I'm about fed up with my BD-P1200

[Mr Peabody]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.

[02audionoob]

When I was shopping for a Blu-ray player, I wanted the Samsung until I saw a note on the box that said it doesn't play DVD+R. That shouldn't really be an issue, but it gave me pause. I bought a Sony.

[pixelthis]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.


The only time I had trouble playing a disc that was terminal on my Sony was a rental disc,
and after looking I noticed that fingerprints were all over it, cleaned it and it worked fine.
LOAD time doesnt seem that long, I put the disc in well beforehand and its usually ready to go.
Why not one of those DENON universal players you were talking about in another thread?
A AUDIO ENTHUSIAST such as yourself would love the SACD/ BLU ombination.:1:

[Woochifer]

Occasionally I will rent a Blu-ray disc and it won't play. I'll call up Samsung and they send me out the latest firmware fix. It takes care of the problem but I've already had to watch the movie on SD, put the time and effort into getting the fix, all just aggrevation. This last time this happened was when I rented the movie Space Chimps for the kiddies. They really liked it so after getting the BR fix I bought the movie. Well, this time, even after a fix, it don't play. I was doing a bit of looking around with swapping that player out in the back of my mind and discovered that Samsung has a rep for disc incompatibility. So much for the 2500, as it was in this review the statement was made. After this many generations how can they not have addressed this issue in their players?

The compatibility issues with the first gen players, and the 1200 in particular have been discussed on many many discussion boards. Samsung has also been slow with getting the firmware updates out. Although I would guess that you could find the firmware fix on their website and use it to burn the update onto a DVD.

One huge advantage with the PS3 is how often Sony updates the firmware. In addition, the PS3's built-in wi-fi makes the updates ridiculously easy. All the other standalone BD players with internet connectivity still use ethernet ports, although I read that new BD models with built-in wi-fi will start trickling into stores very soon.


So now I'm not sure what to do as far as what players to put on my radar. The Sony s550 could be a contender but it seems a bit slow. Most of the players now have improved on the standard disc playback. The dmp-35 maybe but from what I've seen so far Panasonic is keeping their player's prices up. Amazon is blowing out Pioneer BD-p51's at $289.00. I'll have to do some checking on that one. I noticed that even players not out yet are coming with Bonus View version 1.1 where we've had 2.0 out for awhile. Anyone know the difference between 1.1 and 2.0?

For disc loading speed, the PS3 and the Sharp AQUOS BD players do well.

As far as Panny goes, their list prices remain high, but the street prices are a lot lower. At CES, they already announced the replacement models for the DMP-BD35 and 55, and those models only arrived in stores over the summer. When the 35 and 55 arrived, I remember seeing Costco selling the previous models for $220 and the 35 for $250.

The primary difference between 1.1 and 2.0 is the internet connectivity and compatibility with BD Live features. The DMP-BD35 requires a SD memory card to enable the Profile 2.0 features since it lacks any onboard RAM. I have discs enabled for BD Live, and most of the stuff I've seen so far is underwhelming. Some stuff sounds cool, like the ability to have "community" screenings where everyone watches a movie at the same time and interacts with each other in real time. But, I've yet to try it out.


Isn't it a shame to already be looking for an upgrade when most don't even have a BR player.

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us! :cool:

[GMichael]

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us! :cool:

Whoa! Talk about, below the belt. :nono:

A solid hit right to his wallet.:cryin:

[bobsticks]

Ah, the life of an early adopter! We procrastinators value and appreciate the service that you provide for us! :cool:

I'd give you a Greenie if I could.

[Mr Peabody]

Reviews show the Pioneer BD-51/05 did not fare well in the standard DVD tests, so off the list. The one I'm really interested in but can't bring myself to spend that much, even if I found a deal, is the new NAD.

I'm not really interested in the BD Live stuff but I wonder if that's the problem with the disc incompatibility. Maybe the player needs to be fully compatible not to have issues.

Wooch, :), glad I can be of service. Again, my life has more meaning.

[musicman1999]

hello mr p

i see that you mentioned the pioneer 51, i bought one about a month ago and i have been very pleased with it so far. on the audio side i use the multi channel outputs as my anthem does not do hdmi. the 51 has 4 wolfson dacs so the audio is in good hands but it does not decode dts master audio over the analogs as yet but that is coming in march.on the video side it has a stunning bluray picture, clearly better than my ps3. for dvd performance i thought is was very good on the few discs that i tried, it is not my main dvd player but it was the only upscaling player that has come close to my moon dvd player for picture quality and the moon retailed at about 8 times what the pioneer did.it does have a bass management issue(fixed crossover) but should not affect you, because you would bitstream.
worth a look for sure.

bill

[bobsticks]

Good to see you around bill.

[Mr Peabody]

Hi Bill, it is good to see you again. I thought the 51 had on board decoding. How do you get updates from Pioneer?

[nightflier]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the need for keeping products up to date and to be able to add new features, but with these BR players it seems to be needed every other week. To me that smacks of shoddy manufacturing. What's next, virus scanners for BR players? I'm waiting to see the first mallware app to hit these internet-connected systems. If possible, I'd focus on those products that need the fewest firmware updates over time.

Another thing that this thread makes abundantly clear is that BR players become disposable after just a couple of years. Now I'm sure that if one were to spend $2500 on a payer, that would be disheartening, but it certainly makes the value of these players a lot less stable over time. I kind of feel sorry for all those people who got suckered into paying full price for the Denon 5900/3900 players, that the magazines were raving about just a few years ago - these are selling for a fraction of their former glory on the used market. But even at the lower-price points, what are we really gaining by paying an extra $200 for a player because it has ver.X of a software capability as opposed to ver.Y?

[kexodusc]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.
.

I used to think this way, but not any more. When I look at BluRay's, we're really talking about computers, software, and very large amounts of data. Most of it is licensed software code from people like Dolby, DTS, whoever owns the code for whatever video format is on BluRay, and then there's all the extra/add-on software stuff like BD Live, etc...It's not right to hold Samsung responsible for Dolby or Sony's proprietary technology upgrade schedule.

Updating how well the software works, or modifying the drivers for existing hardware to work better with the software that is available over time is a value added IMO, not a sign of poor quality. There's so much that can go wrong in code, and so much more that can always be tweaked for slightly better performance, that expecting perfection in these players for a format that is perpetually changing, evolving, and becoming more complex is just unrealistic.

I think you might have a point in that BluRay hardware/software might be trying to be too much, too fast for too many different people, but I guess that's the price of progress...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.
I wholeheartedly agreed with this, but then...

I used to think this way, but not any more. When I look at BluRay's, we're really talking about computers, software, and very large amounts of data. Most of it is licensed software code from people like Dolby, DTS, whoever owns the code for whatever video format is on BluRay, and then there's all the extra/add-on software stuff like BD Live, etc...It's not right to hold Samsung responsible for Dolby or Sony's proprietary technology upgrade schedule.
Yup. what I've seen in this day and age is that A/V equipment is just as much computer as sound and video processor. The word processor itself congures up "microprocessor" in my mind.

I suggest that the computerization of today's A/V equipment is a compelling reason why there are so many analog stallwards that still exist in the community.

[bfalls]

If you've ever seen how a standard DVD player works you would have no doubt they too are computer based. Every so often I need to diagnose a DVD problem for copy protection software I implement for Sony. One of the programs I use is a freeware program called PGCEdit. This program has a "trace" function which steps through the initialization and play sequences. Playing a DVD is pretty much the same as running a computer program using registers to store values, mathematic computations, branching, etc ...
My Blu-ray player is a PS3, so I don't mind performing the occasional upgrades. It's simple and keeps everything up to date. So far they seem to be doing a better job than Microsoft. My PS3 has never displayed the "Blue Screen of Death". (knock on wood).

[nightflier]

Another problem with firmware updates is when these devices fall behind. With a computer, if you don't keep up with updates, then you need to go through a whole afternoon of updating, rebooting, and hope that everything installs w/o a freeze. I presume that most of us keep up to date with this, but what about the many consumers who don't? And while it's possible to keep up with 2-3 devices around the house, how do you manage 20-30 devices around the house? As more of our everyday electronics start to rely on this new model or owner-responsibility, we could have dozens more devices to update in a very short time. This will become a nightmare of firmware management.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a problem? What if one day you have to call you boss and tell her/him that you'll have to miss the staff meeting because your car didn't get it's firmware update last night. Better yet, what if you get the dreaded BSOD in the middle rush-hour traffic? I mean most people still ignore the check engine light, but can you really ignore a memory-dump screen on the console?

While we'd be loath to admit it, this may well be the reason so many of us like analog simplicity so much more....

[GMichael]

Another problem with firmware updates is when these devices fall behind. With a computer, if you don't keep up with updates, then you need to go through a whole afternoon of updating, rebooting, and hope that everything installs w/o a freeze. I presume that most of us keep up to date with this, but what about the many consumers who don't? And while it's possible to keep up with 2-3 devices around the house, how do you manage 20-30 devices around the house? As more of our everyday electronics start to rely on this new model or owner-responsibility, we could have dozens more devices to update in a very short time. This will become a nightmare of firmware management.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a problem? What if one day you have to call you boss and tell her/him that you'll have to miss the staff meeting because your car didn't get it's firmware update last night. Better yet, what if you get the dreaded BSOD in the middle rush-hour traffic? I mean most people still ignore the check engine light, but can you really ignore a memory-dump screen on the console?

While we'd be loath to admit it, this may well be the reason so many of us like analog simplicity so much more....

We all better go wireless ASAP. That's the great thing about the PS3. It tells me when it needs an upgrade and just asks me if it's OK to go ahead with it. It's a polite little thing.:thumbsup:

[Woochifer]

Doesn't it bother anyone how often firmware updates are needed? I mean some of these are for new features, I know, but a lot of these are fixes for problems that come up along the way. In essence we're all beta-testers. It used to be the case that there was an understanding that certain industries should not be hobbled by such shoddy manufacturing, and audio was in that category. I guess that is no more.

Are you talking about the Samsung BD players, or are you generalizing a specific problem with a first generation BD player to demonize the entire industry?

Last time I checked, the second and third generation players from most of the other major companies like Sony and Panasonic had minimal performance and compatibility issues out of the box. Fourth generation players were announced at CES, so the early Blu-ray issues aren't applicable to what's coming out now. Samsung's longstanding problems with their BD players are more the exception than the rule.

You can pretty much say the same thing about just about any first generation digital device. The first generation DVD players had all sorts of compatibility issues, and none of them could output a DTS audio stream. Many of them did not have the flash-enabled firmware that allows for code corrections, and early adopters paid ~$800 for the privilege.


Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the need for keeping products up to date and to be able to add new features, but with these BR players it seems to be needed every other week. To me that smacks of shoddy manufacturing. What's next, virus scanners for BR players? I'm waiting to see the first mallware app to hit these internet-connected systems. If possible, I'd focus on those products that need the fewest firmware updates over time.

If you don't want to be saddled with potential compatibility issues that will inevitably crop up as a new media format moves forward, then don't be an early adopter. Early DVD players had all sorts of issues with handling basic playback on certain discs, audio bitstreaming, seamless branching, dual layer playback, and other features. This is not like the CD audio format, where the functionality was very limited.

These video formats are multimedia programming platforms, and many of the early DVD issues originated from poorly coded disc releases. The DVD FAQ used to maintain a list of disc releases that had specific compatibility issues with certain DVD players and/or processors. Very often, these issues were the fault of the programmers who did not follow the guidelines. I don't see how the situation with Blu-ray is any different, except that it seems that problems with BD players are a lot easier to correct than they were with DVD players.

With the PS3, I don't see how its frequent firmware updates can possibly be regarded as a negative. That unit's Blu-ray functionality was always top notch, and the firmware updates continually improved its DVD playback and added new features and capabilities at no cost to the customer. At the time the PS3 came out, Blu-ray players were still first generation. The firmware updates made the PS3 fully compliant with Profile 1.1 and now Profile 2.0.

And if you're buying a new standalone BD player, how do you know how frequent the firmware updates will be if it's a new model?

[nightflier]

Wooch, I'm not speaking about any specific player or format, but more a general sense that this industry is getting more uncertain. Firmware updates, BSODs, viruses, mallware, etc. used to be something only people with computers used to have to worry about, but now it looks like it will affect everyone who has home electronics. I'm just asking if this is a good thing.

If anything, it goes in the opposite direction from the whole back-to-basics, locally-built-&-supported, and less complicated trends that a down economy should tend towards. Personally, I've lived with this reality since my first C-64 computer, so I'm OK with it, I suppose. I just don't know if we're going a little too far in that direction, and that this may be the wrong time to be going there.

That said, Samsung does seem to be slipping somewhat compared to the competition. Reliability and support have not been their strong suits. Is this a sign that the company is slipping in other ways as well?

[musicman1999]

Hi Bill, it is good to see you again. I thought the 51 had on board decoding. How do you get updates from Pioneer?

hey

i am afraid you need to download and burn to a disc. have done one so far, no issues.

bill

[musicman1999]

Good to see you around bill.

thanks man, think i will hang around a little more than i have been, see whats going on.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

I talked with one of the shops here in town about which players they carried now and mentioned why I was looking to replace mine. He told me that software compatibility was NOT just a Samsung problem. They occasionally have discs that won't play in their machines as well. Here's a guy who could have gone for the sale, so I'm inclined to believe what he said. I talked to Samsung tonight and apparently there is a firmware update that came out in Dec. I don't have. So I will try that and see what happens.

I am not aware of any reliability problems with Samsung. What have you heard?

NF, a long while back I started a thread with the similar mind set as yours. I have changed my view. As many have said, it's not the manufacturing so much. It's a lack of standards. I believe there is less cooperation on products these days. Too many companies want to do things their way and not compromise. Time and time again we see the results of this but the companies never seem to learn. Probably because the CEO gets his bonus no matter what. As Wooch pointed out on my thread, at least we have a way to update now, beats the heck out of tossing it or living with an issue.

I was reading a podcast transcript from a show with one of the Dolby guys and apparently some of our Blu problems is do to a lack of a standard way to implement Java scripts. It's more of a software issue. Really when you look at it from a manufacturer's point of view, we're pretty darn lucky they are willing to go in and write these firmware updates. I mean they want to sell a product and to do so you have to provide service but that has to be a pain to go in and write a fix for every movie you hear about that won't play in your machine.

I hear in gens to come they will have Y fi.

[Mr Peabody]

I found that transcript again:
http://www.dolby.com/dolbycast/transcripts/blu-ray-interactivity-joe-rice.html

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I'm not speaking about any specific player or format, but more a general sense that this industry is getting more uncertain. Firmware updates, BSODs, viruses, mallware, etc. used to be something only people with computers used to have to worry about, but now it looks like it will affect everyone who has home electronics. I'm just asking if this is a good thing.

Where are you seeing reports of BD players with BSODs, viruses, or malware? The issues with BD players have been mostly limited to their inability to play certain discs or access certain features. At least now, with most BD players using flash ROMs, the firmware can be updated fairly easily. In the infancy of the DVD format, you had players with firmware issues that could not be corrected unless you exchanged the player or a service tech replaced certain components.


If anything, it goes in the opposite direction from the whole back-to-basics, locally-built-&-supported, and less complicated trends that a down economy should tend towards. Personally, I've lived with this reality since my first C-64 computer, so I'm OK with it, I suppose. I just don't know if we're going a little too far in that direction, and that this may be the wrong time to be going there.

When has technology EVER gone "back-to-basics"? It's always been a game of adding features and making things faster and smaller.

Blu-ray players use Java as the programming language, but they are not asked to perform the wide range of tasks that PCs are asked to. Plus, most of the executable code for a BD player comes with a movie that customers purchase or rent, and those are usually known sources. It's not like you'll be playing files from hundreds of different locations like you do with web surfing on a computer. If you want to get into feature bloat, security holes, and complexity run rampant, look no further than your computer desktop.


That said, Samsung does seem to be slipping somewhat compared to the competition. Reliability and support have not been their strong suits. Is this a sign that the company is slipping in other ways as well?

Again, are you talking about their BD players or are you generalizing about the entire company? Their BD players, like everybody else's, have improved since the first generation models. Where they fall short is in how often they update the firmware to address new incompatibilities that crop up in the market. But, as far as their TVs, cellphones, memory chips, and media players go, their reliability and support have been solid for years.

[Woochifer]

NF, a long while back I started a thread with the similar mind set as yours. I have changed my view. As many have said, it's not the manufacturing so much. It's a lack of standards. I believe there is less cooperation on products these days. Too many companies want to do things their way and not compromise. Time and time again we see the results of this but the companies never seem to learn. Probably because the CEO gets his bonus no matter what. As Wooch pointed out on my thread, at least we have a way to update now, beats the heck out of tossing it or living with an issue.

I was reading a podcast transcript from a show with one of the Dolby guys and apparently some of our Blu problems is do to a lack of a standard way to implement Java scripts. It's more of a software issue. Really when you look at it from a manufacturer's point of view, we're pretty darn lucky they are willing to go in and write these firmware updates. I mean they want to sell a product and to do so you have to provide service but that has to be a pain to go in and write a fix for every movie you hear about that won't play in your machine.

I hear in gens to come they will have Y fi.

As I mentioned, this isn't much different than the problems with early DVD players. Incompatibilities can originate with the players, or the coding, or even issues that crop up during disc replication. Indeed, there are no hard and fast rules on how a studio must code the discs. You know that the video and audio files will be encoded using one of the standard codecs, but anything beyond that is up to the studio and/or disc producer. It took years before the DVD format ironed out a lot of its compatibility issues.

[nightflier]

Where are you seeing reports of BD players with BSODs, viruses, or malware? The issues with BD players have been mostly limited to their inability to play certain discs or access certain features.

Well, didn't we just all agree that these devices, much more than the DVD players before them, are starting to become more and more computerized? Try this one on for size, unplug that fancy player in the middle of a firmware update: welcome to your new doorstop. And as far as viruses, it's only a matter of time. It will start as ad-ware, then morph to mall-ware, and eventually it will be viruses. Haven't there already been a few scares with xBox hacks? I know of several proof-of-concept scripts that can hijack certain cell-phones, and these have no where near the processing capability or memory capacity as BR players, not to mention that cell phones are not continuously connected to the internet, like most of today's BR players are. It's not a question of if, but of when.



At least now, with most BD players using flash ROMs, the firmware can be updated fairly easily. In the infancy of the DVD format, you had players with firmware issues that could not be corrected unless you exchanged the player or a service tech replaced certain components.

But let's be realistic here, how many people today have to install a firmware update on a regular DVD player they pick up at CC or BB? Sure there were early DVD players that had issues, but for many years now, the DVD player has been pretty trouble free.


When has technology EVER gone "back-to-basics"? It's always been a game of adding features and making things faster and smaller.

I was referring to the industry having to go back to basics because of the economy. A trend towards complexity is not in synch with a down economy. I would even go so far as to say that feature bloat is falling into disfavor with the public as unnecessary extravagance - even reviewers are starting to sing that tune. Consumers that don't have a lot to spend will opt for the simpler device that just gets the job done rather than spend more for features that they won't use as often, no matter how cutting edge they may be.


Blu-ray players use Java as the programming language, but they are not asked to perform the wide range of tasks that PCs are asked to. Plus, most of the executable code for a BD player comes with a movie that customers purchase or rent, and those are usually known sources.

Java is very hackable, and the content also comes from those downloaded firmware updates. Are you really sure nothing is going on behind the scenes when your computer is permanently connected to the internet? So how about your BR player, which we're already established is becoming more a computer, right?


It's not like you'll be playing files from hundreds of different locations like you do with web surfing on a computer.

I seriously doubt this is how the marketing departments at Sony, iTunes, and Netflix are looking at it. They would like nothing more than to turn that permanently connected Java server into your source for entertainment, no matter what type it is. Take that profile 2.0, for example, when you're connected to multiple users and these people can send files to your player from theirs. How secure do you think that is? Even if you're connected to just "a few friends", they are also connected to "a few friends" who are then also connected to "a few friends"... Pretty soon, you're connected to a whole lot of friends' friends you really don't know very well and who may be very far away. Here's another thought: how much storage does profile 2.0 require? How much data is that? And collectively, how much data is that with all your "friends"? And how much of that data is "suspicious"?


If you want to get into feature bloat, security holes, and complexity run rampant, look no further than your computer desktop.

Sorry, you're speaking to a Linux user. While it also has its warts, they are nothing like the puss-filled infected goiters in MS Windows.


Again, are you talking about their BD players or are you generalizing about the entire company? Their BD players, like everybody else's, have improved since the first generation models. Where they fall short is in how often they update the firmware to address new incompatibilities that crop up in the market. But, as far as their TVs, cellphones, memory chips, and media players go, their reliability and support have been solid for years.

Samsung has several issues. They are consistently rated lower than their competitors in consumer reports for service and reliability. Their financials are also not as strong as their competitors. Finally, the engineering behind their products is consistently below their competitors. For example, they make great TVs, but they run hotter, require more repairs, and consume more energy. While by themselves these issues are not excessive, in a market where the margins are often quite thin, they need to make better products. And while the heat and energy are important from a green perspective, these factors also play into their reliability over time.

I also think that Samsung fares better when marketing their products in B&M stores, where the netter picture, faster load times, and other features they may be able to bring to the table can be demonstrated. But as B&Ms start to become scarcer and online is the new market place, reputation becomes much more important and Samsung is slightly behind there. Professional reviewers won't help them here either, because those will be sure to mention the shortcomings, even if minor, and that is what the consumers will remember when making their online purchase decision. Of course the closing of CC, one of their major B&M retailers, isn't going to be good for their bottom line either.

[Mr Peabody]

NF, I'm not sure where you are getting your info. I'm not a fanboy of Samsung but I think you are exaggerating your negative view of them. Samsung's Blackjack cellphone was #1 in consumer reports beating out even the I-phone. I haven't seen any bad press either on their TV's. They always seem to be in the top few if not #1.

[nightflier]

Mr.P,

There have been several reviews of Samsung TVs that, while still generally positive, pointed out the heat and energy issues. Also Curtchfield provides energy consumption numbers for most of the TVs they sell, and the Samsungs are not as good as the Panasonics or Sonys, although they do seem to be better than Toshiba's TVs. Consumer Reports has rated Samsung lower than its competitors in reliability and service for a number of their more popular products.

Granted, this is hardly quantified information, but it does give the general impression that Samsung is not as popular as its main competitors in several industry segments. That type of stygma is not something Samsung would want as more B&M stores close and the customers increasingly rely on these reports when choosing brands.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that Samsung makes excellent products (I was pretty darn close to purchasing one of their LCDs not too long ago). That said, a negative review or comment here & there could have serious implications for the brand. Samsung typically sells at a small premium because it does have some excellent specs, but the company competes in very competitive markets where brands like Vizio and LG are nipping at its heels.

[Woochifer]

Well, didn't we just all agree that these devices, much more than the DVD players before them, are starting to become more and more computerized? Try this one on for size, unplug that fancy player in the middle of a firmware update: welcome to your new doorstop. And as far as viruses, it's only a matter of time. It will start as ad-ware, then morph to mall-ware, and eventually it will be viruses. Haven't there already been a few scares with xBox hacks? I know of several proof-of-concept scripts that can hijack certain cell-phones, and these have no where near the processing capability or memory capacity as BR players, not to mention that cell phones are not continuously connected to the internet, like most of today's BR players are. It's not a question of if, but of when.

And this is mere speculation on your part. I was asking you if BSOD, malware, and similar issues have actually cropped up with BD players, since you were talking about those issues as if they already afflict BD players.


But let's be realistic here, how many people today have to install a firmware update on a regular DVD player they pick up at CC or BB? Sure there were early DVD players that had issues, but for many years now, the DVD player has been pretty trouble free.

Again, you're changing the subject. The firmware issues that you see with BD players right now are no different than what you saw with the early DVD players. Are you saying that with a format in its third year, the firmware should be at a level of stability comparable to the DVD format, which is in its 14th year? Or are you unaware that current BD players are only in their third generation?


I was referring to the industry having to go back to basics because of the economy. A trend towards complexity is not in synch with a down economy. I would even go so far as to say that feature bloat is falling into disfavor with the public as unnecessary extravagance - even reviewers are starting to sing that tune. Consumers that don't have a lot to spend will opt for the simpler device that just gets the job done rather than spend more for features that they won't use as often, no matter how cutting edge they may be.

And again, you're ignoring that the additional features with CE hardware is typically accompanied by price declines. By year's end, most BD players will be Profile 2.0 compliant with average prices projected to decline to about $150. This would be more than $100 less than the current average price, while providing higher performance, more features, and likely fewer compatibility issues. How is getting a better player for less money "not in synch with a down economy"?


Java is very hackable, and the content also comes from those downloaded firmware updates. Are you really sure nothing is going on behind the scenes when your computer is permanently connected to the internet? So how about your BR player, which we're already established is becoming more a computer, right?

And how many consumers will choose to enable that internet connection? Maybe with a wi-fi connection, the connection will be permanent. But, unless you know how the firmware gets updated and how files get executed, your point about the hackability of a BD player is again pure speculation.


I seriously doubt this is how the marketing departments at Sony, iTunes, and Netflix are looking at it. They would like nothing more than to turn that permanently connected Java server into your source for entertainment, no matter what type it is. Take that profile 2.0, for example, when you're connected to multiple users and these people can send files to your player from theirs. How secure do you think that is? Even if you're connected to just "a few friends", they are also connected to "a few friends" who are then also connected to "a few friends"... Pretty soon, you're connected to a whole lot of friends' friends you really don't know very well and who may be very far away. Here's another thought: how much storage does profile 2.0 require? How much data is that? And collectively, how much data is that with all your "friends"? And how much of that data is "suspicious"?

And those features you mention are outside of the Profile 2.0 specs. BD Live enables interactivity, but it's not a file exchanging medium.


Samsung has several issues. They are consistently rated lower than their competitors in consumer reports for service and reliability. Their financials are also not as strong as their competitors.

Like I asked, in what product areas, ALL of them? Last time I checked, Consumer Reports does not rate OEM components like optical drives, memory chips, and LCD panels -- products where Samsung ranks at or near the top in global sales.

And when talking about Samsung's financials, are you comparing apples to apples in terms of the time period?


Finally, the engineering behind their products is consistently below their competitors.

That explains why Sony lets Samsung do all of their LCD panel R&D? Sony got forced out of the LCD OEM market because companies like Samsung had moved so far ahead of them in panel development.


I also think that Samsung fares better when marketing their products in B&M stores, where the netter picture, faster load times, and other features they may be able to bring to the table can be demonstrated. But as B&Ms start to become scarcer and online is the new market place, reputation becomes much more important and Samsung is slightly behind there.

Behind who? On the AVS Forum, Samsung's plasma TVs are now very often regarded as equal to the Panasonics, and their newest LCD TVs are very often mentioned among the best on the market right now.


Professional reviewers won't help them here either, because those will be sure to mention the shortcomings, even if minor, and that is what the consumers will remember when making their online purchase decision.

So, why is then that Samsung's A950 series ranked among the highest rated LCD TVs last year on just about every review site? And if Samsung is so festooned with shortcomings, then why do they rank #1 in global TV sales, #1 in LCD panel shipments, and #2 in plasma panel shipments?


Of course the closing of CC, one of their major B&M retailers, isn't going to be good for their bottom line either.

CC is a major retailer, but far from irreplaceable. It's not like they had any territorial exclusivity with Samsung products. Sales that formerly went to CC will now go to Best Buy, Costco, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart, and any number of local stores that carry Samsung products.

[Mr Peabody]

Some years back I wouldn't have bought Samsung for a big ticket item. From my perspective they started out as an entry or budget manufacturer and now can compete with the likes of Sony and Panasonic. So I guess it's how you look at it. Sony has a good rep and can't seem to do no wrong but I've had enough bad products from them that they are toward the bottom of any future purchase brand list. I have to accept that Samsung can put out a sub par product but you also should accept they aren't alone by no means.

NF, you have me wondering now. We have to pay big money every year to keep virus protection and all other kinds of protection up to date, if we are going to have home entertainment products hooked to the web what is going to protect them from these things? Computer is definitely not my strong point but if products can be hooked to the web with no protection you have to wonder if this virus protection isn't some kind of racket. Or, maybe the viruses are Windows enviroment and home entertainment are something else. But I bet if some one was so inclined the something else would be just as vonerable.

[nightflier]

And this is mere speculation on your part. I was asking you if BSOD, malware, and similar issues have actually cropped up with BD players, since you were talking about those issues as if they already afflict BD players.

Well then you misunderstood. I said that they could one day crop up there. Granted, I was being facetious about the car example, but the hackability of BR players isn't too far off and thus neither is the potential for abuse. It's my prediction.


Again, you're changing the subject. The firmware issues that you see with BD players right now are no different than what you saw with the early DVD players. Are you saying that with a format in its third year, the firmware should be at a level of stability comparable to the DVD format, which is in its 14th year? Or are you unaware that current BD players are only in their third generation?

I didn't say there was a definite time-frame, I'm just saying it's not what I'm expecting and times have changed. Back when DVD players were 3 years old, there was no internet and permanently connected systems what took a few years to settle down then should not take so long now, especially considering how much more common firmware updates are today. More importantly, what I see is a trend towards more firmware dependency over shorter time spans, very much unlike the trend away from that back when DVDs were a new technology. Back then the hope was to eventually eliminate firmware issues, now the trend seems to accelerate their frequency and necessity.


And again, you're ignoring that the additional features with CE hardware is typically accompanied by price declines. By year's end, most BD players will be Profile 2.0 compliant with average prices projected to decline to about $150. This would be more than $100 less than the current average price, while providing higher performance, more features, and likely fewer compatibility issues. How is getting a better player for less money "not in synch with a down economy"?

Well I will respectfully disagree with that. I think that additional features are going to be less popular as people look to simplify their lives as a result of struggling through this economic downturn. But we won't know that 'til it happens, so we'll just have to wait it out.


And how many consumers will choose to enable that internet connection? Maybe with a wi-fi connection, the connection will be permanent. But, unless you know how the firmware gets updated and how files get executed, your point about the hackability of a BD player is again pure speculation.

I'll have to dig around the web, but I distinctly remember reading that there were already proof-of-concept hacks out there. By the way, hacking firmware is a piece of cake, all it takes is a working knowledge of machine language and there's a lot of hackers who can do it. I've hacked firmware on computers myself. Considering all the hacking tools that are already available, it hardly takes a genius to get into it, manipulate it and re-design it.


And those features you mention are outside of the Profile 2.0 specs. BD Live enables interactivity, but it's not a file exchanging medium.

Not entirely. The spec only specifies guidelines, but not limits. Any capable programmer, especially one with malicious intent, can extend the capabilities beyond what the spec recommends. More importantly, this will develop first with legitimate uses like added content, then it will devolve into adware, and not much later into spyware and viruses. Don't get me wrong, Java is a beautifully structured language with practically unlimited features, but in the wrong hands it can be particularly dangerous. And as far as file exchange, that is precisely what Profile 2.0 does - if you can send & receive text messages, then you can also send & receive scripts and well, it's pretty evolutionary from there.


Like I asked, in what product areas, ALL of them? Last time I checked, Consumer Reports does not rate OEM components like optical drives, memory chips, and LCD panels -- products where Samsung ranks at or near the top in global sales.

I was referring to the consumer products that they do review. If Samsung's brad & butter is in OEM products, then that's a different story.


And when talking about Samsung's financials, are you comparing apples to apples in terms of the time period?

I don't understand what you're inferring, here.


That explains why Sony lets Samsung do all of their LCD panel R&D? Sony got forced out of the LCD OEM market because companies like Samsung had moved so far ahead of them in panel development.

That may very well be but Sony's LCDs are more energy efficient and produce less heat nonetheless. So either they also purchase OEM parts from other manufacturers or they re-engineer what they get from Samsung.


Behind who? On the AVS Forum, Samsung's plasma TVs are now very often regarded as equal to the Panasonics, and their newest LCD TVs are very often mentioned among the best on the market right now.

Yes, everybody raves about the latest Samsung products and the fantastic performance. But when it comes to older products or their lower-tier stuff, the accolades go to Sony, Panasonic, and others. Also, these forums don't consider the heat and energy issues, which over time also affect reliability.


So, why is then that Samsung's A950 series ranked among the highest rated LCD TVs last year on just about every review site?

See my previous comment.


And if Samsung is so festooned with shortcomings, then why do they rank #1 in global TV sales, #1 in LCD panel shipments, and #2 in plasma panel shipments?

People don't always look at the less sexy factors like longer-term reliability issues. People are always enamored with the latest and greatest, and Samsung doesn't short-change on features or performance, but that comes at a price. Now I'm certainly not saying they are pathetic, but this is still a very competitive market and there are issues.


CC is a major retailer, but far from irreplaceable. It's not like they had any territorial exclusivity with Samsung products. Sales that formerly went to CC will now go to Best Buy, Costco, Sam's Club, Target, Walmart, and any number of local stores that carry Samsung products.

Well BB, despite it's strong financials last quarter is still laying off people, you said yourself that Costco is considering dropping CE altogether. Target Sam's and Wallmart only carry the lower end products from Samsung. The fact is that there are fewer and fewer B&M stores out there for CE products and this market will likely continue to move online. And online, the reputation is much more important because it can so easily be accessed, even on the same computer screen as your shopping cart.

Bottom line: Samsung may be #1 in certain areas, but it also has issues. I can probably find just as many links to negative reviews as you can find positive ones, but that's not really representative anyhow. I'm not dismissing the brand outright, but I will say that Samsung strengths such as additional features, superior picture, loading speed, etc, are much more impressive in a live demo than as posted in a spec list on a web page.

[Mr Peabody]

It is interesting that while CC is out of business and BB is laying off, Amazon had a record Christmas selling season. Costco who sells memberships to supposedly give the members a discount can't compete with electronics and movies. I don't know if it's true but I was told Costco's margin on all products is 10%, if there isn't 10% to be made on a product then I don't see selling it either. But, if they sold high end products for 10% above cost we'd all be in there.

[pixelthis]

Some years back I wouldn't have bought Samsung for a big ticket item. From my perspective they started out as an entry or budget manufacturer and now can compete with the likes of Sony and Panasonic. So I guess it's how you look at it. Sony has a good rep and can't seem to do no wrong but I've had enough bad products from them that they are toward the bottom of any future purchase brand list. I have to accept that Samsung can put out a sub par product but you also should accept they aren't alone by no means.

NF, you have me wondering now. We have to pay big money every year to keep virus protection and all other kinds of protection up to date, if we are going to have home entertainment products hooked to the web what is going to protect them from these things? Computer is definitely not my strong point but if products can be hooked to the web with no protection you have to wonder if this virus protection isn't some kind of racket. Or, maybe the viruses are Windows enviroment and home entertainment are something else. But I bet if some one was so inclined the something else would be just as vonerable.


Your veiw of Samsung is rather parochial and shows how consumer minded our country has become.
Samsung is a major industrial giant, and have been for decades.
If you have a CD/DVD drive in anything odds are Samsung made it
Ships, high tech, you name it, Samsung makes it.
The one thing I have fault with Samsung is the way their industrial quality sometimes leaks through their consumer products.
AS for a virus infecting the firmware of a consumer device, dont see how it could happen.
Their OS is different, usually, and would require a specifically designed bug,
and then you would have to breech the super secure connection that is the only
time something is allowed into your machine.
And for what? For what purpose?.
As for the analog reaction to everything becoming computerized, some people didnt stop with horses when cars appeared until they had to.
Some people are contrary, its their nature.
But teh computerization of information has happened, the genie is outta the bottle...
AND ITS NOT GOING BACK IN.:1:

[Woochifer]

I didn't say there was a definite time-frame, I'm just saying it's not what I'm expecting and times have changed. Back when DVD players were 3 years old, there was no internet and permanently connected systems what took a few years to settle down then should not take so long now, especially considering how much more common firmware updates are today. More importantly, what I see is a trend towards more firmware dependency over shorter time spans, very much unlike the trend away from that back when DVDs were a new technology. Back then the hope was to eventually eliminate firmware issues, now the trend seems to accelerate their frequency and necessity.

Actually, I think the opposite will be true as BD players move into the 4th generation models, and disc producers figure out how to author BDs that don't trip up on older players. The big firmware issues with DVD players occurred during the early years of the format. You rarely hear about disc compatibility issues anymore with DVD players.


Well I will respectfully disagree with that. I think that additional features are going to be less popular as people look to simplify their lives as a result of struggling through this economic downturn. But we won't know that 'til it happens, so we'll just have to wait it out.

In an economic downturn, people get back to basics and I interpret that as getting greater value for the money. Home entertainment is actually one of the areas that analysts project will grow during an economic downturn because home-based activities cost less than going out.


I'll have to dig around the web, but I distinctly remember reading that there were already proof-of-concept hacks out there. By the way, hacking firmware is a piece of cake, all it takes is a working knowledge of machine language and there's a lot of hackers who can do it. I've hacked firmware on computers myself. Considering all the hacking tools that are already available, it hardly takes a genius to get into it, manipulate it and re-design it.

The hacks were to break the copy protection so that HD torrent files could be created. This primarily involved the software-based BD-ROM players, which had substandard security for the encryption keys. Malware's not going to spread unless that hack either requires user intervention or comes packaged with a BD. The range of activity and exposure using a BD player is far less than what an average computer user encounters just surfing the web.


That may very well be but Sony's LCDs are more energy efficient and produce less heat nonetheless. So either they also purchase OEM parts from other manufacturers or they re-engineer what they get from Samsung.

Actually, Sony and Samsung LCD panels are made on the same assembly lines at jointly owned facilities, and Samsung producing and doing the R&D on the panels. I believe that a lot of the TVs are also made at jointly owned facilities. Samsung saved Sony's backside in the flat panel market. Sony was heavily invested in LCoS and CRT RPTVs, but when the market went to flat panels, Sony needed a development partner just to stay in the game with flat panels. They weren't going to make a lot of money just rebadging somebody else's LCD and plasma TVs.


Yes, everybody raves about the latest Samsung products and the fantastic performance. But when it comes to older products or their lower-tier stuff, the accolades go to Sony, Panasonic, and others. Also, these forums don't consider the heat and energy issues, which over time also affect reliability.

Sony has been partnered with Samsung on the LCD side for at least four years now.


People don't always look at the less sexy factors like longer-term reliability issues. People are always enamored with the latest and greatest, and Samsung doesn't short-change on features or performance, but that comes at a price. Now I'm certainly not saying they are pathetic, but this is still a very competitive market and there are issues.

Samsung's TV reliability has remained about the same for years. The difference is that the rest of the industry greatly improved. Their reliability used to be near the top of the industry, but they've fallen back into the middle of the pack because everybody else made moved up.


Well BB, despite it's strong financials last quarter is still laying off people, you said yourself that Costco is considering dropping CE altogether.

And if you read the articles, those layoffs do not affect on-site store employees. It's primarily at their corporate headquarters. BB can see the deteriorating market conditions, and they're adapting. CC went out of business because they did not.


Target Sam's and Wallmart only carry the lower end products from Samsung. The fact is that there are fewer and fewer B&M stores out there for CE products and this market will likely continue to move online. And online, the reputation is much more important because it can so easily be accessed, even on the same computer screen as your shopping cart.

And online transactions still account for far less than 10% of all retail purchases, and this includes websites hosted by the major retail chains. There are fewer B&M stores, but that also means that the surviving stores just grow bigger and bigger. Market consolidation in the B&M field does not mean that the bulk of the market suddenly shifts online. The vast majority of consumers still prefer to deal with a physical point of purchase, despite what myopic tech editors (many of whom were already hyping up the demise of the retail store during the dotcom boom) would lead people to believe.


Bottom line: Samsung may be #1 in certain areas, but it also has issues. I can probably find just as many links to negative reviews as you can find positive ones, but that's not really representative anyhow. I'm not dismissing the brand outright, but I will say that Samsung strengths such as additional features, superior picture, loading speed, etc, are much more impressive in a live demo than as posted in a spec list on a web page.

Nobody's perfect, but Samsung must be doing something right if their market share is #1 overall. I don't see how the sales rankings on web sales would deviate significantly from what gets sold at stores. Samsung's specs are also not all too different from the competition, and they do a ton of marketing. Compared to the Japanese CE giants, Samsung is also currently in an advantageous position because their currency is not especially strong compared to the yen. That's why Samsung and LG are not projecting multibillion losses this year like Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi.

[nightflier]

Wooch, you know a lot more about the TV industry, and you bring up very good points. I'm not so sure that Samsung is as solid as you claim, but I also have less information to go on. Perhaps you're right, and for Samsung's sake, I sure hope so. But even with consolidation, it's still a very competitive market with small margins, so no matter what the companies in it will have to continue to innovate.

Regarding the economy, I don't agree that additional features is what people want in a down economy. This is not saying that the CE sector won't do well in this economy, but I'm going to stand by my belief that feature bloat will abate. Call it human nature, but when money is tight, people don't want to have to worry about extra complexity, they just want the damn thing to work so that they can enjoy it and perhaps temporarily put their worries aside.

Regarding the risks, I still think this is significant for CE gear that is continually connected to the internet. I've seen hacks and back-door scripts on computers that would scare the most savvy engineer. They require very little memory, processing power, and speed, but they can do great damage. BR players are still very new, but I still maintain that as this technology matures, the risks will increase. I can also go into detail about the ways that Profile 2.0 and Firmware are linked and how this can be exploited, but this isn't the place. Anyhow, let's wait and see what happens.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know what percentage of sales internet vs B&M would be but it says something when B&M are going out of business and cutting back while Amazon has a record sales year. It is also interesting that a news story came out saying movie box office sales have been up significantly. I find that odd because, one, the economy, and second, I couldn't even tell you a single movie at the theater now. I guess I shouldn't admit that, it just adds to the evidence that I am out here somewhere in left field.

I think the CE companies mentallity is that people want features and some people may think they do but how many of them can operate the item when they get it home is the question. You get on here and I think we get a sense of normalcy from one another but if you all have friends that aren't audio/video enthusiasts, just what we'd call "Average Joe" you will get a taste of reality. Many of the people I talk to on the bus or around work don't have HD, don't buy the cable higher features like DVR or On Demand. I find myself sounding like a salesman because I'm just trying to educate them as to what's out there. I am in disbelief as to how many people just want a picture, to watch something and don't even care about resolution. Of course, a lot of guys for some reason are really into big screens but fall short on the quality aspect. With all that being said I'm sure this differs with age group and geographical location and economic stature. But maybe not, maybe it's just exposure and priority.

[Mr Peabody]

When I switch to bitstream I noticed I didn't see "Tru-HD" indicator come on. When I use PCM I hear an improvement but speakers balances are off some, I guess the Marantz doesn't do any post processing. You can't have everything. I checked the specs of the 1200 again and it says "NO" it does not bitstream any HD audio format. I could sware I read it did. I guess there was some reason I kept my player in PCM. Anyway the fog has lifted. I'm going to have to make a change. I want to be able to enjoy HD audio and control it. As in an earlier post I really am not sure which way to go in a player. The guys offered to let me borrow a player. I can't see paying the money for a Marantz 7003 when it lacks so much features. Also I wonder on these bitstream only players if they can still pass uncompressed PCM. I'm not talking any HD audio, I mean the original plain uncompressed PCM that came on some earlier Blu-ray movies. I'm leaning toward maybe bringing home a BD-05 but even that is more expensive and lacks in features compared to the s550. At this time I don't have internet by my HT system but I really need to get a wireless network system set up. Firmware upgrades would be so much easier and the method I was using to network for my daughter's computer is failing me. I'm thinking 2.0 should be something to get even if I'm not ready for it now.

Any direction would be appreciated and if anyone knows where I can find some Blu-ray reviews other than CNET, that would really be appreciated.

You all probably remember that upsampling of standard DVD is important. I really wonder if these tests on the discs really equate to good viewing. The Pioneer didn't do so well on standard DVD test discs but Bill says his has a very good picture.

[pixelthis]

When I switch to bitstream I noticed I didn't see "Tru-HD" indicator come on. When I use PCM I hear an improvement but speakers balances are off some, I guess the Marantz doesn't do any post processing. You can't have everything. I checked the specs of the 1200 again and it says "NO" it does not bitstream any HD audio format. I could sware I read it did. I guess there was some reason I kept my player in PCM. Anyway the fog has lifted. I'm going to have to make a change. I want to be able to enjoy HD audio and control it. As in an earlier post I really am not sure which way to go in a player. The guys offered to let me borrow a player. I can't see paying the money for a Marantz 7003 when it lacks so much features. Also I wonder on these bitstream only players if they can still pass uncompressed PCM. I'm not talking any HD audio, I mean the original plain uncompressed PCM that came on some earlier Blu-ray movies. I'm leaning toward maybe bringing home a BD-05 but even that is more expensive and lacks in features compared to the s550. At this time I don't have internet by my HT system but I really need to get a wireless network system set up. Firmware upgrades would be so much easier and the method I was using to network for my daughter's computer is failing me. I'm thinking 2.0 should be something to get even if I'm not ready for it now.

Any direction would be appreciated and if anyone knows where I can find some Blu-ray reviews other than CNET, that would really be appreciated.

You all probably remember that upsampling of standard DVD is important. I really wonder if these tests on the discs really equate to good viewing. The Pioneer didn't do so well on standard DVD test discs but Bill says his has a very good picture.

JUST remember when buying Korean, the govt there seized the korean stock market a few weeks ago, and North Korea is misbehaving, I AM JUST SAYING.
I would go Panasonic, its a quality company and I was reading that their players have decoders and do bitstream.
Dont know why playback of SD DVD is so important to you, its never going to look
that good after you've watched a Blu disc.
Bout all I can say on that score is that my Sony BLU does fine on SD DVD.:1:

[02audionoob]

I don't know if this helps, but most standard DVDs look very nice on my Sony BDP-S350.

[nightflier]

I know this is a minor factor, but my decision is also swayed by what other brands I have in my system so that the remote can control more than one device. It was one of the reasons I've stuck with Panasonic TVs (my first DVD player was Panasonic, and my PVR was too).

Of course, it helps that Panasonic makes decent players.

[Mr Peabody]

Funny you should mentione that, the guys where I buy most of my stuff in town offered to let me borrow a Marantz 7003. I can't find any reviews and I know it doesn't have the Realto like it's big brother. I can't pass up a free audition though. It will really have to blow me away to pull the trigger. I'm really leaning toward picking up one of those Pioneer bd51's for cheap. It seems with the firmware update it's a great performer and a killer price compared to what it was. My only hesitation is the size of the thing. I like well built but the shelf I have isn't very high. I already had to raise shelves when I got the 8003 which is a bulky preamp.

[pixelthis]

Funny you should mentione that, the guys where I buy most of my stuff in town offered to let me borrow a Marantz 7003. I can't find any reviews and I know it doesn't have the Realto like it's big brother. I can't pass up a free audition though. It will really have to blow me away to pull the trigger. I'm really leaning toward picking up one of those Pioneer bd51's for cheap. It seems with the firmware update it's a great performer and a killer price compared to what it was. My only hesitation is the size of the thing. I like well built but the shelf I have isn't very high. I already had to raise shelves when I got the 8003 which is a bulky preamp.


Five will getcha ten that its "badge engineered"
Finding out the OEM will help a great deal.:1:

[Mr Peabody]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

[pixelthis]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

EXELENT, GM couldn't do a better job of having his train of thought go off the tracks.
NAD went in with Rotel and harmon in building an industrial park in China around the turn of the century, the first batches had parts rattling around in them.
So unless somethings changed they arent Korean, nothing to write home about either.
I was able to tell that Tosh builds players for Onkyo by the menu system(and the lack of any Onkyo quality whatsoever).
I saw an RCA with an identical faceplate and jackplate to a yamaha 5 disc, both probably came from the same factory.
HARD TO TELL SOMETIMES, you used to be bond, JAMES BOND,
figure it out.:1:

[nightflier]

Someone should compile a list of OEM-probable manufacturers. Maybe there is already such a list on the web?

[GMichael]

EXELENT, GM couldn't do a better job of having his train of thought go off the tracks.


Thanks. Having you try to put me down only makes me look all that much better.

[Mr Peabody]

Did I mention the new NAD T587 is supposed to be fast, as fast as a DVD player on loading and playing? This looks like a break through piece. I'm using my daughter's 1500 and letting her use my 1200. She only has a TV and the 1500 at least will bitstream. I don't think the picture is as good but it could be my imagination.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=GMichael]Thanks. Having you try to put me down only makes me look all that much better.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, you know a lot more about the TV industry, and you bring up very good points. I'm not so sure that Samsung is as solid as you claim, but I also have less information to go on. Perhaps you're right, and for Samsung's sake, I sure hope so. But even with consolidation, it's still a very competitive market with small margins, so no matter what the companies in it will have to continue to innovate.

Like I said, Samsung is basically sitting at the top of the heap right now. Qualitywise, they might be perceived as slipping, only because everybody else has improved while they have not. A few years ago, Samsung's failure rate ranked among the lowest in the industry. Now, their failure rate has remained steady, while the average has gone down considerably.


Regarding the economy, I don't agree that additional features is what people want in a down economy. This is not saying that the CE sector won't do well in this economy, but I'm going to stand by my belief that feature bloat will abate. Call it human nature, but when money is tight, people don't want to have to worry about extra complexity, they just want the damn thing to work so that they can enjoy it and perhaps temporarily put their worries aside.

Again, feature bloat just goes with the development of any electronics format. In a down economy, people want lower prices and with Blu-ray players that's what they will get. Just so happens that these lower priced players will also come with Profile 2.0 features that include internet connectivity.


Regarding the risks, I still think this is significant for CE gear that is continually connected to the internet. I've seen hacks and back-door scripts on computers that would scare the most savvy engineer. They require very little memory, processing power, and speed, but they can do great damage. BR players are still very new, but I still maintain that as this technology matures, the risks will increase. I can also go into detail about the ways that Profile 2.0 and Firmware are linked and how this can be exploited, but this isn't the place. Anyhow, let's wait and see what happens.

The risks increase, but there's a huge leap between proof-of-concept exploits and ones that are out in the wild.

[nightflier]

...there's a huge leap between proof-of-concept exploits and ones that are out in the wild.

Actually, I followed two viruses last month that did almost overnight. Granted, these were computer viruses, but it was a very fast turnaround. Another factor is that as the technology matures and more people own it, the time-to-net also gets progressively smaller.

[Woochifer]

That would be nice if there was a source for who builds what. That still isn't much to go on as a manufacturer building for another company has to go by the companies specs. I saw a blogger point out that the new NAD T587 back panel matches an LG model. To contradict myself knowing this unit may be build by LG would give me pause. I've also heard that NAD's DVD players weren't anything to write home about. Remember that's rumor. I had an LG DVD player and hated it. Nothing wrong with reliability, I just didn't like the picture. I returned a defective Sony and opted for the LG. The LG's picture paled in comparison to the Sony. And even though it was "upsampling" you couldn't tell it did anything. Now that I think of it I should have tried 480i and let my Sony TV upsample it. My TV actually gives the best VHS picture I've ever seen. How's that for rambling?

Another issue is that the suppliers constantly change. For components such as DVD or BD drives, there are only a handful of companies that make them. Keep in mind that LG is the #2 OEM optical drive manufacturer in the world (Samsung is #1), so it's inevitable that units from them will wind up in someone else's gear.

But, even if NAD and LG both use LG OEM components, there might be a lot of other differences between the units. For example, Panasonic built DVD players for Denon and Yamaha. All three companies used Panny drives, but the other component specs were different even though Panasonic was the manufacturer in all cases.

[f0rge]

a PS3 is rocketship fast when loading and navigating blurays, but it also has massive hardware and processing power to back it up. my dad has a panny BD-35 and it's unbearably slow in comparison

bluray is always going to be slow because the disk access is much slower than DVD, so until they start beefing up the access speeds or the processing power (so once it gets to the spot on the disk it can read it faster) on standalone players i dont think we'll ever see anything as fast as a DVD player.

unfortunately though it wont do Bitstream HD audio, only PCM. the standard DVD playback is only so-so as well.

being an early adopter i'm glad i went this route rather than a standalone player. there are constant updates and everything always seems to work.

another plus is that it can double as a media streamer for files on your PC

[nightflier]

F0rge, what's the difference in load times?

On another note, why can't BR players be as fast as the PS3? I certainly would expect no less from the more expensive ones like the Denons. I mean for Pete's sake, at that price point, I don't expect anything less than the processing power of a $500 PS3.

[Mr Peabody]

I can't remember if I said it here or not, the NAD T587, that is just out, is supposed to be as fast if not faster than the PS3. I'm looking forward to seeing some feedback on this machine. If it's close to being as good as it looks on paper it will be a true "next gen" player. It's not cheap though at $1,499.00. Sometimes I wonder if these companies just set price based on what people expect to see them at. For example, other than the big Denon with the Realto treatment, which is still way over priced, what could make their players worth the retail price over the less expensive brands with same features. The new Panasonic players are the first I've seen to actually claim an improvement in picture quality.

[Mr Peabody]

Well it was down to the final two, Marantz 7003 or Pioneer BD51. I could have tried either. I opted for the 7003 because it was about half as high and I'm short on space. Apparently who ever wrote the manual didn't know there's a difference between DTS HD & DTS MA. MA was listed no where and alarms went off. The website says it will bitstream it though and, in fact, it does. I like this machine a lot and probably will leave it right where it is on my shelf. I'm hoping maybe some one hear has used more than one machine because I have a couple contraversial things to say.

1. There is a difference between players HD pictures. I put a 1500 in place of my 1200 and I thought the picture was not as good but hesitated, I think I mentioned it here in an earlier post. The 7003 has a better picture than either of the Samsung players on Blu-ray. I have yet to try a DVD. The picture is some how more clear or defined, gives more of a feel you could walk right int the picture yourself. This was amazing.

2. The 1500 bitstreams HD audio, yet the bitstream audio from the 7003 was some how better. This would be pretty difficult to tell by watching a movie but it was apparent when listening to my Jazz sampler. Now I am puzzled and wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't heard it myself, so say what you will. I'd like an explanation. Could Samsung be using such a cheap transport in the 1500 that it would actually make an audible difference? Could Marantz be using some type of better clocking to make such an improvement?

I believe I have also found the theory why some units, even the Cambridge Audio that hasn't even hit the street yet, is still 1.1. Some say that the internet connectivity/circuitry has an adverse effect on performance.

I know the 7003 lacks in features but most of them I don't need. My processor has the decoding I need. I like the looks, the remote is very well laid out, a feature I haven't seen yet in a player "resume play", the 7003 will do it, I can hit stop come back and hit play and the player picks up where it left off , when I hit stop I get a message giving me a couple options which is something I haven't seen before. I first agreed to try the 7003 out of loyalty to my dealer and they had a NIB 51 they were going to match Amazon's price but I really like the 7003 better than I thought I would. This restores some confidence that there is some better performance in these higher priced machines.

Another thing worth mentioning is I have a Blu-ray movie that would not play in my 1200 but it at least played the trailers and got to the menu, my daughter's 1500 which she says is up to date on firmware wouldn't play this movie at all, in fact it showed a message saying "this disc can't be played" after a minute or so of grinding sounds from the transport, well the 7003 plays it. I haven't watch it all the way through yet so I had better knock on wood. I hear the real test for any BR player is the Incredible Hulk. Anyone played this in BR?

[nightflier]

I've been eyeing that NAD BR player that AA is pitching. Any thoughts on that one?

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to see that NAD, it is supposed to be great, it is fully featured and as fast as the
PS3, if not, more so. The NAD dealer in town isn't bringing one in yet and I was ready to buy. I also wasn't sure if I wanted to spend $1,499.00 for a BR player. I didn't realize AA had them or I would have maybe given them a closer look. Well, and there's that rumour they are being built by LG which put me off some. Now that I think of it that makes sense because the new NAD is supposed to play PAL and basically whatever you throw at it and LG made some DVD players like that.

The Pioneer BD51 on Amazon at $288.00 is a great deal. It's supposed to be terrific after the firmware upgrade, it's maintaining a 4.6 rating out of 5. It doesn't have internet connections though.

It's still honeymoon for me and the 7003 but the firmware upgrade is proving to be a challenge. I'm going to have to contact the company for assistance. I finally got a disk burnt after a few days of fiddling around, still not sure if it's right, but when I push the sequence of buttons on the remote to get things started, well, nothing happens. The sequence don't have anything to do with the disk so I don't know if they left a step out or what.