What, exactly, makes a unit "vintage" as opposed to just old?

[markw]

"thekid" brings up a good point in another thread : Not a ot goes on here in the vintage forum so let's put a little life into this.

I see lots of stuff labelled vintage, particularly on Ebay. This included plastic Yorx,Soundesign, Lennox, etc. stereos and thin-walled, hollow--backed speakers from cheezy phonograph/8-track tabletop stereos. IS this vintage or simply cheap stuff that was "not audiophile worthy" when they were made that's lived in the celar, attics or garages of owners for decades?

To me, it means something that was a good performer in it's time antd that time should be quite some time ago, although this might be bordering on a "classic" designation, but I don't think something needs be "vintage" to be "classic". I see vintage as a classic with age.

Now. maybe since I remember some of those radio shack catalogs from the early sixties I have a stricter standard than most*, but let's see what others think.

*I still cringe when people talk about "vintage" CD players even though they have been around since the early eighties. Don't even get me strted on vintage AVR's

[Auricauricle]

I was kinda hoping that this was a sleeping dog that we would just let lie, but as long as yer rousin' the beast, I'll get on board.

Like you, I am perplexed by the way "vintage" is used to describe equipment regardless of its merit or its age. Seems to me, the only few applications of the term using it correctly refer to port and MAYBE cigars. These products are generally well-crafted and allowed to age, thus giving their character a chance to mature and bloom.

Saying that, "Vintage", as a term. should refer to equipment that has stood up to the test of time and improved over that course. If it is a component (or cigar or port) that is especially noteworthy and is highly desirable, then "Classic" can be used.

At least that is my "off the cuff" opinion....

[GMichael]

You know I'm not one to be serious or break things down to a lot of details. So, I'm just gonna be me and say it simple. Vintage should be something of quality and age (20 years?). Something that has better sound than most of anything of that price range made today. Or something that was ahead of it's time.

[Feanor]

"thekid" brings up a good point in another thread : Not a ot goes on here in the vintage forum so let's put a little life into this.
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Well, some would (and have) suggested 20 years being the cut-off for "vintage" as it applies to hifi gear. That's not unreasonable.

I don't know that quality has all the much to do with it. There's probably somebody who'd like the old Yorx. On the other hand, some people like our erstwhile member, Melvin Walker, who insisted that only equipment of elite quality and reputation could be considered vintage. His examples being the Mazantz 7C preamp (http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/0007c.html), 10B tuner (http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/0010b.html), or McIntosh C22 preamp (http://www.roger-russell.com/preamps.htm#c22), or MC-275 power amp (http://www.roger-russell.com/amplif1.htm#mc275).

For my part, "vintage" is really pre-1980. Typical characteristics:

Mostly discrete components, i.e. few or not integrated circuits
Analog tuning and tuner dials -- no LEDs
Analog meters rather than LEDS or plasms displays
Fully analog controls rather electrical "touch" switches
Rotating knobs for volume and most functions (-- definitely no sliders, (ugh!))
Flip-switches than pushbottons
No remote control.Check out this gorgeous Pioneer Spec-1 preamp (http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/SPEC12/SPEC12.html) from that late '70s.
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[GMichael]

Well, some would (and have) suggested 20 years being the cut-off for "vintage" as it applies to hifi gear. That's not unreasonable.

I don't know that quality has all the much to do with it. There's probably somebody who'd like the old Yorx. On the other hand, some people like our erstwhile member, Melvin Walker, who insisted that only equipment of elite quality and reputation could be considered vintage. His examples being the Mazantz 7C preamp (http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/0007c.html), 10B tuner (http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/0010b.html), or McIntosh C22 preamp (http://www.roger-russell.com/preamps.htm#c22), or MC-275 power amp (http://www.roger-russell.com/amplif1.htm#mc275).

For my part, "vintage" is really pre-1980. Typical characteristics:

Mostly discrete components, i.e. few or not integrated circuits
Analog tuning and tuner dials -- no LEDs
Analog meters rather than LEDS or plasms displays
Fully analog controls rather electrical "touch" switches
Rotating knobs for volume and most functions (-- definitely no sliders, (ugh!))
Flip-switches than pushbottons
No remote control.Check out this gorgeous Pioneer Spec-1 preamp (http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/SPEC12/SPEC12.html) from that late '70s.
...

I have a 25 wpc Pioneer receiver with an 8-track player/recorder built in that would fit those requirements. I'd feel like I was misrepresenting it to call it vintage equipment.

[Auricauricle]

GEEZE, Bill! Does that come in a centerfold?

[bobsticks]

Markw, ya gots to put into terms I can understand. Lemme see if I got this right...according to you:

Sophia Lauren (http://www.takehollywood.com/core/medias/dynamicLibrary/MyOffice/mod_actor/picture/actor_14.jpg) is "vintage"...

Halle Berry (http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2007/11/02/previews/Halle%20Berry-LRS-011853.jpg) is "classic"...

...and Janet Reno (http://www.cameruci.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/reno_drool.jpg)is just "old"?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Check out this gorgeous Pioneer Spec-1 preamp (http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/SPEC12/SPEC12.html) from that late '70s.
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Sweet Unit!! I had the baby sister to that one. A SA-8100 if I recall correctly. Nice piece, wish I didn't sell it.:cryin: Still looking for speaks for my Sansui tho.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, since my Akai M-9, that my now deceased B in Law brought back brand new from (I think) Taiwan in about 1968, surely it would qualify as vintage. What makes it even moreso, IMO is the fact that it employed new, at the time, technology: "Crossfield" 4-track recording. You recorded on two tracks first, turn the dial, and then record on the other two tracks. I'd contend that if used today it would make a great karaoke machine, or something along those lines.

Unfortunately it's currently in need of some serious repair and reconditioning, but I've found someone here in Texas that repairs old/vintage gear like my M-9. I'm considering calling him, describing it's problems and getting a ballpark $$$ for it's repair. My sister would be proud of me, I'm sure.

[emaidel]

I would have to agree with Feanor's list as to what comprises "vintage" as opposed to just "old." His use of the Pioneer Spec I preamp is a perfect example, but one "feature" was left out on his list: a plethora of essentially useless knobs and switches.

A careful examination of the front panel of that Pioneer unit reveals items that have long gone into virtual extinction: an "attenuator," separate bass and treble controls for each channel as well as a tone control "on/off" switch; a phono sensitivity knob on the front panel, and, of course, the totally useless and non-functional rack handles that almost every Japanese manufacturer installed on their equipment. I don't know this for sure, but I believe they eventually lost favor since so many consumers used them to lift, or carry their equipment, only to have them fall off, subsequently destroying a beloved piece of gear.

All of these made much audio equipment in the mid to late 70's appear "hefty" and feature-laden, but didn't always offer any tangible benefit. Still, one look at that unit brings back floods of memories, and there was no denying the "professional" look one's system had with the installation of such finely machined equipment with its array of knobs and switches, however useless. Ah, memories, memories, memories.....

[02audionoob]

If you have to assign one flattering term or another, I think I prefer the term Classic unless the item's age actually contributes to its value. If age is a contributor to the item's value, then Vintage. As for the appearance of being hefty and feature-laden, I'm a Marantz fan.

[Auricauricle]

Further proof that if it's black, it ain't vintage!

[Feanor]

Further proof that if it's black, it ain't vintage!

Oh, wouldn't go that far. For instance this sweet Technics SU-9600 preamp
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[Feanor]

Further proof that if it's black, it ain't vintage!

Sansui CA-3000
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[Feanor]

Further proof that if it's black, it ain't vintage!
Yamaha C-1 -- mouth-watering :yesnod:
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[02audionoob]

There's a seller on craigslist currently listing an Adcom GFA-555II and calls it Vintage. Considering he's asking $620 for it, he might be on drugs.

[Feanor]

There's a seller on craigslist currently listing an Adcom GFA-555II and calls it Vintage. Considering he's asking $620 for it, he might be on drugs.

The GFA-555II is quite a nice amp -- sounds very good, lots of power. But a bit young for vintage. Pricey at $620, a steal under $400.

[Auricauricle]

Aw right! AW RIGHT! I knew that if I said what I said that I'd step on a pile!

[E-Stat]

Yamaha C-1 -- mouth-watering :yesnod:
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Back in the 70s while I was drooling over JWC's Dayton-Wrights, he had the B-1 and C-1 for review. While the C-1 was a good sounding preamp, he did most of his listening using a Levinson JC-2. As an aside, that was not only arguably the best sounding SS preamp of the day, but one the best looking preamps by my aesthetic as well. Like the LNP-2, the front panel markings were not only screened, but engraved. I styled my DIY attenuators after its appearance.

JC-2 (http://www.marklev.com/JC2/img/index.html)

The B-1, however, was a ground breaking VFET amp and had no trouble driving those stats. Only recently with the First Watt F3 has another VFET amplifier come along.

As for what constitutes "vintage", who's to say? Black panels had their start as early as 1968 with the McIntosh C-26 / 2105.

I always enjoy your component centerfolds. :)

rw

[thekid]

Well since I was cited in the opening thread here I thought I better contribute....

Some people use age as the most determinant factor while others will hold that it is age plus quality. The quality aspect of it allows personal preference to creep in and then people start to disagree and debate. You even have people basing their opinion based on the material used for the gear with some arguing that anything made with plastic can not be "vintage".

I think the definition of "vintage" is much like the definition of "obscenity" that Justice Potter used years ago- "I know it when I see it"!

But maybe for audio we can modify it a bit and say "I know it when I hear it".......

[RoadRunner6]

Yamaha C-1 -- mouth-watering :yesnod:
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WOW !!! Three great comebacks in a row, all with beautiful 8x10 glossy photos. Those bring back lots of memories...Black is beautiful!

Thanks (tried rep points but have to wait)

RR6 :thumbsup:

[Auricauricle]

I reckon that "vintage" can also be appended to any object that is "desirable" or "collectible"....

[Feanor]

....

As for what constitutes "vintage", who's to say? Black panels had their start as early as 1968 with the McIntosh C-26 / 2105.
...
rw

Yes, black goes back that far at least. Of course, the McIntosh were and are special for the glass panels. When people say they find Macs garrish, I suspect they're thinking of the current and more recent ones.

I find the McIntosh of the late '60s, earlier '70s quite elegant. Unfortunately the following pic doesn't do them full justice -- they look better "in the flesh" so to speak. Note that the knobs are all brushed chrome with slightly raised centers; in the late '70s they changed to a knobs with a black, depressed centers that are still used today. These are much less elegant & attractive, IMO.
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[Bob Lewis]

Yes,
Like cars, vintage audio must not only be about looks but about performance that has stood the test of time - but unlike most vintage cars, should still be reliable in daily usability. They will have far exceeded their original purchase cost at present day values. For example:
Spendor BC1 speakers, in the 1970s, the biggest selling, close range studio monitors in the world. And still commanding $6000+ price tags after 30 years.
Boothroyd Stewart Meridian 101/ 105 pre-power amps (with plug in preamp modules for the moving coil cartridge of the day) and one of the few separate power supply / amp mono blocks costing less than a small car
Linn Sondek Mk 1 - the incredible vinyl transformer that put vogueish direct drive decks to shame; and remains in the top 5 musical decks still today.
Audio Innovations 70s vintage valve pre and power amps
All the QUAD stuff
And many more I could not completely list right now - Crown, Leak, Sugden, Monitor Audio, etc..

Funnily enough (!) all except the QUAD is what I am still using, although the Spendors have had some replacement units & other modifications (all supported by the late Spencer Hughes.) I am tired of young dudes asking me if I will sell them. Never, but they're not for headbangers and I wouldn't bother driving them with anything under 100 RMS in this age of boutique 'hi-fi' and MP3 crud.