Totally confused about receivers!! [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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crash32
11-29-2008, 07:45 PM
I am 90% sure that I am going with the B&W 683's for my floor standing speakers along with the B&W center and surrounds.

The more I talked to the audio techs at the stores .... the more I got confused about which receiver I should get and also how much money I should invest in a receiver. At first I was going to get an Onkyo 805 since it has gotten great reviews, but now I'm not so sure.

50% of my listening is going to be music and the other will be 50% home theatre so a 2 channel receiver is out of the question. Some of the "experts" were saying that I MUST invest in a separate amp, some said that the Onkyo 805 would not be enough and some said it would be plenty. What the heck??

If it will make a .002% difference, I really dont care, but if the difference is going to be significant then I have no problem shelling out more $$$ on a receiver.

I was told that a receiver that is THX certified don't mean jack $hi% and that was only for movie theater purpose. What do I need to look for in a quality receiver that I am going to be using for 2 channel listening AND HT use? I thought that the 130 watts per channel that the Onkyo has was going to be plenty, but some said that it uses the same amp to drive the unit itself as it does the speakers and that would cause distortion.... help me out here guys!!!!!

02audionoob
11-29-2008, 08:01 PM
Just personal experience but...on music, I think my Denon home theater receiver sounds like doggie poop compared to my two-channel setup.

BadAssJazz
11-29-2008, 10:05 PM
Let me take a crack at this...from a layman's perspective.

Generally speaking, having a QUALITY separates set up (where you have a preamp/processor unit and a second unit that is just the amplifier, and sometimes a third unit which is the tuner) is usually the best way to go from a performance perspective. Separates are just canon for audiophiles.

That said, there is something to be said about receivers.

For one, they usually have the most current AV bells and whistles, as where separates typically lag behind in that department.

Secondly, there is the pricing difference. You simply cannot get all of the features in HT separates that you will find in an HT receiver at the same price point. (Some exceptions here, but if you see a receiver that costs as much as separates, go with the separates.)

Third, while separates generally sound better, a quality receiver can hold it's own and in some cases excel to the point that you won't have any buyer's remorse.

Fourth, although a minor one, space constraints sometimes make a receiver a preferred choice.

Finally, there is the issue of speaker "matching" with separates that is not as pronounced an issue for receivers... probably because audiophiles avoid them. As where some might go on for days about whether or not their Pass Labs amp mates well with their Usher CP8871 speakers, receivers are much more accommodating.

THX basically says that a unit meets certain specifications. It should not be a primary consideration in purchasing any unit. Your ear, your wallet, and the desired HT features are all that count.

The key to really getting to the bottom of this dilemma is to audition for yourself. If you have an AV dealer in your area that has separates and receivers set up in a sound room, call them up and take some of your CD's and favorite DVD's with you when you go.

And if after all of that you're still not sure whether to pick separates over a receiver, go with my hard and fast rule: If the receiver costs more than $2000, buy separates.

blackraven
11-30-2008, 12:03 AM
Crash, at the price point your looking at, go with the Onkyo, it will do just fine with the 683's.
At some point in the future if you want to upgrade to a separate amp you can use the onkyo as a preamp and purchase a dedicated 2ch amp and use a niles amp switcher like I use, or upgrade to a multichannel amp like an Emotiva which are very reasonably priced.
That Onkyo has a nice amp section and 130wpc of high current, more than enough for the 683's at loud volumes.

What I would be more concerned about is what audio source are you going to use (brand of CDP). This will probably have more of an impact on sound quality.

Once you get your receiver and speakers you'll love them and wont know the difference until you listen to a better system then yours. You'll drive yourself crazy because you will always criticize your system always thinking it can sound better. You will be looking for the unattainable holy grail of sound.

audio amateur
11-30-2008, 05:11 AM
If you want decent music look at Cambridge Audio receivers (640R for example). Unfortunately you won't get the latest 'bells & whistles'.

Mr Peabody
11-30-2008, 11:54 AM
First, I agree that the Onkyo 805 will push the B&W's just fine. However, it's a receiver and will have limits in sound quality, whether to go beyond really depends on how satisfied with the 805's sound you are. If wanting to explore before you jump, which is a good idea to convince you that the right decision was made. The Cambridge Audio is a good suggestion as well as receivers from Rotel, Arcam and NAD, some of which will cost more than the 805.

In regards to separates there are some available that have the same features as receivers if not more, such as the Marantz AV8003 preamp, the MM8003 is the matching amp. This combo will far exceed the 805 but will set you back about $4.5k give or take depending on who and where you buy from.

Rotel has also recently put out a preamp processor that is up to date with features but I haven't looked at yet. As well there is an Integra fully loaded.

A lot of guys are satisfied with a receiver and don't understand what the fuss is about and nothing wrong with that. Some of us are more critical. You'll just have to listen to these things a weigh it out for yourself because it is you who will be doing the listening in your house.

One other thing to consider, regardless of what some will tell you, there is an improvement in the surround sound or movie playback of a better receiver or preamp. If a preamp is more capable of imaging, more clarity, larger sound stage, faster transcients, able to make the speakers disappear, then why wouldn't it bring this to the table for the HT side as well? Indeed, it does. A better preamp will also provide better steering of effects from speaker to speaker. All of this can give a more spectacular home theater experience.

crash32
11-30-2008, 12:11 PM
Okay...sorry guys but I'm still a bit confused. So the ONLY reason and time you need a preamp and an amp as separate units is when you are listening to 2 channel only???

If I am using my system as 50% HT then it would not make any sense to buy a separate units since it would be a pain to constantly having to switch back and forth between the receiver and the separate units. Sorry if that does not make any sense, but people have gotten me all confused now hahaha.

For example.... what to most audiophiles do when they have a very nice speakers such as the B&W 800 series and they also use it for HT and the video aspect is important to them too. What do those people do as far as receivers go???? I hope I am making sense!

BadAssJazz
11-30-2008, 01:37 PM
Crash,

For those audiophiles who listen to music only (i.e., a stereo or 2 channel format), they buy a separate preamp and amplifier(s), They don't bother with receivers. (Side: Yes, I'm deliberately leaving out integrated amps just to keep this discussion on point.)

For those true audiophiles who want a home theater arrangement, they buy separates as well, only they buy a Surround Sound Processor like the Marantz AV8003 that Peabody mentioned, and accompanying power amplifier(s). The surround processor is what decodes the AV signal sent to it by the various source components (DVD player, Blu Ray player, etc.). The power amplifier receives the info from the processor and sends it to your speakers.

Power amps can have one channel, aka, a "monoblock" format (by channel we mean speaker connections, more or less) or as 7 or more channels, aka a "multichannel" format. For simplicity's sake, most AV audiophiles will buy either a 5 channel amp or a 7 channel amp for the fronts, center, and rear/side surround effect speakers.

A receiver is basically the Surround Processor and Power Amps all in one box. Much of the issues that audiophiles have with receivers stems from the fact that cramming all of these components into one unit inevitably results in some sacrifices in sound quality. I think everyone will agree that is a truism across the board.

That said, as mentioned in my earlier post, there are some great quality receivers that even the most devout audiophiles will tip their hat to. We've mentioned quite a few manufacturers, from Anthem (Sonic Frontiers) to Cambridge Audio to B&K to Rotel to Arcam and on and on.

Bringing the discussion more into our common man's sphere, Onkyo, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Yamaha, Denon... all manufacture some of the best AV receivers on the market. While the hand wringing is appropriate, I don't think you can go far wrong picking a solidly performing AV receiver, if your budget doesn't allow for an AV separates set up.

crash32
11-30-2008, 02:19 PM
If I bought a used preamp and an amp......what price range am I looking at to get a respectable set-up for my B&W 683's?

I can get an Onkyo for around $600 and am trying to see how much more I would have to spend if I wanted to go the other route. If I bought the separate components it would have to be capable of giving me surround sound of course (5.1).

If I could get a decent set-up for $2,000 or less then I might consider it, but if this is going to cost me well over $2,000 for the smallest gains, then in my case it would not be worth it.

If I went a step up.....which there is a slim chance I might (Paradigm Stuido 100's), then I would allow for more money to be spent on the preamp/amps, but I am not sure if it is worth it for my 683's since they are easier to drive and not as power hungry.

Thanks again for the advice and keep em coming!!!!

BadAssJazz
11-30-2008, 02:42 PM
Let me respond a different way.

First let me introduce you to sites that I often browse. Both Audiogon and Spearit Sound offers up used equipment. Audiogon is for sale by owner...and you take your chances. Spearit Sound is a retailer, so you can always call on them for any additional assistance and inquiries:

http://www.audiogon.com/
http://www.spearitsound.com/home.htm

Like many others on this forum, I know that at some point in the future I will upgrade. It goes back to that "holy grail" that someone alluded to earlier. Or maybe I'm just never satisfied. In any event, my target price is sub $2000 for a separate surround processor and multi-channel amp.

I'm currently keeping an eye on used separates from Integra/Onkyo and Marantz. Used, the processors can be had for under $2000. I'll have to purchase a multichannel power amp at a later date, but I've no problems building in stages. After all, I have the 805 to fall back on in the meantime. :-)

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1233029021&/Marantz-AV8003-Preamp-like-new

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1232500743&/Onkyo-Pro-pr-sc-885p-superb-pr

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1232897576&/Integra-DCT-9.8-av-processor

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1232402545&/Integra-DTC-9.8

Mr Peabody
11-30-2008, 06:58 PM
You are probably not going to find too many preamp/processors on the used market that is up to date with the latest features. What you are probably going to find is a lot of people selling their older preamps after upgrading or updating. Like myself, I have a Primare 31.7 which cost $4k new, I was trying to sell at nearly a fourth of that. It's an excellent sounding preamp but lack HDMI and the capability to do HD audio format decoding. It does have multichannel analog inputs which can be used for SACD or Blu-ray, so it's not totally out dated. You will need to know the features you want and need in order to choose something off the used market. The positive side you could get a better than average sounding system for your money.

blackraven
12-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Crash, here are a couple of web sites where you can purchase separates at a reasonable price for around $2k-

www.emotiva.com

www.outlawaudio.com

These will perform better than the Onkyo assuming you use a good audio source.

You could even mix and match, like buying an outlaw preamp and an emotiva amp.

Bu the emotiva processor and 5ch amp cpmbo will cost about $1400 and is a real bargain

emesbee
12-01-2008, 10:40 PM
Here's my 2c worth.

I have a Musical Fidelity stereo integrated amp driving my main speakers for music. I also have a Marantz HT receiver driving the other speakers and feeding the front L/R channels into the stereo amp via pre-outs.

So, for music, I just use the stereo amp. For home theatre, I run the amp and the receiver together, and just set the volume on the stereo amp to the halfway mark, so I kind of use it like a power amp. Ok, its a bit of a compromise arrangement, but it works well enough. HT actually sounds better this way than through the Marantz by itself.

pixelthis
12-02-2008, 01:26 AM
I am 90% sure that I am going with the B&W 683's for my floor standing speakers along with the B&W center and surrounds.

The more I talked to the audio techs at the stores .... the more I got confused about which receiver I should get and also how much money I should invest in a receiver. At first I was going to get an Onkyo 805 since it has gotten great reviews, but now I'm not so sure.

50% of my listening is going to be music and the other will be 50% home theatre so a 2 channel receiver is out of the question. Some of the "experts" were saying that I MUST invest in a separate amp, some said that the Onkyo 805 would not be enough and some said it would be plenty. What the heck??

If it will make a .002% difference, I really dont care, but if the difference is going to be significant then I have no problem shelling out more $$$ on a receiver.

I was told that a receiver that is THX certified don't mean jack $hi% and that was only for movie theater purpose. What do I need to look for in a quality receiver that I am going to be using for 2 channel listening AND HT use? I thought that the 130 watts per channel that the Onkyo has was going to be plenty, but some said that it uses the same amp to drive the unit itself as it does the speakers and that would cause distortion.... help me out here guys!!!!!


EVERYBODIES ignoring what you are saying, mainly that you just want to get the job done.
I don't think you will benefit from seperates, they just arent for most people, actually.
SO pick out a nice receiver, cant help you there, you have to go with how you like the sound, the features.
One word of advice...DON'T SKIMP.
More expensive receivers actually tend to be more ergonomic, because they are usually designed better.
When I WENT FROM a 7 to 8 hundred dollar to a 1200 dollar the
jump in fun was huge, more than you would expect, as was the sound.
I recomend Integra, Onkyos "lexus" brand, they look nicer and
construction parameters are closer, and the faceplate is still
a huge chunk of aluminum, not aluminum poser.
GOOD LUCK:1:

crash32
12-02-2008, 09:56 AM
Thanks a ton for the help. It has helped put things in perspective!

Thanks again