Michael Fremer article follow up or Put together your audiophile system

[Rudy Gireyev]

Hello.

My name is Rudy and I have been researching an audiophile grade system for myself for just a bit over a month or so. The system will be for musical reproduction only, no home theater duties. I have been reading these forums, to get a basic understanding of what's out there before posting a set of questions that have already been asked a thousand times. I've also tried a Stereophile magazine however, I quickly realized that they only review things at the very upper end of audiophile world. My few brief stops at AudioAsylum left me with the impression of the exact opposite, that they concentrate of consumer grade or beginner audiophile systems.
Anyway, to get to the point of my post. Reading several threads on these forums as well as a blog article linked by Ajani in the Why we need Audiophiles thread. I noticed several people on this board as well as Michael Fremer stating that one does not need large/huge/enormous amounts of money to put an audiophile system together. Now Michael Fremer actually named the amount albeit not the components that would make up that amount. Which is unfortunate as I, for one, would have loved to see what they are. So this leads me to you guys. Here is a thread where you get to put together an entire system from scratch. Everyone is welcome to contribute, of course, not just the people who have said that you don't need enormous amounts of cash to build an audiophile system. I realize that the enormous amounts of money is subjective, so I will leave the final amount up to you.
One thing that will help me, and anyone else reading this thread later, is if the folks posting would state their biases/prejudices and such. Be they sentimental or budget related or musical style or bass style or many many others that we carry around in our inner pockets. This will help me frame what you are suggesting and see how it relates to me. Another thing that will help me a lot is if you state whether you have first hand experience with what you are recommending or whether it is a product of research or something entirely different. So here are the categories:
1. Preamp if separate from amp of course.
2. Amp
3. Speakers
4. Sources (List as many as you like. At the end you may include just one in the final price tally or all)
5. Cables
6. Misc (Whatever I may have missed as a category :))

For each category it would be great to get some background as to why you selected this particular component over others that you compared them against. And if there are biases/prejudices that are specific to that component it would be great to see them as well. Apologies if I am asking for too much, but the more info I gather the more informed will my auditions be, even if I choose to do blind auditioning. You may quote new or used prices, or better yet both. Forum rules permitting even a link to where the particular component sells for a good price is always welcome.

Thank you in advance and take your time, as I don't plan to rush this kind of purchase.
Rudy

[02audionoob]

I notice you mention sentimental value. I've been thinking about cleaning out a bit of my system, but I hold onto things that I like for no particular reason. Sometimes I think I'd like a simpler system, but I just can't let go of some of it. I suppose maybe I'm committed forever to vinyl, for one thing.

If I had no records and no audio gear and was starting from scratch, I think I'd probably go with something like the Audio Research VSi60, the Rega Saturn and a pair of ProAc Response D1. That's probably something like $10,000 at new retail prices and tax. In the interest of the disclosures you requested...I do have an Audio Research integrated that I'm very happy with. I own ProAc floorstanders that sound similar to the D1 I've mentioned. I don't own a Rega CD player, but I've listened to a Saturn in an Audio Research tube setup and it was mightily impressive.

In my own system, my digital audio comes through a DAC, which is for practical purposes a better option better than just a nice CD player. It allows me to get a high level of sound quality out of three digital devices running through it, instead of just one. But still, I like the idea of simplicity...I just haven't followed through with it.

[Doc Sage]

I find it interesting that you would approach us with this request for I think you will end up with so many point of views and will find no clear path to choosing a music system. Finding the right system is a long search, an education into how each pieces relate to each other.

To start, you will need to listen to lots of speakers. They all have a particular sound and need for amplification. Once you find a speaker you truly want to live with, they will dictate what you need for amplification. I would set aside 50% or more of your budget for speakers. They are the only true transducers left in a sound system, the last one to have a "voice", a signature that will impose "colouring" (Eh, I am Canadian and this is how we spell COLOURING) to all music played by them.

For amplification, the efficiency of your speakers (and the load they will place of your amp), the size of the room these will be playing in and the style of music will tell you how much power you will need. More bass = more power needed, same for loundness and a large room will need a lots of watts.

The source is in flux these days. Cd players are on their way out (so some will tell you), MP3's are very user friendly but the sound quality is not the best at times, using your computer as a storing device is an option (with the right software and a better sound card) and LP's are still seen by some of us as the only way to go.

Cables to connect all this together are important but please do not get caught up with all the hypes. A large gauge, speaker wire does not need to be expensive to do the job right and so is all the other connectors.

So, what route have I taken? My speakers are Josephaudio RM25's, the best I could find within my budget. My room is quite small and the load from my speakers is very easy so a small Sudgen intergrater (25 to 35 RMS watts a side) does the job quite well. CD's is still my first choice and I am using a Marantz DVD player for most of my listening. The whole set up could be had for around $5,000-.

Enjoy the search.

Doc Sage

[O'Shag]

Of course Michael Fremer's idea of not large/huge/enormous amount of money may be considerably more that you are willing to spend- which brings us to that question - your budget... You can put together a really good sounding system for between 5-6k (mostly of used gear). Is this lower or higher than your idea of a budget? another consideration is the type of music you listen to. For example, if you like a lot of beat driven music (which covers a lot) where boogie factor is important, you would not be making the wisest choice with a SET amp. Just an example.

[Mr Peabody]

For the most part I agree with ole Doc Sage, this will make for a varied discussion and most of us who are regulars know what the other will probably recommend. Just for instance, speakers, there are so many kinds you would have to listen to get a feel, Planars, Electrostats, various box designs and horns, did I miss anything. I'm not sure this will narrow your field if that's your goal.

Where Doc and I part ways is I would not set a dollar figure or percentage of budget for any one part. I personally am a source theorist. If any detail of the music doesn't come from the source you will NEVER hear it, period. So you can color, make it loud, whatever but you can never hear that unretrieved detail or ambient information. So start with the best signal you can and then maintain it throughout your audio chain. I guess another fork in the road is I have found through experience that cables can enhance your system. But this is something you can experiment with once the gear is picked because some hear the improvements from cables and some seem not to.

There are various types of amps, tubes, digital or various classes of solid state. With out either a budget or knowing what type of sound you prefer it's difficult to put a system together for you. Another thing I subscribe to for the most part is I like using same brand equipment within a system. To my ears same brand systems seem to have better synergy. Most manufacturers whether they admit or not have a certain sound and keeping with pieces with similar sound the end result is usually more cohesive. This is in general.

I have heard a fair amount of gear but not nearly all that's offered. For pure power, dynamics and transcient response I like Krell amps. You can go from a $2,500.00 integrated to how much ever you have to spend. If you see my signature it is really what I prefer. I eventually went tubes and love Conrad Johnson's interpretation of music. CJ typically has a nice pace, since of rhythm, outstanding midrange and delivers a full frequency response free of the stereotypes given to tube gear. Hands down my favorite speaker is Dynaudio. Seconded, by Martin Logan electrostat hybrids.

If on a smaller budget I'd look at brands like NAD, Cambridge Audio or Rotel. Speakers by Paradigm. B&W offer a budget line as well and they have their following, especially with Rotel. As previously mentioned I stick with same brand so I'd go with one of these integrated amps and matching CD players. Unless I really had a desire to get into tubes. On a budget I'd try Cayin, Jolida or Audio Electronics (by Cary), AE would probably be my first choice.

I may have misspoke. I actually have a second system I tried to keep on a budget for a workout room. I knew I needed power, so I went with Adcom separates driving a pair of Dynaudio Audience 60's. My regular source is a CJ DAC using a Denon player as transport. Several year ago I paid about $1k new for a gtp-450 preamp/tuner and a gfa-5400 (125x2). I later bought a gfa-5500(200x2) for $400.00 used and sold the 5400. I was using Transparent but stepped down to Blue Jeans cable. At high volumes the overall system was less offensive with the lesser cables. Transparent allowed more highs which got hard on the ears at extreme volume. The room is more live than it should be which don't help. If this was a system to sit back and enjoy pure music listening I'm sure I would have gone another direction though. If you want a system that rocks, this one sure does with plenty of volume and bass.

Cables: Absolute bang for the buck, Blue Jeans are hard to beat. From there I might try Tributaries. Beyond that I prefer Transparent and certain series of Siltech. It really is a matter of preference and system synergy for cables and, of course, whether you hear enough difference to warrant the expense.

I hope this helps some but it's the best I can do with no parameters.

[drmorgan]

I think one starts with what kind of music moves you. When you compare the hardware forget the look, type or brand and look for how well the speakers reveal or revive those feelings. I took my favorite records to the stores with a test record from 20/20. First I need the speaker and then the electronics. I wanted to hear the 20/20, then my music. This should be completely subjective after the test. Ignore the glitz and smoke and mirrors, The speakers are all. Speaker makers have various sizes for your room and you will then match the amps to the speakers. I've been amazed to find the costs have gotten so out of hand for something so simple as sound reproduction and to see them using the same process that brought computer pricing down to 20% of what it was and yet the sound outfits have reversed this and have not accomplished anything beyond what we had in the '70's. My quest began from exposure as a child to weekly visits to a great concert hall. Later on to live concerts of much different music and mixed with the contemporary music. It was a decade spending on this or that before I happened on Bozak speakers. Based on room size they ran from hall to bedroom and outdoors. Any good turntable, preamp and amp could drive them and reproduce the ‘feeling’ that I heard for years. Bi-amp’d they could faithfully reproduce the rest of the music I appreciated. I wound up with McIntosh 2300's and '70's and '80's Mac hardware because it was quality and hand made. They had tube and outgrew them going into the ‘70’s. I do not think you need to spend a fortune as you can buy gear used if it was built to last. Just buy the hardware based on proof (not the ads or maker claims) of no distortion. I found records seem somehow more realistic (maybe the noise as If actually in the crowd?), but some quality CD's seem OK. MP3 or 4 is just not enough data to recreate all. Records add to the experience as you become somewhat involved. You are purchasing the 'feeling' that you are there with the orchestra, artist or instruments you wish to hear, what moves you. Your room, mood, type of music and artists and speakers ....the rest is just stuff. Printed specifications should be verified. The speakers should reproduce what moved you and the rest is bliss.

Good luck...

[Rudy Gireyev]

Thanks to all that have replied so far, and that are going to reply. :)

02audionoob Thanks for the impartial suggestions. If I may I have some follow up questions regarding your choices.
1. What made you select these components over others that you have auditioned?
2. Why did you select these particular speakers? Were they the best just before the point of diminishing returns began to be crossed, or was there another reason? Were they good with any amp or this particular amp? What are their characteristics warm, natural, bassy .... etc?
3. What are the characteristics of the amp warm, natural, bassy .... etc? What made it stand out when compared to other amps you auditioned?
4. Any other insight you may be willing to offer.

Doc Sage - I heartily agree with every word of your posting. In the many days I've spent reading and researching, this message has come through quite clear. I also appreciate you adding it here as you never know the background of another person. Rest assured I plan on auditioning extensively before plunking down that kind of cash. ;) :) However, in the audio world there are two almost distinct variables of a piece of equipment that have to be taken into account. First one is how it sounds on its own and second how it pairs up with some other specific piece of equipment. A perfect example would be one set of speakers sounding spectacular with one amp and downright awful with another. Now auditioning may reveal to me the first variable, that is how a certain piece of equipment sounds compared to another in that particular store on that particular day. However, to find that perfect synergy between two components (or more) requires outside help. There's just too many iterations here. This is what brought me to post on this board and to phrase my questions the way I did. And the more questions are answered the more helpful the advice will be.

O'Shag Howdy to a fellow Angelino. Actually the two things you are asking for were left out of my original post on purpose. ;) :) In your post in this thread, as well as another thread you've indicated that one need not spend ridiculous (not an actual quote) amounts of money to get an audiophile system. However, you never identified what that system would contain. This thread is your opportunity to do so. :) Ideally if you could follow my original post as close as possible when defining the system that would help me the most. However, I'll appreciate whatever you have to offer.
Lastly, I might as well put the musical style horse to rest. I don't have a musical style that I listen to. I will listen to anything that I like, from just about anywhere in the world. There's really only two kinds of music for me. Music I understand, and music I don't understand.

Mr. P Huge thanks for the extensive background with your selections. I remember reading about your gym system. Although something that "single purposed" would not work for me, the discussion around it provided a valuable background. I also liked the way you defined a "Starter Audiophile" system and "Standard Audiophile" system. :) I understand your question about my budget, however, I did not give it on purpose. The system you are putting together is _your_ system, and the budget is _your_ budget. The guiding budget factor is "reasonable" which for every person is different. No matter. This is what _you_ find reasonable and most importantly why. The context to me is as important if not more as the actual list of components that you guys provide.
I naturally have some follow up questions. :)
1. By transient response of the Krells, you mean they are neutral/natural in sound? Neither warm, nor overly aggressive on the highs?
2. Are there other Dynaudio lines you thought highly of, besides the ones you have? What was it about them that made them your favorite? Do they have some specific characteristics?
3. Same for Martin Logans.
4. On the cables front, do these manufacturers only make one line of specific cable or are there multiple? If there are multiple can you identify the model names/numbers for the ones you meant in the post.

drmorgan Thanks for your reply and the speaker suggestion. Agree with everything you said 100%. And while I'm looking for even more info (see my original post or my replies above) I appreciate this as well.

Rudy

[Worf101]

It's so refreshing and nice to see a rational, informed and educated "first post". I'm an HT midfi guy so I've not many recommendations for you in the dedicated 2 channel audiophile realm. But I can tell you that the approach and questioning are first rate and I'd be quite surprised if you didn't find just the information you're looking for. Once again "welcome".

Da Worfster

[Mr Peabody]

O'Shag Howdy to a fellow Angelino. Actually the two things you are asking for were left out of my original post on purpose. ;) :) In your post in this thread, as well as another thread you've indicated that one need not spend ridiculous (not an actual quote) amounts of money to get an audiophile system. However, you never identified what that system would contain. This thread is your opportunity to do so. :) Ideally if you could follow my original post as close as possible when defining the system that would help me the most. However, I'll appreciate whatever you have to offer.
Lastly, I might as well put the musical style horse to rest. I don't have a musical style that I listen to. I will listen to anything that I like, from just about anywhere in the world. There's really only two kinds of music for me. Music I understand, and music I don't understand.

Mr. P Huge thanks for the extensive background with your selections. I remember reading about your gym system. Although something that "single purposed" would not work for me, the discussion around it provided a valuable background. I also liked the way you defined a "Starter Audiophile" system and "Standard Audiophile" system. :) I understand your question about my budget, however, I did not give it on purpose. The system you are putting together is _your_ system, and the budget is _your_ budget. The guiding budget factor is "reasonable" which for every person is different. No matter. This is what _you_ find reasonable and most importantly why. The context to me is as important if not more as the actual list of components that you guys provide.
I naturally have some follow up questions. :)
1. By transient response of the Krells, you mean they are neutral/natural in sound? Neither warm, nor overly aggressive on the highs?

* "transcient" is how fast the amp can react. Krell has delivered some of the most real sounding drums I've heard from a system and the control they have over the music helps. Krell is more analytical than some like but the highs are extended with out being offensive
2. Are there other Dynaudio lines you thought highly of, besides the ones you have? What was it about them that made them your favorite? Do they have some specific characteristics?

* Dynaudio is surprisingly similar throughout their series. Although I think they are trying to distinguish them a bit now. I really like the Focus but that series seems to be a bit warmer than other Dynaudio series. In general I like Dynaudio because they are as neutral a speaker as I have found. By that I mean they are equally as good with most any amp as long as they have the guts to drive them and any genre of music. I'm like you in the fact that I listen to most any kind of music. My Dyn's have sounded great with Krell, Arcam, Conrad Johnson, Linn and my other series have had several other amps driving them to vintage Sansui. With the power Dynaudio excels in excellent bass response, I'm talking quality bass. The Excite series is designed to be easier drive for more budget systems. As you go up in the Dynaudio various series you do gain refinement and better overall performance. My Contour t2.5 was the best I could afford, I really liked the sound, they were better refined sound than the 1.8's. I also like the fact that they were supposedly designed to be equally at home in a stereo rig or HT set up as I use them for both. The front port is good for not much space and sitting close to other objects which also fits my room.

3. Same for Martin Logans.

* ML's basically sound similar from one to the other, the biggest difference is the size and type of bass module. The electrostats are hard to put into words, they have a lot of detail and give more of a 3D presentation. But they lack the physical feel of a box speaker. The larger powered version hits pretty hard though.

4. On the cables front, do these manufacturers only make one line of specific cable or are there multiple? If there are multiple can you identify the model names/numbers for the ones you meant in the post.

* BJC RCA interconnects I have are the LC and they only have two kind I know of. I'm not that familiar with the varies series of Tributaries but they have 3 levels in the HDMI cables. Transparent and Siltech both have a large varity of series mostly going up in price. An entry Transparent RCA will run about $75.00 to $80.00. I like the Siltech MXT Pro New Yorker RCA and they run around $300.00 I believe. They have less expensive in that series, they are all named after cities, Paris, London are a couple. The Siltech sound great and are built well. The speaker interconnects have a threaded end so switching terminals are a breeze. I should say a breeze if you buy their threaded terminals :)

drmorgan Thanks for your reply and the speaker suggestion. Agree with everything you said 100%. And while I'm looking for even more info (see my original post or my replies above) I appreciate this as well.

* one thing I question is the use of "any", no matter how good Bozak are I can't believe any amp will give you a live sounding reproduction. Maybe with the insertion of the word "quality" or "most" any. And, Mac isn't just any amp.

Rudy[/QUOTE]

I am out of time, let me know if you have any more questions or want to price out my hardware.

[JoeE SP9]

Hello.
1. Preamp if separate from amp of course.
2. Amp
3. Speakers
4. Sources (List as many as you like. At the end you may include just one in the final price tally or all)
5. Cables
6. Misc (Whatever I may have missed as a category :))

Rudy Most if not all of my selections are used items.

1. A used ARC SP-10 preamp. I've owned an ARC SP-9 for 10 years or so. My previous preamp was an ARC SP3. The SP-10 is the best preamp I've heard.

2. This is determined by the speakers. 2 used Krell KSA-100 I had a KSA-100 years ago It was sold only because of an acrimonious divorce. I don't think current FPB Krells sound as good. A couple of large Pass amps are an alternative, used of course.

3. Used Apogee Studio Grands. I've heard several cost no object speakers including Wilson's, Infinity IRS's, ML Statement's, Apogee Grand's and others. The Apogees were better. I didn't select them because my room isn't big enough. The Studio Grand's will fit.

4. VPI HRX TT this would be a new unit. My HW-19 Jr/RB300 has served me well over the years. Not sure about the cartridge, maybe a Lyra Helicon
Marantz SA 8003 SACD player. New This would replace a modified Marantz CD-63 SE
that still works perfectly.

5. Wires and cables would require actual auditioning with the system. I might start with Kimber KCAG. I like their cables and some of my audio buddies use them

6. Misc. Who knows, it depends on many factors. Definitely a Jem Dandy record cleaner. It works great and is inexpensive. It works better than my Record Doctor vacuum unit.

My selections are based on my experience and the opinions of friends on this site and here in Phila. I'm 61 and I bought my first piece of gear in 1967.

The cost for all this is variable, as most of this gear is available only used.

[O'Shag]

Rudy hi - I'm in Redondo Beach so the southbay area pretty much.

Some names for component electronics (in no particular order) that are not gospel by any means but that will without exception provide a good result.
Audio Research
Mark Levinson
McIntosh
Spectral
Pass Labs/Threshold
Jadis
VTL
Sonic Frontiers
Cary
DCS
EMM Labs
Wadia
Meridian
Esoteric
Accuphase
Ayre
Rowland
Conrad Johnson
Marantz

There are more that are just as good.. and I have heard components from each listed above.

Speakers, well thats another story, given the difference in preference peole will have, and I dare not express opinions or preferences because they're bound to piss some or other people off. But, given your preference for all types of music, then this will include a lot of beat driven music, such as rock and blues. You can get wonderful results with planars, but for this type of music the cone and dome dynamic speaker is likely best suited. Of course that'll drive planar owners up the wall, but the fact is 99% of mastering studio speakers are cone and dome dynamic transducers (transjuicers). Personally, I love well-engineered horns/compression drivers too.


All above can be pricey (but not necessarily always), even on the used market, but will invariably be excellent at conveying music, although each will have a subtle variation on the music's presentation, and each will have ultimate strengths.

Could you afford to spend 5k-7k?

[Mr Peabody]

Joe E, do you still have Krell, if so, why not in your signature? I agree, I prefer the older Krell sound. It seems to have a blacker background and not be as cool sounding as the new stuff, not that I'd call it warm either, just that the new gear has almost a glare, for lack of a better word, when compared to some other gear. "Glare" is not a lack of clarity, it's more of a feel or what you notice not in the other piece in comparison.

[02audionoob]

Thanks to all that have replied so far, and that are going to reply. <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:24pt; height:24pt'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->

02audionoob Thanks for the impartial suggestions. If I may I have some follow up questions regarding your choices.
1. What made you select these components over others that you have auditioned?
2. Why did you select these particular speakers? Were they the best just before the point of diminishing returns began to be crossed, or was there another reason? Were they good with any amp or this particular amp? What are their characteristics warm, natural, bassy .... etc?
3. What are the characteristics of the amp warm, natural, bassy .... etc? What made it stand out when compared to other amps you auditioned?
4. Any other insight you may be willing to offer.

I think my answers to questions 1, 2 and 3 are very similar...so I’ll try all in one.

Beginning with early adult life my point of reference was my Marantz 2325 receiver and 6300 turntable with JBL speakers. It was a solid system for its time. Little did I know at the time, it's almost the stereotypical (no pun intended) mid-fi system of the 1970's. I later acquired my Kenwood Basic components and a Pioneer CD player. The performance of the Pioneer was very good for its time. The quality of the Basic series still holds up. It has developed a cult following...again, little did I know at the time.

In recent years I decided to start experimenting. First up was Adcom. Good reputation. Affordable. I matched the GFA-535, the GFA-545II and the GFA-555II amps with the GFP-555, the GFP-565, the SLC-505 preamps and GCD-575 CD. These were bought used and now only the GFP-555II and GCD-575 remain. The speakers I used with them were first the JBL S-series and then an upgrade to the Focal Cobalt series by JM Lab. The optimum for me seemed to be the GFA-545II and GFP-565, so I still have them...but the Adcom system has been demoted to the bedroom and the GFP-565 is up for sale locally.

And then came the current system you'll see in my profile - the Audio Research CA50, Music Hall CD-25, PS Audio DLIII, ProAc Tri-Tower, etc. I suspect my beginnings with the Marantz equipment still affect my preferences. The Focal speakers have been replaced in my main system mostly because they are bright for my taste, although they seem less so when paired with the Marantz or the Audio Research than with the Adcom. In fact, I suspect for many the Focal bookshelf speakers would be a nice fit with the 50-watt tube amp. They're efficient and detailed. The brightness would likely be easily tamed by most tube amps, but maybe my room is a little too live or my Audio Research amp has a bit of a sharp edge as compared to other tube amps. I don't really know. I was able to solve it with my ProAc floorstanders and got a very nice upgrade in soundstage and midrange with the deal. You would think I'd be getting better bass now with the floorstanders, but I'm not so sure. I still sometimes supplement them with a sub. These are designed as home theater speakers, so they’re tall and thin. The bass drivers in the Tri-Tower are smaller than in the D1, but there are more of them. I sometimes think I'd like the D1 better.

So after those past and present experiences I learned I have a preference for smooth presentation and precise soundstage. I can live without big power. My music tastes have begun to lean heavily toward jazz, classical and solo vocals...especially female...so that's a bias that affects my thinking. Now I search for detail and warmth on a budget. I wouldn’t dream of auditioning anything without my Wynton Marsalis CDs. My budget has increased in recent years, mostly just due to the increased value I've begun to place on the quality of sound. After doing some of what you're doing...searching forums, posting threads, reading reviews, etc...I came to some decisions on what type sound I wanted to pursue and what types of components that could provide it. I even auditioned more Focal speakers but their presentation of female voices seemed to recede when I want it more forward. I’m on a mission to reduce sibilance, too. I think I’m there on the digital side, but I still find myself attracted to the Rega Saturn. The vinyl ssetup can sstill annoy me a little ssometimes.

The components I chose for my ideal system meet the criteria I've come to at this point, based on the travels described above. They're in a budget I could deal with. They produce the mids and highs in a detailed and slightly warm way that I've learned I like. They produce enough bass to support the overall sound but not distract. Similar equipment could be had for half of retail on the used market, so that could also be a track I’d follow in putting together my ideal system. After all, if I decide I can spend $10k on a setup, I could potentially get $10k worth of used equipment for $5k or $6k. At that point maybe I’d add a turntable.
:14:

[Rudy Gireyev]

It's so refreshing and nice to see a rational, informed and educated "first post". I'm an HT midfi guy so I've not many recommendations for you in the dedicated 2 channel audiophile realm. But I can tell you that the approach and questioning are first rate and I'd be quite surprised if you didn't find just the information you're looking for. Once again "welcome".

Da Worfster
Thank you Da Worfster for the Welcome and for the kind words. Some of that information is already coming in.

* "transcient" is how fast the amp can react.
Ahhh so you actually meant transient as in transient. :) Hmmm maybe that will make more sense once I start the auditioning.:confused:

Dynaudio is surprisingly similar throughout their series. Although I think they are trying to distinguish them a bit now. I really like the Focus but that series seems to be a bit warmer than other Dynaudio series. In general I like Dynaudio because they are as neutral a speaker as I have found. By that I mean they are equally as good with most any amp as long as they have the guts to drive them and any genre of music.
Wow if this pans out to be the case, then this Raider of the Lost Ark will have definitely discovered a huge piece of the puzzle. Sounds very very promising.

Thanks for the Cables clarification

I am out of time, let me know if you have any more questions or want to price out my hardware.
Thanks for the offer, I just might take you up on it, although it will be some time down the road. Now that I'm finishing up my "homework" and after the auditioning process begins. If it takes weeks then in a few weeks and if it takes months well then ....

Most if not all of my selections are used items.
I'm totally OK with that. It seems like on the high end of things, more times than not, used stuff is as good or better than some new stuff.
Thanks Joe that is some great gear you've got listed. Some follow up questions:
1. For the gear listed can you give me a couple of words, as to why you chose it over some of the other stuff you auditioned or even researched.
2. Again for the gear listed if you could put into words some of their dominant or apparent characteristics as seen by you.
3. About the Marantz SACD 8003, what did it go up against to win a place in your system?

Thanks Joe.

Could you afford to spend 5k-7k?
Hmmmm this question from you makes me nervous, as I realize that I'm unable to communicate clearly enough what I'm after. You see, you are not putting together a system for me. That job is taken by me, Rudy. :) I'm asking you O'Shag to put together an Audiophile system for you O'Shag, at your budget. Let's say I'm asking you to roleplay a game where your place burned down and you received insurance money and now need to build your system from scratch. :) In your mind you will go through the process of selection of your gear. Pick out what type of gear you will buy, which model you selected over other models, higher or lower priced, their attributes and characteristics that you found preferable. And maybe even some "golden pairings" that you found between components. My request is that you put the said selection process to pen so that I and anyone else who reads it can form a relative base, a frame of reference, which they can use in their own audition process later on. I'm basically trying to extract from you, your auditioning experience. Since to me that will be much much more beneficial than receiving a list of makes or models to look at and evaluate.

Rudy hi - I'm in Redondo Beach so the southbay area pretty much.
Ahhh back in my married days we lived in an apartment complex right on the corner of Artesia and Aviation. Beautiful area, very hip, young and densely populated. :) These days I'm near the Corner of Bundy and Wilshire. Kind of a crossing point of Santa Monica, West LA and Brentwood. Anyway, if you have any favorite spots that you hit up for auditioning I'd love to get a list of that as well. Hopefully if Tommy and other Angelinos respond, I'll hit them up for that additional bit of info as well. :)
TIA

Rudy

[Mr Peabody]

02, I'm glad you mentioned how as you learned to appreciate audio gear you were increasingly willing to spend more. I can't remember which thread this came up on before but many here don't seem to understand that point. You learned to appreciate audio where some still have passion for other hobbies first and audio second then want to criticize or put down others who spend more money on audio.

I wasn't offering to sell my gear, I just didn't have a chance to post what I paid or the price range, I didn't know if that was important. However, if I sold my CJ preamp I'd love to upgrade to a CT-6 and I do have a Krell 500i I could part with.

[theebadone]

Hello, I too am working with a limited budget. Thats why i find my local craigs list very helpful in putting together a decent system that could hang with the big boys with an unlimited budget. Just yesterday there was an mcintosh 6100 posted for 500.00, a set of klipsch lascala speakers, a set of paradigm monitors, and a nice set of wharfdales modus 8 for 100.00. I think if you work at it a person could put a decent system together for around 1200.00 anyone would be proud of. just my .02 cents worth

[Feanor]

This sounds like fun. I'm always up to day-dream about my ideal system.

I'll go for it right now. The following list observes some contraints:

Stereo, not multi-channel
Must fit in my current listening room; (I'm building a system, not a house).
US$ prices, new, in the mid-range: see the total price tag.
Speakers:
Magneplanar MG 3.6; magneto-planar plus ribbons. Approx. $5000.Subwoofer:
Rythmik Audio F-15 Direct Servo 15". $900Power Amplifier(s):
Wyred 4 Sound SX-500 pair. ICEpower switching amps. $1800 pair. (Here I skimp.)Preamplfier:
BAT VK-3iX; fully balanced tube. $3500. (Here I splurge.)SACD Player:
Marantz SA8300. About $1000

Digital-Analog-Convert (DAC):
Benchmark DAC1 USB. $1300Music computer:
Intel or AMD multi-core; Windows 7; two, 1.5 terabyte external drives,24" montor. Fubar2000 audio player. About $1200.Interconnects & speaker cables:
Blue Jeans Cable. For everything <$250.TOTAL BITE:
Under $15,000, excluding taxes, shipping, etc.

[JoeE SP9]

Mr. Peabody:
In that post I mentioned the Krell was a casualty of an acrimonious divorce. I'm just glad I came out of it with my LP's and CD's.

Rudy:
My current equipment list is a give away about my selections. Most of the gear in the list I have had for quite some time. I've been using Audio Research pre-amps since the early 80's. My first pair of planar speakers were bought new in 1976. The VPI was bought in the middle 80's. The Dyna MK-III's were built from kits purchased in 1973(?). They have been extensively modified to the point that the only remaining Dynaco parts are the transformers. My Haflers have been modded according to the POOGE articles published in The Audio Amateur years ago. As should be evident by now, I buy gear with long time ownership in mind.
My selection of power amps is dictated by the speakers. The Marantz SACD player, well who else makes an "audiophile" grade SACD player that's not ridiculously priced? Besides my CD-63SE is still working fine after 15(?) years. I've been involved with this obsession since I was 20. I'll be 62 in September which will make it 42 years since I bought a Fisher KX-90 integrated amp kit as my first piece of gear. So, I've had many years to develope my personal taste in gear.
So, my choices are based on extensive experience with gear over a long time.

[RGA]

I would listen to completel systems - components change with what they're connected to.

My bias is to HE / Single Ended tube amplifiers. You may prefer high power with LE speakers. But listing components as if a given preamp will always be better in every system is IMO a "lie" perpetuated by the industry (magazines and makers and dealers). The best digital I have heard is from Audio Note and in a different system it was quite terrible. The component approach will likely yield an endless upgrade path - good for the dealers - not necessarily for you.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you should price out a starter AN system. Do they still offer the single box CD player at $2500.00? It's not easy to find a place to audition AN though or even dealers in the states. It would seem if any where though possibly LA.

[drmorgan]

Hi again Rudy,

I've maintained that the artists, record or media producers together with your ear and listening space will do the coloring. You will want equipment that will faithfully deliver the art and yet allow you to add any coloring you or the space needs. Also that you will want to have a system that will give you pleasure without breaking the bank or in need of service.

I arrived at my approach after concluding that the science of faithful sound reproduction had been settled for a very, very long time. I've not learned any secrets which suggested otherwise.

To get back to your request:
Believing that speakers must faithfully deliver a wide range of sound that is accurate and should be capable of presenting the same as made:
Bozak Concert Grands B410 (because I agreed with Bozak's idea that his arrangement of drivers would deliver only what the artist made). Biamping helped when we moved to larger space. The 302a worked in normal rooms, but in dead large, heigh ones, the Grand's were great.
McIntosh 2300's because they can deliver on Bozak's promise (no distortion).
McIntosh's C26m C28 or C34V preamps because coloring became more possible as they engineered it and we liked nearly all kinds of music.
Beogram 4002 Turntable because it is slightly better at tracking vinyl records than others I'd tried, but a Sony TTS 3000 system that compensates sounds as well on the same records.
CD Player.. Sony about any model because they've been reliable and tracking a CD is not difficult (and the Pre-amp can compensate for error or add my prejudice).

This system worked well in rooms from 10' high, 20' wide and 25' long. It worked best in rooms 65' long, 30’ wide and 26' high too. Worked in rooms with heavy drapes, leather or cloth furniture and in those with hard wood or soft wood walls and nothing but one preamp failed.

I added a host of other gear such as FM tuners (MR67, 78 and 7082), Sony and Teac Tapes and have auditioned all the present and past great name hardware. The stuff I’d bought in the mid ‘70’s into the early ‘80’s still sounds well and delivers. I had the benefit of friends in the business of making records and artists over the years. I was surprised to learn we shared a lot of equipment choices and experiences getting it right. That does not prove anything. Lot of ears and rooms, music preferences. Music was important to us, so budgets were not. We had it on all the time and never tired of it. I’m downsizing just now as I enter my 70’s with the Bozak’s 302a and some of the Mac gear built earlier. My first equipment was built from kits offered by Harmon Kardon (Citation Series) and tube stuff. I have nothing good to offer as to special cable or speaker leads. Radio Shack worked well but Monster #10 was fine for the 65’ run.

I was lucky enough to have consulted with Rudy Bozak from the late ‘50’s to his retirement as too Saul Marantz before he ran onto hard times and sold out to Superscope. We had the expertise of qualified, licensed sound engineers from the 60’s into the ‘80’s. I would not buy any gear that can’t reproduce the full range of sound I can hear proved by a professional Test record and validated by music that I know well and have heard in person and on a system that I found credible. The one I choose was not the only one that did so, but for our reasons worked out well. In fact it worked well for over three decades and still does! Paid for service after sale... Nothing to date. Junked some stuff from major makers.. You bet! Accurate, faithful sound reproduction is easier than coming up with a reason to buy one brand over another. Keep your objective in mind and test only with the eyes closed. Good luck on the quest.

[hifitommy]

to have a high end system. high end is the sound, not always the price. one can get going with some NAD electronics, canadian speakers (energy, psb, paradigm), a used tt from agon or asylum ads, a cart from AT or grado via a net order, and say a sangean HD tuner or used tuner from a pawn shop (fisher rack mout system tuners arent bad).

here in LA we have a wealth of brick stores to go and hear things in not to mention used record stores.

joining the LA/OC Audio Society will soon reveal where many of these places are. but there are these:

shelley's in sta monica or woodland hills

evolution in agoura

LA audio video on western ave

upscale audio in upland

gnp in pasadena

many others actually and most are amenable to home audition.

my system can be viewed at the asylum and much of it is affordable stuff.

[Mr Peabody]

Upscales website has a page full of trades/demos/specials, that would be a great place to visit as they have a huge variety of brands.

[drmorgan]

Hi Rudy,
Most of the posts here indicate they're happy many differnt brands. Different budgets and probably different space and music favorities.

Here is the info on the test record that will let anyone start knowing the hardware works properly (and to maintain it later).

Columbia Labratory, STR 100 (must be updated by now and one for CD's as well)
Starts with a sweep test from 40-20,000. (each channel)
Spot Frequency Test from 1,000 to 20,000. This with voice identification of what you should hear.
Channel Separation Test
Tone Arm Resonance Test 200 cps to 10 cps.
1000 CPS reference tone to validate both right and left channels are correct.
Wavelength Loss and Stylus wear test
Compliance and Phasing test (tests both verticle and horizontal tracking and woolfer phasing.
Once you have a group of components that pass you can pick and choose and add with an EQ for your preferences and room.

By the way, wire is wire: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Russell does a great job explaining how and why wire became a marketing gimmick. An ohms meter will validate any you select. The laws of physics still applies.

[Mr Peabody]

Wire is not wire, no matter what articles you pull off the internet. The Mac guy went against the grain to make publicity for himself and his company. Like any product there's bound to be one that doesn't do what it says but for the most part people will notice gain from better cabling. This is something one just has to try for themselves with an objective mind. You have to have gear that is good enough to reflect the difference and as any other component in the audio chain performance can vary with synergy of the system. To say you can measure sound with a volt meter is ridiculous, if that was so most all components would sound the same whether it's an amp or what ever. Sound of cables is a hotly debated topic and I'd urge any one not to take any one's word at this but definitely try for yourself. The naysayers could keep you from a valid gain in performance while if you are one that doesn't hear enough gain to warrant the expense then you wasted money. Any shop that sells higher end components has loaner cables or online dealer will allow 30 day trial. So nothing is lost by trying and then you will know which camp you will be in.

If one has been reading this site I'm sure you've read one of the many prior debates on this site that have been about cables

[JoeE SP9]

I agree with Mr. Peabody. At one time I too thought all wires sounded the same. Having a brand new BS EE only gave me more courage to push that idea. In the last 30+ years as my gear got better and my reliance on textbooks grew less my own hearing made me realize that all wires and cables are not equal.
For those that can't hear the differences different wires and cables make, that's good for you. It means more money to spend on CD's and LP's. If you can hear the difference I'm not going to preach to the converted.
If you are ambivalent, borrow from a local retailer or try some from an online resource with 30 day return privileges. If you hear no difference return them and you've lost nothing. If you do hear a difference, have fun. You can now spend time, money and effort finding the ones that sound best in your system to your ears.
BTW:
Equalizers, expanders, companders and other "gadgets" can and often do mask the differences that cables and wires can exhibit.
IOW:
The simpler the system the more audible small differences become.

[Mr Peabody]

Good point about the EQ, I didn't even think about that.

[mlsstl]

JoeE SP9 said: "Equalizers, expanders, companders and other "gadgets" can and often do mask the differences that cables and wires can exhibit."
That also gets back to the fact that most things in engineering (and life in general) are compromises. If one is having a speaker/room interaction that is solved by a parametric equalizer, that could easily be an improvement that is vastly more desirable than any change offered by a speaker wire.

Some systems are also more sensitive to differences in RCL, even to the point of instability. One should point out that having a system that is more sensitive to those factors does not automatically translate to "better." Having a high-strung system is not a guarantee of performance.

There is also the issue, in some cases, that fine-tuning a system's frequency response with expensive cables on a trial & error basis can be a rather back-assward way of essentially installing tone controls.

My experience has been that speaker wire and interconnect differences are usually fairly subtle when one does hear them. I do tend to find the hyperbole some write with rather over-the-top. I think they do a disservice to the hobby of high fidelity when the language gets too grandiose in describing differences.

Of course, balanced perspective is often the hardest thing for a human to possess!

[Mr Peabody]

I would agree that the differences between good cables can sometimes be subtle but the differences in a typical cable like come in the box and a quality cable are significant. You are welcome to come over to do some listening and cable comparisons if you wish. Or, if you wish, your place, then you can do the switching and i can see if I can still hear the difference. I traded my Transparent to IBStormin but I have my Siltech and can get some Transparent from MFP. I also have some BJC now.

[02audionoob]

Hi Rudy,
By the way, wire is wire: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Russell does a great job explaining how and why wire became a marketing gimmick. An ohms meter will validate any you select. The laws of physics still applies.

That's a pretty amazing unilateral statement to make in an audio forum.

[hifitommy]

"By the way, wire is wire: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Russell does a great job explaining how and why wire became a marketing gimmick. An ohms meter will validate any you select. The laws of physics still applies."

that is until you clean out your ears with q-tips and get some real equipment. i dont know what equip you have but with decent separates one should be able to discern cable diffs either speaker or interconnects.

whether the diffs are from bing 'better' sounding or different sounding is another story. you must make up your own mind here. naturally the diffs are quite subtle but are assuredly there. and its not that i am advocating high priced wires, just affordable alternatives.

there is a myriad of affordable wire that sounds good-AQ type 4 speaker cable, and many others. aq, cardas, kimber, blue jeans, etc all make various priced wire. or you can just ust what come free or cheeeeep. home depot extension cord for speakers is reputed to be purty good. i use malibu lighting wire for my rear channels because it is big enough and durable.

wire however is not just wire, it has its own sound.

[mlsstl]

Mr Peabody said: "...but the differences in a typical cable like come in the box and a quality cable are significant."
Since there is a subjective value attached to the differences between things, it is only natural that people will each place a different weight on the significance of what they hear.

To me, a "significant" difference falls in the category of how a Klipshorn sounds compared to a Quad 57, for example. There are unquestioned major differences that affect which is better suited for a particular listener. Those two products are in major-league contrast to each other and few people would be unable to tell the difference.

Short of just using absolutely the wrong cable in a situation (e.g., unshielded telephone wire from a turntable to phono input where the sound is plagued by hum and buzzing) I've never heard any comparison between wires that I would put in the dramatic category.

I think we just need to be careful about the language used. It is just my observation that audiophiles often seem to have a flair for the dramatic when describing things. This can be so overboard that it ultimately damages their case, especially when non-audio enthusiasts are listening to the conversation.

Just my two cents. ;-)

[hifitommy]

just checking-i wrote:"naturally the diffs are quite subtle but are assuredly there"

[mlsstl]

hifitommy wrote: 'just checking-i wrote:"naturally the diffs are quite subtle but are assuredly there'"
My apologies if you took my comment about overboard language as a reference to you. Nope, didn't mean you.

However, anyone who has read any of the online audio forums knows there is no shortage of people who do get a bit carried away. ;-)

[hifitommy]

it was a backhanded way of showing others it can be done without being a fanatic. ohhhhh, i remember mtrycrafts and the chihuahuas, they were death on this kind of thing. and receivers were good enough for him too.

[02audionoob]

In the context of this thread, it seems like the question would not be whether you argue there is a difference with expensive cables but whether you would have them in your own ideal system.

[hifitommy]

and the rest of the necessary equipment that i would buy low end wire?? nope. THEN i would be ev aluating the $1K and up wire. i wouldnt go to marc c bloome for tires if i had a bentley now would i?

the more refined the system, the more you will notice differences like big buck aftermarket power cables and the like. but no sense in $1k cables in my system as of now. BUT i DO have a pair of acoustic zen silver interconnects that i won in the raffle at the LA/OC Audio Society meeting. and of course they occupy the preamp to amp spot.

and NO, i havent done a rabid comparison to the aq ruby cables that were there before. maybe someday.

[pixelthis]

That's a pretty amazing unilateral statement to make in an audio forum.


The truth is "amazing"?
I have a somewhat unique perspective on this subject, having been in law enforcement
for some years.
And hearing two "witnesses" argue about weather or not a perp is white or black(or, quote,,
a "mexican") pretty much shakes up your world view about what people perceive.
There is NO electronic difference between cables once you get to a certain q level.
the rest is between the ears, not in them, and a lot of cable makers make great scratch off of this self delusion.
I dont beleive in Santa clause, the easter bunny, or man loving lesbians either, BTW.:1:

[JoeE SP9]

I will stand by what I posted earlier. There are small differences in cables. The average receiver is not transparent enough to hear these differences. If someone does not hear those differences so be it. I can and people that visit can.I fail to see/hear what law enforcement or identifying "perps" has to do with the subject. Nobody here is attempting to identify a criminal. I'm reasonably sure those of us who hear differences in cables did not always think there were differences.
Only after being dragged kicking and screaming did I come to believe and hear these small differences. My first wife was (she had extraordinary hearing) the first person to make me believe. I ran some single blind tests with her and she could reliably hear different cables. After she began describing what she heard and didn't hear I began to hear and understand what she was describing. This took a little time because her descriptive vocabulary was different from "audio speak".
There is a lot more going on in wires and cables than you can measure with a meter whether it be a VTVM or DVM. Please don't regale me with links to web sites or textbooks. I have a BS EE and know all the technical reasons why wires are the same. In my system in my room there are audible differences. I invite anyone close to come over and we'll do some listening and comparing. No matter what the results it should be a fun time.

[02audionoob]

The truth is "amazing"?
I have a somewhat unique perspective on this subject, having been in law enforcement
for some years.
And hearing two "witnesses" argue about weather or not a perp is white or black(or, quote,,
a "mexican") pretty much shakes up your world view about what people perceive.
There is NO electronic difference between cables once you get to a certain q level.
the rest is between the ears, not in them, and a lot of cable makers make great scratch off of this self delusion.
I dont beleive in Santa clause, the easter bunny, or man loving lesbians either, BTW.:1:
The unilateral comment is amazing. To make a comment with such simple assumption of correctness without acknowledging that there is a debate to be had on the topic is amazing.

And...If there's a difference up to a certain q level, it's debatable where that q level is. Some people seem to think there's a difference between the free interconnects and the inexpensive ones, but not a difference between the inexpensive interconnects and the expensive ones. That sounds like a rationalization to me.

By the way...Just exactly what do you mean by (or, quote,,a "mexican")?

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you could have tried responding to the original post on this thread instead of fueling a flame war that has plenty of individual threads you could have gone to and drug back out. At this time both sides have made our point.

I'm guilty, it's hard to let statements go unchecked we feel strongly are not so but let's get this thread back on track.

[RGA]

RGA, you should price out a starter AN system. Do they still offer the single box CD player at $2500.00? It's not easy to find a place to audition AN though or even dealers in the states. It would seem if any where though possibly LA.

I don't really want to just recommend an AN system because for example the old AN Zero system while terrifically musical and the whole system under $5k there are various limitations that other systems would do quite a bit better and if you value those aspects then the Zero system would come up significantly short.

A few things
1) There are several Audio Note dealers in Los Angeles but the place to audition the best stuff is in Colorado - audiofederation.com

Three in California I know of are:

Deetes Sound Room
Audio Image Ltd.
True Sound

2) They have a new Absolute Zero system (more than $5k now though) and is their entry level - I have requested the system for review. http://audiofederation.com/blog/categories/high-end-audio/audio-note/

3) They have a new sub $3k cd player - it uses the solid transport that is being used in the top Sim Audio and Bryston machines. The reports from my dealer and a Bryston customer when I was in the store was that the AN one box was considerably better. Pretty tough to impressive the vocal Bryston guru's - they're nearly as bad as me.:yikes:

I am trying to get in some ARC, McIntosh, Shindo systems as well. The Shindo Field coil loudspeakers have been called some of the best available by ears I trust. But way way beyond most people's budget including way beyond mine.

[Rudy Gireyev]

Pix, you could have tried responding to the original post on this thread instead of fueling a flame war that has plenty of individual threads you could have gone to and drug back out. At this time both sides have made our point.

I'm guilty, it's hard to let statements go unchecked we feel strongly are not so but let's get this thread back on track.
Amen to that Mr. P. With the permission from the rest of you I'd like to forward the wire discussion to the wire forum, from this particular thread. :) ;) Not that the discussion has not been useful, rather because whatever needed to be said, has been. At this point we can simply state that the wiring calls for auditioning and leave it at that. Thanks to all of you for understanding.
If you feel you simply have to discuss something additional, keep in mind that neither headphones nor power conditioners have yet to make an appearance.

This sounds like fun. I'm always up to day-dream about my ideal system.

I'll go for it right now. The following list observes some contraints:

Stereo, not multi-channel
Must fit in my current listening room; (I'm building a system, not a house).
US$ prices, new, in the mid-range: see the total price tag.

Wow, thank you Bill. That looks great. Some follow up questions.
1. What were the components that this gear beat out? Why? Was it the sound quality, the price, something else?
2. Does the gear indicated have a characteristic? Especially considering you are a classical music buff. Example: Amp warm whereas speakers have very bright highs, or the opposite, and so on for the rest of the gear.
3. Now onto the computer stuff. I'm a computer programmer by trade, so this option is particular attractive to me, but it is difficult for me to imagine ( or dream if you will) of a possibility that a computer based system as a source will match a stand alone audio component. Anything you can offer to dispel my fears is most welcome hear.
4. Staying with the computer setup. We definitely need to mention the CODECs that are known to work in our audiophile world. Same would be true for the programs doing the encoding. Rippers is it? You've already mentioned the player so thank you for that.

I would listen to completel systems - components change with what they're connected to.

My bias is to HE / Single Ended tube amplifiers.
Thank you being up front about that.

But listing components as if a given preamp will always be better in every system is IMO a "lie" .......
Definitely agree with that particular sentence. One of my hopes for this thread was to find "Golden Pairs" components that are known to go together very well and complement each other perfectly.


Huge thanks to all who have replied and followed up so far.:thumbsup:
Rudy

[JoeE SP9]

Those of us who have been involved in this obsession for a long time have developed tastes, likes and dislikes. The gear we select is based upon those tastes. Some of the preferences we have may not seem rational to someone else.
For instance, I want nothing but tubes in a preamp. Speakers that are in boxes don't interest me at all. Equalizers and tone controls I can do without. Tube driven Eletrostatic speakers are something I can live with. Actually, I do and have for the last 10 years with my current speakers. What I'm trying to say is, you will develop your own likes and dislikes, form your own opinions and ultimately put together a system that satisfies you. It's getting to that point that's a large part of the fun in this hobby.

IMO:
For computer audio your best bet is to forget about CODECS. Store your music as wav files with no compression. If HDD space is a problem get bigger drives. Use drive mirroring to protect your music. As a programmer you know how unreliable HDD's are. I'm a soon to be retired Network Engineer (MCSE, CNE, Cisco, A+ etc) so I have lots of experience replacing HDD's. Sometimes I think HDD means "happy destroying data".
For ripping CD's EAC (Exact Audio Copy) is widely considered to be one of the best around. It does bit for bit ripping.
For computer based audio playback get a good (higher end) sound card and use an external DAC running off the SP/DIF interface. Then you can use your 2 channel system for everything with the DAC's analog outputs going into your preamp or integrated amp. Most of the players are pretty good as long as ASIO is used to bypass the Windows mixer. I've been trying them all and I may stick with Songbird (open source freeware). I've also been using Open Office as a replacement for Microsoft Office and am quite satisfied.

[02audionoob]

Back to the original topic - I think I might include a Squeezebox in my ideal system. I can't help it. I've got to have more stuff to tinker with than just a CD player.

[Mr Peabody]

Power conditioning is almost like cables, people are divided. I did not think switching a power cord would do anything. One day I borrowed some products to try and one was a Transparent power cord. It did make a pretty good difference. Enough I feel others could easily hear the difference. I kept the one I borrowed and replaced every one in my system that could be replaced. The most gain was noticed in my phono preamp and CD player. Power amps it helped some but the difference was more subtle. The effect was a much quieter background. It's not like you hear noise before adding the cord, it's what you notice not there after the cord. It's something you will probably have to hear to understand. The background is blacker and the sound is less restrained. The presentation has a more pristine quality. The other product I tried which I did think might help was a 6 outlet power conditioner. This went back. I suspect it didn't allow enough current to my Krell amp. The effect, it made the Krell's presentation softer, in a bad way, it decreased the attack or slam. Some years later I saw the PS Audio Quintessence and it mentioned outlets that did not limit current. I gave it a try and it helped my system. In much the same way as the power cords but more subtle, maybe because the cords were in place. I can see these types of products having a varied effect as every one has different electric items plugged into the lines and the service varies from one area to another.

In headphone there's only one word, Sennheiser. It seems here you are either a Senn or Grado person. I bought a pair of Sennheiser HD-600's and was blown away. I didn't know headphones sounded that good. Before buying I did audition some Grado models and they weren't my cup of tea. I found them exagerated in the bass with an overall warmth. I preferred the AKG's I was trying to replace. The HD-600's have a tight bass like I've not heard in phones before, the higher frequencies were extended without being harsh. I've purchased some 580's and a couple portable pair since, as well as a wireless pair for my daughter.

[pixelthis]

The unilateral comment is amazing. To make a comment with such simple assumption of correctness without acknowledging that there is a debate to be had on the topic is amazing.

And...If there's a difference up to a certain q level, it's debatable where that q level is. Some people seem to think there's a difference between the free interconnects and the inexpensive ones, but not a difference between the inexpensive interconnects and the expensive ones. That sounds like a rationalization to me.

By the way...Just exactly what do you mean by (or, quote,,a "mexican")?

One guy insisted the perp was black or "maybe a mexican".
Notice the quotes around it.
AND MY SCIENCE IS SOUND, but I really don't know why I should come up with
my own argument when there is such a well researched and put together web site already out there.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

You can chase shadows if you want, I prefer to spend my few bucks on stuff that actually matters, instead of an imported industrial grade item that is made to look like a "specialty"
product.
My favorite wire experience, I was in Walmart buying a battery, in the "car audio"
section they had some pinkish looking 12 guage wire meant for car installs.
It looked suspicuosly like monster cable so I bought a couple of rolls, it was cheap.
Some of the best speaker cable I ever had.:1:

[pixelthis]

Those of us who have been involved in this obsession for a long time have developed tastes, likes and dislikes. The gear we select is based upon those tastes. Some of the preferences we have may not seem rational to someone else.
For instance, I want nothing but tubes in a preamp. Speakers that are in boxes don't interest me at all. Equalizers and tone controls I can do without. Tube driven Eletrostatic speakers are something I can live with. Actually, I do and have for the last 10 years with my current speakers. What I'm trying to say is, you will develop your own likes and dislikes, form your own opinions and ultimately put together a system that satisfies you. It's getting to that point that's a large part of the fun in this hobby.

IMO:
For computer audio your best bet is to forget about CODECS. Store your music as wav files with no compression. If HDD space is a problem get bigger drives. Use drive mirroring to protect your music. As a programmer you know how unreliable HDD's are. I'm a soon to be retired Network Engineer (MCSE, CNE, Cisco, A+ etc) so I have lots of experience replacing HDD's. Sometimes I think HDD means "happy destroying data".
For ripping CD's EAC (Exact Audio Copy) is widely considered to be one of the best around. It does bit for bit ripping.
For computer based audio playback get a good (higher end) sound card and use an external DAC running off the SP/DIF interface. Then you can use your 2 channel system for everything with the DAC's analog outputs going into your preamp or integrated amp. Most of the players are pretty good as long as ASIO is used to bypass the Windows mixer. I've been trying them all and I may stick with Songbird (open source freeware). I've also been using Open Office as a replacement for Microsoft Office and am quite satisfied.

A FEW POINTS.
One, you dont need a soundcard with a usb dac.
Codecs are fine, especially Flac or windows lossless, if you can tell any difference you are a German shepard.
And external HD'S are one of the best inventions ever
Everything I have is on at least two drives, except the CD collection, which is on the CD collection.
One thing I don't understand, who is buying these "media servers" for hundreds, or thousands when a three hundred dollar E-MACHINE computer will do the same thing?
Or any old computer, or a home built one?

[RGA]

Definitely agree with that particular sentence. One of my hopes for this thread was to find "Golden Pairs" components that are known to go together very well and complement each other perfectly.


People often get on my case for suggesting system approaches but usually they follow similar logic only to a lesser degree.

Take the integrated amplifier - the best ones it is said have an advantage over separates because the two parts, Preamp/power amp are designed by the same manufacturer with short signal paths and are "perfectly tuned" to operate together. Makes lots of sense.

Then you have the makers that make great preamps and power amps - so you buy the matched pair and off you go. Makes sense.

But then you have the consumer who believes he/she knows more than the manufacturers. They buy a tube preamp from a maker who believes in tube superiority and that SS is to be shunned - shun the non believer - Charlie!! Then the consumer buys the preamp and then goes and drops large coin on a big SS power amp - the SS maker believes tubes should have died out decades ago and believes SS is technically superior and therefore is superior. I have seen people spend tens of thousands of dollars mixing such dissimilar designs and do what the makers themselves would be and are dead set against (not including the hybrid makers - personally have not heard a great one at any price).

But even those who do believe in the notion of system matching and synergy seem to always stop at the amplifier, when in reality the entire audio system needs to be viewed as ONE machine. From source to speakers in a 2 source system with preamp, power amp transport and dac - there could be more than 10 different cables in the system. Buy a new speaker cable or interconnect is pure luck if it works better or worse. Having the same wire from cartridge to speaker voice coil and every single wire inside the amplifiers and cd players and all the cabling connecting them would be more of a match if they were all exactly the same - I know of only a few companies that even think about this stuff because they have actual metallurgical engineering science behind them.

The system approach is starting to become more popular - and it makes sense for the consumer to actually hear the designer's intent. Krell now has speakers - so they have a complete system, and many others at entry prices like Rega are doing the same.

This is not to say that you won't prefer something else - say a different speaker or a different sounding CD player - but at least with the system approach you have an idea about the sonic aesthetic or sonic "goals" of the company. Of course there are system approaches that involve a mix and match of companies where both companies like to "show" together and you see this at the big trade shows. Wilson Loudspeakers are the choice of speaker for ARC amplifiers for instance so it makes a lot of sense that if you want to audition ARC why not audition them with what ARC believes is the best speaker - Wilson. Of course it backfires if you go and listen and you don't like it then you could conceivably cross both ARC and Wilson off your "to buy" lists. But makers like Shindo and AN have the same issue. If you don't like the system's sound then you may never buy anything from either of them. But these designers can live with that. Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note hates having his components auditioned out of system because if the sound is poor and his speaker is used with a SS amp the auditioner may blame the speaker even though he expressly states that they're designed for his amps. And if designing this is as much art as it is electronics engineering I have no doubt that they can be more than a little upset when in their view the poor sound was because of the SS amp.

Two recent system reviews - at stupid prices but it's important to hear this stuff at very high levels to see what is truly possible - and then work down to your budget

Shindo's crazy expensive system http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/mlroadtour1/roadtour.html

Audio Note's crazy expensive system http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/PDF_HT05_Audio_Note_engl.pdf

[pixelthis]

Wire is not wire, no matter what articles you pull off the internet. The Mac guy went against the grain to make publicity for himself and his company. Like any product there's bound to be one that doesn't do what it says but for the most part people will notice gain from better cabling. This is something one just has to try for themselves with an objective mind. You have to have gear that is good enough to reflect the difference and as any other component in the audio chain performance can vary with synergy of the system. To say you can measure sound with a volt meter is ridiculous, if that was so most all components would sound the same whether it's an amp or what ever. Sound of cables is a hotly debated topic and I'd urge any one not to take any one's word at this but definitely try for yourself. The naysayers could keep you from a valid gain in performance while if you are one that doesn't hear enough gain to warrant the expense then you wasted money. Any shop that sells higher end components has loaner cables or online dealer will allow 30 day trial. So nothing is lost by trying and then you will know which camp you will be in.

If one has been reading this site I'm sure you've read one of the many prior debates on this site that have been about cables
Wire is wire.
Simple as that.:1:

[Auricauricle]

You mean, "Agree to disagree but disagree to wire", Pix?

[Rudy Gireyev]

Those of us who have been involved in this obsession for a long time have developed tastes, likes and dislikes. The gear we select is based upon those tastes.
Precisely the info I am after.

Some of the preferences we have may not seem rational to someone else.
Well I can't speak for someone else. But for me personally. If you state your biases, likes and dislikes and then explain your gear selection process. The characteristics of the gear you chose and the characteristics of the gear you passed on. Those three will combine to give me a reasonably clear picture that I may or may not choose to use later on.

What I'm trying to say is, you will develop your own likes and dislikes, form your own opinions and ultimately put together a system that satisfies you. It's getting to that point that's a large part of the fun in this hobby.
This is a given and was understood to be so, long before this thread was started. The object of this thread is not to replace my own selection process, but to augment it and give it context with experience of others.

For computer audio your best bet is to forget about CODECS. Store your music as wav files with no compression.
Hmmm. I just had one of those Duh! moments. Thank you Joe. Of course, this makes more sense. In fact I was looking for this exact option when I purchased my Creative Zen, a few years back, only to learn that first of all it does not offer that option, and second of all Personal Audio Players and Audiophile sound quality go together pretty much like oil and water. :(

For computer based audio playback get a good (higher end) sound card and use an external DAC running off the SP/DIF interface.
Hmmm, I was planning to bypass the whole sound card business, and just go for the external USB based DAC. My previous experience with the latter tells me that they are less convenient than sound cards and don't really replace them. But with the specialized application, I may be able to utilize them for this specific task of music reproduction.
Sounds cards, have to deal with a lot of noise issues on the motherboard, and my previous ones did not do a stellar job of overcoming that problem. My next PC will most likely be a Core i7 with a 1333MHz bus speed. That's a lot of noise to overcome, not to mention CPU and Power Supply fans.

Power conditioning is almost like cables, people are divided.
Yes I was afraid of that, but I'm hoping some semblance of a civil discussion will ensue that will provide valuable info. Like one you gave.

In headphone there's only one word, Sennheiser.
Wow, there's something I didn't see coming. Do you happen to remember which Grados, or even AKGs, you auditioned?

Two recent system reviews - at stupid prices but it's important to hear this stuff at very high levels to see what is truly possible - and then work down to your budget

Shindo's crazy expensive system http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/mlroadtour1/roadtour.html

Audio Note's crazy expensive system http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/PDF_HT05_Audio_Note_engl.pdf
RGA Thanks for sharing your point of view and for the review links, although the second one does not seem to be forthcoming with the pricing, unless I missed it.

Rudy

[RGA]

Rudy

The pricing on the second one is "if you have to ask then you can't afford it." I'll give you the turntable price
The MC cartridge step up transformer that just powers the phono cartridge is $8,675.00US.
The Turntable with arm runs about $80,000 and their top cartridge (and what else would you use if you can afford $80k already) is I believe another $12k+ The turntable system alone is going to run a little more than $100,000. The top DAC is $76,000. So my bet is the system there would be running close to half a million bucks.

The scary thing is that this review kind of suggests that the TT3 is some kind of bargain compared to even more crazy expensive turntables from competitors http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/HFC10_AN.pdf

Bob Neil I have spoken to on other forums and he's a pretty passionate audiophile/reviewer turned dealer - he has the price lists for a lot of the stuff. I am just thankful they make stuff that is somewhat affordable on a teacher's salary. http://www.amherstaudio.com/

[JoeE SP9]

A FEW POINTS.
One, you dont need a soundcard with a usb dac.
Codecs are fine, especially Flac or windows lossless, if you can tell any difference you are a German shepard.
And external HD'S are one of the best inventions ever
Everything I have is on at least two drives, except the CD collection, which is on the CD collection.
One thing I don't understand, who is buying these "media servers" for hundreds, or thousands when a three hundred dollar E-MACHINE computer will do the same thing?
Or any old computer, or a home built one?
I don't like or use USB connections for music. I make my living with computers. The fact that USB connections require CPU time is a no no for me. USB was invented to make it easy for the average "dolt" to connect devices to a PC. By "dolt" I mean the consumer who won't read a manual and complains something doesn't work properly.
If you can cheaply purchase large HDD's why bother with any CODEC's at all. The less you do to any signal the better.
I build my own PC's. I've been doing so since I built a 386 based machine. The one before that was an original IBM. I still use the old IBM keyboards. They have the feel of a Selectric typewriter. I would never waste my money on a "media server" and I tell my clients both business and personal just that.

[JoeE SP9]

Rudy:
Your questions are sound, sensible and thought provoking. In my case, most of my gear is there to complement my speakers. To paraphrase what I said earlier, If it ain't large flat and dipolar I'm not interested. If you are not familiar with Magneplanars, ESL's or full range Ribbon loudspeakers it's very difficult if not impossible to describe their unique sound. However, if you like the sound of panels no box will ever satisfy you. Hearing some panels properly set up is the only way to understand this. Panel owners know this. All who have heard panels understand it although panels may not be their "Holy Grail".
Large panels just don't sound like anything else. I know that a well set up system will cause the speakers to "disappear". With most boxes you need to be in the sweet spot for this to happen. That's not so with panels. People come to my house, stand in front of my ESL's (3 feet away) while they are playing reasonably loud and ask, "Where is the sound coming from?". That just doesn't happen with any box speakers.

So, the reason I chose most of my gear is because it made my ESL's sound better. I really don't care to much about anything else. As I'm writing this I'm listening to Gota, Chillin' Children, it keeps drawing my attention.

As far as I'm concerned any speaker that is hard to use for background music because the music keeps drawing you in is for me. That's what panels in general and ESL's in particular do for me.

If you're ever in the Philadelphia area let me know. You can come over, we'll hoist a few and listen to some music.

That invite is extended to the rest of you, even Auric:prrr:.

Mile Davis, Tutu is on now. I don't want to type anymore.

[hifitommy]

spoken like a TRUE receiver owner. he doesnt know what high end sound is about.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, in my experience I have found a couple of your statements in total agreement. I have not had good success mixing tubes and solid state, pre/power. Maybe there's some that work and some claim to have the proper impedance but it just didn't sound right to me. I also subscribe to same brand systems to an extent. Maybe AN is the exception but I haven't heard any electronics manufacturer put out a decent line of speakers and that includes Krell. Krell's may not be bad at half or third the price but dollar to dollar Dyn's kill them bad. Linn could be an exception too.

Rudy the AKG's I had were only like a K-240. The Grado I heard a few pair, I can't remember what the models were but I went up to a model just under $300.00 at the time. I found the basic characteristic of the Grado the same.

[hifitommy]

YES, one of my favorite miles albums. dont get me wrong, i have the miles/gil LP set and miles/coltrane as well but TUTU is right up there. a modern classic.

if you like that, try 'siesta'. marcus again but it sounds slightly like 'sketches' in its own way.the vinyl sound is better than the cd sound.

[JoeE SP9]

I have it. Mile is represented very well in my collection (44LP's and CD's). I wrote a database to keep track of my collection. I just checked it that's why I know how many by Miles. Right now I'm listening to Birdland from Heavy Weather. LP of course

[hifitommy]

do you have 'sportin life'? methinks you'sll like it. but then yer a smartass and alredy HAVE it.

anyway, my favorite cut is 'confians' which played on the jazz station here in LA without a back-announcement for a LONG time before i found out what it was. the whole album is good but confians is special. it does NOT sound like WR at all. i like to put that cut on and play GUESS THE BAND!

[JoeE SP9]

hifitommy:
WXPN (U of PA) used to have a theme song for one of their DJ's that they never identified. It took me several years to find out it was Young Rabbits by The Jazz Crusaders. I bought Happy Again for that one tune.
I have just about all of Weather Reports recordings. I don't have Domino Theory or Live In Tokyo.

[Auricauricle]

Sorry to come in so late, Rudy, but I've been puttering and muttering about and needed to think upon a few things before I dipped the quill....

Getting back to the initial question, I would start by stating that as much as I love the equipment, the music comes first. In saying this, a "dream" system would include, first and foremost, the best and most enjoyable recordings available. It's easy to spend money on certain recordings, classical say, where the variety of recordings of the same piece is enormous. My father loves music, but I think he was more interested in the composition and not the artist when he bought his albums. Since becoming an active listener, I have developed preferences of artist, conductor, and recording company. The diligence takes more work, but pays off in dividends in the end.

A second point is spending some money on ensuring that the conditions for listening are optimal. Architects of dwellings seldom design sound rooms, and various products are available to ensure that the sound issuing from your speakers is balanced, musical and enjoyable. I understand Corning makes good room treatment materials; there are many others, but maybe someone else here can steer you in the right direction. Furthering the point along, I use an equalizer (gasp) while I listen to music. The ability to accentualte certain portions of the music and compensate for a speakers/cables or what not's short comings gives me comfort. I like to twiddle, and armed with my trust SPL meter, I reckon the sound that I listen to is somewhat respectable.

Following this up, I would pay some attention to the components that are enrolled to sample these recordings. While I don't have the experience of listening to any of the newest and best available equipment, there is no doubt that the improvements made over the years are real and significant. I recently bought a second-hand California Audio Labs Tercet Mk. III and find that player amazing. No doubt newer players are much better; but the satisfaction of listening to a musically involving player at such a reasonable price keeps me patting myself on the back.

A good LP player is almost essential in my book. Many recordings won't make it to CD or whatever comes next. Even if they do, used LP's are generally quite affordable and often increase in value. Second, LP's, IMO, are tangible and nostalgic. Like opening a good cigar or bottle of wine, the satisfaction of opening an LP sleeve is almost magical. Good players are available, and I would invest well in one that has withstood the tests of time. Dual, Linn Sondek and Sota all have very well established reputations and should last many years. Again, investing in these brands nearly assures that, should things turn bad, resale may be possible.

Your taste in music should have a bearing on the speakers you will choose. At the hazard of sounding over-grand, I would assert that no one speaker design can produce all music with equal aplomb. Certain music is simply stirring whilst played on planars, while other material is just as incredible on concentric drivers, etc. Like someone noted earlier, my musical tastes has become increasingly attuned to more intimate music, such as jazz and ensemble pieces. I still love big music, and play Pink Floyd and Beethoven when the mood comes. I have yet to find a speaker that covers all the territory, but Tannoy's higher priced prestige speakers are pretty darn good contenders. I have listened for some time to the Westminsters, Churchills, Signatures, Edinburghs and Studio Red Monitors, and can attest to their life-like and unstrained musicality.

Like speakers, the amplifiers and preamplifiers should consider the material that will be presented. Tubes are wonderful, and some argument has been made recently that they are capable of a wide range of flexibility with just about any material. Personally, I like the way they present the "intimate music" I referred to earlier. VTL makes very nice and reasonably priced amplifiers. Conrad Johnson is also a very fine manufacturer and are not over priced (yes, there are high-priced amps out there, but there are many reasonably priced ones out there, too!). Solid state wise, there are many brands available, including Accuphase and McIntosh. I listened to all of these brands, and the experience has been quite satisfactory. I'd lean toward to CJ, but I'll change my mind tomorrow....

A good tuner is also a good buy. Although radio is going to hell in a handbasket, I don't forsee its demise as iminent. As in all things, one should play into a manufacturer's strength. Magnum Dynalab seems to have the tuner down pat, I would certainly look into one of theirs.

No comment about interconnects and cables. Not my territory....

No doubt, my choices are a bit more old fashioned than some of the recommendations listed above. I have great respect for the new developments, but, sadly I have not been able to indulge myself in staying abreast of the newest and the brightest. Personally, I am becoming a bit of a nostalgic buff, in a sense. I expect shipment of a couple of older Kenwood units: a KA-6006 integrated and KT-6007 tuner in a day or two. By today's standards, they probably could be a lot better. Sansui made excellent integrateds and tuners back in the day as well, and many AU717's etc. are available in Craigslist and the like if you are interested.

Sorry to ramble on so, guys. Just thought I'd throw a chip in and see how far I could take it....

[JoeE SP9]

Well said Auric!
However, I'm puzzled. You like and own a CAL CD player, recommend a Linn or SOTA TT and still stick with vintage "mid-fi" electronics. I don't get it. Kenwood gear is OK, but you would probably get better sound with gear aimed at a higher sound quality level.
You talked about the room. It is possibly the most important component of all. I knocked down a wall, remodeled and redecorated my entire first floor for better sound. It was worth it.
You mentioned Tannoy speakers. They would sound "yummy" with some tubes. Maybe a pair of SET amps and a CJ preamp.
Not criticizing, just wondering.

[mlsstl]

JoeE SP9 wrote: "You like and own a CAL CD player, recommend a Linn or SOTA TT and still stick with vintage "mid-fi" electronics."
I think that falls in one of those "different strokes for different folks" categories. Different people listen for different things.

While it is popular among some of the cognescenti to hear "massive" differences in electronics there are a lot of people who find the differences between amps far more modest than the differences between speakers or sources. I know in my case I made my last switch from solid state amplification back to tubes based far more on a love for the general tube concept than any sonic ascendancy into heaven.

I've got no problem with a fellow who puts speakers and sources several notches above amplifiers in the selection process. Of course, that is the neat thing about this hobby. With the extraordinarily wide range of equipment available on today's market there are a lot of different ways to chase one's dream.

[Mr Peabody]

Not knowing what the Kenwood cost, it could have been too good to pass up but I agree targeting a NAD, Cambridge or Rotel may have been a better way to go. Not that they are the best but I know Auric shops on a budget and these could be gotten reasonable if keeping an eye out. Certain Kenwood tuners are hard to beat, especially for reception.

[Feanor]

Not knowing what the Kenwood cost, it could have been too good to pass up but I agree targeting a NAD, Cambridge or Rotel may have been a better way to go. Not that they are the best but I know Auric shops on a budget and these could be gotten reasonable if keeping an eye out. Certain Kenwood tuners are hard to beat, especially for reception.

In fact the '70s is considered the high point of tuners by some with many notable models from Kenwood and Sansui, and also Denon, Pioneer, and others. This was the heyday of analog tuners. The aforementioned makers competed with others in the higher end models to make ultimate "super tuners".

See a nice pic of an upper mid-range Denon TU-500 owned. Kinda sorry I sold; I owned it for about 25 years and it was in mint condition. However I wasn't listening to much radio by the time I sold and even less today, given the state of CBC Radio 2. I replaced the TU-500 with a very decent, digitally tuned Denon TU-767, paying less than a third of what I sold the former for.

But older tuners, especially those from the '80s and '90s, are a huge bargain. Tuners hold up well over the years and there is very little reason to buy an new one when there is a great selection on eBay, etc.

Check out 'Tuner Information Center' (http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/) for great info on vintage tuners.

[JoeE SP9]

Hey Guys!
I was just curious. Linn TT', CAL CD player, Tannoy speakers and a vintage Kenwood amp. I would question anyone who chose that combination. I fully understand about working with a modest budget. I have been operating under budgetary restraints for the last couple of years. A divorce settlement and a son in a private college have made things quite tight. Thankfully, September will let me see some daylight. Divorcement settlement paid and senior year for son mean, I can finally buy some of the gear I've been lusting after.

Did anyone ever notice what my tuner is?

[Mr Peabody]

Well, it depends on which Kenwood amp, they made some decent higher end stuff. What i mean by higher end is better than their mass market, it would compete today with some of the mid-fi gear. The D series I owned was very good, the Basic line was pretty good, right after the D they built separates I think "L" series that was pretty well regarded and I'm not sure if or what they did similar to this in the 70's. Kenwood was a firm believer integrated amps was the best way to go. They never went as far upstream as Marantz or Denon though.

That reminds me, i saw a Yamaha M4 on CL, the ad said it was Class A. Anyone know about this amp?

[hifitommy]

"people who find the differences between amps far more modest than the differences between speakers "

yes, and no. once you start this trek, you find speakers that elucidate the music, then you change or borrow a piece of electronics that opens up the world. i have had some pretty good electronics in years past and been blindsided by a piece new to my system.

example: i had quatre and nad preamps that sounded great and thought i was moving up the chain with the adcom gfp565 with its glowing review in stereophile. had that for years, it was good.

THEN i was in audio den in van nuys california and a guy brought in an audio research SP3A1 in to trade for another piece. i snagged it for a song, took it home and was FLOORED by the improvement in sound. i wasnt sure WHAT to expect and certainly not that.

and that was with an oscillating power supply (a defect in need of repair). it went back to minnesota and came back just fine. years later a distortion reared its ugly head in the ARC and i put back in the quatre pre. GREAT. oh, its not as good as the arc but it made me glad i didnt dump it.

dont be so quick to think that electronics are much the same, theyre NOT. the more you improve the system, the better you can hear improvements. thats why we hear wire diffs and pursue better sounding wire. and you dont need to go broke doing that either. therein lies many other adventures and stories.

[RGA]

RGA, in my experience I have found a couple of your statements in total agreement. I have not had good success mixing tubes and solid state, pre/power. Maybe there's some that work and some claim to have the proper impedance but it just didn't sound right to me. I also subscribe to same brand systems to an extent. Maybe AN is the exception but I haven't heard any electronics manufacturer put out a decent line of speakers and that includes Krell. Krell's may not be bad at half or third the price but dollar to dollar Dyn's kill them bad. Linn could be an exception too.

Rudy the AKG's I had were only like a K-240. The Grado I heard a few pair, I can't remember what the models were but I went up to a model just under $300.00 at the time. I found the basic characteristic of the Grado the same.

Turnabout is fair because in general I agree with the statement that: "A jack of all trades is the master of none" and if you have an "expert" in amplifier design does not necessarily mean he will be an expert in loudspeaker design." I have not heard the Krell speakers but I'd still like to hear an all Krell system because I want to KNOW what Krell believes is the pinnacle of music reproduction. Their speakers are expensive - this is what they claim to be the "THE" best they make or what they believe is the sound that they are striving for. I am not a Krell fan in the least bit but it may be that the speakers were to blame or a mismatch. If I can audition a whole system I might better know what they're after.

To follow up with what you say - LINN makes a complete system but generally the Sources are considerably better than their amplifiers or speakers.

I am not as knowledgeable about Shindo so can't really comment and as You know Audio Note does not have to be a master of everything because they bought out the master's of other fields. They hired Guy Adams of Voyd turntables and bought out the terrific SystemDek company. So AN really didn't have to be a jack of all trades designing and building everything from the ground up - 80-90% of the work was done and making improvements on a proven design is far less work than starting from scratch. And of course the Speakers were designed by Peter Snell - in fact those speakers put Snell Acoustics on the map - they were the only ones designed by Snell - he died and everything that followed is lesser. AN one company made up of several other companies and designers who specialized in their respective fields with one set of ears behind the company dictating what sound he is after and then goes out and buys or has designed what he is after. You want to make a filterless DAC because prototypes have sounded good but you need more expertise? What does AN do? Go out and hire the design engineer at Sonic Frontiers (already an industry leader in tube amps and DACs) to work with the guys on your team.

[RGA]

I think that falls in one of those "different strokes for different folks" categories. Different people listen for different things.

While it is popular among some of the cognescenti to hear "massive" differences in electronics there are a lot of people who find the differences between amps far more modest than the differences between speakers or sources. I know in my case I made my last switch from solid state amplification back to tubes based far more on a love for the general tube concept than any sonic ascendancy into heaven.

I've got no problem with a fellow who puts speakers and sources several notches above amplifiers in the selection process. Of course, that is the neat thing about this hobby. With the extraordinarily wide range of equipment available on today's market there are a lot of different ways to chase one's dream.

I'm going to agree mostly with SS amplifiers. I've heard a few vintage amps versus some new $2k ones and you know I would probably agree - there are some very good vintage amps and SS power just isn't very different - more power maybe and newer better parts (but costly) and in many cases if you buy used for the same money you can do a lot better than a new model. A 1990's Sugden A21a IMO is pretty tough to better when we're talking SS amplifiers (assuming you have reasonably efficient speakers). It's the only SS amp I would part with my money for. Not because it's necessarily the best (for whatever that loaded word means) but because the sound is "right" it's well built, it is dead easy to use, it has no annoying artifacts that many other SS amps possess, it has enough power to run most speakers and when you sell it you will get pretty much what you paid for it.

You get single ended topology (SET) but without the worry over flea power or tube replacement. The best SE tubes sound better but let's put things into perspective - and consider the price and not just spend for spending sake. The a21a good enough to be a take it to the grave amp by a supremely reputable company.

Tubes soundly wildly different from each other and in a tube bases system - amplifiers make a much more noticeable difference (even in those blind tests people love) tubes sound different.

Turnatables make staggering differences as you move up the line. Speakers obviously have the largest frequency response differences - I do not believe frequency response is nearly as important as some give it credit for simply because the professional reviewers often BUY out of their own money speakers that measure quite a lot worse than what are deemed better measuring speakers which directly flies in the face of frequency being the critical factor.

[Auricauricle]

I bought the two Kenwood units mentioned for $100.00. Except for a burned out power light (that was allegedly repaired by the seller for an additional $25.00) on the amp, the units are described and appear (per photos) to be in near mint condition. A few scrapes, but nothing to write home about. Mr. P is right: I shop on a budget, but I think finding diamonds in the rough like these is part of the fun.

JoeE, your question is a fair one, and I hope this is a sensible answer. Part of my rationale for buying the Kennys was based partially on sentimentality. The feel and appearance of some of the older stuff is satisfying and emotionally comforting to me. I have little doubt that performance wise they may well be overshadowed by more esteemed units made by Accuphase or other vintage units, but the price was right and I reckon the sound issuing from them will be very satisfactory. Having been on the planet for a while, I hope that some of the electronics have mellowed somewhat, and will make the listening all the more enjoyable. I'll let you know my thoughts when it's plugged in.

The questions about synergy are also well considered. For me, the source is an important issue. The CAL is a very fine, high fidelity piece. I reckon that the Kenny amp should handle it well. The resolution of the player should be fairly well discerned by the amp--with some loss of fidelity, but not enough to bother me hopefully--which may even soften things up a tinge. Again, I'll let you know.

The seventies (these were produced in '74) was a good era for SS, and manufacturers like Kenwood, Sansui and other Japanese brands produced some pretty amazing units then. The comments made Feanor regarding the tuners echoes my sentiments.

I have no illusions that the Kennys were not among the best vintage gear in the market and that there are other models that are very highly sought out, but for the price and condition, they seemed a baragin that could not be easily ignored. If they suit my tastes, they may stick around awhile; if they sound like hell, I will let them go with little more than a blink. Something tells me that they will sound very nice; their apparent quality of manufacture appears to indicate that they are robust enough to hang in for quite a few years. Who knows? Who cares? At 125 smackers, why not?

More to follow....

[Mr Peabody]

I believe a flat frequency response is what we are told we want but when it comes down to it I doubt many people really enjoy listening to a flat response. I don't have time right now to get into why I make this statement.

[Auricauricle]

I could not agree more. As a baseline, it is very useful. Whether to cut or not to cut, that is the question!

[pixelthis]

spoken like a TRUE receiver owner. he doesnt know what high end sound is about.


Spoken like a true audio snob who uses gear to justify his neurosis.
If you have a Hubble telescope or just a backyard model it doesnt really matter if the planet you're looking for doesnt exist.
Due to the law of deminishing returns there is only going to be a few percent
(if that) difference between a "receiver" and high end gear.
That extra few percent is what you're paying for.
This is typical, a webpage full of explanation of why what you are "hearing" is more between your ears than in your ears, why what you are claiming doesnt exist ,
and you shoot the messenger.
DOESNT MATTER, I know enough about the falibility of a human witness that I KNOW
that an "audiophile" talking about "air", etc IS FULL OF IT as a general rule.:1:

[Feanor]

Spoken like a true audio snob who uses gear to justify his neurosis.
If you have a Hubble telescope or just a backyard model it doesnt really matter if the planet you're looking for doesnt exist.
Due to the law of deminishing returns there is only going to be a few percent
(if that) difference between a "receiver" and high end gear.
That extra few percent is what you're paying for.
This is typical, a webpage full of explanation of why what you are "hearing" is more between your ears than in your ears, why what you are claiming doesnt exist ,
and you shoot the messenger.
DOESNT MATTER, I know enough about the falibility of a human witness that I KNOW
that an "audiophile" talking about "air", etc IS FULL OF IT as a general rule.:1:

Pix, I agree! ... well, except the part about the "air". :thumbsup:

[hifitommy]

with the backyard model, there will be planets you dont know exist, even when they are in plain sight with a better telescope. when i went from a vivitar camera to a canon sure shot (the first one and it wasnt that expensive), i couldnt believe the clarity and detail differences between the two cameras!

granted, there ARE receivers that will elucidate the differences of detail, dynamics, and imaging but they arent denons or marantz. they are rotel, and B&K. the higher end of marantz or integra may also suffice.

it has nothing to do with neurosis, just discovery. once you hear the better sound, you are anxious to move toward that. the AIR that feanor mentions is part of the improved definition of better electronics. like a better lens as in the canon/vivitar difference. the clearly defined space (and whats in those spaces) of either the camera or electronics.

and it REALLY doesnt have to be costly-the nad 3020 was a perfect example, high end for cheeeeep. better electronics have better internal components and power supplies, hence better performance heard.

if what you have is 'good enough' then stop there but dont ask everyone to agree that its as good as it gets.

[Auricauricle]

And I think that at this point, there should be a discussion on the "passion" versus "rational" oriented issues of audiophilism. I subscribe to the point of view that while there is a level of excellence to aspire to, decisions made as to equipment used ultimately strikes a visceral chord. Call it performance or sentiment, the effect is the same and that is where the apple falls, my dear Newton!

I am sure my recent additions will not deliver the same delivery of performance, spec-wise, as current gear. On the other hand, I anticipate being quite thrilled with them nevertheless.

The rest is just gravy.

[drmorgan]

And I think that at this point, there should be a discussion on the "passion" versus "rational" oriented issues of audiophilism. I subscribe to the point of view that while there is a level of excellence to aspire to, decisions made as to equipment used ultimately strikes a visceral chord. Call it performance or sentiment, the effect is the same and that is where the apple falls, my dear Newton!

I am sure my recent additions will not deliver the same delivery of performance, spec-wise, as current gear. On the other hand, I anticipate being quite thrilled with them nevertheless.

The rest is just gravy.

Yes, that's the divide. Were we to have our gear behind a black curtain I suspect we'd save a bundle on stuff we can't actually hear.

Were we to purchase only on line without placing trust in the car, loan or real estate salespersons (currently working on commission) who said yes to each of our questions and offered endless assurances before the write up.

If they avoided suggesting insuring our satisfaction by purchase of any one of a dozen little 'special' packages proclaiming perfection if you'll just open me and connect.

Alas we have many goals when we shop for gear and the makers shape the experience as much as an EQ does the sound.

So, not having that block to the gear, or isolation from the sales 'experience' we create elaborate rationalization upon rationalization why this or that device is the be all or end all in the quest, this day, week or month.

Alas the '70's to '80's were, from my experience when the best of the best had been invented and introduced. Since then it more about spin than sound reproduction. Tubes were left behind for a reason (the wear, unlike solid state).

Perfection remains to be revealed.

Close your eyes and when settings are flat. Ask yourself: is what you hear transporting you to the real event? Verify this with the wife or one of the kids. They probably can hear better anyway.

If not, is it the space or can you compensate with a tweak or two on the EQ?

Audit this on another system until you find that closed eye experience. Once this happens you stop the quest and enjoy the music.

Some variations between vocal, jazz or classical may be presented by some speakers better, but you can have three sets or a good EQ.

The rest is bliss... '

[Mr Peabody]

You know I find some of the comments here insulting. Especially the ones that incenuate that people are so inadequate that we would buy whatever some one tells us is good. That's the largest load of crap you all dish out. Either you've never heard any true high end gear or you just like talking out of your rear. I've heard a lot of high end gear I would not own, like the current high dollar Classe' or much of the current ARC. Sorry if that offends any owners but it's my taste. The sales people were not short on praise of this gear. In fact, I brought home some ARC separates to try before buying my current CJ gear. The CJ was bought with out audition with the agreement it could be returned as no one in my area sells it. The ARC did not impress me, the CJ was like, just what the doc ordered. So don't go saying we will buy based on whatever sales people feed us.

Manufacturers abandoned tubes because they smelled money, just like when the IC was introduced. i don't think any one with audio knowledge would praise the sound quality attributes of IC's. I do have to hand it to ARC for keeping the tube technology going. Tube gear vary in sound and performance the same way solid state does.

[JoeE SP9]

And I think that at this point, there should be a discussion on the "passion" versus "rational" oriented issues of audiophilism. I subscribe to the point of view that while there is a level of excellence to aspire to, decisions made as to equipment used ultimately strikes a visceral chord. Call it performance or sentiment, the effect is the same and that is where the apple falls, my dear Newton!

I am sure my recent additions will not deliver the same delivery of performance, spec-wise, as current gear. On the other hand, I anticipate being quite thrilled with them nevertheless.

The rest is just gravy.
Auric;
The T-101 was bought in 1982 for $200. It's definitely vintage. I was just trying to say that I don't look down on vintage gear.

That said:
You won't hear me saying that the pinnacle of audio design was the 60's, 70's, or 80's. To suggest that the design and manufacture of audio equipment has not improved since then is like saying that designers and engineers such as Nelson Pass, Jim Bongiorno, Dan D'Agostino and Bob Carver are deceiving the buyer. That's a flat out insult to them and anyone who purchases and uses any of their products.

[E-Stat]

Alas the '70's to '80's were, from my experience when the best of the best had been invented and introduced. Since then it more about spin than sound reproduction. Tubes were left behind for a reason (the wear, unlike solid state).
Interesting. Even the folks at McIntosh admit their product from that era was lacking. Stuff like the C28/2105 was pretty insipid. The C2300 and MC2301 are far better.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to mention one other thing in case I gave the wrong impression on ARC. Years back an ARC system driving Martin Logan speakers was one of the best auditions I've ever heard, not the, best, but one of those I'll never forget. It's that audition that eventually led me to tubes. It wasn't the accuracy of the system, that's what I thought I wanted at the time, but it was the most hauntingly real presentation I've ever heard. A friend of mine said it best when he described it as "putting the flesh on the bone". Parts of the presentation you knew weren't that accurate but I felt the singer was right there, I could reach out and touch them. So although I found the units I auditioned not to my liking I know some components by ARC are very good.

To me solid state and tubes can both be very accurate but each in a different dimension or aspect of a performance. Face it, no matter how much of a tube fan you are they just aren't going to deliver the transient response and control of drums and other instruments like a Krell, Levinson or Pass, amps of that nature. However, these amps to my experience cannot deliver the organic aspect of the same instruments. It's like SS gets the shape edges and definition while tubes gives more of the body or resonance of the instrument. Vocals may be a better example, SS may have the performance accurate but it doesn't allow the image to come off the paper so to speak, tubes gives more life into the performer, easier to close your eyes and feel that performer in the room. There are trade offs of each and a person has to decide which is important to them. Can any one who has experienced both SS and tube high end systems relate, or agree/disagree?

I also think what keeps some audiophiles on a continual search or the "upgrade merry-go-round" we aren't sure what we want or looking for until we hear it. It was like that for me. I thought i wanted accuracy and kept upgrading, switching etc. Then I began to switch in some tube gear and liked where it was going. When I hooked up my current Conrad Johnson I knew I had found what I was looking for. I think the urge to experiment or hear other products will always be there to some extent but for now the CJ has me content.

[Auricauricle]

I would like to think that most of the "regulars" here are canny enough not to be swayed by sales gimmicks and other ploys to make decisions as to their preferences and purchases (per post 80). Such comments are either made in jest or to address that population of consumers (not audiophiles) who don't spend much time in rationally and logically oriented forums like this one.

At the same time, if I ever insinuated that an era represented the pinnacle of achievement for certain equipment, such an announcement was based on sentiment, not as a statement as fact. I do acknowledge and am cognizant to know that advances in high-fidelity are continuous. I also maintain the seemingly contradictory point of view, which avers that sometimes this progression proceeds in fits and starts, making progress linear, but not perfectly so.

The argument that the "upgrade merry-go-round" is based on the lack of awareness of what one is looking for is an interesting one. On the surface, this may be true: the music listening experience does have an intangible quality, and the essence of that quality is as elusive as quicksilver. At the same time, there is a "knowing" that is deeper, and strikes us at our core of cores. Fortunately, with experience and having discussions like this one with people who share our perplexity, the search can bear fruit. Whether it is found in tubes, SS, CJ or SACD or whatever, the fruit is real, and it is so sweet is it not?

[Mr Peabody]

Not knowing what we want is not a slam, it's more we can't know what everything sounds like, we are limited by what's distributed in our area, the internet has helped with that, budget constraints and other factors. We find something we think we like but the satisfaction dissipates so we want to try something else. So we are on a search, journey. Of course, I guess all of this stems on what motivates one to pursue or even purchase an audio system. If it's just a person who buys for prestige or just because they think they should have one, none of this would apply.

[Auricauricle]

And it was not perceived as a slam. It hearkens to that intangible thing that makes the quest worthy, eh?

Of course, after awhile, the madness must desist.

Yeah....Right!

[JoeE SP9]

Auric, you are not the one who thinks 70's and 80's gear is the pinnacle of audio design. That said, I must admit there is some pretty good vintage stuff out there. It's just that the highest of the "Fi" is higher than it was in the 70's or 80's and there is no question about that.

[drmorgan]

Auric, you are not the one who thinks 70's and 80's gear is the pinnacle of audio design. That said, I must admit there is some pretty good vintage stuff out there. It's just that the highest of the "Fi" is higher than it was in the 70's or 80's and there is no question about that.

I have been auditing new and improved fairly regularly and drove 80 miles to hear speakers that I'd not found as good as a long time back. Klipsch's LaScallas driven by high end McIntosh stuff. The other system in the family room were Bozak B310’s that had been acquired on Craigs list, but driven by new design McIntosh stuff.

The Klipsch's were everything I'd expect from a great speaker and more. The CD was awesome and brought back memories from long ago when we'd heard the artist in a jazz club in NYC. That kind of thing remains in you mind. The Bozaks were not doing it with the same CD on a slightly older player. I suggested he change to the old 300 per channel amps just put in the garage. Got a call Monday stating that the Bozaks (built in 1960 something and biamp'd at some point) are as good or better than his Klipsch's. Those amps are the old designs like the Dead still have (I’ve visited and seen them locally, but hooked up to JBL’s also old designs).

I think one reason that people have to do all sorts of protection with AC and speaker cable has to do with the designs today being about low costs and light weights to save shipping and manufacturing costs. In addition these new units seem to be rather similar inside as if someone is licensing from a source and they turn them out in China and assemble here in different names.

Looking back to Klipsch's site I see they're still building the high end as they did and others are as well. Thus the technology for speakers remains pretty much the same. I looked a Genesis in Seattle a while back and they're building like the good stuff in late ‘69s and early '70s from what I can see. The new stuff is pricey. Seems to make it they had to do an end around (analog to digital, to analog and the result is vulnerable to noise the dog hears and we have to protect it from as it comes back in as distortion or such.

The only reason I have stuck with the antiques has been the ability to reproduce being there. In the seventies a host of outfits came along with supposed new ideas and you wont find them now. The stuff died they were acquired and if the name lives it is held along with ten others in a holding company (thinking of Harmon for example and earlier, Superscope) ... I think these new and improved methods won't stand up as long as the monsters of old.

Technically they deliver, but they also deliver for the add on and after market repair folks. How is that helpful? A personal factor is they don’t seem to take me to the venue as the old stuff can given quality speakers.

These articles touch on the methods and the results:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-truth-about-digital-class-d-amplifiers
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/clone-amplifiers
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/class-d-digital-amplifier

[pixelthis]

ALL I am saying is that if you spend all of your treasure and effort chasing
Unicorns instead of Deer your family is going to starve.
Money you waste on cables that are spec'ed to clean room standards,
"power cords" with more copper than Arizona, etc, could be better spent on
the quality gear you espouse.
My receiver is mid to higher end BTW, and drives my old speakers quite well.
And while I am moving towards a huge investment this year, they are few and far between,
I need to save my cash for retirement, so I can get the Alpo instead of the stuff
walmart sells from the rendering plant.
So I am not inclined to waste money chasing rainbows that, having some electronics education, I know doesnt exist.
I would rather spend my money on amps, prepros, etc, instead of the cables made out of fairy dust.
ESPECIALLY POWER CABLES!!!
You can argue at least that impedance and resistance can cause some slight effect in
audio cables, but power cables are a total crock.
A total crock squared:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, we all know what an asset your electronics training has been. Keep up the good work.

[CanMex]

Welcome to the forum Rudy!

I think by now you have read enough to either enlighten or confuse both your mind and senses and come to realize that your question leads to a plethora of answers and advice. What would really be of help is to better understand a few things if you have the time to answer a few simple questions:

1) General music selection?
2) Can you describe in your own words the type of sound you are looking for? (I realize this is subjective but try to use your best terminology)
3) Budget? This will help a lot in making some suggestion.
4) Size and type of room?
5) "Wife" factor? Decor, size, volume of sound...I think you get the picture!
6) Complicity? I prefer the simple approach but many are looking to fill a room with components.
7) Source preference? Vinyl? CD? etc
8) How will you be listening to the system?

If you can take the time to answer these questions as best you can I will be happy to make some recomendations based on my past and current experiences as I have been obsessed with this for the past 24 years and have run the gambit of manufacturers.

[E-Stat]

Looking back to Klipsch's site I see they're still building the high end as they did and others are as well. Thus the technology for speakers remains pretty much the same.
Their technology remains the same.


I think these new and improved methods won't stand up as long as the monsters of old.
A new guard of literally dozens of speaker companies have been around for decades that have established higher levels of resolution and performance. Perhaps your memory is jaded as to the limitations of the Concert Grands. Seen the review and measurements in Stereophile? As the review indicates, they have their strong points, but are severely outclassed by current speakers. There's no top octave. Have you ever heard of companies like Magnepan, Nola, Wilson, Avant Garde, Quad, Sound Lab, Revel, Avalon, VMPS, Martin-Logan, etc., etc.? Which ribbon or electrostatic speakers have you heard?


These articles touch on the methods and the results:
I agree regarding switching amps - which have been around since the 70s. I suspect you are not aware of companies like Pass Labs whose designer has been crafting leading edge amplifiers for over thirty years. Most of his designs are Class A.

rw

[E-Stat]

ESPECIALLY POWER CABLES!!!
You can argue at least that impedance and resistance can cause some slight effect in
audio cables, but power cables are a total crock.
In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

http://publicintellectual.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/ostrich.jpg

There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this (http://www.russandrews.com/downloads/cabletestpremres.pdf).

rw

[Rudy Gireyev]

Welcome to the forum Rudy!
Ola CanMex. :) Sorry couldn't resist. :) Thank you, I truly feel like I've been welcomed to the forum with all the responses in this thread.

I think by now you have read enough to either enlighten or confuse both your mind and senses and come to realize that your question leads to a plethora of answers and advice.
So far nothing confusing has come up, to me personally. In this particular thread some folks seem to have caught on to what I'm after and others, well, not so much. Most likely I've not phrased myself in a way that is clear enough for everyone to perceive as to what I'm after. Less likely, although somewhat possible is that my previous posts have not been read, or not read fully. No matter. I'll try again, see below.
In this thread all the discussions have been beneficial, and even the "cables" discussion started out really well, however, half way through it, lost the informative aspects and had simply turned into an arm wrestling match. Seeing how folks on both sides are intelligent and adult, I'm hoping someone will realize that by not replying to that particular "thread" within a "thread" the sleeping dogs will be allowed to fall back asleep. :wink5: :confused: :thumbsup:

What would really be of help is to better understand a few things if you have the time to answer a few simple questions:

1) General music selection?
2) Can you describe in your own words the type of sound you are looking for? (I realize this is subjective but try to use your best terminology)
3) Budget? This will help a lot in making some suggestion.
4) Size and type of room?
5) "Wife" factor? Decor, size, volume of sound...I think you get the picture!
6) Complicity? I prefer the simple approach but many are looking to fill a room with components.
7) Source preference? Vinyl? CD? etc
8) How will you be listening to the system?

If you can take the time to answer these questions as best you can I will be happy to make some recomendations based on my past and current experiences as I have been obsessed with this for the past 24 years and have run the gambit of manufacturers.
I can most certainly answer all of the questions you have posed above, however, seeing those questions leads me to believe that we are not in synch as far as what I am after with this thread. This is not really another one of those "Put my system together for me" threads, or even "Help me put together my system". In fact if you look at the very title of this thread it says "...... Put together your audiophile system". Notice I've stressed the word your system as opposed to mine.
What I'm looking for from this thread is to benefit from other peoples experience of auditioning audiophile gear over the years. Of course, the only way other peoples experience (i.e. opinion/review) of audiophile gear is going to be useful to me is if I know:
1. What their musical tastes are like.
2. What are their tendencies/prejudices
3. Of the gear they tested what won and what lost and why.

Now I realize that I'm asking for a lot, and I totally understand why some of the regulars have chosen not to post. As I can literally see a post taking a few days to put together, not necessarily due to its length, but rather due to its depth and openness.
In asking for this I feel I can benefit much more than simply seeing a list of recommended components, having no background and framework to see where they come from, and where they fit.
Your 24 years sound quite "delicious" to me and I'm quite looking forward to your post, and anyone else's that has not posted yet.

Lastly, lest I forget, :) Auric thanks for your post above.

Rudy

[Feanor]

In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

http://publicintellectual.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/ostrich.jpg

There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this (http://www.russandrews.com/downloads/cabletestpremres.pdf).

rw

E-Stat, please don't misconstrue that I am one who believes that cable differences can't exist. But since you ask why people do this, I will tell that it is because they hold the basic skeptics' position that:

The burden of proof lies with those who believe what has not demostrated with verifiable evidence or testable theory, and
Anecdotes and subjective impressions are, ipso facto, not verifibable evidence.And maybe you aren't right in supposing that these people have no personal experience. Rather perhaps they are as good as their principles and just don't "trusted their own ears". Personally I have often stated that I though I heard a small difference but that I couldn't be certain.

[E-Stat]

Rather perhaps they are as good as their principles and just not "trusted their own ears". Personally I have often stated that I though I heard a small difference but that I couldn't be certain.
To each his own. I am innately skeptical as well. Between magic dots, rocks, telephone teleportation devices, etc. there's a bunch of well creative products out there. Hopefully, those who form strong opinions, however, will have those based that upon multiple instances of exposure. Or view empirical data like my attachment. I first heard Kimber Palladians over at JWCs a number of years ago. Power cord make an audible difference? What? He later lent me his set to hear in my system for a week. It was only after that experience that I found the value in them. Not all are created equally and the results are highly system dependent depending upon a number of factors.

rw

[CanMex]

Rudy,

I am out of time today bit will do my best to post my reply tomorrow..as you said it will not be easy but will try to make it as simple and to the point as possible.

Saludos

[JoeE SP9]

drmorgan:
If you believe what the people at audioholics believe about cables amps and gear in general well, that's your choice. I'm not all that surprised you consider them the fount of knowledge. You have preconceived ideas and their writings fit with your beliefs.
There's no point trying to discuss anything with someone who thinks the art and science of audio has not advanced in the last 20 years. I certainly hope that as I get older my mind will not close itself to new or alternative ideas.
Did you bother to clip a scope probe to the DC supply rails of an amp and turn the AC on and off? The scope traces would be very illuminating. Since you obviously haven't we'll just agree to disagree about AC noise among other things.
As long as you're happy with your system that's all that really matters. Please don't suggest that your "Luddite" attitude is in any way congruent with mainstream thought. My audio buddies, both ex-wives, lots of posters here and many others believe in and hear differences in wires, cables and even amplifiers. But then, we also believe that time did not stop in the 80's.
You can continue to believe your "vintage" Bozak's and equally vintage "Mac" gear is as good as today's current state of the art gear. The sad truth is you're wrong about speakers, electronics and wires/cables. No amount of referring to audioholics will
change that.
Most of us who hear differences in wires didn't want to and didn't believe in it. Only when hearing it for ourselves did we believe. You can continue to live in the past. It is your choice. The rest of us will step lightly into the future. Along the way we will steadily improve our systems. Your system which is the "ultimate expression" of audio will stay the same. After all, nothing better has been made since the 80's.

[hifitommy]

i do, although i havent explored power cabling yet as most of my equipment has captive cords.

i guess that when i go upscale frome where iam now, i will borrow some and if i hear the diffs like i do in interconnests and speaker wire, i will invest frugally. that is-used or CHEEEEP.

it amuses me when people denigrate us for our choices when they dont even have equipment that can elucidate the diffs between CD players (something that a friend waved at me until i proved him wrong). he had the equipment but had made up his mind and then POOOF, he had to get a separate d/a with tubes.

point and laugh if you will at us but it is you that is missing out like that bird ralph displayed.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for that link E-stat. That's the first thing I've seen in print to support our position. Then again, it's not that hard just to try for one's self.

DrMorgan's views remind me of another older gent who was here for awhile. Some one help me out here, what was his name? DM seems to take things in stride though where this other guy got every one on his case but he was totally in the past about everything from cars to watches to clothes to actors and people.

[pixelthis]

In the spirit of your many pictorial commentaries, here's my contribution illustrating your attitude:

http://publicintellectual.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/ostrich.jpg

There was a case in the UK when a "customer" complained to their advertising bureau about claims made for some power cables.

1. ... because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little effect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

2. ... because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little effect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

3. ...because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little effect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment. "

I confess that I don't understand the attitude of those who base their strong convictions entirely on speculation. Experience-free. The case was closed when those "beliefs" were proven incorrect. Read this (http://www.russandrews.com/downloads/cabletestpremres.pdf).

rw


And I guess that the judge who ruled was an expert in electroniucs.
Any power cable is going to have adequate "sheilding", and keeping out RF isnt
"improving" the sound, just doing its job.
Not to mention that the old RF Bugaboo is a "haint" designed to scare the ignorant.
ESPECIALLY WITH TODAYS DIGITAL CIRCUITS, which don't let anything
past that doesnt belong.
As for your picture its very cute, I prefer this one for those who choose to waste their money on fairy tales.:1:

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=Mr Peabody]Pix, we all know what an asset your electronics training has been. Keep up the good work.

THANKS:1:

[Auricauricle]

Hmph! I just post here.....

[02audionoob]

I just post here, too.

[Auricauricle]

Lift up yer mugs, Lads! To the scallawags!

[E-Stat]

ESPECIALLY WITH TODAYS DIGITAL CIRCUITS, which don't let anything past that doesnt belong.
Actually, you have that bass ackwards. It is digital switching supplies in particular that spew garbage back into the AC. Class D switching amps are among the worst offenders!

rw

[E-Stat]

Thanks for that link E-stat. That's the first thing I've seen in print to support our position.
You're welcome but many folks find non-experiential speculation more compelling. :)


DrMorgan's views remind me of another older gent ...
I, too was thinking that Melvin had returned! I just have to smile anytime I hear someone say their own system is as good as the very best (given they come at a Ferrari Enzo pricetag). I would certainly never say that! Obviously, he has never heard HP's review system. Obviously, he has never heard Ray Kimber's incredible multi-channel system. And so on and so on. What is sad is that someone actually believes that to be true with such a low reference point. Far, far better exists.

rw

[hifitommy]

but i have heard the channel islands d200s driving a pair of $70k von schweickert speakers to a satisfying level of excellence. for $2300 i was damd impressed with them through the VSs.

i DO plan to go to the spectron factory here in LALA land to hear what john ulrich, the inventor of class d amplification has accomplished.

howbout you ralph? have you heard either the CIAs or the spectron?

[RGA]

I am not sure why so many make assumptions (I did to) about a lot of things regarding cables power conditioners etc. The theory holds that power conditioners are useless and I was a huge skeptic of them as well. I have tried a few they did nothing so I was on the Power conditioners/cords are a fraud.

I auditioned a pricey power cord with Marantz receivers and with the conditioner the noise floor audibly dropped significantly. WITHOUT music playing - this is just the noise from the wall - there is no test required to hear HISS and then having the HISS disappear. If anyone doesn't think that has an impact on the music is plain ignorant.

That said the Bryston I auditioned ALREADY had no audible noise - and the power conditioner did nothing for that amplifier - music on or off.

So I just figured that well the Bryston is an expensive pro amp and they are probably using higher quality shielding - the half the price receiver is packing in lots of components and wiring and probably using cheap parts.

But I got a review system from Grant Fidelity and they shipped their power conditioners and cords (not expensive by the way - certainly not relative to most out there). It did not do too much to improve my Audio Note OTO - I felt it improved the OTO but I doubt I'd pass any sort of blind test on the matter. That said the combination greatly improved my Cambridge Audio CD 6. And again - WITHOUT music playing it lowered the noise floor - you hear a hiss without - and with it it is gone. With music playing the treble hash disappeared and it was quite an enlightening experience to hear my cd player - one that I have owned for 10 years improve significantly with just the addition of some power cords and a conditioner.

Having said that I also own a highly raved about Tara Labs Prizm interconnect that to be honest sounds no better than the cheap ass wire that came with the CD6. I've also used a Belkin and Monster power conditioner and neither did anything.

And here's the point. You can take a blind test and it is very possible the new expensive unit will sound no better than the cheap stuff. We can't assume everything will be an improvement because it costs more or looks better. But it is a great disservice to have a couple of tests and then assume that in every circumstance every power conditioner (including all the ones that were never tested) won't work.

I am not confident that even the Power conditioner I used will absolutely work in everyone else's home - your power may be better than that which is coming to my home. Your specific CD player may be a lot better at blocking out crap than my CD 6. Ditto for amps. And the GF may just do what it is supposed to do while others are a sham.

Being skeptical should not be a crime - if people want to rely on DBT's and not their own experience it's up to them. But at the same time most every regular on any forum has been presented with and read the arguments for blind tests - if we choose to ignore them because we see numerous overriding problems with the science then stop beating the dead horse.

[drmorgan]

Thanks to all that have replied so far, and that are going to reply. :)

02audionoob Thanks for the impartial suggestions. If I may I have some follow up questions regarding your choices.
1. What made you select these components over others that you have auditioned?
2. Why did you select these particular speakers? Were they the best just before the point of diminishing returns began to be crossed, or was there another reason? Were they good with any amp or this particular amp? What are their characteristics warm, natural, bassy .... etc?
3. What are the characteristics of the amp warm, natural, bassy .... etc? What made it stand out when compared to other amps you auditioned?
4. Any other insight you may be willing to offer.

Doc Sage - I heartily agree with every word of your posting. In the many days I've spent reading and researching, this message has come through quite clear. I also appreciate you adding it here as you never know the background of another person. Rest assured I plan on auditioning extensively before plunking down that kind of cash. ;) :) However, in the audio world there are two almost distinct variables of a piece of equipment that have to be taken into account. First one is how it sounds on its own and second how it pairs up with some other specific piece of equipment. A perfect example would be one set of speakers sounding spectacular with one amp and downright awful with another. Now auditioning may reveal to me the first variable, that is how a certain piece of equipment sounds compared to another in that particular store on that particular day. However, to find that perfect synergy between two components (or more) requires outside help. There's just too many iterations here. This is what brought me to post on this board and to phrase my questions the way I did. And the more questions are answered the more helpful the advice will be.

O'Shag Howdy to a fellow Angelino. Actually the two things you are asking for were left out of my original post on purpose. ;) :) In your post in this thread, as well as another thread you've indicated that one need not spend ridiculous (not an actual quote) amounts of money to get an audiophile system. However, you never identified what that system would contain. This thread is your opportunity to do so. :) Ideally if you could follow my original post as close as possible when defining the system that would help me the most. However, I'll appreciate whatever you have to offer.
Lastly, I might as well put the musical style horse to rest. I don't have a musical style that I listen to. I will listen to anything that I like, from just about anywhere in the world. There's really only two kinds of music for me. Music I understand, and music I don't understand.

Mr. P Huge thanks for the extensive background with your selections. I remember reading about your gym system. Although something that "single purposed" would not work for me, the discussion around it provided a valuable background. I also liked the way you defined a "Starter Audiophile" system and "Standard Audiophile" system. :) I understand your question about my budget, however, I did not give it on purpose. The system you are putting together is _your_ system, and the budget is _your_ budget. The guiding budget factor is "reasonable" which for every person is different. No matter. This is what _you_ find reasonable and most importantly why. The context to me is as important if not more as the actual list of components that you guys provide.
I naturally have some follow up questions. :)
1. By transient response of the Krells, you mean they are neutral/natural in sound? Neither warm, nor overly aggressive on the highs?
2. Are there other Dynaudio lines you thought highly of, besides the ones you have? What was it about them that made them your favorite? Do they have some specific characteristics?
3. Same for Martin Logans.
4. On the cables front, do these manufacturers only make one line of specific cable or are there multiple? If there are multiple can you identify the model names/numbers for the ones you meant in the post.

drmorgan Thanks for your reply and the speaker suggestion. Agree with everything you said 100%. And while I'm looking for even more info (see my original post or my replies above) I appreciate this as well.

Rudy

I'll post a revsion or extension shortly. Meetings....

[pixelthis]

Actually, you have that bass ackwards. It is digital switching supplies in particular that spew garbage back into the AC. Class D switching amps are among the worst offenders!

rw

Not even talking about that.
I am talking about D/A converters, in a lot of modern equipment even analog goes through
a D/A before it gets to the amps.
Rendering your "power" cord totally irrelevant.:1:

[E-Stat]

Not even talking about that.
I am talking about D/A converters, in a lot of modern equipment even analog goes through
a D/A before it gets to the amps.
Rendering your "power" cord totally irrelevant.:1:
I see. Call me crazy, but I use power amplifiers downstream of the DAC to drive my speakers. The cords are on this last stage. If, on the other hand, you drive your speakers with the 2 volt line output without an amplifier, then you have a good point.

rw

[E-Stat]

but i have heard the channel islands d200s driving a pair of $70k von schweickert speakers to a satisfying level of excellence. for $2300 i was damd impressed with them through the VSs.
Sorry, I haven't heard either models you mentioned. I am troubled by the "fuzz" virtually all switching amps demonstrate on their square wave output. The 200 + kHz carrier signal must be completely filtered from the output. While Ulrich has advanced his concept since the first Infinity switching amp from the 70s, they are still flawed.

rw

[drmorgan]

Hey Rudy and all,

The quest probably never ends as sometimes you think after hearing another system …maybe??. but American’s are highly trained consumers. See this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html?em
so get a second and third opinion or review the gear next to what you have.

I have to inject some historical info about Concert Grands (in answer to a couple of posts). Yes, early units were often said to have inadequate high ends. What some may not have known is they were built for one type of amp design as of date made. When the tube units became SS, they were upgraded for those and when the fidelity of the music improved with recording methods, they were altered. I knew of nine different form factor CG’s before the takeover and three revisions of the bi amp device. Early issue had high end tweaking built in. If registered you’d get notified of available changes and many changes could be made at your dealer, by you or sent in for minor costs. The Bozak and dealer supported upgrade process died when Bozak were acquired. BTW some computer firms offered the same upgrade paths. Apple made this possible till they went Intel. They are doing similar with the i-Phone as they call the shots, so these business models are with us today and that should be one of the criteria to use so you are not forced to live with less because the technology advances over the years.

It was the same with all Bozaks speaker systems. Like us, he was not satisfied unless he kept pace with REAL improvements. He gave his customers systems that could match the electronics and recording methods into the future. He’d sell just the enclosure and a few drivers so you could build it as you got larger rooms. What else you or that reviewer may have missed was a mis match of those grands with the amp he was using. Many outfits care after the check clears, and good dealers do too. Obtain references and referrals from fellow addicts.

Upgrade paths should be available from your dealer and the maker. I was able to obtain it and it saved a lot of money. It builds brand loyalty and gets an honest dealer great referrals.
But the #1 issue will be your listening experience. It must evoke the same feeling about the music that mirrors an actual event.

A further criterion is the gear may be built up as the size of the room grows. If you have enough $ you can overdo on the Amp and that’s a reason to be very careful about which line you pick as mix and match does not work so well. Once you hear ‘as if’ at the place where recorded then your auditions of other systems become entertaining, unless a time comes when it seems better and then you make serious comparisons or maybe even track down cable leaks (I’ll post about a real power quality experience soon).

You want a good E.Q. This toy helps to make up for the recorded or media quality issues. Eventually our hearing declines (quick when those cable noises infiltrate), again the EQ can enhance the range you’re losing.

I continue to think that a test record approach at dealers (a CD test disk is available too) along with a favorite LP that is known intimately helps dull the new gear smell or what they spray in the air.

II think you should select an amp with double the power your speakers need* (unstressed amplifiers may last indefinitely from my experience), and a room with the space for the speakers picked.

If you don’t use some of the new stuff for a year it may decay. Try to power up your unused gear every six months. When you do provide enough power and space you discover if your speakers and amplifier deliver the depth with a lack of electronic artifacts.

In my case the first space was not ideal for those 28 drivers at 16X30’ with 11’ ceiling. SWMBO had heavy fabric furniture, two levels of drapes and 30oz. wool carpet with 3/4” jute fiber padding under.

SWMBO barely allowed those giants in the room and never dogs. When I tried to get some sound into the room the advertised 300w Crown Amp clipped! I called Bozak and Rudy wrote and said to get the Mc 2300 he’d tested. The next home was much better with 26’X28’ and 22’ high. Wood walls and a lava rock fireplace with glass wall each side. That’s when I got a second 2300 and Rudy said his third bi amp and updated tweeters were available from my dealer for me. I did not install them right away as we still loved the results and were continuing to audit other systems and the kids were getting theirs. The second 2300 powered other systems. The kids have not bought 100% the same stuff, but no one yet needs special cable. Reel to reel and cassette went away to be replaced. A new preamp and a bit later another preamp and a new tuner. We’d move the old gear onto a different speaker system till it was passed off. Nice thing about spending for quality is you can keep or give it away knowing no land fill issues.

Sadly the final Mc gear from the new owners was not as good in the Amplifier end. I stopped looking at Mc stuff when I learned the power-guard was more self-protection than the advertised speaker protection. The unit never delivered rated power (50/50) and that PG section sent up smoke signals one day (naturally after the warranty) and became silent. Funny that the little internal amp in the C34V would power the same 25-watt rated speakers at twice the volume we ever got from the 502.

In 1986 the real room became the place for those 14 drivers a side and we invested in the 10ga. runs with Monster cable of that time. This space at 55’ X 30’ X 26’ with lots of glass and soft and hardwoods finally revealed the potential in the speakers. We had overdone the purchase of the grands because we already had the 302’s and Bards for other spaces.

Due to experience side by side on those grands with many of the highly advertised brands of same watts and distortion specs have proven a lot like auto horsepower claims (it’s what’s at the driving wheels and the ability to retain traction that means something).

Most speaker makers have both the means and the interest to build for accurate reproduction. Most listening rooms at dealerships are too small and low to reveal enough and why many large systems don’t reveal well in them. Still the test record and CD can at least prove if…??

True, I stopped bringing speakers home a decade ago, but I have not stopped auditing other systems and would switch if… Thankfully that’s only happened with CD players (4 so far of which only one died), and adding blue ray to the system has validated that new technology.

I think that looking under the cover and looking at what’s on the dealer’s shelf waiting for repair is helpful. Google for reports of glitches or complaints. Check the manufacture out as to financial viability and who owns them. Prices are extremely high these days and I can’t comprehend as electronics should have been falling similar to computers, CD’ players, LCD’s and the like. That’s fishy given they’re using PC boards and relatively cheap power supplies (irrespective of the names they call them .. look at the country of origin and weigh the unit).

Everything inside should have gold brands and quality ratings of the highest possible as they can add much to initial cost.

Look for excellent natural convection with augmented cooling as heat degrades electronics faster than decades will. Thick circuit boards, solid solder and don’t be too concerned if gold and silver coatings are lacking. Good conductive materials for this type gear does not need plating. I’d expect at least a three-year no cost warranty from a brand not on thin ice and drop off at the dealer. If you don’t like to read the financials, have a banker do it.

If it stinks when you fire it up they probably don’t have a quality assurance tests and that’s a reason to stop right there.

Lastly: I’ve not found reviews too helpful other than for music releases (RS seems spot on). I make products and magazines are want to write glowing stuff when we buy a space even if the PR outfit does not ask them. Buy a page and they manage to send a photographer and writer! Lots of lay-offs from the papers I gather.

Forums that have a thread for quality, or ‘not as advertised’ should be noted. No good sound system should be sent for service after the break in given good ventilation, not over loaded, left under water or plugged with dust or hit by lightening (I’ll post a power quality note tomorrow if I’ve time, Friday latest).

Lastly, at some point your hearing will decline. It’s just like taxes … nothing to do but accept the fact and stop accepting distortion as some new and improved experience. When this begins ask the grandkids what sounds best when they’re not reprogramming your latest remote or see where the dog rests…..

[Feanor]

Hey Rudy and all,

The quest probably never ends as sometimes you think after hearing another system …maybe??. but American’s are highly trained consumers. See this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html?em
so get a second and third opinion or review the gear next to what you have.

I have to inject some historical info about Concert Grands (in answer to a couple of posts)...
...

That was a fascinating account of some Bozak history. Bozaks were around when I became interested in hifi, circa 1970. I could not possibly haved afforded them then (or now), nor did I have a large room suitable for their use. Consequently I gave them no real consideration.

My first speakers where Dynaco A-25, and other than them I was interested in mostly AR speakers other accoustic suspension speakers. I had a very brief infatuation with JBL, but soon realized that the likes of AR where more neutral, detailed, and airy.

[drmorgan]

That was a fascinating account of some Bozak history. Bozaks were around when I became interested in hifi, circa 1970. I could not possibly haved afforded them then (or now), nor did I have a large room suitable for their use. Consequently I gave them no real consideration.

My first speakers where Dynaco A-25, and other than them I was interested in mostly AR speakers other accoustic suspension speakers. I had a very brief infatuation with JBL, but soon realized that the likes of AR where more neutral, detailed, and airy.

Seems that they were better than Heath Kits. Must have been dozens of makers back then. In my day you could go to the corner and have your tubes tested free... and several local shops carried resistors, caps, rectifiers and some products were designed so well they would have reduncancy built in with circuits that would let you carry on till you could get new tubes (Dumont), for them.

But I do not have a favorite that exists now. McIntosh changed and in my opion and experience not for the better. Harmon Kardon changed too and now are about a dozen firms in many price segments. Becker Audio was the first thing I have taken out of vehicles that come with it. Now it is Bose. What' under the covers seemed strangely alike to me even if differently priced tends to get my dander up. I found this to be surprisingly common.

I've not been able to hear beyond 16kcps for a long time, but not many of us can. If a pet who has that high hearing does not leave when the gear is playing I have assurance the stuff works.

The progression of CD and DVD gear proves that innovation continues.

But as for ads and claims.. I'll remain a devoted, vocal cynic till the cows come home. I'll also expect to see price reduction if vendors use common imported components and sub assemblies. I'll speculate snidely that the gold plating we see costs less than the original conductive materials they replaced.

Cheers

[pixelthis]

I see. Call me crazy, but I use power amplifiers downstream of the DAC to drive my speakers. The cords are on this last stage. If, on the other hand, you drive your speakers with the 2 volt line output without an amplifier, then you have a good point.

rw

If you have such serious line interferrence that its audible under any condition
you haave more problems than a "power cord" will cure is my point.
And as more and more amps go digital themselves your cord will be more and more irrelavant.:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Wrong again, Pix. I upgraded the power cord on my Linn amp and it made a very nice improvement. The highs were smoother and the thing that is consistent with power cord replacement is the noise floor dropped or same thing said a different way the background was quieter, darker. You all want to minse words, night/day or significant, but the improvement the power cord made was significant to me because it was easily heard and much appreciated. I would not say "night & day" but it was close to maybe a step up in model performance. In fact, my CD player was also one of the largest beneficiaries of the power cord upgrade. The only unit that had a larger improvement was my phono stage.

[E-Stat]

If you have such serious line interferrence that its audible under any condition...
The difference lies in what you consider audible as opposed to what I consider audible.

rw

[Auricauricle]

What is a "udible" anyway...?

[hifitommy]

i feel the need to add to my previous mistle (or was it a missile?).

one could build a system around nad components for way reasonable money and still be within the high end soundwise.

1. Preamp if separate from amp of course--NAD. of course i recommend used audio research tubed preamps as i have done with my sp3a1.

2. Amp--adcom (5400/5500)-very powerful and smooth, not bright as some misinformed people say. parasound and VTL are other considerations.

3. Speakers--psb alpha series, or gini sytems LS3/5a with sub for about $1150 (they image like crazy, warm). magneplanars are another cost effective way into the high end (i have MMGs).

4. Sources (List as many as you like. At the end you may include just one in the final price tally or all)--
sangean hd tuner, sony 5400 dvd/cd/sacd player ($1200) or marantz 6001 universal player (much less). i have a sony ns500v and marantz 6001 and the sangean tuner.

music hall or pro-ject tt, AT440MLa cart or grado red cart. i have a sota sapphire/mmt/fiedlity research combos and NUMEROUS other carts.

5. Cables--audioquest or kimber, keep prices down. AQ type 4 speaker cable is better than it should be for the price. yeah, i have both.

this will yield a system that punches way above its weight class.

the gini systems company is in pomona, i see you live here in socal. google search them, you can talk to tom poon and go hear them. vandersteens should also be considered.

i suggest joining the LA/OC audio society and you will get to see a LOT of things and kibitz with other like minded audiophiles and music lovers:

http://www.laocaudiosociety.net/

dont ask me how the font got magnified above, i just dont know. i have no connection with gini systems, i just talked to mr poon on the phone.

[pixelthis]

i feel the need to add to my previous mistle (or was it a missile?).

one could build a system around nad components for way reasonable money and still be within the high end soundwise.

1. Preamp if separate from amp of course--NAD. of course i recommend used audio research tubed preamps as i have done with my sp3a1.

2. Amp--adcom (5400/5500)-very powerful and smooth, not bright as some misinformed people say. parasound and VTL are other considerations.

3. Speakers--psb alpha series, or gini sytems LS3/5a with sub for about $1150 (they image like crazy, warm). magneplanars are another cost effective way into the high end (i have MMGs).

4. Sources (List as many as you like. At the end you may include just one in the final price tally or all)--
sangean hd tuner, sony 5400 dvd/cd/sacd player ($1200) or marantz 6001 universal player (much less). i have a sony ns500v and marantz 6001 and the sangean tuner.

music hall or pro-ject tt, AT440MLa cart or grado red cart. i have a sota sapphire/mmt/fiedlity research combos and NUMEROUS other carts.

5. Cables--audioquest or kimber, keep prices down. AQ type 4 speaker cable is better than it should be for the price. yeah, i have both.

this will yield a system that punches way above its weight class.

the gini systems company is in pomona, i see you live here in socal. google search them, you can talk to tom poon and go hear them. vandersteens should also be considered.

i suggest joining the LA/OC audio society and you will get to see a LOT of things and kibitz with other like minded audiophiles and music lovers:

http://www.laocaudiosociety.net/

dont ask me how the font got magnified above, i just dont know. i have no connection with gini systems, i just talked to mr poon on the phone.

LA/OC sounds pretty good if you are a Cali resident, although the entire state
disintegrating into barbarism might put a crimp on some of the meetings.
As for how the font got "magnified", hey! just lay off the crack, dude.:1:

[pixelthis]

The difference lies in what you consider audible as opposed to what I consider audible.

rw

THE DIFFERENCE is your inability to distingish what is between your ears as opposed
to whats in front of them.
Actual electrical interferrence is rare, my last Denon receiver picked up audio from a cab company from downtown, which is why it was my last Denon receiver.
If you have line interferrence you need to track it down.
If you think that a power cord produces any effect that will surrive the filter caps in a power
supply you need just snuggle up in your blanky and wait for the tooth fairy.
He is about as real.:1:

[hifitommy]

a typical statement for one who has a receiver based system. i guess we cant expect you to hear these things on YOUR system but until you own separates of sufficient clarity, youll be stuck where you are.

if youre happy there, more power to you. but to make statements that have no basis nor insight is childish. once (and IF) the demonstrattion has been made to you that you recognize there is a difference or improvement, you'll PERHAPS accept that the phenomenon exists. whether it makes a difference to you is you choice to change a wire or not is up to you.

for myself, none of my equipment has changeable power cables, they are all captive. i HAVE heard demos where the wire made a difference and it was subtle but there. i would have to try a power cable change in my system and then only change if i thought the difference was worthwhile. i AM after all, a cheapskate.

[pixelthis]

a typical statement for one who has a receiver based system. i guess we cant expect you to hear these things on YOUR system but until you own separates of sufficient clarity, youll be stuck where you are.

if youre happy there, more power to you. but to make statements that have no basis nor insight is childish. once (and IF) the demonstrattion has been made to you that you recognize there is a difference or improvement, you'll PERHAPS accept that the phenomenon exists. whether it makes a difference to you is you choice to change a wire or not is up to you.

for myself, none of my equipment has changeable power cables, they are all captive. i HAVE heard demos where the wire made a difference and it was subtle but there. i would have to try a power cable change in my system and then only change if i thought the difference was worthwhile. i AM after all, a cheapskate.


In other words I am one of the great unwashed and therefore don't know any better.
I DO HAVE A RECEIVER, but its a very nice one with exelent amps, not that it matters.
The best amps in the world wont pick up whats not there.
Crap like special "power cords" are just inventions of the marketing depts of these various companies, there is NO way these cords could provide any kind of difference that would
surrive the torroidial transformers and massive can cap filters of any decent amp.
HOWEVER if it makes you happy go ahead and help yourself, I am sure the copper miners of Arizona appreciate it.:1:

[hifitommy]

theres no sense in being childish about it. smoking wont hurt you. until you find out that it DOES.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you should have applied for one of PS Audio's free DVDs on the history of electricity. I doubt they are still available but you could check with www.amusicdirect.com to see. Ignorance is one thing but to make a stand on it is another. You should accept enough of us have had some improvement and keep an open mind. Even with higher end gear I once thought as you do. I was given a power cord to try and the improvement was very noticeable. It was more than subtle on my CD player and phono stage, my Krell amp was more subtle, on my Linn amp though, again the difference was not so subtle. On the Linn it wasn't what I'd call dramatic but it was enough I think most any one could tell. So my experience leads me to believe the power cords are most helpful with digital and lower signal level gear. My phono stage is what I'd call in the expensive range, what the aftermarket power cable done for it was, dramatic. If your power cord was detachable you should borrow one to try. I'd bet you would be afraid of the results.

[pixelthis]

Pix, you should have applied for one of PS Audio's free DVDs on the history of electricity. I doubt they are still available but you could check with www.amusicdirect.com to see. Ignorance is one thing but to make a stand on it is another. You should accept enough of us have had some improvement and keep an open mind. Even with higher end gear I once thought as you do. I was given a power cord to try and the improvement was very noticeable. It was more than subtle on my CD player and phono stage, my Krell amp was more subtle, on my Linn amp though, again the difference was not so subtle. On the Linn it wasn't what I'd call dramatic but it was enough I think most any one could tell. So my experience leads me to believe the power cords are most helpful with digital and lower signal level gear. My phono stage is what I'd call in the expensive range, what the aftermarket power cable done for it was, dramatic. If your power cord was detachable you should borrow one to try. I'd bet you would be afraid of the results.

HARDLY.
One thing my camp has had to put up with over the years is the rich fantasy life of those
who beleive in voodoo as opposed to fact.
The rationalists couldnt sway your type from speaker cables costing more than a second
car, and I doubt if we can sway you from wasting your money on power cables
and other such nonsense, which have even less " grounds" than audio cables.
In other words there is NO WAY that a "power cord" change could affect your gear.
If you think so fine, more "power" to you, but I have meger funds and cant waste
my money on fantasies.
I read a story once about a pilot, following his instruments he felt upside down
and going straight to the ground.
He panicked and started flying the way he thought he should as his senses
were telling him. He started ignoring his instruments, in other words.
HE FLEW STRAIGHT INTO THE GROUND.
In repeated debates with you on the subject, you don't seem to get one fact,
so I am going to repeat it...
THERE IS NO...Irepeat...NO way a power cord can affect the way a piece of audio gear can sound.
MAYBE ITS A LARGER GUAGE, giving the impression that there has been a change due to increased current, but otherwise you might as well be talking about faries on
the moon as far as I am concerned.
You think there is an "improvement"? Fine.
But I arrested a guy once who thought SATAN was watching him with a sattelite,
and that CASTRO WAS IN LEAGUE with him to send this guy to a dog food factory.
And I didn't beleive that guy, either.
To quote the lead vampire from the movie "30 days of night"...
"Oh, the things they beleive!".:1:

[pixelthis]

Which makes me curious about one thing, mainly, what is the supposed
instrumentality by which a power cord is supposed to "change" things?
In other words what did the marketing dept put in their ad copy to explain
this miracle(which is what it would be, that being what defies natural law)?:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you'd be almost humorous if you weren't so pathetic. You're like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole. He was unaware of the water department digging in that area. Ooooops.

Or, better yet you're like the guy who insisted on keeping with the square wheel because round couldn't be better. You never tried it but you relied on your feeble mind. So went to your grave never realizing the rest of the world had things better.

If I told you why power cords can make a difference you wouldn't understand any way.

[Luvin Da Blues]

.... like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole.
.

Does a fish have any concept of fire?

[E-Stat]

If you think that a power cord produces any effect that will surrive the filter caps in a power supply...
"Surrive the filter caps"? Non-experiential speculation does generate some interesting conclusions. :)

rw

[pixelthis]

Pix, you'd be almost humorous if you weren't so pathetic. You're like the blind guy that walked the same way to work every day, one day I told him to stop there's a big hole, he says I walk this way every day and kept going then fell in the hole. He was unaware of the water department digging in that area. Ooooops.

Or, better yet you're like the guy who insisted on keeping with the square wheel because round couldn't be better. You never tried it but you relied on your feeble mind. So went to your grave never realizing the rest of the world had things better.

If I told you why power cords can make a difference you wouldn't understand any way.

In other words you dont have a clue as to why a power cord would improve anything.
Because there is no reason.
You have imagined such an improvement and therefore it exists.
Do you have any imaginary friends also?
Ever see the movie "beautiful mind"?
Something like that going on here?:1:

[pixelthis]

"Surrive the filter caps"? Non-experiential speculation does generate some interesting conclusions. :)

rw

Its apparent that you have no "experience" with electronics.
IF your power cord does change raw electricity in some mysterious fashion
that changes sound in a audio device in yet another mysterious fashion...
YOUR GEAR IS BROKEN.
Caps, diodes, transformers, sheilding, voltage regulators, various other things, all have a much more massive effect on the current and voltage going into your gear than
the straight copper wire coming out of the wall socket.
And that copper wire is covered by regulations, it cant diff too much from norm.
You can make speaker wire and interconnects from silver, coat hangers if you want,
but a power cord has to be a certain guage with a certain amount of insulation.
not much you can do to it, and nothing that will affect what comes out the
other end of your power supply, whose job is to step up or down voltage and current,
filter and regulate it and make sure it is what your gear needs to work.
The whole idea of a power cord affecting sound of any sort of gear is silly on its face,
but if that is the case then you need to replace all of your cords, I guess they dont have one of these "special" cords hooked up to a power strip.
There is little enouigh difference in amps, a power cord sure wont make any difference.
Heres an interesting article , although I am sure you will dissmiss it, seeing as to how the scientific method is used.:1:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

[hifitommy]

and ignorant. that is a fact YOU need to take heed of. the more you say, the more obvious you make it.

its like a kind sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling over and over: "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALALALA!"



remember, you're in public.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, that article is either taken out of context or the DBT was rigged. For one thing the Futterman and other power amps need preamps while the Pioneer receiver would not, how did they deal with that for instance. Even if it was in print in S&V I don't believe it. When I took my teenage son to Circuit City some years back to buy his first receiver even he heard the difference between a Pioneer and Onkyo. The Pioneer sounded like crap with out the bass boost and worse than that with it. He had the money to buy the 100 watt Pioneer but borrowed the difference from me and bought a 48 watt Onkyo. There is no way in hell a Pioneer any thing, let alone one of their receivers going to match the bass response and control of that Levinson they were talking about. If people couldn't pick up on that there had to be something wrong. I've never heard a Futterman but being tube would lead me to believe there had to be some audible difference that any one should have been able to pick up on, a warmth in vocals or less harsh high end.

Maybe the source was Big Bird singing and they used megophones for speakers.

[E-Stat]

Its apparent that you have no "experience" with electronics.
IF your power cord does change raw electricity in some mysterious fashion
that changes sound in a audio device in yet another mysterious fashion...
YOUR GEAR IS BROKEN.
There's nothing mysterious about current transfer and filtering - at least to the rest of us. Speculation only carries you so far.


...but a power cord has to be a certain guage with a certain amount of insulation.
You really don't know what you don't know. Power cords can greatly exceed the bare norm. Mine are 6 gauge and have multiple shielding strategies - unlike the "basic" cords you envision.

not much you can do to it, and nothing that will affect what comes out the
other end of your power supply
You just can't imagine any way. :)


The whole idea of a power cord affecting sound of any sort of gear is silly on its face,
Only to the Devry Tech crowd.


but if that is the case then you need to replace all of your cords, I guess they dont have one of these "special" cords hooked up to a power strip.
You're actually beginning to understand things. Good.



Heres an interesting article , although I am sure you will dissmiss it, seeing as to how the scientific method is used.:1:
The "scientific method" supports neither the unproven assumption that ABX boxes don't affect the sound themselves (shared grounds combine the inputs of both amps -otherwise there would be huge *pops* during switching) AND your sophomoric extrapolation of the results of a single test to the rest of the universe. Do you know how old the Stereo Review test was?

That we have a different point of reference can be easily demonstrated. Try this. (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=26428) Good luck!

rw

[mlsstl]

Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this thread has become the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. ;-)

[pixelthis]

Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this thread has become the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. ;-)

Thats the way these things always end up.
YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.
But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.
Thats because there IS no such thing.
But if it makes em happy , them by all means waste your money.
But at the end of the day its just like the spinners on hubcaps.
Neet, BUT THATS ABOUT IT.:1:

[E-Stat]

Thats the way YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.
You're simply not paying attention. I'll repeat: It's about current delivery and shielding. I'll be more specific for your benefit. Shielding for both radiated and transmitted RF. You asked another poster about the results. Simple. Lower noise resulting in better low level resolution and more explosive dynamics for high powered amps. Admittedly, a typical HT receiver won't benefit the same as will my 300 watt 250 joule mono amps that draw ten amps each from the wall.


But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.
No, it's simply because such information is outside your experience! In Nelson Pass' latest dot five versions of his highly acclaimed amps, he has added even more RF filtering to address one of the underlying issues. He's been designing leading edge amplifiers for thirty years. Charles Hansen of Ayre includes his "Ayre Conditioner" power conditioning circuitry in all his new products. What has changed over the years is the electronic backdrop of the typical home environment. I've had discussions with Luke Manley of VTL and Jud Barber of Joule Electra on this topic as well. Ole Lund Christensen of GamuT also recognizes that which you do not in this (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=117899) discussion. Admittedly, this is not the kind of topic you'll find in stuff purchased at Best Buy. I'm really quite unconcerned whether or not you comprehend the concepts. As for me, I prefer to enjoy the results. :)

So, how did you do on the hearing acuity test?

rw

[Mr Peabody]

PS Audio has added a THD meter to the front of their new version of the Quintessence, you can see what the signal looks like coming in and going out. If Pix really cared he could pick up some good info from their website as to what these products are designed to clean and why they are in the signal. It's a shame he didn't get one of their DVD's on the history of electricity. Not a commercial at all more like a program for Discovery.

[JoeE SP9]

From Coal To Coltrane is one good DVD. It does seem like something PBS or Discovery would do. Although, I'm sure they wouldn't have made the sound so good. I've played it for friends and the thunderstorm sounds have prompted more than one to ask if it's raining outside.

[drmorgan]

Thats the way these things always end up.
YOU NOTICE that NOBODY has given a reason as to why a power cord would change
anything, E_STAT says a bunch of stufff about "sheilding", etc, nothing of which would make any difference.
But nobody can show a causative factor that would change the sound of anything.
Thats because there IS no such thing.
But if it makes em happy , them by all means waste your money.
But at the end of the day its just like the spinners on hubcaps.
Neet, BUT THATS ABOUT IT.:1:

I'm sure someone is overlooking that voltage is pressure and when released into a large cable such as a #6 it provides room for them to become less unruly and the the special amplifier monitor comes out and puts them perfectly end to end so they may arrive prepared to orchestrate, properly.

The power cord thing is of course NUTS, but there is something to the need for special cables to the speakers from the traditional zip cord.

Just speculation, but what if the amp maker for reasons only they know design to go beyond 20k (save money) and these spurious artifacts on the way out or back create some sort of field that impacts the quality of the outgoing?

Very, very mysterious or humorous. Not sure which at this point. I do know that the so called new and improved stuff saves them money Vs the old designs and with all this value added stuff required or you'll hear the those voices (remember when the groups said messages were in records played at lower speed or backwards?). This has left science, circuits, electricity and gone off to the 'gotta have faith' room in the sky somewhere or how.

[E-Stat]

I'm sure someone is overlooking that voltage is pressure and when released into a large cable such as a #6 it provides room for them to become less unruly...
Someone understands that amperage is flow and when playing dynamic musical content, the instantaneous current demand is much higher and doubling the basic requirement provides benefit.

rw

[pixelthis]

Someone understands that amperage is flow and when playing dynamic musical content, the instantaneous current demand is much higher and doubling the basic requirement provides benefit.

rw

What someone doesnt understand is THATS WHAT THE POWER SUPPLY DOES.
If your power cord is too "small" it will get a little warm...
THATS IT.
ALL your power cord does is provide current and voltage to whatever device its hooked up to, anything it does to that power is going to be minor compared to the many changes the power supplie(s) will put it through.:1:

[pixelthis]

PS Audio has added a THD meter to the front of their new version of the Quintessence, you can see what the signal looks like coming in and going out. If Pix really cared he could pick up some good info from their website as to what these products are designed to clean and why they are in the signal. It's a shame he didn't get one of their DVD's on the history of electricity. Not a commercial at all more like a program for Discovery.

Pioneers like ben franklin, Edison, etc, developed electricity, Nikolai Tesla
made it dance.
and I AM NOT INTERESTED IN a bunch of marketing gobbledegook that
MEANS NOTHING.
Electricity, what you need to understand is the history of electronics,
and the best book I have seen is kings of the air, an exelent read.
BTW during my three years in ELECTRONICS CLASS we had several occasions
to hook a scope up to a wall outlet, never saw anything but 120 volts AC.
Its really funny to read the ad copy of a lot of these "power" shysters, to hear them talk you would think we lived in a third world country, with electricity full of nasty artifacts.
Well, occasionally some nasty bits do sneak in, thats why power supplies have
filters.
But for the most part the power supply of the USA is the best in the world,
you just dont need this crap .
Baisically its a hammer without a nail.:1:

[E-Stat]

What someone doesnt understand is THATS WHAT THE POWER SUPPLY DOES.
We have a completely different frame of reference as to what constitutes high performance. And the ability to hear fine differences. So, how did you do on the distortion test? -18 db?

rw

[JoeE SP9]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity. We don't even know what it really is. We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties. However, we still don't know what it is.

As for monitoring the AC from the wall; while monitoring turn an air conditioner on and of, turn some digital devices on and of, dim or brighten the lights with a standard dimmer. Every one of these things will cause a deformation of the AC sine wave. This is quite easy to observe especially with a scope that has capture and storage. Capture and store a portion of the trace while turning devices on and off. Observe the stored waveform. You may need to magnify the trace to see it but you will see deformation of the AC sine wave.

Many of the things I plainly hear with my system such as the difference cables and wires make were inaudible until my gear got good enough. This is not a "dig" at those who don't have the same gear, merely a statement of fact. It's quite simple, better gear means more revealing.

Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies. Consequently they are just about immune to AC noise and hash. Choke type power supplies also have a high degree of freedom from AC noise and hash. Most gear having neither fully regulated or choke type power supplies can and does show artifacts in the DC rails. Those artifacts come directly from the AC. This can easily be seen by putting a scope probe on the DC rails.

Frankly I'm rather skeptical about some of the claims attributed to power cords. I won't issue blanket statements about their efficacy until I have tried a variety of them myself. I used to think all interconnects sounded the same. I was actually quite vocal and loud about there being no difference. After hearing differences demonstrated I had to revise my thinking. In the next few months I'll be trying different power cords. If there are audible differences I will probably purchase a couple. If I hear no differences the last thing I'll do is denigrate others who believe they here a difference. I certainly won't interject worthless comments about not being interested in a thread discussing what I don't believe. After all there is no such thing as the "Audio Police".

[Mr Peabody]

JoeE, hopefully you have a detachable cord on your phono stage. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I have had good luck personally with Transparent and MIT but PS Audio and Shunyata seem to be a couple top respected power cord providers.

[JoeE SP9]

I had an IEC connector installed in my SP-9 the last time it was serviced locally. That's why it was being serviced. I didn't have the proper size punch. My two amps in Hafler cases have also been fitted with IEC connectors. I'm all set.
The Cable Company and their subsidiary Used Cable are in New Hope PA. The used cables and wires are what I'll be looking at. They always have a decent selection of interconnects and cables for 35% to 60% of list. It's a half hour drive from Phila. I'll take my girlfriend and make a day of it. The entire town of New Hope is a tourist attraction.

Example
PS Audio Xstream Power Plus SC 2 Meter length List $279 Price $149

[E-Stat]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity.
What a breath of fresh air! The smartest folks in my experience know what they don't know.


Many of the things I plainly hear with my system such as the difference cables and wires make were inaudible until my gear got good enough. This is not a "dig" at those who don't have the same gear, merely a statement of fact. It's quite simple, better gear means more revealing.
Amen.


Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies. Consequently they are just about immune to AC noise and hash.
Luke Manley, Charles Hansen and Nelson Pass (among others) would likely disagree with that assessment. The VTL Siegfried uses a massive 800 joule regulated design, but can still benefit from aftermarket products. Luke readily admits such. I noticed that Erno Borbely's latest design looks similar to my Pass designed Threshold amp in that it uses massively cascoded output stages. See here. (http://www.borbelyaudio.com/pics/BorbelyAnnalsMMM508.pdf)


Frankly I'm rather skeptical about some of the claims attributed to power cords. I won't issue blanket statements about their efficacy until I have tried a variety of them myself.
As were most engineers and enthusiasts like me - at least until they experimented a bit and listened. :)

rw

[hifitommy]

when you dont grasp something, and others seem to, you cant yell them out of existence. again-LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU still doesnt make it in public.

i heard the diffs in interconnects long ago and quite by accident. i am not fanatic in that regard but i will always have aftermarket ICs in the main signal path.

people whose opinion i have grown to respect over decades hear diffs in power cabling. i will try them when i have a power amp and preamp that accepts iec connections. my arc sp3a1(c) has a captive power cable as does my adcom 555II amp. i can wait. my nuforce pre/pro accepts them but its not in the main signal path of audio. its used mostly for video component switching.

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.

[Smokey]

One of the main things I learned in 4 years of learning to be an Electrical Engineer was, we don't know everything about electricity.We don't even know what it really is. We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties. However, we still don't know what it is.

That might be true philosophically, but not true physically. We might not know what is , but we can with great accuracy predict its behavior. Given that we can virtually express any electrical properties mathematically give an idea of how predictable electricity is.

[pixelthis]

when you dont grasp something, and others seem to, you cant yell them out of existence. again-LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU still doesnt make it in public.

i heard the diffs in interconnects long ago and quite by accident. i am not fanatic in that regard but i will always have aftermarket ICs in the main signal path.

people whose opinion i have grown to respect over decades hear diffs in power cabling. i will try them when i have a power amp and preamp that accepts iec connections. my arc sp3a1(c) has a captive power cable as does my adcom 555II amp. i can wait. my nuforce pre/pro accepts them but its not in the main signal path of audio. its used mostly for video component switching.

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.
well, here is the LAST WORD then.
I dont care about what preceived "differences" you or anyone else "hears".
Ask most people in the early 1400's and they would swear up and down that the world
is flat, does that make the world flat?
PEOPLE are the worst "witnesses" in the world.
Most cant hear much beyond 11,000 -12,000 hz, and a lot of time hope and imagination
makes up a lot of the experience.
Ever see a movie where the ship (starship or otherwise) doesnt "feel" right?
Doesnt happen in real life, boilers mates go by instruments, as does the operators of
nuclear power plants.
You say you "hear" a difference (I dont) when you switch out a power cable, and as a reason you throw out a bunch of lame excuses like "RF" (none of which a power
cable usually picks up) and better sheilding, and a larger guage.
Its all silly silly nonsense as the national lampoon would say.
Your hearing was evolved to pick up sounds mostly from bears and the like,
its a surrvival tool, not a lab instrument.
Thats why during these arguments the pro side keeps mentioning what they "hear",
they have very little else on which to back their claims.
And that is ALL they are, really.
There is scant evidence that fancy audio cables are better than plain ones .
There is even less that power cables do more than part someone with his money.
You want one ? Fine, I am not the "cable" police, but I wont spend big bucks based on what someone "hears", I spent too much time in law enforcement, and I know just what a lousy witness the human animal can be.:1:

[drmorgan]

We can’t presume people who ‘hear’ differences after changing power cords are crazy. Perhaps they have gear that’s built without some type of shielding that has been added into the cords? I still can’t explain or fathom why one would benefit from special cables to the speakers, unless the amplifier produces some sort of artifact that introduces noise that needs to be curtailed. But, I’ll pass on some history about a five-year battle over power quality even though I don’t know how that plays into what people claim to hear.

We had to call electricians frequently for a newly completed home. I eventually put a voltmeter to the outlets and called the Utility when I saw unusual fluctuations that I’d call mini spikes.

They placed a box at the meter with a large round chart but on a different meter (caretakers) and removed a special meter from that had a pair of hands which registered low or high voltage till ‘reset.’ It was rather antique like but could be seen from the road. I never recorded what it showed as I’d never given much thought about voltage variations till I was watching my meter. The utility removed it without explaining and later they picked up the box recorder.

The needle of the chart machine showed a smooth transition from 118 to 124 volts with no jags or sags evident. After it went ‘missing’ the utility called to report: ‘Power is fine, you have a bad voltmeter.’ I had lost some small motors, a compressor and solar collection pumps. Bulbs were not lasting and ballasts or ‘starters’ in some light units failed. I got a second voltmeter from the lab and put that in another leg and the fluctuations were obvious. As mentioned earlier if you turn on or off something you might see a sag (if your grounds at the panel are poor, if you are on the leg asking for more or reducing) on the breaker that’s involved. Otherwise you should NOT see fluctuations of more than 1 or 2 volts. We were seeing ten and slow recovery, yet fast falls

Later I would learn that their meter ‘averages’ and compresses what is charted on that machine. Thus it could be very high, very low and the pen would track an average thus any spikes or sags were not evident. They’re supposed to provide 114-124vac on each leg at your meter and 60 cycles. In authorized brownouts they may supply 10% less. They bill by KWh, so we’re not charged more (the fact some things lose efficiency such as Heat pumps, freezers or solar water circulation systems are not factors they consider). The fact that low voltage will increase heat does not change watts, but may depreciate insulation in some things, depending on designs and work factors. The fact that homes usually don’t include high work factor motors or other gear tends to make a home prone to losses.

I kept a worksheet of readings and photographed the obvious disparity a few times. Actual daytime voltage was 118-122, but each evening it went as low as 96 at least when I could ‘catch’ a read such as adding on a load. If a load was applied (say 100 amps.), I could drop it to 90. With normal power it might sag a volt, but this dropped and remained low. Important fact here. The power would drop if I put on 100 amp loads, and took a long time to come back up, perhaps to 106 and the bad things happen in the evening.

They countered that properly made devices have no difficulty with low voltage and most likely you just don’t have your meter on a good leg or calibrated properly. Further said that from a nominal 110v inside your home, you can sustain at least -10-20%. They told me to have my breaker panel looked into for bad grounds.

Nothing was wrong, the losses continued and when the element in a wall oven blew a hole in it and the probes in the near new water heater went out. I contacted other neighbors. Many were losing too and complaints were dealt with using that same recorder.

Eventually I learned we were on the end of a 19-mile run from the sub station. The line was built under rural electrification grants or low interest loans and never upgraded as homes were added along the run. If we had any hard rain or wind, we’d be out of power from 3-7 days as tree limbs touched and shorted. They’d been granted rate increases to modernize twice in 40 years (without doing it). We formed a committee to look into getting something done.

I brought a recording voltmeter from our shop and set it up to track voltage in real time. The results were looked more like earth quakes than the averaging method they used to assure us all was fine. Some 30 rolls of real time records showed not only seriously and long durations of low voltage from 5-10PM, but frequent surges and spikes in the period and the next morning too.

Being at the end of the 19 miles such events are amplified, like at the end of whip. Losses were high by the time our PUC set up a hearing and another year passed before boosters were ordered installed about 4 miles North and surge suppression placed at the end of the line.

Soon the utility replaced my transformer and then came to dig up the 640’ of buried aluminum for our 200-amp service (thankfully the meter was at the house rather than the pole or I’d have had to pay that underground cost). The underground had deteriorated due to overheating in low voltage!

Daytime voltage went up and nighttime was never again below what the PUC required (114v). Surges and spikes stopped, pumps and motors hummed and lights lasted.

The losses on my side for replacements and labor were into five figures. I filed a claim with the PUC. Eventually got a credit of $500 due to inefficiency. The period covered by my claim ran into the three-year statute of limitations. Lesson, file a claim as you file a compliant. It took five years to get a fix from when I noted the erratic voltage. Pick well-qualified electricians who will look to your supply issues and have you take a read in the evening when folks come home and turn things on to load the circuit you are supplied by.

Surges and spikes upstream from your home are managed in cities before they get to you on modern systems. The system serving us was old and overloaded due to the length and development that added several thousand users since designed.

Some surges are created in your own home by poor grounding and overloaded circuits or sharing with capacitor start devices. Avoid putting sensitive items on the same circuit with a microwave, motor or compressor. Poor grounding or too much drawing on a leg (unbalanced loads), all contribute to in home spikes.

We added some of the common power conditioning devices on so called sensitive gear like the fax and computers once power quality was known to be poor. I never lost any of that gear, but lost some of the units that switch to battery and develop their own power.

We never noticed a decline in volume or glitches from anything such as the sound, radios or computer gear. A few times we’d notice a shrink in the size of the TV picture (they all have the warm up circuitry to avoid long wait time), no losses to DVD’s, VCR’s, or so called sensitive items.

All the pumps for the solar water circulation and recovery, water heater elements, compressors and dozens of common bulbs and ballasts failed early.

None in the stereo gear went out. Devices that had relays showed point burning probably from low voltage.

Those who see artifacts on a scope are not seeing ghosts. Low voltage is more damaging than high and produces more heat. A common voltmeter will help to see if you get sags when you turn on and off other devices. A good practice is to trip all breakers yearly and tighten any screw to the buss and the breaker. Most wall outlets are strip and insert, but if you have screws make certain all are tight.

Conclusion: Some audio gear manages poor quality power and some don’t. The reason for this seems to be design flaws. Maybe your hearing is fine, maybe you’ve been influenced by things other than good engineering. I only know that we heard nothing from the system and most important.. the dogs did not.

[JoeE SP9]

Smokey:
That's what I said: "We have tools and formula's that enable us to use it and describe it's properties."

pixelthis:
If you don;'t care what others hear or don't hear why are you making such a big fuss? If you had better gear even you might hear the differences we hear. I know, you don't believe there is any gear that sounds better than yours. That's something else we have different opinions about. Please let those we have an opinion that differs from yours think differently in peace.

Any sailor in the 1400's knew the earth wasn't flat. When you see the top of the mast of an approaching ship first there can be only one reason. It was religious "dogma" that insisted the earth was flat. That same sort of "dogma" is what you are pushing on everyone else with your "I studied electronics for 3 years and know everything" attitude.

There is noise and hash that gets by the capacitors in power supplies. Just monitor the DC rails with a storage scope. I have done this and have seen noise and hash riding the DC. Are you now going to tell me it isn't there? Have you bothered to look, to confirm my claim?

I've already spent a tidy sum on Kimber Silver Streak IC's. They are worth the money and I recommend them unless they will be used in a RFI rich environment. So, I will try some "audio grade" power cables. I will monitor the DC supply rails in my amps looking for differences. I will also listen. If I see/hear a difference for the better I'll buy. I might buy because I like the way they look or just to piss you off. It's my money and I'll spend it however I please.

We are not "perps". We are not giving a witness statement to the "cops". Equating your experience with the criminal element and crime in general with what we say we hear or don't hear is an example of what's wrong with the "police" mentality. Cops think everyones a "perp" until proven innocent. Frankly, it's unfair and quite bigoted to think of us that way. None of us are under duress or any kind of strain. We are under no obligation to tell you what you think is the truth. If you don't like what we have to say don't join in.

BTW:
If you are ever in the Philadelphia area let me know. You could come over. We'd hoist a few listen to some music and maybe, just maybe you would hear a difference in cables. If not, who cares. LIGHTEN UP!!!!

[JoeE SP9]

What a breath of fresh air! The smartest folks in my experience know what they don't know.


Amen.


Luke Manley, Charles Hansen and Nelson Pass (among others) would likely disagree with that assessment. The VTL Siegfried uses a massive 800 joule regulated design, but can still benefit from aftermarket products. Luke readily admits such. I noticed that Erno Borbely's latest design looks similar to my Pass designed Threshold amp in that it uses massively cascoded output stages. See here. (http://www.borbelyaudio.com/pics/BorbelyAnnalsMMM508.pdf)


As were most engineers and enthusiasts like me - at least until they experimented a bit and listened. :)

rw
While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do. The lower voltage stages (input and driver) usually have regulated supplies. The output stages usually don't. Standard practice is to rectify the AC and use massive filtering. Looking at schematics will support this. It's very expensive to build a high current 50V (for example) DC regulator with no current limiting. When I built mine years ago each regulator (2 needed) cost more than the amp. It's kind of like building an amp to use as a power supply.

Unregulated power on the output stage may be a reason why aftermarket power cords make such a difference on power amps. That unregulated DC needs all the help it can get.

Cascoded output refers to the topology of the output stage not the power supply.

[E-Stat]

While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do.
Both it and the S400 do. Read this (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1205vtl/index1.html).


Cascoded output refers to the topology of the output stage not the power supply.
That was just an aside. When I saw the schematic, it reminded me of the Stasis.

rw

[Feanor]

Both it and the S400 do. Read this (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1205vtl/index1.html).
...

rw

So we begin to understand why the likes of the Siegfried are in the megabuck category.

'Stat, it is less astonishing that you or Joe here fine differences in your ultra-resolving systems resulting from I/C and P/C changes. What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

I certainly envy such people, (for instance Mr Peabody), since they must be blessed with superb hearing. I'll admit once again that my hear isn't good: I hear nothing above 10 kHz (not at least at 80 dB). Also tinnitus is the bain of my existence; basically having a very "silent" piece of equipment is irrelevant to me.

Thus I never categorically state that difference don't exist. But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard). And I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=JoeE SP9]While the Siegfried may use a fully regulated power supply as far as I know none of the others do. The lower voltage stages (input and driver) usually have regulated supplies. The output stages usually don't. Standard practice is to rectify the AC and use massive filtering. Looking at schematics will support this. It's very expensive to build a high current 50V (for example) DC regulator with no current limiting. When I built mine years ago each regulator (2 needed) cost more than the amp. It's kind of like building an amp to use as a power supply.

* This is why those products that claim to regenerate perfect clean power are not true or ultra expensive. It's basically another amp. Especially, one to produce enough current for a higher end amp.

[JoeE SP9]

Both it and the S400 do. Read this (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1205vtl/index1.html).


That was just an aside. When I saw the schematic, it reminded me of the Stasis.

rw
You're correct. I should have been more specific.

It's neither as difficult or as expensive to build fully regulated power supplies for tube amps.Tubes are voltage driven devices. High voltage low current regulation while not cheap, is not prohibitively expensive.

For SS lots of current is necessary. That's why large filter caps are required. The regulator is after the caps (more caps follow the regulator) and needs to pass high current with no limiting. That's the hard and expensive part. By definition a regulator will minimize any spurious noise. That's why I said a fully regulated SS amp may exhibit less benefit from an upgraded power cord.

I would expect any amp that has fully regulated power supplies to be less apt to be effected by hash and noise from AC. Theoretically any filtering or shielding provided by the power cord would be unnecessary because the regulator would reject any noise or hash.

This is not to say an upgraded power cord will not have an effect. It probably won't be as evident with a fully regulated power supply.

Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive.

Properly done, linear regulation has to go beyond the cursory
requirements of the amplifier ratings. The regulator should be capable
of ten times the current of the continuous output of the amplifier channel.
The regulator should be preceded and followed by large capacitances
with values comparable to those needed for unregulated circuits. The
transformer size still needs to be as big as that used in an unregulated
circuit.

[E-Stat]

What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.
I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played. I'll readily admit the differences are indeed subtle. Not the "even my girlfriend who's not an audiophile heard the difference from another room" sort of thing. Most pop music won't reveal the differences due to compression that restricts both ends. I like using the bass concert drum to hear the difference in bass dynamics. Does the speed startle you? Can it raise the hairs on your arm? The other benefit lies at the other end of the dynamic spectrum. It is hearing subtle detail during the ppp sections. The first time I heard the Kimber Palladians in my system, JWC suggested we play Holst' Choral Hymms from the Rig Veda. There was a particular passage where the female vocalizations were more clearly heard. At a very low level. I always enjoy the experience of hearing some nuance in a recording that I had never been aware of before.


But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard).
I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.



I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.
Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

rw

[E-Stat]

Below is an excerpt from a Nelson Pass white paper. It may help explain why full regulation in SS amps is so expensive...
And why the latest versions of his superb amps have additional RFI isolation.

rw

[Feanor]

I think you may be shortchanging the resolution of your system. Most audiophiles would be very happy with your nicely driven Maggies. I think the determining factor (beyond a certain level of experience as to the sound of live music and a passion for listening - can you play back a piece of music in your head hearing all the parts?) is the type of music played.
....

I've been lucky in that I've had two mentors with rich musical backgrounds who helped teach me as to what to listen for. I think you would be surprised if you had some guidance.
...


Well, no disagreement. For my part I listen almost exclusively to classical music, so there is no lack of complexity by which to judge.

I have been into hifi for 37+ years and have a pretty good idea what to listen for -- OK, maybe I'd have an even better idea if I'd had mentors of the sort you mention. Motivation is part of it: beyond a certain point I simply don't care about such small differences as might exist. By this I mean I'm just not prepare to swap equipment in and out to do the comparision to confidently define the nature of the differences -- yes, this means I'm a less hardcore audiophile.

I recently commented on the differences because of a new DAC and a tube buffer that I acquired, (see the Digital & Computer forum), but I'm content to say that I had a vague impression of this-or-that without feeling need to prove it to myself much less insist on the validity for anyone else.


...
Agreed. I would, however, readily recommend a $100 power conditioner to them for multiple reasons. I use them on all my sources.

rw

I agree and use equipment by Tripp Lite and Belkin to provide RMI/EFI filtering and isolation as well as surge protection. I try to use shielded power cords on all my digital equipment and ferrite filters on all other power cords and non-digital I/Cs.

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".

[JoeE SP9]

So we begin to understand why the likes of the Siegfried are in the megabuck category.

'Stat, it is less astonishing that you or Joe here fine differences in your ultra-resolving systems resulting from I/C and P/C changes. What is more surprising is that those with somewhat more modest equipment, (say in the range of my own), can confidently insist that they hear clear differences that must be very small by their natures.

I certainly envy such people, (for instance Mr Peabody), since they must be blessed with superb hearing. I'll admit once again that my hear isn't good: I hear nothing above 10 kHz (not at least at 80 dB). Also tinnitus is the bain of my existence; basically having a very "silent" piece of equipment is irrelevant to me.

Thus I never categorically state that difference don't exist. But I stay on recorded that I personally have never heard PC differences and rarely if ever I/C differences, (at least among low to medium cost examples I've heard). And I still feel very confident in recommending against people with entry to mid-level equipment paying a lot for these items beyond getting shielded wire -- for them it's simple: the money can be better spend elsewhere.
It's not how high you hear. It's how well.

In an earlier post I mentioned that the small differences I hear were inaudible until my gear got good. So, I agree with your recommendations concerning PC's and IC's for entry and mid level gear.

Both of my Haflers have fully regulated power supplies with cap and resistor replacement/upgrade on the input driver board, gain matched MOSFETS, toroidal transformers, doubled power supply capacitance, WBT's in and out, IEC connector and spiked feet. They don't sound much like the originals.

I recently wired a friends system with red and black Mogami IC's and speaker cables. It looks very nice sounds good and didn't cost an arm and a leg.

http://www.mogamicable.com/index01.html

[JoeE SP9]

I didn't realize that my hearing ability was really out of the ordinary. I will be more thankful. I can't agree all differences are subtle either. Maybe between some high quality cables any difference could be subtle but what I hear between a stock cable and a higher quality cable like, Transparent, for instance, to my perception I would think any one could hear the difference provided they have reasonably good gear. I don't think the gear has to be high end either. I can hear differences on my Adcom system. The difference between the BJC and Transparent RCA's were clearly evident.

On power conditioning although to me the difference in sound quality was well worth the money, especially on my CD player and phono stage, but what I hear there may not be evident to those without experience listening to my system. Even if I could A/B it, I doubt if the average person would zero in on the background being quieter or pick up on the additional subtleties provided. But some of the differences in cables to me seem vivid. The reason I feel most any one could is some cables give obvious clues that I would think those closely listening ought to hear, such as a brighter high end or more punch or definition in the bass. Sometimes the soundstage is different, maybe one is flatter or wider, some are not as good at positioning and a background singer can actually be in a different place, not like all the way across the sound stage, but maybe some what behind the main singer vs off to the right some. I can pick up on these cues and still enjoy the music, in fact, some of this is what I enjoy, but maybe some people don't have the attention to detail opposed to a difference in hearing ability. I can't explain for any one why I am able to hear these things. One clue may be that most people are visual learners, I am not for the most part. any corporate teaching program will emphasize the need for props like slides, poster board, now the big thing is Power Point, I personally can sit and listen to a lecture, provided it doesn't put me to sleep, and retain what I have heard with out reading a page or looking at the presentation.

Feanor, with a limit to 10k it could help you focus on the range you have, more so. If you have consistent ringing that would certainly seem to be something that would mask some differences.

I hope that no one doubts what I post. Throughout my years hear at AR I have been consistent about my experiences. People can choose to believe me or not. Personally, if I didn't hear a difference I wouldn't spend the money either. What doesn't seem consistent to me is why a person might hear well enough to evaluate a piece of gear then not be able to hear any difference in cables. Possible the person weighs more than the sound, factors like looks, other's opinions etc. I don't have the answer, just the question. I mean if one can hear a difference between Krell and Levinson which in my mind they used to be pretty close, but if that small difference is really heard then they should be able to hear the difference in certain cables. Especially, stock to "boutique".

Well said. If the lecture is given by a particularly good speaker I'm sometimes mesmerized. We all hear but some of us always pay more attention to what we hear. This is reflected in what we hear when listening to music.In my experience people who easily hear small changes others don't, tend to pay more attention to sound all the time. It's not hearing better or having "Golden Ears". It's the habit of not just hearing but always listening.

BTW: The Krell FPB series amps do nothing for me. The old KSA's and KMA's are the bomb!

[Mr Peabody]

I tend to agree on the older Krell, one of the things that I enjoyed was the pitch black background, it just had a nice feel with out being what people call "warm". The newer amps to me perpetuate their received criticisms of being cold and/or analytical.

I do that, "listen all the time". I will be some place, maybe getting a hair cut and make a comment and the person not have the slightest idea what I'm talking about and I'll say "on the radio" or "the TV". I just assume others listen too. Sometimes I'll ride with people and their car stereo will be off balance and I'll have to bring it to their attention. Or, the people that make me want to jump are the ones who will keep it on a station when it doesn't come in all the way. I'm like how can you stand that noise. That's weird, I think you just brought the obvious to my attention. I don't want to go off on a tangent but I have so many examples. Maybe you should look into being a therapist :)

[Mr Peabody]

JoeE, just curious, are you also more of an analytical type personality? I found out I am myself. I thought for the longest time I couldn't make decisions but the thing is I can't make a decision with out enough information to sway me to one direction. If I go to buy something like an appliance I know nothing about I guarantee the salesman will earn his money this day or I will go some place else. I want to know why this one is $50.00 more and is that difference something I'll need etc. If I can't get that info necessary to help me to one model over another then I just can't decide. And, I'm like that on many things in my life not just buying things. I know this by doing an exercise at work, it was supposed to teach us something. I forgot that main idea but it was like a light bulb coming on when it showed me to be an analytical thinker.

[JoeE SP9]

Mr Peabody;
If anything, I may be even more anal in this respect. On more than one occasion I've asked if I could change to a salesperson who knew the product. I always research any thing I buy including appliances. Although washing machine's don't interest me that much, when purchasing I usually know more about them than the salesperson.
For me paying attention spills over into the visual. I often say. "Did you see that"? The usual response is. "See what"? Paying attention to things is second nature to me. I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.

[mlsstl]

I've always wondered how people can go through life unaware of their surroundings.
My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."

[JoeE SP9]

My experience is that different people notice different things. I can be quite observant about some things and clueless regarding others. It can be quite interesting sometimes to see how my wife and I each describe an evening after we've been out together.

And, we all have stories of some very bright person that can describe the minutest detail of one item but be completely unaware of something else. I've never met a person who is universally observant about "everything."

Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.

[Feanor]

Being universally observant would probably lead to information overload. Even so, there are differences in people. Some observe more some less. I'm firmly in the more camp.

I've know a few brilliant people, in my case mostly business executives.

They could always see the "big picture", but more remarkable in a way was their ability to "drill down" to discover and fully appreciate those fine details that were pivotal in the situation.

[Rudy Gireyev]

i have a suggestion. it seems pixie wants to have THE LAST WORD. we should let him do so and then abandon this thread or have the moderators lock it. we are beginning to get down in the sandbox with him.
That's certainly one way to handle it. Or perhaps bringing it back on topic would be another way. ;)

Rudy

[02audionoob]

Around here, it seems the busiest threads are the ones based on a polar disagreement, whether it started out on that or not.

[Mr Peabody]

Uh, what was the question? :)

[E-Stat]

That's certainly one way to handle it. Or perhaps bringing it back on topic would be another way. ;)
Yes, the thread drift occurred very early with some uninformed opinion stated as fact. :)

rw

[hifitommy]

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/846773.html

it was just THERE.

[pixelthis]

Yes, the thread drift occurred very early with some uninformed opinion stated as fact. :)

rw

Righto, some misguided fool actually stated that you can hear a difference between power cords, implying that there is a difference.:1:

[E-Stat]

Righto, some misguided fool actually stated that you can hear a difference between power cords, implying that there is a difference.:1:
Keep looking, Pix. Notice the earlier post where twenty five year old unscientific data was extrapolated as being valid in the present. Can you say bogus? I'm certainly glad the surgeon who performed my lasik surgery didn't rely on decades old findings and better still - he actually had direct experience in the matter. Perhaps you rely on mere speculation - dated at best, but I certainly don't! :)

rw

[pixelthis]

Keep looking, Pix. Notice the earlier post where twenty five year old unscientific data was extrapolated as being valid in the present. Can you say bogus? I'm certainly glad the surgeon who performed my lasik surgery didn't rely on decades old findings and better still - he actually had direct experience in the matter. Perhaps you rely on mere speculation - dated at best, but I certainly don't! :)

rw

Now you're just getting silly(no, wait, you just started at silly and are working your way down)
So when you had this lasik done did you check the good doctors power cables?
Funny you should mention doctors, they as a breed dont have time for nonsense,
I hope you got one that pays no attention to his "feelings", going instead by scientific fact.
And you don't have a factual basis for your "beleif" that a power cord "changes"
the sound coming out of a system in some magical fashion, just what you "hear"
in a set of rapidly aging ears made out of meat, that have lost a good deal of their response if you are anywhere near fiftty.
And you never will have any factrual basis for your claims...
BECAUSE THERE ISNT ONE!
Is bigfoot real? BRING ME A CARCASS.
UFO'S?
PARK one in my front yard.
Magical changes (maybe they use "special" copper) in audio caused by the most insignifigant part of a power delivery chain?
On what basis?
Again, THERE ISNT ONE.
At least with Santa you can claim you see one every christmas.:1:

[hifitommy]

this playpen should be closed.

[02audionoob]

Maybe this sort of thing is why the AR community is small...just a guess.

[E-Stat]

Maybe this sort of thing is why the AR community is small...just a guess.
It has long consisted of those who engage in ad hominem attacks. The other site I frequent has some of that ilk, but they are typically banned if not for a short time when they resort to that approach.

I was (and continue to be ) amazed by those who exert such effort to talk about what they think does NOT exist.

rw

[hifitommy]

this CAN be stopped.

[Feanor]

It has long consisted of those who engage in ad hominem attacks. The other site I frequent has some of that ilk, but they are typically banned if not for a short time when they resort to that approach.

I was (and continue to be ) amazed by those who exert such effort to talk about what they think does NOT exist.

rw

The option is there to simply ignore rude or ignorant posts. I suggest we do this more often rather than responding indignantly.

[E-Stat]

Is bigfoot real? BRING ME A CARCASS.
UFO'S?
PARK one in my front yard.
Magical changes (maybe they use "special" copper) in audio caused by the most insignifigant part of a power delivery chain?
On what basis?
Again, THERE ISNT ONE.
At least with Santa you can claim you see one every christmas.:1:
It is a shame that there are some who feel they most resort to the lowest of logical fallacies - the ad hominem attack. It shows more about that poster's lack of integrity more than anything else. If I had not retired from begin a moderator, I would have given you a warning long ago and afterwards, simply deleted your posts or suspended your account. It is fine that individuals have a difference of opinion. What is not fine is when one resorts to unbecoming behavior. And you say you were once an officer of the law? The mind boggles.

rw

[pixelthis]

It is a shame that there are some who feel they most resort to the lowest of logical fallacies - the ad hominem attack. It shows more about that poster's lack of integrity more than anything else. If I had not retired from begin a moderator, I would have given you a warning long ago and afterwards, simply deleted your posts or suspended your account. It is fine that individuals have a difference of opinion. What is not fine is when one resorts to unbecoming behavior. And you say you were once an officer of the law? The mind boggles.

rw

In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
it is you.
I shouldn't really bother with the magical fairy dust wing of AUDIO, it is really a waste
of time, they aren't the least bit interested in the facts of the situation, just in making themselves feel better because they have an 1800$ power cord which does as much for their system as painting the amp pink.
But Bob MARLEY said that the people working to make the world worse ain't taking a
day off, and while those who persist in spreading such nonsense as "special"
power cables might not be as bad as all that, the money they persuade others
to waste that could have gone into actual improvements doesnt help at all,
and to newcomers the whole thing seems rather silly.
Oh well, people used to beleive that the world was flat, and they got over that.
And again , if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy buying the equivalent
of a spinner on a hubcap while a bunch of marketing sharks sit around in a room laughing at you, then by all means indulge yourself.
I have better things to do with my money than make a fool out of myself.:1:

[E-Stat]

In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
it is you.
Look up the term ad hominem and get back with us. Then provide your *proof* that the shielded cords to which I refer do not lower the noise floor of systems in the real world. Understand that proof is NOT speculation. It is not what you read in a text book either.

rw

[hifitommy]

if you arent, get it changed and have the new one end this fallacy. it seems pixie won't stop, just like a child.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, It's not that any one wants to get rid of another for having different opinions, it's your refusal to accept there may be somethings you don't know or aren't aware of. So you argue for the sake of arguing. Just like when I tried to show you two signals of the same frequency 180 degrees out of phase cancel each other. We'd still be arguing if I hadn't given up despite all the links to Dr. Bose articles and anything else I could post in print to prove to you that you were wrong. This is just an example so let's not go here.

There are many variables in peoples systems and local power and household usage, this could lead to also variable results, so one has to try power products for themselves to see if any benefit comes of it. What benefit to E-stat, Tommy or myself if you use a power cord, none what so ever. So why would we say something that isn't true? I know what I hear and don't hear. I can't guarantee any one they will have the same result as me but it doesn't make my result imagination. There are also bound to be some who may manufacture a product without the best integrity, so you always have to try the product to see if it performs or not. But the power product and higher end cable market flurrished based on letting people take these things home and trying them. If nothing happened these companies wouldn't be here today.

The point is we convey our results based on actual use of the product where you argue against based on nothing but what you think or suppose should happen. Learn to state your doubts and leave it lay.

[drmorgan]

In other words you don't agree with me so you want to get rid of me.
Guess what? stating fact is not an "attack", if anyone is doing any "attacking"
it is you.
I shouldn't really bother with the magical fairy dust wing of AUDIO, it is really a waste
of time, they aren't the least bit interested in the facts of the situation, just in making themselves feel better because they have an 1800$ power cord which does as much for their system as painting the amp pink.
But Bob MARLEY said that the people working to make the world worse ain't taking a
day off, and while those who persist in spreading such nonsense as "special"
power cables might not be as bad as all that, the money they persuade others
to waste that could have gone into actual improvements doesnt help at all,
and to newcomers the whole thing seems rather silly.
Oh well, people used to beleive that the world was flat, and they got over that.
And again , if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy buying the equivalent
of a spinner on a hubcap while a bunch of marketing sharks sit around in a room laughing at you, then by all means indulge yourself.
I have better things to do with my money than make a fool out of myself.:1:

I am more and more forming the opinion that it is possible they do hear something that is cancelled when they buy those special cable products. I think that when they buy the gear that creates a need for them (real or imagined) that its like those special tags someone forgot to cancel or remove at the check out. Some manufacturer or dealer has tagged them and things won't be right or the ringing stop till they remove the secret device or snap the fingers after saying the right thing.

Don't close the thread before 'they' decide. I have it from the sky fairy that this special power and noise thing is a plot by some superior being playing with another of his species (we used to have many gods, but just five now hold the franchise for earth) to see who buys science or who buys more mysticism.

[JoeE SP9]

As Mr Peabody has already said, either there are a awful lot of people who in a home audition are fantasizing or you (pixelthis and drmorgan) simply can't hear well enough.
We don't constantly deride someone for having "vintage gear" or a "mass market" receiver.

There are so many who hear these small differences it would behoove you to find out for yourself instead of denigrating those you disagree with.

[Rudy Gireyev]

I sure wish we had the ability to moderate the threads that we have started. I would love to clip the off topic discussion and create it as a new thread in the appropriate forum. :wink5: :wink5:

So how about it Mr. Mod? Any chance you might have pity and do this for us?

Rudy

P.S. Just in case the above does not happen. Remember folks that it takes two to tango. The argument has clearly turned into a competition to see who will win. And neither side seems to have any interest of backing down. Or even the remote willingness to let go. Which in an odd way puts both sides into the same emotional camp even if they are in separate audio camps. :shocked: :crazy: :confused5: :eek:

[E-Stat]

So how about it Mr. Mod? Any chance you might have pity and do this for us?
If you're referring to me, I retired from that job some time ago like Sir Terrence. Looks like they didn't take the keys away, but I no longer moderate. Perhaps my "Retired Mod" label wasn't emphatic enough.

As my last official act, I have closed the thread.

rw