38k but still not perfect.

[jaxwired]

I find it humorous that the 38k pair of hansen speakers being reviewed by stereophile mag this month are still found to be worthy of criticism. This is their mid priced offering. LOL. Having heard a variety of hi end speakers and having been an audio hobbyist for 25 years, I thinks it's safe to say that speakers over the 15k mark are a total rip off.
I'm not saying that they aren't great speakers. I'm sure they are sublime. However, I can get sublime speakers for 10k. Since 10k buys sound as good as 38k, 38k is a rip off no matter how excellent. If you've got the money and 38k is pretty much the same as 10k to you, then go for it. For the rest of us it is ridiculous.

[02audionoob]

It's a subjective matter. Some people might say they can get speakers for 3k that sound as good as speakers that cost 10k.

[jaxwired]

I agree that it is subjective. However, what you get for 10k compared to 3k can be seen in physical differences that can account for cost. Not true when comparing 10k to 50k speakers. There is zero justification for the price. The retail price is not correleated in any way to production costs. In speakers under 10k there does exist a correlation between retail price and production cost.
Since there is no justification in material cost, how could a 50k pair possibly sound better than a 10k pair? A manufacturer can easily produce speakers using identical materials for 10k. Probably, significantly less.

[elapsed]

For the same money, Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage would be top of my list: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/105sonus/

That being said, they cost 10x my own speakers (which coincidentally have the same drivers), but I can at least see where some of this money has gone towards. Absolutely exquisite, these speakers are a work of art. But as you both said, this is a very subjective purchase (in both sound and aesthetics).

cheers,
elapsed

[JoeE SP9]

For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.

[elapsed]

For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.
Only 25K.. that gives you plenty of remaining budget for some huge monoblocks to drive these beasts. ;)

cheers,
elapsed

[02audionoob]

Anyone know where I could get a pair of Von Schweikert VR-11 online? Maybe accessories4less.com has a refurb pair?

[Kevio]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.

And of course a manufacturer-friendly magazine like Sterophile is going to find problems if the solution to those problems is to upsell to a more expensive speaker from the same manufacturer.

[02audionoob]

People with lots of dough actually want to pay more for luxury goods, whether they consciously think about it or not. It's more exclusive that way. There woudn't necessarily be more cost to make a Louis Vuitton bag than a Coach bag, but look at the price difference.

[Ajani]

I'm not going to get into the debate about whether a $38K pair of speakers sounds better than a $10K pair.... that argument has been beaten to death, resurrected and killed again too many times on audio forums...

However, what I do find interesting is the notion that a $38K speaker should have any real faults (ignoring reviewer preferences)... for that kind of money, the speaker should just be exceptional all around... Frankly for $10K I'd expect all around exceptional....

[basite]

Only 25K.. that gives you plenty of remaining budget for some huge monoblocks to drive these beasts. ;)

cheers,
elapsed


funny you say that, I just heard the 25 anniversary edition CLX's today...

great speakers, and not really that hard to drive...
well, no, not every amp will do, but they're far easier to drive than the CLS's before them, or many other speakers...


article coming here on AR tomorrow or so :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[JoeE SP9]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.

And of course a manufacturer-friendly magazine like Sterophile is going to find problems if the solution to those problems is to upsell to a more expensive speaker from the same manufacturer.

If the glossy mags were not manufacturer friendly would they get all that megabuck gear to test? I think not.

[hermanv]

There is close to zero volume discount for speakers selling in the $20K and up price range because the volume is tiny. Actual costs are much higher than you might suppose. My friend and I built two pairs of three way of our own where the objective was to match 20K or better speakers. Our raw costs were about $5K per pair with free labor

For a three way 6 drivers easily run $1,200
If the crossover uses silver coils and first class capacitors $2,000 isn't hard
Cabinets and labor can easily reach $2,500
Recover development costs ???

All that totals $5,700. To pay the rent etc most companies need to double their costs so these would wholesale for $11,400. We need to add some for development, who knows how long, but a year is reasonable. Next the dealer and distributors add their mark-up and bingo $25,000 to $30,000.

Expensive as all get out, but not a rip off and not gouging. Only you can decide if the sound improvement equals the additional cost increment since decent speakers can be had for closer to $3,500.

[Kevio]

If the glossy mags were not manufacturer friendly would they get all that megabuck gear to test? I think not.Sure, but the principal driver for friendly relations has got to be the advertising revenue.

[Ajani]

There is close to zero volume discount for speakers selling in the $20K and up price range because the volume is tiny. Actual costs are much higher than you might suppose. My friend and I built two pairs of three way of our own where the objective was to match 20K or better speakers. Our raw costs were about $5K per pair with free labor

For a three way 6 drivers easily run $1,200
If the crossover uses silver coils and first class capacitors $2,000 isn't hard
Cabinets and labor can easily reach $2,500
Recover development costs ???

All that totals $5,700. To pay the rent etc most companies need to double their costs so these would wholesale for $11,400. We need to add some for development, who knows how long, but a year is reasonable. Next the dealer and distributors add their mark-up and bingo $25,000 to $30,000.

Expensive as all get out, but not a rip off and not gouging. Only you can decide if the sound improvement equals the additional cost increment since decent speakers can be had for closer to $3,500.

Well said :thumbsup:

People always look at just raw material and possibly labour costs for speakers/equipment and not all the other expenses that go into producing mega-bucks Hi-Fi gear... Most products whether audio or otherwise are "overpriced" if you only consider labour and raw material (direct costs)... but when you add in all the overheads, selling and distribution expenses, normal profit margins etc etc etc... suddenly prices make a lot more sense... (though of course, there are some products that are plain rip-offs)...

Whether, the difference in price between a $40K speaker and a $4K speaker is justified is solely up to the person writing the cheque!!!

$3,500 is where I think you can get high-end speakers (not SOTA or absolute perfection)... I think you can get the next best thing from a mere $1K -$1.5K (Whether the tripling in price to get to high-end is worth it, is also up to the person writing the cheque).

[RGA]

I of course agree with HermanV and Ajani.

First to the issue of perceived weaknesses - a Ferrari is WEAK when it comes to creature comforts, amenities, and comfort compared to a Bentley. The Bentley is weak compared to a Ferrari where high speed and high speed handling is concerned. But they're both better than a Ford anything.

The design of the loudspeaker may or may not appeal to your ear period - but there are plenty of $35k+ loudspeakers on the market and perhaps one of them will do it for you.

Secondly, as the others have noted costs just are not the same with small production loudspeakers that are hand built versus stuff stamped out of an assembly line using the cheapest parts available at a marketing department's and accounting departments demand that X part must cost .005 cents each rather than what is the best part - use it and then price the thing accordingly.

Price and value is determined by the individual. If you hear a $50k loudspeaker that brings you to a catharsis when you listen and the $10k one does not then despite the measurements of how many drivers or types of drivers and box or no box etc then $50k is money well spent and $10k is not. The reverse may be true. I have only heard one loudspeaker under $10k that I would buy over my loudspeaker and it's from the same maker. Another person may like a speaker at $1k more than my speaker and view mine as overpriced and "insane" for that kind of money. So be it - you can't please all the people all the time...

[JoeE SP9]

I guess you haven't seen or heard of the Bently Continental Flying Spur.

0 to 60 mph in 4.6 sec Top speed 195 mph.

Very fast with all the luxury and comfort anyone could want in a 4 door sedan.

[RGA]

Yeah I figured someone would mention it - hopefully however the point was not lost. Perhaps I should have said Bugatti

[audio amateur]

No a Bugatti goes even faster. 250+mph for their latest model :p

[JoeE SP9]

It has 2 doors and 2 seats. I presume you mean the Veyron.

[Feanor]

It has 2 doors and 2 seats. I presume you mean the Veyron.

The Veyron. Now there's true excess.
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/Bugatti_Veyron16.4-montage.jpg

[JoeE SP9]

You have to admit it is kind of homely looking.

[basite]

You have to admit it is kind of homely looking.



I actually like it, It's a beast. It might not be as slim as other exotic cars, but where else would they house all that power?

It's amazing in a Wilson Audio Alexandria sort of way :p

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[JoeE SP9]

Most Wilsons are kind of homely also.

[audio amateur]

That wasn't necessary Feanor:cryin:. I'm finding it difficult enough not having the possibility to drive while at university here
Keep it to audio please ;)

[audio amateur]

Speaking of which, I'm heading home in a couple weeks for a few days to attend the Geneva Motor Show :D :D :D

[E-Stat]

For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.
Have you ever heard any Sound Lab models? They radiate into a far wider angle and still use full range elements like your Acoustats. The CLX is a two way design with half the bandwidth at the bottom requiring subwoofers for the same 25 hz response.

rw

[E-Stat]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build...
I'll agree with that to an extent when it comes to selecting which cones to put in a box. Such is not the case when all driver fabrication is necessarily hand made as in the case of my speakers. There are a sum total of zero full range electrostatic drivers available from Parts Express. Then there's the case of competition - you cannot price your product above that of other similar designs and still be successful unless there is some value.

As a point of reference, what would be the speakers you'd choose for the proverbial desert island? - wired for AC of course. :)

rw

[hermanv]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.
This is only true if there is no real competition (which could well be the case for some of the exotic speakers, MBL anyone?) If there is competition, prices are driven down to a fixed multiple of costs. Since marketing people hate that eventuality, they try and find ways to express how different (better) their product is even if it means stretching the truth.

[Kevio]

Competition exists only if you can make direct comparisons between products. Marketing professionals make concerted efforts to "differentiate" their products from potential competitors and thus weaken the effects of competition.

In the best case, differentiation is a patented innovation. But more frequently, differentiation consists of altering the appearance, developing a novel or unexploited distribution and/or sales model or writing technically impressive sounding sales pitch.

[Feanor]

Competition exists only if you can make direct comparisons between products. Marketing professionals make concerted efforts to "differentiate" their products from potential competitors and thus weaken the effects of competition.

In the best case, differentiation is a patented innovation. But more frequently, differentiation consists of altering the appearance, developing a novel or unexploited distribution and/or sales model or writing technically impressive sounding sales pitch.

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

[Ajani]

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

Someone is itching for a fight...

Where's my popcorn???

[GMichael]

How about a pair of these? http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/german-physiks/tiebreak/PRD_119557_1594crx.aspx

For more than I paid for our house, they should do more than just play music.

[nightflier]

Anyone can make an expensive speaker, but to make an inexpensive, competitively-priced one, that takes work, research, cooperation between the different interests in one's company, and a reputation for value. Here's a question: do those Hansen's really sound better than oh, I dunno, a pair of Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers at a fraction of the price, but that use similar construction techniques? Do they sound better or just different?

On the hand-built side, Talon makes some pretty expensive speakers, but are they better than say Meadowlark speakers? I've heard several models from both companies and while they sound different, I couldn't tell you that the Talon ones sound better. Aside from the specs (the Talons can take a lot more) they don't differ that much. That said, Meadowlark is out of business while Talon has managed to survive, even if their top engineers left for other digs (like equally-expensive Escalante).

I've seen Hansen speakers at shows and frankly, I don't see where all that money went. To hear the reps, it's all in the engineering and research, but I can only accept so much of that. And as far as sound (mind you, this was at the show), they did not sound as good as Revel's ultimas. That said, for my hard-earned money, I'd be very happy with a pair of second hand Revel Performas, too, although they do look a bit more plain.

That brings up another factor: looks. People that buy $40K speakers want something that impresses as much as their Lambo does in the driveway. At those higher price-points I think they should look as beautiful as they sound. Hansens don't look the part. For looks, it's hard to beat Sonus which I'd take over any Gershman, and likewise I'd take Avalons over Wilsons. But that's just me.

[RGA]

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

On the appearance of the AN E I see you could make the argument but do you actually know what the differences are between the $40k version and say the $6,500 version and the $2k Kit?

Unlike EVERY other maker in the entire audio industry you can actually purchase stripped down versions or flip the coin - turbo charged versions. So many audiophiles spend a lot of money changing caps and wiring in their loudspeakers which is in part doing the exact same thing. Or they go and get their amp or cd player "modded" which is in essence the same thing.

Granted the $40k version may not be worth it in the sense that the models down may be viewed as "close enough" to not bother - but I've heard a number of $40k and more speakers over the last 20 years and so has Constantine Soo. Having heard them, I agree with his choice.

This dealer carries Kharma, Soundlabs, Marten Designs at a whopping $250,000US for their speakers, and the AN E Sec/Sig. They could have carried anything from anybody and it keeps good company.

And despite all those top speaker names when it comes to the AN E Sec/Sig - maybe the least costly of those speakers - "These are what I call my desert island speakers."

http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/178

Constantine Soo's review of the costly standmount.
www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SIGNATURE.html

[Feanor]

Someone is itching for a fight...

Where's my popcorn???
It's just too easy :p

[Florian]

Hi RGA,

maybe Mr. Soo also takes the size, complexity and room requirements into consideration. For some people it is not worth it to rent a crane, instal 160 ampere breaker boxes, move hunders of kilos around, use 8 or more amplifiers. In that case, he made his choice by taking all points into consideration, not only sound. Just a thought.

The almost same can be applied to me, i just spend 10000$ on some used amps. I could sell my system and buy the top Audio Note speaker. But i dont, just like Mr. Soo i could buy the Audio Note system. What does this tell you?

[RGA]

The difference is that Constantine has heard and owned Apogee and is not biased by what others say.

Of course people consider other things besides sound - speakers that require gymnasium sized rooms and 8 amplifiers, cranes and electric companies to come out to change the transformers will have an impact - but requiring all of that does not indicate that the sound will be any better. The Model Nautilus requires a bunch of amplifiers and it costs more than the AN E Sec Sig and looks better and it even has deeper bass - but the AN E/Sec Sig to my ear sounds considerably better. I grant you that is subjective - it always is where sound is concerned but just because something needs a lot of amps and weighs a million pounds does not in the least make it better. Surely you don't associate quality with weight.

[Florian]

Of course i dont, the point i am making is that i am in a similar situation as Mr. Soo but still come to a different conclusion ;-)

I owned almost all models Apogee ever made (C-Minor, Caliper Sig., DIVA, Scintilla, Grand and Stage) in various rooms. I have enough money to buy the big Audio Note. I have the "same" choice as Mr. Soo..... but still the outcome is different. I would not take the speaker to a desert island with me.

Cheers

[RGA]

The difference is that Constantine has listened to both and made a decision based on the sound. You have not heard the AN E and are basing your decision on your bias toward Apogee or a bias against boxed loudspeakers. Also to be fair one might also prefer the sonics of the Apogee had they heard both. While I don't I do not speak for all people.

And like you said there are many reasons to buy speakers other than sound.