Speakers for Classical Music for Rotel RB 1070 (budget: upto 2k$)

[Dev]

Hi everyone!

I recently bought a new Rotel RB 1070 pre amp and RC 1070 power amp and have not bought any speakers yet and need your guidance to avoid wasting my money.

I listen only to classical music and as i mentioned my budget is upto 1k - 2k USD only.

The power amp requires min of 4ohms impedance and is rated for 130W/ch at 8 ohms.

Many thanks!
Dev

[blackraven]

Magnepan MG1.6 QR's www.magnepan.com They are excellent for classical music as well as jazz, acoustic and blue's. Also consider Thiels but they may run more than 2k. http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/cs1_6/cs1_6nws.html

You have many choices with a 2K budget. But for the money and if you don't mind the door panel look, go with the Magnepans.

[RGA]

Depends on the size of the room and how much space you have. For a smaller room the Audio Note AX Two with Stands would be quite nice for $700 + stands (I recommend Skylan out of Alberta for quality and price)

Bigger room you could look into the Magnepan 1.6, B&W 604S3, - both with varying degrees of compromises.

I'd also check out Gershman Acoustics X1 (a little bass shy without the matching Sub 1) and PMC's line of speakers (with the silk dome tweeters not the metal domes). They should be in the middle of your price range. But they are nearfield monitors requireing you to sit relatively close and in a smallish room depending on the model.

[bobsticks]

I'll agree with the guys' assertion that Maggies will do a job for you on classical music, and also agree that the size of your room will be impactful on your choice.

To throw out another name, I have heard on several occasions a Rotel/Dynaudio combination that I thought had excellent synergy (surprisingly, much more so than Rotel/B&W).

Welcome to the forums, btw. It sounds like you're getting off to a good start.

[Dev]

Forgot to mention, my living room is of ~400 sq feet area and i listen at not-so-high volume level.

[RGA]

Maggies don't sound very good at low volumes and they need to play louder to sound open. They're limited in that sense as well as they also don't like to be pushed. They have a volume sweet spot and a very very very tiny listening window - what is referred to has a head in the vice listening position. They're tough to position and you must sit in one very small spot - otherwise the entire thing can sound pretty dreadful. But if you have a complimentary room and you can listen without moving your head much and you listen louder but not too loud and bass isn't important then they can be very nice. For me personally though it's too much work and not quite enough reward - but I stress also that MANY people love them and by all means you may be one of them and they're certainly worth an audition - after all what have you got to lose.

In a lower budget I would try to avoid metal tweeters in general. Sonus Faber and Wharfedale, might also be added to the list at opposite ends of the pricing but in your budget perhaps. Higher sensitivity will generally perform a lot better at low volume but that is general - the AX Two under a grand would be my choice. And it sounded quite nice with the Rotel RA-02 - though it does prefer Tubes - which would be my next upgrade and having an easy to drive speaker is not a bad idea. (Thinking a few upgrades down the road).

[Ajani]

Hi everyone!

I recently bought a new Rotel RB 1070 pre amp and RC 1070 power amp and have not bought any speakers yet and need your guidance to avoid wasting my money.

I listen only to classical music and as i mentioned my budget is upto 1k - 2k USD only.

The power amp requires min of 4ohms impedance and is rated for 130W/ch at 8 ohms.

Many thanks!
Dev

I previously owned a Rotel RC1070/RB1080 Combo & had good results with a pair of Mission V63 Towers... However, if I still had that combo, my top choice of speakers would be the Revel Concerta F12 ($1.5K).... If you are willing to trade in some bass response, then you could also consider the PSB Imagine T, B&W CM7 & Epos M16i (all $2K)...

[Feanor]

Dev,

Welcome to AR Forums.

Put me down as another vote for Magneplanar MG 1.6QR. Given appropriate room setup and adequate power, they will beat anything in their price range for accoustic music. I have owned these speakers for about 3 years with no plans to replace them -- ever.

See this earlier thread on the subject of the MG .16 ... http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=27560&highlight=magneplanar

They sound perfectly fine at low volumes -- contrary to RGA's assertion. They are not really difficult to position except that they need to be 2.5 - 5 feet from the wall behind and 1.5 feet or more from sidewalls. Their "sweet spot" is a little narrow, but not too bad at about 4 feet side to side at 10 feet from the speakers. Magnepan recommends a minium amplifier power of 50 watts per channel which is fine for restrained volumes in a small medium room, in a 400 ft^2 room, I suggest at least 100 wpc.

See a pic of these speaker in my listening room which is about 11.5' x 20; the speakers are about 3' from the wall though they migt look closer.
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SysPic-Nov07-900.jpg

[Dev]

Thank you all for quick reponse - i had no idea this forum is this active! By the time i added my room config i did not notice there were 3 responses already!!

I will try all the sugggestions, my only fear is i may not have all available in my city - I live in New Delhi, India. So far B&W, Dali (no one has suggested it, I have noted), Maggies and Dynaudio are confirmed and i am searching for dealers for other brands.

It looks to be very busy week ahead and i am looking forward to it!!

[Pat D]

Thank you all for quick reponse - i had no idea this forum is this active! By the time i added my room config i did not notice there were 3 responses already!!

I will try all the suggestions, my only fear is i may not have all available in my city - I live in New Delhi, India. So far B&W, Dali (no one has suggested it, I have noted), Maggies and Dynaudio are confirmed and i am searching for dealers for other brands.

It looks to be very busy week ahead and i am looking forward to it!!

I haven't heard any of the Dali speakers in your price range. A few years ago, I heard the Dali Helicon 400, which was quite nice, but the current iteration is even more expensive. They're a good, well known speaker manufacturer, so Iadvise you to audition their speakers.

I have been favorably impressed with the Dynaudio speakers I have heard. They tend to be insensitive and 4 ohm impedance, but your Rotel amplifier should do fine. Their standmount speakers also have good bass response for small speakers. I believe their floor standing speakers are above your price range. What about Quad speakers? Are they available? A lot of people seem to like their dynamic speakers, though I have only heard a little one.

[mlsstl]

I had Maggie 1.6QRs for several years and really enjoyed them. I had no problem with them at lower volumes. There is a good chance I'd still own them today if I hadn't moved.

The only catch was when I moved 3 years ago they simply didn't fit well in the new listening room. It was smaller and I was unable to place the speakers far enough out from the rear and side walls.

I ended up selling them and now have a pair of Spendor SP1/2Es which are perfect for the new room. They are very similar in that the sound from both the Maggies and Spendors has a ease that is very natural. They are both wonderful for classical or any other primarily acoustic music from jazz to bluegrass. You could get the SP1/2E for under $2K used or one of their newer "S" series.

However, some classical music buffs want very deep bass from their speakers, particularly if they listen to the larger orchestra works or pipe organ. Neither the Maggie nor Spendor are known for their deep bass. A plucked or bowed double-bass sounds incredibly lifelike in my room but you won't get the full effect of a kettle drum or low C from a pipe organ. It doesn't bother me but one could always add a subwoofer down the road.

[bubslewis]

I'll throw in yet another reommendation for Maggie 1.6's. I've had mine for a couplle of years and I haven't got tired of listening to them at all. They are the kind of speakers that you can listen to for a long period of time with absolutely no ear fatigue whatsoever.

I listen to a lot of rock music, but other genres as well. I recently burned a disc of movie soundtracks, including themes from Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Ben Hur, Star Trek, Saving Private Ryan, Aliens, Kelly's Heroes, Lawrence of Arabia, among others. The string sections of the various ochestras sounded very good, The horn sections were absolutely outstanding. The Maggie's clarity and depth are simply joyous when playing this type of music. And that's from computer downloaded CD burns from I Tunes.

I like to listen to the Maggies at an average-to-slightly-above-average-level. The "quieter" the music, the more I tend to tweak up the volume. This should work for your particular tastes in music very well.

One other thing, The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra does an outstanding job with practically every recording they make. They delve into a lot of areas (classical, soundtrack, themes, etc). Great source for the "quiet" music I was referring to.
tx,
Bill

[Dev]

I haven't heard any of the Dali speakers in your price range. A few years ago, I heard the Dali Helicon 400, which was quite nice, but the current iteration is even more expensive. They're a good, well known speaker manufacturer, so Iadvise you to audition their speakers.
....

Indeed, Helicon is way beyond my budget. But they have Ikon 6 an Ikon 7 series which is very much in the limits. I came across decent reviews as well so I certainly plan to audition them. Would be glad if anyone who has had experience with them shedding some light.

Maggies seems to be the majority's recommendation but their bass response has added to a big negative already - the dealer quoted price at 3.5K!!! Now that makes it far too expensive (i have a mortgage to pay as well:sad: ).

Feaner: Thanks a lot for the pic. That was very helpful.

B&W 683 anyone? I read they have good bass response.

[bubslewis]

Indeed, Helicon is way beyond my budget. But they have Ikon 6 an Ikon 7 series which is very much in the limits. I came across decent reviews as well so I certainly plan to audition them. Would be glad if anyone who has had experience with them shedding some light.

Maggies seems to be the majority's recommendation but their bass response has added to a big negative already - the dealer quoted price at 3.5K!!! Now that makes it far too expensive (i have a mortgage to pay as well:sad: ).
Feaner: Thanks a lot for the pic. That was very helpful.

B&W 683 anyone? I read they have good bass response.

$3.5K!! That's awful. 1 and a half years ago they were going for $1.75K in the US. I don't think they cost much more than that today. Are you stuck with that one dealer or is there anybody else who offers Magnapan so you can compare prices? Are you sure the dealer was quoting the price for a 1.6, and not a Maggie 3.6?

[mlsstl]

B&W certainly has their following, but I'm not a particular fan of theirs, especially for acoustic music.

I would strongly encourage you to listen to any candidates yourself, preferably in your own room. Bass - as with any frequency band - has a number of characteristics. How strong it is in terms of loudness, how deep it goes (which can be very deceptive), how "tight" it is, and how well it integrates with the rest of the speaker's output. (If you've ever heard a badly integrated subwoofer you know how annoying the last item can be.)

Since bass is extremely room sensitive, that's the reason for suggesting you audition in your home if at all possible.

As noted, my Spendors aren't famous for deep bass, but I've never heard a more lifelike double bass anywhere else. (Get yourself a copy of Orlando Lopez's "Cachaito" album for some stunning jazz double bass work. He's the bassist from the Cuban "Buena Vista Social Club" albums.)

As an alternative to buying new, some people take the approach of buying used equipment blind, just based on reputation. Then if they don't care for it, they can resell it for about what they paid. Not everybody's cup of tea (especially since speakers tend to be expensive to ship) but it might be an alternative for you if you are interested in equipment that you just can't audition before you buy.

[Ajani]

Indeed, Helicon is way beyond my budget. But they have Ikon 6 an Ikon 7 series which is very much in the limits. I came across decent reviews as well so I certainly plan to audition them. Would be glad if anyone who has had experience with them shedding some light.

Maggies seems to be the majority's recommendation but their bass response has added to a big negative already - the dealer quoted price at 3.5K!!! Now that makes it far too expensive (i have a mortgage to pay as well:sad: ).

Feaner: Thanks a lot for the pic. That was very helpful.

B&W 683 anyone? I read they have good bass response.

B&W's should be a good choice for Classical (considering that several major classical recording studios use them)... But as you have probably already realized, speaker selection is a very personal thing... we all have our favorites... so in the end you'll just have to audition what you can and pick your favorite...

[Pat D]

Indeed, Helicon is way beyond my budget. But they have Ikon 6 an Ikon 7 series which is very much in the limits. I came across decent reviews as well so I certainly plan to audition them. Would be glad if anyone who has had experience with them shedding some light.

Maggies seems to be the majority's recommendation but their bass response has added to a big negative already - the dealer quoted price at 3.5K!!! Now that makes it far too expensive (i have a mortgage to pay as well:sad: ).

Feaner: Thanks a lot for the pic. That was very helpful.

B&W 683 anyone? I read they have good bass response.

I haven't heard any of the Dali Ikon speakers but the measurements for the Ikon 6 in Stereophile look quite good. The frequency response is a little less even in the midrange than I would like but it's quite good really, perhaps a little tizzy on top (a slight cut with the treble control might make an improvement, but they have quite good dispersion and should image well. They look to have useful bass to below 30 Hz, and I presume the Ikon 7 would go even lower.

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/706dali/index3.html

In your price range, I tend to prefer standmount speakers for value. One can get a subwoofer later for the deep bass. The Dynaudio Focus 140 measures very well (another I have not heard), so it would probably sound even better than the Ikons. The measurements indicate it actually has useful bass down to about 30 Hz but it would not have as great an output capability in the deep bass as an Ikon 6 or 7.

I would like to suggest Canadian speakers such as the PSB G-Design Series and Paradigm Studio Series (I haven't heard the current models), but I have no idea whether they are available in New Delhi. They would have some floor standers in your price range, as well as standmounts. With a little dealing, you could probably get their topline standmounts (the Paradigm Signature S2 and PSB Sychone One B) for less than $2K.

I haven't heard the lower priced B & W speakers for a long time. Again, they make some very good speakers.

I audition speakers initially using recordings of full orchestra with massed strings, male and female vocals, mixed chorus, and piano. Most speakers don't pass. Then I can audition the ones that do pass at greater length.

[RGA]

Feaner - "They sound perfectly fine at low volumes -- contrary to RGA's assertion."

Well no they don't contrary to your assertion - most panel guys who own this panel say the SAME thing. The dealer in BC says the same thing and they sell them. And I continually get the same result. And the room is not too big. Denying these aspects does people a huge disservice in my view. Of course low volume is relative - if your hearing is going and your in your fifties+ then maybe high volume to you is pretty quiet.

[Feanor]

Feaner - "They sound perfectly fine at low volumes -- contrary to RGA's assertion."

Well no they don't contrary to your assertion - most panel guys who own this panel say the SAME thing. The dealer in BC says the same thing and they sell them. And I continually get the same result. And the room is not too big. Denying these aspects does people a huge disservice in my view. Of course low volume is relative - if your hearing is going and your in your fifties+ then maybe low volume to you is pretty damn loud.

What? Are you accusing me of failure to disclose, RGA. :hand: I deny the "these aspects" because I don't hear them. I should think if my hearing was going I'd want to play at louder not quieter. :out:

There are several MG 1.6 owners around here. They have endorsed this speaker and haven't lined up to agree with the "don't sound good at low volumes" BS. Possibly the 1.6's sound even better at higher volumes, (not that I'm saying that), but it's not that they don't sound good at lower volumes

[Dev]

Bubslewis: that's true, I reconfirmed. The price for 3.6 series is 7k!! I feel like complaining to Maggies manufacturer - this dealer is killing their pdt. Since he is selling BnW as well Maggies guys will be interested I am sure

mlsstl: no dealer for Spendors here I am afraid. Buying used equipment in India is not an option since there are not many users around. I certainly would have gone for that over there in US.

So the probable list so far is Dynaudio, Dali, Ravel Concerta F12. I will check BnW as well.

[Florian]

I disagree with RGA as well, yes Maggies tend to open up at a higher volume level. Other systems do this better but they are excellent speakers. Of course if you are into Shostakovichs's 8th Symphony, 1812 Overture from Tchaikovski (MarchSlave) etc... you need a system with real balls to make it alive. Most systems do not and are restricted which is why for huge classical pieces you can sort out 90% of all speakers in my opinion. For a small string quartet and soft listening maybe go with RGA's general recommendation above everything, regardless of situation and buy an Audio Note speaker.

Cheers

[RGA]

What? Are you accusing me of failure to disclose, RGA. :hand: I deny the "these aspects" because I don't hear them. I should think if my hearing was going I'd want to play at louder not quieter. :out:

There are several MG 1.6 owners around here. They have endorsed this speaker and haven't lined up to agree with the "don't sound good at low volumes" BS. Possibly the 1.6's sound even better at higher volumes, (not that I'm saying that), but it's not that they don't sound good at lower volumes

I was busy and miswrote - I edited my last post.

First you said contrary to my assertions - may I ask why my assertions are incorrect but your ARE correct? Yes I may like Audio Note but at the same time most panel guys only ever recommend their brand of panel - or the ones they used to own. Which in fact makes them not unlike me - oh except that I have actually heard all the speakers in question and therefore have an actual frame of reference as to which does what better and not better or even good.

I am sure some magnepan 1.6 owners feel the way you feel - it's mostly related to one's experience and what one compares to. Soundhounds has numerous speakers and systems to compare to - some dealers may be letting their customers compare to $300 Bose in which case maybe the 1.6 is a champ at low volume. Maybe Magnepan at Soundhounds is simply up against a lot better competition. I suppose I'm just spoiled. I'm used to speakers that can present realistic pressure of instruments.

[RGA]

I disagree with RGA as well, yes Maggies tend to open up at a higher volume level. Other systems do this better but they are excellent speakers. Of course if you are into Shostakovichs's 8th Symphony, 1812 Overture from Tchaikovski (MarchSlave) etc... you need a system with real balls to make it alive. Most systems do not and are restricted which is why for huge classical pieces you can sort out 90% of all speakers in my opinion. For a small string quartet and soft listening maybe go with RGA's general recommendation above everything, regardless of situation and buy an Audio Note speaker.

Cheers

Okay please explain - "yes Maggies tend to open up at higher volume" = umm isn't that exactly what I said Florian - you disagree with me by agreeing with what I said. They open up - they sound better - at higher volumes.

Then you say "other systems do this better" - well I am glad to see that you know this now explain that to Feaner.

The 1.6 is one of my favorite speakers under $2k but if it did not have ANY flaws at all whatsoever then why would you buy a 3.6 or 20.1 or an Apogee Grand? Nope the 1.6 is absolutely the PERFECT speaker - I see so that's the argument - whatever Feaner can afford is the pinnacle of the audio state of the art and has no weaknesses whatsover. No other speaker could be better at low volumes than the 1.6 which is the perfect low volume listening speaker.

If true Florian then why did you sell your Magnepan for Apogee? And more to the point if your apogee is better than Magnepan why has Feaner not traded his Magnepan in for say a used Duetta Sig II - they sell them here used for $500 - surely it is better than a measly 1.6? Wait Feaner must think a Magnepan is better than used Apogees. Scintilla a few years ago was going for $850 cad back when the dollar was 60cents against the Greenback. Yet people are paying more than double for a Magnepan

Although having heard three Apogee models - going out of business was not much of surprise to those of us with decent ears. Although they are back - hopefully the new stuff uses a better ribbon and are remotely listenable this time around.

[Ajani]

Although having heard three Apogee models - going out of business was not much of surprise to those of us with decent ears. Although they are back - hopefully the new stuff uses a better ribbon and are remotely listenable this time around.

Those are fighting words! Now where's my Popcorn? This is gonna be good...

[audio amateur]

Not if Florian does not reply, which I doubt he will

[blackraven]

Dev, check on the price of the Magnepan MG12's. They sell for $1,100 US. They are very good speaker and would put them on par with the B&W 683. I would rate them higher but you may find that you need a subwoofer with them for deep bass.

Other speakers to consider would be Monitor Audio RS6's and RS8's,
Vienna Acoustics and Triangle

[Feanor]

Okay please explain - "yes Maggies tend to open up at higher volume" = umm isn't that exactly what I said Florian - you disagree with me by agreeing with what I said. They open up - they sound better - at higher volumes. ....
Uhmm ... to say that Maggies sound better (open up or whatever) at high volumes is not the same thing as saying that they sound bad at low volumes -- the latter being what you said.


...
The 1.6 is one of my favorite speakers under $2k but if it did not have ANY flaws at all whatsoever then why would you buy a 3.6 or 20.1 or an Apogee Grand? Nope the 1.6 is absolutely the PERFECT speaker - I see so that's the argument - whatever Feaner can afford is the pinnacle of the audio state of the art and has no weaknesses whatsover. No other speaker could be better at low volumes than the 1.6 which is the perfect low volume listening speaker.
....
At no point did I say that MG 1.6QR's are "perfect" -- please don't attack me or Florian on that basis: it is a straw man arguement. What I proposed was that for accoustic music they are the best (well-know & available), speaker under US$2000 (price new). You find a heck of a lot more people who agree with that than agree that than will argue for Audio Notes in that price range, (or I dare say any price range).

As for Apogees, if I could find used pair <$1500 for audition, I certainly would. Same for Quads. Come to that, I'd audition Audio Notes too.

[Ajani]

Not if Florian does not reply, which I doubt he will

Oh that's lame... Guess I'll have to take a peek inside one of Pix's 'Plasma is Dead' threads to get my fill of AR battles....

[RGA]

Feaner

A democracy might be great in politics but a democracy doesn't make the view correct. 9 people can believe in God and 1 person can be an Atheist - and the Atheist may in fact be right. The fact that 9 people are delusional and brainwashed as children does not make them correct because they have 8 friends to gang up on the one. FAR FAR more audiophiles buy a boxed speaker over any panel loudspeaker - not even remotely close.

Soundhouds would be your heaven - you can listen to Martin Logan, Magnepan, Quad, (another panel maker I forget the name of) used Acoustat and Apogee from time to time. It amazes me that every person who works there owns umm not a panel. I have to agree with John Marks of Stereophile in a way(he's no fan of panels). Art Dudley who loves Quad the best (gee even he made the switch and I doubt there is a bigger panel fan around). Constantine Soo long time Apogee owner and could have any speaker used and a big space too - well...he switched from the panel too to a "shudder" boxed speaker - the same one Art Dudley switched to.

It's not how many own it it's who owns it based off what experience.

Most people buy Bose - more people buy Bose than Magnepan and all panel/planar makers combined past or present - does that mean Bose is "better" because more people like it.

Of course not RGA - the reason the Bose people love their Bose is probably because they have not heard Magnepan or ML or Quad. Get it? Most people who have heard Bose but not most of them have heard Magnepan - if they had then a lot of them would choose Magnepan (and so they should). The far smaller far less sold product is actually the better product. And so it goes.

[blackraven]

I agree with you Feanor, many people think that Magnepans don't sound good at low levels. The reality is that they sound pretty good at low levels but they come alive at louder levels. And by louder levels, I mean levels that you don't need to strain to talk over.

And for acoutic and classical music, I have not heard a speaker that compares under $2K, but there are so many speakers out there that I have not heard. I have heard speakers under $2K that sound better for rock an roll however. I really like Thiels and they would be my second choice in a speaker after Maggies but they cost more for the series 2 speakers than the 1.6's

[Feanor]

I agree with you Feanor, many people think that Magnepans don't sound good at low levels. The reality is that they sound pretty good at low levels but they come alive at louder levels. And by louder levels, I mean levels that you don't need to strain to talk over.

And for acoutic and classical music, I have not heard a speaker that compares under $2K, but there are so many speakers out there that I have not heard. I have heard speakers under $2K that sound better for rock an roll however. I really like Thiels and they would be my second choice in a speaker after Maggies but they cost more for the series 2 speakers than the 1.6's

Me neither, but RGA claims to have them all, (or near enough all not to matter). (I wonder how the Soundhound guys really feel about him?)

I listen to my 1.6s in small-medium sized room at average (not peak) volumes around 70 dB when I actively listen -- that's a level at which you don't have to strain to talk but certainly above background levels. At that level, the 1.6s don't sound "bad".

[RGA]

Feaner this is a relative issue. I would take the Maggie 1.6 over most boxed speakers under $2k for simple acoustic music and so i can't disagree with you or Blackraven on that point. If you want to say they're the best $2k speaker for that - that's fine by me - I have not heard everything either but at this point in time I would not disagree with either of you.

When it steps out beyond simple acoustic music then that changes quite drastically. And that is where several aspects come in for me with Magnepan - they dictate the music I can play, they dictate the amplifier I need, the volume level (though all speakers have this to some degree of course). These are "real" concerns and blackraven even noted this with Rock.

While you may "only" listen to Classical music not everyone else does. A speaker that can't handle the power of synthesizer or electric bass guitar etc is likely "also" insufficient at dealing with piano at a credible live piano presentation. For me the Magnepan's treble is a hindrance, position issues, power requirements, lack of resolution at low levels, serious compression when pushed and lack of visceral drive are notches in the weakness pile.

For some reason that comes across as "mean" to the speaker but it's my truthful evaluation of the product. And it "STILL" ranks as one of my personal favorites in the $2k and under pile - certainly in the top 4-5 which should tell you how highly I regard it for classical replay under $2k.

But the B&W 604S3 is around the same price and it has a pretty sizable advantage in every area the Magnepan 1.6 is deficient in. But it's going to lose with classical replay and that "holographic" sensation, added "unintentional" colouration, and its treble is hardly world class either. But for people who listen to amplified material (which is far more than people who listen to classical) then it's pretty obvious that it's a better choice "if" that is your musical taste. And no subs don't help because the issue with the 1.6 or other Magnepans is not bass depth - the 1.6 is actually pretty respectable in terms of depth - just not drive but that covers the entire frequency band. In classical - most of the time - the dynamic or "kind of bass" is simply considerably different.

Incidentally the AX Two suffers in part the same issues that the 1.6 suffers IMO as it is clearly more at home with acoustic instruments and less satisfying with harder amplified stuff that say a B&W 602S3 is not. In other words the 602S3 is a similar priced speaker and will play louder with more drive than the AX Two while the latter is better for Diana Krall or Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata than it will be at reproducing Aerosmith's greatest Hits.

Comparing the 4 of them then (Maggie 1.6 $2kCad / B&W 602S3/604S3 ($850/$2k) AX Two ($700Cad)
The AX Two doesn't have the holographic soundstage that the 1.6 possesses nor can it be used in a bigger room like the 1.6(not even close) nor does it have the bass depth of either the 1.6 or the 602S3 - nor does it have the quality of build construction - but it is a better performer at low volume (lot better) and it is the least expensive of the three and the bass while less of it sounds tonally more natural.

Trade-offs. The AX Two is about 80% of what the 1.6 does well and about 80% of what the 602S3 does best. But to me it's better balanced as an all rounder, easier to drive, better at low volumes, and is least expensive(but needs a small room - crossed off the list if the room is medium as it is a "nearfield" speaker).

Still If I listened to just classical I would choose the 1.6. If I only watched movies and like to play louder with a lot of rock I'd take the 602S3(/604S3) against the AX Two and 1.6 (given the prices).

None of them are even remotely the last word in the audio world but generally low volume superiority is handled better by higher efficient speakers and I'm surprised that even homer Maggie owners could really make this case with a straight face. That is unless you have not heard better at low volumes - and there are better for considerably less money at doing that task.

As for the Soundhounds guys - will you can make all the inuendos you wish but a lot of people have went to Soundhounds over the years based on my recommendations. They have maybe 8 guys working there including the owner. The thing is when you sell a lot of different brands you don't need to hard peddle any one brand. Remember they do SELL Magnepan which means at least "some" of their shoppers are buying them(and Sonus Faber or B&W) over Audio Note. Granted the last few posts were not as even handed because I put my opinion over too leaden much of the time.

The last time I was there a fellow who liked the AN E over the his panels said - "they remind me of my quads in the openness and speed department but they have real bass and hit harder and sound real" - But it seems to fall on deaf ears and some strange close minded view that "no box can better any panel" even when so many long time panel owners who hold that exact same view make the switch - and the switch is a one way direction. So naturally they're all incompetent's? I don't get the close minded view on this matter when the guys who hear it switch and the guys who don't are happy to blast away. You can lead a horse to water.......

[Feanor]

Feaner this is a relative issue. I would take the Maggie 1.6 over most boxed speakers under $2k for simple acoustic music and so i can't disagree with you or Blackraven on that point. If you want to say they're the best $2k speaker for that - that's fine by me - I have not heard everything either but at this point in time I would not disagree with either of you.

When it steps out beyond simple acoustic music then that changes quite drastically. And that is where several aspects come in for me with Magnepan - they dictate the music I can play, they dictate the amplifier I need, the volume level (though all speakers have this to some degree of course). These are "real" concerns and blackraven even noted this with Rock.

...

Well come to that, I quite willing to conceed that Magneplanars (and maybe other planars) aren't the ticket for rock music and the like. But the topic of this thread was speakers for classical music, so I have no hesitation about the MG 1.6QR. When the topic is what speakers for rock or the like, I have the good grace to keep my blab shut, period, much less talk about Maggies.

On the subject of Audio Note, I'd love to hear them. Fly me to Soundhounds and we'll listen to them all day up against Maggies and whatever else. Who knows? I might be a convert. Too bad I can't mail order a low cost model for US$550 with the option to return for refund -- that's how I got to hear Magneplanar MMGs and that's what sold me on Maggies. The MMG has distinct limitations but having heard them and the many, many reviews and recommendations for the MG 1.6, I had no hesitation about ordering them unheard and take a 6 hour run trip to Toronto to pick them up. If I were discontent with the MG 1.6, I might make the trip to just T.O. to hear ANs, but I'm totally content with the former.

[mlsstl]

At least part of the stress in this conversation seems to come from the common inability to imagine that anyone else's taste might differ from ours.

The reality is that we all put the sonic cues we listen for in a different order. "Punch" trumps a 3-D image for some and for others it is the opposite. Now take that one example and multiply it by dozens or even hundreds of variables and it is no surprise that people come to different conclusions when listening to the same speaker.

The subject is not much different than cars, comedians, art, movies or girls, ad infinitum. How does the debate conclude when you have one fellow who fancies brunettes arguing with another fellow who fancies blondes? They can get into a fistfight, or - imagine this - they could each walk away with their respective dates and everyone could enjoy themselves.

[blackraven]

Yep, we all have different tastes, that's why I try not to trash other people's opinions of audio equipment. I can only comment on what I have heard and give my opinions on what I like and dislike.

[RGA]

MLSSTL

I have absolutely no problem with whether you prefer blondes to brunettes etc so long as before you make the comment you've actually SEEN a brunette first. I don't mind if you prefer Ace Venture to Schindler's List or Citizen Kane if you've actually watched all three of them.

What I have found is that a lot of people in my area reviewers who have listened to both agree with me - including owners of the other speaker. I have also met Maggie owners at Soundhounds who have been there several times and ONLY listen to their Maggies - I asked them if they heard the AN E and said no - "it's a box." Either the afraid to compare or they just want to remain in their little bubble.

Feaner

Yes but you missed part two of the equation - low volume - I would listen to the AX Two or with some positioning logistics the AZ Two with classical music at low volume over the Maggie 1.6. If the room was small the AX Two for sure. And pocket over a grand to buy a better amplifier or source.

The MMG return plan is a wonderful marketing scheme. They send you a $550 speaker and if you don't like it you return it - (if you do you must pay the shipping unless you upgrade). Now they know that anyone(read 99%) shopping for a $500 speaker don't have much money and more to the point don't have a very good stereo at home - likely some kind of HTiB set-up from wal-mart or a Bose Wave radio. They know that the MMG will clobber those set-ups - they also know that most people are lazy and won't want to go through the hassle of returning them. They also know that for those people who like them - really won;t like them enough and will if they do send them back pay more for a bigger model. And once again the person who has heard plenty of $200 Sony speakers at Future Shop in the wall-o-speakers probably have not heard very many if any good $2000 speakers. There is no "listening comparison" in room with such a scheme and without direct comparison - something is always better than nothing.

The return policy is in fact doable with most companies - the difference is Magnepan advertises it. Audio Note in England will come to your house, set-up the stereo for you and let you listen to it for weeks and months for you to decide. For Free and no shipping.

Audio Note dealers will ship you demonstration models for evaluation - if you like it then you place an order for a new one and wait in line. You'll pay the shipping - but like MMG if you buy the shipping will be covered in all likely-hood.

B&W offered a 6 month upgrade plan whereby you could upgrade to the higher speaker within 6 months with 100% return on what you paid. They may still do this.

Unfortunately there are no AN dealers in Toronto that could show you anything. AN Kits is in Ottawa and a big dealer in Manhatten is carrying them. Manhattan is a 10 hour drive from T.O I'm told. Bob Neil who also had Magnepans and Quads would be able to demo for you - he's in Amherst, Massachusetts. Bob Carries a fuller line and I know what he carries - the dealer in Manhattan I know nothing about.

[blackraven]

RGA, Magnepan also offers a 6 month upgrade plan with the MMG's.

You are obviously very biased to AN. Basically your saying that because some people you talked to prefer AN over Magnepan that they are better speakers. What about the people that you didnt talk too who preferred Magnepans?

Audio Perfection here in Minneapolis sells Magnepan, Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio among others http://www.audioperfection.com/gallery/productitems.asp?catID=4&catName=Speakers and they feel Magnepans are the best speaker they sell.

So I guess AN speakers will be much better than Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio by your reasoning. The bottom line is that we all have different likes and dislikes. If we didn't there would be no need for the many different speaker manufacturers.

And as for Magnepan owner's not looking at box speakers- Many owners have gone through box speakers and know that they prefer the Magnepan or the Panel sound which is so different from a conventional speaker. There are many box speakers that I like and feel are excellent speakers, but none give the presentation that Magnepans do. Yes, many box speakers excel at something better than maggies. They may have better dynamic's or bass or treble or resolution, but Magnepans have a unique sound and they are not for every one (just like I believe AN speakers are not for every one). I love the huge sound stage and life like sound they give that many speakers cant reproduce.

[RGA]

RGA, Magnepan also offers a 6 month upgrade plan with the MMG's.

You are obviously very biased to AN. Basically your saying that because some people you talked to prefer AN over Magnepan that they are better speakers. What about the people that you didnt talk too who preferred Magnepans?

Clearly you are correct that there very well may be people who listened to both and preferred the Magnepan - but I can't say because I didn't talk to those people. But what I can say is that everyone who works there and has intimit experience with both brands - well every single one of them has an AN E. 8 out of 8 is not just a fluke - it's a pretty stupendous fluke if it is. And after listening to the Magnepan 20.1 with a mammoth front end for $14K and comparing it to the $7k AN E/LX HE with granted an equally but different mammoth front end there is just not one area not one not even close that the 20.1 wins in and I personally can;t see how any person with even mediocre hearing could possibly find otherwise. The guys who work all day and listen to them both all day - well they have the same opinion.



Audio Perfection here in Minneapolis sells Magnepan, Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio among others http://www.audioperfection.com/gallery/productitems.asp?catID=4&catName=Speakers and they feel Magnepans are the best speaker they sell.

Well I have heard plenty of Sonus Faber and the Wilson Sophia. I can understand choosing a 3.6 over these. First Wilson is grossly overpriced for what you get. At $16k for the Sophia you could get arguably better and similar from Gershman Acoustics (X-1/Sub1) and IMO the latter sounds better for $5k. Sonus Faber is a darker richer sounding speaker - I like them but they sound "boxy" and there's no way a planar panel fan would go for Sonus Faber. Audio Note sounds nothing like either one of them - and that is a reason people are selling their panels for AN E's and not for Wilsons. The AN E is like the transparency you get from your panel but with real bass and drive and a more natural sense of timbre IMO of course. And that's comparing it to the Quad 2905 a vastly better speaker than any Magnepan.



So I guess AN speakers will be much better than Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio by your reasoning. The bottom line is that we all have different likes and dislikes. If we didn't there would be no need for the many different speaker manufacturers.

IMO yes the AN E/LX is better than the Wilson Sophia and the Sonus Faber Cremona - both speakers cost double the AN E/LX and I see no advantage in them. I would take the Quad 2905 over the Wilson Sophia and the Sonus Faber too BTW so I could see your dealer feeling the same. Though Soundshounds has a pretty darn good set-up with the Cremona and despite some boxyness I would still take them over the 20.1 or the B&W D800 which Soundhounds also carries.



And as for Magnepan owner's not looking at box speakers- Many owners have gone through box speakers and know that they prefer the Magnepan or the Panel sound which is so different from a conventional speaker. There are many box speakers that I like and feel are excellent speakers, but none give the presentation that Magnepans do.

Actually we're not too different and that's why I was salivating over ML and Quad years ago - against "conventional boxed speakers" I would take the Quad too - so I understand what it is that panel guys love, why they love them, and why they don't want to go back. But the Audio Note's are hardly conventional and neither is something like the Tannoy Westminster. The cabinet by most boxed speakers are used as a necessary evil that must be quashed out of the equation - Audio Note does the exact opposite of what virtually every other boxes speaker is doing. And gee that may be why an awful lot of panel owners make the switch. DR Cope was a long time Quad Maggie retailer who dropped both and became and AN distributor.

Why do you think I even bother arguing with some of you panel guys - I already know you have good taste and HUGE passion for this stuff. I am saying why not have virtually everything you like about your panels and then "also" have gains in 5 or 6 other areas that really bring it all together.



Yes, many box speakers excel at something better than maggies. They may have better dynamic's or bass or treble or resolution, but Magnepans have a unique sound and they are not for every one (just like I believe AN speakers are not for every one). I love the huge sound stage and life like sound they give that many speakers cant reproduce.

100% agree - you could still listen and still prefer the Magnepan or Quad. The Audio Note's present a different sense of stage and for some that could be a deal breaker. Also the fact that to get the best bass, frequency balance, staging they MUST be placed in corners - if you don't have corners the speakers will be "weakened" and for many corners are just not doable.

As two quick examples of panel guys
But maybe I am less credible because I have never actually owned a panel so
http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/Audio-Note/AN-E-SE/speakers/124418.html

Owner of Apogee
www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-D.html

Art Dudley of Stereophile is a Quad989 owner and he also bought the AN E. You panel guys are the guys I'm talking to. I understand your complaints of boxes - I have them as well and that is why I suggest that "this" box may be the "box" for you. The AN E/Sec Signature is the best speaker I have heard in 20 years of audio. It does what I like about the the better panels and it does what I like the best about horns - wrapped up in one speaker of shockingly small size retaining a lot of the "ideal" point source ideal and "also" tube friendly. No of course they're not perfect - not the least coloured, won't play the absolute loudest, etc etc. But every loudspeaker has something to pick at.

But when the 1812 cannon goes off and the quad or Maggie completely misses the boat I always wonder why they're revered as a great classical speaker - they have no dynamic impact that horns possess - but horns are often honky shouty or just irritatingly bright. Still the have huge scale and visceral impact - why not get the best of both worlds and a choice of front ends from about 5 watts up? That is an exciting product and for me has been for years. I love the 2905 mind you but I have to weigh that they are $14k - the AN E or J is $5k up and ultimately bring more to the table than the 2905 for classical music but also other types of music. They don't look as nice, they're not conversation starters to impress friends.

I am saying keep an open mind until you listen if ever.

[mlsstl]

RGA wrote:
What I have found is that a lot of people in my area reviewers who have listened to both agree with me...
Clearly implicit in this and other statements of yours is that anyone who has a differing opinion is wrong. I think Audio Notes are fine speakers and never said otherwise. I happen to currently own a set of "boxes" myself - Spendors, so I clearly don't suffer a Maggie-only bias. However, you seem to be the one-note samba in this discussion.

[blackraven]

I'm always open to box speakers. I heard the top of the like Salk speakers at Frank Van Alstines house and they sounded better than my 1.6's. But I still prefer the presence and live sound of the Maggies. I could however, easily live with the Salks.

I certainly don't consider myself a Panel only guy.

[RGA]

RGA wrote:
Clearly implicit in this and other statements of yours is that anyone who has a differing opinion is wrong. I think Audio Notes are fine speakers and never said otherwise. I happen to currently own a set of "boxes" myself - Spendors, so I clearly don't suffer a Maggie-only bias. However, you seem to be the one-note samba in this discussion.

Okay Remove the name Audio Note AN E and replace it with Tannoy Westminster or Kensington. The AN's are not the only one's I feel this way about. But the Tannoys are more expensive and requires bigger rooms.

And yes it sounds one note but that was my point - that is why the 1.6 is one of the best $2k speakers and why the Quad is probably in my top 3. I have not found much that beat them in my opinion which is high praise for both Magnepan and Quad. I don't like the 20.1 but I do like the 1.6 and MG12 the two I feel are the best values int he line. For me it would be AN E or J(which is essentially the same speaker for a smaller room), Quad 2905 and Tannoy Westminster.

So yeah of course if I am recommending something I think is better than a Quad 2905 then the list is pretty damn small. There may be some others I am not thinking about currently and some have some promise but have not heard them enough to be sure.

Anyway, the best suggestion I should have made was "try the Magnepan 1.6" at the volume you want and determine if it will satisfy."

I apologize to the moderators and the original poster for getting this off topic and for offending anyone's choices. Good luck in the speaker hunt.

[Florian]

Oh that's lame... Guess I'll have to take a peek inside one of Pix's 'Plasma is Dead' threads to get my fill of AR battles....

No use to argue, RGA is most likely single, spends as we know most of his time in audio shops but doesnt buy anything. Still in school, or just got out of school? Why argue with someone who doesnt have the money to buy the stuff in the first place. Hahaha :devil:

[GMichael]

Sniff sniff .... A good old fashion Flo vs RGA (panels vs AN) Donnybrook? :idea: I haven't seen one of these in years! You guys are so great to do this for us again. Oh the memories.

Move over Ajani. Got anymore of that popcorn?

[Feanor]

...
But when the 1812 cannon goes off and the quad or Maggie completely misses the boat I always wonder why they're revered as a great classical speaker ....

Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical music. It's somewhat unusual in using cannons ... :p

Actually the 1812 is a mediocre piece of music at best -- just my opinion.

[RGA]

"Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical music."

Agreed

I suppose my issue is that a speaker that can do Sarah McLachlan's "Silence" is an important thing for a speaker to be able to do and do it believably - the Quad 2905 and 1.6 for me don't. And it is the macrodynamics where they both simply get easily beaten on. Classical music requires a fuller breadth here as well and if it can't do the synthesizers of Sarah McLachlan then I'm not exactly sure why anyone would think they could do the Saint-Saens or numerous other pieces of music.

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is Musically better reproduced on the AN E than the Magnepan 20.1. Box or no box - one piano sounds more like a piano than a ribbon hiss. But like I said - 99% of people can't audition one - so listen to the Maggie and if it works great. I still like the 1.6 better than 95% of the competition and unfortunately the one's I prefer you are unable to confirm in your area - so we all base our decisions on what is available to us.

Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

[Ajani]

Sniff sniff .... A good old fashion Flo vs RGA (panels vs AN) Donnybrook? :idea: I haven't seen one of these in years! You guys are so great to do this for us again. Oh the memories.

Move over Ajani. Got anymore of that popcorn?

Yep... here you go.... Just don't give Rich any... for some reason every time he dips his hand in the bag, The Popcorn gets extra 'buttery'...

[Ajani]

No use to argue, RGA is most likely single, spends as we know most of his time in audio shops but doesnt buy anything. Still in school, or just got out of school? Why argue with someone who doesnt have the money to buy the stuff in the first place. Hahaha :devil:

&


Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

:12: That's what we've been waiting for!!!! lol

[GMichael]

I think they made up. When's the next show?

[Ajani]

I think they made up.

ALREADY??? :mad5:

[Florian]

"Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical
Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

Doesnt suprise me at all that your single. I have a girlfriend since over a year, but the way you are it is really no suprise that your single. No girl wants a poor schoolboy who only talks about audio in a forum anyways. :thumbsup:

[bobsticks]

I think they made up. When's the next show?


Yeah, not so much....

[RGA]

Doesnt suprise me at all that your single. I have a girlfriend since over a year, but the way you are it is really no suprise that your single. No girl wants a poor schoolboy who only talks about audio in a forum anyways. :thumbsup:

I find it rather disturbing that you qualify people's worth by monetary means and whether they "currently" are in a relationship. BTW I finished university several years ago. I am a fully qualified teacher (and teaching) as well as an audio reviewer.

Ooops!! I forgot who I was talking to. And I so promised myself not to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[Feanor]

...
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is Musically better reproduced on the AN E than the Magnepan 20.1. Box or no box - one piano sounds more like a piano than a ribbon hiss. But like I said - 99% of people can't audition one - so listen to the Maggie and if it works great. I still like the 1.6 better than 95% of the competition and unfortunately the one's I prefer you are unable to confirm in your area - so we all base our decisions on what is available to us.
...

This moring I listened to a couple of versions of the 'Moonlight' sonata, (No. 14, Op. 27), by Alfred Brendel and Mikhail Pletnev. I was reminded (yet again) that that the piano is a percussion instrument. I wasn't at all dissatisfied with the sound from my system (including the MG 1.6). However a person like yourself who values PRaT above all might prefer a speaker that delivers more of the "snap" and "punch" than Magneplanar, and I don't doubt that includes AN.

But that underscores the importance of the type of music you listen to and personal preference. I listen to chamber music most of all, but also to large-scale choral and orchestral works; I value transparency, imaging, and soundstage above PRaT. Nothing puts that string quartet in the room with you like Magneplanar.

[audio amateur]

I find it rather disturbing that you qualify people's worth by monetary means and whether they "currently" are in a relationship. BTW I finished university several years ago. I am a fully qualified teacher (and teaching) as well as an audio reviewer.

Ooops!! I forgot who I was talking to. And I so promised myself not to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
haha I was thinking of that too..
Don't take it too personally either, Florian surely was in that situation not so long ago:smilewinkgrin:
However, the situation definitely applies to me:17:

[sallysue]

A lot of good suggestions here. Can I put in a vote for Focal?

Chorus 816VB = JM Lab

The voicing on some of the towers is very nice. The looks may or may not be to your liking but they are nice speakers and in your price range.

[RGA]

However a person like yourself who values PRaT above all might prefer a speaker that delivers more of the "snap" and "punch" than Magneplanar, and I don't doubt that includes AN.

But that underscores the importance of the type of music you listen to and personal preference. I listen to chamber music most of all, but also to large-scale choral and orchestral works; I value transparency, imaging, and soundstage above PRaT. Nothing puts that string quartet in the room with you like Magneplanar.

First I don't want to get lumped into "believing" one silly audiophile term over another. Music is not about soundstage nor is it about imaging, or for that matter transparency or PRaT. These are terms people like and reuse and they've become hoared words because they get thrown around for EVERY single piece of audio equipment on the market today.

As a reviewer I understand why people like the words and writing it is often hard not to use them. The careful reader however may be able to pick up on what good audio writers are actually talking about.

Take Paul Messenger's reviewer of the AN E - this is a speaker that a panel of listeners chose in blind auditions as best in its class several years ago and they ended up buying the speaker as a reference for their magazine. But WITHIN the same review Paul called the speaker transparent, coloured, true to the recording, but not the best soundstaging and yet differentiated the staging better??? You as a reader could pull anything you wanted from the review - and Paul maybe the best reviewer at that magazine.

It's not his fault but many speakers throw a BIG soundstage whether the recording has a big soundstage or not. The AN E will have a singer left center on a Diana Krall disc and way over to the right on say a Madonna or Kathleen Battle album. The point is most speakers will place the same stamp across all three artists and it may be "nice" and "neat" to have a huge stage but the one that differentiates the best is the speaker doing its job the best. I know of only one dealer who sells Magnepan and Audio Note in the same store - everyone working there prefers the AN E for classical music - it was "designed" for classical music. The designer (L.L. Beranek) himself is a world renowned Opera House designer for heaven sake. It gives NOTHING to any Magnepan or any Panel I have heard so far(this is I STRESS - my OPINION). I'm not telling anyone what to like and especially what to buy. I say go audition one preferably in the same room and I'll let them decide.

My opponents always seem to make personal attacks and get defensive over panels - what may I ask are you all afraid of? Surely if you had nothing to worry about with your belief system then letting people audition is not a worry. Something deep down is bothering your sensibilities or "faith" in panels to be ripping stuff you have not heard.

The reality is discussing a product that no one here as actually bothered to listen to is trying to convince someone that a Blackberry is a wonderful tasting fruit with people who have no blackberries in their area and already have decided that oranges can't be beat.

And what is even worse is that even if you did listen to one and you actually really wanted to buy one you'd be on a 6 month to 2 year wait list(even the dealer's can't get any). They can't keep up with the demand as it is so it's probably better off to go with Magnepan - they're always in stock and there are piles and piles that come up on audio selling sites used at a bargain.

Again I'm not trying to convince people to "buy" anything. I simply have heard both and in my experience and opinion I believe the AN E/LX HE to quite dramatically outperform the Magnepan 20.1 for half the price. It's an opinion people - this is not the end of the world, the sky is not falling just because a bunch of reviewers and salesman prefer a boxed speaker over panels - just as it won't crumble because some people prefer those same panels to those same boxed speakers.

The thread was about good performers of classical at low volume on the cheap - my suggestion is the AX Two or used AN K or AN J or a new Kit E.

[theaudiohobby]

Take Paul Messenger's reviewer of the AN E - this is a speaker that a panel of listeners chose in blind auditions as best in its class several years ago and they ended up buying the speaker as a reference for their magazine.

err.....seems the passage of time has blurred your recollection of facts, HiFiChoice occasionally uses review panels, however the AN E did not go thru this process.

IMO, most audio note speaker models are poor choices for orchestral recordings, both the AN K and AN-J suffer typical small speaker limitations i.e. dynamically constipated in the bass. AN J is too lean for my taste. The AN E is basically an overpriced speaker, so much so that I know of no dealer than carries it in the UK, AN's home country.

Man..there is an awful lot of name dropping going on here, I thought Peter Snell designed the AN E who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden :thumbsup:

[theaudiohobby]

who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden :thumbsup:

Goofed on that one :blush2:

[RGA]

err.....seems the passage of time has blurred your recollection of facts, HiFiChoice occasionally uses review panels, however the AN E did not go thru this process.

IMO, most audio note speaker models are poor choices for orchestral recordings, both the AN K and AN-J suffer typical small speaker limitations i.e. dynamically constipated in the bass. AN J is too lean for my taste. The AN E is basically an overpriced speaker, so much so that I know of no dealer than carries it in the UK, AN's home country.

Man..there is an awful lot of name dropping going on here, I thought Peter Snell designed the AN E who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden :thumbsup:

Yes but you already lied about OWNING the AN K. And it is obvious you've never heard them because only the complete tone deaf could draw a conclusion that the AN J or E were dynamically constipated when what - your speaker of choice is B&W (in your head to head assessment of the AN K J AND E against &W standmounts - what were your assessments?

What gear, where, and when did you audtion the AN E directly against the B&W (and which model where and when).

Even the guys designing the B&W's agree. And you were allowed to meet them in person to confirm that it wasn't BS. But you decided you could not handle that B&W designers thoughts that the AN's were better. You could not handle that B&W asked Audio Note for "help" in making their speakers better.

Hi-Fi Choice has had at least three reviews of AN E speakers and 1 AN J and 1 AN K - 2 AN E and the AN J were blind auditions (not sure of the AN K) and the latest AN E was subjective sighted. Why do another blind audition when it's already been done?

AN has several dealers in the UK and they will come to your house and set it up for you which is better since most of the dealers in England are lousy for showing equiment properly. The advantage in Canada and the US is space so it's not all cramped so you can actually listen to one stereo in one room not speakers with 9 other pairs in the same cramped room. You were given the free in home audition but because of your pre listening biases - you chose not to.

There are dealers in West Sussex, Buckinghamshire, Cornwall, and others not yet listed on their website (they are slow at that).

Arguably the two highest end dealers in the entire United States has them - Audio Federation - who could carry anything on the planet chose Audio Note and also became their distributor. No they are not hoared out to any putz who opens a shop merely to sell boxes. AN made that mistake and pulled out of such places.

And no Peter Snell did not design the speaker cabinets - and if you knew anything about audio engineering like you claim to - you would know who Leo Beranek is since he sighted by virtually every single textbook on acoustics and loudspeaker design for the last 70 years.

To Others - let's just put it to bed - if you have not heard it - go listen and if you can't ignore AN because if you can't audition then all of it is blabber and meaningless anyway - never buy any audio piece without a good audition.

All those on the West coast - by all means don't believe me - go to Soundhounds on Pandora avenue in Victoria - BC - it is a great holiday destination often sighted as one of the three best vacation spots in the world - so don't just come for the audio audtion - you can go fishing whale watching camping hiking - get a taste of England without the pollution or congestion or pick pockets and it's a great jump off point to Vancouver, Tofino, and Seattle. You can ski, waterski, and enjoy the mountains and lakes that are some of the best in the world.

Then get a supreme audition - bring your hardest hitting music full scale classical music (wagner if you absolutely must) - Saint Saens organ pieces, Beethoven's 9th - spend the day - Tell them RGA (Richard) sent you and tell them I recommended their great cappucino. Have them let you audtion the B&W D800 - their prize speaker with the Diamond Tweeters, Quad 2905 - Quad's best panel speaker, Magnepan 20.1, Nice Sonus Faber Cremona's, top of the line Sim Audio, Bryston's new CD player, top of the line Linn gear, and yes the AN E/LX HE with those 8-15 watt tube amps. Go across the street and listen to some Grant Fidelity if the AN gear is too expensive.

Don't let the people here, including me, sway you. And don't let the sales guys sway you either - just because all the guys who owned panels or B&W sold them and all of them bought AN's is according to the Audio Hobby because they like constipated dynamics and distortion. By all means test his theory. I will be very happy to read your your results. You will be very pleased to hear some of the bigger hitters together and get a good experience listening to some premier panel loudspeakers against what presuably TAH believes is the best speaker company in B&W, and hey Sonus Faber is no slouch either. Donuts and coffee on me if your in Nanaimo (1.5 hours up island from Victoria).

Glad to talk audio or anything else.

Anyway, this is a long post - I am currently on vacation in Koh Samui, Thailand so my replies will be spotty.

[theaudiohobby]

Yes but you already lied about OWNING the AN K
The joke is now wearing thin I suggest you stop it :mad:

And it is obvious you've never heard them because only the complete tone deaf could draw a conclusion that the AN J or E were dynamically constipated when what - your speaker of choice is B&W (in your head to head assessment of the AN K J AND E against &W standmounts - what were your assessments?
uo...oh, so any opinion is cool as it long as it does not portray your beloved Audio Notes in poor light.

And no Peter Snell did not design the speaker cabinets
Snell Acoustics hired Kevin Voecks after Peter Snell's untimely death to design amongst other things speaker cabinets (turnkey designer) :smilewinkgrin:, why?

and if you knew anything about audio engineering like you claim to - you would know who Leo Beranek is since he sighted by virtually every single textbook on acoustics and loudspeaker design for the last 70 years.
urrrh....appeal to authority, anyone?

There are dealers in West Sussex, Buckinghamshire, Cornwall, and others not yet listed on their website (they are slow at that).
I suggest you re-read my comments, and by the way your comments wrt UK dealers is incorrect and unprofessional.

To quote you "this is I STRESS - my OPINION", So why are you all cut up and calling me a liar because I expressed my opinion? I listen to much more classical especially orchestral music than you do so I have an opinion of which speakers work well and which ones don't. And for a variety of reasons Audio Note K and J don't work well IMO. And for what it is, the Audio Note E is way overpriced, Tellingly, the only person I know that likes Audio Note speakers rarely listens to classical music, I wonder why.

For classical music, Kef and Tannoy offer a couple of modestly priced speakers that work better e.g. the kef iq5 is much better balanced speaker. And it would not have you rushing for the exit on those occasions where the classical recording is less than stellar, the iq70 should work even better but I have not listened to them..

[RGA]

You lied about the AN K - you claimed to own it on another forum - in your possession and I asked you for the serial number on the back - you "claimed" you sold it - so you had it one day and not one day later you sold it - and had no receipt of any kind. The model you listed the AN K/B has a certain number of customers - Audio Note knows ALL of them - and you sir were never one of them.

Where did you buy it from whom and when? Your answer "the joke is wearing thin." If you were in my shoes and I gave you that answer - well the truth is obvious.

You lied - you try to weasal your way out of it - it's a nifty trick to the less initiated but you know that any answer you give will have to be a fictitious one because any truthful one can be checked. Anyone here can make a phone call to Soundhounds and get the information of what I bought when I boiught it, how much I paid, and what I auditioned it against (within reason because they have lots of customers) but the hard evidence - the paper trail is there.

The hobby can't not on a single thing he claims to have heard I'll bet - but certainly nothing Audio Note. I mean since he claims there are no dealers, and he doesn't like the sound, then AN gave him no in home audtion - then where oh where sir did you audtion. A friend's house - who is the friend - where did he buy it? At a Las Vegas CES show - provide the press pass number, an air ticket, an e-ticket, a hotel receipt for at least the "time the show was on" - anything even remotely plausible will do.

It's simple question for even a simpleton to get but rather than do that you want to "test" RGA to see if he really means that he will accept other people's views on a non AN speaker.

If you CLAIM to have auditioned the AN E against a B&W - then surely you can back it up by telling everyone where you heard the speakers. I can and always do when people ask me. If you go around slagging something then pony up with the evidence.

I have no problem with opinions by people who don't invent them because they have a very well known axe to grind with Peter or myself.

Snell Acoustics hiring Kevin Voecks eventually ran a high end maker into the ground - Snell went bankrupt and the name has been destroyed. Denon stepped in - so we'll see how it goes. The same thing happened to Wharfedale - they were lucky that Quad's group bought them and people care about quality. Denon - well I'm sure we'll see plenty of Snell home theater in a box.

Criticising a dealer with no space - they're AUDIO dealers - if they have no space they should be criticised.

I wonder why it is assumed because I listen to something OTHER than classical that you and Feaner assume that that means I don't listen to Classical - 20% of my collection is classical and I listen to it probably 40 - 50% of the time.

Peter Qvortrup incidentally has one of the largest and more importantly rarest classical music selections going - most AN owners are classical music collectors. It must be bothersome to you that people who like other forms of music also like them because they are not limited to seeing things in funnel vision - I only like Classical - therefore Classical is the only music that is music - I only like girls with a double D cup so anything less is a man, I only like tea so Coffee is for heathens - I only like CD because it measures better and some textbook told me it is right so it must be. Anothe rwitless opponent that I must suffer. Oh woe is me to be dealing with the mentally inert.

[theaudiohobby]

Mods, where are you? RGA response have gotten out of hand, I cannot seem to find report to mod button. I think it is time call RGA to order.

[Geoffcin]

This reminds me of the old unmoderated days of AR.

RGA please refrain from calling fellow listees liars. Personal attacks are a violation of TOS rules. Another outburst and I will be forced to lock the thread.

[theaudiohobby]

Hi Geoffcin, could you ask RGA to reword his posts accordingly. thanks.

[E-Stat]

You lied about the AN K - you claimed to own it on another forum - in your possession
Why don't you provide a link to that discussion? Perhaps you may have misunderstood his comments.

rw

[RGA]

E-Stat

It's on AA - It's ok Peter Qvortrup is aware of The Audio Hobby and we've been through this before.

Geofcin - Maybe you could clear something up - what is the board policy - it's ok if people tell untruths about their experiences very possibly slandering manufacturers and people's livelyhoods, but it's never ok to call them on it? So are these people allowed to go unmolested on this internet forum?

Geofcin - I understand why you or the board would have a policy like this but there should be a little more thought put into this - namecalling is one thing, asking someone for simple verification is not name calling.

I am actually quite surprised by theaudiohobby because despite the argument here he is someone who purprots that he so much values evidence truth and backing up claims. I am shocked and surprised that such an individual who made these comments would run to the moderators whenever someone asked him to provide minimilist evidence to back up very possibly legally binding slanderous remarks about a manufacturer on an audio forum:

"I have no time to waste, the onus is on Peter Qvotrup to provide some supporting evidence to back up his comments. If he can't, well..." (theaudiohobby May 27, 2004)

"is it wrong to ask for data to back up the claim? This is an objective assertion that can be readily proven with back up data.

So the issue is not whether I liking any speaker per se, it is about providing data to back up an objective rebuttal." (ThaAudioHobby May 28, 2004 AA)

So I find it rather curious that the poster who wrote the above would immediately run to the moderators when I am merely asking the same questions that he asks.

Was I supposed to go to a moderator? No because he has the right to ask for proof of a "claim" and he can then "believe" the person to be telling a falsehood until such time as the evidence is provided.

Geofcin I may be missing something in the logic here and I'll be happy to acknowledge my mistake in my logic on this matter. If I am in error I do oppologise.

Ultimately, if you wish I can accept his ownership of the AN K/B which was $600 new, and was in actual fact a Snell KII with a rebadged AN logo - this model was used in the first prodcution run - an entirely different cabinet, woofer, tweeter manufacturers, wiring, caps and had dacron. Since I've never heard the AN K/B it's possible it sounded the way he says it did. The AN J/L sounds quite strikingly different from the AN J/Spe so I suppose I can give him the benefit of the doubt. But if you ever extend TAH and olive branch he beats you over the head with it which is why I rarely bother anymore.

[Ajani]

Hmmm... this thread has taken an interesting turn.... I thought Flo Vs RGA was going to be the showdown, but clearly it is more RGA vs theaudiohobby (or it would be if one of them hadn't run for the mods)....

RGA - It would be helpful if you could find that quote/link from AA where theaudiohobby claimed to have owned Audio Notes.... it would help establish your claims against him

theaudiohobby - Up to this point, you really haven't denied RGA's claims. You've merely expressed annoyance and then called the mods... If you never claimed to own Audio Notes on the AA forum, then the easiest thing to do is deny it... Leave it to RGA to back up his accusations..

I really don't think we need the mods to block this debate - we just need to tone it down with some facts...

RGA calling someone a liar is 'bad' but only if it's not true (and I don't think anyone can tell from reading this thread whether tah is a liar or if RGA is off his meds).

What RGA seems to be calling for is just something to backup tah's claims that he has experience with Audio Note speakers. Something like this (which really is my opinion and is what happened):

The Magnepan MG12 Speakers are easily the worst $1K+ pair of speakers I've ever heard. I listened to them, with a friend, in early 2007 at Audio Excellence in Richmond Hill Ontario. They were setup in the upstairs listening room and driven by all McIntosh electronics. The speakers were at least 3 feet from the rear wall and a similar distance from the side walls with I'm guessing about 8 feet in between them... and I was about 8 feet from the speakers in the listening chair... I listened to at least 2 of my favorite songs (Billie Jean and Hotel California) and found that the Maggies sounded just plain wrong... they sounded confused and unable to present the music in a satisfying way... The Salesman quickly suggested that I try a pair of Revel Performa M22s on a Musical Fidelity A3.5 amp & CD combo instead (that was at the other end of the same listening room), as he said that I had the 'wrong type of music for the Maggies'... The Revels succeeded in getting my toes tapping and stopped the head scratching I was doing while the Maggies were playing.

I haven't given away any personal info in that story, but I have given enough info that someone could easily do a fact check on whether the dealer exists, sells Maggies, has an upstairs listening room, has/had those combos setup in that room etc.. So just enough info to show that I know what I'm talking about...

So back to the Maggies: they were driven by quality electronics and appeared to be well setup... so I'll take the salesman's word that it was just my choice in music that was the problem... What that tells me is that Maggies are not for me... if they can't sound good with my favorite songs, then I could care less how well they present a single violin or a female vocal...

[theaudiohobby]

You have defamed me RGA. Here are some photos of the Audio Note K/B taken prior to their sale on ebay. One of them with a serial number 529.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/Audio_Note_K_photos132.JPG

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/Audio_Note_K_photos131.JPG


What's your next move? I also note that you decided against posting any links to any previous thread.

[Ajani]

You have defamed me RGA. Here are some photos of the Audio Note K/B taken prior to their sale on ebay. One of them with a serial number 529.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/Audio_Note_K_photos132.JPG

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/Audio_Note_K_photos131.JPG


What's your next move? I also note that you decided against posting any links to any previous thread.

:thumbsup: Good Response....

[RGA]

Ajani - Well it will take me some time to track down the serial number - Audio Note uses 4 digit numbers not 3 digit numbers but 'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this was in fact his loudspeaker and not just a picture from someone else. (The quotes are on Audio Asylum speaker forum - do a search for the audiohobby and Audio Note - there are simply far too many for me to look through again - so any interested party who completely has no life can go back and dig.

I still wonder how if he says there are no dealers in the UK (factually incorrect) that he could have heard the AN J and AN E directly against other speakers? Your example is a good one - where you listened - evidence the dealer carries the items etc. This was not a difficult request but the simple always seems difficult for TAH. Get to the point.

But here I'll end it - I'll "presume" that TAH has listened to every audio product known to man and therefore all Audio Note products in depth correctly set-up and directly against all his favorites. There you go tah - the ultimate auditioner of gear - that is what you want - for your opinion to carry some sort of weight.

Unfortunately for you I suppose, if you thought about it - all advertising is good advertising including these exchanges on internet forums - all you end up doing is helping Audio Note sell more audio products by generating further curiosity about them. And I like them a lot and wanted just that - help the little guy get more attention in a sea of heavey weights - for people to go out and give them an audition - so I thank you for spreading the word. Great reviews by all the print and online publications - and naysayers ranting on internet forums - helps create a buzz.

Enjoy your beloved Elac - ir is it now a Genelec - opps I forgot you went to Quad - wait wait you loved those but now you hate them - so what flavour is it this month B&W - well I dunno that was three weeks ago surely you have moved on. What is the new TAH best loudspeaker you have currently? No you don't have to answer. Whatever you currently own is always the state of the audio art until the next speaker.

Would you hold off for a while though because AN can't keep up with orders and if the backlog increases it will take me longer to get my stuff from them.

So yes - Audio Note is bad - don't go listen - please for heaven sake just buy whatever TAH tells you to buy. You'll be happier for it - you'll certainly go through more Ebay and AGON sales than you ever dreamed of - and really theaudiohobby says it all - it's a hobby - buy sell buy sell buy sell. That is the point of a home audio system!

[audio amateur]

RGA, I reckon you should ask for free stuff from AN. I don't believe there's another man that advertises like this for them!

[Feanor]

RGA, I reckon you should ask for free stuff from AN. I don't believe there's another man that advertises like this for them!

What then would his credibility be? :lol:

[blackraven]

Those speakers certainly look like AN speakers from the rear-

http://dood.ca/2007/04/11/review-audio-note-an-k-spe/

[theaudiohobby]

Ajani - Well it will take me some time to track down the serial number - Audio Note uses 4 digit numbers not 3 digit numbers but 'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this was in fact his loudspeaker and not just a picture from someone else. (The quotes are on Audio Asylum speaker forum

zoom in RGA, it's 529, you've have already overplayed your hand.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=4773&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=241219

[Ajani]

RGA, I reckon you should ask for free stuff from AN. I don't believe there's another man that advertises like this for them!

LOL... that's the prob with being too in love with a brand.... it hurts your credibility in discussions... What I've learned in Audio so far is that it really doesn't matter what I love, when I make recommendations... I love Monitor Audio and really don't like Magnepan, but if someone asked me to make a recommendation for approx $1K speakers, I'd recommend both... simply because I know how many people love the MG12 (even though I was not impressed by it)... same thing goes for brands I like, such as Musical Fidelity, Marantz, Rotel, Mission and B&W... and brands that haven't floated my boat, like Dynaudio, Totem, NAD and Arcam...

I've seen multiple reviews from major audio mags, across the globe, claiming that the Monitor Audio RS6 is the BEST $1K speaker the reviewer has ever heard, and despite the fact that I agree with them, it doesn't mean that I would only recommend the the RS6 in that price bracket... We all have different tastes in music and equipment... so there is no one brand that will appeal to everyone...

[RGA]

Dear TAH -

You once told me - "get overyourself" - after a night's sleep I think you were correct - I need to "get over myself" so I will not ask for any of those things like ISP addresses, links to ebay acocounts to be sure the ebay seller was you, or where you auditioned the AN E, or that when you say there are no dealers in the UK but there are, because in the end "point in fact" you are entitled to you opinion. My Arrogance and Ego on this matter has gotten the better of me, I must admit.

I presume that my opinion is the "right" opinion. And of course it is "right" for me and I simply must allow that it may not be "right" for you. Indeed, looking back at the exchange on AA - with your passionate stance for a "brilliant" sound you held for Elac I now must admit that you and I simply do not hear the same things when we are listening to audio equipment. I heard Elac in South Korea (Yongsan statiion in a mega high end complex second or third floor) over a year after that exchange. Sometimes timing is everything. So it is clear to me that because you liked that speaker so much and my audition was pretty much the ploar opposite that well we hear things completely differently - and it is entirely plausible in fact likely that if the Elac sound is one you held with such high esteem that the AN K would not. I doubt the two would really hold a water with the same individuals.

Geofcin has not responded but I see it now - it really makes no difference whether I believe you or not or in fact that you've heard it or not, or in fact that you heard it and didn't like it.

Theaudiohobby - I'll take you at your word on this matter and operate on good faith with an apology for implying that you did not really audition the Audio Note products you have claimed to audition.

Blackraven
You have posted a link of a guy who bought the AN K - Nelson is a very nice young man and I spent several hours listening to his AN K in his room and in fact can't say I disagreed with what I heard. In his room with his gear the speaker was eaisly the brightest of the lot leaning edgy - still open fast and tight but not particularly dynamic and not bass strong - I would use the word ultra-lean - though there was no irritating ringing or anything - it just didn't have any drive or in room pressure that I got in my room. In my room I had followed what the manufacturer told me to do - thus, I had them in corners in a small with no other speakers in the room, anbgled in so the tweeters fired a meter in front of my head with my head below the tweeters on sand/leadshot filled stands coupled with blu-tac. I was fascinated in fact to hear the AN K in a very large open room with vauleted ceiling placed 5 feet into the room directly beside Gershman Acoustics speakers on stands higher than recommended with 200 watt high damping factor Solid State power amps (oddyssy). I was actually a little impressed at how good they performed considering that this is just about as bad a set-up as one would put the AN K in.

What is interesting is that if the theaudiohobby had heard them, I suspect he would be shocked and dispayed because in his audions he found the exact polar opposite of how he described the the AN K/B which paraphrasing was rolled off in the treble but not bright.

I have tried the AN K/Spe with Bryston, Arcam, Sugden, Audio Note, Audio Refinment, Linn, ASL, Marantz(a receiver), Oddyssy, Sonic Impact, Sim Audio, and Rotel. Have I achieved the result that Nelson got - and have I achieved the one theaudiohobby got? Well I did get the lean sound in other combinations and rooms - I have not got the result the audiohobby got - but then I have not heard the AN K/B. And to be fair having heard the AN E/D and the AN E/Spe with the differences in wiring and cabinet materials - I can certainly gleam a degree of insight into TAH's audition of the K/B and K/Spe The copper wired mdf/chipboard models versus the ply/silver wired variants does show a darker presentation with the former.

Theaudiohobby and fellow forumers
So again I opologise for not "getting over myself" and not accepting the views that run or ran counter to my own. I pride myself in being an incredibly open minded person in the sense that I am liberal to quite a large degree on what people choose to do in their own life. Although I do have a Richard Dawkins athiest zealot streak in me when it comes to religion.

Again I opologise for my comments and inuendos to TAH and for allowing my personal preference for something to be held as gosepl and to assume, quite arrogantly, that everyone must share the same preference as me or it is they that must have been dropped on their head at a yound age. Indeed reading myself here I come across as those guys who come to my door with the pamphlets telling me to believe or go to hell for all eternity (indeed amusingly enough is reminiscent of the "are you on the road to audio hell?" argument) - the exact people I hide behind my couch from when they come knocking so they'll go away.

[theaudiohobby]

You once told me - "get overyourself" - after a night's sleep I think you were correct - I need to "get over myself" so I will not ask for any of those things like ISP addresses, links to ebay acocounts to be sure the ebay seller was you,

There is nothing stopping you from asking, why stop now? By the way, you have chosen a lousy time to get over yourself, to do so after pointedly and repeatedly accusing me of lying smacks of very lousy timing.


or where you auditioned the AN E, or that when you say there are no dealers in the UK but there are, because in the end "point in fact" you are entitled to you opinion

Nice sleight of hand, when did I ever say I had auditioned the AN E, care to point to any post anywhere where I made that claim. Secondly, I never said Audio Note had no dealers in the UK, I said "I do not know any dealers that carry the AN E in the UK" big difference which happens to be the reason I have not listened to the AN E as my closest Audio Note dealer (Noteworthy Audio) did not carry it.

[Florian]

Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy..... i didnt even read the responses. But man that thread kept on flying....weeeeeee!

Cool stuff... puts some interest back into this forum.... not much tough

[RGA]

There is nothing stopping you from asking, why stop now? By the way, you have chosen a lousy time to get over yourself, to do so after pointedly and repeatedly accusing me of lying smacks of very lousy timing.

Nice sleight of hand, when did I ever say I had auditioned the AN E, care to point to any post anywhere where I made that claim. Secondly, I never said Audio Note had no dealers in the UK, I said "I do not know any dealers that carry the AN E in the UK" big difference which happens to be the reason I have not listened to the AN E as my closest Audio Note dealer (Noteworthy Audio) did not carry it.

Again I am sorry - you mentioned that the AN E was overpriced and thus because you are pretty diligent about not opining on things you have not heard naturally I assumed you auiditioned it. You mentioned you heard a speaker at a friends and I thought you were talking about the AN E since the AN E was what was being discussed previously and mostly in the thread. Please if you can help me out in the future if people are discussing the AN E it would help that if you make comments on the sound that you make it clearer that it was not the E you hear but you are commenting on the AN K or J and "inferring" from that experience what the E sounds like - certainly you may feel that the AN E is overpriced without auditioning but givent he thread it certainly makes it appear that you auditioned it. Lots of people love the E and don't love the J incidentally and that is why looking back it was not clear to me.

However, I will endevour not to skim read in the future but I am on holiday and trying to spend as little time on this as possible and should have read more carefully and or checked for clarification. If I had simply asked "have you heard the AN E" I would have prevented the whole thing. Again my error.

[GMichael]

I so miss the good ol' days.

[audio amateur]

opining
:lol: Is that actually a word?

[Ajani]

:lol: Is that actually a word?

Yep.. it is...

[theaudiohobby]

You mentioned you heard a speaker at a friends and I thought you were talking about the AN E since the AN E was what was being discussed previously and mostly in the thread. Please if you can help me out in the future if people are discussing the AN E it would help that if you make comments on the sound that you make it clearer that it was not the E you hear but you are commenting on the AN K or J and "inferring" from that experience what the E sounds like - certainly you may feel that the AN E is overpriced without auditioning but givent he thread it certainly makes it appear that you auditioned it.

Do we now have listen to a speaker to make a judgement that it's overpriced? Hello, I just said that my local dealer does not carry the speaker, could it be that he feels that the AN E is not competitive (in the UK) in its price bracket? Furthermore we are on thread when the original poster asked speakers up to 2k. Or do I have to personally listen to every speaker model before recommending it be added to a short list?

[Ajani]

Do we now have listen to a speaker to make a judgement that it's overpriced? Hello, I just said that my local dealer does not carry the speaker, could it be that he feels that the AN E is not competitive (in the UK) in its price bracket? Furthermore we are on thread when the original poster asked speakers up to 2k. Or do I even have personally listen to a speaker to recommend that another add it their short list?

I know this question wasn't directed at me... but to be honest, If I was going to claim that a speaker is overpriced, I think I really should have at least auditioned it 1st or have detailed knowledge of the cost to produce it (including R&D etc)... Otherwise, what am I basing my opinion on? I don't see the reason to bash something I've never heard...

[theaudiohobby]

I know this question wasn't directed at me... but to be honest, If I was going to claim that a speaker is overpriced, I think I really should have at least auditioned it 1st or have detailed knowledge of the cost to produce it (including R&D etc)... Otherwise, what am I basing my opinion on? I don't see the reason to bash something I've never heard...

Did you read my previous comments? Do you suppose I have not done any research? Did you miss the fact I said visited an Audio Note dealer and auditioned the model that the dealer deemed competitive? Do you suppose the current Audio note dealer does not carry E line because they are screaming bargains?

To answer your concern, I have a lot to base my opinion, I wasn't belly gazing when I said it's overpriced and evidently the UK market concurs as the nearest (and the only one I know of) place to audition it is Audio Note's factory in brighton!

fyi....here is a link (http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/loudspeakers2.html) to the dealer to give you some perspective as your defence of RGA is becoming ridiculous.

[Ajani]

your defence of RGA is becoming ridiculous.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

OK... clearly you two have a serious beef and I'll keep out since I don't side with either of you...


Now where did GM put my popcorn?

[GMichael]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

OK... clearly you two have a serious beef and I'll keep out since I don't side with either of you...


Now where did GM put my popcorn?

A little anger management could be in order. At least it's entertaining though.

The popcorn is all gone. How about some beer and nuts?

[theaudiohobby]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

OK... clearly you two have a serious beef and I'll keep out since I don't side with either of you...

Your contribution to the spat has been less than helpful, a few posts ago you made a bad situation worse by implying that RGA actions might be justified and here you are doing the exact same thing. RGA defamed me on a public board which puts him in a very spotty position. RGA never did provide the url to the previous audio note thread he liberally excerpted, why not ask him why?

Like you said, its time for you to grab the popcorn.

[GMichael]

Your contribution to the spat has been less than helpful, a few posts ago you made a bad situation worse by implying that RGA actions might be justified and here you are doing the exact same thing. RGA defamed me on a public board which puts him in a very spotty position. RGA never did provide the url to the previous audio note thread he liberally excerpted, why not ask him why?

Like you said, its time for you to grab the popcorn.

Just one word. Decaf.

[theaudiohobby]

Just one word. Decaf.

Already done that....did not make the defamation less easy to accept.

[Ajani]

A little anger management could be in order. At least it's entertaining though.

Yep... funny how at 1st RGA sounded like he needed the anger management classes... and now that RGA has gotten all apologetic and chilled, TAH is getting in a rage...


The popcorn is all gone. How about some beer and nuts?

Beer yes... but you can keep your nuts.... I have my own...

[GMichael]

Yep... funny how at 1st RGA sounded like he needed the anger management classes... and now that RGA has gotten all apologetic and chilled, TAH is getting in a rage...



Beer yes... but you can keep your nuts.... I have my own...

Mine are salted.:yesnod:

[theaudiohobby]

Yep... funny how at 1st RGA sounded like he needed the anger management classes... and now that RGA has gotten all apologetic and chilled,.

Needless to say your comments were the most unfortunate as you suggest that my comments should not be taken on face value. And you did the same thing twice in the same thread! very good going!

[RGA]

Do we now have listen to a speaker to make a judgement that it's overpriced? Hello, I just said that my local dealer does not carry the speaker, could it be that he feels that the AN E is not competitive (in the UK) in its price bracket? Furthermore we are on thread when the original poster asked speakers up to 2k. Or do I have to personally listen to every speaker model before recommending it be added to a short list?

After living in China and currently vacationing in Thailand I now find "everything overpriced." I did say "certainly you may feel that the AN E is overpriced without auditioning" and you're well within your rights to feel that way. Perhaps your dealer feels the same way or he may have other reasons for not stocking one. Since I have never been there or met the people running the store you'd me more up on them than I. I would no assume they're overpriced because the dealer doesn't have one in stock - my dealer has one in stock - the demonstration model and it takes 6 months to a year to get one if you like it. That includes he dealers - they can't get any either. Maybe Noteworthy is on a wait list - maybe they sold their demonsration model - maybe they don't like Audio Note at all anymore and are just clearing stock.

You don't like the sound - you think they're ovepriced and you feel you have evidence to support both. Fine. I get it. AN bad - Peter is a shuckster - RGA is a mean bad man for liking something you don't like. Good - I am sorry I opologized. Here is my pound of flesh :o

[theaudiohobby]

You don't like the sound - you think they're overpriced and you feel you have evidence to support both. Fine. I get it. AN bad - Peter is a shuckster - RGA is a mean bad man for liking something you don't like.

So much for an apology!


Here is my pound of flesh :o

it's foul! keep it! I look forward to the day when you can find it in yourself to write an unambiguous apology.

[Luvin Da Blues]

........ RGA defamed me on a public board which puts him in a very spotty position.......


Help me out here TAH. I'm not a legal type dude but don't we all post anonymously here so, how can this be defamation? :confused5:

[mlsstl]

It is amazing how many times people can walk right by repeated opportunities to conclude an argument. (The word "conclude" was carefully chosen; it doesn't mean "win" or "resolve".)

Perhaps audiophiles are human after all.... ;-)

[RGA]

Dear theaudiohobby

I have difficulty giving you a solid apology because you so often give the impression you have listened to things and then apparently not heard them. You have said to me that you have never heard the AN E in this thread but on a prior thread here on CAM you said the following:

"In comparison AN-E and the Quad are dynamically constipated.and no one will seriously consider either as credible classical music studio monitor."

"Personally, comparing the Westminster to the Audio Note E is a bit of a joke , they are in a different league entirely."

"The fact of the matter is that nobody in their right mind will monitor a large orchestra recording on either an Audio Note E or a Quad 2905 because of their dynamic and bass limitations."

"Well not in my book…it lean midbass and upper bass is not to my taste. It’s limited LF capability would certainly take a toll on dynamics."

All from just one thread http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=28672&page=2&highlight=Tannoy

Now if you put yourself in my shoes for a moment then you would see why I had assumed you auditioned the AN E. This is an awful lot of commentary on the way you perceive a speaker to sound without actually hearing them. And if you have not auditioned the AN E then judging from that thread is not clear which , if any of the three of those speakers you have heard. The E is roughly three times the box volume of the J - it's fine if you are inferring what the E sounds like based upon your audition of the J, but I think it is fair to actually mention at some point that that's what you are doing or state that "while I have not auditioned the E - according to the measurements provided by XYZ magazine the bass is too limited or the Dynamics is measurably proven not to be a good dynamic loudspeaker and the in room bass response can't cover acoustic instruments such as the piano." Again I have no problem with anyone commenting on speakers they have not directly heard so long as, in fairness to everyone reading, that you don't imply or infer that you have heard something. If this was an oversight on your part - that's also ok - it happens people are in a rush read something or write something to make a point or let the argument supercede what they otherwise would have written with a cooler head.

But since neither of these notes was stated by you when someone talks about the sound of the midbass I assume they've actually heard it. I don't believe you can really fault me for making that assumption.

I have no problem with apologizing for erroneously making the assumption you heard something you didn't or vice versa, but I can't see how you could blame me for concluding with your above statements that you auditioned the AN E. But hey, now I know and I offer the apology and I hope you can at least see why I jumped to the conclusion and why I asked you to try to make it more clear in the future so that it will prevent people like myself from jumping to that conclusion.

[theaudiohobby]

I have difficulty giving you a solid apology because....

That's say its all... it would seem Ajani has given you some steam to start erecting new strawmen. In the same thread you said

"The Red Trace in your graph of Harbeth shows similar measured response in certain areas indicating room induced issues - that said it is a fair assessment in commentary by John Atkinson -

In the end I can't argue with the measurements since they are what they are. I hear it like Art hears it and numerous others hear it ."

But I guess that the passage of time continues to cloud your recollection of previous events, or is it just case of another day, another strawman. While at it, I might as well repeat my comments from the previous thread, the Audio Note E is dynamically challenged in the bass, I do not have drive to a Ford Escort to know that it not as fast as a B&W M3.

[GMichael]

:Yawn:

[Ajani]

:Yawn:

Ditto...

[RGA]

That's say its all... it would seem Ajani has given you some steam to start erecting new strawmen. In the same thread you said

"The Red Trace in your graph of Harbeth shows similar measured response in certain areas indicating room induced issues - that said it is a fair assessment in commentary by John Atkinson -

In the end I can't argue with the measurements since they are what they are. I hear it like Art hears it and numerous others hear it ."

But I guess that the passage of time continues to cloud your recollection of previous events, or is it just case of another day, another strawman. While at it, I might as well repeat my comments from the previous thread, the Audio Note E is dynamically challenged in the bass, I do not have drive to a Ford Escort to know that it not as fast as a B&W M3.

I am not tryin to fight you here theaudiohobby - I merely asked if you could see why some people, well me, would "think" you had auditioned the AN E. I am not blaming you or trying to start an argument or trying to get you to like something you don't like.

You are perfectly free to base your opinion on the measurments, or whatever you like. I am not trying to convert you or continue an argument. You are entitled to your opinion and your conclusions based on whatever tools and methodologies you see fit and you are welcome to share those on a public forum - certainly don't need anyone's permission. I

I was genuinely of the belief that you had auditioned the speaker based on your comments - I am sorry for being "wrong" in the way I read those quotes but people do make mistakes. If you think there was nothing misleading in what you wrote - that is also fine with me. I know for next time to simply ask you directly if you heard them. Again, I misunderstood you.

I am not clear on two points - the measured response - maybe you can explain how the speaker is poor in the bass and dynamics department (in room). I can see the frequency response plot in Stereophile measured mid room 1 meter (anechoic) but I am not sure exactly what you consider to be deep enough bass or volume capability to reproduce piano. I believe the AN J and E are capable of the lowest registers of the Piano - neither for pedal organ but generally those are reserved for large floorstanders or subwoofers.

And in your experience, are you familiar with the B&W M805 which is used in many recording studios - If you could compare the bass and dynamics of the M805 (or N805) versus the AN J or AN E which in your estimation has more bass and more dynamics and if the N805 or M805 why or why not?.

I am a little surprised because several years ago the AN J was part of a standmount shootout in Hi-Fi CHoice. The people there said that because of the J's "prodigous bass" it was unfair to pit it against competing standmounts. So they took the speaker out of the test and put it in with competing floorstanders and the assessment there was "still" that it had "prodigious bass" and the Hi-fi Choice room didn't have any corners so it was a free standing session - thus no corner reinforcement gain or senstivity gain - not everyone liked the sound (free standing to my ear makes the box more noticeable to me as well) but many of them found it to be the best of the lot and all noted bass and dynamics as a strength.

Again not going to try and convince you and not trying to start and argument, but it genuinely creates a curiosity in me that you would find it so different than what I hear - again not saying you're wrong at all or that I am right but perhaps you could give me some sort of clue to what it was you compared the AN J to. Of course it's not going to compare in the bass and dynamics to the likes of the Westminster. Perhaps we are merely at odds because I think you're comparing it to a 303 while in fact you're comparing it to the Model Nautilus. We may in fact be disareeing over not very much if anything merely due to a miscommunication.

[theaudiohobby]

Well, to the best of my knowledge M805 and it later iterations are not used in any recording studio as they offer no advantage over its more rugged professional cousins. What's the point of a small passive speaker in expensive drag clothing in a recording studio?

And to your question, I would expect an AN E(though I have not heard it) to have more bass and dynamics than an M805 (or later variants) as its much bigger and has much larger cone area. The measurementd confirm that, same the J to a lesser extent. The N805 (and its variants) is a small speaker with a small woofer and relatively high sensitivity @88dB and measurements show a falling response from 120Hz downwards and when I listened to an older N805 iteration, it was no bass excavator to my ears.

Do I think that the AN E and AN J are capable of producing the lowest registers of a Piano? Well, I believe the AN E would do it in the right room (the upper bass it still likely to sound tad lean though). I am not too sure the AN J can manage it as it would have a much higher -6dB point.

[RGA]

Fair enough - thanks for the response.

May I ask a question? What is that you are looking for in Audio Reproduction. Perhaps you ar like me when it comes to religion - I am a big Richard Dawkins fan and it is frustrating for me in a sense because on Audio I am almost in the "other camp." If you have read Dawkins you know why I might be "stuck" in a kind of dichotomy. In a very real way Audio Note is the audio's world of religious mumbo jumbo. Yet I put down the measurements and just listen when it comes to audio.

I recently read Stereophiles Wes Phillips' take on the Audio Note room at CES: (I am not posting the following trying to convince you - I'll explain below)

"JA caught up with me at the Blue Light Audio room and suggested we saunter down to hear the 25Wpc Audio Note Ongaku integrated amplifier ($95,000) featured in his photograph above. Yes that's a jaw-dropping price, even after four days of CES. The Ongaku has five line level inputs. It employs two NOS VT4-C (211) tubes, an original NOS Telefunken 6463, and two NOS 5R4WGB rectifiers. Audio Note builds it own silver-wired driver transformer on a double AN-Perma nickel C-core. AN tantalum resistors, Black Gate electrolytics, and another silver wired transformer (output this time) complete the innards.

The system's source was the Audio Note CDT-Three transport ($9550) and DAC 4.1x Balanced DAC ($15,500). The speakers were Audio Note's AN-E SEC loudspeakers ($51,000/pair), which have a claimed sensitivity of 95dB. Cables were Audio Note Pallas digital cable ($4275), Sooto interconnect ($7050/m), and SogoN96 speaker cables ($9635). The power cable was the only non-Audio Note product: a Nordost Odin power cable.

I have to confess the system's price tag worried me—those are numbers that make even a high-end reviewer's head spin. And no, I didn't automatically assume I would like it because it was expensive. Those prices are scary. Here's the thnig, though: They system didn't sound expensive, it sounded right. No single element predominated, unless you count the complete sense of ease and the fabulous dynamic range.

I listened to one of Todd Garfinkle's M•A recordings, Sheila Jordon and Harve Swartz's "You Don't Know What Love Is." Wow. It was just an exceptional singer and an acoustic bassist in a reverberant hall, but the AN system gave me all of that—the room, the bass, and the woman, most of all the woman. Even at her current age, Jordan is a powerful singer and she almost pegged Todd's mikes on this one. My intellect tells me that there's no way a 25Wpc amplifier can control that, even on 95dB speakers, but the Audio Notes handled those passages better than any other system I'd heard at CES.

Next came Nina Simone's "Little Girl Blue" and I was practically in tears. Everything just sounded so right. I had goosebumps—and despite all evidence to the contrary, I'd have sworn my hair was standing on end,

Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for.

After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that. http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/


For an otherwise scientifically minded guy it irritates me that I like this kind of system more than a Bryston/B&W combination. Rather that try to convince you - what I am trying to figure out is how Audio Note is convincing me. And has for several years on the sound. I rahter likd John Atkinson't attempt that my ear is latching on to a given frequencies and our ears are basing it off that and the ear can forgive other weakness - while other listeners do not.

Clearly there are better speakers in a measurable sense - with more bass, volume capability and full range ability - 100% agree. In the end maybe Peter and crew have just found a concoction of pushing emotional buttons somehow. There is some sort of emotional equotient factor or something at play here.

In a sense that is what most of the more scientific posters (DBTers) might argue that this speaker combined with the often deemed "euphonic" SET sound and the often deemed "euphonic" AN cd players and hey turntables in general then perhaps it is this "euphony" that Wes and Art and I like that JA likes but doesn't "love" and that you like a lot less.

I can actually live with liking a "euphonic" if not wholly accurate system. To my ear it sounds "right" and I can't get off that point sometimes because if it is innacurate and it sound "right" then it is awfully darn confusing for readers.

I am happy that I enjoy the end result and I am happy that I enjoy listening to music on their speakers. I hope others will give them a try and if you don't lik them - I will very much, from this point forward, get over myself, and not put my view ahead of anyone elses. Two people can latch onto a sound and hear very different things. Some can hear noted of Mozart and run screaming from the room while the other is brought to tears of bliss. The guy who ran from Mozart may love Tupac's greatest Rap hits, whole the classical guy would balk at the word rap and greatest in the same sentence.

I do thank you for your response TAH and I think it is important to have people who hear it differently than me to remind me that not everyone will hear it the way I am hearing it. I suppose it's an "emotional kind of sound" and to achieve that it has to play on mood and certain people's hearing sympathies (ie if you are bothered more by a 1db rise at 1khz or a 10db dip 10khz kinda thing). If you design to ear then you will only please people who hear it like you. Some will hear it like Peter and some obviously do not.

[frenchmon]

Yep, we all have different tastes, that's why I try not to trash other people's opinions of audio equipment. I can only comment on what I have heard and give my opinions on what I like and dislike.

A very wise man indeed!

frenchmon