Budget system for classical music

[barbutti]

Hi,

I'm new to the forums, and in actuality, new to the audio world. If my question is silly, please bear with me.

I'm a classical music enthusiast and I'm looking to replace my current standard sound system with one that is actually good and that will allow me to enjoy recordings as close to a live performance as possible.

I'm on a budget so I'm looking for a balance between good price and great sound quality.

My initial thought is getting a Home Theater receiver from Onkyo or Denon, together with a couple of speakers from Polk Audio's TSI or RSI bookshelf line.

Do you think this is a bad idea?

I'm very curious to know what you guys think and thanks for advance for the help.

[JohnMichael]

Welcome to AudioReview. My initial thought is what do you already have if anything that might be used in a future system. Do You have a budget. I am a classical fan and I listen in two channel. My thoughts being if you have a limited budget of say $1,000 you could buy a nice integrated amp, speakers and cd player. If you go multichannel for the same budget you will need more speakers that may not be as good as for a two channel system. The more you can tell us the better we can advise.

[02audionoob]

I would definitely agree with the idea of a quality budget 2-channel integrated amp over a Home Theater receiver, any day of the week. Good example:

http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C315BEE.asp

[RGA]

Budget can me so many things - some people think $500 is a low budget and others think anything less than $15,000 is a glorified telephone.

Classical music is in some respects the most demanding of a system and why a lot of folks spend tremendous amounts on audio equipment. Depending on the kind of classical - ensemble or full orchestra will be a determining factor as to where you can skimp.

Factors -

How much do you have to spend?
How many components do you require? (speakers, amp, source (CD or Vinyl or both)
Does it need to do home theater too?
How big is the room?
Does your room have corners or not?
Carpeting or hard wood floors?
Do you want the system to "also" be good at Rock and Roll/Dance/Pop for parties etc?

Do you like a system that places vocals a little more front and center or do you like a flatter presentation?

Do you prefer a system that makes instruments sound truthful or do you care more about hearing where the instruments are.

Lastly, if your budget is under $1k for a whole system and you have not a great room then would you consider headphones? You could get a very high end headphone system that would be great for classical that would beat most stereos 5-10 times their price. Something like the Sennheiser HD 580 or HD 600 or AKG 701 or Grado RS1 are ones that come to mind off the bat.

[Mr Peabody]

If it's for Classical music why a surround receiver? Do you plan to listen to multichannel SACD? If not, and no interest in using the system for movies, then stick with 2 channel. You said you wanted better than normal, as much as I like Onkyo for home theater, it's still entry level for music, as most any receiver will be.

You mentioned also you were on a budget, what is the budget? Assuming it's in that Polk/Onkyo price range......

Take a listen to some of the small NAD integrated amps. Onkyo makes the 9555 that Sir John owns and seems very happy with. You could also go used and look for a nice integrated by Arcam or Rotel. You can also pick up Adcom separates pretty cheap on the used market. Adcom is very good for the money. The Cambridge Audio integrated amps might be an option as well. Hopefully some of these are in your area for audition. NAD actually has a receiver with built in CD player that would be a good option if you don't already have a good playback source. Most of these brands also have good CD players especially the Arcam.

On a budget I'm not sure what would make a good speaker for Classical. Give a listen to the entry level B&W. I like Paradigm but I haven't heard them with Classical music. Acoustic Energy are good for the money but if you like impact of full orchestra AE aren't the last word in the bass area but quite accurate for the money otherwise. A used pair of Martin Logan would be excellent but even used may be beyond your budget.

[Feanor]

barbutti,

I echo the the though of others here that 2 channel is the way to go if you're on a budget and aren't overly concerned with home theatre. Let's face it: almost all music today is distributed in 2 channel form. It simply isn't worth it in dollar to provide yourself with 3 or 4 extra channels to listen to it.

It's true that classical mulit-channel SACDs can sound great, but such recordings are such a small portion of the classical music available that they don't justify multi-channel for the person on a budget. For that matter there are a few opera DVDs that provide decent multi-channel sound. However most opera DVDs are from live performances were the recording process was actually a secondary consideration, so this is a really, really minor consideration

So if you stick to stereo you can afford better components. In that regard, "transparency", that is, resolution + "air", are very important. You want to listen to medium or large ensemble and be able hear the various instruments and voices as separate entities -- to have some "air" between them. Our buddy, RGA, speaks condescendingly on this point ...

...
Do you prefer a system that makes instruments sound truthful or do you care more about hearing where the instruments are. ...
... however I must contradict him: truth and transparency are not mutually exclusive and the latter is certainly important in classical music. (Admittedly it might not be a big deal for Trance, RGA.)

[barbutti]

Thanks a lot for the responses, guys.

* I would say my budget goes from US$ 800 to US$ 1500, being flexible in relation to the quality I can get for that price. If the extra money is worth in terms of sound quality, I would be happy to pay more.
* You totally made up my mind about the surround sound system. I don't care about home theater, just mentioned Onkyo because I didn't know any better -- and they're widely available where I live.
* I don't have a CD player right now, but my library is all digital FLAC actually. I was hoping to hook the system in my MacBook -- or maybe with an AirPort Express. Bad idea?
* I guess I would need a receiver and speakers for now then. A good CD player can come later.
* The room is around 90 square feet, and the room is square with hard ceramic floor
* It would be great if the system could perform well at "regular" rock/dance/pop, but it's a plus.


Another problem I have is that I currently live in Brazil so would need to import the system. Do you know any store that ships worldwide?

[bobsticks]

If you want to do the legwork here's a link with some South American dealers:

http://audiotools.com/distam.html

You could probably squeeze out some lower model stuff by Rega, Snell or Totem. The list, however, is leaning toward the high-end side and there may be a way to get more bang-for-your-buck as the internet has made the world much smaller.

Accessories4Less is a site that many of us around here have used and can vouch for... http://www.accessories4less.com/

If it was me and my dollars I'd get on the phone right now and see if I could swing a package with these two little items:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARPM7001/Marantz/PM7001-intergrated-amplifier-70w-x-2ch-LAST-ONE-/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ7DA/KEF/iQ7-3-Way-6.5-Tower-Speaker-DARK-APPLE-Pair/1.html

You'd still have money left over to look at a DAC for those FLAC files and you're all ready to go.

[Feanor]

Thanks a lot for the responses, guys.

* I would say my budget goes from US$ 800 to US$ 1500, being flexible in relation to the quality I can get for that price. If the extra money is worth in terms of sound quality, I would be happy to pay more.
* You totally made up my mind about the surround sound system. I don't care about home theater, just mentioned Onkyo because I didn't know any better -- and they're widely available where I live.
* I don't have a CD player right now, but my library is all digital FLAC actually. I was hoping to hook the system in my MacBook -- or maybe with an AirPort Express. Bad idea?
* I guess I would need a receiver and speakers for now then. A good CD player can come later.
* The room is around 90 square feet, and the room is square with hard ceramic floor
* It would be great if the system could perform well at "regular" rock/dance/pop, but it's a plus.

Another problem I have is that I currently live in Brazil so would need to import the system. Do you know any store that ships worldwide?

Since your room is very small, there is no real need for an AirPort Express. In fact, there are several options:

Simply use high-quality computer speakers, thus no need for an amplifier.
Just use a 3.5 mm stereo jack -to- left+right RCA adaptor plus RCA cables to connect to an new amplifier and hence your speakers.
Alternatively, find a small, integrated DAC (digital to analog converter) plus amplfier unit that connects to your Mac via USB, or S/PDIF if your Mac is equiped with this sort of digital output connector.
It's also feasible is to use a pair of self-powered, (so called "active"), speakers feed directly from you computer without an amplfier. These would be fed via adaptor and RCA, (as Option 2), or XLR analog cables, or in some speaker models via S/PDIF digital.Are headphones an option for you? In case of options 1-3, use headphones instead of speakers. There are many DAC + headphone amp units that fit the Option 3 scenario.

Option 4 is often overlooked, yet small "studio monitors" that fit this scenario have distinct advantages that usually include the ability to trim the speaker response to room and placement conditions which could be very useful in a small room. An example is these M-Audio BX5a Deluxe (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileBX5aDeluxe.html) monitors. These speakers will play any sort of music and any volume you'd care to listen to in a small room.

[barbutti]

Since your room is very small, there is no real need for an AirPort Express. In fact, there are several options:

Simply use high-quality computer speakers, thus no need for an amplifier.
Just use a 3.5 mm stereo jack -to- left+right RCA adaptor plus RCA cables to connect to an new amplifier and hence your speakers.
Alternatively, find a small, integrated DAC (digital to analog converter) plus amplfier unit that connects to your Mac via USB, or S/PDIF if your Mac is equiped with this sort of digital output connector.
It's also feasible is to use a pair of self-powered, (so called "active"), speakers feed directly from you computer without an amplfier. These would be fed via adaptor and RCA, (as Option 2), or XLR analog cables, or in some speaker models via S/PDIF digital.Are headphones an option for you? In case of options 1-3, use headphones instead of speakers. There are many DAC + headphone amp units that fit the Option 3 scenario.

Option 4 is often overlooked, yet small "studio monitors" that fit this scenario have distinct advantages that usually include the ability to trim the speaker response to room and placement conditions which could be very useful in a small room. An example is these M-Audio BX5a Deluxe (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileBX5aDeluxe.html) monitors. These speakers will play any sort of music and any volume you'd care to listen to in a small room.

I'm going to take a look at those speakers you mentioned.

I'm also starting evaluate the possibility of getting headphones instead -- at least for now, since they would be much cheaper and I would also be able to enjoy good music at the office.

I guess then my best option would be a Sennheiser HD600 or HD650?
Or is there anything better in their price range?

My Mac has analog and optical audio output. What would be the best way to plug the Sennheiser in it?

[Ajani]

Thanks a lot for the responses, guys.

* I would say my budget goes from US$ 800 to US$ 1500, being flexible in relation to the quality I can get for that price. If the extra money is worth in terms of sound quality, I would be happy to pay more.
* You totally made up my mind about the surround sound system. I don't care about home theater, just mentioned Onkyo because I didn't know any better -- and they're widely available where I live.
* I don't have a CD player right now, but my library is all digital FLAC actually. I was hoping to hook the system in my MacBook -- or maybe with an AirPort Express. Bad idea?
* I guess I would need a receiver and speakers for now then. A good CD player can come later.
* The room is around 90 square feet, and the room is square with hard ceramic floor
* It would be great if the system could perform well at "regular" rock/dance/pop, but it's a plus.


Another problem I have is that I currently live in Brazil so would need to import the system. Do you know any store that ships worldwide?

I had a nice 2 channel setup in a room that size once... you can put a a pair of towers in there (just nothing with more than say dual 6.5 inch woofers)...

If you are considering headphones you can take a look at my signature (the DAC and Headphones would fit your budget)...

Or you can start looking at a pair of $1K Towers (such as Monitor Audio RS6/B&W 684/Axiom M60/PSB Image T55 etc etc etc) and a entry level integrated amp from NAD/Cambridge Audio/Marantz etc etc etc... and just use your computer as source (without a DAC or if you are willing to spend a little more, then you could get a $300 Musical Fidelity V-DAC or a $400 Cambridge Audio DAC Magic).

MusicDirect, audioadvisor, elusive disc, benchmark and Axiom all deliver worldwide

[Feanor]

I'm going to take a look at those speakers you mentioned.

I'm also starting evaluate the possibility of getting headphones instead -- at least for now, since they would be much cheaper and I would also be able to enjoy good music at the office.

I guess then my best option would be a Sennheiser HD600 or HD650?
Or is there anything better in their price range?

My Mac has analog and optical audio output. What would be the best way to plug the Sennheiser in it?

One of the Sennheisers would be my choice though there are a number of other relatively high-end headphones, e.g. AKG K 701. Check out HeadRoom (http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/full-size/) website.

The Sennheisers and most headphones are strictly analog. You could connect them directly to your Mac with a 1/8 to 1/4 adaptor, (like Option 1). However no doubt you'd get much better results connecting them to a DAC+head amp device, (like Option 3). The latter device would be connected either using Mac's optical digital, (S/PDIF), output, or USB depending on the facilities of the new device. A superb (but pricey) DAC+head amp device is the Benchmark DAC1 (http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/system1/digital-analog-converter/dac1-pre) that has versions with and without USB. Another with USB input would be the Musical Fidelity X-CANv3 (http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/smlx/xcanv8.html).

[barbutti]

I think I've made my decision based on what you guys said. I'll get either a Sennheiser HD600 or an AKG K701 -- depending on which one will be easier to find.

The headphone amplifier will definitely be tougher to find over here, so I'll stay without one for now. Then I'll have to do some research based on what I find.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

[Mr Peabody]

Does Amazon.com ship to Brazil? You can find most of what you are looking for there.

The powered speakers were a good idea. I'd highly recommend the AudioEngine. I bought a pair of the smaller ones for my daughter and the good reviews were not exaggeration. They do require some break in time so don't panic when first hearing them. The larger version with the 6" driver would rock the room pretty well. They even make a sub. Add the sub and you could definitely listen to dance music. These could hook up to your computer or directly to the Ipod. The larger version even has a charging dock.

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1231819033/ref=sr_nr_p_4_0?ie=UTF8&rs=172282&keywords=audio%20engine&bbn=172282&rnid=15784691&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3Aaudio%20engine%2Cp%5F4%3AAudio Engine

[barbutti]

Does Amazon.com ship to Brazil? You can find most of what you are looking for there.

The powered speakers were a good idea. I'd highly recommend the AudioEngine. I bought a pair of the smaller ones for my daughter and the good reviews were not exaggeration. They do require some break in time so don't panic when first hearing them. The larger version with the 6" driver would rock the room pretty well. They even make a sub. Add the sub and you could definitely listen to dance music. These could hook up to your computer or directly to the Ipod. The larger version even has a charging dock.

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1231819033/ref=sr_nr_p_4_0?ie=UTF8&rs=172282&keywords=audio%20engine&bbn=172282&rnid=15784691&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3Aaudio%20engine%2Cp%5F4%3AAudio Engine

Unfortunately they don't.

I also think the powered speakers is a great idea, but for now I'm going to stick with the headphone+amp. Since they're much smaller and lighters than the speakers, it's much easier (and cheaper) to import.

Thanks a lot for the help!

[sallysue]

Hi,


I'm new to the forums, and in actuality, new to the audio world. If my question is silly, please bear with me.

I'm a classical music enthusiast and I'm looking to replace my current standard sound system with one that is actually good and that will allow me to enjoy recordings as close to a live performance as possible.

I'm on a budget so I'm looking for a balance between good price and great sound quality.

My initial thought is getting a Home Theater receiver from Onkyo or Denon, together with a couple of speakers from Polk Audio's TSI or RSI bookshelf line.

Do you think this is a bad idea?

I'm very curious to know what you guys think and thanks for advance for the help.


What is the room size? What will be your listening levels? Does the room open to another one?

Classical music is a true full range listening experience and one of the most difficult to reproduce well. You may find bookshelves to be very lean in terms of bass reproduction. I would recommend towers and a sub depending on the room size. There is no mystery, low frequency sounds require a larger diameter cone capable of moving lots of air. If you want to reproduce a kettle drum you need a large transducer (12-15"). (There are ways to get around this but not on a budget)

Pitfall - Speaker specs

Watch out for speaker towers claiming to reach very low frequencies with 8" woofers. Yes they will preproduce 25hz - but how much and at what SP level? Almost none.

Don't worry about much below 30hz, very little music content in these frequencies and in fact not much below 40.

Watts - This biggest con job in the world, forget watt peaks. Any quality speaker make will produce pleanty of sound for normal listening.

I might suggest auditioning whatever line you choose with a piano cd. The piano is THE most difficult instrument to reproduce well. Voices can sound silky smooth and right on - but pop in a piano cd and you'll reveal any weakness in the speaker.

Lines you might look at - JBL , Energy , Klipsch, PSB. Klipsch is a "love it or hate it" speaker so...I've dealt with Polks for years and have mixed feelings, they are somewhat vieled and laid back but some folks like that kind of sound.

Sub - SVS or HSU

Hope this helps...

[barbutti]

Hi,




What is the room size? What will be your listening levels? Does the room open to another one?

Classical music is a true full range listening experience and one of the most difficult to reproduce well. You may find bookshelves to be very lean in terms of bass reproduction. I would recommend towers and a sub depending on the room size. There is no mystery, low frequency sounds require a larger diameter cone capable of moving lots of air. If you want to reproduce a kettle drum you need a large transducer (12-15"). (There are ways to get around this but not on a budget)

Pitfall - Speaker specs

Watch out for speaker towers claiming to reach very low frequencies with 8" woofers. Yes they will preproduce 25hz - but how much and at what SP level? Almost none.

Don't worry about much below 30hz, very little music content in these frequencies and in fact not much below 40.

Watts - This biggest con job in the world, forget watt peaks. Any quality speaker make will produce pleanty of sound for normal listening.

I might suggest auditioning whatever line you choose with a piano cd. The piano is THE most difficult instrument to reproduce well. Voices can sound silky smooth and right on - but pop in a piano cd and you'll reveal any weakness in the speaker.

Lines you might look at - JBL , Energy , Klipsch, PSB. Klipsch is a "love it or hate it" speaker so...I've dealt with Polks for years and have mixed feelings, they are somewhat vieled and laid back but some folks like that kind of sound.

Sub - SVS or HSU

Hope this helps...

It helps, thank you!

[sallysue]

It helps, thank you!

You're very welcome.

One more thing to beware of , salesman with vocal cds. As a sales rep (and I was) you are required to have a cd collection (of your choosing) that has simple instruments and vocals, specifically womens vocals - womens vocals sell speakers. You never audition speakers with complicated music such as classical unless it's a violin solo or something simple. IT'S A SALESMANS TRICK!!! Diana Krall cd's galore and hide the piano music.

If a customer wants to listen to his own collection- fine, but make sure you sit him down with YOUR collection and specific go-to music selections - read - speaker selling music.Certain speakers shine in certain ways so you want to have a collection of music for whatever brands they are choosing from.

A fool and his money is soon parted.

The truth - on the average - speakers costing around $1000.00 are damn good speakers. To get a lot better you have to move up to $5000.00 and the rule of diminishing returns.

Buy a pair of L 880's and save for a good sub.

[Ajani]

You're very welcome.

One more thing to beware of , salesman with vocal cds. As a sales rep (and I was) you are required to have a cd collection (of your choosing) that has simple instruments and vocals, specifically womens vocals - womens vocals sell speakers. You never audition speakers with complicated music such as classical unless it's a violin solo or something simple. IT'S A SALESMANS TRICK!!! Diana Krall cd's galore and hide the piano music.

If a customer wants to listen to his own collection- fine, but make sure you sit him down with YOUR collection and specific go-to music selections - read - speaker selling music.Certain speakers shine in certain ways so you want to have a collection of music for whatever brands they are choosing from.

A fool and his money is soon parted.

The truth - on the average - speakers costing around $1000.00 are damn good speakers. To get a lot better you have to move up to $5000.00 and the rule of diminishing returns.

Well said.... though I think you can get a lot better from $3K.... 3x is my rule for substantial improvement... but I agree that you can get damn good speakers for just $1K...

and yeah salesmen cherry pick the recordings they use to sell you speakers, which is why I always carry my favorite CDs when I go auditioning.. It doesn't matter how great the speakers sound with an original 1950s female solo LP, if I only plan to play 80s Rock on them or classical or rap etc...

[Mr Peabody]

Sallysue what lines did you rep?

[sallysue]

Mr Peabody


Sallysue what lines did you rep?

I don't want to highjack barbutti's thread and make it about me. I'll start another one in "General" under - A/V Discussion

[Screefer]

Well I'm new here and thought I'd throw in another choice for speakers.Have you looked at the Axiom website. They ship worldwide and are a very good choice for the budget minded.