Suggestion needed to upgrade my stereo

[EliotB]

Hi,
I am just new born to this forum. And also I am a newbie to the customized audio component system. Please forgive me if my post does not make any sense to you guys! Actually I wanted to make a stereo system, focus particularly on CDs. I am not looking for a Dolby or HT; just like to stick to the old school stereo.
Few months back, one of my friends helped me buying the following equipment:

1. AV Receiver:
Yamaha HTR6030B (below is the specification)
Min. RMS Output Power:
Front Channels - 100 W + 100 W (0.9% THD) (8 ohms, 1 Hz)
Centre Channel - 100 W (0.9% THD) (8 ohms, 1 Hz)
Surround Channels - 100 W + 100 W (0.9% THD)
Dynamic Power (1 kHz): 8/6/4/2 ohms - 110/130/175/185 W
Frequency Response (CD): 10 - 100,000 Hz -3 dB
Total Harmonic Distortion (50 w/8 ohms): CD (Main Speaker Out) - 0.06%
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: (CD) 100 dB (250 mV)
Dimensions (W x H x D): 435 x 151 x 318 mm
Weight: 8 kg

2. Floor standing speakers:
JBL – STAGE (below is the specification)
Frequency Response (–3dB): 47Hz – 20kHz
Max. Recommended Amplifier Power*: 150W
Power Handling (Continuous/Peak): 80W/320W
Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 90dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms
Crossover Frequency: 600Hz, 3500Hz
Low-Frequency Transducer: 6" (170mm) PolyPlas,™ shielded
Midrange Transducer: 4" (100mm) PolyPlas,™ shielded
High-Frequency Transducer: 3/4" (19mm) Titanium laminate dome, shielded, EOS™ waveguide
Dimensions With Grille (H x W x D): 34-3/4" x 9" x 13-1/8"
Weight per Speaker: 31.2 lb/14.5kg

Also I use a Panasonic DVD player (around 80 bucks) to play my CDs.

However, I am not satisfied with the quality that I am getting. My preference is clearer and more of the acoustic focused high frequency performance. I am not sure if the components that I have right now do not have the ability to produce good quality sound! I want your suggestion how can I make a good stereo by upgrading or adding other components to what I already have. My wife will kill me if I throw my current one!
Please guide me. You help/suggestion is greatly needed.

Thanks
Eliot

[O'Shag]

A Killer system for around 5k

Amp: Mark Levinson No.27 used -$1,500 -2,000
Cable from Pre to amp: Madrigal/Levinson HPC RCA to Camac 1mtr. used - $200
Preamp: Carver 4000T used - $350 (yes you can do better but at what price?) still a great preamp for the money
Speakers: Acoustic Zen Adagio used - $1,800 or even better Monitor Audio Gold Reference 60 (orGold Signature 60)
Source: Cambridge Audio Azur 840c CD player/dac used - $800
Cable from source to preamp: Kimber Cable Hero rca to rca: $110 used
Speaker Cables: so many choices in and around $200 used

Total: $5,460

[blackraven]

EliotB, whats your budget? I would consider upgrading your speakers and CD player first.

Consider these CD players from low to high price-

Marantz SA5003, Emotiva ERC-1 based on RoadRunners recent review, Music Hall 25.2CDP, Cambridge Audio 640c, 740c. Rega Apollo, Marantz SA8003 SACDP, Cambridge Audio 840c to name a few. The Emotiva is the Red Herring of the bunch. Its brand new by a company that makes good products at a lower cost. You may even want to consider looking at their amps and preamps. www.emotiva.com

If you like high frequency performance then the Music Hall and Cambridge Audio units would be the way to go. They excel in the high frequencies. You should be able to find a used 840c for about $1K.

For speakers consider Paradigms, B&W, Epos, Dynaudio.

For cables and speaker wire- www.bluejeanscable.com

Your AVR will do for now and upgrade it after you have upgraded your speakers and CD player.

[Mr Peabody]

If you were wanting stereo why did you buy an HT receiver? Any way you did, here are a couple things you might check with your current gear and not scrapping what you already have.

First, if you are NOT using a digital connection to the receiver, do so. This will allow the internal DAC of the receiver to decode the music signal and it has to do a better job than an $80.00 DVD player,.... I'd hope. If you did buy a better dedicated CD player, when listening be sure to utilize the "Direct" or "Bypass" mode, whatever Yamaha calls it, the mode will allow the analog signal from the CD player to bypass all that internal HT stuff and go directly to the preamp.

I haven't checked your model but Yamaha has been pretty good about putting preamp outputs on their receivers. You could add a power amp for the front main speakers. The receiver's amp is alright but if you get a dedicated power amp to drive the JBL's you will notice a difference. I'm not familiar with the Emotiva but they are priced good and have a 30 day return. You can also pick up used Adcom for cheap on Audiogon. I personally would recommend a 555 or 5500 which are both 200x2, good amps for the money.

If you don't have a sub yet, you could try adding one to see how you like that. Setting the receiver's crossover to send the low end to the sub and pull some out of the mains will ease the burden on your receiver's amp and possibly add some clarity to the JBL's. What frequency to set the crossover to will take some experimentation and depends on your personal taste and room interaction.

If you have friends who have audio gear you may be able to borrow a sub or amp to see if any of these options impress you.

[EliotB]

EliotB, whats your budget? I would consider upgrading your speakers and CD player first.

Consider these CD players from low to high price-

Marantz SA5003, Emotiva ERC-1 based on RoadRunners recent review, Music Hall 25.2CDP, Cambridge Audio 640c, 740c. Rega Apollo, Marantz SA8003 SACDP, Cambridge Audio 840c to name a few. The Emotiva is the Red Herring of the bunch. Its brand new by a company that makes good products at a lower cost. You may even want to consider looking at their amps and preamps. www.emotiva.com

If you like high frequency performance then the Music Hall and Cambridge Audio units would be the way to go. They excel in the high frequencies. You should be able to find a used 840c for about $1K.

For speakers consider Paradigms, B&W, Epos, Dynaudio.

For cables and speaker wire- www.bluejeanscable.com

Your AVR will do for now and upgrade it after you have upgraded your speakers and CD player.

Thanks very much for your reply. I have read your detailed suggestion. I am thinking my speakers at this moment and will look to add/upgrade my other components. Speaker, may be sometimes later.
About budget, I am thinking of doing it around or less than 1000$. If it's not possible to make a good sound, then I will exceed, but in that case I have to upgrade phase by phase!
Anymore ideas will be appreciated. Thanks
Eliot

[EliotB]

If you were wanting stereo why did you buy an HT receiver? Any way you did, here are a couple things you might check with your current gear and not scrapping what you already have.

First, if you are NOT using a digital connection to the receiver, do so. This will allow the internal DAC of the receiver to decode the music signal and it has to do a better job than an $80.00 DVD player,.... I'd hope. If you did buy a better dedicated CD player, when listening be sure to utilize the "Direct" or "Bypass" mode, whatever Yamaha calls it, the mode will allow the analog signal from the CD player to bypass all that internal HT stuff and go directly to the preamp.

I haven't checked your model but Yamaha has been pretty good about putting preamp outputs on their receivers. You could add a power amp for the front main speakers. The receiver's amp is alright but if you get a dedicated power amp to drive the JBL's you will notice a difference. I'm not familiar with the Emotiva but they are priced good and have a 30 day return. You can also pick up used Adcom for cheap on Audiogon. I personally would recommend a 555 or 5500 which are both 200x2, good amps for the money.

If you don't have a sub yet, you could try adding one to see how you like that. Setting the receiver's crossover to send the low end to the sub and pull some out of the mains will ease the burden on your receiver's amp and possibly add some clarity to the JBL's. What frequency to set the crossover to will take some experimentation and depends on your personal taste and room interaction.

If you have friends who have audio gear you may be able to borrow a sub or amp to see if any of these options impress you.

You know what thats the problem. AT the time my friend helped me buying, I did not know that I will like old school high quality stereo better than crappy HT of these days!!
As you have guided about adding a power amp wih my yamaha AV Receiver, I am not sure if my Yamaha receiver have any. I have attached an image of the back side of my receiver. Would you please check this out or visit the yamaha website (http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/HTR6030B.jsp) and please let me know if my receiver can be connected to a power amp or so.
My budget is very much around 1000 or less. Thanks for your suggestion.
Eliot

[Mr Peabody]

I couldn't make out much on the picture but from the list of ins/outs it shows at least one "analogue out" which should work for an amp. I suspect this output is a selectable option where you choose either speaker "B" terminals or the pre out. I noticed the sub out does offer a nice selection of crossover frequencies. I didn't see mention of the "bypass" mode but I only went to that first page. You could essentially do the same thing by using the L/R inputs of the multichannel analog input.

If you buy used you can get a decent amp for $500.00 or $600.00 and have money left over to apply some place else in the system.

[EliotB]

So I have realised that may be adding a amp is a good idea. If I go for an integrated amp; I am getting two options here:

1. Cambridge 540 (V2)
2. Audiolab 8000SE

Can anybody please suggest me which one is better. Thanks

[Mr Peabody]

Elliot, are you talking about getting an integrated and doing something else with the receiver, or, adding an amp to the receiver. If adding an amp, you want a power amp. With a power amp the receiver would be the preamp section. An integrated has a pre and power amp in one box.

Check this integrated out: http://www.spearitsound.com/shanling/shanling_a3000.asp

If you want power amps; www.spearitsound.com has a set of 250 watt B&K monoblocks for $1150.00 that would rock the JBL's. They also have a Proceed Amp 2 (by Mark Levinson) for $699.00 used. I'm not sure what the power is, I'll let you look this one up :)

[EliotB]

Elliot, are you talking about getting an integrated and doing something else with the receiver, or, adding an amp to the receiver. If adding an amp, you want a power amp. With a power amp the receiver would be the preamp section. An integrated has a pre and power amp in one box.

Check this integrated out: http://www.spearitsound.com/shanling/shanling_a3000.asp

If you want power amps; www.spearitsound.com has a set of 250 watt B&K monoblocks for $1150.00 that would rock the JBL's. They also have a Proceed Amp 2 (by Mark Levinson) for $699.00 used. I'm not sure what the power is, I'll let you look this one up :)

Thanks Peabody for reply. I am actually thinking for an alternative. May be I will use my receiver to connect the TV for DVD/Video need; for 5:1 system. And get an integrated to replace my receiver and add a dedicated CD player. Please tell me as I am getting a deal here with a Cambridge 540/640 v2 amp and 540 cd player in around 1000 CAD. Will it be any good? Will this combo make a significant improvement to what I have right now? I have to use my JBL anyway. Or shall I go for Audiolab. It will force me to pay about 600 CAD more! That's why I may go for cambridge. Again if it brings a significant improvement. Thanks
Eliot

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not familiar with Audio Labs. The Cambridge will certainly give you more detail and faster response but how significant you will find it I can't say. Every one's ears and impressions are different. The thing I wonder is if the Cambridge will have the power you want and how you perceive the clarity or lack of distortion. When first getting into higher quality gear some times the volume level we listen at is louder than perceived because the sound remains clean and some times a more controlled bass is perceived as a lack of it. Is there any integrated amps in your area you can audition? Or, can you buy new from a source that will allow returns if not satisfied? Most online dealers will allow a 30 day trial. It may be worth the extra money to buynew to make sure it's what you want before laying out the money.

I hope this makes since and I mean no offense. I'm not sure how much experience you have. I remember a friend of mine coming over and we were listening to my system, I had some Krell gear at the time, imagine my shock when he thought I needed an equalizer. It was because he used JVC with a sub and he just didn't understand what he was hearing despite the high quality. He still was looking for a big sloppy boom. Not that every one would react that way but it was an eye opener that not every one immediately appreciates the difference. Ifeel like I'm digging myself a hole here :) It's always best to audition if possible though.

[JoeE SP9]

Mr Peabody:
Like you I hear comments about my lack of tone controls and equalizer. They always ask. "Why don't you have an equalizer"? My standard response has become. "Why, does it sound like I need one"?
After listening for a while they start asking how they can make their system sound like mine.
"How do you get it to sound so clear and clean? What do you do to make every instrument sound so real?"
I tell them it's the choice of gear and the setup that does it. I also mention that I've used equalizers, range expander's, tone controls and other gadgets in the past. Now that I have better gear my need for sound altering devices has gone.

[Auricauricle]

Here's where I would like to step in fer a moment and wonder if eq's are a good idea to spice up shabby recordings. Although most of my music is CD, there are quite a few recordings I have made over the years, with various idiosyncracies due to various equipment used, conditions of the source material and operator error (moi). I presently use a rotary graphic eq, with fairly good results, provided that their employment isn't heavy handed. I also like to diddle in playing back some CD's to emphasize certain ranges of frequency that are more aesthetically pleasing or were not given enough juice in the original recording. Why all the animus? Is this rationale not reasonable?

Your confused, befuddled and ever tweaking,

Auric

[EliotB]

I will be looking for detail, warmer, acquistic sound, rather than high volume. I am really interested for the quality of sound, which is clear and detailed.

[masterbeth]

your speakers are ok.. but your receiver sucks! get a levinson or a lexicon if u got the money... and by the way, that plan of yours to use a power amp, add a 2 channel 10band equalizer between the receiver and the amp... i bet u already know what this does... if you will connect the receiver to the amp directly, you'll just get power, not sound quality... which i bet is what you are upto...

since i didnt see hdmi on you system. use optical or coaxial cables in connecting your dvd player to your receiver. (its still Digital)

cons if u are using a receiver+power amp. config would be..

you have to adjust the volume thru the power amp and not from the receiver (it depends if the output level of the receiver is fixed or not.. but commonly its fixed!

[LeRoy]

Hi,

About 4 or 5 years ago. I tried to build a quality 2 channel for as close to 1K as possible and actually be satisfied with it. The result of my efforts is that it did not work out.

Consider that I bought a T-AMP $30.00 based on all the wonderful reviews at the time. Of course I also had to buy the power supply $20.00 that went with the T-Amp and also had to get an adapter from Radio Shack to be able to plug my Pioneer DVD/CD player and paid about $5.00 for it. As best I can recall I paid about $90.00 for the Pioneer player.

I had my sights on getting a pair of Epos ELS 3 bookshelf speakers and when I took the T-AMP to the audio shop to see if it could be a match...well it was not a match.. as the amp could not handle a 4 ohm speaker. So, I bought a pair of Polk Audio RTI-4 speakers $250.00/pr but found it too bright and back they went to Tweeters. I then bought a pair of Usher S-520's $400.00/pr. The Polk and Usher's are 8 ohm speakers. I also bought some cheapo speaker wire, 10 ft pair and paid $20.00 for them. I thought I was doing alright until I realized the limits of the system of my under $1K system. ( Anyone reading my post to this point must be getting a good laugh right now) :)

What a moron! I spent $565.00 not including tax and shipping charges only to find out what a bad concept I had to begin with in trying to get into audio heaven on the cheap.

So, I would suggest that you take time to do your research, visit your local audio dealers, and audition, audition, and audition until you find the audio that suits your tastes and preferences and then decide how much you are willing to spend to get what you want.

I finally put together a system (this year) that I enjoy very much and it's just a tad under $2K.
NAD 545 BEE CD Player (new)
Rega Brio 3 Integrated Amp (gently used)
Nola Mini speakers (gently used and purchased in 2007)
Chord Carnival Silver Screen speaker wire 8 ft/pair (new)
Chord Cobra 3 interconnect 1 meter/pr (new)

Good luck in your audio quest.

[02audionoob]

It all depends on individual standards but a decent system in my view can be had for $1k with used equipment, especially if you're not buying speakers. Quality used equipment by Rotel, NAD, Adcom, Marantz and Kenwood would all outperform the HTR's for two-channel and can be acquired on a tight budget. I'd take an old NAD integrated over a Yamaha HTR, any day of the week....and I'd have $800 of my budget left for a CD player.

[Mr Peabody]

To clear something up, if you add a power amp to a receiver and can't adjust the volume then you have it hooked up to something other than the PREAMP OUTPUT. Using the PREAMP output is just what it says a tap off the preamp so volume or any other adjustment in that realm will work. I'm not a big advocate of this configuration but it is popular and can be a stepping stone. Certainly adding better quality power and more of it wouldn't hurt anything and will yield some gain.

[drmorgan]

Here's where I would like to step in fer a moment and wonder if eq's are a good idea to spice up shabby recordings. Although most of my music is CD, there are quite a few recordings I have made over the years, with various idiosyncracies due to various equipment used, conditions of the source material and operator error (moi). I presently use a rotary graphic eq, with fairly good results, provided that their employment isn't heavy handed. I also like to diddle in playing back some CD's to emphasize certain ranges of frequency that are more aesthetically pleasing or were not given enough juice in the original recording. Why all the animus? Is this rationale not reasonable?

Your confused, befuddled and ever tweaking,

Auric

Hi Auric,

I think that EQ's belong in our preamps because we can compensate for the material, the room or even our mood. They added a 'loudness' control that limited the midrange and accented the low so it would not drown out conversations. With the separate treble and bass it was extremely limited. Those three are heavy hammers for fine tweaking. My preamp allows expansion and contraction of source material (McIntosh calls it a Compandor), and five ranges of enhancement or reduction through the entire range with their EQ. I would guess that model is long out of production, but someone must make similar, but call it other than (C34V).
Good luck..

[Mr Peabody]

I've not used a Mac EQ and they may do better but the majority of EQ's from 70's/80's were a gimmick and mostly introduced distortion. Audio Control had some pieces that I suspect do pretty well though. Some of theirs even included the analyzer with room microphone. It sound like what you are talking about Auric would keep you equalizing before or during each recording. I had an EQ one time in my car and that was the last one because I ended up doing that, trying to EQ with each recording. It drove me crazy so I just set the system up to the best neutral sound and dealt with the fact that a bad recording is just a bad recording. Another train of thought it's anti-purist. Some even go direct to amp eliminating preamps. But if an EQ is what you enjoy I'm sure the audiophile secret service will not be knocking on your door to scurge you any time soon.

[Auricauricle]

Well that's a relief, Mr. P! I thought by bringing up the "E" word I would be baished to the woods forever! I agree that the temptation to constantly fiddle; fortunately, my wife uses lots of duct tape to keep me seated when the music comes on....

dbx produced companders too, which did rather well as long as they were used judiciously. I emphasize the last word as they were apt to "breathe" if over applied. I use one every now and then when listening to minidiscs that have been compressed during recording. Like the eq's, a li'l dab'll do it!

[LeRoy]

Eliot, here is a review that you may be interested in. I have never auditioned any Parasound gear so I can't comment on them at all.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue42/parasound.htm

http://www.positive-feedback.com/

[EliotB]

A local dealer is offering the following:

Integrated amp:
Cambridge 540A V2 - around 500 CAD
Cambridge 640A - around 600 CAD or a little more may be
Atoll IN100 - 900 CAD

CD Player:
Cambridge 540C - around 500 CAD
Atoll - 900 CAD

I am planning to replace my Yamaha receiver with an Integrated and add a dedicated CD player with my existing JBL speakers. My concern is any of the above components are good enough for a quality stereo. I will welcome if anyone please suggest me. Thanks

Eliot

[drmorgan]

Well that's a relief, Mr. P! I thought by bringing up the "E" word I would be baished to the woods forever! I agree that the temptation to constantly fiddle; fortunately, my wife uses lots of duct tape to keep me seated when the music comes on....

dbx produced companders too, which did rather well as long as they were used judiciously. I emphasize the last word as they were apt to "breathe" if over applied. I use one every now and then when listening to minidiscs that have been compressed during recording. Like the eq's, a li'l dab'll do it!

They go way back to when Bozak make his mixers for the clubs. Thing is when marketing gets involved things got out of hand.

The compander seems only useful in my experience with various kinds of tape or if you want to mimic a drunk vocalist. You can not judge a system except when all are not equalized.

Gads, duct tape... those were the days. Now it is tasers we must fear.

[Mr Peabody]

Here's pricing on the Cambridge here but I don't know the conversion;
http://www.spearitsound.com/Cambridge_Audio/cambridge_audio_home.htm?gclid=CJeW_8btjJsCFRpN5Qo dgVZXpA

The 540 will be and improvement especially with the matching CDP it's just hard to tell if it will be what you are looking for. Any chance the shop will allow an in home audition? Sorry, not familiar with Atoll.

[Auricauricle]

Gads, duct tape... those were the days. Now it is tasers we must fear.

Don't encourage her! OW!