Can you hear THD?

[SpankingVanillaice]

I always wondered about this but I notice many people say 10% THD is not really good or something but how can I tell if the speakers are making 10% THD if it didn't say it was? Meaning can you hear the distortion coming out of the speakers? Or do you have to set it to a certain volume to hear it? I kinda wonder if I can hear the THD distorion coming out of my Cyber Acoustics CA-3554 speakers since they are rated at 10% THD. I' am assuming you can hear 10% THD when you play the music. I just don't know when it's doing the 10% or not or how it sounds when it's at 10% THD.

[SpankingVanillaice]

I guess the point is that is 10% THD really that bad or is it not bad at all?

[basite]

THD is the total harmonic disortion. For most 'untrained' ears, anything below 1% is not really audible. Trained ears, in combination with accurate components, will hear even lower THD values...

10% THD is definately audible, and it's really that bad. With good equipment, it would probably sound awful.

chances are that with your PC speakers, you won't really notice much of the THD, since the speakers themselves are so inaccurate that it will sound 'disorted' all the time...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[SpankingVanillaice]

Well I do know that if I set the volume almost half way or higher it does sound distorted on the bass since it seems that my sub is underpowered. I noiticed alot of Cyber Acoustics speakers with sub are underpowered. But maybe that's good since you don't have to worry about blowing your sub. There are other people that said the same thing that Cyber Acoustics speakers are underpowered. But is that why they are 10% THD? If I set the volume before it distorts it does sound pretty good and clear I think. It also depends on what kind of music you are playing since if I play bass tester music it does distort around half way and if I go any higher it sounds like noise.:rolleyes5: But if I play it at normal volume and that is actualy pretty loud then I don't really hear any distortion.

[mlsstl]

The audibility of harmonic distortion depends on the harmonics involved. Even order harmonics are pleasant sounding and euphonic. Odd order harmonics are harsh and edgy. A higher percentage of 2nd harmonic distortion is less noticeable as distortion than a smaller amount of odd order harmonic distortion.

All acoustic musical instruments generate harmonics along with the fundamental note. That is what makes middle C on a trumpet sound different than middle C on a clarinet. That is why some audio components can appear to have high distortion but still have people like the way they sound.

As such, if you want to correlate THD to the sound of a piece of audio equipment you really need to know the level of distortion for each order of harmonic involved.

[SpankingVanillaice]

Well I' am sorta confused here but are you trying to say that they are people who like the distortion sound? Is that why they are alot of speaker systems like mine that is 10% THD? Come to think of it if 10% THD is that bad and people don't like it they would not make any speakers that has 10% THD. They would all be less than that if 10% THD is just plan bad. Apparently they are people that must like 10% THD that's why alot of speakers are rated that way. They are alot of speakers that are lower than 10% THD too but I notice they make alot of 10% THD also so I think they made speakers with different THD since everyone likes different sound.

[E-Stat]

can you hear the distortion coming out of the speakers?
Yes, especially since the chip amps in those powered speakers tend to generate odd order harmonics.


I kinda wonder if I can hear the THD distorion coming out of my Cyber Acoustics CA-3554 speakers since they are rated at 10% THD.
Here's a way to find out. Take this (http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/lt/default.html)distortion threshold test and evaluate your results. It will take a few times to familiarize yourself with the music (not exactly my favorite) so that you may answer your own question. 10% distortion relates to a -20 db outcome. Hint: I got the best results by focusing on the harmonics of the guitar. Increased distortion smears the detail.

rw

[mlsstl]

You're reading way to much into what I wrote. I know nothing about your speakers or their specifications. Unless one knows details of the test protocols, or know with certainty they followed standardized procedures it is difficult to render a judgment.

The "T" in "THD" stands for "total." It is a gross sum of all the distortions found in the test. You need to have a breakout by harmonic order to draw conclusions.

One also needs to draw a distinction between distortion that is audible and that which is musically pleasant. They are not the same thing. The distortion might be quite audible, but also pleasing to the ear and thus many people wouldn't care about the higher distortion.

In fact, in guitar amps, one intentionally looks for distortion. That is what gives some of those very interesting sounds that people like. Of course, a guitar amp is for "making" music while a stereo is meant to "reproduce" music.

Back to your speakers, do you like the way they sound? Unless you're shopping for something new I'd quit worrying about it.

[Mr Peabody]

I suspect the rating is for the amp that drives the speakers.

10% is typically bad. The reason they are made with that much distortion is because they use cheap parts to offer a cheap product. Compare the price and specs of your speakers to some Audio Engine.

10% vs. .05%

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533715-REG/Audioengine_A5B_A5_Bookshelf_Speakers_Black_.html# specifications

For the type of music you listen to you'd better wait and flip enough burgers to get the sub as well.

I bought the smaller pair for my daughterand these are amazing multi media speakers. If you are intent on your computer being your listening system, as it seems you are, quit buying every cheese ball speaker set up you see, buy some good ones and call it a day.

[SpankingVanillaice]

So there isn't anyone that likes 10% THD? I thought they made speakers that has 10% since there are people who like that and they make speakers that have lower than 1% THD for people who like lower THD. I hear alot of people say good things about how the sound is clear and good bass about speakers that are 10% THD so there must be people who enjoy the 10%.

[E-Stat]

So there isn't anyone that likes 10% THD?
Uh, no. 2% pure second may enhance brass, but 10% of ragged third, fifth, and seventh harmonic junk adds a most unpleasant edge. Do you ever listen to unamplified music? Do you have a reference of what real music sounds like devoid of electronic grunge?

rw

[SpankingVanillaice]

Well ok if there is nothin at all good about 10% why the heck they make 10% I mean theres got to be good something about them. I mean I read alot of reviews on speaker systems that are rated 10% and they say they sound amazing and good clear sound. Of cource any system if you turn them up too loud they will distort. But if you have it around half way or less depening on music it should be fine right? I hear some reviews say that it kinda distorts at high volume settings but if you don't turn them up too loud they sound great. Basicaly it seems that if you set the volume in middle range area or less it sounds great.


Maybe you guys are saying if you set it up too loud or past half way then it sound not good but if it's not too loud then it sounds great.

[Luvin Da Blues]

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:







It only feels good when I stop.

[E-Stat]

I mean theres got to be good something about them.
There is. They are cheap. I have power cords that are more expensive. Don't get me wrong. I have some Monsoon computer speakers that are similarly priced. The difference is that I understand their limitations.


I mean I read alot of reviews on speaker systems that are rated 10% and they say they sound amazing and good clear sound.
Everything is relative. Amazing as compared to what? An alarm clock radio?


Maybe you guys are saying if you set it up too loud or past half way then it sound not good but if it's not too loud then it sounds great.
You really need to expand your horizons beyond $150 powered computer speakers. I think you'll find an exciting new world that exists beyond those doors. :)

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Mmm, K, class let me see if I can explain this so even SVI can understand it.

Distortion, bad, mmmmm, K
Less distortion, good, mmmmm, K

"Well, why do they have 10% distortion if it's bad"?

Well Cartman, some people don't have a lot of money, mmmm K, let's say, like Kenny, so they have to buy cheap stuff and in order for it to be sold cheap the manufacturers use cheap parts and the result is not so good sound and more distortion.

" My friend says he likes distortion"

Well, Kyle, your friend is a dumbass, mmmmm K.

Let's put it this way for your friend, does the finest gear available have 10% distortion? No! mmmm K. If you were tuning in a radio station on an analog dial would you try to find the clearest sound or would you leave it in an area where all the static could still be heard along with the music?

So terms like "clean" and "clear" are associated with sound without distortion,
mmmmm K

So class what did we learn about distortion?

BAD!!!

Correct!

[SpankingVanillaice]

So are you saying at all volumes is sounds distorted???????? Even if it's not that loud? Or will it sound good if I set the volume half way or less before I hear it distort?


Basicaly now I need to know is is there distortion even at low volumes?

[SpankingVanillaice]

I am serious about this but even at low settings does it distort?? Since when I listen to my music at settings before it distorts it sounds pretty good. Only it sounds bad when it distorts at higher volume.


It's hard to beleve that every volume sounds bad.

[SpankingVanillaice]

I mean come on my speakers is the higher end series from Cyber Acoustics. They can't be the worst ever. I' am just shocked to hear just because the THD issue it is bad but I mean for real though even if I don't turn them up loud does it still distort alot or maybe not as much at lower settings????

[Luvin Da Blues]

The

Distortion

Increases

As

The

Volume

Increases.

(from 0%THD when they're turned off to 10%THD at FULL volume)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Mmm, K, class let me see if I can explain this so even SVI can understand it.

Distortion, bad, mmmmm, K
Less distortion, good, mmmmm, K

"Well, why do they have 10% distortion if it's bad"?

Well Cartman, some people don't have a lot of money, mmmm K, let's say, like Kenny, so they have to buy cheap stuff and in order for it to be sold cheap the manufacturers use cheap parts and the result is not so good sound and more distortion.

" My friend says he likes distortion"

Well, Kyle, your friend is a dumbass, mmmmm K.

Let's put it this way for your friend, does the finest gear available have 10% distortion? No! mmmm K. If you were tuning in a radio station on an analog dial would you try to find the clearest sound or would you leave it in an area where all the static could still be heard along with the music?

So terms like "clean" and "clear" are associated with sound without distortion,
mmmmm K

So class what did we learn about distortion?

BAD!!!

Correct!
:lol: :mad2: :crazy:

Good stuff Mr. P. Good stuff. :thumbsup:

Spankme, you need to go buy some computer speakers now that only have .05% THD... mmmm, K?

[frenchmon]

this guy SVI is messing with you all, he IS distortion......no one is that dumb....mmmmm,k?

frenchmon

[blackraven]

I'm laughing so hard, I think I broke a few ribs.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Please stop this thread before I laugh myself to death!

[frenchmon]

Unbelievable!

frenchmon

[mlsstl]

I took a look at the specs at the Cyber Acoustics web site and believe I know what is going on. These speakers probably use digital "T" amps. The amps have low distortion but it rises rapidly on clipping (which is typical of most solid state amps.)

Here's a web site that has a power/distortion graph for a typical T amp.
http://www.retrothing.com/2005/10/sonic_impact_ta.html
Note how it has very low distortion until it runs out of power, then things go to hell.

They probably wanted to make the amp look as powerful as possible so used the gross clipping power. The speakers I noted were 6 watts per channel for the satellites at the 10% distortion figure. If they would have used a 3 or 4 watt figure or so you'd probably have seen a figure under 1% but then they couldn't show the higher power rating.

At normal listening levels the distortion is likely fairly low. However, as you crank it up, there will come a point where things start sounding pretty nasty

[blackraven]

Help:lol: me, Help:lol: me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :yikes:

[SpankingVanillaice]

I took a look at the specs at the Cyber Acoustics web site and believe I know what is going on. These speakers probably use digital "T" amps. The amps have low distortion but it rises rapidly on clipping (which is typical of most solid state amps.)

Here's a web site that has a power/distortion graph for a typical T amp.
http://www.retrothing.com/2005/10/sonic_impact_ta.html
Note how it has very low distortion until it runs out of power, then things go to hell.

They probably wanted to make the amp look as powerful as possible so used the gross clipping power. The speakers I noted were 6 watts per channel for the satellites at the 10% distortion figure. If they would have used a 3 or 4 watt figure or so you'd probably have seen a figure under 1% but then they couldn't show the higher power rating.

At normal listening levels the distortion is likely fairly low. However, as you crank it up, there will come a point where things start sounding pretty nastyYa I have known that Cyber Acoustics tries to make there speakers high end like use those power pro series driver for the subwoofer instead of normal cones. Also the CA-3550 I have are gold plated plugs too which is good thing.

But it is really true that higher the volume it does sound pretty bad since to me when they are up all the way up the subwoofer sounds like noise and not real bass at all.

When I use to have the Altec Lansing VS4121 or the VS4221 they did the same thing meaning at higher volumes it gets really distorted. But when you listen to it before it gets distorted they sounded good.


The biggest reason I got the CA-3554 which is the same as CA-3550 is since they use the higher end subwoofer. They call them the Power Pro Driver.

[mlsstl]

All power amps run out of steam at some point. The only thing that matters is that you can get to the volume you want before that happens.

If you hit distortion at a higher volume, there are three choices. One is turn down the volume. Two is get a more powerful amp. Three is to get a more efficient speaker.

[GMichael]

Hi Spanky,

Yeah, as everyone has said. Companies make systems with higher THD because they are cheaper to build and can be sold cheaper. The distortion does increase with volume.
Question: How does your system sound to you at the volumes you want to listen at? If the answer is that you can hear the distortion, or that you wish you could turn it up more, then your system is not doing what you want. But if you upgrade your $150 system for another $150 (or even $200) system, there won't be a lot of improvement. Quality costs money. In my opinion, you would have to double the cost for each 10% increase in quality. You're better off by saving up for something that will blow your socks off, than to keep blowing your money on small changes that just leave you just as unsatisfied as you already are.

[Feanor]

Ya I have known that Cyber Acoustics tries to make there speakers high end like use those power pro series driver for the subwoofer instead of normal cones. Also the CA-3550 I have are gold plated plugs too which is good thing.

But it is really true that higher the volume it does sound pretty bad since to me when they are up all the way up the subwoofer sounds like noise and not real bass at all.

When I use to have the Altec Lansing VS4121 or the VS4221 they did the same thing meaning at higher volumes it gets really distorted. But when you listen to it before it gets distorted they sounded good.


The biggest reason I got the CA-3554 which is the same as CA-3550 is since they use the higher end subwoofer. They call them the Power Pro Driver.

FACT #1: Speakers that produce 10% THD at rated output certainly sound bad when played loud. (Maybe less bad at lower volumes.)

FACT #2: You tend to get what you pay for. $350 or $450 Audio Engine speakers (http://www.audioengineusa.com/a5_home.php) are going to sound a LOT better than $100 Cyber Accoustics, (especially when played loud). These $1700 Genelec 8030A (http://www.genelec.com/products/2-way-monitors/8030a/) are likely going to sound better still.

[Mr Peabody]

And, for roughly $3k there is a pair of Martin Logan that are powered and will run off even an Ipod.

[Feanor]

And, for roughly $3k there is a pair of Martin Logan that are powered and will run off even an Ipod.
Are they desktop?? :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

Are they desktop?? :biggrin5:
Depends on how big your desk is.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I concur with GM.

[SpankingVanillaice]

It looks like the flat pannel speakers are connected to a different amp inside my sub since if it was connected to one amp both the speakers and the sub would distort but I only noticed that the sub gets distorted at high volume setting.


The speakers do not change at all pretty much no matter how high or low I set the bass level since it looks like that the speakers are connected to a different amp than what the sub is. I guess it is good that they are seperate since then it would give better overall sound.

[E-Stat]

I guess it is good that they are seperate since then it would give better overall sound.
Not only that, if they were connected to the same amp, you would have a three driver mono system.

rw

[SpankingVanillaice]

Come this think of it the Audioengine 5 speakers are soo close like the M-Audio BX5a monitors I use to have. I mean they are the same Kevlar cones and silk dome tweeters etc. I wonder if I should of kept those BX5a monitors I had that costed $300 pair. The retail price of them are $400 pair. Right now they came out with the BX5a Deluxe which is better version of the original BX5a monitors. The Deluxe has a better waveguide to make the highs more clear etc. I use the own the original BX5a monitors and they look really close the the Audioengine 5. I think you can use the Audioengine 5 as a studio monitor like the BX5a can.

[SpankingVanillaice]

LOL they even have the same protection features as the M-Audio BX5a. I think the BX5a sounds about the same as the Audioengine 5 speakers. Also the frequency response is very close the the BX5a monitors. Maybe those speakers were the best I had. But now I dont have enough money to get the BX5a again. :(

[SpankingVanillaice]

I do remember though that the BX5a monitors did sound really great and yes way better than the Cyber Acoustics I have. Well of cource the BX5a costed $300 a pair and the ones I have now only cost $50.

[SpankingVanillaice]

Here is a link to the speakers I had once but I sold them which I should of kept them looks like.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileBX5a.html


Oh my I noticed that my old speakers only had only 0.5% THD. :yikes:


NOW compair my old ones to the new ones that is 10% THD I think my new ones suck compaired to the BX5a I had once. :crazy:

[Luvin Da Blues]

I think my new ones suck compaired to the BX5a I had once. :crazy:

Yup. Why did you sell them then??????????????

[SpankingVanillaice]

SO I guess it is what you pay is what you get kind of thing. But oh well I sold those BX5a monitors long agao. I guess I have to deal with the new ones that are $50 I have now and hopefully I can afford the new M-Audio BX5a Deluxe since that's what they have right now as there current model.

[SpankingVanillaice]

Well I didn't realize how great they were I thought they didn't sound that great but I was stupid plus they was actualy a gift from my moms best friend. He sure did get pissed about me selling them and said he won't buy anything expensive anymore to me. :frown5:


Ya he got me those on my birthday and it was a great gift.


I mean think about it how can I afford something that costs $300???? I would take a very long time for me to get that much. But I guess I have to save up and maybe hopefully I can buy them again soon as possible.

[E-Stat]

Oh my I noticed that my old speakers only had only 0.5% THD.
Note that the distortion spec is not for the speakers - it is for the built in amplifiers. Speaker distortion is another case altogether. 5" drivers don't fare well in that regard when it comes to bass given the limited surface area.

rw

[SpankingVanillaice]

But I guess for just $50 speakers I have now they do sound great but I can't compair them to my old ones I had before of cource since they costed $300 a pair.

[GMichael]

Well I didn't realize how great they were I thought they didn't sound that great but I was stupid plus they was actualy a gift from my moms best friend. He sure did get pissed about me selling them and said he won't buy anything expensive anymore to me. :frown5:


Ya he got me those on my birthday and it was a great gift.


I mean think about it how can I afford something that costs $300???? I would take a very long time for me to get that much. But I guess I have to save up and maybe hopefully I can buy them again soon as possible.

Web designers make a lot of money. Maybe you could take one job as a consultant. What have you got to loose?

[Auricauricle]

Aspirin! Aspirin! Aspirin!

[GMichael]

That stuff will rot your tummy.

[Auricauricle]

It's NOT my TUMMY that hurts now!!

[audio amateur]

beavis & butthead..hmmm.. I'll have to look that up :)

[Auricauricle]

Huh, huh....huh...

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's NOT my TUMMY that hurts now!!
You'll probably want an anti-suicidal for that. And you might as well give everyone else in this thread one (or more) as well. :crazy:

[Auricauricle]

:) :( :o

[Mr Peabody]

AA, did you get that post in your email before it was deleted? Oh, there's two AA's.

Can you look up deleted posts? If so, what's the purpose of deleting them?

[GMichael]

Hey Markw,

I see you lurking. Why not join in? We could use your help.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Why has this useless thread not been moved to "Digital Domain & Computer Audio" yet?

[audio amateur]

AA, did you get that post in your email before it was deleted? Oh, there's two AA's.

Can you look up deleted posts? If so, what's the purpose of deleting them?
Is this to me? If so i'm not sure what you're saying

[Auricauricle]

Well, actually there's AA and aa. How're you doin' there, aa?

[audio amateur]

Well, actually there's AA and aa. How're you doin' there, aa?
Actually no technically it's aa & Aa.
I'm fine thanks. Yourself?

[Mr Peabody]

This thread is cursed.

The deleted post was aimed at Auric and I wondered if he saw it before I deleted it.

A Am said something about looking it up and I wondered if he meant the deleted post. I didn't know there was a way to look up deleted posts if that's what you meant.

[GMichael]

A........ You know, you got a big AAAAAAA.....

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh Oh. I see said the blind man.

[GMichael]

Oh Oh. I see said the blind man.

As he picked up his hammer, and saw?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Ya know I never knew the rest of that saying. Maybe this thread ain't so useless after all. :idea:

[GMichael]

:prrr: :blush2: :yikes:

:mad2:
:mad2:
:mad2:

[Rich-n-Texas]

:shocked: :confused: :idea:
:out: :out: :out:

[Auricauricle]

Hey, hey, aa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3DLxR2fOdM

(Bear with me, lads...)

[audio amateur]

Why do you I always ge so confused with you guys?
I was refering to the post Mr. P deleted (which I never was able to read BTW) and as an explanation to the deletion (is that proper english?), one could read 'I had a Beavis & Butthead moment'.
Nice way to make things complicated:crazy:

[GMichael]

Why do you I always ge so confused with you guys?
I was refering to the post Mr. P deleted (which I never was able to read BTW) and as an explanation to the deletion (is that proper english?), one could read 'I had a Beavis & Butthead moment'.
Nice way to make things complicated:crazy:

Beavis & Butthead were semi-popular animated characters. They were very rude, crude, obnoxious and quite stupid. I believe that this was meant as a description of this thread as well as why he deleted his post. (whatever it was) I'm sure it was very rude, crude, obnoxious and quite stupid. (Sorry Mr. P)

[Auricauricle]

...it is a fact that truth is stranger than fiction.

[audio amateur]

Beavis & Butthead were semi-popular animated characters. They were very rude, crude, obnoxious and quite stupid. I believe that this was meant as a description of this thread as well as why he deleted his post. (whatever it was) I'm sure it was very rude, crude, obnoxious and quite stupid. (Sorry Mr. P)
Finally, someone who makes sense.. :)

[GMichael]

Oh no! If I have somehow become the voice of reason around here, we're all in deep doo-doo.

[JohnMichael]

AA, did you get that post in your email before it was deleted? Oh, there's two AA's.

Can you look up deleted posts? If so, what's the purpose of deleting them?





I enjoy reading deleted posts. It is one of the perks of the job. Most are entertaining and a few I have wanted to restore but I did not. Deleted posts can be insightful to a person's character.

[audio amateur]

I enjoy reading deleted posts. It is one of the perks of the job. Most are entertaining and a few I have wanted to restore but I did not. Deleted posts can be insightful to a person's character.
Can I be a mod? :biggrin5:

[Auricauricle]

Oh, boy....When did Mr. Orwell step in?

[GMichael]

I enjoy reading deleted posts. It is one of the perks of the job. Most are entertaining and a few I have wanted to restore but I did not. Deleted posts can be insightful to a person's character.

Uht oh!:yikes: :idea:

:blush2: :blush2:

[Auricauricle]

Abort, abort!

[Luvin Da Blues]

GMichael
This message has been deleted by GMichael. Reason: For JM's eyes only ....

Whats say GM!!

[audio amateur]

Yeah... We wanna know too

[GMichael]

It's a secret.

[Auricauricle]

Like I was sa

[E-Stat]

If nothing else, this is a great example why all of us should fall at our knees and be grateful. :)

rw

[JohnMichael]

Back at ya GMichael!

[GMichael]

Back at ya GMichael!

Awwww... Shucks.....:blush2:

[Rich-n-Texas]

MAN! This thread has really gone to hell hasn't it?

(Not that that's a bad thing) :thumbsup:

[Auricauricle]

Looks like one big pucker party to me...

[GMichael]

Looks like one big pucker party to me...

What? No slurpies?

[Auricauricle]

Here...Take thissun...

[JoeE SP9]

Gentlemen:
Every time SpankingVanillaice has started a thread it has degenerated into absolute BS. That's why I haven't posted to this thread before. I have been caught up in his nonsense more than once. I've learned my lesson.
He always starts with something that is twisted but not twisted enough to keep you from responding. He never wants to hear advice even though he always asks for it.:17::incazzato::sleep:

[GMichael]

But it sure can be fun if looked at right.