy it w/o first hearing it.

On another note, the Rotel arrived last night. I haven't had a chance to fire it up, but I did get a chance to look inside (there was a small piece of plastic rolling around inside, so I opened it up). The first thing that struck me was that it is supposed to be 7-channel but it has 5 smaller isolated circuit boards, and two larger ones, so I can only guess that the two larger ones are for the front L&Rs. This doesn't jive completely with what is stated in the manual where it says that the 7 channels are identical.

I'm first going to use it as a 2-channel amp in place of my Spectron. I can't do a direct A/B comparison because I have no easy way to switch it, but I'll be taking notes. Once I am comfortable that it can handle the MMG-Ws adequately, I'll put it in the A/V rack and see how it handles a full-length film. My contact who sent the amp says that while it doesn't get very hot, it will get "warm to the touch" so I'll be checking for that.

If it does run too warm, then I'm going to go solid state and buy a 3-channel Odyssey Stratos for the rear channels and use the Spectron for the fronts. It can do 150/300/600 watts, theoretically, wich should be plenty. Klaus says that his amp has enough power reserves that it should run cool even running Maggies. I'm not so sure I believe that, but I've had great luck with Odyssey, so that is becoming a very real alternative. It's only $1550 and I'll try to negociate a 12v trigger into the deal, if I go that route. I have a Parasound SCAMP I can use, but I'd rather avoid the extra wiring.

Another question: someone on Audiogon is asking $925obo for a pair of Magnepan MG12s. Good deal or should I go up to the 1.6s? The 12s are a scosh smaller than the latter and the specs are about the same, but do they sound very different?

[Mr Peabody]

Spearitsound will allow some time for return if not happy, although not as generous as other online retailers. You might check, I think www.amusicdirect.com either picked up McCormack or some pieces. Either way you aren't obligated if you wanted to shoot Jack some questions.

[jrhymeammo]

Another question: someone on Audiogon is asking $925obo for a pair of Magnepan MG12s. Good deal or should I go up to the 1.6s? The 12s are a scosh smaller than the latter and the specs are about the same, but do they sound very different?

12s and 1.6s sound exactly the same. 12 just puts out slightly smaller sound. If I was in your possible, I would look for a pair of 10.1QR. Modification work on the corssover looks extermely accessible.

[nightflier]

10.1qr? Those are not listed on the website. Are they much older?

Speaking of the MMG-Ws, for sh*ts-n-giggles I pushed them as hard as they would go last night. And yes, they do have their limit and will start to drop off very fast once you reach it. I've never heard that on Maggies and I would probably want to go louder than we did last night, so maybe these should be relegated to rear duty after all.

[Geoffcin]

Hi Nightflier, I own a system like your looking to make, so perhaps I can give you some of my findings.



1. The mid-range is great, but the top end is very easy to reach. I'm pretty deaf, but I can easily hear where the speaker ends. Would a super-tweeter help?


I've never added a super tweeter to any speaker, so on that account I'm in the dark. Perhaps yes?



2. Are the MC1s that much better? I can see that the top end would be much improved, but the bottom only adds 20Hz. For more than 3x the price, are they worth it?


The short answer is yes. The MC1's quasi-ribbon tweeter is so good that in some respects it's BETTER than the tweeter in my 3.6's on SOME program material. The MC1's tweeter is always sweet, where the 3.6's true ribbon can get a bit forward with poorly recorded material. (like most HT stuff!)



3. Can I comfortably use a MMG-C in the front with MC1s on the L&R? Or would I then really need to step that up to the CC3 (also at 3x the price)?


I would say ABSOLUTELY, however the CC3 will BLOW the MMG-C away on both resolution in the upper treble, and total output. Worth the upgrade eventually.




4. What are my options for the rear channel(s)? My room is small and these speakers throw a huge sound stage, so two more MMG-Ws in addition to the rears would really be overkill. Would I be able to use a single MMG-C or am I blaspheming with that suggestion?


The MC1's hang with little intrusion into the room in a 5.1 setup. Really they are less intrusive than the old stand mounts I used to use. For a 7.1 setup you will want 4 to 5 feet from rear the speakers to the back of the seating position. I think MMG-W's will be find for surround duty.



5. Due to circumstances, the only multi-channel amp I now have available to me is a 125/180W one. Frankly it can't do the job and peters out with loud effects. Someone suggested the Rotel RMB-1076/1077 since it can dip down to 2 ohms. I'm partial to Class-D and have had several so I don't have doubts about the technology, but it's only a 100/200 watt amp. Has anyone used these amps with Maggies and had good results?


I run a mixed setup amplified wise. The mains are run with class D PS Audio amp, the rears with my receiver (Pioneer Elite), and the center with a Musical Fidelity class A amp. You DON'T need an amp capable of 2 ohms with ANY maggie. They are all a resistive load, so the only problem will be how loud you want to drive them. I get my room PLENY loud and the most powerful amp I use is less than 200 per channel.



I know the higher-end Maggies have substantially greater range, but they are also more expensive, larger, and as I've found out, very heavy too, which makes them a pain to ship. So I really want to stay with the wall hanging speakers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

As much as I love my 3.6's, I wouldn't be upset with a set of MC1's across the front. As long as you have a sub in the mix you've got a serious setup for both HT and audio.

[Geoffcin]

Any one try or hear what happens when Maggies are driven by tubes?

Yes, and with the right setup it's magical. I've heard Maggie 3.6's driven by a set of reference Audio Research amps. Crazy good! Like floating in a sea of sound.......

[nightflier]

Geoff, that was very good info. Thanks. I think I'll be going forward with the MC1s as the mains, and the MMG-Ws as rears. So provided it all works out, I'm looking at:

McCormack MAP1 Preamp
Rotel RMB-1077 amp (7-channels, 200/400W ea.)
Magnepan MG-MC1s front L&R
Magnepan MMG-C center
Magnepan MMG-Ws rear L&R

If the MAP-1 doesn't work out, I'm at a loss for a simple multichannel preamp. Mr.P said that CJ makes a tubed one, but I'm not too crazy about adding tubes because of the heat. Of course, that would allow me to add the "tube sound" to the system.

[jrhymeammo]

10.1QR can be found once in a while on Agon, and yes they are older than 12s.
Here is a pick from Agon that is currently being sold.
http://pic5.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1244658358.jpg

Not sure how handy you are, but if you will be modifying its crossovers, this one looks quite easier than 12s or 1.6QR. You would have to cut its socks for other models to access its crossovers. I would love to try another pair of Maggy's but its stock crossovers would have to go. I wish Magnepan offered crossover upgrade on their products.

[bubslewis]

Modifying crossovers on the 1.6's is not too difficult, but you have to settle for an external mount.

I wonder if Magnepan has made any progress in bringing their mini panel to market. They displayed it at the January 2009 Consumer Electronics Show (see Squeegy's post on modifying x-overs in this forum. In his reply, E-Stat provided a link to Stereophile's picture of the mini panels displayed at the show).

To me, the mini panels look very intriguing as rear speakers in an HT setup, or even maybe as a center channel, particularly in a smaller/limited space listening area. I haven't seen any news on them other than the CES picture.

Bill

[Mr Peabody]

Geoffcin, where've you been all this time? Modding under cover :)

[nightflier]

OK, the 10.1s have similar specs to the MC1s, but the reviews on the latter are far more positive. Some people have had horrible experiences with the 10.1s. If (and that's a big IF) that's just from a couple of disgruntled owners, and I do get the 10.1s, I will have panels that are the same width as the MC1s, 7" taller, that will handle an additional 50W of power and will have easier to mod cross-overs (although that is something I'm still not sure about doing). The drawback with the 10.1s is that they will have to be placed on the floor, away from the wall in what is really a fairly small room.

The bottom line is that I would only get the 10.1s if they would sound better than the MC1s. Used, the 10.1s are cheaper, but I had budgeted $800-ish for the front L&R anyhow, so the cost difference isn't really the issue for me. Any thoughts / recommendations?

[Mr Peabody]

NF, have you hooked up the Rotel yet? Have you decided on a preamp? Spearitsound was showing a Refurb CJ MET-1 5-channel tube preamp for $2500.00 retail $7500.00. This is a killer deal, the refurbs usually carry full factory warranty.

[nightflier]

Yes, I have. Actually I've been very busy. Here's what I've done so far:

- Replaced all my speakers with Maggies (MG12s, MMG-C, and MMG-W)
- Replaced the Outlaw Amp with the Rotel
- Replaced the Preamp with a McCormack


I just finished replacing the rear speakers last night (it turns out that the wall measurements in the Magnepan manual are off, BTW). I don't like the sound of the Rotel as much (a bit on the mushy side of neutral), but it eats up half the watts as the Outlaw, so I'll live with it. Anyhow, I'm trying to use the Spectron for the fronts, so that won't be as much of an issue for stereo listening. The reason the Spectron is not there now is because I need RCA-XLR adapters and it has no 12v trigger. Maybe I'll have to rethink this part a little.

The McCormack is a nice upgrade. Super simple to set up and very good sound, definitely an upgrade from the Outlaw 970 pre/pro. For 2-channel music, it's a bit lush, certainly more so than my Plinius pre, but that gives movies a bit of extra weight and authority, so that's also something I can live with. I only have one source right now, so I don't need an HDMI switchbox. The McCormack remote is a little chitsy, but I will probably get a Harmony remote for the whole system in the near future. One other drawback is that it doesn't have a remote on/off from standby. You have to go over to it and turn it on. My room is small, but jeez, you'd think McCormack could have added that in.

For the source, I'm using a crappy HK player that is just OK for sound and a bit less OK for picture - in short, my non-upconverting Sony SACD/DVD player runs circles around it. On the other hand, the HK does upconvert (to 1080i only), and has HDMI output, which is what I need to run the video over Cat5 to the TV on the other side of the room. It also has passable bass management and channel calibration, a must for the plain-vanilla options on the McCormack. If the Oppo universal has good SACD, that's going to be the next upgrade.

For the speakers, I'm toying with Magnepan's suggestion to run the front L&R signals through the sub and let it handle all the bass management. It's a bit odd to do it that way, but they claim it makes for a cleaner integration of the severely hobbled center channel (100Hz-16Khz) with the larger speakers. Theoretically, this should only work with a processor, because you loose all the bass intended for the center and rear MMG channels, but how much bass are we talking about, really? I have to do more testing and see what I like better.

I will say, though, that the many options on the SVS PB12+, really come in handy in a screwy setup like this one. I'm still dealing with a bit of brightness on the MG12s, mostly because my room is too small for them. In hindsight, the MC1s would have been the better option, but finding a pair of those on the used market is pretty rare, whereas the MMG12s are popping up all the time. The room problem, however, is only temporary, since I don't plan on staying in this house too much longer (we're bursting at the seams).

I sold my room correction panels when I moved to the smaller room last year, so I need to
re-invest in some of those. Right now, the MG12's are right up against the wall and they really need some damping behind them. The center channel, according to Magnepan, should also have some damping behind it. I'll probably ask around in the DIY forum what others have done, because I'm really not ready to buy panels at retail prices right now. I know it sounds petty, but I just don't see why they should be that much.

Anyhow, that's what I've done so far. The sound is very good, even with the room issues. Once I get the Spectron and Oppo in there, I'll spend more time fine-tuning everything.

[Mr Peabody]

You have been busy.

I agree with you on the sound of Rotel in general, it's even worse with both pre and power Rotel.

You might also be surprised at how much bass is in the center and surrounds. Especially the center. I'd recommend getting the Oppo or something similar with good bass management so you can use it to balance everything.

[blackraven]

Nightflier, if your MG12's are too bright you can tone it down with the resistor that Magnepan supplies to replace the jumper's on the back or the speakers.

[nightflier]

Blackraven,

Good point. I had forgotten about that.

Mr.P,

Don't get me wrong, it's an OK amp, but not for driving Maggies. When I tested it with my Talon Khites (easy to drive speakers), it proved to be fast and clean. I guess the best way to describe the sound is "without too much weight" which is really not what a bridghter sounding, open & airy speaker like the MG12 needs. The Spectron, in that respect, is a much better match - it has all of the Rotel's good qualities and then adds the "missing meat." Of course, it could also be that the Rotel doesn't have the needed power and that I'm really pushing it beyond what it was designed for.

This whole business with the cross-over is a whole other pickle, though. I really don't know what to do. On the one hand, the sub has additional dials for equalizing and could really be a great complement to stereo sound. But then I would have to "throw away" the bass in the center and surround channels. If, and that's a big if, the settings inside player are smart enough they should re-direct the bass from at least the center channel to the fronts (when these are set to large), but then I would still loose the bass from the surrounds. For that reason, I'm tempted to go with a more upscale BR player like the Denon so that I know I will have the configurability in the player that I will need.

This migration away from the many options of a processor is proving to be more work than I had hoped. Of course, it's my own fault for also changing out the speakers at the same time, obviously a big no-no in this hobby. It's just that these were a noticeable upgrade from the Viennas, and consequently a huge cost-savings too. In hindsight, I kind of wish I would have gone with the MC1s instead. That way I would have had to designate them as "small" and avoided the recommended fine-tuning that Magnepan recommends.

[Mr Peabody]

Well, while you are contemplating spending more money take a look at the REL subs which offer independent separate volume controls for the inputs which allow for one set up for stereo and another for LFE. Or, you could buy a matching sub as the one you have and set the player to "no sub" and run one sub for each channel. For instance, left channel to sub and then out to main left speaker. With this though you'd have to be able to hopefully direct the rear and center bass to mains.

I'd try a typical HT set up first before anything where the sub crossover is bypassed and use the crossover in the player, setting the Maggies to "small" Hopefully, this will play a 2.1 for you in stereo.

An odd thing with my SVS, when I had the Velodyne I didn't get bass from the sub in stereo but with the SVS I do. It's great. The only thing I can imagine is maybe the 2-channel signal was too weak to turn the Velodyne on. That doesn't seem likely but I didn't change anything on the preamp. Another thought is the SVS plays higher so therefore I hear the bass with the SVS.

[nightflier]

I thought I would give a quick update. I'm now running:

- HK DVD-48 player (until the next upgrade)
- Sony SACD/DVD
- McCormack MAP-1
- Spectron D1 to the front L&R
- Rotel RMB-1077 to the center & rears
- Magnepan MG12s (front), MMG-C (center), and MMG-W (rears)
- SVS SB12+ (sealed sub)

The DVD player video is going straight to the TV via a Cat5 connection, the McCormack handles volume control and switching between the SACD and DVD for the 5.1 inputs. The front L&R is currently going straight to the Spectron, but as soon as I get some XLR adapters, I'll pass it to the Sub's XLR inputs so that it can do the filtering instead of letting the crappy HK do it. Fortunately the Sony SACD has more options on that front - and it sounds much better to boot (too bad it doesn't have HDMI or DVI).

Speaking of sound, I'm not too impressed with the MAP-1's vaulted surround mode from 2 channels, but on multichannel sound it sounds very powerful, which is important considering that the rest of the system is a bit crisp-sounding. I've also driven the MG12s to extremely high levels (the kind that will make you squint, and they did not break up, thin out, or sound compressed. The Spectron can output watts in spades and the Maggies just took it. Now that's not how I plan to listen all the time, but it's nice to know the system can do that.

On movies the sound is a little less impressive, and I'm still having to turn the center channel up a few decibels over what the pressure meter recommends. But it's still a very impressive and immersive sound. I watched some scenes from TLOTR and the width of the soundstage while keeping the clarity is truly remarkable. I'm still futsing with the sub settings, though and I'm not quite where I wan to be there. Maybe once I get the sub integrated with the front speakers it will sound better. Oh and I still need to try the MG12s with the resistors in place, as well.

I have a pair of MC1s possibly coming in a couple of weeks. They are black and the rest of the system is white, so color-wise I'm not crazy about it, but I'll give them a listen if/when they get here. The other upgrade is a better source. I'm still not certain on which way to go there, yet. The Oppo certainly looks good, but I'm keeping my options open.

[blackraven]

Sounds like your on the right track, congrats. Magnepans can be very rewarding to listen too with the right equipment and power.

For a source, consider a DAC like a used Benchmark or PS audio Digilink III, Cambridge Audio 640c, Music Hall 25.2 or Marantz SA8001-80003

[Mr Peabody]

Nice set up NF. Glad things are coming together. I am really impressed with the SVS Ultra 13, if you decide you need a sub that will integrate beautifully and remain linear at higher bass frequencies it's the sub for the job.

The Marantz BD-8002 has been out long enough you might be able to find a deal on it. But it doesn't do SACD though. I wonder how far Sim Audio is from putting out something like this. I heard Arcam is but the price is off the chart.

[oaqm]

One other drawback is that it doesn't have a remote on/off from standby. You have to go over to it and turn it on. My room is small, but jeez, you'd think McCormack could have added that in.

As a fellow MAP-1 owner, that issue bugged the crap outta me also. Until...

Point your Harmony remote at that MAP-1 and hold the mute button down a few seconds and see if anything happens. The factory remote will do it also, it takes about a 2 second press of "mute" to bring the unit in and out of stand-by.

Spread the word.

[Mr Peabody]

Ah, that's how my Conrad Johnson preamp works. But they were nice enough to tell me in the owner's manual.

[Feanor]

Ah, that's how my Conrad Johnson preamp works. But they were nice enough to tell me in the owner's manual.

CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?

[hermanv]

CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?
I think C-J owns McCormack outright :) :)

[nightflier]

As a fellow MAP-1 owner, that issue bugged the crap outta me also. Until...

Point your Harmony remote at that MAP-1 and hold the mute button down a few seconds and see if anything happens. The factory remote will do it also, it takes about a 2 second press of "mute" to bring the unit in and out of stand-by.

Spread the word.

Thanks!

[Mr Peabody]

CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?

You are correct sir. I know McCormack is built in the CJ factory but I'm not sure of the exact relationship. I also know that the two differ widely in sound quality. Both good, just different.