Expensive or Insane? Where to draw the line. [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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emaidel
02-15-2009, 05:30 AM
Here's a good question: just where does one draw the line on price on audio gear? At which point does the price tag on a piece of equipment soar so high into the stratosophere that few tangible benefits exist to justify its price tag?

It's certainly been a very, very long time since I set foot into an audio retailer - there aren't that many anywhere near me to even try! - but, when I look at the prices on certain pieces of gear, I simply raise my eyebrows and wonder, "Who in his right mind would ever spend that much?"

$30,000 for a set of two 12' speaker cables? $3,800 for a 1/2 meter coax interconnect? $15,000 for a phono cartridge? While these prices go far beyond what most people would spend, there is one area that manages to sit all by itself in terms mind-numbing prices, and that's in audiophile turntables, especially those under the ClearAudio brand. $150,000 for a turntable? And without a cartridge? Are you f.....ing kidding me?

Years ago, when I heard the B&W Nautilus speaker, driven by Mark Levinson tri-amp electronics, I thought I'd heard the best sounding system ever. When I heard that the speakers were $38,000, and the amplification was just under $100,000, my enthusiasm waned considerably. Just how many people can actually afford to pay so much money for equipment?

That was well over 10 years ago, and I'm sure the pricetag on those items has increased significantly. Still, the ClearAudio $150,000 turntable (sans cartridge) stands at the very top of the heap in terms of products priced well into the realm of sheer insanity. It may be the "best" turntable ever made, but I'd like to know who would actually pay $150,000 for something that takes up almost an entire room just to play records? I'd be curious to know...

jrhymeammo
02-15-2009, 06:02 AM
I'm suprised to read this from a person who used to be a VP of Marking department.

Those flagship products are used to display their technology to the consumers who will ultimately purchase their entry-level products, such as the Emotion, Solution, and Champion. But instead, we ought to be grateful that they offer $150K turntable cuz 99% of learned techs and gizmo are trickled down to their $3000 TT. If anything, the Statement is just a prototype they chose to sell.

Ajani
02-15-2009, 06:08 AM
Here's a good question: just where does one draw the line on price on audio gear? At which point does the price tag on a piece of equipment soar so high into the stratosophere that few tangible benefits exist to justify its price tag?

It's certainly been a very, very long time since I set foot into an audio retailer - there aren't that many anywhere near me to even try! - but, when I look at the prices on certain pieces of gear, I simply raise my eyebrows and wonder, "Who in his right mind would ever spend that much?"

$30,000 for a set of two 12' speaker cables? $3,800 for a 1/2 meter coax interconnect? $15,000 for a phono cartridge? While these prices go far beyond what most people would spend, there is one area that manages to sit all by itself in terms mind-numbing prices, and that's in audiophile turntables, especially those under the ClearAudio brand. $150,000 for a turntable? And without a cartridge? Are you f.....ing kidding me?

Years ago, when I heard the B&W Nautilus speaker, driven by Mark Levinson tri-amp electronics, I thought I'd heard the best sounding system ever. When I heard that the speakers were $38,000, and the amplification was just under $100,000, my enthusiasm waned considerably. Just how many people can actually afford to pay so much money for equipment?

That was well over 10 years ago, and I'm sure the pricetag on those items has increased significantly. Still, the ClearAudio $150,000 turntable (sans cartridge) stands at the very top of the heap in terms of products priced well into the realm of sheer insanity. It may be the "best" turntable ever made, but I'd like to know who would actually pay $150,000 for something that takes up almost an entire room just to play records? I'd be curious to know...

Millionaires...

I long ago stopped being concerned about the point of diminishing returns on audio gear... as I finally realized that value for money is too subjective to debate.... For me, a good $1K - $2K speaker might be that point at which better is not worth the extra money, while for someone else that price might be $10K -$12K... and for a non-audiophile that price point might be $100 - $200....

bubbagump
02-15-2009, 06:08 AM
If I could point to once experience that served as a wake-up call, it would have been about twelve years ago in a local high-end audio dealer. He had several dedicated listening rooms with an ever changing rotation of gear. I listened to a California Audio Labs cd player and dac combo (about 14K for the pair at the time), Hales speakers, and external amplification. I don't remember what the amplification was but they were huge monoblocs, probably by Krell. The experience was completely underwhelming. The sound was lean, not particularly dynamic or realisitic. There could be many reasons for this and I'm oversimplifying but my point is the quallity of even low cost audio gear has become so good over the years that there is no longer any reason to have to spend tens of thousands on gear. Mid-range gear from the big-box stores can get you to the point of diminishing returns very quickly. As for cables, don't get me started. Digital cables (coax, toslink, dvi, hdmi...), they either work or they don't. That's the beauty of digital. If cables are made to a spec and you use them per manufacturer recommendations, you're golden. Some of the off brands can be a little sketchy from a materials and assembly standpoint but it's absolutely unecessary to spend anything more than bargain basement cash on cables. Always buy your cables online. The mark-up in most brick and mortar stores is insane. Speaker cables are another rip-off. If you use the proper guage for the length of your run, you're good. When putting together a system, the most important factors in sound quality are room acoustics, the quality of the recording or audio source, speakers and your frame of mind. Beyond a certain basic level, everything else is of low importance.

RoyY51
02-15-2009, 07:23 AM
A guy is showing his friend his new invention...the friend agrees that it is truly amazing. The friend then asks what the price will be for this marvel. The inventor says: "A million dollars". The friend says: "A million dollars? You're not going to sell many at that price!" The inventor says: "That's OK...I only have to sell one!"

Maybe ClearAudio and others have adopted the same business model.

Ajani
02-15-2009, 07:30 AM
A guy is showing his friend his new invention...the friend agrees that it is truly amazing. the friend then asks what the price will be for this marvel. The inventor says: "A million dollars". The friend says: "A million dollars? You're not going to sell many at that price!" The inventor says: "That's OK...I only have to sell one!"

Maybe ClearAudio and others have adopted the same business model.

Yep... that's exactly the case... essentially what JRH said....

Manufacturers often produce statement pieces which are really designed to push the limits of their design experience.... these pieces may or may not be available to the general public (if they are made available - it is often in very limited quantities that are done special order, rather than sold in a store).... The technology developed in these pieces is slowly trickled down to their more affordable products....

So you need to consider these statement pieces for what they are: R&D for the manufacturer, rather than actual consumer products....

E-Stat
02-15-2009, 08:41 AM
Here's a good question: just where does one draw the line on price on audio gear?
Why must a line be drawn? Statement products are imaginative answers to the question "What if?" While production quantities of any such item are necessarily limited, they usually have no difficulty finding buyers despite the price of admission. All 349 Ferrari Enzos were sold before production even began. While the *list* price of them was only about $650k, they actually sold for around $1M. Such products are fundamentally about exhilaration. I confess that I enjoy twisting the throttle on my Honda ST1300 (with similar 0-60 times) to redline every now and again for that acceleration rush.


It may be the "best" turntable ever made, but I'd like to know who would actually pay $150,000 for something that takes up almost an entire room just to play records? I'd be curious to know...
While they do weigh nearly eight hundred pounds, they really don't require much more floor space than other turntable. And they are simply gorgeous up close and personal. Nudging the massive suspension to see it freely gimbal is quite satisfying. Beyond the superb functional qualities (in the $500k review system they were used), they are works of mechanical art.

Are the audible differences worth the investment? Who knows? Such is a question I will never need to answer directly. As for me, I just enjoy the privilege of hearing spectacular components like that. :)

rw

Feanor
02-15-2009, 11:43 AM
Here's a good question: just where does one draw the line on price on audio gear? At which point does the price tag on a piece of equipment soar so high into the stratosophere that few tangible benefits exist to justify its price tag?
...

I've always had a modest income and I'll soon be retiring to an even modester income. For me a $2500 component will be about as unattainable as a $25,000, and about as insane given my meager budget.

Nevertheless I might concede that a pair of Magneplanar 3.6R speakers and a Pass Labs INT-150 integrated amp are pretty good value, just too expensive for me to actually afford. But finding value in $150k speakers and $200k amplification is difficult to conceive. (Beside those speakers wouldn't fit in my listening room. ;)) On the other hand if I were a bank CEO wondering what to do with his bailout-funded bonus, that level of expenditure might seem indepensible for good listening.

Auricauricle
02-15-2009, 12:19 PM
Roy, your story reminds me....A guy buys a yacht, and when he takes it out on sea-trials, he finds the engine a catastrophe. He calls around and finally gets a fellow who agrees to come over and give the thing a look. After about five minutes, the guy pulls a hammer out of his pocket and gives the engine block a solid whack. The engine runs even better than before. The amazed boat owner says, "How much?" to which the mechanic replaies, "$20,000.00". When the boat owner quits sputtering, he asks the mechanis to explain his rationale.

Answer: Cost of repair: $10.00. Of knowing why, where and how to proceed: $10,990.00.

bobsticks
02-15-2009, 01:40 PM
Something to consider as well, is that most of big rigs you see are the product of many years of trading up. Does anyone actually spend 150k on a turntable without some trade-in or wheelin' 'n' dealin'?

But I do agree at some point the hobby crosses over over into obsession which is okay too if you're Feanor's banking buddy, lol. Check out this guy on the 'Gon. I think I remember seeing that the table for the rockport was some neutron microscope stand that costs like 150k. Crazy but, hey, you can't take it with you.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020

E-Stat
02-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Check out this guy on the 'Gon. I think I remember seeing that the table for the rockport was some neutron microscope stand that costs like 150k. Crazy but, hey, you can't take it with you.
Mike Lavigne is pretty well known over at AA. Actually his Rockport Sirius uses its own air suspension stand that went for merely $74k while still in production. The most impressive of all his components is the completely custom sound room built in a former barn designed by Rives Audio.

As for aftermarket stands to which you refer, a reviewer friend had two active Halcyonics (http://halcyonics.com/en/products/micro.php) microscopy isolation platforms for a while. He used the larger one for an EAR turntable and the smaller one with an EMM Labs CD-SA player. You'd hear an explosive bass note and watch the Halcyonics display indicate the active mechanism had clamped the vibration. :)

rw

bobsticks
02-15-2009, 02:43 PM
As for aftermarket stands to which you refer, a reviewer friend had two Halcyon (http://halcyonics.com/en/products/micro.php) microscopy isolation platforms for a while. He used the larger one for an EAR turntable and the smaller one with an EMM Labs CD-SA player. You'd hear an explosive bass note and watch the Halcyon's display indicate the active mechanism had clamped the vibration. :)

rw

I think even the most jaded among us would have to admit...crazy or not, that's pretty cool.

Luvin Da Blues
02-15-2009, 03:06 PM
"How much?" to which the mechanic replaies, "$20,000.00". When the boat owner quits sputtering, he asks the mechanis to explain his rationale.

Answer: Cost of repair: $10.00. Of knowing why, where and how to proceed: $10,990.00.


$10.00 + $10,990.00 = $11,000.00. :confused5: What's the other $9,000.00 for??? :lol:

emaidel
02-15-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm suprised to read this from a person who used to be a VP of Marking department.

.


At all the various companies I worked for, unless we had outrageous sums of money we chose to waste on the engineering, design, development and manufacturing of a "statement" product, we'd use those funds instead for products people would actually buy and use.

When I first joined BSR (who owned ADC and dbx at the time), I was horrified to realize the amount of design and engineering $$$ that were spent/wasted on the development of the dbx Soundfield one loudspeaker. Regardless of how successful that speaker was (and it wasn't), none of the sales of it, or any of the other speakers in the dbx lineup ever justified the initial expense. While the concept of "soundfield imaging" was novel (a perfect stereo image anyplace in the room, including next to and behind either of the two speakers), the world simply wasn't clamoring for such a design concept and reacted to it with a huge yawn. dbx never recovered that money.

I would have to feel much the same towards a $150,000 turntable, unless the manufacturing cost of that turntable were a mere fraction of its purported selling price.

Arguably, the Mercedes S-500 is one of the finest automobiles made in the world. It offers one of the quietest, and most serene rides of any car manufactured anywhere, along with a combination of driver/automobile involvement that has few peers. The fit and finish of the car is flawless, and it's a stunning looking car as well. Last time I looked, a reasonably equipped S-500 sold for just over $72,000. Fully loaded models were in the high $80,000's. One could purchase two of these 'statement" vehicles for the price of the ClearAudio turntable. That's something I just can't accept, though I can understand why others can.

RoyY51
02-15-2009, 03:29 PM
$10.00 + $10,990.00 = $11,000.00. :confused5: What's the other $9,000.00 for??? :lol:
It's going to Washington to help bail out the auto makers. There's a recession, you know.

emaidel
02-15-2009, 04:24 PM
I once read a book called, "The Fourth Procedure." It was a story about a supreme court judge who had the swing vote in a decision on an abortion case, and if he were to vote in the conservative direction as he customarily did, Roe v. Wade would have been nullified, and abortion would once again be illegal in any and all circumstances. A parallel story line involved a crazed woman doctor who used homeless men as guinea pigs in her experiments in which she implanted human embryos in these men to prove that a man, as well as a woman, could carry a child to term, but, of course, not be able to deliver the baby without surgery. Not surprisingly, all of her "patients" died.

She was also this judge's doctor, and after performing surgery on him for an unlrelated issue, he was complaining about severe abdominal pain. She informed him that she had implanted an embryo inside him, and that he was pregnant. Horrified, the judge demanded that the embryo be removed, but the doctor responded with, "But judge, that's abortion, isn't it?"

Ultimately, the embryo was removed, the mad doctor arrested for murder, and the judge issued his ruling - contrary to what he initially thought. His final words were something to this effect: "While I remain intrinisically, and morally opposed to abortion, I've come to realize that there are others with differing opinions."

That's how I feel about this $150,000 turntable. While nothing has changed my mind that it's just plain nucking futs, I realize that others disagree, and I fully accept that they are as entitled to their opinions as I am to mine.

Feanor
02-15-2009, 05:20 PM
...
But I do agree at some point the hobby crosses over over into obsession which is okay too if you're Feanor's banking buddy, lol. Check out this guy on the 'Gon. I think I remember seeing that the table for the rockport was some neutron microscope stand that costs like 150k. Crazy but, hey, you can't take it with you.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020

See more of Mike's setup (http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html) over at Audio Asylum.

The Transparent Opus speaker cables you see are well north of $30k the pair.

E-Stat
02-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Last time I looked, a reasonably equipped S-500 sold for just over $72,000. Fully loaded models were in the high $80,000's.
The *entry* level one is now $89k and the high end S65 is $198k. Now, if you want the top-of-the-line Mercedes product, that would be the Maybach S62 S which goes for a cool $432k.

rw

audio amateur
02-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Arguably, the Mercedes S-500 is one of the finest automobiles made in the world. It offers one of the quietest, and most serene rides of any car manufactured anywhere, along with a combination of driver/automobile involvement that has few peers. The fit and finish of the car is flawless, and it's a stunning looking car as well. Last time I looked, a reasonably equipped S-500 sold for just over $72,000. Fully loaded models were in the high $80,000's. One could purchase two of these 'statement" vehicles for the price of the ClearAudio turntable. That's something I just can't accept, though I can understand why others can.
Pardon me asking, but what is so exceptional about an S500? If anything, the S65 AMG is better and although neither of them aren't fine, I wouldn't classify them as part of the finest.

emesbee
02-15-2009, 06:28 PM
Insane is where you spend more than you can afford on something. Expensive is where you can afford it, but you think twice before spending.

elapsed
02-15-2009, 08:12 PM
$150K for the ClearAudio? That's a bargain. Try the $300,000 Goldmund Reference II.

But in all honesty, I'm pretty jaded now when it comes to hifi... I've heard $10,000 systems outperform $100,000 systems in the same store. When you start spending this type of money, I really begin to wonder if the owner even listens to music, or if they spend all of their time analyzing test patterns and tweaking their system. Just imagine the music collection you could build instead for a fraction of this cost.

cheers,
elapsed

audio amateur
02-16-2009, 03:06 AM
$150K for the ClearAudio? That's a bargain. Try the $300,000 Goldmund Reference II.

But in all honesty, I'm pretty jaded now when it comes to hifi... I've heard $10,000 systems outperform $100,000 systems in the same store. When you start spending this type of money, I really begin to wonder if the owner even listens to music, or if they spend all of their time analyzing test patterns and tweaking their system. Just imagine the music collection you could build instead for a fraction of this cost.

cheers,
elapsed
I can only say I mirror everything in this post.

RoadRunner6
02-16-2009, 03:09 AM
Great thread Emaidel.

For me, being quite income challenged, the line between expensive and insanely expensive is quite low. The point of diminishing returns sets in quickly and drops like a logarithmic cliff.

I frequently spend as much time finding bargains as I do evaluating equipment. My Technics SL-QD33 turntable with Shure M111HE cartridge cost me about $250 total about 25 years ago or so on a great closout deal. To my ears it still sounds excellent with my Sheffield Labs direct to disc Thelma Houston and Pressure Cooker album I've Got The Music In Me. (I even have a new Shure M111HE I bought many years ago for when the current one grows old).

Would it match the sound of the Clear Audio unit? No, I am sure it would not. Would friends in my living room think the sound of the Clear Audio table with appropriate cartridge sounded $149,750 better than my Technics/Shure combo. No, I am sure they would not. In fact, I would bet my new Dell computer that they would only hear a slight improvement to their ears.

For me I would currently put the PODR (point of diminishing returns ... remember I am patient and usually wait for great online deals) for a 5.1 system with regular dynamic cone speakers and TV in a medium sized room at about:

Turntable and cartridge: $395

Universal player BD player: $499 (arrival soon)

8-track player: $25 (out of stock)

Power Amp (5 ch): $799

Pre-Pro: $699 (arrival soon)

Subwoofer: $949

Speakers (5.0): $1866

50" flat panel TV: $1792

Here we have a 5.1 system with a 50" THX plasma, turntable w/cartridge, CD/SACD/DVD/BD player, 5ea - 4 ohm timbre matched speakers and powered sub, power amp - 350 watts x 5ch/4 ohms/all channels driven, pre-pro with everything on it. Total cost excluding accessories = $6999.

Properly set-up, I believe this system will outperform many systems costing far more and give up only a small difference in audio and video performance advantage to the very best.

I'll be happy to divulge my picks of individual components if anyone is interested, guesses incouraged. (anyone guessing all components correctly wins a free trip to DizzyLand ... this is not that difficult folks if you have followed any of my previous posts ... the 5 speakers will be the hard one)

RR6 :thumbsup:

RGA
02-16-2009, 07:00 AM
Price and performance is always something people have to decide for themselves. I agree with any poster who scoffs at the high prices of audio gear based on the "I heard a $5k system beat a $50k system."

Everyone goes by their personal experience and most everyone I talk to has heard the $5k system beat the $50k system. However, I don't base everything on single examples and in the end I have heard a lot more $50k systems beat anything I've heard at $5k. Just because something is $50k doesn't mean it's any good, or made up of gear that is a good match.

Value is relative - one person's $100k is like you or I spending $1 on a pack of gum.

The best speaker I have heard is a two way stand mount box with a Paper woofer foam surround and a 1 inch silk dome tweeter with a retail price of a jaw dropping $39,000. It is nicely finished has external crossovers but it's not something that scream $39k. Except the sound.

And that is the hard thing to "get" - the point for me is audio reproduction - in "my" case it is the best sound I have heard - and like anything in the "best" camp it costs a lot of coin. Granted just like cars you may prefer a Lotus to a Ferrari but they're both miles better than a Honda Civic. And just like the $5k is better than a $50k stereo you may prefer the Honda Civic to Pontiac Grand Prix at twice the price. (I do and so does the Lemon-Aid). But it ain't no Bentley.

When I get back to Canada I may have a chance to audition a two channel system approaching a half million dollars. I heard it in a $250,000 version and it was far and away the best system I've ever auditoned. The new turntable, speaking of turntables, runs at over $35,000 British Pounds (`$75,000US) Without cartridge, step up transformer for the cartridge or wiring. I am quite excited to hear such a statement turntable - the guy's last turntable was already the best I had heard from any source of any kind. http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/HFC10_AN.pdf

Can I justify that price - no - but if you have the money and you're willing to spend that sum on a turntable - I guess the question becomes - why do you need to? Money is no longer a viable concern - it's a "non-issue" for those folks. Lucky them.:23:

audio amateur
02-16-2009, 07:11 AM
Value is relative - one person's $100k is like you or I spending $1 on a pack of gum.

I should hope there aren't too many of those..

Feanor
02-16-2009, 07:57 AM
I should hope there aren't too many of those..

There are more very affluent people than must of us would like to believe. A recent statistic I heard was that in "The City", (London, England's financial district), 4000 people earned over a million £, (US$1.45M), last year, a bit of down year, and a good many of those much over a million.

I agree with RGA that value is totally in the eye of the beholders and bears no relationship to nominal price.

audio amateur
02-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Yes.. London is home to some filthy rich people. A brief look at the cars you come by in the city center supports this

GMichael
02-16-2009, 08:18 AM
When the cost of the system exceeds the tangent of your audio desire factor divided by the cosine of your annual income, then you've spent too much.

Auricauricle
02-16-2009, 11:22 AM
If I listen to a piece of music I like and the hairs on my head are prickled, I know that I have all I need....

RoadRunner6
02-16-2009, 01:10 PM
Aa, you mean like this?

Auricauricle
02-16-2009, 01:17 PM
LOL!!!! Yeah, gets a little like that when the Beethoven's on....

Ajani
02-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Insane is where you spend more than you can afford on something. Expensive is where you can afford it, but you think twice before spending.

:thumbsup:

I totally agree with this definition...

Hyfi
02-17-2009, 11:46 AM
I think it's mostly a matter of do you have the money to blow or not. While some of these high priced pcs of equipment do sound fabulous, they do not sound $xxxx times better. Case in point, I recently got my hands on a VAC CLA-1 MKII pre-amp. This unit listed for $6500 when new. I swapped it for my Sound Valves 101i which cost me $550 when new. Yes the VAC sounds a whole lot better but it's hard to say that it sounds 10 times better.

I have also heard many of the high priced components when Soundex was still around. I heard the Grand Utopias, Dynaudio Arbitor system and all the other outrageously expensive gear they sold.

Some of the above systems totaled close to $400,000 including MIT cabling that looked like vacuum cleaner hoses. Again, It is too hard to say that they sounded 40 times better than my $10k system. Better? For sure, but not worth the money unless you have it to waste.

Deadeye
02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Hyfi has it right. I used to visit Soundex and listen to some of the megabuck gear. 10 or 20 times better than my rig? I think not. That said, some Apogee Grands or Infinity IRS's would be nice. Of course I'd have to move to larger dig's but if I could afford them, larger digs should be no problem.

jrhymeammo
02-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Hyfi has it right. I used to visit Soundex and listen to some of the megabuck gear. 10 or 20 times better than my rig? I think not. That said, some Apogee Grands or Infinity IRS's would be nice. Of course I'd have to move to larger dig's but if I could afford them, larger digs should be no problem.


Hyfi has it right. I used to visit Soundex and listen to some of the megabuck gear. 10 or 20 times better than my rig? I think not. That said, some Apogee Grands or Infinity IRS's would be nice. Of course I'd have to move to larger dig's but if I could afford them, larger digs should be no problem.


Hyfi has it right. I used to visit Soundex and listen to some of the megabuck gear. 10 or 20 times better than my rig? I think not. That said, some Apogee Grands or Infinity IRS's would be nice. Of course I'd have to move to larger dig's but if I could afford them, larger digs should be no problem.

JOE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where the hell have you been? Good see you around, buddy. Looks like nothing has changed, except for your screen name. Whatta hell dude. We've all missed you and hope to see you around more.

Peace,

Deadeye
02-17-2009, 05:55 PM
Thank you vury vury much. It's good to be back. I couldn't get in under my old screen name. The new one is appropriate to what I've been doing.

chiefwalk3
02-17-2009, 07:02 PM
I have read a lot in this forum since joining up years ago. I never posted til recently because of the knowledgable talk. I now know that for sure the expense those of you have gone in search of the perfect sound is a wasted effort. There is no such thing no matter how intelligent the conversation in my opinion. The value I have found in the sound is in the hearing of the listener. So my $250 Boston Acoustics are great!! Expensive is over rated. To keep on paying is insane since noone can hear it but you.

Feanor
02-17-2009, 07:03 PM
Thank you vury vury much. It's good to be back. I couldn't get in under my old screen name. The new one is appropriate to what I've been doing.

I knew I'd seen that avatar before, not to mention the SP9 MkIII.

Great to hear from you, Joe.

RGA
02-17-2009, 07:43 PM
I have to say I think the notion of "Times Better" is highly problematic.

No sound versus a boom box is infinitely better - from zero to something is the largest step we can take.

Upgrading to me takes a few forms - 1) more 2) better. If you listen to a small speaker in a line and it sounds nice enough but lacks bass - maybe you decide to pay more to get more bass. You pay X for that improvement. But maybe the bass is not great quality so you decide you want better - so you pay another X amount to get refined bass but you may lose a bit of number 1 (getting a but less bass than before but improved quality). You want that extended bass back but retain the quality you pay another X amount. And so it continues to grow - maybe you want less distortion or clearer highs so you pay another X amount.

In the end though ALL of this is just toys. Most people can be quite happy listening to music on an iPod and half way decent headphones. People buy a $1000 stereo over a $100 boom box because they want to enjoy their music a little more.

Some people choose to spend $80,000 on a turntable because it gets them more emotionally involved with the music than does a Rega P3 for $800. The 80k turntable is not 80 times better - it may not be 8 times better but percentages have NOTHING to do with it. If the $80k turntable brings the listener to a cathartic experience listening to their records and the Rega does not then the $80k turntable is worth it and the Rega is not worth it.

That's the key here. If the 5k DAC makes you enjoy your music and the $1k model does not then to me the $5k DAC is money well spent and the $1k DAC is money poorly spent - even if the difference is very subtle - a subtle difference can be far more important than a BIG difference depending on what it is that is being altered. I like several speakers that have huge frequency response alterations while two turntables may have subtle speed variations that affect frequency nominally.

Deadeye
02-17-2009, 08:35 PM
I have read a lot in this forum since joining up years ago. I never posted til recently because of the knowledgable talk. I now know that for sure the expense those of you have gone in search of the perfect sound is a wasted effort. There is no such thing no matter how intelligent the conversation in my opinion. The value I have found in the sound is in the hearing of the listener. So my $250 Boston Acoustics are great!! Expensive is over rated. To keep on paying is insane since noone can hear it but you.

You yourself can hear it. That and that alone makes it, if not sensible at least reasonable. If you think your $250 Boston Acoustics sound as good as my Acoustats I have to question your hearing. If the differences are not important to you why are you here?
Please understand, I'm not dismissing your speakers even though I have cables that cost more. However, calling those who have and will continue to spend more than you insane is rather rude.
None of us expect or look for "perfect" sound. We do try for better sound. If your inexpensive speakers satisfy your needs so be it. Just remember there are those of us who think it insane to listen on such inadequate speakers.
Try listening to a properly set up "megabuck" system before you "dis" the rest of us. If you don't think a system like that sounds better you have no business here. If you can't justify the cost versus the sound that's a different thing. Being facetious I could say "that just makes you cheap."
One last thing. None of us bought all this stuff overnight. It has been a long process of steady upgrading that in my case started in 1970.

First high end speakers (MG-1's) 1976

02audionoob
02-17-2009, 10:08 PM
I have read a lot in this forum since joining up years ago. I never posted til recently because of the knowledgable talk. I now know that for sure the expense those of you have gone in search of the perfect sound is a wasted effort. There is no such thing no matter how intelligent the conversation in my opinion. The value I have found in the sound is in the hearing of the listener. So my $250 Boston Acoustics are great!! Expensive is over rated. To keep on paying is insane since noone can hear it but you.
It's too bad you can't hear the difference between good equipment and a $250 set of Boston Acoustics speakers, but at least it's saving you money.

pixelthis
02-17-2009, 11:37 PM
Great thread Emaidel.

For me, being quite income challenged, the line between expensive and insanely expensive is quite low. The point of diminishing returns sets in quickly and drops like a logarithmic cliff.

I frequently spend as much time finding bargains as I do evaluating equipment. My Technics SL-QD33 turntable with Shure M111HE cartridge cost me about $250 total about 25 years ago or so on a great closout deal. To my ears it still sounds excellent with my Sheffield Labs direct to disc Thelma Houston and Pressure Cooker album I've Got The Music In Me. (I even have a new Shure M111HE I bought many years ago for when the current one grows old).

Would it match the sound of the Clear Audio unit? No, I am sure it would not. Would friends in my living room think the sound of the Clear Audio table with appropriate cartridge sounded $149,750 better than my Technics/Shure combo. No, I am sure they would not. In fact, I would bet my new Dell computer that they would only hear a slight improvement to their ears.

For me I would currently put the PODR (point of diminishing returns ... remember I am patient and usually wait for great online deals) for a 5.1 system with regular dynamic cone speakers and TV in a medium sized room at about:

Turntable and cartridge: $395

Universal player BD player: $499 (arrival soon)

8-track player: $25 (out of stock)

Power Amp (5 ch): $799

Pre-Pro: $699 (arrival soon)

Subwoofer: $949

Speakers (5.0): $1866

50" flat panel TV: $1792

Here we have a 5.1 system with a 50" THX plasma, turntable w/cartridge, CD/SACD/DVD/BD player, 5ea - 4 ohm timbre matched speakers and powered sub, power amp - 350 watts x 5ch/4 ohms/all channels driven, pre-pro with everything on it. Total cost excluding accessories = $6999.

Properly set-up, I believe this system will outperform many systems costing far more and give up only a small difference in audio and video performance advantage to the very best.

I'll be happy to divulge my picks of individual components if anyone is interested, guesses incouraged. (anyone guessing all components correctly wins a free trip to DizzyLand ... this is not that difficult folks if you have followed any of my previous posts ... the 5 speakers will be the hard one)

RR6 :thumbsup:

I have your turntable , or at least something similar.
Two technics, one belt, the other direct drive, one early eighties, the other late eighties.
CURRENTLY I use the direct drive model(sl-d20) and it sounds great.
Anybody with enough cash can throw money at a problem , but getting a great sound at a bargain price has always been a challenge, and IMHO more fun.
That is one of the great things about this hobby, a poorass with skill can have a pretty
good system.
You just have to know how to shop:1:

Florian
02-18-2009, 02:45 AM
Hi everyone,

i am going to add my opinion to this thread as well. I dont believe that there is a need to draw a line anywhere. Everyone has to find their own limit, either by checking their finances or their judgement. I personally think that there are more factors involved other then just "money" and that is taste and joy. I do get a kick out of it that there are possible only 16 other people in this world who have the same speaker as me. It gives me great pleasure, and for that alone i believe i would drop 10k at least. Another factor is the imense tehnical knowledge and material cost involved in it. There are aprox 300 magnets in my speaker which alone are well over 1000lbs. Then you take into consideration that the ribbons where cut by hand, stretched by hand. A Software Eng. invested many month to write down 16000 lines of code into the board computers, a company like Krell designed and built the internal amps specifically for this speaker, wrote codes for the displays and so on... all of this adds up to a huge amount of time, and material cost which has its price. Unfortunatly 85000$ in 1993 where simply not enough to make a profit for the company and they folded because of it.

Where i draw the line, and without upsetting RGA is when a company like AudioNote (Japan or UK) makes speakers which even RGA has to admit are not very expensive to be build based on material cost or craftsmanship. If the speaker would be 8k then i would tend to agree, but 40k is redicoulus! There are simply not enough components, and materials involved to justify this price. The same holds true for 100K Dynaudio speakers.

I agree that for instance, 26500$ for the Apogee DIVA does seriously not reflect the price that that speaker cost to make. Its mostly, MDF, cartboard and aluminium foil plus the magnets. Sound wise, i think its worth every penny, but so does RGA in regards to his dream 40K Audio Note speakers.

The Mercedes S500 is a great car, a car for someone with lots of money. But they do use plastic in the interior that my new Audi S4 Limo.. doesnt have. I tend to shy away from plastic parts. In those price ranges i would much favour an Audio A8, 4.2TDI Quattro, personal choice.

I of course upgraded, so i didnt pay the high price for my system all at once and i believe most do the same. E-Stat would sell his soundlabs u1 as well before buying the majestics, so he would only pay the difference in price. This is normal, but only possible with high price gear that has a following. This will not work nicely on a 300$ axiom speaker :ihih:

Anyway, sound, luxury, finesse and a seldom made product increase the price and to some it is worth it and to others it is not. The choice is yours, or not... depends on the pocket book. Right RGA ? :ciappa:

mijs
02-18-2009, 08:01 AM
I long ago stopped being concerned about the point of diminishing returns on audio gear... as I finally realized that value for money is too subjective to debate.... For me, a good $1K - $2K speaker might be that point at which better is not worth the extra money, while for someone else that price might be $10K -$12K... and for a non-audiophile that price point might be $100 - $200....


That sums up my view EXACTLY!!

RGA
02-18-2009, 08:26 AM
Like I said Florian I won't defend the extreme costs of any loudspeaker being priced at these levels. One may also question the "design" of any loudspeaker. But speakers are more than a breakdown of costs per item to resale price. There is not a single car in Toyota's line-up including Lexus that costs them more than $10k so why does the consumer pay more than $10k difference from a bottom of the line Tercel to a top of the line Lexus?

But I noted before that as with all toys, and audiophilia is just that, it boils down to the end result not what it looks like. Though I understand that mostly male buyers are in this hobby and many feel they need to compensate for small ego's by buying more power, heavier, and bigger. It takes a bit of balls to spend large on a two way box.

And frankly, for people to spend large on a two way box, it has to have something going for it because not everyone with money is stupid.

The AN E/Sec Signature is owned by Constantine Soo (editor of Dagogo.com) a man who gave up Apogees for it - and a man who could have owned the top model of pretty much every company on the planet - and instead the two way box beat out all comers (see www.dagogo.com for a list of speakers that have come through there. That deserves attention I should think. www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SIGNATURE.html

The thing is reviewer's have heard most of the stuff out there and an awful lot of them from a lot of different magazines, including me, are slowly steadily sharing the same view. And that is not a fluke. There is no question that a lot of things get great reviews and I am often seen as knocking reviews on one hand and supporting them where I see fit, but not all the reviewers are ponying up their own cash for everything they give a great review to. The editor of enjoythemusic.com and one of his writers, 2 Stereophile writers(one of whom was the resident panel guy) now own a version of the AN E, and a third recently said this

"Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for.
After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." Wes Phillips, Stereophile, January 2009 http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/

Pretty much concurring with the show reporter from 6moons.

No you don't get 16 woofers or 11,000lbs of wood or space shuttle materials or built in equalizers or omnidirectional gizmos or a speaker that is 10 feet tall. You get a roughly 70 litre box with two drivers in a plain, albeit extremely well finished, polished box.

Everytime I audition the AN E I always walk away wondering why all those makers making 500 lb speakers and 16 woofers can't do what a two way box can do - which is move me emotionally to the artist's intent. Maybe sometimes less is in fact more.

The AN E SOGON is actually the top model in the line at a whopping $125,000.00US and has more than $40,000 worth of silver alone. It has the only currently produced Alnico Tweeter to go along with a fairly rare Alnico Hemp woofer - It's the only speaker I know of that is wired with the same cable from voice coil to amplifier. This is made as a system strictly for users going all Audio Note I suspect and is more of a one off but some have been sold so far - they are wired with SOGON cabling from tone arm to speaker voice coil and every wire in between, interconnects, speaker cables, wiring in the amplifier, DAC, Transport down to their in house transformers, and soldering wire.

Maybe it is also worth considering that despite the "seemingly simple" two way box for "seemingly high prices" Audio Note can't keep up with demand while a great many of their bigger heavier more "exotic design" competitors went out of business because people came and they heard and the sound didn't "cut the mustard." Meanwhile, anyone wanting an AN E will very likely be put on a 6 month to 2 year wait list.

None of the above justifies the price - because I don't think prices need to be justified. The AN E Sogon is a one off made as part of an R&D exercise.

In the end for me price performance is a personal thing and I will not tell you or anyone else anymore what I think you should like. I will tell you why I like it and why I think it's worth listening to. But beyond that there is nothing else to say. There is no question that other speakers have "more parts" and they may even use better parts, have more bass, more treble, more staging etc etc and another etc.

But as Art Dudly said, and of course I agree it boils down to what the system does for you personally

"A note on value: Just a short while ago, I saw a thread on AudioAsylum.com suggesting that Audio Note loudspeakers must be wildly overpriced, given their very plain appearance in comparison with most other expensive speakers. One savant noted the E's lack of a grille: a notorious scheme for cost-cutting by devious manufacturers, he said. I felt as if I'd stepped into a world where an expensive car would be criticized for lacking low-profile wheels, a rear-view videocam, a spoiler, and a fancy paint job—until it occurred to me that I'd never left that world in the first place. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

A product such as this confounds a mindset such as that. In addition to the happy prospect of buying a thing that sells for less than its predecessor and sounds at least as good, the latest version of the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE offers the kind of performance that simply must be heard to be understood: more music than sound. Like its stablemates, the AN-E/SPe HE is not the sort of audio product that prompts its new owner to pull special record after special record off the shelves just to hear the bass depth on this one, the imaging specificity on that. Rather, the SPe HE is the sort of thing that will compel you to play every record you own, all the way through, without interruption—arguably because it does a better job than most of really connecting the listener with the dramatic, intellectual, and emotional intensities captured in every groove. I can't recommend it strongly enough.—Art Dudley (Stereophile http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/506an/index5.html)

Florian
02-18-2009, 10:31 AM
If you would like a contest of famous people who own Apogees and Audio Note, then i wont shy away. So far i got one Hollywood movie producer, CEO of one of the largest software companys in the world, sound designer for Disney, one White House health lawyer and a jewish lawyer with two pairs :-)

Trust me, when it comes to people with endless money.... except for me, those that i know in this hobby own Apogees ;-) I havent met one yet who owns Audio Note. But i am sure there are people with lots of money who buy those. But then again, you can buy a Audio Note-E today... not so for big Apogees. You have to be lucky to find one for sale....

Please dont use rich audio people or audio press as a way to justify your purchase. Those people are easy to get with all brands :-)

By the way, you want to see a Apogee Grand in a castle with its own pipe organ? The owner lives in Belgium...... and he lives in a castle. No kiddin! Its a cool pic....

Florian
02-18-2009, 10:36 AM
One more thing!

You always talk about the Audio Note-E speaker. I VERY highly doubt that the sound they got out of it is largely because of the speaker itself but of all the Audio Note Japan equipment. Their top of the line preamp, cables, source etc.... i heard the top of line audio note preaamp and it was ****ing good besides a too high noise floor on phono. It was right up there with the top of the line Vacuumstate preamp, CAT etc...

But for the price, it was not the best. Damn good tough! I credit most of this sound to the equipment and not to the speaker. Besides, in a room such as mine 800ft2 the small Audio Note speaker would be overstressed.

Feanor
02-18-2009, 11:23 AM
Hi everyone,

i am going to add my opinion to this thread as well. I dont believe that there is a need to draw a line anywhere. Everyone has to find their own limit, either by checking their finances or their judgement. I personally think that there are more factors involved other then just "money" and that is taste and joy. I do get a kick out of it that there are possible only 16 other people in this world who have the same speaker as me. It gives me great pleasure, and for that alone i believe i would drop 10k at least. Another factor is the imense tehnical knowledge and material cost involved in it. There are aprox 300 magnets in my speaker which alone are well over 1000lbs. Then you take into consideration that the ribbons where cut by hand, stretched by hand. A Software Eng. invested many month to write down 16000 lines of code into the board computers, a company like Krell designed and built the internal amps specifically for this speaker, wrote codes for the displays and so on... all of this adds up to a huge amount of time, and material cost which has its price. Unfortunatly 85000$ in 1993 where simply not enough to make a profit for the company and they folded because of it.

Where i draw the line, and without upsetting RGA is when a company like AudioNote (Japan or UK) makes speakers which even RGA has to admit are not very expensive to be build based on material cost or craftsmanship. If the speaker would be 8k then i would tend to agree, but 40k is redicoulus! There are simply not enough components, and materials involved to justify this price. The same holds true for 100K Dynaudio speakers.

I agree that for instance, 26500$ for the Apogee DIVA does seriously not reflect the price that that speaker cost to make. Its mostly, MDF, cartboard and aluminium foil plus the magnets. Sound wise, i think its worth every penny, but so does RGA in regards to his dream 40K Audio Note speakers.
...

Anyway, sound, luxury, finesse and a seldom made product increase the price and to some it is worth it and to others it is not. The choice is yours, or not... depends on the pocket book. Right RGA ?

I think we can agree there is not much correlation between what a thing costs to make and its MSRP. :nonod: There is even less between the cost and its value to any given buyer.

audio amateur
02-18-2009, 12:46 PM
By the way, you want to see a Apogee Grand in a castle with its own pipe organ? The owner lives in Belgium...... and he lives in a castle. No kiddin! Its a cool pic....
yes please!

E-Stat
02-18-2009, 01:14 PM
E-Stat would sell his soundlabs u1 as well before buying the majestics, so he would only pay the difference in price.
At nine feet tall, I'd have to get a bigger room first! Actually, it would be a lateral move for me. While more panel area is always good, the Majestic 945s offer a narrower 45 degree radiation angle resulting in a smaller sweet spot for the listening distance. Also, they use less rigid wooden frames as opposed to the spiked tubular steel frames of the Ultimate series.

While in Utah recently, I visited the SL factory and saw some unusual flavors under construction: a 45 degree pair of U-1s (which by design have to be wider) and another pair of standard 90 degree U-1s with shiny stainless steel frames. Naturally, if I had the space (and the budget!), I would follow Ray Kimber's approach with his triple 922s. Nothing succeeds like excess ! :)

rw

Deadeye
02-18-2009, 02:04 PM
E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

GMichael
02-18-2009, 02:15 PM
E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for? You know, the ones with those little round things in them!

That's what speakers used to look like.:idea:

E-Stat
02-18-2009, 02:34 PM
E-Stat, what are those funny little boxes for?
Good question! The pic is from one of the Rocky Mountain Audio Festivals. Although you cannot see it, what you see is half of a four channel "iso-mike" system Mr. Kimber developed. You may also recognize the EMM Labs digital front end gear, Pass Labs amps and (naturally) Kimber cable!

rw

RGA
02-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Florian

I was not comparing the AN E to Apogee and nor do I want to start a list of who owns what because in fact you can be sure that both AN and Apogee will lose. I mentioned reviewers because reviewers generally listen to more equipment than do most consumers and they usually hear them under good conditions.

The large Soundlab that E-Stat shows for example is made for a very very large room - quite obviously the AN E is not and would as you note flounder in a large listening room like that. They were not built for rooms much bigger than 25 X 25 so obviously would not be suitable for the very big room customer.

Like I said I am no longer going to try and convince people what they should like. But as a note Kondo-San died several years ago. He made very few Audio Note components and most who have auditioned both like Martin Colloms have said that the AN UK stuff is superior - he reviewed both Ongaku's. AN UK created all the digital and analog front ends with Guy Adams of Voyd - not the new TT3 but the old one.

You are correct that the front end helps but all of their front ends since the mid 1980s were designed "through" the AN E in that that was the speaker they tested everything on and the little brothers - and the Snell Type A. So whatever anyone hears in any AN amp DAC etc was very likely designed through the E.

In the end from a practical sense what you say is true. There is no point in comparing a speaker maker today making speakers people can buy with a speaker maker that went out of business many years ago and managed to sell only a handful of loudspeakers.

I am not sure of the point you are making but you may want to consider that your intended point may be perceived as the exact opposite because when I read
that a a speaker maker who can only sell a few speakers and then goes out of business because they can't sell them does not make me think they're exclusive but makes me think that "if they were any good they would have been able to 1) sell them and 2) sell enough of the rest of their speakers to stay in business. Since they could do neither that doesn't make me think they're terrific.

I am not saying anything about their sound directly - I am just saying that you might want to consider that your argument for your support of them might need a second look because rightly or wrongly that is how that argument will likely be perceived.

johnny p
02-18-2009, 05:39 PM
I think I'd rather not work 5 different jobs, and spend the extra time actually listening to music (even if it is progressive rock, for which I'll be chastised for!)

I can only imagine what Miles Davis, or Ray Charles, from their humble beginnings, would think, if they knew people spun their records on $300,000 turntables

RoadRunner6
02-18-2009, 05:49 PM
I have your turntable , or at least something similar.
Two technics, one belt, the other direct drive, one early eighties, the other late eighties.
CURRENTLY I use the direct drive model(sl-d20) and it sounds great.
Anybody with enough cash can throw money at a problem , but getting a great sound at a bargain price has always been a challenge, and IMHO more fun.
That is one of the great things about this hobby, a poorass with skill can have a pretty
good system.
You just have to know how to shop:1:

We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

Monkey Mouse
02-18-2009, 07:20 PM
The one thing about the cream of the audio equipment (the $150K TT for example) is the fact that R&D costs a fortune, materials are not made in quantity, and there are only going to be so many customers. So you get a sky high price with performance to match. I'm sure Clearaudio doesn't sell more than 10 units to customers in any given year of the $150K flagship.

But as others have said, it gets people into the dealers (if the dealers carry the flagships) and there is a definite "trickle down" effect with the technology and material.

You would have to be a multi millionare to go with the best of the best. $150K for a TT, $15K for a phono cartridge, $40K for a phono stage, preamp, amps, speakers, wires, room design & treatment, power units... Could be an easy million for the whole show. And you are going to listen to $15 CDs on it....

The point of diminishing returns is quite low, but hard to quantify...

elapsed
02-18-2009, 07:33 PM
Some people choose to spend $80,000 on a turntable because it gets them more emotionally involved with the music than does a Rega P3 for $800. The 80k turntable is not 80 times better - it may not be 8 times better but percentages have NOTHING to do with it. If the $80k turntable brings the listener to a cathartic experience listening to their records and the Rega does not then the $80k turntable is worth it and the Rega is not worth it.

That's the key here. If the 5k DAC makes you enjoy your music and the $1k model does not then to me the $5k DAC is money well spent and the $1k DAC is money poorly spent - even if the difference is very subtle - a subtle difference can be far more important than a BIG difference depending on what it is that is being altered.
I couldn't agree more.. I could argue that the point of diminishing returns for a 2-channel system is around $5,000. This bought me my original entry-level Naim system, Rega Planar 3 turntable, and a couple of small speakers, and was truly enjoyable to listen to. However, it was well worth it to me to spend several times this original budget in order to build a system that gives me a truly emotional connection to the music I'm listening to. And although the upgraded system is only perhaps 10-20% better than the original system, this was still worth every penny to me regardless of the cost.

cheers,
elapsed

Florian
02-18-2009, 11:04 PM
Hi RGA,

i believe that when it comes to Apogee, your knowledge of sale numbers are very limited. Apogee sold thousands of speakers. As a fact, there are 2500 pairs of Apogee Duettas in Germany alone. There are many many more in the USA and Asia. The company was alive and kicking for almost 20 years! Every model they made was featured in the German HIFI magazines as the reference in every price range above 10k :-) Even in the USA they wom Best sound of show a huge amount of time. They are featured in the
smithsonian and disney! Even the USA audio press bowed over for them, and the DIVA (3 to 4 smallest model) was noted in the same leauge as the Wilson WAMM and Infinity IRS

But back to topic, i agree that Audio Note makes some very nice products. I rank their electronics very highly and i have nothing against them. For me, its simply not possible. The speaker i own needs a huge room 800ft2 at least and cant be run with 30 watts of tube power. Its all a matter of preference and i woulndt mind spending 60k on a audio note amp if i had the cash. But not on their speaker ;-)

By the way, you seem to think that Apogee sold " a few amount of speakers", this is not so. The production cost was too high and the speakers where priced too low. A management mistake....

JoeE SP9
02-18-2009, 11:15 PM
Attn: All you regulars who have been following this thread. I have finally gotten in on my original name. I'm back to being JoeE SP9. It's so nice to feel like myself again!!!!
:biggrin5:

pixelthis
02-18-2009, 11:59 PM
We are exactly on the same wavelength here Pix. My post was mainly for us mortals here who for the most part probably have about $5000-$10000 or not much more in their entire systems (whether stereo or MC HT). By the end of my current upgrades which should be complete later this year (new pre-pro and BD player) I will have about $7000 in my complete 5.1 HT system. This does not include some other components, SVHS decks, extra CD players, cassette decks,etc. I think the average Joe or Jane would pay about $10000-$15000 for comparable equipment and performance from a HT dealer.

I have no problem at all with those who can afford extremely expensive gear for perfectionism if not for significantly better sound. There are a number of such folks here and I drool over their equipment lists. However, I still maintain that with careful buying and proper set-up I can put together a system (cone speakers) for under $10000 (or $7000 like I mentioned above) that the general enthusiast would listen to and view and state that it was quite close in performance to systems costing 5 or 10 times as much. Thus, my comments pertaining to diminishing returns starting somehwere in this general price area.

RR6

My gear is about the same .
THE only thing wrong with my 2500 worth of b&w is the darn things wont die, going on
seven years and still sound great, talk about a bargain.
I beleive in the law of diminshing returns, after ten grand or so you get smaller and smaller
improvement for less and less money.
Which is great if you have money to throw at a problem, but I dont.
One thing I have longed to do (except that some woman, problem, or both came along)
was advance beyond the receiver pond dwellers.
I WISH TO EVOLVE, crawl up on the beach and bask in the sun, and the sound of
seperates.
MAYBE some day...:1:

RGA
02-19-2009, 12:57 AM
Florian

Certainly Apogee has a following as does Audio Note but it is pretty obvious that both companies are dwarfed in sales by other manufacturers like Bose. I won't compare sales numbers because I'm sure you would agree that more sales does not equate to better sound. If it did it would mean that Bose makes the best loudspeakers and by far.

So it comes down to a practical issue Florian. I recommend speakers that people can walk into a store and audition first hand. Thus for whatever the reasons Apogee is no longer around is inconsequential because no one can really audition them except on the used market. And that person is going to have to likely ship them someplace to get them repaired.

I have heard only two Apogee loudspeakers in the Duetta Sig II and the Scintilla and I much prefer the Quad 2905 sticking to just panels. To my ear the Quad's have a smoother frequency balance and perform better in the upper midrange - lower treble. I found the Apogees to suffer more noticeable frequency response issues and a little brightness (something I hear with Magnepan as well). I simply have not liked the sound of Ribbons.

That does not mean to say "I'm right and you're wrong" (granted that was the "old me") and the way I used to write - it's just personal perception. Just as the AN E will sound lightweight in the large room and would very likely be unacceptable to your ear in such a room.

Obviously both companies share a fairly vocal group of followers and it's doubtful either will convince the other. And if you think about it there is no point in convincing the other. There is no way to "win" and the only thing that will be accomplished is trading reviews, experts, he said she said, (shudder) frequency graphs, and very likely on stuff that anyone reading can't audition because it's no longer made, does not have much dealer representation, or too damn expensive anyway.

The bottom line is this - there is no comparison to be made between the two that falls outside the realm of preference. The AN E is designed for a room smaller than 25X25 and the big Apogee speakers are better suited to a larger room. Thus a comparison is not even possible for if you have a massive room, like you do, the AN E will not likely sound good. Certainly the point is not lost on me.

In a medium and thus smaller than 25 X 25 room based on my listening experience it is currently number 1. My mind can be changed when and if I hear it. There are a number of speakers though that I have liked since the last time I was more of presence on this forum.

I will not try to convince a panel guy to go to boxes - I have listened to enough panels to know why they went to panels and in MOST cases I agree with the panel guys.

Florian
02-19-2009, 02:11 AM
Hi RGA,

of course there is no reason to convert someone. I wont try! Ill just say this, you heard two speakers that are very very difficult. Most likely one of the most difficult speakers to get right. The Scinitlla has a impedance of 1ohm, always! They are incredibly inefficent and therefore require amplifiers like the Musical Fidelity KW Monoblocks or Krell Reference Standard in order to run properbly. They also need a very large room (at least 400ft2) to work correctly. In almost all cases the speakers are not powered or placed right.

Apogees are and where always regarded as a see through window... if the electronics are not up to the stuff you will hear it with Apogees. I think that some of your disliking is due to the electronics as none of the Scinitlla systems i have owned and know exhibit this.

Anyways, enjoy your system. I sure am mine. My current house planing incl. 1200ft2 of audio room and only a speaker like the Grand, Genesis 1.1 or SL Majestic will do what i want.

cu

RoadRunner6
02-19-2009, 02:33 AM
Pix, I'm right with you. I get a lot of satisfaction spending forever trying to figure out how I can squeeze the last dime of performance out of my dollars while still maintaining excellent build quality and performance.

For the last year or so I have been contemplating a new receiver that even with online discounts would run about $1200-$1500 or more. Didn't think I could afford separates until not too many months ago when I started to read up about Emotiva after Kex and Rich bought their's. I read almost everything I could and ended up a believer and bought my new amp just at the right time to get a great price. With their new pre-pro this year I will have both units for $1398 plus about $25 of shipping total. Just can't even come close to that performance in any receiver under 5K

There is hope for us nearly homeless chaps (I can barely afford a six pack of non-alcoholic beer these days). Just be vigilant and very patient.

RR6 :)

Florian
02-19-2009, 04:25 AM
RGA, just as more information. You can buy new Apogees (freshly build) from www.apogeeacoustics.com or newly restored ones from True Soundworks. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1240086115

Auricauricle
02-19-2009, 08:40 AM
$10.00 + $10,990.00 = $11,000.00. :confused5: What's the other $9,000.00 for??? :lol:

Okay: You got me....Hey. I'm a word man, can't you tell?!

Auricauricle
02-19-2009, 09:20 AM
I won't pretend to have near as much knowledge or expertise regarding things audiophile as you guys....Much of what I have used in the past, even today, can be considered mid-fi, and my taste in sound and expense has been tempered by the standards acquired by that experience. I have had the fortune to listen to very expensive gear, here and there, and I can appreciate the nuanced and refined sound they are capable of; but whether it's because my budget is tight or I simply don't know better, I am happy with what I own.

It seems to me that this hobby of our is like the cigar community, which is comprised of three camps of people: The true afficianados who know their products backwards and forwards and are not impressed by a bunch of fancy doodads and lights; the "afficianados" (note the quotation marks) who spend big bucks not knowing much about what they are buying, but are convinced that "more must be better"; and those folks in between who are intrigued but are content with merely knowing just enough to purchase something that is "good enough".

This hobby, like the cigar community's is prey to all sorts of vanity and misdirection. True afficianados can sit back and watch people spend their money foolishly, knowing that the amp that costs $15,000.00 may sound great, but there are plenty of amps costing much, much less that sound just as, if not equally, as pleasing. It's sad when a beautiful product can only be afforded by a boob who doesn't have a clue, but that's just the nature of the beast. Parallel that experience to the witless multimillionaire who buys vintage Cuban cigars, but proceeds to burn them all. To the canny smoker it's a shame, but c'est la vie!

The rest of us, who know better, can go our own way and make appropriate decisions, knowing that one doesn't need to spend a pile to get a lot out of the music. I've spent a nice bit on my rig, and it brings me many hours of happy listening. This doesn't even phase (no pun) my dad, who is content to listen to CD's and cassettes (recodings of the Texaco sponsored operas at the Met [NPR]) on his boom box. He wouldn't dream of setting up such a system, and that's fine. He's an Intermediate listener: he gets what he likes and likes what he gets, and that's good enough.

In the meantime, I turn on my trusty Newcastle and look at the ads here, in Audiogon and Craiglist, knowing that one day the fever will come and it will be time to upgrade. If I had the money, I would do so in a skinny minute, believe me....

JoeE SP9
02-19-2009, 10:21 AM
I
In the meantime, I turn on my trusty Newcastle and look at the ads here, in Audiogon and Craiglist, knowing that one day the fever will come and it will be time to upgrade. If I had the money, I would do so in a skinny minute, believe me....

I think most of us (maybe not Florian:D) feel the same way.

bobsticks
02-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Attn: All you regulars who have been following this thread. I have finally gotten in on my original name. I'm back to being JoeE SP9. It's so nice to feel like myself again!!!!
:biggrin5:

Good to see you back, Joe. I too wondered when first I saw the avatar.

Florian
02-19-2009, 01:24 PM
My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/krs200.jpg

nightflier
02-19-2009, 01:29 PM
1.5kw of heat x 2? Flo, I sure hope it's cold where you live...

Florian
02-19-2009, 01:34 PM
1.5kw of heat x 2? Flo, I sure hope it's cold where you live...

-16 degree celcius right now....

BUT thats not the end of the fun. There are 4 krell monos in the Grands plus those ;-) Good thing the room is 800ft2 otherwise id be screwed royaly!

Auricauricle
02-19-2009, 01:46 PM
Schweeeeeeeet, Flo! I'm bringin' weinies for the fire! Who's got the beer?

GMichael
02-19-2009, 02:00 PM
Beer here. And maybe some finer tobacco.

E-Stat
02-19-2009, 02:02 PM
Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc...Holds any load... even a dead short :-)
Those are similar specs to the VTL Wotans. They also serve as nice room heaters and exhibit a nice glow in the dark as well. :)

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/wotan_rear.jpg

rw

Auricauricle
02-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Gee roo zalem! Did Moses say anything about coveting amplifiers? God, the itch is comin' on!

GMichael
02-19-2009, 02:17 PM
My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/krs200.jpg

How do you feed those? Wouldn't your house need special wiring? Wouldn't your town need special transformers? Wouldn't your local powerhouse need bigger generators?

E-Stat
02-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Gee roo zalem! Did Moses say anything about coveting amplifiers? God, the itch is comin' on!
Well you can get the Krell KSA-200s (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1239093744&/Krell-Price-Reduced-!-KRS---20) for a mere $10k or the Wotans (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1239094187&/VTL-MB-1250-Wotan-giant-tube-m) for $12k on Audigon - unless Flo is buying the pair from Paris.

rw

Auricauricle
02-19-2009, 03:29 PM
That's all?? Shoosh, I'll take TWO pair o' the Wotans! Er, the Krells....Um, no, wait....

RGA
02-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Flo - Once I get back to Canada - I'd be happy to review a new system from Apogee - I prefer to review "systems" over components or in lieu of that recommended front ends from the speaker maker or speakers from the amp/source makers. I'd prefer to listen with some sort of Tube design because my last Apogee auditions were coincidentally enough with Krell and Musical Fidelity.

I find Krell to sound sterile and amusical and in fact that may have been the reason I did not enjoy the Apogees. Certainly I am open to the possibility that it was the amps - but they were the the best ones from both makers. Perhaps a beastly BAT amp would suffice. Another Apogee owner on AudioAsylm runs several SET amps on his Scintilla or Calipers (I forget which he currently owns.

There is one interesting thing about amplifier load written on another thread about transistors written by a SET maker.

"You obviously buy into the claims by many of the transistor amplifiers manufacturers about the stability of their amplifiers,

"Absolutely stable into any load!" Is the claim.

Any load?

How about a dead short? Is my question to that.

Ahem, says the claimant, that is not what I meant, well says I, so what you are telling me is that a screwdriver across the speaker terminals is not a load??

Why do you think most of these amplifier have sophisticated protection circuits, would they be needed if the amplifier was truly stable??

Answer that question, please.

Now take any one of my 300B SETs for example, I can leave any of them switched on without a load or shorted for a month without any problem.

Try that with one of your favourite transistor amplifiers, after you have removed the protection circuits and then see how long it lasts!"

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=71638&highlight=short+peter+qvortrup&r=

Florian
02-20-2009, 01:29 AM
Hi RGA,

first we must get on the same base. Not knowing the difference between a Scinitlla and Caliper is terrible, especially when actually commenting on the sound of Apogees :-) His name is Carl, and he has neither the Scinitlla nor the Caliper but he Apogee Stage.

Scintilla = 1ohm impedance 79db efficency (or non-efficency)
Caliper = 4ohm, much smaller and about 83db
Stage = 6ohm and about 88db

Regardin the Krell amps, i agree most do not sound very good. In this case, we are talking about the rarest Krell amp made. You can put a screwdriver across the terminals, sparks will fly and as soon as you lift the screwdriver it continous running. It is the biggest, most powerfull Krell built today. The old owner drives his Apogee Fullranges fully active (0.2ohm) load on the midrange with 6x of those amplifers. This amp, is fully stable...yes even into a dead short. This was demonstrated several times at the High End show in Frankfuhrt by the importer of Krell.

Running them for 24hrs 7days is not a problem either, but will pure class a it sucks 2500watts per side out of the socket. Not a wise choice ;-) This amp was made to drive anything, even a screwdriver. Most all other Krells cannot do this.

And please, stop commenting on Apogees. You dont even know the difference between the models, thats like me saying that i heard a AudioNote J, S or E...i dont remeber, but i do remeber not liking it ^^

Cheers

Florian
02-20-2009, 01:32 AM
How do you feed those? Wouldn't your house need special wiring? Wouldn't your town need special transformers? Wouldn't your local powerhouse need bigger generators?

Na, since its pure class a with no biasing they take a short while to fill all their capacitor banks and then just turn on. ^^ But yes, a good powerline is required. Thats another 5KW i have to pay..... :shocked:

Florian
02-20-2009, 01:33 AM
Well you can get the Krell KSA-200s (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1239093744&/Krell-Price-Reduced-!-KRS---20) for a mere $10k or the Wotans (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1239094187&/VTL-MB-1250-Wotan-giant-tube-m) for $12k on Audigon - unless Flo is buying the pair from Paris.

rw

Hi E-Stat,

its the KRS-200 but the link was correct. But those are mine, not for sale anymore :3:

audio amateur
02-20-2009, 04:22 AM
Those are similar specs to the VTL Wotans. They also serve as nice room heaters and exhibit a nice glow in the dark as well. :)

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/wotan_rear.jpg

rw
Talk about an orgy of Nordost(?) cables..
Nice amps..

E-Stat
02-20-2009, 07:08 AM
But those are mine, not for sale anymore :3:
Ok. Usually components that are sold are marked sold. Or even - sold,sold,sold. :)

rw

Feanor
02-20-2009, 07:21 AM
My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)



Those are suitably insane. :hand: Enjoy!

Florian
02-20-2009, 07:28 AM
Those are suitably insane. :hand: Enjoy!

Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. :blush2: When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....

GMichael
02-20-2009, 07:36 AM
Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. :blush2: When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....

On the carpet? Won't they start a fire?:yikes:

audio amateur
02-20-2009, 08:20 AM
Thanks! I am still kind wondering how to move them. :blush2: When they rest on the carpet with 245lbs each i dont think i can move them much.....
Make sure they don't go through the floor:eek6:

basite
02-20-2009, 09:05 AM
nice room heaters Flo (well, that's an understatement...), I'd be interested to know how you like them when in your system :)


Have fun!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

E-Stat
02-20-2009, 09:24 AM
I find Krell to sound sterile and amusical...
That has been my reaction to Dan's stuff as well, albeit with limited exposure. There is a guy on Audiogon who uses Tube Research Labs amplifiers with his full range Apogees.


Why do you think most of these amplifier have sophisticated protection circuits, would they be needed if the amplifier was truly stable??
Not all solid state units do require current limiting protection circuitry. My Threshold Stasis, for example uses none. Its output stage was designed specifically to drive Dayton-Wright electrostats, a notoriously difficult load. while it is only rated at 100 watts per channel, the output stage uses thirty-two 150 watt devices. In a worse case scenario, it would open a rail fuse. Coincidentally, I met Dan D'Agostino back in the 70s when he was the manufacturer's rep for - yes, Dayton-Wright and Dunlap-Clarke, an early high powered solid state amp that no doubt had an influence on his later work at Krell.


Ahem, says the claimant, that is not what I meant, well says I, so what you are telling me is that a screwdriver across the speaker terminals is not a load??
Well strictly speaking, a short is not a *typical* load presented by speakers, but it does recall a funny story. I was the resident audio geek back in high school and was asked to provide the system for the 1974 Miss RHS Pageant. I brought my double Advents driven by a Crown D-150 amp. I had to hide the equipment under a covered table and in the process of getting things connected with the poor lighting, shorted the outputs with a screwdriver! It was lightly welded to the speaker terminals and caused the amp to shut down. After prying the screwdriver loose, I proceeded to connect the speaker, switch it back on and - all was well!


Now take any one of my 300B SETs for example, I can leave any of them switched on without a load or shorted for a month without any problem.
Actually, an open load is not a problem for most SS amps. It is, however, for my VTL tube amps. I think its always a good idea to turn amps off before switching leads anyway. :)


Try that with one of your favourite transistor amplifiers, after you have removed the protection circuits and then see how long it lasts!"
The primary difference is how much current needs to be dissipated. An open load doesn't have to dissipate any as in the case of a direct short. Low powered SETs don't generate high levels of current in any event to be of concern.

rw

RGA
02-22-2009, 02:32 AM
Florian - I was not arguing the case with you. Please read what i wrote a bit more carefully because I was talking about what a poster on AA owned and I forgot which Apogee loudspeaker he has - he often discussed the Scintilla and the Caliper and I knew he owned one but I don't recall what every poster on every forum owns. Suffice it to say he is very knowledgeable and a big fan of Apogee loudspeakers and claims that SET amps sound better on them whether 1 ohm or 4 ohm.

You assume it someone named Carl - I have no idea who Carl is - this poster who waxed poetic on Apogee for several years now owns:

Acoustat Spectra 2200
Acoustat Spectra 4400 acting as planar subs
DIY fully active planar magnetic hybrid speakers

And he runs:
2 KR audio Electronics VA350i hybrid integrated amplifiers. 30 watts each of SET power with passive preamp input.

If that sounds like Carl then I suppose it is.

I know which models I have heard - the Apogee Duetta Sig II that Constantine Soo of Dagogo owned - and the Scintilla.

If as you say the Krell amps are a bad match with Apogee then I will allow for the possibility that the less than good results I heard was due to the amps and not the Apogees. In fact it may very well be possible because I have not really loved Krell with anything.

Like I said I'd be pleased to review a new Apogee with something Apogee believes to be a good match. System Synergy is important and obviously I would not review an Apogee with a low powered amp such as mine.

Florian
02-22-2009, 10:43 PM
Hi RGA,

the person you mean is Brad Morrical or "morricab". He is a friend of mine in Switzerland. I do know what you mean, but disagree with your common opinion about some companys. Krell makes good and bad amplifiers, there are very large gaps between the models. I dont mean that all Krell amps are a bad match, otherwise i wouldnt have just spend 10k for a pair.

Brad loves KR-Hybrid amps, OTLS and SETS. But he also knows that currently no tube amp can drive an Apogee Scintilla. The amps he loves works great on a Caliper Sig, but wont have enough power to drive the larger models besides my Apogee Grand. But that is only because its fully active and requires 8 amplifers in order to run!

;-)

PS: I am not a dealer or a manufacturer, so getting you an Apogee to review is not very likely. Plus you would need a 600ft2 room to really get them going, plus loads of electronics to try.

PPS: The Apogee Synergy, is a modern Scintilla clone, 95db efficency with a 3ohm load. Those can work on the amps you like. I believe retail is about 26k...

Rich-n-Texas
02-23-2009, 05:44 AM
My new aquistition fits perfectly into this thread!

Its a 245lbs monoblock amp, takes 2.5kw out of the wall, puts out 1.5kw of heat per unit... pure class A.. no bias etc... I am picking them up next week in Paris. 6 cubic feet per unit. Holds any load... even a dead short :-)

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/krs200.jpg
You'd need solid copper rods for circuit breakers (I'm guessing about 1" dia.) After that, I suspect your local power company would be paying you a visit.

Nevertheless, I doubt I'll ever see amps like that, let alone the pedestals they're sitting on. Very impressive.

E-Stat
02-23-2009, 06:27 AM
The amps he loves works great on a Caliper Sig, but wont have enough power to drive the larger models besides my Apogee Grand.
Where does the Fullrange fall? There's a guy on Audiogon who runs some Tube Research amps with his having used a range of others.

Apogee system (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1066703453)

rw

Florian
02-23-2009, 06:39 AM
Where does the Fullrange fall? There's a guy on Audiogon who runs some Tube Research amps with his having used a range of others.

Apogee system (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1066703453)

rw

His name is Ish, a friend of mine in Dallas Texas. The Fullrange falls below my Modell and above the DIVA. He is not using a "stock" Fullrange. He is using the Fullrange bass panel mated with a Apogee Centaur Major midrange ribbon. The midrange ribbon is similar to my Grand midrange driver.

MLAS
04-10-2009, 03:10 PM
The Krell KRS-200 do have some problems with the connectors to the eight powertransistor towers. The darkred ERO capacitors on the pre-driver stage probably need to be replaced because they tend to dry out in a couple of years and Krell acknowledges that. I had to replace them all at instigation from Walt Schneider COO of Krell.
The KRS-200 is a 200 Watt fully biased Class A design that uses about 1150 Watts from the wall continously like the Krell KMA-200 Class A monoblocks that used forced cooling to get rid of the heat.
KRS stands for Krell Reference Series and they made for different mono preamps in that serie: KRS, KRS-1, KRS-1A and KRS Balanced, one stereo preamp the KRS-2 and two convection cooled Class A mono-amps the KRS-200 and KRS-100.
I have a ML-3 that weighs 116 lbs and I can't barely carry that on my own. The weight of a KRS-200 is 185 lbs and it has a lot of sharp corners so if you try to lift it on your own it will kill you. I could buy a pair in Austria but the sheer size, weight, wife and young kids stopped me from doing so. You will definitely need a qualified serviceman for these beasts to keep them running.

nightflier
04-11-2009, 02:23 PM
Well, you can always put a sheet of glass on top, and brag about having the most expensive coffee table in town....

Auricauricle
04-11-2009, 04:07 PM
No t' mention doin' double duty keepin' them caffè lattes nice and warm!