Looking to replace Harman Kardon AVR 247

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

I am having many problems with my HKAVR247 and i'm finally fed up. I would like to stay in the $500 range but i can get great discounts on Yamaha and Pioneer so I could move into a higher unit from either of those manufacturers. Any suggestions would be great

[kexodusc]

I'd stick with one of the big 3 in the $500 ish a/v receiver range, Yamaha, Onkyo, or Denon. The Yamaha RX-V6XX models or HTR-6160 (same guts) for example, or similar offering from one of the other two...Each company has its strong supporters who might argue for this or that, but it seems Onkyo, Denon, and particularly Yamaha continue to be untouched in the reliability category. Pioneers are hit and miss. Feature wise, they're all pretty similar at any price point and sound quality is equivalent, if not exactly the same. You likely aren't giving up any 1 big feature going with either of those 3 brands.

Good luck.

[Mr Peabody]

I would lean toward Onkyo, if you believe the magazines Onkyo's power tests above rating with all channels driven where Yamaha falls short and I haven't seen any to comment on Denon. Typically, Onkyo offers the same features as a similar Denon for less money and will tend to be more functional or features for the money over Yamaha. I'd have to check the $500.00 Yamaha to be sure but in the lower level Onkyo offers fully functioning HDMI where Yamaha is pass through and/or lacks the upconversion capability. Which really upconversion is done in so many components who needs it again.

I don't know how recent Pioneer's 818 receiver is but it failed so miserably in S&V's power tests they should have sent it back to make sure it wasn't defective. With all channels driven I think it only did like 36 watts before clipping.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

I've come down to onkyo or yamaha. With onkyo its either the txsr606 or 706 and with yamaha the Yamaha v1900. Unfortunately there are no retailers that carry the 1900 in my area so i'm stuck with online reviews and such. The 1900 does retail for a bit more but i'm not really sure what i'd be getting in the 1900 over the 706, if anything at all. They will cost me the same so between all the models the price isn't a factor.

[kexodusc]

I would lean toward Onkyo, if you believe the magazines Onkyo's power tests above rating with all channels driven where Yamaha falls short and I haven't seen any to comment on Denon. Typically, Onkyo offers the same features as a similar Denon for less money and will tend to be more functional or features for the money over Yamaha. I'd have to check the $500.00 Yamaha to be sure but in the lower level Onkyo offers fully functioning HDMI where Yamaha is pass through and/or lacks the upconversion capability. Which really upconversion is done in so many components who needs it again.

I don't know how recent Pioneer's 818 receiver is but it failed so miserably in S&V's power tests they should have sent it back to make sure it wasn't defective. With all channels driven I think it only did like 36 watts before clipping.
IMO, Onkyo is the current value king at this price range, the only thing that scares me is the endless supply of refurbs I can find at many online store that make wonder about quality control..but still, Onkyo's are heads and tails above the likes of Sony and Pioneers and the bigger models are excellent.

On the power performance though - Onkyo doesn't use the same voltage limiting devices that choke off the power ratings in Yamaha's during the all-channels driven tests for protection purposes, and IIRC, some Denon's limit the current. Onkyo's been quite keen at exploiting the results of those tests in their marketing lately. I wouldn't say that's a negative because Yamaha's protection circuitry is overkill but it does point out even more irrelevance of the all-channels driven test. As has been proven a million times before, the all channels driven test really doesn't really show which amp will perform better in real world conditions. You will not find a movie or soundtrack anywhere that demands max power from all 5 or all 7 channels for minutes at a time. That's not music or movie audio. Doesn't exist. Dynamic, short burst performance is still what we need for movies and music, and if the amps send max power to a couple of channels with spare for the rest, that's what we need. What often happens is the amp that performs better in the all-channels driven test doesn't perform as well under real world conditions. An amp with higher rated dynamic power delivered to all channels for short bursts would play louder during movies, have more dynamic headroom and be "better" in that area. But it could fail the all-channels driven test against an inferior amp amp with less dynamic power that was designed to be capable of acing the all-channels driven test. Hard to draw many conclusions from this spec.

Pay more attention to the stereo power tests for more applicable relative performance until there's a multi-channel power test that captures the conditions in which the amp will be asked to perform. This is like evaluating an Olympic sprinter's performance in gymnastics.

Not sure how the Pioneer did there, but I'd expect if we lined up all the brands, put the same soundtrack in, they'd all hit the same dB levels give or take a bit without clipping under real world conditions.

That would be the last metric I'd use to evaluate a receiver, pay more attention to the goodies that Mr. P mention above, like Video upconversion, HDMI inputs, pre-outs, decoding capabilities, etc. These are things you'll actually experience or miss on a receiver.

[Worf101]

Can't find fault with the information you've been given thus far. I prefer Onkyo's because I KNOW how to set them up and I find their manuals to be somewhat understandable. But Yamaha and Denon also make pretty good kit. As for the plethora of refurbs, I think a lot of it has to do with ignorant purchasers who just don't know how to calibrate or set up a HT system. Sometimes there's NOTHING wrong with the gear, but plenty wrong with the operator.

Da Worfster

[kexodusc]

Worf speaks the truth...usually there's nothing wrong with refurbs, especially if they're backed by warranty. I've bought many devices as refurbs and have yet to be burned doing so...more often than not it is just returned goods for whatever reason. I just wonder where the other companies hide all theirs?

Jr.com is a good online retailer to deal with, they're listing the Onkyo TX-SR706B for $550. I almost always get a better price when asking for a quote on the phone from a salesperson, worth a phone call. That is a bad ass receiver for $550. It includes 3 HDMI inputs vs 2 from the Denon/Yammie equivalents which could be a deal breaker...would be for me.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

kex, not sure if you're familiar with the yamaha 1900 but i can get that for roughly $550-$600 as well and it has more hdmi inputs but three or four its all enough for me. So it really just comes down to sound quality, reliability, or some other major feature I might be missing.

if it were you (anyone who wants to give their opinion) do you go with the yamaha 1900 or onkyo 706, and why?

[Mr Peabody]

I still stick by Onkyo. If you heard their receiver side by side against a Yamaha I'd lay money you could hear more authority in the Onkyo's power. I think sound quality is more a preference. I find generally Yamaha to be a bit softer or lack control in the bass but usually has a more pleasant midrange, where Onkyo has more slam in the bass.

If you prefer the Yamaha for some reason you can always do what Kex and Rich did which is to add an external amp if you find the Yamaha didn't have enough power. Just be sure the model you are looking to buy has true preamp outs.

Kex, didn't Bobsticks or Rich buy a 1900 earlier in the year?

[kexodusc]

I still stick by Onkyo. If you heard their receiver side by side against a Yamaha I'd lay money you could hear more authority in the Onkyo's power. I think sound quality is more a preference. I find generally Yamaha to be a bit softer or lack control in the bass but usually has a more pleasant midrange, where Onkyo has more slam in the bass.

If you prefer the Yamaha for some reason you can always do what Kex and Rich did which is to add an external amp if you find the Yamaha didn't have enough power. Just be sure the model you are looking to buy has true preamp outs.

Kex, didn't Bobsticks or Rich buy a 1900 earlier in the year?


No Rich and LJ have the 3800 and 2800 models I believe (same PSU)...Sticks has an Onkyo I think, so does Worf of course. I still have one of the predecessor Yammie models from the year prior. Onkyo finished 3rd in my trials last time I did them (2004?) behind NAD which was just too overpriced for the sound quality it provided, but I could have lived with the Onkyo, it was equivalent in power and SQ, no better no worse than the others I tried except for the Harman Kardon and Nad. Between the 3 japanese brands, sound quality differences were minimal at best. Neither the Yamaha, Denon, nor Onkyo, all measuring 110 watts x 7 or better had the sound quality my power amps provided so I was using them as a pre-pro anyway but I did try them out cause I only had 4 channels worth of amps at the time. That Onkyo model was priced better, but also sorely lagged in the processing and feature department (TX-NR800 and 900 at the time)

LJ did a great search almost 2 years ago comparing Onkyo, Denon, and others in his home for a few weeks before ultimately settling with a Yamaha...he documented his trials right here in the forums. He preferred the Onkyo ever so slightly for music without a sub IIRC, but uses one so it was moot...for HT, multichannel audio, etc he preferred the model he eventually bought. Razor thin margins here though and each of the models left him wanting for more, which is probably why he ended up buying the power amp.

Yeah, there's gonna be some personal preference for sure. I'd recommend people try them with their speakers - speakers tend to saturate any sound characteristics anyway, different speakers, different impressions. I might have preferred a different receiver with different gear.

If SQ and power alone is the ultimate goal, I'd buy the smallest receiver possible with pre-outs ($340-$400 street price, maybe less) and then an Outlaw or Emotiva or something and blow away any of the big $1200 Yamaha or Onkyo receivers. Bigger PSU's, much higher current capability, lower S/N, crosstalk, etc...just far better amps in every single sense. Especially if you're not using a turntable, those little receivers are high value budget pre-pros. Some people need more inputs, processing, or features, or just don't have the space though...or do what I did and buy 2nd hand amps from NAD, Parasound, Adcom and the likes and use those to augment...Even in 2-channel mode I found a conservatively rated 60 watt X 2 Adcom had more headroom, better sound etc than the big 110 watt a/v receiver amps, and it was very obvious the louder I went. We're probably out of the OP's price range for now though.

[kexodusc]

kex, not sure if you're familiar with the yamaha 1900 but i can get that for roughly $550-$600 as well and it has more hdmi inputs but three or four its all enough for me. So it really just comes down to sound quality, reliability, or some other major feature I might be missing.

if it were you (anyone who wants to give their opinion) do you go with the yamaha 1900 or onkyo 706, and why?
Scott, the answer's not easy...you grab 10 people and 3 will prefer, Yamaha, 3 will prefer Onkyo, the other 4 will like neither. If you can, try them out with your speakers in your home...or your speakers at the dealer at least...

If you can't do that, you might look for people with the same speakers and ask what they like..doesn't mean you'll like it.

I wouldn't expect sound quality differences between either to be big at all. In fact, most people probably can't tell the differences. If you use it more for 2-channel music, I'd lean towards the Onkyo cause people seem to prefer them a bit more for stereo music performance, if it's used more for music and movies and video games, the Yamaha's seem to get better sound quality reviews. People are anal (me included).

Study the 2 models you're considering, if there's any features one has you think you might need in the future (I assume all BluRay codec decoding is the same) and you can't demo the models, then go with the one that has the extra feature(s). If they're equal, then it would seem to come down to what the better deal is. Both are excellent brands, and I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with either.

I went with Yamaha maybe 5 years ago, and upgraded again a few years later because nothing else convinced me to change. I used Marantz and HK before that but had too many problems with those brands and Yamaha's quality rep won me over. I'd have been happy with several models though. Sometimes the best deal wins.

[Mr Peabody]

I think Onkyo wised up and with the X05 series came on strong with features and value. The X05 series was one of the first to hit the street fully ready for Blu-ray and HDMI. In that below $400.00 range they still dominate in features/function. I haven't compared the higher end receivers, I'd hope for the extra bucks the competition would add all the goodies found in the Onkyos.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

I'm definitely more concerned with SQ for music than movies. My only concern with movies is with my setup now the dialogue isn't very clear, i'm hoping DDtrueHD and DTSHDMA will help with this as thats what ive heard from most people. if its still bad i'll look into different center channel options.

as no surprise to myself my original price cap of $500 is creeping up and now i'm just hoping to stay under $800 by the time i decide. starting to consider the onkyo 806 or the yammie 3800, i realized in this price range there are also options like the lower pioneer elites which i tend to hear so many people raving about. is it going to be same story with the elites?.. SQ pretty much the same as the onkyo and yamaha in this price point and just focus on features or is there something that will separate the elites, either better or worse?

[02audionoob]

Although the budget seems to be climbing, back at the original sub-$500 range it seems like the Onkyo TX-SR606 may be the lowest-priced receiver that decodes TrueHD audio. That feature would probably be the minimum cut-off point for me.

The comments about power are obviously accurate...a 60-watt Adcom amp sounds more powerful than a 90-watt AV receiver. As a salesman at Tweeter once said to me, "That's a different kind of 60 watts."

[f0rge]

my vote is for the onkyo 706 at this price range, it'll sound the best IMO