Sony thrown for a loss

[pixelthis]

Sony has reported their first loss since 1985!!!
ouch!!!

[Feanor]

Sony has reported their first loss since 1985!!!
ouch!!!

Despite the success of Blu-Ray. :rolleyes5:

[kexodusc]

Despite the success of Blu-Ray. :rolleyes5:
A rather small blip on the proverbial radar of Sony's business activities.

Sign of the times, Toshiba and some other big names are expected to announce similar results...poor demand for consumer electronics and the rise in value by the Yen to kick'em when they're down.

I wonder if it'll be restated when more accurate figures from the holiday season come in....it could be a bit worse yet when the final tally is determined.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Its not just Sony, its the entire CE business, and the movie studios as well. Just pointing out Sony does not even come close to describing the health of the industry. Pioneer is under deep stress finanically because they are just now getting to producing a low cost bluray line, and have not even dealt with a lower cost plasma line. Toshiba wants out of the CE business altogether, and may sell its CE business to Sony(that is what I am hearing). There is a good chance that Panasonic will buy Pioneer, or Pioneer will be no more.

All the studios are cutting their screeners list, changing to FEDex ground for delivery of those screeners, and are cutting staff to the bone. The result will be fewer websites doing reviews of Bluray discs, and only the major websites such as Bluray.com, AVS, HTF and a few others providing reviews before the official released dates of the disc.

I think moving forward you are going to see alot of consolidation among CE companies, and among Entertainment companies as well. Everyone is experience economic stress which will cause them to change their business models or die.

This whole mass layoffs that are happening are probably necessary, but is killing sales across the board, as nobody has money to buy anything.

Feanor, yes inspite of the sucess of Bluray which is really Sony's only bright spot, Sony is losing money. Bluray sucess is coming at the expense of DVD. As former DVD buyers migrate to Bluray, DVD sales continue to slide dramatically.

[Mr Peabody]

Pioneer I can maybe understand, they have the best Plasma but not too many people can afford it and their Blu-ray players are expensive. They did drop the bdp05 to $599.00 and it's pretty well stocked with features but it's 1.1 where many are now 2.0, and if memory serves it's lacking the internet connectivity. They are trying to grab some market with their receivers but it's too late and they keep putting crappy ones out that scare people from trying the good ones.

If Panasonic buys Pioneer I wonder if they will keep the plasmas as a high end line. Panasonic TV's are above average but they aren't Pioneer. Yet.

What hurt Sony was having to drop the price of their Blu-ray players down so far before Christmas. A couple members here found the 550 for $299.00, heck of a deal. You have to wonder where Sony would be today without the PS3. They better be giving thanks to whatever higher power they believe for the PS3.

I still can't understand why whoever is keeping Blu-ray software so high.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Pioneer I can maybe understand, they have the best Plasma but not too many people can afford it and their Blu-ray players are expensive. They did drop the bdp05 to $599.00 and it's pretty well stocked with features but it's 1.1 where many are now 2.0, and if memory serves it's lacking the internet connectivity. They are trying to grab some market with their receivers but it's too late and they keep putting crappy ones out that scare people from trying the good ones.

Pioneer has not done a good job of paying attention to the QC of its Chinese factories that manufacturer their receivers, but I think they have a handle on it now. They had to drop the price of the 05 just to stay competitive with the rest of the pack.


If Panasonic buys Pioneer I wonder if they will keep the plasmas as a high end line. Panasonic TV's are above average but they aren't Pioneer. Yet.

I am afraid if Panasonic does not buy Pioneer, they will never catch them in terms of quality of their plasma panels. Pioneer is just that far ahead of the competition in terms of R&D. To answer your question, I hear that the Kuros technology would be at the high end, and Panasonic own panels would make up the mid and low end. This would be an extremely smart investment for Panasonic, as they are going to making Pioneers panels anyway.


What hurt Sony was having to drop the price of their Blu-ray players down so far before Christmas. A couple members here found the 550 for $299.00, heck of a deal. You have to wonder where Sony would be today without the PS3. They better be giving thanks to whatever higher power they believe for the PS3.

I still can't understand why whoever is keeping Blu-ray software so high.

Sony was not hurt by that price drop, as the player still provides them a nice profit per player even at that price. They really have gotten control over the manufacturing and parts prices to the point you are now going to see more bells and whistles for the same amount of money. What has hurt Sony is the slide in LCD prices, and their gaming business which are both a drag on their profits at this time. There is also some wrestling going on at the top of Sony's management. There is some resistance from Japan of giving Sir Howard full control of the company. The best thing for Sony would be to do just that, as nobody in Japan has been able to take Sony to the position where Sir Howard has. Had he not taken control of the Bluray product line, it would have failed eventually in the market. It was his leadership and management skills that secured Warner, and therefore brought the end to the format war. He set this up with one phone call to the head of Warner, and days later the deal was struck. Giving him full charge would be the best thing in the world for Sony.

I still to this day do not understand why folks say that bluray disc costs so much. In the last year, I have paid no more than $24 for most of my titles, and that is about the same as one would pay for a SE DVD. You really need to check out Amazon, they have the absolute best prices, and so does Fry's. You also have to understand that Bluray is still building infrastructure, and as long as that is in process, blurays will always be more expensive than DVD. Remember, the pricing structure is still up to the stores the disc sit in. Fox just lowered the price of their catalogue titles, and they were the more expensive titles on the market. Disney titles have always been priced agressively, and so has Sony's. It will be a couple of years yet until we see Bluray prices in line with current new DVD prices, but it is most surely coming.

[kexodusc]

I still to this day do not understand why folks say that bluray disc costs so much. In the last year, I have paid no more than $24 for most of my titles, and that is about the same as one would pay for a SE DVD. You really need to check out Amazon, they have the absolute best prices, and so does Fry's. You also have to understand that Bluray is still building infrastructure, and as long as that is in process, blurays will always be more expensive than DVD. Remember, the pricing structure is still up to the stores the disc sit in. Fox just lowered the price of their catalogue titles, and they were the more expensive titles on the market. Disney titles have always been priced agressively, and so has Sony's. It will be a couple of years yet until we see Bluray prices in line with current new DVD prices, but it is most surely coming.


I dunno...I know a few places where I can shop and get reasonably priced BluRays but I had to look for them. But they are always more expensive than DVD (which is fair) and at the majority of places where people would go to buy them, and see them in stores (Walmart, Blockbuster, Best Buy, music/video stores etc) the prices aren't exactly great and the back catalogs are often $35-$50. I think its giving consumers the impression they're too expensive. If you don't own a BluRay player, why would you look for BluRays on Amazon or wherever?

I know new releases are most of the business, and most new releases are priced reasonably, but that's only 1 price sticker you see when you scan a rack if your Joe Six-pack. I think BluRay world needs to do a better job of updating the prices of some of those older titles that hit the shelves at $40 or whatever. I'm not paying $45 at BestBuy for Batman Begins, or $40 for WALL-E or Chronicles of Narnia....and BestBuy is an important store because that's where a lot of people go to look at buying new electronics...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8880197&type=product&id=1484301

Amazon is still good, and I've seen some forums citing those Columbia House style video clubs as being cheaper than stores now, so deals aren't hard to find, but first impressions mean everything to people on the BluRay fence...they're seeing the stupid high prices everywhere in person.

[Duds]

LCD IS DEAD!!!


Sony has reported their first loss since 1985!!!
ouch!!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I dunno...I know a few places where I can shop and get reasonably priced BluRays but I had to look for them. But they are always more expensive than DVD (which is fair) and at the majority of places where people would go to buy them, and see them in stores (Walmart, Blockbuster, Best Buy, music/video stores etc) the prices aren't exactly great and the back catalogs are often $35-$50. I think its giving consumers the impression they're too expensive. If you don't own a BluRay player, why would you look for BluRays on Amazon or wherever?

I know new releases are most of the business, and most new releases are priced reasonably, but that's only 1 price sticker you see when you scan a rack if your Joe Six-pack. I think BluRay world needs to do a better job of updating the prices of some of those older titles that hit the shelves at $40 or whatever. I'm not paying $45 at BestBuy for Batman Begins, or $40 for WALL-E or Chronicles of Narnia....and BestBuy is an important store because that's where a lot of people go to look at buying new electronics...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8880197&type=product&id=1484301

Amazon is still good, and I've seen some forums citing those Columbia House style video clubs as being cheaper than stores now, so deals aren't hard to find, but first impressions mean everything to people on the BluRay fence...they're seeing the stupid high prices everywhere in person.

I would never recommend Best Buys for disc purchases. NEVER! They are just too high, as the markup on them is steep. When I was a DVD purchaser, I always bargain hunted, I never went to the first store I step in and just bought. I think the buying public has gotten hip to shopping around instead of impulse buying by now. This Christmas was a testiment to that, as folks did more bargain hunting than in previous years. Given that disc sales are up over 400% from last year, and with Amazon leading the charge in sales over the holidays, I think alot of folks have gotten hip to them as well.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Like The T said, Amazon.com. If I have to wait a little longer for the BD movie to appear, that's fine by me. I've never paid more than $25 (of course I don't have monster collection T does) and I can usually combine the purchase with a CD that I want and get free shipping.

[kexodusc]

I would never recommend Best Buys for disc purchases. NEVER! They are just too high, as the markup on them is steep. When I was a DVD purchaser, I always bargain hunted, I never went to the first store I step in and just bought. I think the buying public has gotten hip to shopping around instead of impulse buying by now. This Christmas was a testiment to that, as folks did more bargain hunting than in previous years. Given that disc sales are up over 400% from last year, and with Amazon leading the charge in sales over the holidays, I think alot of folks have gotten hip to them as well.
True these places are low on my list too, and I've only purchased 1 BluRay of the 40 something I have in a brick n' mortar store, but you'll have to admit that if you're not an a/v nut or movie nut, when you go to places like BestBuy, Wal-Mart, and Blockbuster and you see prices so high, it creates an impression and perception. Especially among the later-adopters. People that don't own BluRay players aren't going to be price-hunting for BluRays titles, they're still in DVD mode, but they're gonna pass the racks at these popular places, see the displays, see the flyers etc and use that information to make their conclusion.

Anyway, I think that's why there's the "perception" among those people that titles are so high, even if it's wrong. Like you, I'm paying under $20 or so on average..Some I've got for dirt cheap, Batman Begins for $12.95, House of Flying Daggers for $10.99 (best BluRay purchase yet!) , Kung Fu Panda, $14 etc, Pan's Labyrinth for $12, etc...all brand new, no pre-viewed discs yet. That's just the ones I've bought since Christmas day...Actually, Iron Man was the most expensive and it was $25-27 IIRC...Dark Knight was on for $21.99

[pixelthis]

LCD IS DEAD!!!


Slightly off topic there butt-munch.:1:

[pixelthis]

If pioneer does get bought out by panny they will become technics part deux

And Toshiba should get outta the CE market, they are no good at it.
And sir talky is understating things a bit, there is going to be major
bloodletting in the CE market, as in other retail markets.
Look for a lot of vernarable old brands to disapear.
And a few form factors(plasma).:1:

[Mr Peabody]

The Christmas prices are where the BR discs should be all the time. Amazon was rockin'em. Even Target ran some new releases at $19.95. I picked up from Amazon the Transformers for $19.95. I really want some of the John Wayne BR's but I can't see paying $20.00 for them after getting Transformers for that.

In a way I'd hate to see Pioneer go. They've been around longer than me.

[Mr Peabody]

Since we are sort of discussing the economy and I can't find my original thread, did you all hear that if Circuit City don't find a buyer they are going on the block?

[kexodusc]

Since we are sort of discussing the economy and I can't find my original thread, did you all hear that if Circuit City don't find a buyer they are going on the block?

I wonder if there's a precedent for banks handling bankruptcy protection going under themselves before the company's insolvency is resolved?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Since we are sort of discussing the economy and I can't find my original thread, did you all hear that if Circuit City don't find a buyer they are going on the block?

Circuit City is officially toast......RIP

[Woochifer]

Pioneer I can maybe understand, they have the best Plasma but not too many people can afford it and their Blu-ray players are expensive. They did drop the bdp05 to $599.00 and it's pretty well stocked with features but it's 1.1 where many are now 2.0, and if memory serves it's lacking the internet connectivity. They are trying to grab some market with their receivers but it's too late and they keep putting crappy ones out that scare people from trying the good ones.

If Panasonic buys Pioneer I wonder if they will keep the plasmas as a high end line. Panasonic TV's are above average but they aren't Pioneer. Yet.

It might be a bit more complicated than that given that Sharp bought an equity stake in Pioneer just over a year ago. At that time, Pioneer announced that they would soon introduce LCD TVs, but nothing has come out of that yet.

If Panasonic buys Pioneer, then they would obviously keep the Pioneers at the top of the line. Too much brand equity built up in the Pioneer name (at least in the TV market) to just squander that away. Pioneer's woes resulted from inefficient plants, and not enough volume to support a standalone plasma panel production line. Moving the panel manufacturing over to Panasonic solves that problem. I


What hurt Sony was having to drop the price of their Blu-ray players down so far before Christmas. A couple members here found the 550 for $299.00, heck of a deal. You have to wonder where Sony would be today without the PS3. They better be giving thanks to whatever higher power they believe for the PS3.

I still can't understand why whoever is keeping Blu-ray software so high.

As T pointed out, the sliding LCD prices probably hurt Sony more than anything. When Vizio took over the North American TV sales lead back in early summer 2007, both Sony and Samsung made huge price cuts on their LCD TVs to increase their volume sales. They promptly vaulted back into the #1 and #2 spots and have been trading time at the top ever since, but in the process both companies significantly lowered their margins to keep the price points competitive. I suspect that Samsung can better handle thinner TV margins because they control more of the manufacturing than Sony does (Sony's LCD manufacturing is a joint venture with Samsung, whereas Samsung has additional capacity that supports its OEM operations).

Blu-ray software is comparable to the early DVD prices, and the list prices at least are close to parity with the special edition DVDs. A lot of the sticker shock that you see with Blu-ray prices is at the retail level. DVD pricing is used as a loss leader to lure customers into big box stores that sell a lot of other stuff. Blu-ray is not really a loss leader because the user base is not yet big enough, especially compared to the number of DVD players out there.

[pixelthis]

It might be a bit more complicated than that given that Sharp bought an equity stake in Pioneer just over a year ago. At that time, Pioneer announced that they would soon introduce LCD TVs, but nothing has come out of that yet.

If Panasonic buys Pioneer, then they would obviously keep the Pioneers at the top of the line. Too much brand equity built up in the Pioneer name (at least in the TV market) to just squander that away. Pioneer's woes resulted from inefficient plants, and not enough volume to support a standalone plasma panel production line. Moving the panel manufacturing over to Panasonic solves that problem. I



As T pointed out, the sliding LCD prices probably hurt Sony more than anything. When Vizio took over the North American TV sales lead back in early summer 2007, both Sony and Samsung made huge price cuts on their LCD TVs to increase their volume sales. They promptly vaulted back into the #1 and #2 spots and have been trading time at the top ever since, but in the process both companies significantly lowered their margins to keep the price points competitive. I suspect that Samsung can better handle thinner TV margins because they control more of the manufacturing than Sony does (Sony's LCD manufacturing is a joint venture with Samsung, whereas Samsung has additional capacity that supports its OEM operations).

Blu-ray software is comparable to the early DVD prices, and the list prices at least are close to parity with the special edition DVDs. A lot of the sticker shock that you see with Blu-ray prices is at the retail level. DVD pricing is used as a loss leader to lure customers into big box stores that sell a lot of other stuff. Blu-ray is not really a loss leader because the user base is not yet big enough, especially compared to the number of DVD players out there.


Pioneer was hurt by exclusively selling plasma.
And sony and samsung were trading on their name to make up for the inefficenies
in their production process.
VIZIO sold a good product at a competitive price, cant beat that.:1:

[Woochifer]

Pioneer was hurt by exclusively selling plasma.

Their production line would have been an issue even if they were making LCDs. Can't expect to compete if they are only cutting one panel per sheet, when Panasonic and Samsung were already up to 8 or 9 panels per sheet.


And sony and samsung were trading on their name to make up for the inefficenies
in their production process.

Actually, their price points got dropped because their production processes were becoming more efficient. The lower these price points go, the less of a price advantage that off-brand TVs like Vizio have. That's why Vizio is now trying cram more high end features into their newer TVs as name brand TVs begin to match their price points.

And Sony and Samsung trade on a lot more than just their name. Their TVs are routinely regarded among the best LCD TVs out there, and they have an extensive customer support infrastructure. That stuff doesn't come for free.