BFD Installation and Setup Help

[Rich-n-Texas]

I purchased a Behringer Feedback Destroyer that I want to use as a sub EQ in hopes that my LFE response will improve in my media room. Some of you may already know... when I stand outside the listening area, the low frequencies are more audible than when I'm sitting anywhere inside the area. I've tried to position the sub in different unobtrusive spots as well as put up 2 out of 8 (still have to put four more together and hang two custom made) acoustic panels, but the results have remained unchanged.

I'm starting this thread for multiple purposes, first and foremost is to get help from other BFD owners on how to set up the myriad filters, modes of operation, get interpretations of test results, and to help educate others who might be having similar issues and are looking for a solution. I believe that those who recommended I buy one know what they're talking about, and in my quest for audio bliss I'm willing and have the resources to integrate this solution.

The parts I have are the BFD itself, the 1/4" to RCA adapters, an extra subwoofer cable and the trusty ol' Rat Shack SPL meter. Aside from the front panel, the box is not real attractive (especially the mounting ears, while although they're removable, they leave exposed circuitry :incazzato: ) so I'll be hiding this box inside the audio cabinet.

Suggestions I've received so far...

Read the manual BFD guide like 3 times before you start and again step by step while your programming it. Well that's what I did. It starts off somewhat complicated but gets easier once your in there getting your hands dirty

...get your trust SPL meter out and yeah, read that manual guide a few times, go through it step by step, and you'll be fine.
Well, I've read through the manual somewhat, not thoroughly like these two have suggested, but so far all I've gotten out of it is how to set it up as "Front of House" or as "monitor mix" which is beneficial to a musicain while playing onstage. That's all well and good but right now I'm failing to understand how to apply the principles explained in the manual to my purposes.

In any event, the writeups and guides over at The Home Theater Shack are providing some answers to my questions, but I think it would be beneficial if some back-n-forth developed on this forum, so I'll continue to ask my q's here when I start digging in.

Stay tuned...

[GMichael]

Try here. http://bfdguide.ws/

[Rich-n-Texas]

Try here. http://bfdguide.ws/
That page suggests this page...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/

but again, I think it would benefit the HT community here and myself, if we have a reference thread that isn't link after link to someone else's sites. "Know what I mean Vern?"

[audio amateur]

Sorry bud can't help ya

[kexodusc]

Rich, this is the page you should be reading, and is what I was referring to when I said "manual"...should have been more clear:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdmeasure/

It has everything you need, I think. You will find links to the test tone frequencies you will need to fill out the spreadsheet. If you have Avia or some HT setup disc that has those frequencies, you can use those, too.
Start by putting your sub where you want it, then take the measurements. That'll give you a picture of how nasty your room is.

Then you'll proceed to tackle a few peaks at a time....

Give this a shot and feel free to ask questions...I'm sure myself, LJ, Wooch, and eveyrone will chime in.

[GMichael]

Buwahahahahahahahahahah.....................

[kexodusc]

Oh, and the only part of the manual you need to concern yourself with are the parts relating to Parametric Equalization, and later on, the tables at the back dealing with ISO frequencies and bandwidth.

By the way what is your desired Q and and would you say your sub is stochastic, or deterministic?

[GMichael]

Heh heh heh......

[Rich-n-Texas]

I've heard someone else talk about "Q". It's a confusing subject IIRC. Irregardless, my desired I"Q" is well, unreasonable. :cryin:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Heh heh heh......
Be quiet and pay attention post whore

[GMichael]

Be quiet and pay attention post whore

That's "man whore" to you buddy.;)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, "man whore" only gives out his discarded seconds. :incazzato:

And stop kissing me!!! That right is reserved for my two favorite girleys, ONLY!!!

[GMichael]

Yeah, "man whore" only gives out his discarded seconds. :incazzato:

And stop kissing me!!! That right is reserved for my two favorite girleys, ONLY!!!
;) :devil: ;) :devil: :smilewinkgrin:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sorry bud can't help ya
AA, "help me help you". :yesnod:

Rich, this is the page you should be reading, and is what I was referring to when I said "manual"...should have been more clear:
To REW or not to REW, that is the question. IIRC neither you or L.J. used it right?

According to what I read, if I want to use the wizard on a laptop, I'll need a Line-in and a Line-out (the mic & headphone connections aren't useable), which I don't have on my laptop, and I don't want to drag my main rig out for this. I didn't get a chance last night to check the model # of my meter so I didn't bother to d/l the .cal file, if I even need it.

[L.J.]

Rich, read this page (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/) first. Get your BFD connected properly and get your input level set. Once that part is finished, you can move on.

Next download the test tones and spreadsheet stuff from here and start taking measurements (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdmeasure/). Shoot the numbers into the spreadsheet and get yourself a pretty little graph.

Read everything from beginning til end a couple of times. Once you start doing it, it'll get easier and easier. You kinda learn as you go and just experiment.

BTW, when you hook it up make sure everything is off and turned on in the correct order. I plugged in my BFD when the sub was on and got a nice little heart attack.

[kexodusc]

I plugged in my BFD when the sub was on and got a nice little heart attack. Heh, heh...Titanics don't like big voltage surges...

[GMichael]

Heh, heh...Titanics don't like big voltage surges...

Bet he had to change his shorts.:nonod:

[kexodusc]

Bet he had to change his shorts.:nonod:
That's ok...over the holidays when my inlaws were visiting and I was stuck on the couch I had a hard time sleeping a few nights. One night I turned my system on with my Harmony remote and forgot it was set to...LOUD....damn loud. So at 2 AM some smutty soft core show on the movie network was oohing and aahing with my in-laws down the hall. I damn near crapped my pants then. :nonod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Inlaws? Inlaws? Wha? Inlaws? You gotta be... Inlaws? Inlaws? Don't talk about... Inlaws?

:out:

[L.J.]

Heh, heh...Titanics don't like big voltage surges...

Yeah funny thing is you warned me and I still did it lol.

My kids turned the Denon way up on accident and it scared the snot out of both of them. I hear this loud sound like a plane is crashing in the front. I run up front only to have my boys pass me up doing about a hundred headed toward mom. It was hilarious.

[L.J.]

Well is it still sitting in the box or did you hook that baby up yet?

[GMichael]

Maybe he's still reading.

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's out of the box and waiting until after my house party preparations are over. I've got some co-workers coming over this Saturday for a "Survivors Party" (those in my group who made it through the RIF).

Ya know, I don't recall reading anywhere in the setup guide, owners manual or measurement guide anything stating that the BFD is to be installed in-line between the receiver and the sub. NBD, and I know that sounds like "nitpicking", nevertheless this is all the more reason why I'm glad there are experienced users here that're willing to help out.

(My little suck-up speech :ihih: )

How 'bout that. Three posts exactly 5 minutes apart. :sosp:

[L.J.]

Rich you can pull out a couple of pointers from this thread.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=25488

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well I guess I should thank everybody for putting all these links up afterall. It will help centralize a lot of info.

I like what Wooch said here:

"I've gotten mixed results using the REW software. Once you learn how to use the REW, it's actually simpler to program the BFD because it automatically tells you what settings you should use and how many EQ filters to setup. The REW simplifies things even further if you use a MIDI connection between the computer and the BFD. With a MIDI connection, you can actually use the computer to control the BFD. But, that's a bridge that I haven't crossed yet."

I'm a computer geek... dork... What can I say?

[L.J.]

Well I guess I should thank everybody for putting all these links up afterall. It will help centralize a lot of info.

I like what Wooch said here:

"I've gotten mixed results using the REW software. Once you learn how to use the REW, it's actually simpler to program the BFD because it automatically tells you what settings you should use and how many EQ filters to setup. The REW simplifies things even further if you use a MIDI connection between the computer and the BFD. With a MIDI connection, you can actually use the computer to control the BFD. But, that's a bridge that I haven't crossed yet."

I'm a computer geek... dork... What can I say?

Rich, if you go the REW route, keep track of cost and gear used to get it all going. Myself & others may be interested. I went the manual route simply because I didn't want to invest any more money. $70 was a killer deal with cables included! I think the mic alone came to more than what I paid for the BFD.

Knocking out a few peaks manual made a huge diff for me. My response isn't ruler flat but I'm pretty happy with my results. I'd love to get an automated system going though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah I'm not interested in spending, what was it, $80 some-odd bucks on an external USB sound card so I can use a company owned laptop to set up the BFD at this time. I look at this project as another set-it-and-forget-it deal, and the only time I'll be doing anything with it is when I dust or add another component to the audio cabinet.

I wonder though how much I'll need to change when I finally have the dreaded echo out of my living room. :idea:

[GMichael]

Echo?...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Echo?...
Wot?

:sosp:

[GMichael]

Echo?...

[Rich-n-Texas]

I can't hear you!!!

:23: < == Led Zeppelin @ 90dB before BFD. :ihih:

[Auricauricle]

L.J.!! Good see your avatar, man!

Rich, where I come from BFD means sumpin' else....You sound anxious, friend! (Hee hee hee...)

[Rich-n-Texas]

It means something else where I come from too Aa.

Irregardless...

[GMichael]

It means something else where I come from too Aa.

Irregardless...

Wildwood?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Man I used to have so much fun in Wildwood. Great boardwalk and great beaches.

Seriously though

[GMichael]

Cape May is cleaner.

[L.J.]

L.J.!! Good see your avatar, man!



Wassup man. I've been trying to hang around more. Rich keeps giving me a hard time :ciappa:

[GMichael]

Where does he give you his hard...

[kexodusc]

Rich, how are you making out with that thing?

[GMichael]

Ewwwwa.....

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, how are you making out with that thing?
Haven't done anything yet kex. Getting ready for tomorrow's party.

Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY! :cornut:

[Auricauricle]

Party?! Party?!?!

Give Rich a break, LJ. Last hard time he gave anybody it took two weeks b'fre they could get the watch out...

[Woochifer]

That page suggests this page...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/

but again, I think it would benefit the HT community here and myself, if we have a reference thread that isn't link after link to someone else's sites. "Know what I mean Vern?"

That's Sonny Parker's BFD site (the other link is the OLD link to Sonny Parker's BFD site). Everybody that uses the BFD as a subwoofer EQ at one point or another will use his setup guide. It's by far the best resource on the web for the BFD. Behringer's instructions suck because subwoofer EQing is not the BFD's primary function. They're helpful if you intend for your BFD to double as a feedback attenuator for your concert audio setup, otherwise they suck.

If you're seeing the Room EQ Wizard instructions, look for the link taking you to Parker's previous BFD guide version that has the manual measurement instructions. That has instructions, plus spreadsheets and correction charts for doing manual measurement using a Radio Shack SPL meter.


Well I guess I should thank everybody for putting all these links up afterall. It will help centralize a lot of info.

I like what Wooch said here:

"I've gotten mixed results using the REW software. Once you learn how to use the REW, it's actually simpler to program the BFD because it automatically tells you what settings you should use and how many EQ filters to setup. The REW simplifies things even further if you use a MIDI connection between the computer and the BFD. With a MIDI connection, you can actually use the computer to control the BFD. But, that's a bridge that I haven't crossed yet."

I'm a computer geek... dork... What can I say?

I actually preferred the EQ profile that I got using the manual measurement method. The REW settings only gave me three filters, and I felt that the bandwidth on the suggested REW filter settings was too wide. I prefer to tinker and fine tune. But, a lot of the guys that hang out on the BFDGuide forum are Java programmers, and the REW app is their baby and it's constantly getting revised and retooled. If you already have a USB soundcard and a calibrated mic, you might have a great time with that tool, since it gives you all sorts of other audio measurements and visuals. Plus, it's right in Richie Rich's price range ... FREE!!!!!!

The MIDI connection sounds cool in theory, but I read on the BFDGuide forum that some BFD models have problems with the MIDI connections.

[Woochifer]

Yeah I'm not interested in spending, what was it, $80 some-odd bucks on an external USB sound card so I can use a company owned laptop to set up the BFD at this time. I look at this project as another set-it-and-forget-it deal, and the only time I'll be doing anything with it is when I dust or add another component to the audio cabinet.

I wonder though how much I'll need to change when I finally have the dreaded echo out of my living room. :idea:

If you got a SPL meter, just do the measurements and start reading up on how to setup the BFD filters. One of the fun things about the BFD is that you can program multiple profiles and EQ curves.

The only time you will need to change the settings is if you change the location of the sub and/or seating location. Getting the echo out of your living room might not do much to alter the bass, since most materials have minimal effect on low frequencies.

[kexodusc]

I'll second Wooch. I didn't find REW to be very accurate - it seemed the adjustments it made had consequences on frequencies, and it didn't bother to correct them. Granted it only suggested 3 filters to me as well, and I use 5 (including a deliberate boost around my subs F6 to extend response). Easier in some ways but I'm not sure that software is better than YPAO or Audyssey EQ, and many users of those systems report issues too. Still, it is better than trial and error and gets you close for quick results so it's a worthwhile option and will be great for some people. YMMV.

I think the manual method definitely gives you a better idea of what is going on - it's a learning experience.

[Rich-n-Texas]

That's Sonny Parker's BFD site (the other link is the OLD link to Sonny Parker's BFD site). Everybody that uses the BFD as a subwoofer EQ at one point or another will use his setup guide. It's by far the best resource on the web for the BFD. Behringer's instructions suck because subwoofer EQing is not the BFD's primary function. They're helpful if you intend for your BFD to double as a feedback attenuator for your concert audio setup, otherwise they suck.
I'll drink to that. :yesnod:


If you're seeing the Room EQ Wizard instructions, look for the link taking you to Parker's previous BFD guide version that has the manual measurement instructions. That has instructions, plus spreadsheets and correction charts for doing manual measurement using a Radio Shack SPL meter.
Got it, thanks.

...But, a lot of the guys that hang out on the BFDGuide forum are Java programmers, and the REW app is their baby and it's constantly getting revised and retooled. If you already have a USB soundcard and a calibrated mic, you might have a great time with that tool, since it gives you all sorts of other audio measurements and visuals. Plus, it's right in Richie Rich's price range ... FREE!!!!!!
I'll drink to that too! :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Okay, the BFD's up and running. I remembered to set the operating level correctly on the back of the unit, and heard no 60 Hz hum when I powered it on. I then set it to Bypass mode so there would be no active filtering. I spent most of my available time today getting the sub level set according to the BFD Guide that's been linked to. The test movie I used was the BD version of The Dark Knight, and the Dolby TrueHD audio format. I played it "at the maximum level you would listen to it", monitored the input level and ajusted the sub-out level at the receiver until the level meter on the BFD just barely hit the red LED. I used the scene where Bruce and Alfred are testing a bullet using that gun they had setup in the lab. There were 4 shots fired, and when the 3rd shot went off, that's when the meter peaked into the red.

After I finished that step, I then used my test DVD that I got when I sub'ed to Sound & Vision mag a couple of years ago called "Home Theater Tune-Up" to level off the sub using it's volume control, all the while using my SPL meter to ensure it's level matched the left-front speaker reference level. So, the result of all this was improved LFE volume in my listening area during the movie.

That's as far as I went today because... well, the rest of the movie distracted me from the task at hand, then I switch over to the NASCAR race. If anything here doesn't sound right (I know my level setup description might sound vague), let me know.

One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=Rich-n-Texas]Haven't done anything yet kex. Getting ready for tomorrow's party.

Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY! :cornut:



:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Gee, this joint is jumpin' today!!! :rolleyes:


One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?


Got the answer Rich. With both left and right lights lit, filters that are set up for one engine are applied to the other. To disengage one, hold both buttons down briefly and the left channel will remain lit. You're connected to the Left Engine so you'll now be working with the correct one.

[L.J.]

Okay, the BFD's up and running. I remembered to set the operating level correctly on the back of the unit, and heard no 60 Hz hum when I powered it on. I then set it to Bypass mode so there would be no active filtering. I spent most of my available time today getting the sub level set according to the BFD Guide that's been linked to. The test movie I used was the BD version of The Dark Knight, and the Dolby TrueHD audio format. I played it "at the maximum level you would listen to it", monitored the input level and ajusted the sub-out level at the receiver until the level meter on the BFD just barely hit the red LED. I used the scene where Bruce and Alfred are testing a bullet using that gun they had setup in the lab. There were 4 shots fired, and when the 3rd shot went off, that's when the meter peaked into the red.

After I finished that step, I then used my test DVD that I got when I sub'ed to Sound & Vision mag a couple of years ago called "Home Theater Tune-Up" to level off the sub using it's volume control, all the while using my SPL meter to ensure it's level matched the left-front speaker reference level. So, the result of all this was improved LFE volume in my listening area during the movie.

That's as far as I went today because... well, the rest of the movie distracted me from the task at hand, then I switch over to the NASCAR race. If anything here doesn't sound right (I know my level setup description might sound vague), let me know.

One question that kept coming up during all this is that the lights on the "Engine L" & "Engine R" "Couple" control buttons were lit solid. I assume this doesn't matter since I'm in Bypass mode correct?

I used U571, depth charge scene :cornut:

I may go back in and finally finish up. I knocked down my peaks and got some good results but my plan was to go back in and do a better job when I had free time. Or maybe not, I've been busy lately. BTW, I haven't forgot about you. I'll get that out soon.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I decided to download the test tones Zip file from THTS's downloads page and then burnt them to a CD. I have the test tones that range from 16 - 160 Hz, and each one plays on my Oppo player for about ten seconds.

I'm concerned that I didn't set my measurements level correctly during that part of the setup. When I used the Dark Knight scene to get the peak (barely "clipping") level by adjusting the sub level at the receiver I didn't make note of the receiver's volume. I then used the S&V HT Tune-up disk's test tones to adjust the level at the sub's amp to equal the other speakers (I had to decrease the level by about 5 dB). I then went back to the receiver's test tones to get 70 dB on the SPL meter by adjusting the receiver's volume to -5 dB. Am I supposed to be using that level setting on the receiver when I start running the test tones, or should I be using the receiver level I didn't make note of, meaning I have to set up the level all over again? Also, I assume that since the meter on the BFD never went into the red when I was running the test tones I don't have to worry about harming the sub, correct?

A couple of things I did notice when I played the d/l'ed test tones with the receiver @ -15 dB... a picture on my wall at a location diagonal from the sub and very close to the corner of the room started rattling at the lower end of the frequency range, and the glassware in a china cabinet very close to the sub started rattling during the upper range frequencies. This scared me the first time I heard these and rushed to turn the receiver's volume down. I ran the sweep again, this time standing in the corner by the picture and realized just why it was rattling. :eek6: So I learned that there is some serious gathering of the lows over there.

[L.J.]

I decided to download the test tones Zip file from THTS's downloads page and then burnt them to a CD. I have the test tones that range from 16 - 160 Hz, and each one plays on my Oppo player for about ten seconds.

I'm concerned that I didn't set my measurements level correctly during that part of the setup. When I used the Dark Knight scene to get the peak (barely "clipping") level by adjusting the sub level at the receiver I didn't make note of the receiver's volume. I then used the S&V HT Tune-up disk's test tones to adjust the level at the sub's amp to equal the other speakers (I had to decrease the level by about 5 dB). I then went back to the receiver's test tones to get 70 dB on the SPL meter by adjusting the receiver's volume to -5 dB. Am I supposed to be using that level setting on the receiver when I start running the test tones, or should I be using the receiver level I didn't make note of, meaning I have to set up the level all over again? Also, I assume that since the meter on the BFD never went into the red when I was running the test tones I don't have to worry about harming the sub, correct?

Once the input level is set on the BFD, the AVR's sub output shouldn't be adjusted after that. You use the sub to adjust the volume. If I remember correctly, I used the test disc to adjust the output to 75db and made note of my AVR volume to play the rest of the tones at.

Sounds like your moving along just fine. My meter hits red sometimes. Maybe on the most dynamic scenes. Usually in the green though.

BTW, I have my sub bumped up about 3-4 db higher than the rest of my speakers :thumbsup:




A couple of things I did notice when I played the d/l'ed test tones with the receiver @ -15 dB... a picture on my wall at a location diagonal from the sub and very close to the corner of the room started rattling at the lower end of the frequency range, and the glassware in a china cabinet very close to the sub started rattling during the upper range frequencies. This scared me the first time I heard these and rushed to turn the receiver's volume down. I ran the sweep again, this time standing in the corner by the picture and realized just why it was rattling. :eek6: So I learned that there is some serious gathering of the lows over there.

Once you start getting those peaks knocked down, you'll notice a lot smoother bass response. I could barely adjust my sub level correctly because my spl meter needle was bouncing everywhere. Now it's nice and steady. I could also raise my sub's volume. I had to lower the volume due to the nasty peak I had. All good stuff. I couldn't get the full potential of my sub without the BFD.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Funny, I was just getting ready to post something here just to keep the thread from falling under the radar...

Well, I haven't started taking measurements yet, but...

(drum roll please)

I think I've FINALLY gotten the right location for my sub,

AND...

I think I've FINALLY gotten my speakers level matched to the point where I'm hearing even more detail, and for the first time, hints of a true surround sound experience which, believe it or not, was sorely missing. I played a concert DVD in DTS and I heard instruments previously undetected (Tony Levin's bass guitar really hitting home), and voices with excellent tonal qualities. I'm suspecting some of that has to do with with the new position of the sub.

I read (yes, 3 - 4 times) the manual setup guide at HTS, and noticed that the author adjusted the receiver volume to hit +73 dB using the 16 Hz tone as the reference, so that clears up one of my questions.

I didn't take any readings last night (not to make excuses but...) because it was so warm out... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! I had windows open throughout the house, and I have a busy street so it caused a lot of inconsistent readings at the meter. That jerk who drives a pickup truck with 1 billion watts of subwoofer power pinned my SPL meter when he drove by ( :incazzato: )

Anyway, thanks for stopping by L.J. I think I'm going to have fun with this project when I get the hang of the BFD. :yesnod:

[L.J.]

Pretty interesting once you start working with it. I nice piece of gear but man is it ugly :smilewinkgrin:

[Rich-n-Texas]

"Ugly" = correct, that's why it will be co-habitating with the ugly Emotiva amp behind the cabinet door when all's said and done.

[kexodusc]

Ugly amp? I think it's quite stunning really. The LED's are a bit bright if you're in a small room, but in my larger dark room they look pretty cool.

Glad you're getting the hand of it Rich. You'll notice quite the difference. Do you have your speakers set to small or large? Worth going back later and experimenting with small if you don't have them that way already.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think they're set to large. I used the Yamaha Receiver Manager s/w to set the levels so I wouldn't have to constantly start and stop the S&V disk while I was setting the levels using the GUI menu. That tool is coming in handy for this process.

So did anybody hear what I said... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! ?

About 80 degrees today. Might just cook a steak on the grill for dinner. :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

I think they're set to large. I used the Yamaha Receiver Manager s/w to set the levels so I wouldn't have to constantly start and stop the S&V disk while I was setting the levels using the GUI menu. That tool is coming in handy for this process.

So did anybody hear what I said... +75 degrees HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! ?

About 80 degrees today. Might just cook a steak on the grill for dinner. :biggrin5:

That's way too hot for this time of year. How can you put up with it?

[Rich-n-Texas]

No such thing as "way too hot for this time of year". No sir!

[GMichael]

It's unnatural. Call Gore.

[f0rge]

It's unnatural. Call Gore.

i agree, stop global warming, we need the ice for parties.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I never should've said it. It just encourages the alarmist camp I suppose. :nonod:

(A high of 80 degrees today.) :ihih:

[GMichael]

Hold on everybody! Somebody here said something ultra-important, and we missed it.:eek6:

Rich, you said something about the weather. Cute, but boring.:rolleyes5: That wasn't it.
I said something about Gore. Smart, but that's not it either.
That leaves f0rge. You said something about global warming. That's just stupid.:arf: NOT IT!:eek6: Oh wait. Here is is. You also said "PARTIES!" :yikes:
THAT'S IT! That was the equation. Parties cancel out boredom.:thumbsup:
BRILLIANT!
Who's got the drinks?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here's a question...

For those with a PS3 (and BFD of course), would you use it or your DVD player to run the test tones when setting up a preset for movie playback?

[L.J.]

Here's a question...

For those with a PS3 (and BFD of course), would you use it or your DVD player to run the test tones when setting up a preset for movie playback?

PS3 since it's my main source. You can set up a different set of filters for each source if you like.

[f0rge]

Who's got the drinks?

i could totally go for a couple of beers right about now, first round is on me

[GMichael]

Rich was caught groping Jess in public.

Rich, I set you up with a nice girl, and this is how you treat her?:incazzato:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I used U571, depth charge scene :cornut:
U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.


I may go back in and finally finish up. I knocked down my peaks and got some good results but my plan was to go back in and do a better job when I had free time. Or maybe not, I've been busy lately. BTW, I haven't forgot about you. I'll get that out soon.
Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:

[L.J.]

U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.


Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:

I don't think the input level needs to be perfect so you'll be a ok. I rarely see red. Actually, it's closed off in a cabinet so I don't pay any attention to it anymore.

BTW, if your like me....it's gonna take a couple of hours from start to finish. I was getting tired of hearing all the tones over and over so I got some ear plugs for next time.

[kexodusc]

The red just means the BFD is close to clipping the signal....it's not optimal if it goes much beyond that...sort of the final warning. I would just turn the volume on the sub up a bit, and manually decrease the sub level in the receiver's settings a bit to compensate.

Rich, setting filters is a iterative process. Set your first 2 filters (starting low to high) and then measure again, you may find some other frequencies outside the target range were affected...especially multiples of the frequency in question.

When you get really brave with it you can use it to boost your subs lower frequencies a bit to compensate for where it starts to roll off. It's sort of cheating but it's a great little perk to this thing.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well I've completed reading the manual setup guide (I'll still be using it step-by-step) and I'm going to start in on it this weekend.

The thing that still bugs me is the logic behind the level setup. Isn't all this referencing movies for loud passages, all the way through adjusting the sub level at its amp kind of arbitrary? Compounded further by the fact that, like L.J. says, the loud passage doesn't really have to peak in the red? I understand kex what the red LED is indicating, but all the pre-measuring excercises seem kind of irrelevant to me.

[Woochifer]

U571 Blu-ray is on its way. :ihih: I'll see how it compares to the Dark Night scene I was using.


Enjoy some beers while you're working. I know I will. :yesnod:

Might want to add Master and Commander to your playlist. IMO, that's the gold standard for movie soundtracks. Deep, tight bass plus amazingly three-dimensional surround imaging. This track is not only great for subwoofer demos, but it's also one of the best soundtracks for checking your surround speaker placement.

[Woochifer]

Well I've completed reading the manual setup guide (I'll still be using it step-by-step) and I'm going to start in on it this weekend.

The thing that still bugs me is the logic behind the level setup. Isn't all this referencing movies for loud passages, all the way through adjusting the sub level at its amp kind of arbitrary? Compounded further by the fact that, like L.J. says, the loud passage doesn't really have to peak in the red? I understand kex what the red LED is indicating, but all the pre-measuring excercises seem kind of irrelevant to me.

If you're hitting the red LED on the BFD, then you might want to dial back the subwoofer level from your receiver and compensate for that by raising the level on the subwoofer itself. You'll still wind up with the same decibel level, but you won't get a distorted/clipped signal sent through the BFD.

[Rich-n-Texas]

That's what I did Wooch. The setup guide says it's okay if the level hits the "Clip" LED occasionally (I know what clipping is), but I mean, I could run level tests with different movie tracks all day and I'd never get the same results twice, so that's why it just seems arbitrary to me. Other than the fact that clipping is not good.

[kexodusc]

It's not really arbitrary, but it is splitting hairs a bit. We're only recommending you bump the volume on the sub up and turn the gain from the receiver down to minimize any clipping possibilities on every sound track. Some movies will be a bit louder than others, what you want to avoid is the BFD clipping the signal before it reaches the sub's amp. The sub's amp will amplify what it receives until it's clipping point, and you most likely have more headroom on the sub than you do on the receiver. But still, you could probably leave it the way you have it and not notice any clipping effects as long as you own it. It's just a question of how sure you want to be.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Okay. When I test again with U-571, I'll adjust so there's no possibility that explosions will clip (Y'all got me paranoid now :nonod: )

[kexodusc]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I blast the music or a good movie I'll hit the red a few times during the movie. I don't notice any nasty stuff, the walls are too busy shaking and looking over my shoulder to see if Lucifer himself has cracked the earth and crawled into my HT room.

As long as it's only hitting the red when it's really, really loud, louder than you normally listen to(ie, your loudest peaks) then that's all you need to worry about. If it was tripping the red at your normal listening volume you'd want to change the setting.

[L.J.]

Okay. When I test again with U-571, I'll adjust so there's no possibility that explosions will clip (Y'all got me paranoid now :nonod: )

your funny :ciappa:

[Rich-n-Texas]

BTW, when I came home from work the other day I noticed a picture sitting on the floor below it's hanger. It's in a very old frame with a thick cardboard frame eye; don't think its related to my experimentation, but if it's a sign of things to come...

:ihih:

[Rich-n-Texas]

This is a before graph. I'll start setting up filters next, but I just wanted to get some comments...

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/SubRawcal.jpg

[kexodusc]

This is a before graph. I'll start setting up filters next, but I just wanted to get some comments...

Rich, does this include the correction values for the Rat-shack meter?


Ha ha ha....look at that..bet you didn't think you were missing half an octave of bass did ya?

This is where the fun begins. And this is where all bets are off too on what the "right thing to do is". For my setup, it was a few days of trial and error. I can't just look at a graph and say this frequency, that Q, that many dB's, presto.

Maybe Sir T or Wooch can chime in but, I would probably start with a guess that you'll want a cut for starters around 38Hz or so to lower all that stuff a bit...maybe at 1/6 octave bandwidth? You might even want to cut all that stuff below 40 Hz down to minimize the effect of that big dip, but I'm guessing that's 2 filters. You might get lucky though and get away with one filter, leaving you a nice "house curve" below 35 Hz that gradually rises. Then on the other side of your sick suckout at 45 Hz I'd probably want to think about cutting the peaks at 56, and 80Hz.

After each filter is set, go back and measure again...the curve might look different outside the range of frequencies of the filter. Always start from lowest to highest.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, does this include the correction values for the Rat-shack meter?
What gets plotted is the compensated SPL with the correction added in using a formula for each cell.

Ha ha ha....look at that..bet you didn't think you were missing half an octave of bass did ya?
I don't know. Did I set something up wrong? I used the test tones that started @ 16Hz - 160Hz, so for the graph I deleted the rows in the table that contained tones below 16Hz and above 160Hz.

This is where the fun begins. And this is where all bets are off too on what the "right thing to do is". For my setup, it was a few days of trial and error. I can't just look at a graph and say this frequency, that Q, that many dB's, presto.
Understood. I haven't read the explanation on Q and House Curves yet, but one good thing about trial & error is that I'll be able to setup filters and such in my sleep after all's said and done.

Maybe Sir T or Wooch can chime in but, I would probably start with a guess that you'll want a cut for starters around 38Hz or so to lower all that stuff a bit...maybe at 1/6 octave bandwidth? You might even want to cut all that stuff below 40 Hz down to minimize the effect of that big dip, but I'm guessing that's 2 filters. You might get lucky though and get away with one filter, leaving you a nice "house curve" below 35 Hz that gradually rises. Then on the other side of your sick suckout at 45 Hz I'd probably want to think about cutting the peaks at 56, and 80Hz.
Don't know. I haven't read that part yet. :confused: Thanks for the ideas though.

After each filter is set, go back and measure again...the curve might look different outside the range of frequencies of the filter. Always start from lowest to highest.
Maybe I'm interpreting my graph wrong, but when I compare it to the sample graph included in the Shack's guide, it seems flatter overall.

I'll tell ya one thing, I spent a LOT of time silencing all the rattles in the room that the test tones caused. The TV rattled, the fireplace rattled, stuff in the front hall closet rattled... and on and on and on. I've got shims all over the place! :crazy:

[L.J.]

Great post Kex. I tried to dish out some green but I need to recharge.

Rich, you got a freakin crater going on over there :frown2:

Kex is right. You gotta get yourself a couple of free hours and have a crack at it. This is when those ear plugs are gonna come in handy :biggrin5: Make sure you record everything you do.

I'm interested in what the rest of the guys have to say. Come to think of it, does Sir T drop in anymore?

[Rich-n-Texas]

...Rich, you got a freakin crater going on over there :frown2:
:lol: I agree. BUT, IMO it legitamizes my graph when compared to the sample graph on the Shack's guide where there's a huge dip at close to the same frequency.

Kex is right. You gotta get yourself a couple of free hours and have a crack at it. This is when those ear plugs are gonna come in handy :biggrin5: Make sure you record everything you do.
Will do. I've used Excel quite a bit in my working life, so I know my way around it pretty well. I've got a couple sets of earplugs too...


I'm interested in what the rest of the guys have to say. Come to think of it, does Sir T drop in anymore?
I haven't seen The T in quite a while. If it's because he's sick of pix, and it comes to a vote of who to ban, dumbass gets my vote hands down. :mad5:

[L.J.]

Will do. I've used Excel quite a bit in my working life, so I know my way around it pretty well. I've got a couple sets of earplugs too...


Yeah if you tweak something and get bad results, you can always go back and start from a decent spot. I had to do that A LOT of times. Yeah, your about to have some serious fun :lol:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah if you tweak something and get bad results, you can always go back and start from a decent spot. I had to do that A LOT of times. Yeah, your about to have some serious fun :lol:
Heck, I can still send it back and just be happy with the results of the sub's new placement. :p

[L.J.]

Heck, I can still send it back and just be happy with the results of the sub's new placement. :p

you'll do a good job. it's not the easiest thing to worth with but it gets the job done and the results are worth it.

[Rich-n-Texas]

BTW, before I forget, I watched U-571 in glorious DTSHD-ma last night on "loud". Some of the explosions hit 92 dB in the room ( :yikes: ), but at no time did they clip at the BFD, so all things being equal to the bullet test scene in Dark Knight, the bullet test scene wins the peak dB matchup on my equipment. :yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

A few inaccuracies in my post #82, especially about my graph looking flatter than The Shack's example. It looks to me like my first filter should start just after the first test tone: ~17Hz. don't ya think?

Always start from lowest to highest.

[GMichael]

Congrats Rich. I am glad to see that you are enjoying your new toy.

[kexodusc]

A few inaccuracies in my post #82, especially about my graph looking flatter than The Shack's example. It looks to me like my first filter should start just after the first test tone: ~17Hz. don't ya think?
Well, that's up to you....you might want to leave the frequencies below 30 Hz a few dB higher - the BFD pages call this a "house curve". You might not.

Either way. At 17 Hz, you are near the extreme of your subs bass ouput.

Now, remember how a filter works. It is "centered" at a certain frequency, but the curve is as wide or narrow as the Q setting you plug in. Remember the filter is basically going to apply a cut in a sort of "U" shape depending on how much cut you apply and how wide the Q.

So say you cut -10 dB centered at 30 Hz, if your bandwidth is wide enough, you'd expect 30 Hz to be down by -10 dB, and the frequencies lower and higher to be cut by less. So 25 and 35 Hz might only be cut by 4 dB, and 20 and 30Hz only cut by 2dB for example (those are made up numbers).

So your bandwidth will need to be wide to reach 17Hz, and it would be cut weaker than the center frequency is cut.

And cutting at 17 Hz will cut frequencies on either side...you probably want to focus on "center frequencies" when cutting.

Not sure that made any sense?

Oh, you generally only want a few filters on this thing (3 or 4 I see most often), so use them wisely.

[L.J.]

Not sure that made any sense?



Sounds good to me :yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Congrats Rich. I am glad to see that you are enjoying your new toy.
Thanks GM. Maybe after this project I'll stop tweaking for a while... Maybe...

How's your piggy-bank looking?

[GMichael]

Oh, you generally only want a few filters on this thing (3 or 4 I see most often), so use them wisely.

The rest I get, but why is it that fewer filters is better? Wouldn't it be more precise to have more filters with smaller Q's? Do you end up with a smoother curve with fewer filters? Does the overlap become too complicated?

[L.J.]

Thanks GM. Maybe after this project I'll stop tweaking for a while... Maybe...



I gotta couple of things on my to do list but that's just me taking it to the extreme. I think that once you get your bass squared away the rest of your system should be sounding good.

[GMichael]

Thanks GM. Maybe after this project I'll stop tweaking for a while... Maybe...

How's your piggy-bank looking?


At least until someone pricks your interest in something new.:ciappa:

Piggy is looking OK. That other problem is finally coming to an end. Should be done in a couple weeks. But now we have GM 2.0 on the way. Most of my wanted upgrades will still be on hold. The BFD should be within budget though. We'll see.:idea:

[Rich-n-Texas]

At least until someone pricks your interest in something new.:ciappa:
I'm more comfortable with the word "piques" as opposed to the word "pricks". :sosp:


Piggy is looking OK. That other problem is finally coming to an end. Should be done in a couple weeks. But now we have GM 2.0 on the way. Most of my wanted upgrades will still be on hold. The BFD should be within budget though. We'll see.:idea:
And everything is well with Mom-to-be I trust?

[GMichael]

I'm more comfortable with the word "piques" as opposed to the word "pricks". :sosp:

You say tomato.........


And everything is well with Mom-to-be I trust?

Everything? If by everything, you mean that the morning sickness (that's really 24/7) is part of being well. Or that the moodyness is well. Or that she won't let me "play through" is well. Then yeah, everything is great.
We go for more sono-pics this Wednesday. We should be able to tell if it's going to be Sarah or Michael.:3:

[kexodusc]

The rest I get, but why is it that fewer filters is better? Wouldn't it be more precise to have more filters with smaller Q's? Do you end up with a smoother curve with fewer filters? Does the overlap become too complicated?
No. Well, I shouldn't say that. If you are a master EQ-er and know what you're doing, then yeah, go ahead and perform surgery cutting up those frequencies.

However, I've always been told over and over at the HTshack and by the sages here, that the BFD is a great tool, but has it's limits like any eq. The more filters you apply, the more unwanted impact you're going to have on frequencies on either side of the filter. You could be distorting the signal unintentionally. You might also have an effect on mulitples of the frequencies you target. I don't profess to be the BFD guru here though, so I'm hoping Wooch or someone will chime in and help you out.

In general, we aim to flatten the big peaks, those are the audible ones. Our ears are less sensitive to smaller deviations. And a few well placed broad filters can smooth everything out rather nicely. If nothing else, killing the big peaks accomplishes most of the benefit you're aiming for.

[GMichael]

I think I get it now. Less is more. More or less.

[L.J.]

Well...........................

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, you know how lazy I am. I have to make sure I've heard a variety of sources and formats before I take the next step, so I can be SURE it's making a difference, right? :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Edit: I went ahead and increased the BW to 15Hz.

Here's my first attempt to level the response out. At this time I've only set 1 filter just to see if I'm following the steps correctly and if what I think should happen actually does. This graph is what I expected to see.

BFD parameters:

Freq = 20Hz
Setting + Fine = 20 + 0
BW = 15Hz
Gain = -10dBhttp://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/800ASW2ndcut.jpg

[GMichael]

Looks like you got something going on around 45 htz.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You ain't kidding buster! :eek6:

I had a different graph up there with an explanation relevant to that one, but I went ahead and replaced it with one where I set the filter to have a wider bandwidth. I didn't do a very good job of editing the text after I replaced the graph, so the post probably didn't make much sense.

Anyway, as kex suggested, I'm trying to flatten out the response starting from the lower frequencies and then working my way up. If I can get everything up to 40Hz toned down closer to the 62 dB level where my lowest frequency measurement starts, then that huge dip won't look so dramatic. I'll worry about the "House Curve" setup later on.

[audio amateur]

Damn, I need to get myself a nice HT system and tweak away too!!! This is the kind of stuff I'd love to do..
Good luck with it Rich, you're getting all the advice you could possibly need! :3:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I have to tell ya the truth. I'm starting to lean towards the REW method. The only other piece of hardware I need is the USB "soundcard" which has Line-out L/R & Line-in L/R. I can get exactly what the crew at HTS talks about direct from Behringer for under $50, and since I already have a laptop and necessary cabling, there'd be no other expense. The materials I need to finish my panels have already been paid for as well.

I get it that the manual mode, while tedious is probably going to give me better results, as has been pointed out, but OTOH the REW would quicken the process and satisfy the computer geek in me. We'll see, but in the meantime I'm plodding along in manual mode. :rolleyes5:

[kexodusc]

I have to tell ya the truth. I'm starting to lean towards the REW method. The only other piece of hardware I need is the USB "soundcard" which has Line-out L/R & Line-in L/R. I can get exactly what the crew at HTS talks about direct from Behringer for under $50, and since I already have a laptop and necessary cabling, there'd be no other expense. The materials I need to finish my panels have already been paid for as well.

I get it that the manual mode, while tedious is probably going to give me better results, as has been pointed out, but OTOH the REW would quicken the process and satisfy the computer geek in me. We'll see, but in the meantime I'm plodding along in manual mode. :rolleyes5:
Hey rich - get crackin'.

I wouldn't bother with the frequencies below 20 Hz much. Go after the audible stuff in 20's and higher first. Try some cuts, tell us what you did and post your results. Shouldn't take too long. I made a cheat sheet on a note pad to get the steps in the right order - made it quicker for me.

[bfalls]

I didn't see it listed in the thread, but there's a correction list for the Radio Shack SPL meter Rich is using with substantial correction for the low frequencies. I found this one on the Audiogon Forum site. It's listed all over the web.

10Hz +20.5
12.5Hz +16.5
16Hz +11.5
20Hz +7.5
25Hz +5
31.5Hz +3
40Hz +2.5
50Hz +1.5
63Hz +1.5
80Hz +1.5
100Hz +2
125Hz +0.5
160Hz -0.5
200Hz -0.5
250Hz +0.5
315Hz -0.5
400Hz 0
500Hz -0.5
630Hz 0
800Hz 0
1KHz 0
1.25Khz 0
1.6KHz -0.5
2Khz -1.5
2.5Khz -1.5
3.15Khz -1.5
4KHz -2
5KHz -2
6.3KHz -2
8KHz -2
10Khz -1
12.5KHz +0.5
16KHz 0
20KHz +1

[Luvin Da Blues]

I'm starting to lean towards the REW method. The only other piece of hardware I need is the USB "soundcard" which has Line-out L/R & Line-in L/R.

Rich, I have a USB SC I'm not using anymore if your interested. Let me know.

[GMichael]

What a place we have here!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, I have a USB SC I'm not using anymore if your interested. Let me know.
Thanks LDB. It has to have Line-in & Line-out as opposed to Mic & headphone. I'd suggest that shipping it would cost more than just buying one since it would be an overseas shipment correct?

bfalls, the Excel table that I plug the readings from the RS meter into automatically convert the raw SPL numbers to "compensated" numbers (based on the model # of the meter) using a formula in each cell. Thanks for posting that in any event.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Thanks LDB. It has to have Line-in & Line-out as opposed to Mic & headphone. I'd suggest that shipping it would cost more than just buying one since it would be an overseas shipment correct?.

Well Rich, it does have line in and 5.1 line outs, unfortunately they're 1/8" mini jacks. Yer probs right bout the shippin' tho.

[audio amateur]

I'll be in the US in a month and was hoping to buy an SPL meter while I'm at it. Can I simply go to any Radio Shack store and buy one? If so, how much is it and would a be a good choice?

[Rich-n-Texas]

The model number of the Radio Shack SPL meter I got is 33-4050. This is the analog readout style, and you can use the correction table from the Home Theater Shack site to compensate for this el-cheapo meter when you're taking the measurements.

I ordered mine online, FYI.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here are the results of my first attempt. I'm including the settings for the five filters because I really don't understand why I got the results I did, so maybe by including them, someone can explain this graph to me.

Filter #1: Freq = 20Hz - Setting + Fine = 20+0 - BW = 55/60 - Gain = -15

Filter #2: Freq = 38,3Hz - Setting + Fine = 40-4 - BW = 30/60 - Gain = -15

Filter #3: Freq = 50Hz - Setting + Fine = 50+0 - BW = 20/60 - Gain = -8

Filter #4: Freq = 80Hz - Setting + Fine = 80+0 - BW = 20/60 - Gain = -15

Filter #5: Freq = 110Hz - Setting + Fine = 100+8 - BW = 10/60 - Gain = -5

It's still not quite clicking in my head how the bandwidth settings are made and how they effect the response curve, even though kex has explained it to me every which way but Sunday. :mad2:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/BFDSetupRev1.jpg

Your help in this matter is highly anticipated and appreciated. :cornut:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I watched a movie last night with a DTS-HD sound track, and as expected (I assume), the sub output was down. I experimented by switching the BFD into bypass, and while the lows picked up a bit, it still didn't seem to have the same impact as previously when I used Dark Night as a reference, so I'm blaming it on the rental (Saw IV). I still have to readjust the volume on the sub's amp to get it level-matched with the other speakers, so last night's tryout was just preliminary.

[GMichael]

It looks like a good start to me Rich. It was expected that your overall output would be down. You had to lower the output of all the frequencies around your dip at 45 to get a flatter response. You can turn up the master volume on your sub to bring it back up to where you like. Now you should be able to hear more of the 45 htz than before, while the rest are under control.
I would guess that there is still more you could tweek though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks GM and I agree. That 45 Hz dip, while not as dramatic anymore could use some boost. When I tried to boost that range previously, the actual gain seemed to occur at about 54Hz and took that 56Hz peak through the stratosphere so I quickly removed it.

I was calibrating with the sub's volume at about 1/3 so yeah, I have plenty of wiggle room.

[GMichael]

Thanks GM and I agree. That 45 Hz dip, while not as dramatic anymore could use some boost. When I tried to boost that range previously, the actual gain seemed to occur at about 54Hz and took that 56Hz peak through the stratosphere so I quickly removed it.

I was calibrating with the sub's volume at about 1/3 so yeah, I have plenty of wiggle room.

You could have some room canceling going on. (That whole node, mode or whatever thingy) If so, then I think that all your boosting at 45 will do no good other than to boost everything around it. Did you put those panels up yet?

[Rich-n-Texas]

You could have some room canceling going on. (That whole node, mode or whatever thingy) If so, then I think that all your boosting at 45 will do no good other than to boost everything around it. Did you put those panels up yet?
Umm... well, I, uhhhh... :o

I've got four more panels to assemble, and two of those pre-made designer frabric panels to hang, so while I'm hanging a new ceiling fan this weekend...

So would you say I'm at a good stopping point for now, and that I should continue to treat the room? I realize that the panels won't directly affect the sub frequencies, but dumbing down the reflections at higher frequencies is still a good thing to do. The walls are still essentially bare.

[GMichael]

Umm... well, I, uhhhh... :o

I've got four more panels to assemble, and two of those pre-made designer frabric panels to hang, so while I'm hanging a new ceiling fan this weekend...

So would you say I'm at a good stopping point for now, and that I should continue to treat the room? I realize that the panels won't directly affect the sub frequencies, but dumbing down the reflections at higher frequencies is still a good thing to do. The walls are still essentially bare.

Stopping? What are the odds of that?

Bare walls are not your friends. Once you put up those panels, you may have different readings. I'd think that you'd be better off setting those up before you finish tweeking the BFD. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't pump up the volume a little first.:thumbsup:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Actually I did increase the sub's volume last night after the movie, and I'll take some time tonite to match it up to the rest of the speakers. Then I'll play that sequence from Dark Night again and adjust the sub accordingly. (Edit: Wait a minute, I wonder if changing the sub out volume at the receiver will change the readings :idea: )
BTW, I just bought this: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCA202.aspx ($39) so I can start using the REW s/w. :ihih:

[GMichael]

HMMmmm... Very interesting. I've saved that link now. Tanx.

I think I remember Kex and/or LJ saying that turning the volume up on the sub is better than changing the receiver's LFE output level. Something about headroom, distortion or such.

[L.J.]

Yeah you adjust the volume from the sub. Once the AVR sub output is set, you leave it alone.

Rich, what's the problem with your response? Looks like your doing a good job. Bump up the volume to match the rest of your speakers. Actually, my sub is probably bumped 3-4 db above the rest of my system.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Will do L.J. :thumbsup:

Did I read on PSN at your avatar where you were going on vacation again? Couple days later it said: AAAAAAAHHHHHHH. :sosp:

[L.J.]

Will do L.J. :thumbsup:

Did I read on PSN at your avatar where you were going on vacation again? Couple days later it said: AAAAAAAHHHHHHH. :sosp:

Had a fight with some family members and I was pissed. I'm all better now :ciappa:

[GMichael]

Hey LJ,

How's it going? Sorry that I couldn't write more the other day. I was in the middle of a race and no one would wait for me.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Finish MGS4 yet L.J.? :p

[Rich-n-Texas]

HMMmmm... Very interesting. I've saved that link now. Tanx.
Forgot to mention... that was the Parts Express price. Their part number is 248-599.

[GMichael]

Cool. Tanx again.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Ya know I haven't seen much of kex-o-matic recently. Hope he didn't slip on a hockey puck and land on his laptop! :eek6:

[Woochifer]

Looks like you've done a great job with working around that huge frequency cancellation. As LJ said, just boost the levels so that they're about 4 db higher than the mains, and you'll have a very high impact home theater experience. The whole point of doing the equalization is to eliminate the big peaks and valleys, and allow you to more accurately set the levels. With an unequalized sub, the wideband SPL meter reading will often be skewed by the peaks or cancellations. In the worst cases (like mine before installing the BFD), you wind up with anemic bass accompanied by occasional ringing notes that rattle your head. With the flatter response curve, you get fuller and tighter bass that's free from boominess.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Wooch, do you think that overall my sub level is too low? Right now I'm watching Roger Water's "In The Flesh" and after setting it's level using the receiver's pink noise tones; the sub's amp is turned all the way up, I'm not hearing bass like I was hearing before setting up the BFD.

I have Master and Commander and I'm going to watch it on Saturday, so I expect the LFE response will be better, but right now with "In the Flesh", with a DD soundtrack, I'm a bit dissapointed.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, do you think that overall my sub level is too low? Right now I'm watching Roger Water's "In The Flesh" and after setting it's level using the receiver's pink noise tones; the sub's amp is turned all the way up, I'm not hearing bass like I was hearing before setting up the BFD.

I have Master and Commander and I'm going to watch it on Saturday, so I expect the LFE response will be better, but right now with "In the Flesh", with a DD soundtrack, I'm a bit dissapointed.

Of course you're not hearing bass like you used to, because you don't want to hear the same bass as before. You want BETTER bass, and a flat-EQ'd signal sounds a lot better.

If you haven't adjusted the overall level since measuring out that plot graph, then you definitely need to adjust it upward. If your amp has a two-channel L/R input, then you should get a line splitter and use it to split the subwoofer signal and use both the L and R input. That kind of signal coupling on a two-channel sub input will increase the output by 6 db.

Also, on the back of the BFD, there's a output switch that alters the output by 14 db. Generally, the recommendation is to leave the button pushed in (-10 db), but if you're already pushing the amp to max, then you might want to try it in the "studio" setting (+4 db).

You should also use your receiver to boost the subwoofer output. The overall level should be about 4 db higher than the mains, and with EQ'd bass, that will give you plenty of low end.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Of course you're not hearing bass like you used to, because you don't want to hear the same bass as before. You want BETTER bass, and a flat-EQ'd signal sounds a lot better.
Understood. I should've remembered that from previous BFD discussions.

If you haven't adjusted the overall level since measuring out that plot graph, then you definitely need to adjust it upward. If your amp has a two-channel L/R input, then you should get a line splitter and use it to split the subwoofer signal and use both the L and R input. That kind of signal coupling on a two-channel sub input will increase the output by 6 db.
Yes it does and yes I do. I was paying attention during that lesson. :smilewinkgrin:

I'll plot my latest graph with my sub's level at max later, but I have a new problem. After running the frequency sweep with the sub at max, I heard what I thought was the fan on the FiOS STB humming... nope. I did some troubleshooting including plugging the sub into a different outlet as well as plugging the BFD into another outlet, but each time when I turned the volume up on the sub, the hum was still present. When I put the BFD in "Bypass" the level decreased somewhat, but it wasn't until I removed the cables from the BFD and connected them together with an adapter, thus physically bypassing it, that the hum stopped. I think I've got a ground loop so next step is to work on eliminating that problem.


Also, on the back of the BFD, there's a output switch that alters the output by 14 db. Generally, the recommendation is to leave the button pushed in (-10 db), but if you're already pushing the amp to max, then you might want to try it in the "studio" setting (+4 db).
Okay, but I'll first try your suggestion below after I work on my hummmmmmmm. :mad2:


You should also use your receiver to boost the subwoofer output. The overall level should be about 4 db higher than the mains, and with EQ'd bass, that will give you plenty of low end.
For some reason I thought that adjusting the sub level at the receiver would exagerate the peaks and nulls. Guess not.

[L.J.]

Yeah that smooth bass takes a couple of days to get use too.

Wooch said it perfectly. I couldn't set my level correctly in the past due to the huge peaks I had. I was shocked at how much I could increase the sub's volume after it was EQ'd. The smooth bass blends well with the rest of your system and you should have no clue that the bass is coming from your sub. Basically, I'm saying that your sub should be invisible once your all finished.

[GMichael]

Rich,

Are you runing the AVR's "pink noise" before or after turning your sub up? You should have the sub set below half power when runing the set-up, and then turn it up as needed after.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I ran the pink noise test after setting up the filters. The level at the sub was at max and I was still 2dB lower than all other speakers that were at 70dB SPL (Dolby recommendation).

To get 70dB on all speakers I set the receiver volume to -5dB reference. When running the sub EQ test tones, I used -18dB receiver reference since that's about the level I was at when I was playing a movie to get the sub's output to just this side of clipping when the BFD was in bypass. Yes, the amp gets turned off when I'm running the sub's test tones, which BTW reside on the PS3 now.

[L.J.]

Hey LJ,

How's it going? Sorry that I couldn't write more the other day. I was in the middle of a race and no one would wait for me.

Hey what's up GM? Sorry I missed this. Everything is going great with me. I'm losing weight, my marriage has hit a new level, I have a killer sound system and my 10 year old is an honor roll student :thumbsup: I gotta say that I'm happy and I'm enjoying life right now.

Now if I could only get my 3 year old to use the freakin' toilet :mad2:

[Rich-n-Texas]

This is what someone I work with recommended I use for my ground loop problem:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214&tab=summary

I should plug this thing in-line between the BFD and the sub. The problem I have is I'm introducing more connection points including another adapter since both in & out are male ends, and I'm also losing shielding due to those scrawny wires. The other thing, I'll only be using one side (i.e. red to red) so I wonder what issues might occur with the other two unterminated connectors. :idea:

[Woochifer]

Hey what's up GM? Sorry I missed this. Everything is going great with me. I'm losing weight, my marriage has hit a new level, I have a killer sound system and my 10 year old is an honor roll student :thumbsup: I gotta say that I'm happy and I'm enjoying life right now.

Glad to hear that things are going well. :thumbsup:


Now if I could only get my 3 year old to use the freakin' toilet :mad2:

Well, my (almost) two-year old has taken to using her potty as a hat! :shocked: AND she thinks it's funny when she tries putting her "hat" on daddy's head. Fortunately, she hasn't figured out how to use the potty for its intended purpose, so we've had no accidents ... so far! :ihih:

[GMichael]

Glad to hear that things are going well. :thumbsup:



Well, my (almost) two-year old has taken to using her potty as a hat! :shocked: AND she thinks it's funny when she tries putting her "hat" on daddy's head. Fortunately, she hasn't figured out how to use the potty for its intended purpose, so we've had no accidents ... so far! :ihih:

Two? TWO!? It's been two years already? Time sure is picking up steam.

[Rich-n-Texas]

YO! What about ME?!?!?! WTF???

Should I buy that RS thingy or not? :incazzato:

[Luvin Da Blues]

YO! What about ME?!?!?! WTF???

Should I buy that RS thingy or not? :incazzato:


Well Rich, if you gone thru all the basic steps to get rid of this hum then you may not have any choice. At that price, I would give it a try.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The cheapest and easiest fix would be to just use a cheater plug, but that's against the rules in my house. At HomeTheaterShack they recommend one that costs $59 bucks and another one that's like $40... no thanks.

[L.J.]

Let us know what you do Rich.....lol. Being a test dummy is pretty hard but we appreciate your efforts :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Being a test dummy isn't hard, it's (kind of) expensive.

BTW, I'm expecting my Behringer sound card today.

[GMichael]

Being a test dummy isn't hard, it's (kind of) expensive.

BTW, I'm expecting my Behringer sound card today.

It's a good thing you are rich.

[GMichael]

Maybe he is writing a very long post.

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's a good thing you are rich.
:mad2: :cryin: :mad2: :cryin: :mad2: :cryin:

:crazy:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Why the frick is kex in this thread but not posting?!?!?! :incazzato:

[Rich-n-Texas]

There goes that time warp thingy again. :out:

Actually, IIRC he's shown as being in this thread for more than a week. I haven't seen him post anywhere else so I hope all is well.

[L.J.]

So what's up....you throw your BFD in the garbage yet :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

No knucklehead! I'm dealing with "the dreaded hum" problem. I tried an isolation transformer between the BFD out and the sub in with no change, and it looks like the discussion on HTS has turned to an XLR to RCA cable adaptation. Seems to me the experts over there underestimated this problem. I haven't read the latest 'cause I've been stewing over my new car for the past 3 weeks. :cryin: