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topspeed
01-13-2009, 11:49 AM
After a Soprano-ish break of 2 years, 24 finally returns. 4 hours into S8, it appears Jack has his mojo back after indisputibly jumping the shark in S7. I like that some of the reveals have already been unmasked, perhaps in an effort to make the show easier for casual viewers to jump in. Whatever the reason, it's nice to have a few answers so early on instead of being left in the lurch.

I will say, I don't know where they found Annie Wershing to play Agent Walker, but she is quite the hottie :ihih:

kexodusc
01-13-2009, 12:14 PM
And I like how after we all vowed to never watch this shark-jumping crapfest of a show again after S6, we all came crawling back :)

And yeah, I liked the first 4 hrs too...

Groundbeef
01-13-2009, 12:59 PM
My wife and I talked about getting back on the 24 saddle, but decided against it. The last season we watched was so wretched, that we couldn't bring ourselves to do it.

Jack Bauer is dead in our eyes. And from the reviews, it doesn't appear that this season is going to be any better.

Auricauricle
01-13-2009, 02:01 PM
Thank God Jack's back! Now we can watch something that is realistic for a change!

topspeed
01-13-2009, 03:01 PM
And I like how after we all vowed to never watch this shark-jumping crapfest of a show again after S6, we all came crawling back
Was it S6? It's been so bad for so long, I couldn't remember which season started the downward spiral. Perhaps my standards have lowered? While I pine for the innovative excitement of S1 and S2 (and, to a lesser degree, S3), everything else on TV is so horrifically bad (True Beauty anyone?) that 24 looks stellar by comparison. Whatever the reason, both the missus and I agreed to start TiVo'ing it again.


Jack Bauer is dead in our eyes. And from the reviews, it doesn't appear that this season is going to be any better.
Do you honestly trust the reviewers on anything? If that were the case, we'd all be rockin' Bose in our homes!

Hey, I agree it got bad. In fact, I remember being astonished as y'all kept talking about the last couple of season long after I'd moved on to whatever was on Discovery. The more I think about it, I'm convinced I didn't even watch one episode of last season. When Jack went after Audrey, I was done.

This season has started out pretty good. Was it as good as when Jack took out President Palmer's assassin in the S3(?) premiere? Well, that's like asking if the rest of the beer is as good as the first sip that hits your lips. Of course not, but it's still refreshing.

Pop open a bottle of 24 and take a swig. You may find a case full of empties lying about before you know it :).

kexodusc
01-13-2009, 03:12 PM
We're also only 4 hrs in...S6 started off decent enough, then came water skis, ramp, etc...
But yeah, so far it's waaaaaay better than I expected.

Screw the reviews. I'll judge for myself. Few reviewers have the balls to write when they enjoy something mainstream that's been blasted previously anyway.

Good analogy by Speedy...this ain't breakin' new ground, but if it kills a few hrs this winter without making my eyes roll, mission accomplished.

Groundbeef
01-13-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm still stuck in the season where the President was almost killed. Then he went into a coma. Then he came out of a coma. Then something else happened. And the poison gas killed people.....all in 3 hours of "real time".

kexodusc
01-13-2009, 06:32 PM
I'm still stuck in the season where the President was almost killed. Then he went into a coma. Then he came out of a coma. Then something else happened. And the poison gas killed people.....all in 3 hours of "real time".
See, I've completely mentally blocked that...it wasn't that hard...it's even therapeutic.

Groundbeef
01-14-2009, 04:51 AM
Well, enjoy your little fantasy drama. I'm going to go watch my favorite show rooted in reality. LOST.

Woochifer
01-14-2009, 11:36 AM
I hope this isn't another big tease like Day 6, which started with a bang (literally) and wound up muffing just about every promising story angle as the season progressed.

This time around, I was drawn in by the promos indicating that this season's heavy villain would be none other than Tony Almeida. Kewl! Jack having to match wits with a villain who's every bit his equal ... sounds like a great season, right?



S P O I L E R A L E R T!!!!!!






But, NO by the end of the third hour, we find out that Tony's actually working undercover to try and foil the terrorist plot! Yes, it's true he did turn and do a lot of bad things, but just for today, he's going back to his old self. Oy!

And having Bill and Chloe along for the ride? This is really stretching the bounds of disbelief suspension, even by 24 standards. I mean, I love having them back and all, but the way they got weaved into the plot borders on ridiculous.

I guess my expectations were somewhat different than where we are after the 4th hour. I was reading that this season would have no CTU (true, but now all the moles and leaks are coming from the FBI, and Bill and Chloe are back), a more personal story, and no White House subplot. I think the White House subplot with a female Senator getting sworn in as President was driven more by the prospect of a President Hillary Clinton than anything -- remember that these episodes were originally written before the writer's strike back in mid-2007 when Hillary was leading in the polls. Fortunately, the White House subplots seem a lot better tied together with the Jack Bauer story arc this time around.

There are enough items to sustain my initial interest (I did watch the 24: Redemption prequel movie, so the African subplot at least has some context), but I'm afraid that some all-too-familiar elements are creeping into the story arc. Hopefully, the extra time off due to the writer's strike has given the writers some time to clean up any loose story threads, and allow them to have a few more completed scripts in the can before they have to start improvising again by season's end (Day Six, I read that they only had 8 episodes written by the time that season's premiere went on the air, and were in a mad rush the rest of the season to keep ahead of the production schedule).

kexodusc
01-14-2009, 11:47 AM
I hope this isn't another big tease like Day 6, which started with a bang (literally) and wound up muffing just about every promising story angle as the season progressed.

This time around, I was drawn in by the promos indicating that this season's heavy villain would be none other than Tony Almeida. Kewl! Jack having to match wits with a villain who's every bit his equal ... sounds like a great season, right?

S P O I L E R A L E R T!!!!!!

But, NO by the end of the third hour, we find out that Tony's actually working undercover to try and foil the terrorist plot! Yes, it's true he did turn and do a lot of bad things, but just for today, he's going back to his old self. Oy!

And having Bill and Chloe along for the ride? This is really stretching the bounds of disbelief suspension, even by 24 standards. I mean, I love having them back and all, but the way they got weaved into the plot borders on ridiculous.

I guess my expectations were somewhat different than where we are after the 4th hour. I was reading that this season would have no CTU (true, but now all the moles and leaks are coming from the FBI, and Bill and Chloe are back), a more personal story, and no White House subplot. I think the White House subplot with a female Senator getting sworn in as President was driven more by the prospect of a President Hillary Clinton than anything -- remember that these episodes were originally written before the writer's strike back in mid-2007 when Hillary was leading in the polls. Fortunately, the White House subplots seem a lot better tied together with the Jack Bauer story arc this time around.

There are enough items to sustain my initial interest (I did watch the 24: Redemption prequel movie, so the African subplot at least has some context), but I'm afraid that some all-too-familiar elements are creeping into the story arc. Hopefully, the extra time off due to the writer's strike has given the writers some time to clean up any loose story threads, and allow them to have a few more completed scripts in the can before they have to start improvising again by season's end (Day Six, I read that they only had 8 episodes written by the time that season's premiere went on the air, and were in a mad rush the rest of the season to keep ahead of the production schedule).

Meh, it was fairly predictable and bit of a letdown I guess, but oddly enough I was hoping for Tony to redeem himself anyway. He's probably been my favorite character since day 1 so I'm curious to see where this season goes. I suspect he's playing the gang and really is a bad guy...double agent or something. Time will tell.

For me the show is as much about the characters as it is the plot - and Tony, Chloe, Jack are all as good as it gets...the new bad guy dude looks kinda bad ass so there's potential.

Hey, if this was S6, the brutality would have been cranked up to "11" by now, and Jack would have hooked up jumper cables to a car battery and Tony's nuts to extract the info. Why go to such extremes when a good ol' fashioned one handed-choke hold will do...:cornut:

nightflier
01-14-2009, 02:30 PM
I watched the last three hours (for the first hour on Sunday, I couldn't get the kids in bed on time). Also, I didn't watch the pre-season Africa episode with Jack doing the great-white-hope thing, but I'm going to guess that there's a whole lot more in there that ties these plot lines together, so I may be off on some of this. Anyhow, these are some of my observations/questions:

- On the question of torture, there seems to be a whole lot of philosophising about that this time. It's almost as if the writers are trying to apologize for it, knowing that it's no longer cool & hip to be hooking up car battery jumper cables to a guy's nuts, to borrow Kex's example.

- Sangala seems to bear a lot of resemblance to the Congo and our checkered (real) history there. Of course the natural connection is with Rwanda, especially since Colonel Dubaku was in the movie about it, but from what's been said of Sangala, it makes it sound a lot more like the Congo, especially considering the economic interest that Sangala has.

- God please, don't let the writers get Jack to bump fuzzies with Rene Walker. This season is still hanging by a thin thread with the public and the reviewers so we really don't need another tear-jerking Audrey drama.

- Janeane Garofalo as the FBI's Chloe (Janis Gold)? That's rich. When I saw that I thought for sure that Chloe was gone, but it looks like she'll be locking bits & bytes with someone who's equally smart & nerdy.

- James Morrison sure is looking tan and "pretty." Sorry, but the frenchie look doesn't exactly make him look as tough as the Bill Buchanan he's supposed to sound like.

- The plot-line about the president's son being tied to the whole Sangala affair is a little bit of shark-jumping, if you ask me. Sorry, but that muddies waters that should not have been muddied - it reminds me too much of the whole Sherry Palmer tie-in. I also think these writers are borrowing too much from previous seasons, showing perhaps that they don't know what to write anymore.

- My guess is that Tony won't have the balls to kill his boss, David Emerson, who "saved him" when no one else cared.

- It looks like Kim Bauer will be back. Not a good move - the girl can't act to save her life, even if she's pretty to look at. Let's hope this time someone kills her off.

- I also think we'll see more of Senator Blaine Mayer. Just a hunch, but I think the whole torture moralizing is going to continue, and that will probably involve him.

- The way they'll break Sangalan PM Matobo out of the safe room is straight out of Panic Room. You'd think they would make these rooms more secure by now. And seriously, how long does it take the FBI or Secret Service to get to his place? I know DC has bad traffic, but it also has security forces around every corner.

- Here's a nice plot scenario for finishing this season: Bill, Chloe, Jack and Tony form an underground group of illuminati who keep the world balanced, who are continuously hunted down by the FBI, the Chinese, the Corporate Interests, and the bad dictators around the world. Ah, you laugh, but seriously, that would make for a few more seasons and chance to finally deviate from the tired Jack-saves-the-US-president's-a$$-each-season plot-line.


Well I sure hope this season keeps up the pace because I'm making a lot of sacrifices to watch it. We're currently switching off on who gets the TV room (aka the new Plasma & surround sound) and who gets the CRT in the bedroom - the latter also gets to put the kids to bed which is never an easy task and seldom succeeds before 9pm. It turns out that 24 will be on at the same time as The %$#^$@ Bachelor on Mondays.

topspeed
01-14-2009, 03:16 PM
So Clint, I'm a little confused, does this mean you're happy it runs against The Bachelor or you are quitely pining for your chance to date the single dad on that show? Laguna is only 5 minutes from Newport you know.

I agree the story arc of the President's son is lame. Her hubby (First Man? First Husband? What do you call the husband of a female pres??) is already seriously annoying me. He can go ahead and die in the next hour or two. Really. It's OK.

As for Kim coming back, I have no problems with that at all. She's had what? 3 or 4 years to hone her craft? Maybe she's can act now. Then again, maybe most of the male viewers, including your humble scribe, could care less. Put her in a perilous situation, perhaps kidnapped and held captive in, oh...say...a trampoline factory, and I'll think she's worthy of an Emmy.

Yes, I'm that shallow.

Woochifer
01-14-2009, 03:23 PM
I watched the last three hours (for the first hour on Sunday, I couldn't get the kids in bed on time). Also, I didn't watch the pre-season Africa episode with Jack doing the great-white-hope thing, but I'm going to guess that there's a whole lot more in there that ties these plot lines together, so I may be off on some of this. Anyhow, these are some of my observations/questions:

The prequel movie is available on DVD, and it includes a documentary about child soldiers in Africa. Watching it helps with understanding some of the plot lines in Day Seven, particularly the Sangala plot, why Jack is testifying before the Senate, and the story arc with President Taylor's son's murder.


- On the question of torture, there seems to be a whole lot of philosophising about that this time. It's almost as if the writers are trying to apologize for it, knowing that it's no longer cool & hip to be hooking up car battery jumper cables to a guy's nuts, to borrow Kex's example.

I always thought the writers broke out the torture scenes when they had some extra screen time they needed to fill in. I read that this season, they already had 20 episodes completed by November, which is very different from Day Six in which only 8 episodes were done by the season premiere.


- The plot-line about the president's son being tied to the whole Sangala affair is a little bit of shark-jumping, if you ask me. Sorry, but that muddies waters that should not have been muddied - it reminds me too much of the whole Sherry Palmer tie-in. I also think these writers are borrowing too much from previous seasons, showing perhaps that they don't know what to write anymore.

That plot thread comes from the prequel movie. President Taylor's son was not involved in the Sangala goings. A friend of his worked for the brokerage whose defense contractor client was transferring money and weapons to Colonel Juma, and when he discovered what was going on, he tried to pass the info onto Taylor's son. But, he was discovered and tortured before he could do that, (presumably he implicated the President's son under torture, even though he had no idea what was going on). The prequel basically ended with President Taylor getting sworn in, and a lot of whispering by the Secret Service agents protecting her son.

Obviously, in between the prequel and Day Seven, Taylor's son got murdered and the perps made it look like a suicide by fabricating a bunch of evidence about shady financial dealings.

Jon Voight played the defense contractor masterminding the whole Sangala plot in the prequel, but he has yet to make an appearance on Day Seven.

Woochifer
01-14-2009, 03:29 PM
As for Kim coming back, I have no problems with that at all. She's had what? 3 or 4 years to hone her craft? Maybe she's can act now. Then again, maybe most of the male viewers, including your humble scribe, could care less. Put her in a perilous situation, perhaps kidnapped and held captive in, oh...say...a trampoline factory, and I'll think she's worthy of an Emmy.

Yes, I'm that shallow.

:lol:

I agree, who cares if she can't act. If the trampoline proves too demanding for her thespian prowess, maybe a car wash or a pool filled with jello will suffice ... :cool:

nightflier
01-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I know I'm going to sound like a softy (not something Clint would ever do), but I hope they keep the torture stuff in check. I've read numerous reports that it desensitizes the viewing public to it's actual use and that isn't good for anyone. Anyhow, I agree that it seems to be what they throw in when the story starts to loose steam, like in S6.

Sugar Beats
01-16-2009, 02:30 PM
Sorry,
I've been a little "slow" on warming up to the new season & I was a HUGE "24" fan for seasons 1~ 4. I agree w/ Groundbeef that I had ultimately decided not to even watch it after the 2 yr. break. I thought the last season was beyond wretched.

I think after the poor showing that made up the last season "24" needs to earn my trust back, & that's fine, if I feel like giving it a chance.

I'm not real kean on some of the "new additions" to the cast either.

Jabeane Garofola doesn't equate "Chloe" to me. I don't think she's even in the same realm.
And Jon Voight? Are you kidding me? All I gotta say about that is "Anaconda!" That and I start rolling just even hearing his name after watching him in that. I mean I know it's not a stellar movie by any means, but after he switched his "accent' like the 4th time, sometimes in the middle of dialogue, I can't really take the dude seriously anymore.

In the first seasons, Jack meant something to me. He spoke to me. I really liked him. He was heroic and bad ass!

Somewhere in the last installement previous to the 2 yr. hiatus, he lost those qualities for me. I'm sure it has to do the writing, script, and such but it still got lost.

Speaking of LOST, that is one show I will def. be tuned in to!

Hope the rest of you guys find that Bauer is worth your time...

Rich-n-Texas
01-16-2009, 06:36 PM
Put the gun down!!!

Give me the key!!!

I'm going to kill you!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

:rolleyes: Again.

Rich-n-Texas
01-16-2009, 06:40 PM
I know I'm going to sound like a softy (not something Clint would ever do), but I hope they keep the torture stuff in check. I've read numerous reports that it desensitizes the viewing public to it's actual use and that isn't good for anyone. Anyhow, I agree that it seems to be what they throw in when the story starts to loose steam, like in S6.
Man, if you ain't a bleeding heart liberal, there ain't no such thing! :rolleyes:

-Or-

In touch with your... feminine side huh?





:biggrin5:

nightflier
01-18-2009, 10:39 PM
How exactly does that make me a liberal? The more people see torture, the more people think it's OK. That gives our foreign service men, military, and all the shady folks in between license to do the same. The problems with that whole way of doing things are:

1. Those that survive our "treatment" and those who know them, will hate us that much more. Call it blowback or whatever, but this is one surefire way to create more American-hating planejackers. Let's all remember that the folks we now refer to as Al Qaeda, are the same folks we trained and called freedom fighters back when Reagan was in charge. Good one.

2. When our guys get caught, our enemies have absolutely no guilt about yanking out their fingernails, tearing off eyelids and boiling their feet. Don't believe me? Check out what's happened to some of the poor bastards who got caught in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Their stories will turn your stomach.

3. To get results from torture, you need to capture a large number of folks, fry them to a crisp, and hope that one of them knows something. Never mind the fact that 99% of people tortured don't know anything, but the whole single-guy-tortured / ticking-time-bomb scenario is a fiction, perpetuated by shows like 24. In reality it's much more like finding a needle in a haystack, except that the haystack are all the inocent people who have to be tortured to find the one needle.

4. The people who really do know stuff don't break. They will reveal partial truths, misleading info, and implicate others who know nothing, until their minds are mush. Most people who are tortured to that point are complete vegetables afterwards. Check out what's happened to our service men who've come back from soviet prisons or the poor saps who've spent some time in Chinese prisons where the technology to break people is unlimited. In the real world, Jack would never have survived that without becoming a complete head-case - showing him completely recovered is telling the public that torture isn't so bad and that people can survive it. Not likely.

5. The success in breaking people depends entirely on how long the "technicians" have to work on the victims. The gruesome stuff you see on 24 and movies like Syriana is actually hollywood theatrics. If information needs to be extracted from a group of people, the prolonged psychological effect of long-term abuse is the most likely to get results, however unreliable these results may be (see above). Gruesome torture is actually widely used throughout the world for punishment rather then acquiring information. 24 completely misleads the public into believing a fantasy description of torture - it's really pretty disgusting.

6. Finally, because of the large numbers that need to be tortured to get results - call it an assembly line of torture, if you will - it turns out that only large bureaucracies are capable of doing it. Only countries like China, the US, and Russia really have the means. Some states like Romania, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and pre-2001 Iraq have/had to spend extensive resources to maintain a repressive system that brings useful results, and much of this bureacratic apparatus is more for spreading fear rather than actually getting results (a good book about how this worked in Iraq is called The Republic of Fear). So ironically, torture at such a scale is really a modern product of an industrialized state. The US has been at the forefront of this disgusting trend - and that is why they typically don't support effective international anti-torture legislation. I hate to break it to you, but after China, the US is the largest manufacturer of torture tools, techniques, and research.

These are simply the facts. You can do your own research if you like, but it's a pretty F'up system. What is portrayed on 24 is just Hollywood nonsense that fuels American ignorance, xenophobia, and calousness about what is really a horrible legacy of abuse. There's nothing liberal about pointing that out, but there is something absolutely moronic in applauding a show like 24 for doing this. I don't know if the director of 24 has an agenda with this, but one thing I can say: he either has no clue about the real world, or he willfully seeks to mislead his audience about it. In either case, it's a gross asault on Human Rights, the historical record, and ultimately our legacy as an "advanced" civilization.

Bleeding Heart Liberal? Yeah, whatever.

kexodusc
01-19-2009, 05:19 AM
. Then again, maybe most of the male viewers, including your humble scribe, could care less. Put her in a perilous situation, perhaps kidnapped and held captive in, oh...say...a trampoline factory, and I'll think she's worthy of an Emmy.

Yes, I'm that shallow.
Please sign my online petition:
www.topspeedfor24S8.com

(not a real website)

kexodusc
01-19-2009, 05:23 AM
:lol:

I agree, who cares if she can't act. If the trampoline proves too demanding for her thespian prowess, maybe a car wash or a pool filled with jello will suffice ... :cool:
And
www.howtosaveTheView.com

Rich-n-Texas
01-19-2009, 05:46 AM
How exactly does that make me a liberal? The more people see torture, the more people think it's OK. That gives our foreign service men, military, and all the shady folks in between license to do the same. The problems with that whole way of doing things are:

1. Those that survive our "treatment" and those who know them, will hate us that much more. Call it blowback or whatever, but this is one surefire way to create more American-hating planejackers. Let's all remember that the folks we now refer to as Al Qaeda, are the same folks we trained and called freedom fighters back when Reagan was in charge. Good one.

2. When our guys get caught, our enemies have absolutely no guilt about yanking out their fingernails, tearing off eyelids and boiling their feet. Don't believe me? Check out what's happened to some of the poor bastards who got caught in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Their stories will turn your stomach.

3. To get results from torture, you need to capture a large number of folks, fry them to a crisp, and hope that one of them knows something. Never mind the fact that 99% of people tortured don't know anything, but the whole single-guy-tortured / ticking-time-bomb scenario is a fiction, perpetuated by shows like 24. In reality it's much more like finding a needle in a haystack, except that the haystack are all the inocent people who have to be tortured to find the one needle.

4. The people who really do know stuff don't break. They will reveal partial truths, misleading info, and implicate others who know nothing, until their minds are mush. Most people who are tortured to that point are complete vegetables afterwards. Check out what's happened to our service men who've come back from soviet prisons or the poor saps who've spent some time in Chinese prisons where the technology to break people is unlimited. In the real world, Jack would never have survived that without becoming a complete head-case - showing him completely recovered is telling the public that torture isn't so bad and that people can survive it. Not likely.

5. The success in breaking people depends entirely on how long the "technicians" have to work on the victims. The gruesome stuff you see on 24 and movies like Syriana is actually hollywood theatrics. If information needs to be extracted from a group of people, the prolonged psychological effect of long-term abuse is the most likely to get results, however unreliable these results may be (see above). Gruesome torture is actually widely used throughout the world for punishment rather then acquiring information. 24 completely misleads the public into believing a fantasy description of torture - it's really pretty disgusting.

6. Finally, because of the large numbers that need to be tortured to get results - call it an assembly line of torture, if you will - it turns out that only large bureaucracies are capable of doing it. Only countries like China, the US, and Russia really have the means. Some states like Romania, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and pre-2001 Iraq have/had to spend extensive resources to maintain a repressive system that brings useful results, and much of this bureacratic apparatus is more for spreading fear rather than actually getting results (a good book about how this worked in Iraq is called The Republic of Fear). So ironically, torture at such a scale is really a modern product of an industrialized state. The US has been at the forefront of this disgusting trend - and that is why they typically don't support effective international anti-torture legislation. I hate to break it to you, but after China, the US is the largest manufacturer of torture tools, techniques, and research.

These are simply the facts. You can do your own research if you like, but it's a pretty F'up system. What is portrayed on 24 is just Hollywood nonsense that fuels American ignorance, xenophobia, and calousness about what is really a horrible legacy of abuse. There's nothing liberal about pointing that out, but there is something absolutely moronic in applauding a show like 24 for doing this. I don't know if the director of 24 has an agenda with this, but one thing I can say: he either has no clue about the real world, or he willfully seeks to mislead his audience about it. In either case, it's a gross asault on Human Rights, the historical record, and ultimately our legacy as an "advanced" civilization.

Bleeding Heart Liberal? Yeah, whatever.
:crazy:

Touched a nerve? I sorry. :(

kexodusc
01-19-2009, 05:52 AM
How exactly does that make me a liberal? The more people see torture, the more people think it's OK. That gives our foreign service men, military, and all the shady folks in between license to do the same. The problems with that whole way of doing things are:

1. Those that survive our "treatment" and those who know them, will hate us that much more. Call it blowback or whatever, but this is one surefire way to create more American-hating planejackers. Let's all remember that the folks we now refer to as Al Qaeda, are the same folks we trained and called freedom fighters back when Reagan was in charge. Good one.

2. When our guys get caught, our enemies have absolutely no guilt about yanking out their fingernails, tearing off eyelids and boiling their feet. Don't believe me? Check out what's happened to some of the poor bastards who got caught in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Their stories will turn your stomach.

3. To get results from torture, you need to capture a large number of folks, fry them to a crisp, and hope that one of them knows something. Never mind the fact that 99% of people tortured don't know anything, but the whole single-guy-tortured / ticking-time-bomb scenario is a fiction, perpetuated by shows like 24. In reality it's much more like finding a needle in a haystack, except that the haystack are all the inocent people who have to be tortured to find the one needle.

4. The people who really do know stuff don't break. They will reveal partial truths, misleading info, and implicate others who know nothing, until their minds are mush. Most people who are tortured to that point are complete vegetables afterwards. Check out what's happened to our service men who've come back from soviet prisons or the poor saps who've spent some time in Chinese prisons where the technology to break people is unlimited. In the real world, Jack would never have survived that without becoming a complete head-case - showing him completely recovered is telling the public that torture isn't so bad and that people can survive it. Not likely.

5. The success in breaking people depends entirely on how long the "technicians" have to work on the victims. The gruesome stuff you see on 24 and movies like Syriana is actually hollywood theatrics. If information needs to be extracted from a group of people, the prolonged psychological effect of long-term abuse is the most likely to get results, however unreliable these results may be (see above). Gruesome torture is actually widely used throughout the world for punishment rather then acquiring information. 24 completely misleads the public into believing a fantasy description of torture - it's really pretty disgusting.

6. Finally, because of the large numbers that need to be tortured to get results - call it an assembly line of torture, if you will - it turns out that only large bureaucracies are capable of doing it. Only countries like China, the US, and Russia really have the means. Some states like Romania, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and pre-2001 Iraq have/had to spend extensive resources to maintain a repressive system that brings useful results, and much of this bureacratic apparatus is more for spreading fear rather than actually getting results (a good book about how this worked in Iraq is called The Republic of Fear). So ironically, torture at such a scale is really a modern product of an industrialized state. The US has been at the forefront of this disgusting trend - and that is why they typically don't support effective international anti-torture legislation. I hate to break it to you, but after China, the US is the largest manufacturer of torture tools, techniques, and research.

These are simply the facts. You can do your own research if you like, but it's a pretty F'up system. What is portrayed on 24 is just Hollywood nonsense that fuels American ignorance, xenophobia, and calousness about what is really a horrible legacy of abuse. There's nothing liberal about pointing that out, but there is something absolutely moronic in applauding a show like 24 for doing this. I don't know if the director of 24 has an agenda with this, but one thing I can say: he either has no clue about the real world, or he willfully seeks to mislead his audience about it. In either case, it's a gross asault on Human Rights, the historical record, and ultimately our legacy as an "advanced" civilization.

Bleeding Heart Liberal? Yeah, whatever.
Good comments.

To be fair I think my buddy Rich's comments were meant to be light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek after some of your earlier rounds, and not to provoke you. He's got a new year's resolution to avoid political threads :D

But a good, somewhat on-topic comment...how much does 24's use of torture desensitize us to its immorality? If simple, fictional TV violence is enough sway their opinion, then surely the "in the interest of our country" attempt at justification of the use of torture would be enough to win support too...I'd like to think people are smarter than that. If they're not, it's too late and additional TV violence isn't going to cause any more harm anyway.

As for torture in general...I always thought the difference between the good guys and the bad guys is that the good guys would exhaust all options before using any means necessary to win. But at some point I guess your back gets pushed against the wall, and as much as I hate to admit it, I think deep down inside I always knew that we elect and appoint people to make that ugly decision for us when it has to be made.

I'm probably in that group that publically doesn't like it, but silently, if it came to the point where it saves our lives I...not accept, but rather consicously ignore its use...which is probably just as bad. Just being honest.

Rich-n-Texas
01-19-2009, 07:56 AM
Good comments.

To be fair I think my buddy Rich's comments were meant to be light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek after some of your earlier rounds, and not to provoke you. He's got a new year's resolution to avoid political threads :D
Yes, I was using it in the sociological sense, not in the political vein. And why did you ignore my second choice flyover? :wink5: = j/k (but I thought you already knew that.)

topspeed
01-20-2009, 01:45 PM
Well, I asked for the First Hubby to get whacked and guess what, if all goes well I'll get my wish! Man, that guy is seriously annoying! Jack is too tied up to save him so unless his son's girlfriend is a former green beret, she should buy the farm too.

But I doubt it.

I didn't see the "Redemption" movie so maybe some of you can fill me in why there are certain Americans that have a vested interest in the African dictator?

nightflier
01-20-2009, 02:15 PM
Fun prediction: the girlfriend kicks a$$, and gets the better of Mr. rubber-gloves, drives the pres's hubby to the white house and gets intercepted by the Sec. of State who then puts the Kabash on the whole thing and returns them to the bad guys, who will probably want to torture them.

Also looks like Jack & Tony's cover is blown in the next hour (from what I saw in the preview). My guess is that Tony hesitates, but then finally does take the shot. Then Jack & Tony proceed onto the rendez-vous with the bad guys anyhow and try to get in to steal the decryption device.

The only problem with all this is that this ends the day too soon. So I guess I'm still hoping for some more interesting plot twists.

Woochifer
03-10-2009, 01:35 PM
Is anybody still watching? :cool:

As mixed a bag as the first four episodes were, I must say that the rest of this season has moved along at a nicely brisk pace. Definitely a step up from the stench of Day Six.

For one thing, the writers are actually following through on the different story threads, and not just creating a bunch of dead ends like they did in Day Six. I like how the story has been peeling back like layers on an onion. When one threat gets averted and a baddie gets taken out, it just leads to yet another perp at a higher level. The CIP device was just the beginning, and that led to General Juma's raid on the White House. Now that Juma's been taken out, we're up to Jonas Hodges (the Jon Voight character) -- and that was something that was very much expected/anticipated by anyone who saw 24:Redemption.

It was only a matter of time before the conspiracy would reach his level, and here he is. And Hodges seems like a perfectly smug scumbag for Jack to match wits with. I would guess that there are a lot of other plot threads connected to Hodges, but after last night's episode, it's back to Jack on the run, and playing a cat-and-mouse game with both Hodges and the Feds.

SPOILER ALERT

I thought that the Tony-Bill-Chloe Underground story didn't go as far as I would have liked, so it was really sad to see Bill get taken out last night. The Tony Almeida thread has pretty much gone into the background, and how long has Chloe been in that FBI lockup? Something tells me that Chloe's gonna be in a world of hurt soon.

I'm also happy to see Agent Pierce back in action (he's the last remaining cast member from Day One, aside from Jack). But, that conversation he had with the First Daughter really creeped me out. What the hell happened to Martha Logan? And did the First Daughter have anything to do with it?

The setup for Day Seven wasn't been what I would have preferred (i.e., a more pared down and personalized storyline for Jack), and indeed the absurdity meter is close to getting pegged at this point. But, I think 24 was smart by basically dispensing with any pretense at realism (even the torture theme seems all too self-aware, and more of a wink-nod at the audience), and just going all out on the thrill ride and suspense elements. To that end, this season has done very well so far. At the very least, it has maintained my interest and gotten a decent flow and pace once again.

kexodusc
03-10-2009, 04:48 PM
I'm still watching, and yeah, the first few episdoes sorta seemed like a half-decent, toned down 24 which was kind of refreshing and at least mildly interesting. But the last few have really taken the show to a new level IMO. I'm actually interested and satisfied with it again for the first time since Season 4 I think. I haven't watched this weeks yet as I'm out of town and my wife wouldn't let me so thanks for the Spoiler Alert, Wooch...hope I'm not let down...I'll find out tomorrow night.

topspeed
03-16-2009, 09:17 AM
We bailed two episodes ago. The "absurdity meter" as you so aptly put it didn't just peg for us, it spun wildly out of control and was last seen blowing through the roof of my living room. The characters were simply getting a little too annoying for me; The President, First Daughter, Hot FBI girl w/ freckles (whatever her name was). I was ready for all of 'em to buy the farm. When you don't care about the characters anymore, that's a good sign to move on.

nightflier
03-17-2009, 02:39 PM
Is it just me, or does this season/day seem to be several disjointed sub-stories? It just seems like they are held together by too thin of a thread.

(spoiler alert)

By the way, I was kinda pissed that Jack finished off that last blond guy so quickly. He looked to be a worthy adversary. Good thing that Tony is getting back into the story. I wonder what doughnut joint he was hanging out at the last few hours - a lot happened.

Woochifer
03-17-2009, 03:48 PM
We bailed two episodes ago. The "absurdity meter" as you so aptly put it didn't just peg for us, it spun wildly out of control and was last seen blowing through the roof of my living room. The characters were simply getting a little too annoying for me; The President, First Daughter, Hot FBI girl w/ freckles (whatever her name was). I was ready for all of 'em to buy the farm. When you don't care about the characters anymore, that's a good sign to move on.

Too bad you pulled the ripcord. I actually thought that the last couple of episodes were among the best that 24 has done since Day Five.

The absurdity meter is actually something that the New Yorker entertainment blog uses for their tongue-in-cheek weekly summations of 24, so I'll admit it wasn't my idea! :hand:

You're right in that the characters are a bit thin on audience involvement (can't think of any new characters I'd care about if they got wasted). But, as I mentioned, the writers seem to treat this season as a thrill ride from one impossible situation into another, and I prefer that approach over the more phony character development that plagued Day Six.


Is it just me, or does this season/day seem to be several disjointed sub-stories? It just seems like they are held together by too thin of a thread.

(spoiler alert)

By the way, I was kinda pissed that Jack finished off that last blond guy so quickly. He looked to be a worthy adversary. Good thing that Tony is getting back into the story. I wonder what doughnut joint he was hanging out at the last few hours - a lot happened.

Actually, I think this season has held up quite well because they've done a better job of following up the story threads to their conclusion, and linking things together. By comparison, Day Six was a mess, with a lot of story lines that went nowhere or abruptly cut off. I'd say that this season is not quite at the level of Day One, Day Two, or Day Five, but certainly a lot better than Day Three and Day Six.

This season, they had 20 episodes in the can by the time the premiere aired (with all principal photography completed by December), whereas on Day Six, only 8 episodes had been completed by the time the season started. I read that they're already set to begin filming Day Eight in April, and that this might all be one continuous storyline leading up to the 24 feature film after Day Eight.

The only narrative from Day Seven that has felt slightly disjointed was the transition from Juma's White House raid to the plot by Hodges' Starkwood (Blackwater) -- but, it's nowhere near as disjointed as Day One when the plot resolved the Palmer assassination/Kim kidnapping plot and then had to reboot and introduce the Drazen storyline. In this case, the writers didn't let things linger for a couple of hours like they did on Day One.

If you saw 24: Redemption, you knew that at some point, all roads would lead to Jonas Hodges, and that's where things are right now. In a way, everything so far has been a prologue to the main story, which is Jack matching wits with Jonas. It's also interesting that the overarching theme has shifted from the ethics of torture to the wisdom of creating mercenary armies. The thing I'm wary of is the rest of this season devolving into yet another WMD chase.


SPOILER ALERT


Last night's episode was a bit disappointing/shocking in that Jack's budding alliance with his new BFF Senator Mayer got cut down in a hail of gunfire. I love Kurtwood Smith (yet another Robocop alum on 24 -- all that's left is Ronny Cox and Nancy Allen), and would have liked to see more of his character. I thought that Mayer was going to betray Jack and direct the DC cops to arrest him. But, the Starkwood assassin struck and that was that. I thought he was expendable, since they didn't really spend much time building up his character.

Getting Tony back into the storyline should be interesting, because I don't think he's 100% on board with Jack. So far, the Tony Almeida storyline has been the most disappointing one this season.

nightflier
03-17-2009, 03:59 PM
Starkwood = Blackwater, I didn't catch that one. If I remember right from one of my linguistics classes, wood is synonymous with water in some literary contexts.

Yes, the WMD chasing is a disappointment.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Tony and Jonas also have a history that goes a little deeper.

Woochifer
04-16-2009, 11:26 AM
HOLY SHEEEEOTTTTTT!!!!

I have no idea what to make of the latest plot twist. It pushes dangerously close to beyond absurd, but it also sets up a very strong push to the finish for the last 5 hours.



SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!






What the F is up with Tony?! I must say that 24 is really pushing the absurdity meter to the breaking point with this latest plot twist. But, it is probably the most shocking revelation (and one that requires the most twisted logic) since Nina was revealed as a Serbian terrorist in Day One.

The season so far has been a thrilling return to form, even if it has become more cartoonish in the process. With a few minor changes (i.e., Jack finally accepting treatment from Kim, Tony killing Larry solely to escape federal custody -- no bioweapon redux) Monday's episode could have easily been the season finale, and it would have been an excellent wrap for a decent season. But, with Tony going rogue with a bioweapon in hand, we still have this final reset button to contend with.

I knew that something was going to come up because of Tony's reluctance to join Jack on the bioweapon recovery, and we still don't know who Tony was working with earlier in the day when he got the intel on Juma or sat around at that D.C. cafe. I just didn't expect Tony to go Soprano on Larry Moss!

Earlier in the season, I was complaining about how conveniently Tony got turned into a good guy again. I thought that a Jack v. Tony storyline would create the most compelling drama, and now we very well might have it. It's just that the setup in getting to this point is really pushing things.

The resolution on the Jonas Hodges story seemed a bit quick, but it's obviously not over. And the Kim Bauer story seems to be filling time before Jack goes back out there.

nightflier
04-22-2009, 01:54 PM
Earlier in the season, I was complaining about how conveniently Tony got turned into a good guy again. I thought that a Jack v. Tony storyline would create the most compelling drama, and now we very well might have it. It's just that the setup in getting to this point is really pushing things.

Naw, Tony's going to come out as having infiltrated the top level of the Jonas & company conspiracy and come out a good guy. If anything, Tony was loyal to Buchanan and that would fit the storyline. Jack's meddling got in the way of Tony's cover and that's why he had to stop him by taking the drugs away. Anyhow the whole jack-on-drugs theme is reminiscent of another season and was getting tired. Let him get the friggin' cure from Kim and then set him off to torture Jonas and catch up with Tony.

Probably won't happen that way, but what's wrong with a little speculation?

Woochifer
05-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Three hours to go!

Everything's still moving along at a brisk pace, but I'm still having trouble grasping Tony's full 360 turn. Lots of holes still don't make sense. Interesting twist that they've unraveled the plot to frame an innocent Muslim for the pending bioattack on the DC Metro.

Seems that these next three hours are setting up a bunch of cliffhanger material for Day Eight (we already know that Keifer is coming back for another day, so it's clear that Jack will accept treatment for his condition at some point). I say this because the entertainment sections have already written up articles indicating that next season will set 24 in New York, and take place three weeks after this season's events. Very clearly, not everything will neatly wrap up when the clock strikes 8am.

The Jack v Tony confrontation is coming soon, but I still don't know what to make of this latest shadow conspiracy that Tony is supposedly working for. Looks like the more intriguing subplot is with the White House, where we have no idea who's behind the latest machinations with the First Daughter. Is Aaron involved?

nightflier
05-09-2009, 07:56 PM
If anything, Aaron will thwart whoever is involved, but I seriously doubt he's on the wrong side on this one. It is interesting that they're giving him quite a bit of screen-time.

Looks like Tony's going to get pretty "jacked up" in the next hour, so we'll know if he really is on the wrong side of this one. Looks like Chloe is getting a bit more screen-time too. Maybe there's more going on at the FBI, too...

Woochifer
05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Another bad day has ended for Jack Bauer, and he has accepted his own demise and even called back that Muslim cleric to handle his last rites.

BUT, we already know that Day Eight begins filming next week and the story will be set in New York a few weeks after Day Seven's events.




SPOILER ALERT






So, it looks like all of the antagonists and protagonists made it through the last couple of hours, including Tony, Agent Walker, and Alan Wilson. The Tony Almeida story crept back to at least some fleeting grasp of plausibility with the revelation that he's been playing both sides, and working his way up the ladder to get his face time with the Wizard behind the curtain.

The final episode kinda reminded me of Day One, where it was all about Jack trying to save his family, and David Palmer choosing moral clarity even if it meant splitting up his family.

The ending with Jack in a coma was a bit strange, but since anyone who reads entertainment news knows that Day Eight is already in preproduction, it was all a matter of how Jack's life would be saved. I actually thought that Kim would get killed and Jack would reluctantly accept the stem cell procedure now that she's gone.

But, instead we'll probably start Day Eight with a pissed off Jack who'd already accepted his own death. Maybe we'll find out that the stem cell procedure killed Kim. Should be interesting to see where Agent Walker winds up, now that she decided to go rogue on Alan Wilson.

All in all, Day Seven was a huge improvement over Day Six, but it strained plausibility way too many times, and the Tony Almeida plot had too many twists to be believable. But, I do like that the plot threads were more personalized and there was more emphasis on personal peril than last season. Now, we'll see how they move on Day Eight. Fortunately, the writers didn't leave a huge setup, just a couple of minor cliffhangers. In previous years, the more promising setups were quickly squandered (i.e., when Jack got shipped off to China, when Jack had to fake his own death).

nightflier
05-20-2009, 03:45 PM
Well, I got one thing right: Tony wasn't such a bad guy after all.

I like the fact that Bob Gunton (Ethan Kanin) came back. He came off as a bit of a softie (maybe even having the hots for President Taylor), but he showed his mettle in the last hour. He could have done anything with the info, but he did the right thing. I'm also glad that the pres told her daughter Olivia (Grayden) to take a hike. She was wayyy too unstable. I didn't like her in Jericho, and she was equally unlikable here.

We also never found out if Tony's girlfriend (Price-Francis) really died. If she somehow survived, you can bet she's going to be one peeved-off ex. And her boss, Wilson (Patton), is going to be a tough nut to crack, although I'm sure agent Walker can crack some nuts, especially after loosing two boyfriends in one day. But he's going to survive that, and then there's no telling how long the FBI will be able to hold him before the rest of the conspiracy members can spring him or kill him. And when he gets out, he's going to be one mean SOB (even if he sounds like a soprano on account of having lost his nuts in that interrogation room). He could even go rogue and be another Drazen-like psychopath.

Lots of loose ends to still tie up in day 8. Can't wait.

Rich-n-Texas
05-20-2009, 08:47 PM
...SPOILER ALERT....

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA... Yeah, okay :D

PUT THE GUN DOWN!!!

GIVE ME THE KEY!!!


I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

:incazzato: