Integrated Amp and Absolute Sound

[JohnMichael]

I have been reading the recent Absolute Sound magazine and they did a review of two integrated maps. The Goldenote from Italy caught my interest as did the new Krell int. amp. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with Goldenote?

I have been looking at many integrated amps and I am trying to narrow my choices. They seem to be in two camps either the 60 watt or 100-250 watt amps. The Naim Nait, Exposure 2010, Goldenote S1, LFD Zero, Simaudio Moon 1 are all in the 50-70 watt range. Creek, Musical Fidelity, Krell, Portal Panache are higher wattage units. I do know the power supply quality of the amp is very important. I am only able to hear a few of the amps with which I am interested.

I am not interested in tubed units. I plan on buying new. Since last time I asked for advice there are new units on the market and I am looking for current advice. Thanks for any help.

The good news is the condo I inherited is finally under contract. It has been a money pit since it could not be rented and we have been paying the condo fees, utilities and property taxes. I hope I have written my last big check to the condo fund. I look forward to the delivery of new equipment and a little travel.

[basite]

Hi John, I've heard the Naim a couple of times, and found impressive sounding to say at least, very detailed and lively with great, tight bass. it had this certain 'slam' to it's sound.
The exposure, I have heard too, but not that long. I couldn't really say that it stood out amongst others, a softer, more gentle, but 'fresh' sound though... attractive price too (here in europe, at least...)

I haven't had that much experience with the other gear you mentioned. The simaudio is pretty analytical though, from my other experiences with the brand...
What musical fidelity are you looking at? great gear too, but I'd definately go for an Accuphase or a Mcintosh instead...

Speaking of which, if you pay a little more (not that much more, really), you could also look at an Accuphase integrated, an E-350, for example. Great gear, lasts a lifetime, amazing sound...
Or a Mcintosh, but you'd have to go for a MA6500 or MA6600 to better the E350, and they cost more...

Good luck and have fun :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

The amps that most interest me in the $1.5K to $2K range are:

Musical Fidelity A1 - 36 Watts
Naim Nait 5i - 50 Watts
Simaudio Moon I1 - 50 Watts
YBA YA201 - 100 Watts
Roksan Kandy K2 - 125 Watts
Cambridge Audio 840A V2 - 120 Watts
&
Creek Evolution 5350 - 120 Watts

With the exception of the Creek (which is yet to be released) all the others have been drooled over in hifi mags across the globe, for being genuine High-End entry points (assuming that matters)...

[Ajani]

I forgot to add these two Class D Integrated amps:

PS Audio Trio C-100 - 100 Watts
Bel Canto S300i - 150 Watts

[jrhymeammo]

With your budget, how about a Level-2 modified Xandak XA-6950?

[JohnMichael]

Hi John, I've heard the Naim a couple of times, and found impressive sounding to say at least, very detailed and lively with great, tight bass. it had this certain 'slam' to it's sound.
The exposure, I have heard too, but not that long. I couldn't really say that it stood out amongst others, a softer, more gentle, but 'fresh' sound though... attractive price too (here in europe, at least...)

I haven't had that much experience with the other gear you mentioned. The simaudio is pretty analytical though, from my other experiences with the brand...
What musical fidelity are you looking at? great gear too, but I'd definately go for an Accuphase or a Mcintosh instead...

Speaking of which, if you pay a little more (not that much more, really), you could also look at an Accuphase integrated, an E-350, for example. Great gear, lasts a lifetime, amazing sound...
Or a Mcintosh, but you'd have to go for a MA6500 or MA6600 to better the E350, and they cost more...

Good luck and have fun :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.


Bert,

Thanks for the advice. The Musical Fidelity int amp I have been considering is the A5.5. It is a 250 watt integrated amp. I have never gone for high power before but I understand the thoughts behind high power. I also agree with those who promote low power single pair of tranisistors.

I have also been consiedering the Luxman L505u.

I am 53 years old and I am looking for an integrated amp that will last for many a years. This may be the amp that lasts me to the end. I am looking for something neutral that might lean to warmth. Better seperation of instruments and more defined soundstage will be welcome. A little stronger in the bass would be nice. The Onkyo A 9555 is much of what I enjoy as far as balance and neutrality but I want a little more. The A 9555 is amazing for the money.

I will travel to Cincinnati to hear Naim. Much of what I am interested in I am not able to hear.

Thanks,

[JohnMichael]

With your budget, how about a Level-2 modified Xandak XA-6950?


JRA I looked up the brand since I was not familiar with the name. Interesting suggestion and I have been interested in Dussun. So many choices too little chances of hearing them.

[basite]

I have also been consiedering the Luxman L505u.

I am 53 years old and I am looking for an integrated amp that will last for many a years. This may be the amp that lasts me to the end. I am looking for something neutral that might lean to warmth. Better seperation of instruments and more defined soundstage will be welcome. A little stronger in the bass would be nice. The Onkyo A 9555 is much of what I enjoy as far as balance and neutrality but I want a little more. The A 9555 is amazing for the money.

Definitely keep the Luxman in mind :)

I heard some luxman products amps recently, they were too rich for my blood, but anyways:
They were absolutely amazing. almost undescribeable. Compared to other products in the same price range, I would have preferred the luxman above them.

Accuphase is a really great brand too, and just like luxman, extremely reliable. very fast, clean and well detailed sound. very transparent, fantastic sound stage. Wether they are 'neutral' or not may be subjective, but if this is coloration, bring on the entire rainbow.

I'd say: add mcintosh to your list too, but you'd be looking at higher priced amps to compete with the luxman and accuphase. Not that the lower priced units are bad, but the real Mcintosh house sound will come out better with their autoformers...

All of the above are amazing brands, and will probably last longer than one's lifetime...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Auricauricle]

I have read very nice things about the Onkyo A9555, JM. When you say you want "a little more", what do you mean? More neutrality? More kick?

Accuphase is truly a manufacturer of robust and reliable gear, as basite points out. Although I have not owned anything of theirs, I have had the pleasure of listening to a fre integrateds and stand alone amps hooked to some of the higher priced Tannoys (Churchills, Westminsters, etc.). The presentation, to my recollection was meaty and unstrained. It's the kind of stuff that gets passed on to the grandkids....

I like Naim. Hooked up to to a pair of Epos, the Naims were quite musical and natural. I remember small chamber and jazz ensembles played with an eerie presence that reminded me why this hobby holds me in its grip even today.

Luxman is very nice, but their products are much like Marantz: Higher along the price range, the stuff gets better and better; further down, things get less interesting. Caveat emptor.

[Feanor]

Definitely keep the Luxman in mind :)
...
Accuphase is a really great brand too, and just like luxman, extremely reliable. very fast, clean and well detailed sound. very transparent, fantastic sound stage. Wether they are 'neutral' or not may be subjective, but if this is coloration, bring on the entire rainbow.

I'd say: add mcintosh to your list too...

All of the above are amazing brands, and will probably last longer than one's lifetime...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Personally I'd really like the Pass Labs INT-150, but at US$7000 it ain't happening.
...

[Auricauricle]

Shoot! I gotta start wearin' a bib before I log on, here!

[basite]

Personally I'd really like the Pass Labs INT-150, but at US$7000 it ain't happening.
...

cool amp!

never saw one yet, but if it's in the same trend as the other Pass labs gear, I'm interested to find out more :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

cool amp!

never saw one yet, but if it's in the same trend as the other Pass labs gear, I'm interested to find out more :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I've heard that the INT-150 is precisely an XP-10 preamp and X150.5 power amp combined in one chassis.
...

[Bernd]

John, I know you said no tubes, but these two suggestions only have small signal tubes which last a long time. Knowing a little what music you like I would try and hear the Unison Research Unico and/or the Pathos One. I never got on with Naim amps, I guess is that relentness drive.
Good luck with the search.

[GMichael]

Shoot! I gotta start wearin' a bib before I log on, here!

Me2. It's just not fairs I tells ya...:ciappa:

[basite]

Me2. It's just not fairs I tells ya...:ciappa:


here's another one for ya, just to see if you're actually wearing the bib :p

CLICK HERE. (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3617792952_46c342606e_o.jpg)

You could have one too :D

keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

here's another one for ya, just to see if you're actually wearing the bib :p

CLICK HERE. (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3617792952_46c342606e_o.jpg)

You could have one too :D

keep them spinning,
Bert.

Smarty pants. I've already droolled over that one. No double dipping. :hand:

[Auricauricle]

Bert...you are dithpicable!

[JohnMichael]

John, I know you said no tubes, but these two suggestions only have small signal tubes which last a long time. Knowing a little what music you like I would try and hear the Unison Research Unico and/or the Pathos One. I never got on with Naim amps, I guess is that relentness drive.
Good luck with the search.



Bernd I have read that the chief complaint for some is that relentless drive of the Naim. There is more than just the toe tapping. I have read about the Unico and Pathos One and both are interesting. I just worry that I am too neurotic for tubes. Will consider them in my search. Looks like I may be travelling to hear some amps.

[JohnMichael]

I have read very nice things about the Onkyo A9555, JM. When you say you want "a little more", what do you mean? More neutrality? More kick?





The Onkyo A 9555 is very nice and the phono pre amp is great with the Ortofon OM20. I like the tonal balance but could use a little more seperation and definition of the soundstage.

[jrhymeammo]

Bernd I have read that the chief complaint for some is that relentless drive of the Naim. There is more than just the toe tapping. I have read about the Unico and Pathos One and both are interesting. I just worry that I am too neurotic for tubes. Will consider them in my search. Looks like I may be travelling to hear some amps.
John,

You live in Dayton, right?
Hanson Audio carried Pathos Acoustics last time I was there. I think you would get much more involving sound than suggested above. Luxman's phono stage looks very interesting though.

PS: I doubt you are interested, but the spelling of integrated amp I had mentioned is Xindak, not Xandak.

Regards,

[JohnMichael]

John,

You live in Dayton, right?
Hanson Audio carried Pathos Acoustics last time I was there. I think you would get much more involving sound than suggested above. Luxman's phono stage looks very interesting though.

PS: I doubt you are interested, but the spelling of integrated amp I had mentioned is Xindak, not Xandak.

Regards,



I lived in Dayton from 1975-1979. I now live 32 miles East of Columbus. I was interested in your suggestion and I found it. My computer always asks did you mean this spelling you dyslexic bastard. I looked at it and found it interesting. I am learning about all your good suggestions.

[Bernd]

Bernd I have read that the chief complaint for some is that relentless drive of the Naim. There is more than just the toe tapping. I have read about the Unico and Pathos One and both are interesting. I just worry that I am too neurotic for tubes. Will consider them in my search. Looks like I may be travelling to hear some amps.

If tubes are not for you, try and hear a Sugden amp. I can almost guarantee that you would love the sound it makes. Class A all the way. Those three amps I mentioned are the total opposite from Naim. If you like one musical presentation you will not like the other. The new Marantz "Black Pearl" also looks interesting, although I have not heard one yet. Anyway, a nice reason to travel.:yesnod:

[Feanor]

Bernd I have read that the chief complaint for some is that relentless drive of the Naim. There is more than just the toe tapping. I have read about the Unico and Pathos One and both are interesting. I just worry that I am too neurotic for tubes. Will consider them in my search. Looks like I may be travelling to hear some amps.

Me too to the extent that I haven't tried a tube power amp. But tube preamps and hybrid power tube driver stages are perhaps a bit easier. Their tubes are typically long-lived and don't require biasing.

If I were starting from scratch I might consider a 'Audio by Van Alstine' combination:

Transcendence Eight tube preamp (http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/preamplifier/Transcendence_Eight_Vacuum_Tube_Preamplifier.htm), $1600 with remote control
Insight 240 hybrid - NOT power amp (http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/insight_240.htm), 120 wps at 8 ohms, zero gobal feedback, $1000. My mistake: the Insight amps are all-solid state. A true North American product priced under US$3k.

I think it's Blackraven who has AVA equipment and might lend an endorsement.

[Auricauricle]

Interesting comment about the Onky, JM. I see you stuck a Hi Fi tuning fuse in (didn't Stereophile reccommend this?). Did that not make any difference?

[JohnMichael]

Interesting comment about the Onky, JM. I see you stuck a Hi Fi tuning fuse in (didn't Stereophile reccommend this?). Did that not make any difference?




The Onkyo is very good for the money. I am still happy with it but I have listened to other electronics and I know there is a greater level of refinement and resolution. Onky will be moving into a bedroom system and what ever amp I choose will be in the living room. My speakers are very nice and I think will benefit with a step or two up in electronics. I want an amp that can drive any speaker I might choose in the future and built to last. My budget is up to $3500.

[Auricauricle]

With that budget, it looks as though you can pick and choose as you please. Have you looked into Bryston or Mark Levinson? Where are you heading?

[basite]

I'd definately look at Accuphase then, and that Luxman sure as well is a candidate too...

Good luck, and have fun!!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

Hey JM,

Don't forget to tell us your impressions of anything you check out or buy. This way, we (I) can drool over your new equipment. Plus, it will give me an idea of what I might like when I have an extra $3500.:frown2:

Enjoy the sampling JM. It's half the fun.

[dean_martin]

The latest Stereophile mentioned that the new Roksan Kandy integrated is out at $1795 with phono stage and it's getting good press across the pond.

The Creek Destiny integrated with phono stage has been bragged on too. Apparently, the phono section in it is so good that Creek is going to release it as a separate.

The latest version of Magnum Dynalab's receiver is out also.

Doesn't Bryston have an integrated with optional DAC?

Give tubes a chance! I think the Pathos mentioned earlier is a hybrid. The smaller preamp tubes (12AX7, 12AU7, etc.) do not run hot, last many years and are inexpensive and easy to find if you get the urge to try different tubes. Power tubes, OTOH, can be a pain. If one goes out, ideally you should replace all of them with a matched set which can get expensive and bothersome. It's much cheaper to have a pair of preamp tubes on hand for replacements. Check out some hybrids. (Although you might want to hear an all tubed Manley Stingray for the heck of it.)

Of course I haven't heard any of the above. Keep us posted on what you're able to hear.

[Ajani]

The latest Stereophile mentioned that the new Roksan Kandy integrated is out at $1795 with phono stage and it's getting good press across the pond.

The Creek Destiny integrated with phono stage has been bragged on too. Apparently, the phono section in it is so good that Creek is going to release it as a separate.

The Kandy K2 is actually $1595 per Stereophile :biggrin5: and has received a heck of a lot of great press across the pond from What Hifi, Hifi Choice and Hifi World... I'm looking forward to Art Dudley's review of it for Stereophile... Though with a budget of $3,500, I think JM should be checking out the Roksan Caspian instead...

The Destiny is Stereophile Class A and has received rave reviews globally... It's constantly described as sounding like a best of both worlds between tubes and solid state... and at 100 watts it should have sufficient punch for any reasonable speakers JM might use on it... though if he really wants horsepower, then the Musical Fidelity A5.5 is the best way to go...

JM - have u considered grabbing a pair of MF 550K Superchargers??? they are available all over for just $2.5K now and you could easily get a $1K Pre to go with them... that would give u more power than U should ever need....

[dean_martin]

what's the latest Plinius model and what's it going for?

The first integrated I auditioned about 10 years ago when I got back into this hobby was a Plinius driving a big pair of Martin Logan speakers. It definitely had punch and deep bass, but I don't remember it being on the warm side. It was built like a tank though.

[budgetaudio76]

This is a great thread. Now im drooling over that tube enabled preamp...And at work they throw peanuts on the floor and we scramble for them...some people get almonds tho, but they are the only one who scrambles for it tho...sorry> bad joke:D

[Auricauricle]

Were they the Almond Brothers?

[blackraven]

Take a look at the Van Alstine Integrated. I've heard it and it has a neutral to slightly warmer sound and its dead quiet. Unfortunately his equipment does not have that visual wow factor that most people like to have. He has a 30 day no questions asked return policy and Frank Van Alstine always answers his phone and will give you detailed spec on his equipment.
Each piece is custom built as the order comes in, thats how he keeps his costs down.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/control_amplifier/index.htm

JM, take a look at the VA 440H high current solid state amps, they can drive 1ohm loads, they are rated at 220wpc at 8ohms and 440 at 4ohms. His Hybrid Tube amp can drive 2ohms and is rated at 250wpc at 8ohms and 500wpc at 4ohms.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/comparison_grid.htm

[Feanor]

Take a look at the Van Alstine Integrated. I've heard it and it has a neutral to slightly warmer sound and its dead quiet. Unfortunately his equipment does not have that visual wow factor that most people like to have. He has a 30 day no questions asked return policy and Frank Van Alstine always answers his phone and will give you detailed spec on his equipment.
Each piece is custom built as the order comes in, thats how he keeps his costs down.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/control_amplifier/index.htm

JM, take a look at the VA 440H high current solid state amps, they can drive 1ohm loads, they are rated at 220wpc at 8ohms and 440 at 4ohms. His Hybrid Tube amp can drive 2ohms and is rated at 250wpc at 8ohms and 500wpc at 4ohms.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/comparison_grid.htm

BR, I mentioned AVA futher up the thread. Like I said, were I starting from scratch, I'd give it serious consideration.

Snazy up you AVA with set of Audio Note-style knobs like THESE (http://www.partsconnexion.com/product8536.html) from Parts ConneXion. Well, some might consider they a bit gaudy, so maybe THESE (http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=525) Exodus knobs from DIYcable.

[RGA]

You want your last amplifier with sufficient power to drive 86db or higher sensitive speakers with a bit of warmth but not veiled all day listenable. Then the integrated amp that is IMO the best SS integrated amp on the market for music reproduction and not pyrotechnics is the Sugden A21a Series 2.

The amplifier has an outstanding power supply and can drive 85db 4 ohm speakers with ease. So much for high watts mattering a damn.

I auditioned an old beat up Sugden A48b on paradigm Studio 100 V2 speakers and it sounded far more musical than Musical Fidelity's much newer top of the line integrated amp. The latter did have more air and slam but was much worse on vocals and had a two dimensional thinner bass line.

Do not be put off by the 20 watts - pure class A single ended - been selling for over 30 years in the Brit market where most speakers are of the low efficiency variety - your speakers are a cake walk. http://www.badaweb.co.uk/practicalbolton/extra67.html

http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_18&products_id=1558

http://www.audioconsult.dk/anmeldelser/sugden/A21rev.htm

If you have more money and want the more powerful version there is the A21SE http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sugden/sugden.html

[JohnMichael]

Thank you all for some great suggestions. I have located a few of them locally and will be listening to a few soon. My speakers are small enogh I might be able to take them with me. Of course different rooms and sources may make it tough to choose. I really want to stay away from bright and thin electronics.

Another question and I have read some negative posts about this brand but thoughts on Vincent TubeLine SV-236MK? I have read positive reviews in both Absolute Sound and Stereophile. Any thoguhts or experience with this model. This is a hybrid with tubes in the preamp and transistors in the power amp.

I also realized why I was becoming with the Onkyo. I was using the wrong interconnects. I own two pair of Micropurls and one sounds better than the other due to a change in how they ground the cables. The first pair I purchased sounded great and they were serial number 9600. Since I liked them so much I ordered a pair for the phono preamp to int. amp. They had a serial number in the 8000 and did not sound as good. I missed the return time but wrote the company to complain about the differences and received a nice reply that they had noticed the same problem and changed the way the cable was grounded. The Micropurls have three ribbons of copper so they can be used in XLR connectors but in rca plugs they decided they sounded better with the center ribbon as a floating ground and the top and bottom ribbons for the pos and neg. After my move and in a hurry to hear music I used the wrong set of Micropurls. The 9600's are back in and now I have the detail and image focus I had been missing and that slight edge in the highs is gone.

[RGA]

I can't comment on the specific model but my experience with hybrids has been a mixed bag. They don't sound bad in general but not much really sounds "bad."

I personally believe that the belief about hybrids generally goes as follows:

1) My speakers are hard to drive and or sound bright and fatiguing.

This leads to

2) I will buy a tube amp on the belief that tubes will tame the fatiguing treble and add body or 3 dimensionality to the sound. Which in some cases is probably true.

But the tube amps don't have the drive to power low impedance dips which usually occur in the bass so it can get flabby.

Solution - the SS power amp will still have the grip in the bass but tubes will fix everything else.

All of that makes some sense except that the underlying issue never got fixed and the paper over the cracks solution may work for a time but the hybrids still exhibit the leaness and that is after all the last part of the hybrid amp that is sent to the speakers.

None of the best tube amp makers make hybrids because they believe in tube superiority and IME they're correct. SS makers believe in the superiority of new and better measurements and more power is best. None of the best of these makers makes hybrids. The hybrid makers are filling a profit making market IMO.

If you believe in tube superiority then buy speakers that are low power amp friendly. There is ZERO reason to buy inefficient loudspeakers - there are zero advantages to inefficient loudspeakers. Not even price - there are good inexpensive very easy to drive speakers from the likes of Audio Note, Omega, Tannoy, or even more mainstream like Klipsch or Energy.

Many tube amps self bias - so really it's as difficult as changing a lightbulb. Sure power tubes don't last as long as preamp tubes but if you look at an EL84 based amp like mine you'll get 8000 hours on average from the tubes - that's a long time.

The Sugden A21a as I mentioned earlier is far closer to the best tube amps than any hybrid switching amplifier. The Sugden is a SET but solid state. Hybrids are push pull designs and may not be class A.

[JohnMichael]

Well I think I will be trying the Portal Panache at home for the 60 day trial they offer. My interest in this amp is due to it being a power amp with a built-in passive volume attenuator and selector input. I have read of many folks who enjoy running cd players directly into an amp for more transparent sound. This amp is rumored to be a Nelson Pass design. I think it will be able to drive any speaker I might purchase in the future. If all goes well Monday will be the order day and then much pacing until it's arrival. Will keep everyone posted.