Vintage speakers and Power.....

[thekid]

I was discussing some of my recent vintage amp pickups the other day with someone and we got to talking about WPC ratings. This person's position was that the older amps that only put out 20-25 wpc damage speakers because of their low output. It is my contention that might be true if I were not using them to power older speakers from roughly the same era because those speakers were designed at a time where 20-25 wpc was the norm. He countered that the older speakers may have been more efficient but that drivers are drivers and even vintage speakers benefit from more power. He stated that all things being equal an amp with 50-60 wpc will produce better sound than an amp with 20-25 wpc driving the same speakers assuming that they are both maintain their power levels. Any thoughts??

[markw]

I've seen people talking about "vintage" AV receivers so a bit of clarification is needed before any serious discussion can take place, but...

Back in "the day", say late sixties/early seventies and before, a 25 watt per channel amp was big stuff. Even in the early seventies, amps with 70 watts were considered ginormous. It's only in the late seventies when the receiver power wars started that the watts ratings shot up into the three digit range. Of course, the FTC rulings in '74 took a little wind out of their sails, but the trend was already underway.

As for speakers, in the early days, they didn't need to be as robust as todays speakers. Since 25 watts was the max, they really didn't have to be worried about too much more. And, their limitations were determined by the sources of the day.

They weren't expected to have the response of a modern subwoofer and the extended highs of modern tweeter, nor the power handling capacity. Since vinyl and mylar were the main sources of the day, highs were not as extended as in todays recordings, not to mention that synthsizers hadn't been invented yet and an occasionsal organ pedal note be would be as low as it got.

As for speakers. just like modern speakers, most do benefit from a bit more power than they are originally speced for ON OCCASION, but feeding a vintage speaker a steady diet of modern recordings at a high level might (most likely?) result in them suffering a long-overdue death.

Common sense must prevail if these things are expected to remain functioning.

[thekid]

MW

Good points.
I am referring to late 60's-early 70's speakers and amps. For example I have been raving to everyone how well my Kenwood TK-250 (circa 1968) goes with my Optimus 5's (circa 1973) or the Sansui AU-505 (circa 1973) with my Genesis I's (circa 1975).

I have plenty of amps with power but I just am thinking to have a truly vintage system you want to match amps of the day with speakers of the day and there should not be any harm in that.

I am not sure I'd neccessarily agree that vintage speakers are not as robust as today's speakers. But we all have different ears and hear things a bit different which is what makes it interesting.

[Kevio]

Low powered amps are only a danger to speakers if you overdrive them. Overdriven amps are really only a danger to tweeters. The distortion from an overdriven amp puts more energy in the higher frequencies than you'd find in normal program material.

Vintage tweeters were built more like today's midrange drivers (I know because, in my youth, I took a lot of these apart to harvest magnets for my other projects) and so they may, in fact, be more robust than today's extended range tweeters.

Vintage speakers definitely have lower power handling capacity than most modern speakers. If you're going for an authentic vintage sound, you'll definitely want to match components.

But be aware that "system" engineering was not a well-developed art in the 60's and 70's. It is quite likely that a system would consist of an underpowered amplifier, robust tweeters and fragile woofer, for instance.

[kexodusc]

I was discussing some of my recent vintage amp pickups the other day with someone and we got to talking about WPC ratings. This person's position was that the older amps that only put out 20-25 wpc damage speakers because of their low output.
Odd of him to think that. Even an older speaker of modest efficiency of, say 83-84 dB will still produce some pretty loud sounds in the average room at 20 WPC without any clipping. Not stage levels but unless you're really seeking loud playback don't know how he arrived at that conclusion.
An amp will only damage the speaker if it exceeds the thermal capacity of the drivers, or the mechanical limit of the drivers (excursion), or if it runs out of headroom and starts distorting like crazy (which will lead to one of the first two).


It is my contention that might be true if I were not using them to power older speakers from roughly the same era because those speakers were designed at a time where 20-25 wpc was the norm. He countered that the older speakers may have been more efficient but that drivers are drivers and even vintage speakers benefit from more power.
If you only listen to music at 80 dB in room (quite common), then having a 20 or 100 watt amp probably isn't a big deal. Both will drive that speaker well before any distortion or clipping. When the amp is required to send X amount of current at Y voltage, it will do that at its rated distortion without damaging the speaker. It's only when you start exceeding the capacity of the amp will damage or loss of sound quality start to become an issue.


He stated that all things being equal an amp with 50-60 wpc will produce better sound than an amp with 20-25 wpc driving the same speakers assuming that they are both maintain their power levels. Any thoughts??
All things equal (truly equal), at the same volume within the operating limits of both amplifiers, by definition the two would sound exactly the same. The bigger amp will only produce MORE sound, not better sound unless something else isn't equal. Like if you need 40 watts to reach 90 dB in room and only have 20 available...then yeah, the small amp is gonna suck.

[02audionoob]

I have concurrently had a Marantz integrated from the 70's that had 20 wpc (Marantz 1040, ca. 1976?) and one with 45 wpc (Marantz 1090, ca. 1978?). The 45-watt amp very definitely had a fuller sound. I was using 3-way tower speakers from the 80's with the two amps.

[markw]

I am not sure I'd neccessarily agree that vintage speakers are not as robust as today's speakers. But we all have different ears and hear things a bit different which is what makes it interesting.Yes. we all do hear things differently but you might want to explore the power handling capacity of some older speakers from the 60's and such before dismissing what I said.

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/index.html

[thekid]

Yes. we all do hear things differently but you might want to explore the power handling capacity of some older speakers from the 60's and such before dismissing what I said.

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/index.html
i was interpreting your use of "robust" in terms of SQ not power specs. I am aware alot of the older speakers do not have the same power capacity as many of today speakers. Thanks for your replies to this topic-not whole goes on around here in the vintage forum......

[davidmorris]

HI everybody I just found the Audio Review site and wanted to introduce myself. I love hi-fi and am into vintage tube gear. I have 12 tube amps and a couple of solid state pieces. Also into vintage speakers and that's how I came across this site. I want to know more about speakers and other gear. regards David

[davidmorris]

I read a post by the kid concerning power amps older tube amps compared to newer solid state with a lot more watts per channel and it made me think of an article I read several years ago about the guy that founded Magnavox. The very first PA public address system ever used was in 1909 for a political debate, PA as we know it today was unknown and electrical devices like speakers, and amps were still in the pioneer stage, and unknown to the general public. It was in San Francisco and a crowd of 10,000 was expected. It was set up in a cow pasture and the organizers wanted everyone to be able to hear the speeches. They hired a guy who claimed he could build them an electrical device that would amplify the speech so everyone could hear it, and if it didn't work would refund their money. The Magnavox guy had a 1/2 watt tube amp he built (vacuum tubes, resistors, capacitors etc were all hand made in small one two man labs) and he built some home made speakers and a mic (but I think he ran down to Radio Shack for his cables), but he was not sure any of his gear would even work or not. It was reported in the News paper the next day that people a mile away could hear the speeches clearly. Nobody remembers the speeches but to this day its regarded as an historical day in electronics because it was the very first PA system ever invented, and the people in attendances were amazed at the modern technology. What will they think of next? Man its all about the first watt and the efficiency of the speakers.

[thekid]

DM

Welcome to AR1
You will certainly find a lot of knowledgable people here on AR but unfortunately I am not one of them. i have taken a liking to a lot of older ggear but pretty much limit myself to what i can pick up in thrift stores or on CL.

to see some pics of the gear that was being discussed that started this thread you can check out this thread.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=27977

None of the amps or recievers in those photos are over 25 wpc but i have never had to crank the volume on any of them to get good sound from the speakers.