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surgeandoj
03-16-2004, 07:24 PM
Can't we apply the analogy of " a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" to cables?

If all my cables are expensive gold braided 10 gauge the quality decreases with every component that has copper or nickel connectors right?

and vice versa with a $20k system if i'm using standard 18ga. wire i degrade the sound everytime i run the wires between components.

so we match the cables with the system, if you bought a $200 system from the store use those 24ga. wires it comes with, its not going to sound better with $200 worth of cables.

Rockwell
03-16-2004, 08:59 PM
Can't we apply the analogy of " a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" to cables?

If all my cables are expensive gold braided 10 gauge the quality decreases with every component that has copper or nickel connectors right?

and vice versa with a $20k system if i'm using standard 18ga. wire i degrade the sound everytime i run the wires between components.

so we match the cables with the system, if you bought a $200 system from the store use those 24ga. wires it comes with, its not going to sound better with $200 worth of cables.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, but wire is the last place to look for a weak link. You probably wouldn't want to use 18ga with most systems, but 14-12 is ok for most applications and can be had cheaply. Exotic materials or geometries are unproven to audibly degrade less than standard wire and may even be worse.

surgeandoj
03-16-2004, 09:33 PM
if your speaker connectors are made of a cheap material(poor conductor), your expensive cable(good conductor) won't do anything except transfer the sound the poor conductor passes into the good conductor

markw
03-16-2004, 09:49 PM
Actually, copper is a better conductor than gold is. The only possible benefit to be realized by gold is it's better at resisting corrosion. For all intents and purposes, copper is pretty much as good as it gets. Silver is slightly more conductive than copper but the large cost increase isn't logicaly justified by the minimal increase in conductivity it offers.

The point of diminishing returns for cables and interconnects is much lower than advertisements would have you believe.

Have you ever peeked inside your equipment to see what they use internally?

mtrycraft
03-16-2004, 10:04 PM
if your speaker connectors are made of a cheap material(poor conductor), your expensive cable(good conductor) won't do anything except transfer the sound the poor conductor passes into the good conductor


Beside what markw is saying, just think about that poor conducting connector what distance is involved, say 1/10"? Can you do the math on that degradation? You really think you can hear that?
It all comes down to what is audible and what is buried beyond reach. Yes, you can add up all those individual differences. You still need to ask it all those make an audible difference. No such evidence exists.

skeptic
03-17-2004, 05:22 AM
"Can't we apply the analogy of " a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" to cables?"

I don't think it's a good analogy. I don't think it applies. You might say that each component contributes a certain amount of distortion. What kind of distortion. There are at least two kinds, linear and non linear. Linear distortion consists of changes in frequency response. This can be corrected for. Non linear consists of harmonic, intermodulation, compression of dynamics, and introduction of noise. This cannot be compensated for. In the first case, of linear distortion, the distortion of one component might offset another. A cable with a high frequency rolloff due to high capacitance might reduce the effects of a high frequency peak in a phonograph cartridge. That could be of benefit if it is so. The problem is, how do you know in advance, how do you control the specific parameters of distortion and the degree, and how much does it cost versus other alternatives. The other question with both kinds is how much distortion does it introduce and is it audible? A cable whose characteristic non linear distortion is .0001% is no worse audibly than one whose characteristic distoriton is .0000001% because neither of them is audible. Is it worth it to buy a more expensive cable because it has a high freqency rolloff of three tenths of a decibel less at 20khz? Most engineers would say that the difference is not significant and should not even be considered.

The proper design of a "system" is an end to end process looking at the expected system performance as a whole and selecting individual components based on the merits of their contribution to the whole. Most audiophiles do not assemble their sound systems that way. They buy one piece here, another there and hope that by getting the optimum of each type to therefore optimize the system. Instead they often create a hodgepodge in constant change looking for that elusive nirvana. Optimizing cables does no good if the contribution the better ones make is so small, as to be inaudible or if other shortcomings are orders of magnitude greater. Unfortunately the people interested in selling cables to the market, the ones you'd expect to provide this information have not done any research or homework to help us. Apparantly, the market has judged that they don't have to.

okiemax
03-17-2004, 11:21 AM
You said: "The proper design of a "system" is an end to end process looking at the expected system performance as a whole and selecting individual components based on the merits of their contribution to the whole. Most audiophiles do not assemble their sound systems that way. They buy one piece here, another there and hope that by getting the optimum of each type to therefore optimize the system. Instead they often create a hodgepodge in constant change looking for that elusive nirvana."

Aren't you overlooking the power of the placebo? I want my new component to be an improvement, so I believe it is an improvement. I get the same result every time I get a new component. So don't I get closer to nirvana with each purchase?

FLZapped
03-17-2004, 12:46 PM
Can't we apply the analogy of " a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" to cables?


Well, you can, but how do you know that cables are in fact the weakest link?

-Bruce

Monstrous Mike
03-17-2004, 01:16 PM
Can't we apply the analogy of " a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" to cables?
My own opinion is that, in the absence of actual proof that exotic cables make any sort of difference, there is need to justify the expense of exotic cables and your analogy is one example of many. Spending 10% of the system budget on cables is another.

Scientifically speaking, these sayings, when applied to audio cables, make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I think I could prove quite conclusively that the room acoustics are by far the weakest link in the audio chain followed by the speakers and their placement in the room.

Norm Strong
03-17-2004, 11:11 PM
Actually, a chain is EXACTLY as strong as its weakest link. Improvements in the strength of other links have absolutely no effect on the strength of the chain.

Electronic chains, however, are always improved by any improvement in the quality of any of the "links". Of course some components are so good, relative to other components, that improving them will scarcely result in a noticeable return on your investment. Such is the case with cables. Unless you started out with genuinely miserable interconnects, you can hardly hope for a recognizable improvement from sinking money into better ones.

Thomas_A
03-18-2004, 04:47 AM
Even if you buy the best speaker system in the world (e.g. the Ino Audio i56s/Profundus Z-4) and use professional help to design a perfect listening room, a standard 12 AWG copper cable will still be far away from the weakest link....

T

skeptic
03-18-2004, 07:40 AM
Not really. Usually a component is replaced because there is a perceived shortcoming. We buy a new speaker because the old one didn't have satisfactory bass only to realize later that the new one sounds shrill. We buy a tube amplifier because we think it will sound "sweeter" only to find one day that it doesn't have enough power to cleanly reproduce the music we enjoyed playing our favorite speakers at its loudest spot. Most upgrades are incremental. One slightly better piece here and another there. This is a very inefficient way to replace a sound system. Piecemeal. Unless there is a compelling reason such as the failure of a component and deciding it is not worth repairing. The only way usually to a significant improvement is a substantial upgrade of the entire system. This is something we usually don't like to think about because of the cost. It should also be carefully planned and not rushed into.

Bill L
03-18-2004, 03:01 PM
I agree that better systems benefit from better cables. Budget systems don't need them and it's money wasted IMO.
When upgrading a system, assuming acoustics and speaker placement has been addressed, (hey MM we agree on something sort of!) there may come a time when the cabling becomes the weakest link. My definition of weak link, in this case, is when possible benefits of other system components are being masked by inferior cables. But to say one component or cable is THE weak link in a system may or may not be true, depending on what aspect of the presentation is being referred to. For instance, bass may be weak or bloated by one component and treble may be harsh or rolled off by another. The weak link would then be a preference rather than an absolute.

Monstrous Mike
03-18-2004, 07:53 PM
Even if you buy the best speaker system in the world (e.g. the Ino Audio i56s/Profundus Z-4) and use professional help to design a perfect listening room, a standard 12 AWG copper cable will still be far away from the weakest link....

T
What utter crap. Where are you Phil? Any truth to this statement?

pctower
03-18-2004, 09:29 PM
What utter crap. Where are you Phil? Any truth to this statement?

I don't know Mike. I'm running out of steam and can't even figure out who's arguing what.

I just took over as the administrative partner for our firm and have been working very long hours. I'm just grateful I can come home and listen to a system I enjoy. Don't have much left in me to argue lately.

That last go-around with Mark caused me to look at my part in the nastiness and I didn't like what I saw.

mtrycraft
03-18-2004, 09:52 PM
I don't know Mike. I'm running out of steam and can't even figure out who's arguing what.

I just took over as the administrative partner for our firm and have been working very long hours. I'm just grateful I can come home and listen to a system I enjoy. Don't have much left in me to argue lately.

That last go-around with Mark caused me to look at my part in the nastiness and I didn't like what I saw.


What does that partner do? Hire and fire, pay bills, ensure cases are on track? Hope you got a fat raise :)

Save some steam for us :)

mtrycraft
03-18-2004, 09:54 PM
I agree that better systems benefit from better cables.

How is this? Better how?

Thomas_A
03-18-2004, 10:20 PM
What utter crap. Where are you Phil? Any truth to this statement?

What statemenet?
The 12 AWG cable?
Or the speaker system?

T

pctower
03-19-2004, 03:01 AM
What does that partner do? Hire and fire, pay bills, ensure cases are on track? Hope you got a fat raise :)

Save some steam for us :)

Yeah, all that kind of stuff. I got a huge raise, in stress that is.

I'll toss on some more coal and the steam no doubt will follow.

Monstrous Mike
03-19-2004, 08:34 AM
What statemenet?
The 12 AWG cable?
Or the speaker system?

T
Excuse my harshness in my first post but I was referring to your claim that 12 gauge cable being the weakest link is completely unfounded. If there was any evidence of this, it would be trumped by cable manufacturers and audiphiles alike. However, at this point in time there is none so perhaps you should preface statements like that saying this is what you believe but there is no proof of it.

Rockwell
03-19-2004, 09:01 AM
Excuse my harshness in my first post but I was referring to your claim that 12 gauge cable being the weakest link is completely unfounded. If there was any evidence of this, it would be trumped by cable manufacturers and audiphiles alike. However, at this point in time there is none so perhaps you should preface statements like that saying this is what you believe but there is no proof of it.

Mike, reread his statement. He said that 12 Ga cable is far away from the weakest link.

okiemax
03-19-2004, 12:00 PM
Not really. Usually a component is replaced because there is a perceived shortcoming. We buy a new speaker because the old one didn't have satisfactory bass only to realize later that the new one sounds shrill. We buy a tube amplifier because we think it will sound "sweeter" only to find one day that it doesn't have enough power to cleanly reproduce the music we enjoyed playing our favorite speakers at its loudest spot. Most upgrades are incremental. One slightly better piece here and another there. This is a very inefficient way to replace a sound system. Piecemeal. Unless there is a compelling reason such as the failure of a component and deciding it is not worth repairing. The only way usually to a significant improvement is a substantial upgrade of the entire system. This is something we usually don't like to think about because of the cost. It should also be carefully planned and not rushed into.

We agree on something! We both believe the placebo effect is temporary. If my experience is any indication, it must not last very long(if it it's there at all), since I have always had time to return unwanted new items before the money-back guarantee period expired. And on items bought used, I usually have been able to get back what I paid or almost that on resale.

I don't think you appreciate the enjoyment some audiophiles get from trying lots of different components.While you may have an intellectual understanding of what they are about, you don't seem to have empathy.

I have not been very active in equipment swapping for a while, but I recall buying, enjoying, and selling the following items all within a three-year period: Spica, Thiel, Vandersteen, and Spendor speakers; three Conrad-Johnson pre-amps; Berning, Conrad-Johnson, Adcom, B&K, and Dynaco amps: a NAD integrated amp; Linn and Rega turtables; a VPI record cleaning machine;and Straightwire cables. Not included are may other components I auditioned at home and returned.I would agree with you that this is not an efficient way to go about finding audio perfection, but it sure can be fun.

While I understand trying lots of equipment is not everyone's cup of tea, the cost of what I have just described was no more than some other recreation, such as vacation cruises. I should add that most used components were bought from audiophiles and resold to audiophiles, some of whom became friends. This was a bonus, since otherwise I never would have met them.

Thomas_A
03-19-2004, 01:26 PM
Excuse my harshness in my first post but I was referring to your claim that 12 gauge cable being the weakest link is completely unfounded. If there was any evidence of this, it would be trumped by cable manufacturers and audiphiles alike. However, at this point in time there is none so perhaps you should preface statements like that saying this is what you believe but there is no proof of it.


hmm...as another poster said, perhaps you misunderstood.

Apart from speakers/room, it is not uncommon that amps are limiting. Noise, hum, hiss are sometimes produced at audible levels. Recall in my last "HiFi" session, hum was heard from an Arcam amplifier playing through some quite big speakers with ATC drivers. LOUD.

http://hififorum.knaak.dk/eliot/U-A1.jpg

T

jneutron
03-19-2004, 02:33 PM
Thomas...you need a shave..

Are those fiberglass batts you have just sitting there in the open?

John

Thomas_A
03-19-2004, 03:08 PM
Yupp need a shave, ;)

Yes, the fiberglass were just put up temporaily for the small speakers (my monitors), but in this big room it would be needed a lot more in my ears...

T