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bubbagump
04-21-2009, 04:41 AM
They livened up the forum. CE with his Legacy Foci (one in one room, the other in another) and Mtrycraft's line of reason vs the audiophile insane clown posse?

Feanor
04-21-2009, 05:51 AM
They livened up the forum. CE with his Legacy Foci (one in one room, the other in another) and Mtrycraft's line of reason vs the audiophile insane clown posse?

bubba,

I haven't seen Mtrycraft around here for years. He's likely in the land of the living, though, as saw him on another forum a year or so ago.

Can't say I recall CE, but I might be just forgetting since I've been around here since '02.

GMichael
04-21-2009, 06:05 AM
Don't know about CE, but I've seen Mtrycraft over at Audioholics now and then.

E-Stat
04-21-2009, 10:32 AM
...but I've seen Mtrycraft over at Audioholics now and then.
Now and then? He's now an Audioholics Overlord !

rw

GMichael
04-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Now and then? He's now an Audioholics Overlord !

rw

Hahaha... Maybe I'm the one who's only there now and then.

drseid
04-21-2009, 12:10 PM
CE... My goodness that is a name that takes me back to a time I was using a different user name.... been so long I can't even remember what it was. I will say that I was a Legacy speaker owner back then and was ready to hunt him down for all of his Focus ridiculousness. He set Legacy Audio sales back 10 years with his over-the-top Focus bravado.

Mtrycrafts I actually miss. While I may not have agreed with him all the time, I found him quite rational and interesting.

---Dave

E-Stat
04-21-2009, 01:49 PM
I found him quite rational and interesting.
I'll be a dissenting voice on the rational part. He had trouble following posts that involved details.

Here (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=15196&postcount=50) is an example he purported to defend his position about cables. I think he never grasped the fact that the two cable contestants were both mid-priced flavors. After calling his hand on alleged "facts", he had to acknowledge that ZERO of his referenced tests used gear anything better than entry level receivers. These posts referenced (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=25334&postcount=47) illustrate. Indeed he was most entertaining. :)

rw

bubbagump
04-21-2009, 03:07 PM
I guess CE's still on the hunt over at Audio Asylum. If you don't remember him, he was sort of Grouch Marx to everyone elses (everyone that took the bait that is) fall guy. After someone reminded me of Audio Asylum, I searched and found a lot of his trheads. It's hilarious how people often respond to his nonsense in fits of rage. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=speakers&m=101021



bubba,

I haven't seen Mtrycraft around here for years. He's likely in the land of the living, though, as saw him on another forum a year or so ago.

Can't say I recall CE, but I might be just forgetting since I've been around here since '02.

RGA
04-21-2009, 10:08 PM
This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.

On the other hand - people are free to make whatever decision they wish to make. My suggestion has always been to have a "sticky" on every page of every forum directing people to a "Why you should do a DBT before you buy." Then I suggested to people like Mrtycrft and PatD and theaudiohobby, and eyespy to get together and write a paper with all the links and tests that have ever been conducted - put in an article and then whenever a newbie comes on the forum you say "read this" and direct them to the link.

A sticky with a similar article for reasons against that have been documented in psychology and biology journals illustrating the deficiencies in such tests can also be posted in a counter sticky. Then the person can be directed to both sides of the debate.

It is not for me to convince you which side of the debate to believe - it is up to YOU to decide based on the articles written.

This way the person can read the arguments and decide for themselves where they want to pitch their tent. For some reason (I was guilty at one time as well) we feel the need to "win" the argument but I have never seen any person on any forum in 11 years change their mind on this topic. And countless threads and countless verbiage has been spent on it usually between the same people making the same case over and over again.

Once you've told the newbie about the DBT what it does why you should use it - then be done with it - you made the point and now it's caveat emptor. Spend the rest of your time going after the drug industry where lives are on the line rather than saving some rich kid who is looking at spending $4000 on a meter of cable. Frankly - if this kid gets screwed and the cable is no different - how did you really help the world? If you got $4k to spend on a meter of wire then you have no "real" problems, when it comes to money anyway.

markw
04-22-2009, 04:13 AM
They rely very, very heavily on DBT's in their evaluations. But, to mention them for audio applications, particularly here, here is an anathema

StevenSurprenant
04-22-2009, 05:41 AM
Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.

Feanor
04-22-2009, 05:59 AM
This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.

...

Yes, it's my clear recollection that many people bailed from AR forums when the then moderators announce a stricter policy that included banning, (deleting), certain controversial topics.

I don't recall that it was only DBT but I was never aware of a specific list of topics or behaviors that were to be banned. In any case a number of people left including Mtrycrafts. The place has never really recovered.

Feanor
04-22-2009, 06:16 AM
Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.

Mtrycrafts was as vociferous as he was dogmatic although personally he didn't bother me that much. But if, as you imply, people lelt stifled because of him, then it would clearly have better to have banned him rather than controversial discussion. But it was the latter that was done with the consequence that we lost not only "Marty" but also a lot of other people too.

I brings to mind an individual at another forum, clarkjohnsen, who got himself banned for slanderous insinuation or some such pretext, but ultimately for arrogant contempt for other members. 80% of his posts were snide, no-text one liners.

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 06:48 AM
This forum banned discussion of DBT's and as such the forum has never been the same since. You have to weigh the irritating endless DBT discussions versus a ghost town forum that this forum has since become.
That is not true. Like AA, such discussions were encouraged - but in the Audio Lab.

rw

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 06:53 AM
They rely very, very heavily on DBT's in their evaluations.
Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

rw

GMichael
04-22-2009, 07:05 AM
Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt. When it came to wires, he took a stance and never deviated from it. He would repeat his position over and over and over and would not engage in any discussion outside the scope of his beliefs. He was closed minded beyond reason.

Still, everything he said was reasonable and made sense, but if anything was mentioned that didn't fit into his rational logic, he would simply blow it off and go on his tirade about DBT's.

My only real complaint was that if there was a discussion about wires he would hijack the thread and harass until people just quit the discussion.

Well anyway, I really don't miss him. Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.

Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments. His world was black and white and there was no room for any ideas that didn't fit his beliefs. It was his way or the highway. He had no respect for any opinion other than his own. As for myself, for a long time I quit posting here because of him. I really didn't feel like getting into a fight every time I said anything. It wouldn't surprise me if others left the board for the same reason. He did more harm than good.

As for this forum, it has quieted down a great deal over the years. From time to time, some of the best discussions I have read have come from members of this board, but for the most part, the discussion here is is rather benign. No offense guys, but when I am researching I rarely spend much time on this site. However, I love audioreview. It is a great place for lighter and less focused conversation.


Guilty as charged.:sad:

markw
04-22-2009, 07:09 AM
Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

rwSince when are the subjects of drug tests DBT's trained? They are just yer average people off the street chosen to meet certain demographics. They simpy take the drugs, report any symptoms/perceptions and subject themselves to some medical testing to prove the results.

If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.

Again, if one is going to charge much, much greater for their product, or make grandiose claims about their product's superiority, over another companys product of the same functionality, one would assume that proven superiority would be an advantage.

but, for some reason, it never happens and, at least here, you can't even mention it here.

...and people wonder why this site became a virtual shadow of what it once was.

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 07:22 AM
Yet, there is a critical difference: participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials.

rw
Actually, they do in medical trials often too. :)

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 07:25 AM
but, for some reason, it never happens and, at least here, you can't even mention it here.

...and people wonder why this site became a virtual shadow of what it once was.
After about 10 months under the regime that lead to the exodus, these conversations creeped back in here.

You'll find the rules aren't enforced much differently than they were pre-purge now.

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 07:32 AM
.

If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.

I guess if you have to exert tremendous effort to hear a difference, or convince yourself you hear something, it validates some of these claims.

I have become a better critical listener over the years from my speaker building hobby and from listening to more music with better gear. If anything I feel this has helped me see past a lot of the snake oil and be a better judge of value in perceived benefits.

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 07:42 AM
Since when are the subjects of drug tests DBT's trained? They are just yer average people off the street chosen to meet certain demographics. They simpy take the drugs, report any symptoms/perceptions and subject themselves to some medical testing to prove the results.
I seem to have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly for you. Your comments detail the point I am trying to make. Training and experience can, however, effect the results of audio tests.


If audiable differences between products under discussion are as significant as claimed, training is not needed. Just listen and report.
It depends upon what you are trying to prove. If you are doing broad testing for a general audience, then training and familiarity aren't required. The kind Bose would do. If, however, you are trying to determine what differences truly exist, then I submit you need trained participants. Like using professional drivers on a test track to ascertain the true ability of a car's performance envelope. Not your grandmother. My ability to discern fine differences is greatly enhanced when I use familiar material on a familiar system. The fact that any one individual cannot tell a difference between component A and component B does not mean differences do not exist.

rw

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 07:49 AM
Actually, they do in medical trials often too. :)
Please explain. How does "experience" affect the outcome of a drug trial? The pharmaceutical tests my wife (who is a PharmD) tells me about do not support that notion.

rw

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 09:09 AM
Please explain. How does "experience" affect the outcome of a drug trial? The pharmaceutical tests my wife (who is a PharmD) tells me about do not support that notion.

rw
Experience by patients developing tolernace to drugs over time, familiarity with administration techniques of other drugs (think inhalers and such for asthma), etc...just to name a few.

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 09:18 AM
Experience by patients developing tolernace to drugs over time
That's not a developed skill. It is an unavoidable consequence of the medication. I refer to training in the sense of being able to control the outcome, not be passively affected by it.


... familiarity with administration techniques of other drugs (think inhalers and such for asthma), etc...just to name a few.
Here again, such does not refer to the ability of one to alter the outcome beyond the very basic notion of proper delivery. Once a given amount of medication is given to a participant, can you think of any way someone could "learn" to make the results more effective?

rw

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 09:46 AM
That's not a developed skill. It is an unavoidable consequence of the medication. I refer to training in the sense of being able to control the outcome, not be passively affected by it. Experience isn't limited to "developed skills".

Here again, such does not refer to the ability of one to alter the outcome beyond the very basic notion of proper delivery. Once a given amount of medication is given to a participant, can you think of any way someone could "learn" to make the results more effective?

I guess if you restrict the definitions of "experience" and "training" to the narrow meanings you've responded with, and limit medical trials to drugs only, and then limit those drug trials to a chemical function of merely dosage quantity and corresponding result alone in cases where the drug's therapeutic effects can be measured objectively, then I would agree with you. Unfortuantely that would exclude a great deal of medical trials and your original post was nowhere near this detailed.

In my job I spend considerable time reviewing the results of a lot of drug and medical equipment studies by some of companies we hold in our portfolio. Believe me, patient experience and training are some of the most common reasons for misleading and misinterpreted test results in medical trials and more than a few companies and investors have lost boat loads of research money because they failed to compensate or anticipate such variables.

And, much like audio, many drug and medical trials rely heavily on subjectivity to evaluate results. (ie, degree of pain relief), so yeah, I do believe there is room for "learned" results as well.

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 10:16 AM
I guess if you restrict the definitions of "experience" and "training" to the narrow meanings you've responded with...
My point is that drug efficacy beyond proper dosing is not something one learns how to "improve".


, and limit medical trials to drugs only
I responded to your examples. Broaden the scope however you please that involves the ability of the participant's experience and training to deliberately affect the results.


And, much like audio, many drug and medical trials rely heavily on subjectivity to evaluate results. (ie, degree of pain relief), so yeah, I do believe there is room for "learned" results as well.
Fair enough. While there are always some false positives under placebo, such evaluations are not used to suggest that the participants are not experiencing that which they report. They are used to gauge efficacy especially when many tests employ objective measurements. Audio DBTs simply report the null result.

rw

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 10:59 AM
My point is that drug efficacy beyond proper dosing is not something one learns how to "improve".
I'd agree with that. My apologies for the confusion, but you'll have to admit this is a much different and more accurate statement than the broad "participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials."

Just to play devil's advocate, to relate this to audio, it's not "drug efficacy" itself that we learn to improve, but we can improve our ability to recognize therapeutic effects (i.e. ask your wife about examples of studies, or perhaps patients she knows that claimed no effect from therapy, only to notice symptoms returned when dosage stopped). In audio, it's not the actual physical properties of the sound we improve, it's our ability to recognize it...not quite apples to apples, but not that different either. In both cases our developed senses are responsible for improved results.


I responded to your examples. Broaden the scope however you please that involves the ability of the participant's experience and training to deliberately affect the results.
I didn't broaden the scope, you narrowed it after I provided valid examples where subject experience and training can effect results in medical trials. If experience and learned ability to use senses (ie, hearing) can be included on the one hand, then the experience with or ability to use a medical apparatus, or ability to notice therapeutic results (because of better trained senses) must be fair game as well.

E-Stat
04-22-2009, 11:33 AM
... but you'll have to admit this is a much different and more accurate statement than the broad "participant training and experience do not affect the results with medical trials."
You didn't know what I was thinking? :)


...but we can improve our ability to recognize therapeutic effects (i.e. ask your wife about examples of studies, or perhaps patients she knows that claimed no effect from therapy, only to notice symptoms returned when dosage stopped).
I'm confused by this example. They begin with symptoms before the trials, then later under medication, report the symptoms are still there and finally - the symptoms "returned"? How did they return if they never left?


...then the experience with or ability to use a medical apparatus, or ability to notice therapeutic results (because of better trained senses) must be fair game as well.
The difference is in degrees. My presumption is that the training how to properly use a medical apparatus takes - what minutes? hours? a day? Do many medical trials require complex procedures that skew the results? Training your "mental memory" as Siggy Linkwitz calls it for audio, on the other hand, can take years. Trained listeners spend far more time refining their skills then patients figuring out how take a medication or use an apparatus. I am aware of patient compliance issues where some claim they took medication - when in fact they never did. But that's a different topic...

rw

kexodusc
04-22-2009, 01:10 PM
I'm confused by this example. They begin with symptoms before the trials, then later under medication, report the symptoms are still there and finally - the symptoms "returned"? How did they return if they never left?
Me too, typed it in a hurry...Forget trials for a second. I was thinking more about the purpose behind the trials - some real life. Audio DBT's test for some difference or no difference. Medical trials can be similar - patients can often report (I've read it more with anti-depressants and pain-killers) no benefits from the drug...but when they stop the drug they realize that their symptoms were alleviate a bit by the drug after all. Just not completely and they didn't realize by what minor amount until they went cold turkey again. It's not unlike the audio world where we spend great efforts to get subtle audio improvements that to the untrained novice ear might go unnoticed at first. Doesn't mean there wasn't some benefit or improvement. Only that we weren't keen enough to notice.


The difference is in degrees. My presumption is that the training how to properly use a medical apparatus takes - what minutes? hours? a day? Do many medical trials require complex procedures that skew the results?
Training your "mental memory" as Siggy Linkwitz calls it for audio, on the other hand, can take years. Trained listeners spend far more time refining their skills then patients figuring out how take a medication or use an apparatus. I am aware of patient compliance issues where some claim they took medication - when in fact they never did. But that's a different topic...
Fair points too...all this to say DBT's aren't the end all, be all in any discipline.

GMichael
04-22-2009, 01:23 PM
Me too, typed it in a hurry...Forget trials for a second. I was thinking more about the purpose behind the trials - some real life. Audio DBT's test for some difference or no difference. Medical trials can be similar - patients can often report (I've read it more with anti-depressants and pain-killers) no benefits from the drug...but when they stop the drug they realize that their symptoms were alleviate a bit by the drug after all. Just not completely and they didn't realize by what minor amount until they went cold turkey again. It's not unlike the audio world where we spend great efforts to get subtle audio improvements that to the untrained novice ear might go unnoticed at first. Doesn't mean there wasn't some benefit or improvement. Only that we weren't keen enough to notice..

Kind of like having a well calibrated sub? You don't notice when it comes on, but you do when it's turned off.

RGA
04-22-2009, 04:28 PM
They rely very, very heavily on DBT's in their evaluations. But, to mention them for audio applications, particularly here, here is an anathema

Yes and you still get Viox, Lipitor, and piles of other drugs that kill people. Mounting drug test style DBTs unchanged for Psychological tests is problematic - at least in terms of drawing a conclusion. With drugs it either works or it doesn't - there is no subjective Q&A or "interpretation" made by the brain.

RGA
04-22-2009, 04:37 PM
That is not true. Like AA, such discussions were encouraged - but in the Audio Lab.

rw

Yes it was moved to a separate section but those guys left because it was banned in the other forums - namely the cable forum. Either way this forum lost a large number of continual posters and a lot of back and forth discussion - I can go several days here without anyone posting anything in the amp or source forum.

Although it also served to get rid of the "rain on my parade" kind of things those guys pulled. If Person A has read and understood the pro DBT stance and chooses to buy his pricey cable it is not necessary to have some putz come in and tell him yet again the same arguments in a snide way. All those years and the cable gurus argued and read all those mrtycrft posts and I bet ZERO ever changed their minds.

markw
04-22-2009, 04:59 PM
Yes and you still get Viox, Lipitor, and piles of other drugs that kill people. Mounting drug test style DBTs unchanged for Psychological tests is problematic - at least in terms of drawing a conclusion. With drugs it either works or it doesn't - there is no subjective Q&A or "interpretation" made by the brain.Nothing is 100%. You knew that to begin with, didn't you?

Odds are that some small percentage of people may going to have an adverse reaction to some drug. A small percentage of people react to peanuts, shellfish and everything else.

The difference is that a great many people do benefit from the positive resuts of the products tested. Assuming the same testing is done, can the same be said for cables?

RGA
04-22-2009, 05:11 PM
The main point about a DBT is justifiably to get rid of sight bias and volume level bias. I think most people would agree that you don't want to be tricked into believing something is better because it looks better or is heavier or comes from a name brand you like more than another name brand. And you don't want to be tricked by the munson effect into believing that the louder unit is better. That does not really require a DBT though. Hi-Fi Choice gets rid of both of those biases and does not introduce stress test environments. It serves the goal of eliminating volume and sight bias for this task. And they have interesting results - often with industry people in the listening sessions.

And the DBT traditional that people like like to use low trials 10 or 16 and draw early conclusions to support, presumably, what they want it to support. A score of 9/10 is needed to be deemed selecting A or B better than chance to a statistical significance that meets the .05 level. They are quick to point out that if you get less than 9/10 then you merely guessed and that you can't distinguish A from B.

What they don't tell you, because they're engineers not psychologists, is that high trials are ALWAYS required for this kind of testing. They modeled their tests on medical trials not psychological trials and this fundamental error is either due to laziness or plain ignorance. A score of 6/10 ten times with one miss for a total score of 59/100 meets significance to the .05 level as well but reduces both type I and type II errors.

Logic - if you have high numbers of trials you can be more sure that your results paint a clearer picture and that you gave the listener every opportunity. 59/100 means you differentiated difference every bit as capably as the guy who scored 9/10. But wait the lazy ignorant group of testers would laugh you out of the room with a 6/10 score.

That is the thing that bothers me most of all. It's one thing to disagree about the value or "validity" of the DBT but at least pitch your tent on good high trial DBT's with one listener. Even the oakland university site that always gets posted is hugely faulty. They take ten people and ADD their scores together. So if I go 9/10 and you got 1/10 then the score is 10/20 and they think they proved that no one heard a difference. You don't add people's scores together??

Feanor
04-23-2009, 02:15 AM
Yes and you still get Viox, Lipitor, and piles of other drugs that kill people. Mounting drug test style DBTs unchanged for Psychological tests is problematic - at least in terms of drawing a conclusion. With drugs it either works or it doesn't - there is no subjective Q&A or "interpretation" made by the brain.

Vioxx almost killed my mother, in her eighties, when it caused an extreme blood preasure spike.

On the other hand, I've been taking Lipitor for 7-8 years with no sign of adverse effects.

kexodusc
04-23-2009, 04:43 AM
With drugs it either works or it doesn't - there is no subjective Q&A or "interpretation" made by the brain.
Horse poop...much like the snake-oil in the alternative medicine industry (not all is snake-oil but there's a lot out there), a lot of patients will swear by drug x, or the degree to which it works. There's is ample subjective interpretation of therapeutic benefits of drugs. Designers of brand name drugs prey on this subjectivity to keep people from buying chemically identical generics with proven equal efficacy.

Yes, at the biochemical level the drug either reacts or doesn't, but interpreation of the results vary tremendously.

Worf101
04-23-2009, 05:50 AM
Krikey, there was a war, a purge and an exodus and I missed it? Man oh man I've got to pay more attention. There is a delicate balance all moderators and sites have to walk between permitting free expression and allowing the inmates to take over the asylum. I've left several sites because the "laissais faire" attitude of the mods allowed the children to run rampant in an almost "Lord of the Flies" manner. The internet in some ways lures, promotes and enables bullies because there are no consequences other than banning and that's often ineffectual.

While I miss some of the old guard I firmly believe that sites wax and wane like all things and AA still gets it's fair share of hits. I can accept any opinion as long as it's an "informed" opinion.

Da Worfster

Hyfi
04-23-2009, 09:47 AM
They livened up the forum. CE with his Legacy Foci (one in one room, the other in another) and Mtrycraft's line of reason vs the audiophile insane clown posse?

I don't quite remember CE but when I first joined Audioreview, I spent close to 2 years sparring with Mtrycraft along with the posse. It did seem amazing that he based all of his stance on white papers and listening to what in todays world of Audio would be a Transistor Radio tuned into AM.

I took a good beating from time to time but the Cable forum was kinda fun back then. I did make several friends here from that time before I switched to posting in the music forum.

I am now using Synergistic Research cables and would love for him to hear the difference between them and my old Tara Labs wires.

Pat D
04-24-2009, 07:27 AM
That is not true. Like AA, such discussions were encouraged - but in the Audio Lab.

rw

Oh yeah, go and segregate the scientific discussions to a ghetto. The place to have many of them is on the forums ask questions about what makes a difference to the sound--and we have no good evidence that changing interconnects makes an audible difference, except for phono cables (some phono cartridges are sensitive to capacitance), or speaker cables in high fidelity configurations (not too long, not too small a gauge).

I refused to participate in discussions in The Audio Lab ghetto (I'm not the only, and John Escallier told me the same thing), and since the policy was not to engage in audibility discussions in other forums, my participation at Audio Review diminished considerably. I see little reason to increase it now.

Mtrycrafts, as you have noted, is very active over at Audioholics, where they appreciate his knowledge.

E-Stat
04-24-2009, 07:45 AM
Oh yeah, go and segregate the scientific discussions to a ghetto.
You certainly spend a lot of time in the "ghetto" over at AA. About fifty posts in the past couple of days. Hmmm. Apparently there's a difference to you.


... where they appreciate his knowledge.
If not his utter lack of experience. He is, however, quick to the draw with dated bibliographies of limited scope! Just for grins, do a search over there on any number of the highest performance components. Zero results. :)

rw

Pat D
04-24-2009, 09:25 AM
You certainly spend a lot of time in the "ghetto" over at AA. About fifty posts in the past couple of days. Hmmm. Apparently there's a difference to you.


If not his utter lack of experience. He is, however, quick to the draw with dated bibliographies of limited scope! Just for grins, do a search over there on any number of the highest performance components. Zero results. :)

rw

I have posted in several forums at AA recently. Do your research. The only audio ghetto at AA I know of is Cable Asylum. One can discuss audibility on their other audio forums.

What are "the highest performance components"? The ones approved by your beloved TAS, or Stereophile, UHF, and so on?

E-Stat
04-24-2009, 11:56 AM
The only audio ghetto at AA I know of is Cable Asylum. One can discuss audibility on their other audio forums.
My mistake. I thought you were referring to The Audio Lab here which is the equivalent of Prop Head.


What are "the highest performance components"? The ones approved by your beloved TAS, or Stereophile, UHF, and so on?
Heavens, no! It is Mtry's experience-free world where one merely quotes what they've read. :) My approach is very different using direct exposure to a wide range of gear over the past 35 years to guide me. My four systems (five if you count the iPhone/Shure earbud portable) represent a diverse range between mid-fi and high end.

rw

RGA
04-24-2009, 07:30 PM
Horse poop...much like the snake-oil in the alternative medicine industry (not all is snake-oil but there's a lot out there), a lot of patients will swear by drug x, or the degree to which it works. There's is ample subjective interpretation of therapeutic benefits of drugs. Designers of brand name drugs prey on this subjectivity to keep people from buying chemically identical generics with proven equal efficacy.

Yes, at the biochemical level the drug either reacts or doesn't, but interpreation of the results vary tremendously.

Point well taken - I suppose what i was referring to were the drugs that work 100% of the time or very nearly so - you know the knock out solutions before you have surgery. Drugs like morphine.

But mixing medicine for profit and science together yields a result in favour of profit. It's no longer real science - it is "let's make a product and use science to back up what we want to profit on." And even if that smacks as conspiracy theory stuff - it still IS a conflict of interest when the drug seller is also doing the science. When in doubt let's choose the profit. Get big and squash anything that wasn't conducted in a DBT.

They sell pills for things that no pill is necessary for. High Cholesterol - yup they want everyone on a lower cholesterol drug - once you take it you need to stay on it for LIFE and numerous studies outside the U.S. have questioned the validity that high cholesterol in itself is a problem at all. Lipitor has liver killing side effects - so you trade a possible heart attack in for live failure. When if you want to lower cholesterol you can do it through diet and exercise. And if you don't have a good diet and exercise Lipitor isn't going to save you anyway.

So here we have people believing without evidence that High Cholesterol will kill you when it won't and a drug to save you from something that won't kill you which itself may give you serious long term health problems in which you will need piles more drugs to combat - all the while they profited on the liver damaging lipitor. But hey they made their money and owning a Benz is more important than your life. If you want to know where the sociopaths live and work - the drug industry is a good place to start.

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/022960.html

Not that these will matter since most people seem to only view science from their own countries.

kexodusc
04-25-2009, 01:44 AM
Point well taken - I suppose what i was referring to were the drugs that work 100% of the time or very nearly so - you know the knock out solutions before you have surgery. Drugs like morphine.

But mixing medicine for profit and science together yields a result in favour of profit. It's no longer real science - it is "let's make a product and use science to back up what we want to profit on." And even if that smacks as conspiracy theory stuff - it still IS a conflict of interest when the drug seller is also doing the science.

No argument from me. If you were to talk to some of the r&d people in any of the big drug companies you wouldn't meet many unprincipled, for-profit-at-all-costs scientists. But supervising them at some point is a guy who did his undergrad in biochem before doing an MBA and he knows enough to be dangerous and trigger his company's performance-based bonus clauses. I do believe for the most part things are done right, but when your competitor is 2 years ahead of you on the next prozac or viagra corners get cut.
Part of the problem too is we know so little about the human body. A lot of these side-effects, like the bad liver take years of treatment, occur in only a segment of subjects, the test subjects don't notice the side-effect and it's just not tested for because nobody ever predicted it. No malicious intent, but devastating consequences all the same.
But yeah, when there's evidence, it's reported and a company chooses to ignore it so the product remain on schedule...bad.

RGA
04-25-2009, 05:04 AM
John Lecarre worked in the drug industry - the movie The Constant Gardner is not far from the truth - most normal folks can't imagine people would put profits ahead of people to the degree they do but history provides examples - so many in fact - where companies making profit should NOT be anywhere near a science lab that involves people's lives. Ford - yeah they chose to battle lawsuits because they figure it would be cheaper than a recall - and the punishment over the Pinto - a forced recall and a fine? The board of directors killed more people than all the serial killers in the States combined in the history of the country - yet a serial killer gets the death penalty and Lee Iacocca gets a golden parachute and is allowed to live out a life of wealth.

Ford before that supplied money to the Nazi's during WWII to help speed up the holocaust. And what do you know the German Ford Plants were never hit in any attack during the war. Now that's impressive accuracy - not even Bush's smart bombs were that smart. And we won't mention their Mustang death traps of the 60's.

And audio - well it's not deadly but big corporations are money first - and is it the science leading the progress of technology or following the marketing and profit program. I enjoy reading the Harman papers but the product is well worse than some guys seemingly building kits in their basement - so I wonder.

Pat D
04-26-2009, 02:18 PM
My mistake. I thought you were referring to The Audio Lab here which is the equivalent of Prop Head.


Heavens, no! It is Mtry's experience-free world where one merely quotes what they've read. :) My approach is very different using direct exposure to a wide range of gear over the past 35 years to guide me. My four systems (five if you count the iPhone/Shure earbud portable) represent a diverse range between mid-fi and high end.

rw

The reason Audio Lab was a ghetto is that technical discussions, especially audibility discussions, were discouraged on the other forums here. The place to discuss technical issues is where relevant questions are most likely to come up, which is on the other forums. Otherwise, many questions cannot be properly answered.

Prop Head is not a ghetto as one can deal with technical and audibility discussions on other forums at AA, but audibility discussions are prohibited only on Cable Asylum.

You don't know mtrycrafts at all.

E-Stat
04-26-2009, 02:38 PM
You don't know mtrycrafts at all.
Sure I do. He was the self professed resident ditch digger.

rw

JoeE SP9
04-26-2009, 03:10 PM
Sure I do. He was the self professed resident ditch digger.

rw

He wouldn't believe he dug a ditch unless he was standing in it. Even then he would be skeptical. I too remember mtrycrafts. He has achieved some measure of Guruism at Audiholics.

hifitommy
05-01-2009, 08:56 PM
mtry (i called him empty) and the more reasonable EYESPY. there were a few of these disciples of mtry who gathered at the entrance to to forum and nipped at the heels and ankles of anybody who said wire sounds different or DBT (i called them BTs4Ds-blind tests for dummies) was inappropriate.

oh, it was entertaining but posters that came for enlightenment were driven away by the arfing puppies. arf, arf, arf!, and i MEAN it. thats why i continued the resistance so neophytes could pose reasonable questions and expect reasonable answers.

i could go to audioholics and engage the fray again but thats not what i have in mind to do. i enjoy sharing the experience and knowledge and also LEARNING from other's experience and knowledge.

yes, i think this forum is greatly enhanced by the new rules imposed by the moderators who changed it all. thankew vurry much!

Pat D
05-02-2009, 02:43 PM
He wouldn't believe he dug a ditch unless he was standing in it. Even then he would be skeptical. I too remember mtrycrafts. He has achieved some measure of Guruism at Audiholics.

I can assure both of you that mtry is not a ditch digger.

hifitommy
05-02-2009, 03:17 PM
pits he couldnt talk his way out of. bright but misdirected.

E-Stat
05-02-2009, 04:29 PM
I can assure both of you that mtry is not a ditch digger.
Get a grip, READ his comments, DON'T speculate.

You know, you would not look so foolish and make stupid statements if you read those posts, for a change.

But, the day you bring some evidence to the table to discuss who he is, please be sure to do so so we can discuss it, OK?

rw

ps: with a lot of help from you-know-who :)

Pat D
05-02-2009, 06:53 PM
Get a grip, READ his comments, DON'T speculate.

You know, you would not look so foolish and make stupid statements if you read those posts, for a change.

But, the day you bring some evidence to the table to discuss who he is, please be sure to do so so we can discuss it, OK?

rw

ps: with a lot of help from you-know-who :)

I know mtrycrafts personally and have visited him and his family in his home.

E-Stat
05-03-2009, 06:38 AM
I know mtrycrafts personally and have visited him and his family in his home.
Ok. So how does his JVC boombox sound? Does he really talk in choppy fragmented sentences like he writes?

rw

Mingus
05-07-2009, 08:41 AM
Mtrycraft, isn't he the cable expert everybody relies on.

hifitommy
05-07-2009, 05:33 PM
that IS the kind of cable you mean, right?

Brett A
05-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Mtrycrafts was a pain in the butt.
He was closed minded beyond reason.
Once the discussion went beyond DBT's and wire tests using electronic test equipment, he had nothing to offer. His mind seemed to go blank.
Yes, he would liven up the conversation, but he did this by criticizing the posts of other members of this board and starting arguments.
He had no respect for any opinion other than his own.

Audioholics was the first forum I joined when I started to get back into my 2 channel hobby. I don't go back there that often, largely because of Mtrycrafts and others like him that dominate that forum. (Also, I realized it's an A/V forum and not so much an audio forum as its name implies)
All these characteristics you describe, I have experienced from him and others with similar closed and hateful views. He is still going strong over at AH. That is why I'm not there too much. No point. :nonod:

3-LockBox
05-12-2009, 12:18 PM
I remember ol' mrtycrafts. CE I think posted under two or three monikers at once...wasn't he Ben Dover (I'm not making it up). There was another guy who tagteamed with mrty from time to time - he had those big assed Legacy Whispers...I was TA for a while back then, until an imposter took it over. I been 3LB ever since.

Anyhoo, I'd say I half agreed with mrty half the time, but I did have some buddies in the audio world whom I respected tell me there was a difference twix cables, but I'd never hear those differences on mainstream midfi equipment. Suits me fine. So for me, the differences in cables are superfilous - if they're there, I can't hear 'em and I'm not going to ever invest that kinda jack into equipment that's persnickety and sensative enough to be affected by signal cables of all things. I'd rather listen to music than equipment. Too audiophiliacs like to show off their equipment by playing snippets of music, but I wonder if they actually enjoy music since they're constantly tweaking and whatnot. I just got to the point where I wanted to listen to music and not get caught in the never-ending equipment upgrade cycle. I'd rather invest in new music.

hifitommy
05-12-2009, 03:48 PM
who built on our equipment over time and ended up with high end stuff, used perhaps, but high end. the cleaner you get the lens, the better picture you can see. go from vivitar to canon lenses and you will see immediately what i mean.

with a window, go to good plate glass and get it exquisitely clean, and what you see from it is VERY detailed, like no glass at all. the same goes for audio equipment. even the seemingly lowly (but not) nad 3020!

when the electronics are clean, the cables will show themselves much more. the differences are subtle but many times distinct.

this is where mtry failed to comprehend why we can hear those differences, among other things.

i have amassed WAY too many recordings for most people but not for me. my true investment is in the music. about 6k LPs, a few k of CDs, about 100 sacds, open reel tapes and cassettes are there too. lest we forget radio, i have a sangean hd tuner that took the place of my fisher rack system fm tuners.

live music is in the mix as well, i live here in LA where great musicians can be seen nearly at will.

so mtry is a bit misguided but might come around if he relaxed a bit.

drseid
05-13-2009, 05:40 AM
I remember ol' mrtycrafts. CE I think posted under two or three monikers at once...wasn't he Ben Dover (I'm not making it up). There was another guy who tagteamed with mrty from time to time - he had those big assed Legacy Whispers...I was TA for a while back then, until an imposter took it over. I been 3LB ever since.



Yes, Ben Dover... that indeed was CE... I remember that one too. I think the guy with the Legacy Whispers was EyeSpy but I could be wrong.

---Dave

jinjuku
05-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I seem to have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly for you. Your comments detail the point I am trying to make. Training and experience can, however, effect the results of audio tests.


In what way?

Training and experience across 'unknown' A/B/C/D comparative sets is still blind. I think the only thing it may help with is a follow the ball if some component alters the sound and is tractable through any of the sequences that you are subjected to.

3-LockBox
05-13-2009, 11:42 AM
I think the guy with the Legacy Whispers was EyeSpy but I could be wrong.

That rings a bell.

I never had a problem with Mrtycarft personally, since I was never into esoteric audio tweaks or equipment. I don't have the personal experience or conviction to say what others hear, but I'm a practical sort that sez I like DBTs. If the differences twix two pieces of equipment weren't obviously apparent to me, I didn't care what others heard. Besides, if it weren't for blind testing, I wouldn't win DIY speaker contests where only sound is considered.

But he did have a curious way of writing and communicating; very terse and wouldn't participate in a one-on-one conversation (albeit in a public forum), he always seemed to talk at you, and not to you. I admit he came across as a little stuck up, but no more than those who told me I wasn't going to hear any differences twix isolation cones on the crappy equipment I owned.

As TA, I know I pissed off my share of posters wanting to know which shade green marker was best for edge marking CDs, and when to apply the green marker, before or after you freeze yer CDs, or deguass them, or whatever.:lol:

hifitommy
05-13-2009, 12:29 PM
is what is took to HEAR the difference. scoff if you like, it DOES work. its not worth the effort to green all your CDs though. now if the makers did it as part of the manufacturing process, it would have been great.

and NO, i am not kidding.

markw
05-13-2009, 12:46 PM
As TA, I know I pissed off my share of posters wanting to know which shade green marker was best for edge marking CDs, and when to apply the green marker, before or after you freeze yer CDs, or deguass them, or whatever.:lol:This just keeps getting better and better...