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nomis3613
06-20-2009, 02:54 PM
Hi,
This is my first post here, and I'd like to thankyou for the reviews on this site, they are really helpful. I'm looking to replace my amp and get a CD player, and I would really appreciate some advice.

The amp will drive my DB Dynamics floorstanders (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/dbdynamics_488f.shtml) (I know they're hardly top quality but I got them for $AU 350 {$US 260} and they keep me happy for the moment. And lets not talk about what amp I am currently using, other than to say I got it for $US 50!!).

Here's what I am looking for in a second hand integrated amp:
- banana speaker posts (I currently use spring clips and I hate them!)
- pre-out for my eq
- I'm lazy so I'd like a remote control
- budget US$240

NADs are popular on Ebay in Australia and get good reviews on here, my preference at the moment is a NAD 712. Others on the shortlist are the 3020B (I know, there's no remote) and 7240PE (ditto).
Would you say the "NAD sound" is very strong, or just a subtle difference? I will probably be impressed with the sound given the improvement over my current Kenwood el cheapo receiver, but I'm not keen on anything with a distinctive character ala "the vinyl sound" some people love. Can you suggest any amps from other brands? Is the AMC 3000 any good?

For the CD player, I'm trying to decide if its worth getting one with an optical link (I realise this means a different amp to above). Is it worth using an optical link? Or is the DAC in a good CD player going to be better than in the amp, so there's no point?

Thanks in advance. And thanks for reading this massive post!

Simon

luvtolisten
06-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Hi Simon,
And Welcome! Looks like you got a great deal on your speakers, as long as you like them and you 're happy, that's all that really matters. I'm a budget guy too! The NAD is a good choice, I bought a NAD T754 AV receiver (refurb) 6 months ago and like it a lot. The video part is outdated (no HDMI), but the sound is what I was after anyway.
A nice integrated, which may fall into your budget is the Cambridge Audio 540V2. Here in the US they are on sale, for $299 (actually less than the 340V2). They are a British company so I'm not sure is the sale is worldwide or not. Here is a link:
http://www.spearitsound.com/Cambridge_Audio/Cambridge_Audio_540av2.asp
I have the 640V2 as well. I would say the sound between the 640 and my NAD is very close. The 640 has a little sweeter high end, while the NAD has good solid deep bass, but the difference is very slight. If pressed I'd say the Cambridge is probably better suited to rock, whereas the the NAD is more natural, perhaps a little more versatile with different types of music. Again ,ever so slight. The CD player was $329 list. The DAC was $399. But the DAC has more options, (I use mine with my computer).
Most integrated amps don't have a built in DAC. You may have to go with a AV receiver for that. Onkyo has a good reputation, and you maybe able to pickup a 506, or 606, at a good price:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR506/Onkyo/TX-SR506-7.1-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-BLACK/1.html

As far as your question on the CD DAC vs. the Receiver DAC, it depends on the quality of the CD player. Most CD players DAC's have a 44.1 bit output. Most receiver DAC's are 96 bit. I have a 5 disc Sony DVD player, which DOES sound better using the NAD DAC.
But I also have a Marantz 4001 changer (a refurb for $149) which I have hooked up using the digital output to a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic then,to the Cambridge 640. I also have The Marantz hooked up with using analog outputs to the Cambridge 640, because I wondered about the same thing,as you were, about 3 months ago, so I did a A/B comparison. They both sound good to me.To me it's more of a matter of taste, than which actually sounds better. On my system anyway. So, to answer your question, an inexpensive CD player will sound better using the digital output to a higher quality receiver. but with the the quality of both being the same, you may not notice that big a difference, more of taste than sound quality.
But no matter what you choose, I think you will enjoy an improvement in sound. Before the NAD and Cambridge Audio 640, I was using a Harmon Kardon AV120. Now I hear more detail, stronger, tighter bass, and more dynamics or "punch". I hope this helps.

LeRoy
06-20-2009, 05:31 PM
Hi Nomis3613,

NAD is consistent in featuring pre-amp output's on their integrated amp's and as of late are getting postive reviews on their current line. I've recently purchased the NAD 545BEE CD player and am very pleased with it. The 545 does have optical out and a very cool feature where it can play MP3/WMA formatted recordings on CD-R or CD-RW discs and using a special section of the remote you can select the folder and file that you want and push play to get the music started. I did not know it had that feature until I bought the player and is something I probably won't use but you might!?!

I don't have any experience with using DAC's so I could not tell you the benefits of it.

As luvtolisten pointed out the Cambridge Audio gear should also be a consideration. Another brand to consider are the Marantz integrated's as they also been getting good press so check that out as well.

Here a couple of websites that may offer some help in sorting things out for you.

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/

http://www.stereomojo.com/

http://sonicflare.com/

LeRoy

Rega Brio 3 Integrated Amp
NAD 545 BEE CD Player
Nola Mini speakers
Chord Carnival Silver Screen speaker wire
Chord Cobra 3 analog audio interconnects

nomis3613
06-20-2009, 11:31 PM
LeRoy and luvtolisten, thanks heaps for you advice, it is really helpful.

Good to know I'm on the right track with the NAD amps. I had a look for Cambridge amps, seems they're not very common in Australia so I couldn't find any second hand. Thanks anyway.

And from your tests with the DACs I'll just make sure I get a good CD player, then I can stick to analogue cabling (which helps lots because that would really limit my choice of amps). Something like a Denon DCM-280, Yamaha CDC-565 or Marantz player?

luvtolisten
06-21-2009, 04:36 AM
LeRoy and luvtolisten, thanks heaps for you advice, it is really helpful.

Good to know I'm on the right track with the NAD amps. I had a look for Cambridge amps, seems they're not very common in Australia so I couldn't find any second hand. Thanks anyway.

And from your tests with the DACs I'll just make sure I get a good CD player, then I can stick to analogue cabling (which helps lots because that would really limit my choice of amps). Something like a Denon DCM-280, Yamaha CDC-565 or Marantz player?

You're welcome, glad I could help.

I think you'll be happy with a used NAD. A good choice for the price range you are looking at.

I don't know much about the Denon, but I have heard the Yamaha's recommended before, and I know I'm happy with my Marantz. (Denon & Marantz are sister companies now). I have heard that Phillips makes most of the DAC's for CD players in the price range you are looking at, to the manufacturer's specs I would imagine. Here is a list of the DAC's of most CD player's. It may help give you a feel of the quality of the DAC of a CD player you are thinking about:
http://www.freeweb.hu/mestertuning/dac.php?lang=en

Good luck & Enjoy!

LeRoy
06-21-2009, 05:51 AM
You're welcome Nomis3613. You may want to have a look at some retail sites online. Earlier this year I purchased a Marantz Universal Player from www.musicdirect.com. I checked last night and the unit is still on sale, MARANTZ - DV 6001 UNIVERSAL PLAYER, $249.00, and it's new. They also list a demo unit for the same model for only $199.00. The DV6001 is a closeout sale on the site just so that you know where to find it quick. The player is also an SACD/DVD-A player so that may be a bonus you may enjoy at some point in the future. The price is right and so you may want to consider it.


2 words of caution. It's easy to confuse the above model with the MARANTZ - VC 6001 5-DISC UNIVERSAL CHANGER which is also selling for the same price. The reason I choose the DV 6001 over the VC 6001 is due to the many negative reviews on how slow the carousel is and how you are not able unload and reload a CD while there is a CD playing at the same it. You would not experience this situation with the DV 6001 as it's a single disc player only.

As far as a Denon player....well, I bought the much heralded Denon 1910 CD player about 4 years ago and returned it. There was too much audible electronic noise once the player was turned on. Also, I found the menu selections on how to set up the unit to be too complicated and restricting. For example, I could only configure a sub woofer to the on position for DVD but had no such option for CD. If I played a CD then the sub woofer would not kick it. Maybe it was me that needed a new brain but I sent the unit back for a full refund anyway.

If you simply want to check out for comparison's sake, the NAD, Cambridge, and Marantz brands that we have discussed in this thread...then go here to this web site... http://www.audioadvisor.com/

Have fun shopping and good luck with your selections.

LeRoy

nomis3613
06-22-2009, 03:04 AM
Hi guys! Thanks again.

Are you from the USA (hence your prices are US$)? I think you'll be shocked at the price of decent audio gear in Australia! I had a look for the Marantz DV-6001 on Australian site and here's what I found.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/aihomecinema/Products%20and%20%20prices.htm
US$560!!! You can get one for $200?? That's not fair!
Also, our market is probably a lot smaller, so I think we miss out on a lot of models/brands (Cambridge Audio for example).

Thanks for the tip, I'll be careful of Denon CD players.

Luvtolisten, that list looks great, but I don't know how to use it! How do I found out specs on each of the DACs? I had a bit of a google and it all looked pretty deep and technical.

Is the main thing for a DAC whether there is any oversampling (2x, 4x, or 8x)? <edit> Is the bit depth always 16 or does 24 bit help for CDs?
(somehow I doubt anything in my price range will be this fancy, but it's always good to learn stuff!)

Cheers,
Simon

luvtolisten
06-22-2009, 12:18 PM
Hi guys! Thanks again.

Luvtolisten, that list looks great, but I don't know how to use it! How do I found out specs on each of the DACs? I had a bit of a google and it all looked pretty deep and technical.

Don't feel bad, most of it was over my head too. I just used it as a comparison chart, within the same manufacturer.to determine if it was worth it to me to go the next step up, the product line or not. Some do use the same DAC, some don't, but offer another feature, which may not unimportant to me.

luvtolisten
06-22-2009, 12:36 PM
Hi guys! Thanks again.

Is the main thing for a DAC whether there is any oversampling (2x, 4x, or 8x)? <edit> Is the bit depth always 16 or does 24 bit help for CDs?
(somehow I doubt anything in my price range will be this fancy, but it's always good to learn stuff!)

Cheers,
Simon

Most DAC's in CD players now do over-sample, I'm not sure but I would say they are at least 8X.
Usually a 24 bit 96kHz (or 192kHz) will sound better than a 16 bit 44.1 kHz. There are other factors such as the quality of the components used.

Personally, I would keep the CD player and just buy a DAC, one that up-samples to 24 bit, 192 kHz. Using the digital output of your CD player to bypass it's own DAC. You could then use with it your PC as well, using your USB port,(I use my PC as a music server with Itunes).
And yes I do live in the USA, I saw your prices there, YIKES!!. But here is a DAC, well rated for the price:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MFVDAC

If it were me, and again just my own personal opinion, I would buy the Amp, keep the CD player, buy a DAC instead, rather than a new CD player (if all costs are relatively the same, the cost the DAC vs the cost of a new CD player). I think you would be happier in the long run.

LeRoy
06-22-2009, 02:12 PM
Greetings from Texas....I checked out your Aussie website....man, it would be very tough for me to consider anything from those guys at their listed prices. I now can identify with you quest for audio at reasonable prices.....

Maybe http://geo.craigslist.org/iso/au or ebay will be a possible consideration for a search?

LeRoy

nomis3613
06-24-2009, 10:26 PM
Hi,

Actually I don't even have a CD player at the moment! I am using my housemate's el cheapo DVD changer and he's moving out. So since I'm buying one, I might as well get something decent!

I'm deciding between a Marantz CD4000 and a Yamaha CDC-575 (1/2 the price of the Marantz). Both of them get good reviews on here, but it seems the reviewers of the Yamaha are just happy it has a 5 disc exchanger and aren't exactly discerning listeners (sorry for being snobby!).

The Marantz uses 4x oversampling, and the Yamaha uses S-Bit (1-bit/bitstream DAC). I understand the theory of each one separately, but can't work out which is better. Is the 4x oversampling technique better than the 1-bit technique?

(of course I expect the Marantz to be higher quality in general due to being a better brand but I'm just trying to work out if it's worth the extra cash)

Thanks,
Simon

RGA
06-24-2009, 11:16 PM
Lets start with the amp - I recommend this one http://www.rotel.com/UK/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=43 as a demo or used at your price - they have lower priced models. I prefer the sound to any of the NADs.

With the changer - none of them sound great - you don't buy these things on sound quality but on features and it is doubtful you'll be able to tell the difference in sound. Having said that if you are going to buy a machine for its changer capabilities then bypass the 5 disc models and go strait to the 300 or 400 mega changers from Sony. For $400 Sony has a beast of a machine - it is a DVD/CD changer that ALSO players SACD and MP3. I have their 300 disc changer and it's pretty good sounding. I was very pleasantly surprised that for about $280Cad (CDP-CX355) that it did not and does not sound harsh or "tinny" - don't get too excited it doesn't sound all that alive or interesting or beautiful either but it is certainly nice enough to listen to for long periods - for a machine that can play 300 discs AND also has optical outputs for either an external dac or to daisy chain to a second 300 disc player.

It has a bit of a cumbersome in machine memory service but my recommendation is to create a spread sheet to let you know which disc is in which slot. A couple of hours work to be sure but you're set for life and you can pretty much instantly access any song from any album without getting off the couch. And they come with a better warranty than the 5 disc models. The 300 Sony is quite a simple machine but seems fairly well built considering the money.

And the price has come further down to under $200. http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11041226

The 400 disc DVD playing version http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11038348

LeRoy
06-25-2009, 02:09 PM
Simon,

The Marantz player I wrote about was a replacement for a Yamaha universal player (forgot the model#). The Yamaha would not unload a disk and I was thinking that was the end of that player so I ordered it's replacement. A couple of weeks later I was able to get my bro-in-law, who had the right tool to open up the player, extract the disk. The Yamaha had given me great service for a couple of years up to that point.

The Marantz player is a tonally dark player with BASS being the emphasis. I have had to dial down the subwoofer for both movies and music. Mids are generally acceptable for music and for movies the voices are clear and distinct. Highs on the Marantz are not as good as the Yamaha player for music but for movies the highs are great. The pace of the Marantz is slower than that of the Yamaha and took me some time to adjust. Marantz is noted for slower pace and bass emphasis. Overall, I enjoyed the music presentation of the Yamaha more than that of the Marantz but prefer the Marantz over the Yamaha for movies.

So, it depends..what is the emphasis for you..tonally dark/more bass/slower pace or a balanced sound with better pacing with more loaded disks?

LeRoy

luvtolisten
06-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Hi Simon,
I use a CD changer myself, the Marantz CD 4001, I'm a budget guy too, and I do like the convenience of putting on 5 CD's and not having to get up after one CD. Besides, how many CD's do you actually like all the songs? I am do like Marantz, but to be honest I don't think it's worth 2X the price of the Yamaha you have listed. I would go with the Yamaha, it sounds like a better deal. Here in the US, the prices of the 2 are very close. You can read reviews by owners here on this site:
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digital-sources/cd-players/yamaha/cdc-575/PRD_117225_1586crx.aspx

and here:

http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/marantz/cd-players/cd-4000/PRD_123926_1586crx.aspx

As you can see they are very close, with a slight nod to the Yamaha. Given that, and 1/2 the price of the Marantz, I'd say everything points to the Yamaha.

nomis3613
06-25-2009, 10:36 PM
Lets start with the amp - I recommend this one http://www.rotel.com/UK/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=43 as a demo or used at your price - they have lower priced models. I prefer the sound to any of the NADs.

...

And the price has come further down to under $200. http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11041226

The 400 disc DVD playing version http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11038348

Hi RGA,
Thanks for your help. After my initial post, I realised that audio gear is hideously expensive here in Australia compared to what you guys in Canada/USA enjoy. So a Rotel RA-05 from an Australian store (http://www.internationaldynamics.com.au/brand.asp?id=21) is the equivalent of $650!!! The same is true of CD players, so unfortunately I'm shopping much lower down the food chain than you would expect.

5 Discs seems plenty for me (if I want hours and hours I'll just connect my mp3 player and put up with the lower quality), and yes, I'm sure I could get a more technically pure player if I forked out more cash!

Thanks for the tips,

Simon

nomis3613
06-25-2009, 11:05 PM
So, it depends..what is the emphasis for you..tonally dark/more bass/slower pace or a balanced sound with better pacing with more loaded disks?
LeRoy


As you can see they are very close, with a slight nod to the Yamaha. Given that, and 1/2 the price of the Marantz, I'd say everything points to the Yamaha.

Thanks, I'm not into movies, so looks like the Yamaha is the pick for me. Which means I'll have some extra cash in my pocket for the amp!

luvtolisten, I'm looking at a NAD T760 to be used strictly as a stereo amp. Can the rear channels on your T754 be set up as B speakers (ie identical signal to the fronts), so I can use it for bi-wiring?

(yes, I realise any benefits of bi-wiring are highly debatable!)

Thanks,
Simon

RGA
06-25-2009, 11:28 PM
My only other suggestion is to skip the idea of buying new - $250US amplifiers new are all, to put it bluntly, poor.

However the used market may yield some real finds in the $250-$300 range. I picked up a Sugden A48 - which IMO sounds better than any NAD or Rotel and I think I paid about $350Cad which at that time would have been under $300 US. No remote control but it did have a phono stage. Very nice amp.

Still you may able to find amps from Sugden, Creek Audio, Naim or upper end Rotel or NAD for the same price as lower end new units.

For a changer I would recommend the "type of" changer from Nakamichi which is a single disc player mechanism that had changer capabilities - they're better built than carousel models and sounded better to boot. You would have to buy used but again you would save a lot of money that could then be put to the better used amplifier. Try and stretch the money as far as you can to get the best sound you can - and that is better served on the used market with a small budget.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nakamichi-CD-Player-3-Music-Bank-System-7-Disc-Changer_W0QQitemZ290323899650QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ 20090613?IMSfp=TL090613236006r9030

You'd have to hunt for one in Australia but...

nightflier
06-26-2009, 03:38 PM
When in Rome.... I have no idea what they cost down under on the used market, but have you considered something home-grown like Plinius or Perreaux? I have a Plinius CD-LAD that is the best preamp I ever owned. Maybe there are other local brands as well?

luvtolisten
06-26-2009, 06:22 PM
luvtolisten, I'm looking at a NAD T760 to be used strictly as a stereo amp. Can the rear channels on your T754 be set up as B speakers (ie identical signal to the fronts), so I can use it for bi-wiring?

(yes, I realise any benefits of bi-wiring are highly debatable!)

Thanks,
Simon

Simon,
Yes, there is a listening mode called "Enhance ST1" which puts the surrounds in a stereo mode same as the front, for CD listening. It also has "B" speakers as well, or Zone 2, with it's own remote.

I'm not sure if you meant bi-wiring:
http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm

or bi-amping?
I take ityou meant bi-amping. I have never tried bi-amping, so I have no opinion on it, but here is how to do it using a T773, which is the same as my T754 as far as the connections:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56756

nomis3613
06-27-2009, 03:07 PM
Thanks everyone!

Hi RGA, yeah I'm definitely going second hand to get the most bang for my buck!! Otherwise, I'd end up with some Sony MegaBassVirtualSurroundExtreme+ system...

Nightflyer, great ideas, I'll keep an eye out for those brands. I'm getting the impression that because the market is so small over here in Oz, there just isn't the choice in new or used gear. Maybe I'll get lucky!



I'm not sure if you meant bi-wiring:
http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm

or bi-amping?
I take ityou meant bi-amping. I have never tried bi-amping

I thought I meant bi-wiring, but maybe I am actually bi-amping!! (but without the active crossover)
http://www.oregondv.com/Audio_FAQ_Bi-Wire_Bi-amp%20.htm

I am running the high speakers off the amp A-speaker output, and the lows off the B-speaker. If there are off seperate amps (they'd have to be for a surround sound amp which can send different signals to the rear speakers, right??) then I guess it is bi-wiring.

I didn't realise that bi-wiring is often done using a single amp binding post. Anyways, good to know I can bi-amp/bi-wire plus/whatever if I go with the NAD receiver. Thanks.

If you're interested in reading about bi-wiring etc, here's a good article:
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring

Cheers,
Simon

luvtolisten
06-28-2009, 04:03 PM
Thanks everyone!



I am running the high speakers off the amp A-speaker output, and the lows off the B-speaker. If there are off seperate amps (they'd have to be for a surround sound amp which can send different signals to the rear speakers, right??) then I guess it is bi-wiring.

Yes, same Amp, but different channels.
I didn't realise that bi-wiring is often done using a single amp binding post. Anyways, good to know I can bi-amp/bi-wire plus/whatever if I go with the NAD receiver. Thanks.

You're welcome. I think you will enjoy the NAD receiver, it is very versatile receiver with listen modes which are actually useful (not the crummy re-verb effect on other cheaper AV receivers).
The only drawback on the NAD, for me anyway is you'll need a TV to first set it up (On Screen Display). But all in all a very nice receiver.
Since you are on a tight budget, you may want to consider a "DAC kit". Here is one purchased from a user member on this forum. They do ship internationally.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=30879

If you're interested in reading about bi-wiring etc, here's a good article:
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring

Cheers,
Simon
Thanks, and good luck to you,let us know how it goes.

nomis3613
08-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Hi All,

My system is finally complete, so just thought I'd pop back in and let you know what I ended up with.

Thanks to everyone for their help. I think with a bit of knowledge I've been able to get more bang for buck than if I jumped in blindly.

So I ended up getting a Yamaha CDC-575 (1 bit DAC, 5 disc changer, optical out if I ever need it) and...wait for it... a NAD 712. Great value at $350 for NAD (I unhappily learnt along the way that stuff is sooo much more expensive in Australia. We pay big bucks for used gear that you US and UK folk would find abandoned by the side of the road...). Also, I've got an old Marantz eq for when I disagree with the mastering engineer's notion of tonal balance...

And it sounds amazing!!!

I never had a problem with the old amp (Kenwood "80w" surround sound receiver) but wow the NAD has opened my ears. The Kenwood never sounded distorted as such, but as you cranked it, you got to a point where it sounded too loud. But the NAD just gets better and better and your ears never say "enough", which makes me realise that the other one was getting harsh at high levels.

The stereo imaging is also far better, the definition of fingers on fretboards etc is amazing and the bass seems "fuller"- like the Kenwood had more "thump" but the NAD has real weight behind it. Also, it seems like the NAD is more dynamic, sudden transients have much more power. I was listening to a Dire Straights soft piano intro and when the band burst in, I was almost knocked over by the impact!

So far, it's copped a workout with everything from Millencolin to Dresden Dolls, True Live (hiphop w/ strings), Dire Straights, Harry Connick Jnr, Dvorak...and all of it has been amazing!!

luvtolisten
08-04-2009, 02:57 AM
Hi Simon,
Good to hear from you. Glad to hear you're happy with your choices. I can relate to what you're saying with the NAD. Before I had mine, I had a Harmon Kardon AV120. It was okay, but not as clear, detailed as the NAD, and no where near the dynamic range and punch.
I have heard good things about Yamaha CD players as well. Sounds like a good match. Thanks for getting back. Enjoy!

nomis3613
02-24-2014, 12:32 AM
Holy necro-post!

Thought I'd give a Cambridge Audio Azur 640A a try. Here's a comparison with the NAD 712 in case anyone's interested: Cambridge Audio Azur 640A Integrated Amplifiers reviews - Audioreview.com (http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/integrated-amplifiers/cambridge-audio/azur-640a/prd_299478_2717_2358263crx.aspx)

Cheers,
Simon