Hamas and Israel

[Feanor]

Folks, I drawn you attention to a pretty good New York Times article, Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14goldberg-1.html?_r=1). The conclusion is pretty succinct statement of the problem and what must be done ...

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.
The "only small chance" is elusive to say the least. Principally this is because Israel's right-wing ultra-Zionists have done everything in their power to further Jewish settlement in the West Bank and generally undermine any serious peace process. Certainly, their most effective allies in furthering that agenda are Palesitinian and Islamist extremists like Hamas.

In large measure moderate, peace-seeking Israeliis are impotent because the Israeli proportional representation system ensures that if any party is to govern, it must seek some support from the right-wing constituencies. Consequently no sufficient compromises can be made with potentially moderate, peace-seeking Palestinian to given them any hope for a reasonable settlement, or suasion against their own extremists.

The right-wing Zionists second most effective ally is the United States whose government has show no backbone against them or the Israeli goverment they so handily manipuate. How come? The power of the pro-Zionist lobby in the U.S. is so great that no American polititian will stand up to it. Groups such as the AIPAC (http://www.aipac.org/) will ruthless fund pro-Zionist candidates and/or fund the opponents of less than ethusiastically pro-Zionist candidates. It's shameful that U.S. polititians can be so forced to act against both peace and the interests of the U.S. itself.

"Small chance" indeed.

[Rich-n-Texas]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.:prrr:

[Feanor]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.:prrr:

What's to disagree with? I'd have though everyone would rush to agree with me.

[RoadRunner6]

The only good Palestinian is an intelligent Palestinian (unfortunately, there are very few of them...that goes for their supporters too).

[Rich-n-Texas]

Exactly my point (not the dead palestinian part).

[JohnMichael]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.:prrr:



If the thread gets heated it will move to the steel cage. In this day and age this is an important discussion to have. I am sure it is much on the mind of President Elect Obama.


No time outs for Feanor.

[JohnMichael]

The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.




All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.

[Auricauricle]

All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.

...and not ignite. That was beneath you, RR....

This is when I think we should take the extremists on both sides to an artificial moon and let them duke it out until they make peace or wipe each other out...

Barring that, what can we do...?

[ForeverAutumn]

The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

[bobsticks]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.

[Feanor]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way........

Or others that are just oversaturated with the news, tired of the situ, have other priorities or just plain brain numb of ME politics to give a sh!t what happens over there anymore. I fear this won't end in my lifetime so why waste any more time thinking or discussing it.



BTW, I would be one of those.

Damn, did I just contradict myself??????????

[Feanor]

Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.

The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.

[JSE]

The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.


For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't understand why people get all upset when Isreal defends themselves. Hamas lobs rockets into Isreal and they are supposed to sit and smile? What do you think the U.S. would do if some one shot a rocket into our territory? Violence begets violence, Hamas are terrorists and should be dealt with as such.

With that being said I do, for lack of a better word, respect Hamas for taking care of the people in their country when the government fails to do so.

As LDB says, this issue has some history and we won't likely see it resolved.

This is half meant to be humor but I think true just the same, the upside to this battle is it gives a new hot spot for the radicals to fight and many may leave Iraq for a while which could give them an opening to get on their feet. Benlodden had to cut a tape today. I think it was his way of flipping Bush off, saying, "good bye, I'm still here, nah nah nah nah nah". Maybe he can get the Texas Rangers to go after him.

[RoadRunner6]

Sorry, I made a quick knee jerk comment (not serious) that has some history that you old farts might relate to (bad joke which I'll explain later). Busy now, but will explain my feelings in more depth in a day or two. I just have had it with the sympathy for Muslim terrorists (Iraqi's, Iranian's, Saudi's, Palestinians and on and on). The same people who seem to be worried about the civil rights of prisoners in our military POW camps seem to have no worries about the victims of those terrorists who blow up themselves, their enemies and everyone else with absolutely no civilized constraints.

I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

RR6

[bobsticks]

The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.

It's not a plan of action. I'm saying if the Palestinians disarmed there would be peace in the Middle East because it's inkeeping with the general will of the Israeli people...

...and I'm saying if Israel laid down it's arms there would be mass genocide in the region because that's the will of the zealots in charge of Hamas. There is a history of temporary cease-fires, Israeli concessions, and fundamentalist attacks.

Bottom line: young men are dying for the bull**** of old men.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My first post was also tongue-in-check. I suppose Feanor doesn't know me as well as I thought he did.

Nevertheless, I come to AR to have fun and talk A/V. This thread is neither. I'm going to try my damndest to stay out of politics on this non-political (in theory) discussion forum as my New Years resolution. If by chance I contradict myself (I know, I know) feel free to point it out to me.

[Feanor]

For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Yep, the US is part of the problem and has got to be part of the solution. The trick is not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[ForeverAutumn]

I come to AR to have fun and talk A/V. This thread is neither.

You have no obligation to read or participate in any thread that makes you uncomfortable. I ignore threads here all the time.

Personally, I enjoy these off topic discussions. I don't always participate because my knowledge of political issues isn't as great as some others here. But I enjoy reading everybody's different points of view. And every once in a while, I learn something. :)

[Feanor]

It's not a plan of action. I'm saying if the Palestinians disarmed there would be peace in the Middle East because it's inkeeping with the general will of the Israeli people...

...and I'm saying if Israel laid down it's arms there would be mass genocide in the region because that's the will of the zealots in charge of Hamas. There is a history of temporary cease-fires, Israeli concessions, and fundamentalist attacks.

Bottom line: young men are dying for the bull**** of old men.

As far as what happens when who lays down their arms goes, you're totally correct. However the Palestinians will not disarm 'till they get some justice.

Israeli concessions have been patheticaly inadequate, plus they have a tendancy to back-tracking on the least pretext. Hello!! This is largely responsible for the radicalization of Palestinians. Like the NYT article points out, there is no negociating with radicals like Hamas (nor beating them into submission either). Israel has failed to earn the trust and support of the Palestinians are (or once were) inclined to moderation.

[Auricauricle]

This is an AV forum, first and foremost; but I keep returning because this is one of the few places that I can turn to for informed opinion and debate about issues that matter. We have a smart buncha members here and it is you, my brothers and sisters, I turn to at the end of a long day for laughter and tickling the old brain. If I get sharp now and then, it is only because I care about an issue and I have too much regard for the addressee to blow (him) off with a shrug.

I hope that, in saying this we can continue these forums in the spirit of good-natured fun and intelligent intent. I thank you for letting me play on your jungle gym, and invite you to my monkey bar (banana daquiri, anyone?).

[Feanor]

...

I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

RR6

Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter?? Because that is certainly not so. I categorically oppose terrorists and extremists and don't believe you can effectively deal with them -- that is my point as well as the point of the NYT article.

What you've got to do is deal fairly with reasonable, moderate people. To repeat myself, there has been a huge failure on the part of the Israeli government to do this, and as a consequence, radical power has increased.

[Worf101]

I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

"On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

Da Worfster

[kexodusc]

I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

"On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

Da Worfster
Sums up my thoughts better than I could say it. For that I give an uprecedented 5 Kexticles
@@@@@

I'm as opinionated as they come, but on this issue, well there's more than enough blame to go around the table twice and it's just a big **** storm now. :frown2:

[Feanor]

I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

"On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

Da Worfster

I appreciate your longer perspective here. I'm inclined to say it is somewhat at odds with the typical American "Israel is our righteous ally and we've going to stick with them" attitude -- or am I imagining that?

There are a couple of deep ironies with regards to Israel. In the first place it wouldn't exist except for the European, especially British, imperialist history in the region -- that depite the fact the Zionist immigrants had to fight the British to establish the Israeli state. The attitude of many Arabs that Israel is basically a perpetuation of European, and by inheritance, American imperialism is not at all far-fetched.

The second deep irony is that Israel was founded, and is still seen by many Zionist Jews, as a safe haven in the event of possible troubles where they are living. Given the constant strife for 50 years and Israel's unability, if not unwillingness, to achieve peace with its neighbours, one asks, "What's wrong with this picture?"

[Worf101]

The whole question of Israel is a difficult one for me. In 1963 I went from an all black school (PS 40) to an all white predominantly jewish school (PS 201) during the great bussing experiment of the 1960's. My mother did housework for Jewish families. I ate leftover Matzoh, gefilte fish and pickled herring and wore their hand me down clothes. I've lived with, served with, fought with Jews of all stripe. I've known Jewish Zionists, Socialists, Communists, Republicans and anarchists. They are no more monolithic than any race or religious group.

My biggest problem is this....

Can you care for the Palestinian without hating Israel? I believe you can. I must because I value the lives of both equally, this brings me into conflict with my jewish friends. I've value the lives of dead Israelis equally with those of dead Palestinians, if you view the conflict with this basic premise you're in for a world of hurt, particularly here in America.

I don't agree with Hamas firing rockets but they were blockaded and starving they had to get Isreal's and the worlds attention. It was a calculated risk and they knew this going in. Israel and the U.S. wanted elections in the West Bank and Gaza and Hamas, who is more than just armed terrorists, was democratically elected. Isreal and the U.S. want democracy in the Middle East as long as it elects who THEY want. Neither could allow a legitimized Hamas to stand but in fighting Hamas in this matter you legitmize it and weaken FATA and the Palestinian Authority.

Perhaps a new administration in Washington can move the ball along once the dust settlis and the blood dries. Until then.... things will go on as they are now. Constant war puncutated by brief periods of a quazi peace.

Da Worfster

[trollgirl]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.:prrr:

You say that, and I haven't even weighed in yet...

This is all I'm going to say:

The United States used to be a beacon of freedom for most of the rest of the world, but now puts out such beacons everywhere. Israel, or as I prefer to call it Zionist-Occupied Palestine, used to be a David, but has now become a Goliath. It is purely obscene that the main export of both countries is Death.

Laz

[RoadRunner6]

Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter??

No, of course not. However, it seems obvious that your support is with the less radical Palestinians and your posts and the content of the article you quote are obviously anti-Israeli/Jewish. One comment from the article you quote states: "It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief." Can the indescriminate rockets and suicede bombers of the Hamas/Palestineans defeat the deeply held beliefs of the Israelis? (sorry, but I thought I would just throw in a little reverse spin there). I might add that the less radical Palestinians are nowhere near the middle nor are they the peace loving people that I presume you seem to want to portray them as. The attempt to cover your opinions with the anti ulra right wing Zionists rhetoric IMO is simply disguised antisemitism. A pole on the AOL news today indicated that 78% of Americans support Israel over Hamas in the current conflict. I'm sure we are all duped by the ultra right wing Zionists lobby in the US.

An article by Robert Wistrich in part says it much more clearly than I can:

"..........Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, where there was previously no tradition or cultural substructure of Judeophobia. While at the same time in the post-war Western democracies anti-Zionism has provided a vehicle for the re-emergence of anti-Jewish attitudes which were for some twenty to twenty-five years partially submerged. This does not appear to me to be an accidental connection or mere coincidence of events. On the other hand, our analytic understanding is complicated by the fact that today nobody wishes to declare himself openly as an anti-Semite. Even neo-Nazis in the West are careful to wrap their racist mania in the appropriate “anti-Zionist” terminology.........."

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish

No I am not Jewish or even religious for that matter. Politically, I am pretty much dead center with almost equally conservative and liberal views. I am actually amazed at the remarkable restraint that the Israelis have exhibited. Apparently the Bush administration talked them out of bombing the Iranian nuclear weapons plants (how ironic in light of the strong Zionist lobby)).

As far as my unfortunate comment about dead Palestinians: I like Rich come here for a break for the stress at work. I post many times from my portable broadband laptop while on break and lunch time. Discussing audio/HT is fun and relaxing. I have no problem with the off subject threads and everyone is free to post on any subject within reasonable limits. However, I am amazed at the number of off subject threads versus the very low participation in the actual audio/HT sections. As a Poly-Sci major and with the political campaigns of the last year I for one was in overload condition with political talk. I was surpised that other members would want to come here to contune the non-stop political discussions. I never posted in these threads other than to insert some humorous photos. When I saw this current thread I said to myself, Oh no not another political thread. My reaction to the post by Feanor was a quick off the cuff old bad joke that I learned as a kid. The only good Indian is a dead Indian, apparently originally came form old western (cowboys and Indians) movies. People would replace Indian with Yankee fans, Republicans, Norwegians or insert any group to whom you want to issue a humorous good natured insult. My comment was only intended to be a smart-ass tongue in cheek remark. Sorry for those that were offended. My intention is not to argue here with Feanor who has many, many fine threads and posts that I agree with 100%, but to point out my opinion and opposition to the indefensible postions and actions of the Palestinians IMO.

I for one will stay out of the political threads from this post on, period. I see the Israeli/Hamas situation covered hour after hour on the TV, that's enough for me, thanks.

RR6

[trollgirl]

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish

The trouble with your conclusion is that there are Jews who are anti-Zionist, and please do not disgust me with that "self-hater" dreck.

Laz

[Worf101]

I for one will stay out of the political threads from this post on, period. I see the Israeli/Hamas situation covered hour after hour on the TV, that's enough for me, thanks.

RR6
You come in here with a passionate but reasoned response and now want to leave? Shame, I closely read what you had to say and see much validity in it. But the truth is you CAN be critical of Israel and NOT be an anti-semite. There has to be open and honest dialoge that doen't decend immediately into name calling. Your off the cuff joke might have been in bad taste and would've easily been overlooked save for the fact that there are many Israelis and Jews who do feel that the only "good" Palestinian is a "dead" one. But you're right that phrase can and has been used many times and ways over the years. Be that as it may I hope you continue to give your opinion on matters other than LCD's and Blu-Ray players.

Da Worfster

[Feanor]

No, of course not. However, it seems obvious that your support is with the less radical Palestinians and your posts and the content of the article you quote are obviously anti-Israeli/Jewish. ....
I'm not anti-Jewish nor anti-Israeli for that matter. I'm a supporter of a two-state solution and would like to see it implement soon and fairly. The two-state solution by definition respects existence of the Israeli state.

In fact, (just to offend everyone equally), I have been disappointed consistently over the decades Arab states surrounding Israel. Prior to the peace tready with Egypt, the latter did nothing to help the Palestinians and everything to exacerbate the local situation. But today the immediate neighbours of Israel are no longer the problem. They at least tacitly support a two-state solution and fear Islamists like Hamas and Hezbollah. It is principally Iran that is fundamental enemy of Israel today.


... An article by Robert Wistrich in part says it much more clearly than I can:

"..........Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of the world....."

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish ...
Yes, there are anti-Semites out there and some use the cover of anti-Zionism. But the general statement, "Anti-Zionist = Anti-Jewish" is bullsh!t and essentially an attempt to put the state of Israel above criticism -- sorry, that isn't going to work.


...
As far as my unfortunate comment about dead Palestinian ...

RR6
Since you have more or less apologized, you are more or less forgiven.

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", as Harry Truman (or somebody) once said. If controversial, non-audio topics trouble you avoid the Off-Topic Forum as ForeverAutumn wisely suggested.

[ForeverAutumn]

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", as Harry Truman (or somebody) once said. If controversial, non-audio topics trouble you avoid the Off-Topic Forum as ForeverAutumn wisely suggested.

Actually, I just suggested that you don't read the offending thread. Not avoid the forum altogether. I'm just clarifying.

[GMichael]

Notice how rarely I post in this type of thread?

[Feanor]

Actually, I just suggested that you don't read the offending thread. Not avoid the forum altogether. I'm just clarifying.

I apologize for getting it a bit wrong. Best advice, what you say.

[Feanor]

Notice how rarely I post in this type of thread?

You just couldn't resist this one, eh, GM :p

[Auricauricle]

Its sad that all this rhetoric has been allowed to flourish so, even after all these years. Equating anti-zionism to anti-Semitism has been a very effective stick to wield for the futherance of policies and practices that have been heavy handed, if not down-right cruel. On the other hand, Hamas has effectively fed fundamentalist garbage to the uneducated masses, who in desperation lash out at any force that threatens their existence. In effect, both nations have been duped by highly intelligent forces who know how to fan the flames of indignation and discontent. It is those forces who will grow fat as their stooges kill each other in the name of age-old retribution and a better life in the hereafter with Allah.

The United States and the rest of the world needs to intervene, addressing these selfish power brokers saying, "Enough is enough!" Yet, if we are to do so legitimately, we have to clean our own house. Although Obama will soon hold the reins, Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Bush, Rice etc., need to be held to account for much of the abuse of power that has sullied our country's reputation. Without meting justice at home, we cannot exert our influence elsewhere legitimately....

[GMichael]

You just couldn't resist this one, eh, GM :p

Yep, but I couldn't eat just one.:devil: