Turntable Recommendations

[yyz]

HI folks! I'm hoping to get some advice and opinions from forum members about currently available turntables. At the moment, I have an cheap old Technics with an Audio-Technica cartridge/stylus (P-mount). It sounds alright, but I'm thinking about upgrading to something better. I haven't looked for a turntable in over 20 years, so I'm hoping some of you folks can give me some suggestions of what's available. The rest of my system is a Rotel pre-amp, Rotel power amp, Cambridge Audio CD player, Cambridge Audio phono pre-amp, and Paradigm studio series speakers. I'm hoping to keep the price around $500.00, so, I know I am not going to get something that is ultra high-end, but what are some of the top performers in this price range? So far, I've been looking at entry level Pro-ject and Rega. How do these units stack up? Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much in advance.

[Mr Peabody]

I have not compared those two side by side but you are definitely going in the right direction. Either of those would be a nice upgrade from what you have and will have you enjoying your albums all over again. Those would have been my recommendation. I haven't priced Rega's Planar 2 recently but you might see if the dealer will shoot you a deal for that and a decent cartridge. If not the Rega P1 entry level comes with a cartridge and starts around $300.00, same with the entry ProJect.

[yyz]

Thanks Mr. Peabody. Both of these turntables are available from dealers in my area, so I can check out both. The pricing of both the P1 and the Debut III seems to be pretty similar, and they both come with the same cartridge (I think), however, the Pro-ject appears to be better built. Does anyone else have an opinion on either of these units, or anything else I should be considering?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I'm sitting here listening to Genesis "Foxtrot" on my Music Hall MMF2.1LE turntable. It is a very good slightly above entry level turntable in my estimate. It has since been replaced by the MMF2.2LE, but still a great buy. It lists for $499, but can be had for less if you search around online. It is easy to setup, which is a plus considering that there are whole DVD's explaining how to setup a turntable these days. I just purchased some anti-vibration feet for mine and it really tightened up the bass response. Hope this helps, Jack

[yyz]

Thanks for your input Jack, I appreciate it. I have been researching Music Hall as well, but I don't have any dealers in my area that carry the line. Easy setup is important to me, so this may be another option for me to consider.

[02audionoob]

I have a Music Hall MMF-5 with a Goldring GL2200 cartridge and a Pro-Ject Tube Box. I've been very happy with it. I also have a Bellari VP129 tube phono preamp sitting unused, waiting for me to list it for sale...unless I go back to it and sell the Tube Box. The phono preamp is a big part of getting quality sound from your vinyl. Using the phono section from the Rotel preamp might be fine, but there's plenty of room for improvement. I would also recommend getting a decent stylus force gauge. The stylus force dramatically changes the sound, so it's good to be able to measure it accurately.

[yyz]

Thanks for recommending a stylus force guage...I know pretty much nothing about setting up a turntable, so this wouldn't have occured to me. I have a Cambridge Audio phono pre-amp which seems to be fairly decent for my needs.

[RGA]

I have a NAD 533 which is a Rega P2 clone with an upgraded Shure M97 XE cartridge - my advice would either look at the Project - for the same money as the Rega or NAD - I have found the Project players to sound better as stock units - though perhaps with upgrades the NAD/Rega would be better.

I also wouldn't be afraid to buy used - turntables have huge depreciation relative to other audio components and you would be able to get a Systemdek IIX for dirt cheap and it will murder the entry players - they may need a bit of tuning up but this is what I would consider exploring. Audio Note has taken over the rights to SystemDeck so parts would be available unlike a lot of other defunct decks. Plus there is an upgrade route should you like it enough to keep going down the turntable path.

This is one of those under the radar turntables but you're basically getting a slightly stripped down TT1 since it's based on the same platform and the SystemDek's will very likely be UNDER your budget allowing you more money to get a nice cartridge rather than the usually wimpy ones that come with the Rega's/Projects etc. Granted though they don't look as sexy as some though.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/what_hifi_awards_2003_an_tt1.pdf

[yyz]

Well, I went out and auditioned a Pro-ject Debut III and was quite impressed. The sales person was very knowledgable about turntables and took the time to ask about the rest of my system. Based on my needs, and the equipment that I already had, he suggested the Debut III with a Sumiko Oyster cartridge upgrade. He seemed to feel that I would not get a lot of value putting money into a more expensive turntable without upgrading the rest of my system, and I could see his point as my stuff is certainly not up to par with the systems that true vinly lovers have put together. Has anyone tries the Pro-ject/Sumiko combination?

[Mr Peabody]

I have not heard the table but a sales person with knowledge and will give you support after the sale is a valuable thing.

[yyz]

Thanks Mr Peabody, I totally agree. The sales person I was dealing with told me that he would set up the turntable for me and install/set up the cartridge upgrade if I decided to go with it. I also appreciated that he did not try to over-sell me...I don't mind spending a little more money, but if it isn't going to get me noticibly better sound, it doesn't make much sense.

[RGA]

YYZ

One thing to consider though is the long term. If you are buying this and you intend to make no further upgrades to your stereo - that's fine - but if you are then you'll end up with the problem that the turntable won't be as good as the rest of the system.

I disagree with the dealer that the rest of your system won't take advantage of a better turntable - a turntable is different from other sources - they show real very noticeable vast improvements over lower models.

Nothing against the Pro-Jects as they're fine players but I would make sure you do as much research as you can before you let excitement over buying something now cloud your long term plan (if you have a long term plan).

Check out the vinyl forum on www.audioasylum.com

[yyz]

Thanks RGA. I'm not really planning to change anything else about the system...at least not any time soon. I'm in no hurry to make this purchase and I certainly agree that research is important, which is what brought me to this forum. The money is not necessarily limited to this price point (although I would like to keep it under $1000), but I would like to hear an obvious difference in sound quality.

[Mr Peabody]

If you are willing to go that far then you should listen to a Rega P2 or P3. They may not look that snazzy but they do sound good. You can keep under $1k fine with a P2 and nice cart.

[3db]

If you can, stretch your budget and move away from the Rega P1 to a P2 or from a ProJect Debut to an Xpression. The gain in sound quality, quietness, speed stability is so much improved over the entry level stuff. I bought an Xpression II , now replaced by the Xpression III and I'm so glad I did. Its a very good turntable and teh carbon fiber arm that comes with either the Xpression II or III is a very VERY good tone arm

If you can't strecth your budget, then I would choose the Project over the Rega. The P1 was reported to have alot of speed stability problmes and the MDF platters were also repotrted to be "out of round" .

[3db]

Well, I went out and auditioned a Pro-ject Debut III and was quite impressed. The sales person was very knowledgable about turntables and took the time to ask about the rest of my system. Based on my needs, and the equipment that I already had, he suggested the Debut III with a Sumiko Oyster cartridge upgrade. He seemed to feel that I would not get a lot of value putting money into a more expensive turntable without upgrading the rest of my system, and I could see his point as my stuff is certainly not up to par with the systems that true vinly lovers have put together. Has anyone tries the Pro-ject/Sumiko combination?

I totally disagree with your sales person based on your equipement. The next level up from either ProJect or Rega is a huge step-up in performance. Matter of fact, this is the biggest bang for the buck performance and you will be able to hear the difference between the two.
Go higher if you can afford it. You won't regret it.

[RGA]

From a Rega/AN turntable dealer - do your best to get a floating chassis design - which is what the AN TT1 ($1000) is.

I'm going to give you the same advice from a great set of ears that I was given - my dealer carries Project, Audio Note, Linn, Rega, NAD, Dual, Oracle turntables with an assortment of arms and carts. I took his advice went and listened and he's correct. One thread I was asking about Thorens.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=741264&highlight=Thorens+DRCope&r=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=416375&highlight=DRCope&r=

It's very hard to find a place to audition - Rega and Pro-ject offer budget players and are bigger companies - but if you can put them head to head - you'll see why exploring the lesser known products is worth your time.

[3db]

From a Rega/AN turntable dealer - do your best to get a floating chassis design - which is what the AN TT1 ($1000) is.

I'm going to give you the same advice from a great set of ears that I was given - my dealer carries Project, Audio Note, Linn, Rega, NAD, Dual, Oracle turntables with an assortment of arms and carts. I took his advice went and listened and he's correct. One thread I was asking about Thorens.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=741264&highlight=Thorens+DRCope&r=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=416375&highlight=DRCope&r=

It's very hard to find a place to audition - Rega and Pro-ject offer budget players and are bigger companies - but if you can put them head to head - you'll see why exploring the lesser known products is worth your time.

I had a floating chassis design, and I'm staying miles away from them. They are most excellent in transferring noise and rumble to the pickup.

[Mr Peabody]

At least reading from that link I now know why you pump Audio Note products so much. And, gullable me thought it was just sincerity. I like some of the suggestions for the Rega though.

Dual still makes new tables? I thought they were out in the 70's.

[Mr Peabody]

I have not compared my Rega to many other tables but it was so far better than my prior rig. I kept that old Pioneer table from the 70's because none of the newer tables sounded better. It wasn't until hearing a Rega that I realized vinyl can be taken to entire new heights of sound quality.

[02audionoob]

Who here has anything positive or negative to say about acrylic platters - especially the Pro-Ject version? Mine is glass, which weighs probably 4 pounds. Metal? MDF? Aluminum? What's your platter pleasure?

[dean_martin]

Dual still makes new tables? I thought they were out in the 70's.

I have one from the 80s that I bought used, but it was originally purchased in the US. I believe they had a presence here with their turntables until the mid to late 80s, but pulled out of the US market around that time (probably with the rise of cds/cd players). My understanding is that Dual continued to make turntables for the German (and perhaps other) markets during the time of their absence from the US and recently re-entered the US market probably within the last 5 years. I have no idea whether their tables still maintain the build quality and workhorse reputation of their past.

[Mr Peabody]

A friend of mine let me borrow his Dual for a while back in high school. I remember I liked it a lot. It would be interesting to see how it would compare to like a Rega. The Dual had the strobe right on the table.

[RGA]

Mr. P - don't really get what you're saying you imply that I'm not sincere - i own a P2 (NAD 533 is a P2 clone) and I have a better cart. The TT1 is far better than a P2 or P3. My dealer carries both and they say the same thing.

The link I posted is from a dealer selling both Rega and Audio Note. Floating designs in themselves can be very poor - SystemDekand now AN are not one of them.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/what_hifi_awards_2003_an_tt1.pdf

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm

The Rega is fine but the OP said up to $1k and IMO this is a far superior deck and still around the budget.

All of the best turntables are suspended designs even from the makers who make both - so the comment is ridiculous - you may need to wall mount them and they may be fussy to set up but...

And if one wants style too then look at the Michel tables namely the Gyrodec SE http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/gyrodec_orbe_turntable.html#tecnodec but he would have to buy this used for about $1k.

This is no knock on the budget Rega tables but if it were me I would want the best bang for my budget - and turntables have relatively high depreciation so it's wise to spend as much as possible on the table as one can - and upgrade later. The Rega even with the upgrades still isn't as good as the TT1 - although the pricing was off in my post the TT1 is above $1k in the U.S. and no arm and cart are included - but used is what I would be hunting for - something like a TT1 or Michel - The Michel a lot of the extra money is going to the sex looks but that is still a valid reason to buy - the TT1 is very dumpy looking in comparison - though considerably less money new and sounds at least as good.

I prefer the entry Pro-Ject tables to my Nad/Rega2 player and the Project is cheaper.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, aren't you the one who said "I do some marketing for Audio Note"?

[RGA]

No that is Dave Cope - the threads I posted were replies to questions I asked. Dave Cope is a Rega owner/dealer and then became a dealer for Audio Note - then a distributor for Audio Note and now does marketing work - puts on the AN shows etc. He was warning me who he was before he answered my questions.

[thekid]

I have one from the 80s that I bought used, but it was originally purchased in the US. I believe they had a presence here with their turntables until the mid to late 80s, but pulled out of the US market around that time (probably with the rise of cds/cd players). My understanding is that Dual continued to make turntables for the German (and perhaps other) markets during the time of their absence from the US and recently re-entered the US market probably within the last 5 years. I have no idea whether their tables still maintain the build quality and workhorse reputation of their past.

I have seen (but not heard) some newer Duals and think the build quality was a bit lacking. Of course I am comparing it to my 1019 which is built like a tank and almost as heavy. It looks like vinyl is starting to make a come back. I was in a record store yesterday and saw several new titles such as the latest Bob Dyan and Greenday release on vinyl. A good TT might start making it back into some people's systems so we might see more companies in the market making them.

[3db]

Mr. P - don't really get what you're saying you imply that I'm not sincere - i own a P2 (NAD 533 is a P2 clone) and I have a better cart. The TT1 is far better than a P2 or P3. My dealer carries both and they say the same thing.

The link I posted is from a dealer selling both Rega and Audio Note. Floating designs in themselves can be very poor - SystemDekand now AN are not one of them.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/what_hifi_awards_2003_an_tt1.pdf

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/viewpoint/1204/joeaudiophile4.htm

The Rega is fine but the OP said up to $1k and IMO this is a far superior deck and still around the budget.

All of the best turntables are suspended designs even from the makers who make both - so the comment is ridiculous - you may need to wall mount them and they may be fussy to set up but...

And if one wants style too then look at the Michel tables namely the Gyrodec SE http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/gyrodec_orbe_turntable.html#tecnodec but he would have to buy this used for about $1k.

This is no knock on the budget Rega tables but if it were me I would want the best bang for my budget - and turntables have relatively high depreciation so it's wise to spend as much as possible on the table as one can - and upgrade later. The Rega even with the upgrades still isn't as good as the TT1 - although the pricing was off in my post the TT1 is above $1k in the U.S. and no arm and cart are included - but used is what I would be hunting for - something like a TT1 or Michel - The Michel a lot of the extra money is going to the sex looks but that is still a valid reason to buy - the TT1 is very dumpy looking in comparison - though considerably less money new and sounds at least as good.

I prefer the entry Pro-Ject tables to my Nad/Rega2 player and the Project is cheaper.

My comment on float designs is ridiculous becuase all the best turntables are floating designs? Really? So you've basically dismissed my bad experience with one. That a boy RGA. Still running the course with blinders on I see. All the best turntables are not floating designs. A good portion are but not all.

[3db]

http://www.oracle-audio.com/product_delphimkv.html

If I could afford it, my entire audio chain would be nothing but 100% Canadian design/built.

[Mr Peabody]

What Canadian amp would you use? I hope you aren't going to say Classe'. Bryston maybe. Sorry to hijack but the OP hasn't been back any way.

All I can say is if a table is better than my P3 it is one heck of a table. I know there is better, I'm just saying for what it costs it does a great job even compared to expensive CD players I've used from Krell or Audio Notes 1.1x. I really am still a novice at turntables because the P3 is my first "high end" table. But if any one told me before hearing it vinyl could sound that way I wouldn't have believed it. Hearing what my P3 did for my albums is probably the most eye opening audio experience I've had. Buying an Acoustech phono stage might have been overkill but I got a good deal on it and I figured with the Ph-1P I shouldn't need to upgrade if I decided to upgrade tables or cart. Although that's not really on my agenda. I'm pretty satisfied with the sound I get. I am planning to try a Dynavector cart next though. I like the Elys but I am interested to see what the Dynavectors sound like. One thing I like about the Elys the sound is natural. A lot of the mass market type tables I've had cymbals and some other instruments just didn't sound right even with an expensive cartridge.

[RGA]

3db - having a bad experience with a floating design is hardly the fault of the floating design - what exactly was the turntable - a Linn a SystemDek? A Thorens?

A good floating design to my ear for less money trumps the non floating designs. And most of the best turntables are floating designs - at least from the makers who make both. They are less prone to vibration or can be if properly set-up.

My experience is not big either but I can say that a TT1(Turbo-charged SystemDek) blows the doors off what I've heard from Clearaudio, Roksan, Pro-Ject, Oracle (heck the repair guy at Soundhounds sold his top of the line Oracle for the TT2) and Rega.

Now I grant you - I'm the biased AN guy but my comments would also apply to Linn. Michel's is pretty darn cool too.

I would take a P3 over an entry AN DAC too - even the AN DAC's I like don't match good vinyl replay - The P3 certainly is good vinyl replay.

[3db]

What Canadian amp would you use? I hope you aren't going to say Classe'. Bryston maybe. Sorry to hijack but the OP hasn't been back any way.

All I can say is if a table is better than my P3 it is one heck of a table. I know there is better, I'm just saying for what it costs it does a great job even compared to expensive CD players I've used from Krell or Audio Notes 1.1x. I really am still a novice at turntables because the P3 is my first "high end" table. But if any one told me before hearing it vinyl could sound that way I wouldn't have believed it. Hearing what my P3 did for my albums is probably the most eye opening audio experience I've had. Buying an Acoustech phono stage might have been overkill but I got a good deal on it and I figured with the Ph-1P I shouldn't need to upgrade if I decided to upgrade tables or cart. Although that's not really on my agenda. I'm pretty satisfied with the sound I get. I am planning to try a Dynavector cart next though. I like the Elys but I am interested to see what the Dynavectors sound like. One thing I like about the Elys the sound is natural. A lot of the mass market type tables I've had cymbals and some other instruments just didn't sound right even with an expensive cartridge.

Amps I would be looking at are Anthem, Bryston (They have teh best warranty in the business..20 years..nothing else in the industry even comes close to this), SimAudio, and NAD...well NAD is kind of international or at least started that way.

Your P3 is an amazing table and its something I wish I could afford. I'm happy with my ProJect Xpression II woth the Ortofon SM-20. I may move up higher but before I do, I'll try the stylus of the OM-40 first since its interchangeable with the cartridge. If I had the cash, I'd go for that Oracle Delphi. Its a beautiful machine and sonically, it kicks ass. I've heard a few in my lifetime and they are amazing. I would also by a CD player from Oracle as well.

[Mr Peabody]

Bryston would be my pick of the lot. Followed by Sim which I only know by rep. The NAD Master Series is good too but I don't feel it would match the slam and detail the Bryston could provide. Classe' builds a good product and I liked some of their older gear but the more recent stuff has a sound that just turns me off.

I haven't heard much about the Oracle CD players. I've always wanted to hear an Esoteric to see if they warrant those huge price tags.

[RGA]

OP

Sorry I was trying to link the Hi-Fi Choice magazine review as I find What-Hi Fi magazine to be a bit of a fluff magazine. Hi-Fi Choice actually listen in level matched blind sessions with a panel of listeners - 10 to 20 people often the manufacturers themselves.

I'd recommend that magazine. As I recall Mitchel scored a 5 Star and the TT1 scored five stars (they're top marks the year I looked - which was about 5 years ago so....

Still i found the TT1 review but I can't find the Michel - a dealer may have a review copy

Audioconsult has the review copied http://www.audioconsult.dk/anmeldelser/audionote/Audio%20Note%20TT%201.htm

Not that you should rely on reviews too much but it's the only thing to go to if you're unable to audition for yourself.