Some Good News For A Change

[pixelthis]

Saw on the home page of this site that BOSE is going to lay off a 1,000 people,
then theres a plea to go and buy some of their overpriced underengineered crap,
like the same 500$ clock radio they have been making for decades.
This company is the Darth Vader of the consumer electronics industry,
taking ideas from others and making mediorce products that only the clueless would buy.
If the collapse of the economy drives these mercendaries out of business
it might actually be worth it.
Then they can get REAL JOB, like working the local drive-thru alongside
RIFED Rich.:1:

[Feanor]

Saw on the home page of this site that BOSE is going to lay off a 1,000 people,
then theres a plea to go and buy some of their overpriced underengineered crap,
like the same 500$ clock radio they have been making for decades.
This company is the Darth Vader of the consumer electronics industry,
taking ideas from others and making mediorce products that only the clueless would buy.
If the collapse of the economy drives these mercendaries out of business
it might actually be worth it.
Then they can get REAL JOB, like working the local drive-thru alongside
RIFED Rich.:1:

Dare we hope that this recession/depression will cull some of the most greedy and incompontent. It might happen (if bailouts aren't too comprehensive); good signs: various large banks and brokerage companies, the General Motors, Bernie Madoff, the Republican Party.

[Groundbeef]

As much as we like to bash Bose, in this economy, I'm not going to celebrate anyone losing their jobs. Just like the vast majority of workers, they have familes, homes, cars, and other expenses.

Although I felt that Bose was overpriced, you must admire the marketing muscle that they are able to flex.

It is unfortunate that people are the first to get the hatchet when investors are not happy that their stock shares are going to be $.01 off of estimates.

[Rich-n-Texas]

So Feanor, are you, like pixass, hoping I get layed off?

[Rich-n-Texas]

One more unemployed worker means one more hole in consumer confidence. Our economy can't survive if consumers don't spend money. And remember Feanor, your economy rides on our economy's coat tails, just like everything else with your country. Your disdain for Americans is sometimes very appaulling.

[Luvin Da Blues]

.....Our economy can't survive if consumers don't spend money......

Thing is, up here in the "Frozen North" is that when the consumer stops spending the government takes up the slack. Unfortunately, this only benefits the people who don't actually need it.

[GMichael]

The CEO's of the nation will still make a good chunk of change. It's the hard working average Joe who will be out of luck.

[atomicAdam]

The CEO's of the nation will still make a good chunk of change. It's the hard working average Joe who will be out of luck.


That is the way it always works.

[Feanor]

So Feanor, are you, like pixass, hoping I get layed off?

You work for TI, right? So not problem (?)

[Feanor]

One more unemployed worker means one more hole in consumer confidence. Our economy can't survive if consumers don't spend money. And remember Feanor, your economy rides on our economy's coat tails, just like everything else with your country. Your disdain for Americans is sometimes very appaulling.

Distain? Not at all. I don't distain Americans at all; on the contrary I'm deeply concerned for them. Like a caring friend I offer good advice.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You offer your opinions. It's up to others to decide whether or not it's good advice.

[Feanor]

The CEO's of the nation will still make a good chunk of change. It's the hard working average Joe who will be out of luck.

It's the poor and humble working man who always suffer first, most, and longest in an economic down turn, (though they were not the ones to blame).

The role of the working man is spend, spend, spend. In this regard the working and middle class have done their damnedest for the U.S. (and Canadian) ecomony. With occassional explicit encouragement by our governments to support the economy, we have typically burdened ourselvers into crushing debt to sustain our live styles despite falling real earnings. This phenomenon has sustained the economy so far but has probably reached its limit.

Whatever the political expediency for Obama, I'm not in favor of tax cuts as the primary means of stimulation. That's an awful lot of people will use the cash to pay down debt or add to personal saving rather than spend on stuff. Spending money to building new infrastructure and greener production is much the better strategy under severe circumstance like the present.

[GMichael]

What people don't seem to realize (or at least don't mention) is that it's no longer just about the national economy. It's a world economy. Countries like China have people who do not live nearly as well as what we have come to expect for ourselves. Their average Joe (or Chang if you prefer) often works long hours each week for less than most of us make in a day or even an hour sometimes. When I was in the Philippines, I saw what being poor really is. We think being poor means that we can't get that car we really wanted or the speakers we were drooling over. Poor there means skipping meals. Doing without health care. Living without electricity or running water. My wife had a better job than most working at a university. She made $20 USD a week. People in countries like this will be very happy to work their butts off for very little cash. The girl who was cleaning our hotel room had a master's degree but was happy to be cleaning our bathroom because, at least she had a job. Our manufacturers have found out that they can get more production for their dollar in these countries. So that's where the money is going. That's why we owe China so much. Until their economy builds up to the point where Mr Average Chang starts demanding more money, we will have trouble putting this gene back in the bottle. I don't see it getting a lot better for us anytime soon (no matter what we do). But we will survive. We may have to do without the latest upgrades, but we will eat.

[bfalls]

The upside is we can start to use the word "LifeStyle" and the decimal ".2" without worry of being sued. What's "Monster" economic status?

[Feanor]

What people don't seem to realize (or at least don't mention) is that it's no longer just about the national economy. It's a world economy. Countries like China have people who do not live nearly as well as what we have come to expect for ourselves. .... Our manufacturers have found out that they can get more production for their dollar in these countries. So that's where the money is going. That's why we owe China so much. Until their economy builds up to the point where Mr Average Chang starts demanding more money, we will have trouble putting this gene back in the bottle. I don't see it getting a lot better for us anytime soon (no matter what we do). But we will survive. We may have to do without the latest upgrades, but we will eat.

Right you are GM. The genie ain't going back in the bottle. It is inevidable that standards of living will equalize across the globe. People here, (North American, Europe, Japan), need to remember that it won't entirely be poor countries rising to our standard of living -- our standard will be falling simaltaneously so as to meet theirs somewhere in the middle. In fact, working incomes US and Canada level off in the '80s and have declined significantly in the last decade -- like I said though, most haven't yet felt a drop in our living standards because we have be able to borrow -- 'till now -- to make up the decline.

Now, say you're guy whose just lost his job to somebody in China: how much do you feel you "owe" the Chinese guy? Are you glad that you can now buy for thing that you used to make for less because he now makes? Maybe so. But note that already (in a small degree) the Chinese worker has begun to experience the pressure of lower wages elsewhere. Of course the "elsewhere" isn't (yet) North American but, say, Bangladesh.

Tighten that belt buck, bro.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Bush's NeoCon credentials were well established in 1999. How come an ignorant foreigner like me saw perfectly well that he has going to bngger you guys and the rest of us? Appearances were all you Americans need, but you stupidly chose to ignore every sign.

And as for 2003, shame, shame, shame on you. The world says:dita: except no smirk.
I don't see any good advise in this. I don't know what "bngger" means, but this post sounds like someone who has a deep seated disdain for us Americans...

[Woochifer]

As much as we like to bash Bose, in this economy, I'm not going to celebrate anyone losing their jobs. Just like the vast majority of workers, they have familes, homes, cars, and other expenses.

Although I felt that Bose was overpriced, you must admire the marketing muscle that they are able to flex.

It is unfortunate that people are the first to get the hatchet when investors are not happy that their stock shares are going to be $.01 off of estimates.

Bose is a private company, no shareholders to keep fat and happy other than Dr. Bose.

I agree though, when is 1,000 people losing their jobs ever "good news"? I guess pixie's just getting ever more desperate for attention. Aside from the Bose employees losing their jobs, it also impacts the communities where these employees live -- retail workers, child care providers, etc.

[Ajani]

As many in this thread have rightfully said: People losing jobs is not a good thing...

While I agree that Bose products are overpriced, I still respect the fact that Bose had the damn sense to ADVERTISE!!! If some of the other stuck up, dumb@$$, audio brands had done the same, then Bose probably wouldn't be synonymous with high end audio for the Average Joe...

[Ajani]

I don't see any good advise in this. I don't know what "bngger" means, but this post sounds like someone who has a deep seated disdain for us Americans...

Fine, that was a nasty post.... and based on the tone I'm going to assume it was part of a quarrel... Posts made during quarrels are not always the best reflection of what someone really thinks...

I've seen (and to some extent been involved in) some of the political exchanges between you and Feanor... Feanor has a lot of very strong opinions on American Politics and you 'appear' to dislike hearing foreigners' opinions on your country... This is a perfect recipe for misunderstandings...

I don't think Feanor hates Americans... What happens in America affects all of us foreigners and so we watch your elections and politics with held breath, hoping that we won't all get screwed if the American public votes for the wrong guy... America is like the musclebound jock in high school... if he chooses to use his brain and be a nice guy, then he can be a role model to the whole school, but if he decides to be a bully then everyone starts hiding...

You need to understand that there is a difference between hating someone and just being afraid of what they might do...

[Rich-n-Texas]

ANY time I see someone badmouthing my country Ajani, they're going to hear about it. Period. Where do you get the idea that I don't know the difference between hating someone and being afraid of what someone might do? To me, that remark was completely irrelevant.

I also think it's bad form for pix, at the beginning of his thread, to wish/hope I'd be layed off. I don't give a rat's ass whether he was joking or not.

I don't think any remarks I made required input from you.

[Feanor]

I don't see any good advise in this. I don't know what "bngger" means, but this post sounds like someone who has a deep seated disdain for us Americans...

What is an 'n' rotated 180°?

Most of the world -- including me -- looks to the United States for leadership in many in areas including economics, ethics, and geopolitics. We are disappointed and frustrated when the U.S. comes up even a little short.

I am sadden when a sizable portion of US citizens votes on the basis of discredited and untimely right-wing ideologies with the result that the most powerful political offices in the world are turned over to incompotent and ethically-corrupt individuals. Not only America but the whole world is punished as a consequence -- I'm not only saddened but a bit angry reflecting on this. Be mindful that a very large portion of people outside the US hold the outgoing US administration to blame for causing or exacerbating various serious problems in the world today.

Fortunately the new US Federal administration holds out hope for significant improvements in many areas. I am solidly with the sensible Americans of good will who will supporting their government's undertakings to right the problems.

[Ajani]

ANY time I see someone badmouthing my country Ajani, they're going to hear about it. Period. Where do you get the idea that I don't know the difference between hating someone and being afraid of what someone might do? To me, that remark was completely irrelevant.

Well, if you say you get the difference but still think Feanor just has a thing against Americans, then I won't argue with that... You're free to have your own opinion on his motivations.


I also think it's bad form for pix, at the beginning of his thread, to wish/hope I'd be layed off. I don't give a rat's ass whether he was joking or not.

Pix likes to be an @$$... Don't let his posts get to you... Though I do agree, that he shouldn't even be joking about you losing a job... I've lost a job before because of massive layoffs at my company (that's why I left Toronto and returned to the Caribbean)... it SUCKED (no other words are needed to describe the experience)...


I don't think any remarks I made required input from you.

Also correct, but by now I think you know I tend to butt in every now and again...

[Feanor]

Fine, that was a nasty post.... and based on the tone I'm going to assume it was part of a quarrel... Posts made during quarrels are not always the best reflection of what someone really thinks...
...

Yes, a bit nasty in tone. I apologize for the tone but not the substance. My message is simply that American should have know better than to vote for Dubyah the first time, much less the second time.

I am, overall, a great admirer of the United States of America. Thus I hold the country and its leadership to a high standard. Strong criticism of the US against a very high standard may be equated to mild criticism of a country of lessor stature against a much lower standard. But seemly some Americans feel it is presumptuous that their country should be criticized at all.

[Woochifer]

As many in this thread have rightfully said: People losing jobs is not a good thing...

While I agree that Bose products are overpriced, I still respect the fact that Bose had the damn sense to ADVERTISE!!! If some of the other stuck up, dumb@$$, audio brands had done the same, then Bose probably wouldn't be synonymous with high end audio for the Average Joe...

Actually, Bose is the only audio company that generates enough revenue from their audio products to do TV ads. Other companies aren't "dumb@$$"-- they just can't afford to do the kind of advertising that Bose does.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but consider that sales from the ENTIRE home audio component market is somewhere around $1.2 billion. A couple of years ago, sales from the iPod ALONE were more than triple the entire home audio component industry. That's why Apple advertises on TV, and other audio companies do not.

Most home audio manufacturers are small scale operations that can barely afford display ads in Stereophile or Sound & Vision, or they are small divisions within a much larger conglomerate that allocates minimal budget for advertising. Companies like Yamaha and Sony generate millions from their audio component sales, but that revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions.

[Ajani]

Actually, Bose is the only audio company that generates enough revenue from their audio products to do TV ads. Other companies aren't "dumb@$$"-- they just can't afford to do the kind of advertising that Bose does.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but consider that sales from the ENTIRE home audio component market is somewhere around $1.2 billion. A couple of years ago, sales from the iPod ALONE were more than triple the entire home audio component industry. That's why Apple advertises on TV, and other audio companies do not.

Most home audio manufacturers are small scale operations that can barely afford display ads in Stereophile or Sound & Vision, or they are small divisions within a much larger conglomerate that allocates minimal budget for advertising. Companies like Yamaha and Sony generate millions from their audio component sales, but that revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions.

I'm sure B&W and Paradigm can afford to do a few ads... I'm not talking about buying a 2 minute slot in the middle of the Superbowl...

Instead of just having ADs in the usual Stereophile, Absolute Sound etc.. buy a few spots in mags normal people read... It's not complicated... if they can afford ads in audio mags, then they can afford to cut back a little on those mags and try more mainstream ones...

(Note: I accept that small boutique stores probably can't afford any ads other than the free praise we give them on sites like this... but the big dogs are being shortsighted IMO)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, if you say you get the difference but still think Feanor just has a thing against Americans, then I won't argue with that... You're free to have your own opinion on his motivations.
I said Feanor has a deep seated disdain for Americans, not "a thing", and not "hatred".

Pix likes to be an @$$... Don't let his posts get to you... Though I do agree, that he shouldn't even be joking about you losing a job... I've lost a job before because of massive layoffs at my company (that's why I left Toronto and returned to the Caribbean)... it SUCKED (no other words are needed to describe the experience)...
My history with pix goes way back Ajani. I appreciate your advice, but it's not needed.

Also correct, but by now I think you know I tend to butt in every now and again...
And I think by now you know that I am bitterly loyal and patriotic to the country my father fought to keep free. Cuts both ways dude.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yes, a bit nasty in tone. I apologize for the tone but not the substance. My message is simply that American should have know better than to vote for Dubyah the first time, much less the second time.
You do that a lot. But only when it's pointed out to you.

We voted for Bush because Bill Clinton and his wife were/are sleazy liars. They painted a really bad picture of the Democratic party.

And thanks for making me fail on my New Years resolution.


I am, overall, a great admirer of the United States of America. Thus I hold the country and its leadership to a high standard. Strong criticism of the US against a very high standard may be equated to mild criticism of a country of lessor stature against a much lower standard. But seemly some Americans feel it is presumptuous that their country should be criticized at all.

Baffling us with bullsh!t.

Not presumptuous on my part. Big difference between flat out personally attacking the American populous and criticizing the country. But that's your trademark Feanor.

[nightflier]

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but consider that sales from the ENTIRE home audio component market is somewhere around $1.2 billion. A couple of years ago, sales from the iPod ALONE were more than triple the entire home audio component industry. That's why Apple advertises on TV, and other audio companies do not.

I'm no expert, but one possible solution is for 2-3 companies to share advertising space/time. I know it's done in newspapers and online, but couldn't it also be done on TV?

Another thought is infomercials. Again, I have no idea what these things cost, even late at night, but I gota believe they generate serious sales since they keep making them. A few nights ago I saw one for some kind of supper squeegie that can soak up a bucket full of water. Certainly a company like Audioquest or B&W can afford to do one of these, or perhaps split the cost of a 1/2 hour with two other companies.

I also think that the ads in the audio magazines are few and often from the same companies each month. And some companies never advertise (e.g. Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson) while others buy whole page ads (Ayre, PrimaLuna). It really seems to be a mystery to me about who spends what & where.

Never saw a Bose add in Stereophile, though.

[Auricauricle]

To those who are getting redder by the minute, do you remember this: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Mebbe not an American quote, but a pretty good one to ponder upon, I think.

As far as Bose, etc., you gotta hand it to the guys for their marketing savvy. The other guys (CJ, AR, etc.) pretty much seem to have rested on their laurels and hoped that the boutiques would continue to thrive and that word-of-mouth would be sufficient to keep their names in the air. But what wasn't taken into account was the simple fact that hifi is a hobby that relies on niche marketing and did not take into account that it would be taken over by a mainstream that didn't give two hoots about DAC's and vacuum tubes. Bose new this, and played an expert game. While we afficianados pooh-poohed their wares, they went on, turning their eyes to the bigger market. Now that market has set its sights on ipods etc. I am certain that if Bose had taken some of their money and applied it to similar tech toys, the 1000 employees would be safe and snug as a bug at the end of day.

[02audionoob]

It dismays me when I see people make a generalization about how all Americans are or presume all Americans are a certain way. Sure...two presidential elections went in favor of George W. Bush, but by the slimmest of margins. Are the 50% of voters who voted for another candidate not a factor in how Americans are?

[pixelthis]

So Feanor, are you, like pixass, hoping I get layed off?


ACTUALLY I dont hope anybody gets laid off, and if I THOUGHT that you might
I WOULDNT JOKE ABOUT IT.
Truth is TI has a strong military and commercial section that I heard is pretty
reccession proof, just heard that, however.
As for Feanor he needs to watch it, when the USA gets a cold the rest of the world gets pnumonia....
AND WE ARE GETTING PNUEMONIA.
Dont worry be happy rich, I am sure a guy with your skills....
Oh, never mind.:1:

[pixelthis]

Right you are GM. The genie ain't going back in the bottle. It is inevidable that standards of living will equalize across the globe. People here, (North American, Europe, Japan), need to remember that it won't entirely be poor countries rising to our standard of living -- our standard will be falling simaltaneously so as to meet theirs somewhere in the middle. In fact, working incomes US and Canada level off in the '80s and have declined significantly in the last decade -- like I said though, most haven't yet felt a drop in our living standards because we have be able to borrow -- 'till now -- to make up the decline.

Now, say you're guy whose just lost his job to somebody in China: how much do you feel you "owe" the Chinese guy? Are you glad that you can now buy for thing that you used to make for less because he now makes? Maybe so. But note that already (in a small degree) the Chinese worker has begun to experience the pressure of lower wages elsewhere. Of course the "elsewhere" isn't (yet) North American but, say, Bangladesh.

Tighten that belt buck, bro.


Its not inevitable, its what the powers that be want.
Rob from the rich to give to the poor.
AND THEN KILL THE POOR.
Because the intention is NOT to help the poor but DESTROY THE RICH...
especially the USA.
Then, when everybodies equally starving to death along comes the man on the white
horse, the PTB choosen stooge to rule for them...
SOONER rather than later.:1:

[Feanor]

It dismays me when I see people make a generalization about how all Americans are or presume all Americans are a certain way. Sure...two presidential elections went in favor of George W. Bush, but by the slimmest of margins. Are the 50% of voters who voted for another candidate not a factor in how Americans are?

Noob, please clarify: are you accusing me of making generalizations about Americans? My complaints have been with a certain consituency in the US, not all Americans. I though this was perfectly clear: maybe not.

On the other hand, there is another person here who has accused me of disdaining all Americans. I do not, but it serves his purpose to make the accusation since it is a way to shut me up without dealing with the ideas I put forward.

Well, his strategy has work: I'm out of political discussion for the foresesable future.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well then you might as well just unsub from the site Feanor. You DO make generalization after generalization about Americans, lump us all together and call us stupid. Generalized racism is what I'd call it.

Let me clarify something. You apologized for the inflamatory statement I quoted from a different thread. What I should have responded with is that your history, when talking about politics (and you seem to enjoy turning just about ANY thread into political debate) is that you make inflamatory statements, blow some smoke as a way of covering up the wound, then for whatever reason, say you're sorry. Problem is, the damage has already been done and it's all there in print for anyone to read, anytime they want. And then you repeat the cycle again.

Aa, you're correct. It's a free country and everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. If Feanor wants to make inflamatory remarks about the US, I can't and won't stop him, but I'll surely return fire in kind. I'm proud of where I live.

Bill, I've told you before that IMO you're a valuable contributor to this audio/video forum, but your stock plumets in my mind (and I'm sure I'm not alone) when you reduce to Republican bashing. What A/V nut really gives a rats ass about politics???

[audio amateur]

What A/V nut really gives a rats ass about politics???
Well I can't speak for myself, but I suspect many do as shows the number of threads revolving politics around here.

[E-Stat]

As far as Bose, etc., you gotta hand it to the guys for their marketing savvy. The other guys (CJ, AR, etc.) pretty much seem to have rested on their laurels and hoped that the boutiques would continue to thrive...
The size of potential markets for purchasing $350 table radios and $10k preamps is a bit different. Despite claims of niche companies making extraordinary profits from their *overpriced* goods, they have very little net margin with which to work.

rw

[Woochifer]

I'm sure B&W and Paradigm can afford to do a few ads... I'm not talking about buying a 2 minute slot in the middle of the Superbowl...

Don't be so sure of that. Bose's revenue is probably multiples greater than B&W and Paradigm. While both of those companies are among the largest specialty speaker manufacturers, the specialty speaker segment as a whole represents a tiny industry. Given that both B&W and Paradigm are vertically integrated companies that heavily invest in R&D and manufacturing, I would guess that they would rather invest in their plants and products than divert funds to TV ads.

The other aspect to this is the name recognition. Bose is very easy to find because they distribute to mass merchandise stores. A TV ad works for them because consumers already know the brand and see the products everywhere. B&W and Paradigm have chosen to build their brand equity by selling only through specialty stores. They can go on TV, but unless they do this pervasively and keep up the campaign over the course of years, no one will care much for some unknown company doing an infomercial selling an expensive product.


Instead of just having ADs in the usual Stereophile, Absolute Sound etc.. buy a few spots in mags normal people read... It's not complicated... if they can afford ads in audio mags, then they can afford to cut back a little on those mags and try more mainstream ones...

Problem here is would they rather take a shotgun approach at the mass market, or would they rather do a targeted approach to the specialty market? What approach gives them a higher rate of return on investment? The danger to going mass market is the dilution of product quality, and alienating your base market and dealer network. Paradigm and B&W operate their own plants (Paradigm goes as far as manufacturing its own drivers, crossovers, and active amps), but if a TV campaign creates a huge spike in demand, can they ramp up production while maintaining their product quality? Or do they bite the bullet and start outsourcing to China?

JBL showed the industry exactly how not to make a mass market transition when they began selling their products in discount stores and other mass merchandisers. They gained a foothold in big box stores, but they got dropped by nearly all of their specialty dealers in the process and pissed away their reputation in the process (once upon a time, a segment of the audiophile market actually spoke well of JBL).

[Woochifer]

I'm no expert, but one possible solution is for 2-3 companies to share advertising space/time. I know it's done in newspapers and online, but couldn't it also be done on TV?

Unless you go the infomercial route, a 30-second spot means less screen time for each brand if you start combining things. The approach that might work would be joint marketing with retail chains. I know that CE companies do some of this for print ads and store displays. Who knows if they're not doing this already.


Another thought is infomercials. Again, I have no idea what these things cost, even late at night, but I gota believe they generate serious sales since they keep making them. A few nights ago I saw one for some kind of supper squeegie that can soak up a bucket full of water. Certainly a company like Audioquest or B&W can afford to do one of these, or perhaps split the cost of a 1/2 hour with two other companies.

Big difference between trying sell a $20 Shamwow versus a $500 clock radio. Those Shamwow spots are everywhere, but for $20, they can sell millions of them. Bose has years of brand equity built in already. Their name recognition is on a level with Sony, that's why they can sell expensive items using an infomercial. Sony very well might be the only other CE company that can afford an infomercial campaign AND use its name recognition to actually sell a few products. B&W might have a good product to sell (e.g., their Zeppelin iPod dock), but half their challenge is getting people to remember the company name in the first place (i.e., do they also make the 3-series sedans?).

Forget about Audioquest. I doubt that they're big enough to do TV ads, and who the hell will actually sit through an infomercial about audio cables?


I also think that the ads in the audio magazines are few and often from the same companies each month. And some companies never advertise (e.g. Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson) while others buy whole page ads (Ayre, PrimaLuna). It really seems to be a mystery to me about who spends what & where.

Never saw a Bose add in Stereophile, though.

I think you need to go back several years. Audio Research used to be huge on Stereophile print ads, and they probably made up about half of Stereophile's recommended amps and preamp. Same with Conrad Johnson. I have a feeling that those companies found their market niche, and are perfectly fine with how their sales are going without having to advertise. I recall that during Audio Research's ascendency, there were long waiting lists for their products.

If you go back to the 80s, Stereophile was not nearly as focused on the ultra expensive "silly segment" products as they are now. I do recall seeing an ad for the Bose 901, and the back issue that I recently received has print ads for a Yamaha CD player and an Onkyo tape deck.

[nightflier]

Auric,

I actually always considered Bose a natural fit with the iPod crowd. Design wise they are also cute (I know it's a matter of taste), small, and have a dumbed down, mass-market / CE interface. Much of their gear is also white. Maybe Bose would benefit from rounding the angular designs a bit, but otherwise it's a mystery why the Bose & iPod markets aren't more cozy. Maybe it's Bose's unrealistic price-point or a marketing dispute of some sort, but I think both Apple and Bose could benefit (profit-wise, more so that quality-wise of course) from a closer marketing relationship. Not doing so, is perhaps at their own detriment.

Wooch,

Didn't know about Sterophile's slightly checkered past. Good to know. I do wish they would cover more affordable gear, though, especially in this economy. Sure I don't mind reading about $30K Magico speakers, but considering how few people will actually buy a pair, it might not be necessary to do a full analysis of them. I was also intreged by YG Acoustics and the 2-page ads, while there doesn't seem to be a review anywhere. Then I saw that the speakers cost $30K and up. Maybe all that is going to pay for those ads?

Pix,


Its not inevitable, its what the powers that be want.
Rob from the rich to give to the poor.
AND THEN KILL THE POOR.
Because the intention is NOT to help the poor but DESTROY THE RICH...
especially the USA.
Then, when everybodies equally starving to death along comes the man on the white
horse, the PTB choosen stooge to rule for them...
SOONER rather than later.:1:

You seem to be suffering from a case of diarrhea of the brain. Wear a diaper around your mouth, will you?

[Woochifer]

I actually always considered Bose a natural fit with the iPod crowd. Design wise they are also cute (I know it's a matter of taste), small, and have a dumbed down, mass-market / CE interface. Much of their gear is also white. Maybe Bose would benefit from rounding the angular designs a bit, but otherwise it's a mystery why the Bose & iPod markets aren't more cozy. Maybe it's Bose's unrealistic price-point or a marketing dispute of some sort, but I think both Apple and Bose could benefit (profit-wise, more so that quality-wise of course) from a closer marketing relationship. Not doing so, is perhaps at their own detriment.

I think Apple is actually the 800-pound gorilla in the audio industry right now. All of the products that dock with the iPod are licensed from Apple, and if you take a look at what crowds onto store shelves, iPod-capable products are moving into just about every audio segment. In this market, Bose is just another licensee and frankly, Apple's ads run circles around those from Bose (and just about everybody else).


Didn't know about Sterophile's slightly checkered past. Good to know. I do wish they would cover more affordable gear, though, especially in this economy. Sure I don't mind reading about $30K Magico speakers, but considering how few people will actually buy a pair, it might not be necessary to do a full analysis of them. I was also intreged by YG Acoustics and the 2-page ads, while there doesn't seem to be a review anywhere. Then I saw that the speakers cost $30K and up. Maybe all that is going to pay for those ads?

I actually don't regard that as a checkered past. Stereophile used to be a more sensible publication that actually covered sensibly priced components, and ways that consumers could get more enjoyment out of their systems. If mass market company made a decent product, Stereophile would let its readers know. At that time, The Absolute Sound was nothing more than anti-digital propagandizing while Stereo Review often didn't even include listening tests -- Stereophile simply took the middle road and did quite well.

I think that Stereophile's evolution has more or less followed the high end audio market's move towards ultra expensive statement pieces and high priced accessories. There seems to be more orthodoxy that's governed by what people perceive as high end, as opposed to simply informing readers about what quality gear is on the market regardless of whether it comes from a "high end" company.

At one point a few years ago, Stereophile did review some budget priced mass market components, but I think many of their readers got so offended by the inclusion of $300 JBL speakers that Stereophile went back to audio porn.

[Ajani]

I actually don't regard that as a checkered past. Stereophile used to be a more sensible publication that actually covered sensibly priced components, and ways that consumers could get more enjoyment out of their systems. If mass market company made a decent product, Stereophile would let its readers know. At that time, The Absolute Sound was nothing more than anti-digital propagandizing while Stereo Review often didn't even include listening tests -- Stereophile simply took the middle road and did quite well.

I think that Stereophile's evolution has more or less followed the high end audio market's move towards ultra expensive statement pieces and high priced accessories. There seems to be more orthodoxy that's governed by what people perceive as high end, as opposed to simply informing readers about what quality gear is on the market regardless of whether it comes from a "high end" company.

At one point a few years ago, Stereophile did review some budget priced mass market components, but I think many of their readers got so offended by the inclusion of $300 JBL speakers that Stereophile went back to audio porn.

Stereophile still reviews the odd truly affordable components (PSB Alpha and Paradigm Atoms for example)...

Just about a month ago, we had a big debate on the Stereophile forums about why they review so much overpriced Audio Porn and so few affordable products... the simple answer from John Atkinson (not a direct quote, cuz I'm too lazy to go dig up one): was that Stereophile sells like hotcakes and the average amount of money Stereophile readers have invested in their setups is well over $16K...

Based on that response, most of us dropped the argument about reviewing more affordable gear.

[Ajani]

Don't be so sure of that. Bose's revenue is probably multiples greater than B&W and Paradigm. While both of those companies are among the largest specialty speaker manufacturers, the specialty speaker segment as a whole represents a tiny industry. Given that both B&W and Paradigm are vertically integrated companies that heavily invest in R&D and manufacturing, I would guess that they would rather invest in their plants and products than divert funds to TV ads.

The other aspect to this is the name recognition. Bose is very easy to find because they distribute to mass merchandise stores. A TV ad works for them because consumers already know the brand and see the products everywhere. B&W and Paradigm have chosen to build their brand equity by selling only through specialty stores. They can go on TV, but unless they do this pervasively and keep up the campaign over the course of years, no one will care much for some unknown company doing an infomercial selling an expensive product.



Problem here is would they rather take a shotgun approach at the mass market, or would they rather do a targeted approach to the specialty market? What approach gives them a higher rate of return on investment? The danger to going mass market is the dilution of product quality, and alienating your base market and dealer network. Paradigm and B&W operate their own plants (Paradigm goes as far as manufacturing its own drivers, crossovers, and active amps), but if a TV campaign creates a huge spike in demand, can they ramp up production while maintaining their product quality? Or do they bite the bullet and start outsourcing to China?

JBL showed the industry exactly how not to make a mass market transition when they began selling their products in discount stores and other mass merchandisers. They gained a foothold in big box stores, but they got dropped by nearly all of their specialty dealers in the process and pissed away their reputation in the process (once upon a time, a segment of the audiophile market actually spoke well of JBL).

I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...

I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.

[GMichael]

I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.

Does Lamborghini feel offended by how popular Kia's are?:smilewinkgrin:

[pixelthis]

I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...

I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.


BOSE offends me.
They are proof positive that the white hats rarely win in this world, they have brainwashed
the masses into beleiving that they are the end all be all in not just home theater but
home audio.
I HAVE A B&W setup that run over 2500 bucks(yeah I KNOW, MODEST BY SOME STANDARDS) and do you know HOW many times I have been asked as to why I didnt buy "BOSE", or paticularly that my system is "nice" if I CANT AFFORD BOSE.
You can talk about how their "bass modules" cant produce true base, or the midrange gap between their satelites and their "bass modules", the crappiness of the cheap materials
they use, and the car stereo drivers they call speakers, nobody wants to hear it.
When I CRANK my stuff up and the walls start shaking I tend to get a new beleiver,
but its an uphill battle.
Basically people listening to BOSE are missing out on the true musical sound they could be experiencing, and thats sad, really.
EVERY time I see a bose product in its cheap plastic case I WANT TO UPCHUCK.
I listened to a pair of their bookshelfs once, with a CD that I knew inside and out,
entire instruments were missing.
I hate for people to lose their jobs too, but I dont see why people need a job making CRAP.
Not just crap, but CRAP SQUARED.:1:

[Woochifer]

Stereophile still reviews the odd truly affordable components (PSB Alpha and Paradigm Atoms for example)...

Just about a month ago, we had a big debate on the Stereophile forums about why they review so much overpriced Audio Porn and so few affordable products... the simple answer from John Atkinson (not a direct quote, cuz I'm too lazy to go dig up one): was that Stereophile sells like hotcakes and the average amount of money Stereophile readers have invested in their setups is well over $16K...

Based on that response, most of us dropped the argument about reviewing more affordable gear.

They will review a budget component every now and then, but it inevitably comes from a small specialty company that makes other high end models. They rarely if ever review a product from a mass market company, basically ceding that market over to Sound & Vision. I recall that there was an uproar a few years ago when Stereophile reviewed an inexpensive JBL speaker. And to me, that mindset among audiophiles is a problem. I guess that with Stereophile reviewing only a limited number of components in each issue, readers want their audio porn.

This is very different from the British audio magazines, which review upwards of 100 products in each issue. They don't seem as stymied by whether Company A is perceived by readers as a "high end" company. They'll review a budget HT receiver in the same issue as a Halcro amp. OTOH, their reviews are very short, and often don't include any technical data whatsoever.


I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...

It's a lot more complicated than that. As cited in my JBL example, when a company decides to go mass market, they don't just add the mass market to their current sales totals. They also potentially need to subtract sales from current dealers that will drop them once they start getting in bed with mass merchandisers. Generally, regional and independent audio stores don't like to support their competitors, and would rather pick up a new specialty brand than support a company that doesn't support them. The rise of companies like Paradigm, Energy, and PSB coincided with the decline of JBL in the specialty audio market.

I'm sure that B&W and Paradigm have the money to run a few ads, but also consider that if they go toe-to-toe with Bose, then their ads would consume a far higher percentage of total revenue, since Bose's revenues are much higher overall. They might spur some sales, but the product quality might nosedive in the process along with their finances.


I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.

I don't think they care, because these audio brands have staked out their market niche, and decided that the mass market is not worth the ramp up in sales, manufacturing, and customer support. If they go mass market, they go into a completely different business model. Bose is popular because they cater to the mass merchandising distribution channels. Their competition at that level is Sony, Logitech, JVC, JBL, et al. B&W and Paradigm purposely stay out of the mass merchandising market.

[nightflier]

Maybe it's the case that companies who advertise and go for the mass market, are likely to also be public, whereas those that don't, will tend to be privately held. Perhaps the stock holders, who may not even care about the audiophile quality of the products, have more influence on what a company does than we may want to admit.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Fine, that was a nasty post.... and based on the tone I'm going to assume it was part of a quarrel... Posts made during quarrels are not always the best reflection of what someone really thinks...

I've seen (and to some extent been involved in) some of the political exchanges between you and Feanor... Feanor has a lot of very strong opinions on American Politics and you 'appear' to dislike hearing foreigners' opinions on your country... This is a perfect recipe for misunderstandings...

I don't think Feanor hates Americans... What happens in America affects all of us foreigners and so we watch your elections and politics with held breath, hoping that we won't all get screwed if the American public votes for the wrong guy... America is like the musclebound jock in high school... if he chooses to use his brain and be a nice guy, then he can be a role model to the whole school, but if he decides to be a bully then everyone starts hiding...

You need to understand that there is a difference between hating someone and just being afraid of what they might do...

Unfortunately Ajani, I do not go to the polls and vote in a way that makes other countries more comfortable. If I vote for what I decide is good for my country, and it makes other countries uncomfortable, that's too bad I am afraid. I do not see citizens in other contries voting in a way that makes American more comfortable, the palestinians certainly didn't voting Hamas into power.

[Auricauricle]

While I sense the growing trend of mediocre, consumer-oriented fare in the hifi marketplace, I am heartened by knowing that folks like us are in place. This being the case, perhaps more august manufacturers will be spurred to continue their craft, even if the mainstream appeal makes doing so increasingly expensive and inaccessible.

Without the drive to improve, I am afraid that Wooh's prophesy of dilution of quality might bear out. This will certainly be the case of individuals who are more interested in making more green in the short term. On the other hand, brands that matter will not be so likely to cave to these pressures, realizing the suicidal implications of doing so.

I like the photo one of the Members posted a while back, of a grandson listening to some tunes on a nice, bulky pair of ear-cans. That post gave me some satisfaction that folks were still engaging each other in this dialog we share within this website. Music does matter, as much now as it did when we fell in love with it. Keeping the fire kindled here and with our youg 'uns is as good a way to keep it goin' than any other.

[02audionoob]

Noob, please clarify: are you accusing me of making generalizations about Americans? My complaints have been with a certain consituency in the US, not all Americans. I though this was perfectly clear: maybe not.



I have not read most of the political threads around here, although I do read the new ones. Whether or not you have the disdain you were accused of having...beats me. It's common knowledge there are many people who have a preconceived notion about all 300 million of us. Of course, there are many in the USA who have a preconceived notion about all 20 million of us Texans...so certainly it's human nature.

[Woochifer]

Maybe it's the case that companies who advertise and go for the mass market, are likely to also be public, whereas those that don't, will tend to be privately held. Perhaps the stock holders, who may not even care about the audiophile quality of the products, have more influence on what a company does than we may want to admit.

That's a good point. Publicly traded companies are all about earnings and revenue growth, and creating value for shareholders. CEOs by definition are tasked with those goals. If they fail to create shareholder value, then the boards are obligated to dump them.

The example that comes to mind is Boston Acoustics. They started off by updating the New England sound. Once they went public, they strayed pretty far from their roots. Dumped the acoustic suspension designs and soft dome tweeters, and began producing metal domes and ported boxes. Then they dived headlong into sub/sat home theater systems, clock radios, and on-wall speakers. I recall that their revenue was always in the low eight-figure range -- not very big for a publicly traded company. They went private a couple of years ago when they were acquired by D&M Holdings (which itself seems to be constantly positioning to be acquired).

A private company like Audio Research can just settle into whatever niche they feel comfortable with, and operate without any pressure from shareholders or equity partners to keep pushing for double digit growth. In its early days, Audio Research could have grown pretty big because at that time they were one of the pioneering companies that specialized exclusively with high end components. They had a huge waiting list, but they chose to stay small. That might have kept them in business since that high end space is a lot more crowded nowadays.

[StevenSurprenant]

do you know HOW many times I have been asked as to why I didnt buy "BOSE", or paticularly that my system is "nice" if I CANT AFFORD BOSE.


Well, I WAS going to say something, but I think you folks covered it all. Good Job!

About the quote above...

It made me laugh cause someone once told me that my Quad ESL / Levinson system sounded ALMOST as good as his Bose.

Makes you wonder sometimes...?

[Auricauricle]

Geeze....Kinda reminds of the time I wistfully remarked to a Harley Davidson rider (the real kind, not an urban wannabe) that I missed my bike and the open road. When he asked me what I rode, I described my ride: a 1977 Honda 750K. He shook his head sadly and said, "Well, nobody's perfect."

[GMichael]

Geeze....Kinda reminds of the time I wistfully remarked to a Harley Davidson rider (the real kind, not an urban wannabe) that I missed my bike and the open road. When he asked me what I rode, I described my ride: a 1977 Honda 750K. He shook his head sadly and said, "Well, nobody's perfect."

Hahaha. I got that from a few "Harley riders" back in the day. I must have ended up as one of those urban wannabe's in the end though. My last two bikes were Harleys, but I never embraced the whole grunge thing. One guy (who didn't even own a Harley) had the nerve to tell me that I wasn't a "real Harley rider." I told him that I really own a Harley and I really ride it. How about him? He wasn't happy, but the rest of the guys laughed.

[pixelthis]

Hahaha. I got that from a few "Harley riders" back in the day. I must have ended up as one of those urban wannabe's in the end though. My last two bikes were Harleys, but I never embraced the whole grunge thing. One guy (who didn't even own a Harley) had the nerve to tell me that I wasn't a "real Harley rider." I told him that I really own a Harley and I really ride it. How about him? He wasn't happy, but the rest of the guys laughed.

you might have gotten more respect without the training wheels.

I bought a pair of BOSE 501 series fours during the mid eighties.
At seven hundred thats like 1400 today, a lot for a civil servant.
I was stuck with those monstrosities for ten years(had some hard times and couldnt aford to replace them)
They wouldnt fit anywhere, their "direct reflecting" sound was so much hooey.
WITHOUT the specially set up store display I couldnt get any kind of decent sound from
these atrocities. They were supposed to last me ten years.
Well, thats how long I had them, nobody would buy them.
They did make good looking end tables, tho.
GOD I hated those things!!!:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

you might have gotten more respect without the training wheels.
How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:

[Luvin Da Blues]

How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:

Hey Rich, Pixs' role around here is to make the rest of us look good. Like a deer in the headlights, I gots to read what psychobabble he lays down next.

Keep it up Pix, I need to have a good laugh every now and then. :p

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, I suspect that if he DID get his head blown off, another one would just grow back anyway with its mouth already running. :rolleyes:

[nightflier]

How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:

He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.

But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?

[GMichael]

He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.

But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?

Only 90% ??

I get the feeling that even he doesn't agree with much of what he says. He knows it's ridiculous and is just saying it to get a rise out of us. Which it does.

[Auricauricle]

GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:

[GMichael]

GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:

True, but it takes Pixie to get a rise out of the rest of you geeks. Oops. Did I type that out loud?:eek6:

Rich made me say it.:wink5:

[Auricauricle]

Uh huh....Yeah you typed that out loud, you flower sniffin' dweeb!

Whoops! Tourette's Moment!

[GMichael]

It was Rich's fault.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I never do anything wrong.
I never get my way.
I never get to go anywhere.
I never get to do anything.
I never get anything.

(A woman's creed.)

[GMichael]

Does that make you....

Uh.....

Uhm....

[Rich-n-Texas]

Uuuuhhh... NO! My ex-fiance from years ago used to say that. It's a summation of many many arguments.

[Auricauricle]

Sounds like a mantra t' me, Richie.....

[Rich-n-Texas]

A man's creed: I never get any.

[bobsticks]

It's far, far too easy....

[pixelthis]

Hey Rich, Pixs' role around here is to make the rest of us look good. Like a deer in the headlights, I gots to read what psychobabble he lays down next.

Keep it up Pix, I need to have a good laugh every now and then. :p


I thought you had a mirror for that.:1:

[pixelthis]

Yeah, I suspect that if he DID get his head blown off, another one would just grow back anyway with its mouth already running. :rolleyes:


Watching a lot of MIB again?
Of course with my head blown off I would still know more than you.:1:

[pixelthis]

He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.

But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?

The fact that you dont agree with 90% of what I say warms my heart (in a jar on my desk)
when I remember that you voted for this idiot.:1:

[pixelthis]

GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:


The only thing that gives them a "rise" is triple strenght viagra with a crack/meth
chaser.:1:

[pixelthis]

It was Rich's fault.

ALWAYS is, isnt it?:1:

[pixelthis]

Uh huh....Yeah you typed that out loud, you flower sniffin' dweeb!

Whoops! Tourette's Moment!

You know, I saw the zippy avatar and instantly thought, "wow!"
WAY COOLNESS!
Then I realized it was a self portrait...:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Watching a lot of MIB again?
:lol: Actually I was watching it the other day. Is it out on BD yet?

Of course with my head blown off I would still know more than you.:1:
Yeah but you'd be uglier than you already are. :dita:

[Auricauricle]

Ooooh, that hurt, pixie. You make owie. Owww....

[pixelthis]

:lol: Actually I was watching it the other day. Is it out on BD yet?

Yeah but you'd be uglier than you already are. :dita:

DO YOU REALLY WANT to make it that easy on me?.
Oh, okay.
couldnt get near your acheivements in the field of being Butt ugly.:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sugar Beats would disagree with you nimrod. Oh but, you don't like women anyway so I guess it doesn't matter huh? :rolleyes:

[GMichael]

Sugar Beats would disagree with you nimrod. Oh but, you don't like women anyway so I guess it doesn't matter huh? :rolleyes:

You are kinda cute.:ihih:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Man, I would've HATED commiting a parking violation when he was a meter maid! :yikes:

[GMichael]

Man, I would've HATED commiting a parking violation when he was a meter maid! :yikes:

He quit?...

[Rich-n-Texas]

You are kinda cute.:ihih:
She sent you my picture didn't she? :incazzato:

That's okay, you couldn't see my mug through the... uh.... beer mug. :nono:

[Rich-n-Texas]

He quit?...
Most likely got fired for calling his sargent a crack ho.

[GMichael]

She sent you my picture didn't she? :incazzato:

Now, why would she do that? Let me think.


That's okay, you couldn't see my mug through the... uh.... beer mug. :nono:

Are you sure?

[GMichael]

:blush2: :blush2: :blush2: :blush2:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Whatchu talkin bout Willis? :idea: