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Kevio
04-16-2009, 01:37 PM
Except for the fact that they're not shy about using EQ, it has always seemed to me that mastering engineers are the ultimate audiophiles. They spend all day listening to music through high-end systems and tweak at things until perfection is achieved.

These professionals are the last stop in the production chain and probably have a bigger impact on your listening experience than your reproduction equipment.

I've recently had the opportunity to try my hand at mastering for a friend's recording project. Tweaking out a recording has been quite fun and satisfying.

PM me if you'd like to hear a before and after and give me feedback on this project.

Worf101
04-17-2009, 04:27 AM
Were in the process of final mixdown on our second album even as we speak. It's a whole nother story for us as our first album was recorded in DAT's and Super 8's and this one's all pro-tools. The same guy will digitally master this one as last. You're right about the importance of Mastering BUT, with the programs and tool s available today if you get it wrong even at that late date, it's no biggie to remaster a tune or two. Just avoid large magnets.

Da Worfster

E-Stat
04-17-2009, 07:46 AM
Except for the fact that they're not shy about using EQ, it has always seemed to me that mastering engineers are the ultimate audiophiles.
Some certainly are. I had the distinct pleasure of participating in a Telarc recording of The Firebird in Atlanta years ago. These guys were quite serious in delivering a largely un-doctored and very natural sounding product. Another label that I respect highly is Windham Hills with many recordings that were done with minimal miking, EQ, compression, etc. The real challenge is setting up the recording process up front such that it requires little "fixing" at the back end. They know what music really sounds like. :)

rw

Auricauricle
04-17-2009, 08:12 AM
No big d-uh, here, but I think this is one of the places where this hobby really takes off.

Seems to me that while there are a few recording engineers of true intent strive to produce recordings that are faithful to the source, there are many "engineers" who are simply content to press the "record" button on when the music starts, check the sat levels, and press the "stop" buttton when the music stops.

Thus exists the schism between "purists" who put a lot of faith in the fidelity of a great recording and will touch nary a knob and the "rest of us' who know that our tastes are idiosyncratic and would like to make a few adjustments now and then.

Feanor
04-17-2009, 09:31 AM
According to some pundits, DGG's sound when south in the late 60's & '70 when they famously recorded with dozens of microphones place in close proximity to the performers. Of course, elaborate mix-downs were necessary. This was in utter contrast to the mimimalist Mercury Living Presence approach that used only three microphones place in forward-row concert hall positions.

DGG's results, IMO and that of many others, is the their recordings lack any of the life of real, concert hall experiences.

DGG's answer? More processing!! Many recordings were remastered (for CD) in the 90's using "Original bit processing". Using the original, multi-track recordings remixed everything, in many cases adding time delays on various tracks to simulate an genuine concert hall perspective. The result, well, a of people considered the results an improvement over the originals. For my part the sound was still not very convincing.

SACD occassion yet another round of mastering, which though better still, still leave something to be desired.

E-Stat
04-17-2009, 10:35 AM
DGG's results, IMO and that of many others, is the their recordings lack any of the life of real, concert hall experiences.
Mine, too. Remember skeptic/Soundmind? DG was his favorite label!

Skep on DG (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=21008&postcount=83)


DGG's answer? More processing!!
Yeah, that'll work!

rw

Auricauricle
04-17-2009, 11:13 AM
You guys are talking about Deutsche Grammophon? Well...yeah. I was so excited when I bought their Planets CD (1981, 400 028-2) I was completely let down by the flatness of the recording. Still, that doesn't detract from other recordings in that era that were really good, like the Beethoven Symphonie Nr.s 5 and 7 as directed by Kleiber (1975, 447 400-2).

So, my question is, who fouled it all up? Karajan, surely, didn't abide by this crap, did he?

E-Stat
04-17-2009, 11:44 AM
So, my question is, who fouled it all up? Karajan, surely, didn't abide by this crap, did he?
Who? Recording engineers who either didn't know better or weren't allowed the time to properly set up the microphones. Musicians and conductors are frequently bad judges of recording quality and audio systems since they "fill in" missing information from memory. Robert Shaw, for example, had a very basic audio system. I have a friend who is most certainly an exception to this rule.

rw

Feanor
04-17-2009, 11:55 AM
... This was in utter contrast to the mimimalist Mercury Living Presence approach that used only three microphones place in forward-row concert hall positions.
...

By the way, some people still consider the MLP sound to be some sort of ideal, at least for vinyl. I have no MLP LPs, but I have a few CDs but unfortunately not SACDs.

The CDs were remasters but I will say they have a much more natural abience that DGG CDs including the "Original Bit Procesing" ones. Nevertheless they aren't ideal IMO. I find them a bit bright and the perspective a little to close to the orchestra for my liking.

Opinions differ in that regard, i.e. how close-in to the performers the recording should sound. Some people like to be sitting in the midst of the performers; others like me prefer 10th row orchestra.

Feanor
04-17-2009, 12:04 PM
You guys are talking about Deutsche Grammophon? Well...yeah. I was so excited when I bought their Planets CD (1981, 400 028-2) I was completely let down by the flatness of the recording. Still, that doesn't detract from other recordings in that era that were really good, like the Beethoven Symphonie Nr.s 5 and 7 as directed by Kleiber (1975, 447 400-2).

So, my question is, who fouled it all up? Karajan, surely, didn't abide by this crap, did he?

Well, I have an original, 1975 LP of the 5th. Yes, a first issue with metalic highlights on the sleeve. I also have an "Original Bit Processing" CD and the SACD version of the 5th & 7th.

Terrific performance; indifferent sound in all cases, IMO, though the SACD is certainly best. Suck on that vinylphiles: the vinyl sounds least good. (Yeah, whatever, my vinyl rig is crap, yada yada.)

Auricauricle
04-17-2009, 01:02 PM
E: Your comment about conductors' (and musicians') and the engineers who record their performances runs afoul of my (previously held) belief that recording projects are, generally, collaborative projects. For a company DG's prestige to employ minions who know not the first thing about setting up a recording or to abide with an arrangement of performers such that their performance is lack-luster is just unconscienable. Guess, I'll just go outside and...and...(Sniff!)...It's just not right, man!

Fean: I guess I got more listening to do....Got any M. Sargent, Everest records in that stack?

E-Stat
04-17-2009, 01:12 PM
E: Your comment about conductors' (and musicians') and the engineers who record their performances runs afoul of my (previously held) belief that recording projects are, generally, collaborative projects.
I was just responding to your comment about Karajan. He's probably happy with a Bose Wave Radio because he hears decades of live performances in his head.

rw

Auricauricle
04-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Rrrrrrrrrr......Du tust mir leid!

Kevio
04-19-2009, 05:27 PM
Seems to me that while there are a few recording engineers of true intent strive to produce recordings that are faithful to the source, there are many "engineers" who are simply content to press the "record" button on when the music starts, check the sat levels, and press the "stop" buttton when the music stops.Either approach can produce a "faithful to the source" result. The rub is usually with the engineer who thinks he can make it sound even better than that.

To be clear, we're talking about acoustic recordings here. The electric stuff is a whole different ball of wax.

Auricauricle
04-19-2009, 05:49 PM
...too much of a "good thing" is always a bad thing....