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MDL
11-29-2008, 07:42 AM
Which would you buy if price is equal??
1. Montana, HD service is limited w/ no locals over Dish/Direct/Cable. Rabbit ears may bring in 2 of 5 HD locals. Have Dish SDTV will go to HDTV.
2. Watch allot of sports and old movies via SDTV.
3. Have Denon 3808, PS3, Defitive Tech 2002 surround sound w/ Rel T2 subwoofer.
4. Have 400 DVDs, but looking forward to Blu-ray audio & video.
5. Will start playing games for fun, but not an issue.
6.Thought about Pioneer 5020 ($2300) or Pro-111 ($3400) internet, but may be to small for 10-15 ft viewing. Pioneer 6020 ($3800) is alittle steep $$.
7. Understand Samsung and Panasonic have some issues showing SDTV. Panasonic has issue w/48hz rate processing w/ flicker.

RoadRunner6
12-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Hi MDL, You have a couple of different questions on several different threads. I'll give my opinion here on both.

First, the plasma is an easy one for me. In my opinion you are making the correct choice in choosing a plasma display and especially a 58" model. We have a new 50" Costco version of the Panny plasma (first the 768p model and now the 1080p model). We upgraded from a 42". I keep joking with my wife that we now need a 58'. At first she laughed and now after she has become used to the 50" set she says that she can actually see that a 58" would be even nicer. We will keep the 50" because we don't have room for the 58" to fit in our living room. You will never regret the 58" even at 10' (I don't care what the guidelines say).

The Panasonic is my choice. The Samsung's have come a long way in quality and performance over the past 5 years or so. However, Panasonic is in their 11th or so generation of making the best quality and performing units for the money. The only exception to this is the Pioneer which might be ever so slightly better in some performance factors but in my opinion not worth the extra $1000 in your case for the 60" Pioneer (unless money is no object). The Panasonics are very reliable.

The PZ800U is just below the PZ850U ($250 more) and might be a better choice in my opinion. It has the THX setting which is apparently quite accurate. There is a question about the 24p Cinematic Playback/48Hz and some slight flicker. I don't consider this important and probably only visible or annoying if you are super focussed and looking for it. I disagree about comments I see on SDTV. We happen to have a very good clean cable signal (condo is only 7 years old with the latest wiring). I am very impressed with the PQ of our set with SDTV as well as HDTV. The actual source programming is very important. I am also extremely impressed with the scaling/upconversion of the Panny set. I am feeding it a 480p signal on an older $100 Panny DVD player with high quality regular DVD's and the PQ is surprisingly good. When I tested it 2 months ago with a borrowed Panny DMP-BD30 the PQ with top quality Blu-Ray discs was superb. I understand the Blu-Ray peformance of the PS3 is excellent.

The 58" Panasonic plasmas have from my reading and viewing (my friend owns the 600U) been the best performing of all of their units. I think you will find it very impressive. These new Panasonics have great contrast and it makes for very impressive color and scene depth. I don't think for the money you could choose a better set than the TH-58PZ800U.

I'm a little confused about your posts on the sub. Do you already own the the REL T2? Maybe you are still deciding or want to upgrade. Maybe you have the REL for music and now want an additional sub for HT movies?

Can you please clear this up and also it would be nice to give us a description of your room; size including ceiling height and any wall openings, carpeting and sound absorbing material such as drapes, and how about sound levels you prefer.

Right off, I can tell you I prefer one sub for both music and HT. If you have enough money for two subs then I would normally go for the most expensive you can afford or perhaps multiple subs.

I think more info will help me and others give better advice. Thanks

RR6 :D

PS: I was born in WA State but my parents and siblings are from Conrad, Havre and Whitefish (what a great state!).

MDL
12-02-2008, 02:13 AM
Thank you very much for your feedback and insight into the Panasonic Plasma. Sorry for the long thread in advance!

My environment: Temporary!
I live with my girlfriend in her two story house with her two kids (18 & 15), I'm downstairs in a two bedroom, two bath, great room. This arrangement is temporary, two more years and both kids are in college and we are free to move to Salt Lake City. I ride my Harley in the summer and ski in the winter, SLC is the best skiing per square mile in the USA. The great room is 12' by 30' rectangle. The back end is kitchen and the front is living room. Double doors and a triple window (curtains) on one side and flat wall (prints) on the other. Furniture in the middle, carpet with a 8' ceiling. Not the greatest room for sound, but it's not permanent. I'm buying for the future, not the moment.

My OLD gear: All purchased 5-7 years ago!
Speakers: Definitive Tech BP 2002 TL w/ 12" powered woofers, DT C/L/R 2002 center, BPX rears. Good and keeping.
TV-Hitachi, AVR-Denon, CD-Sony CPP-CX90ES (200 pack), DVD-Sony DVP-CX985V (400 pack) Old and shopping new!

My NEW gear: Shopping to purchase the gear!!
TV: I started looking at the 50" and decide early to go larger. Yes the Pioneer is great up not worth the money and is less desireable for SDTV. I watch allot of sports and old movie on SD, so SD is important to me. Missoula HD locals are a joke and require a sperate antenna, they are not provided on DISH, Direct or cable. I'm a visual person so the TV is important to me and I have spent the most time reviewing articles, threads and looking at in stores.

AVR: I like and read good reviews on the Denon 3808, thought about the 4308. The 4308 has a better processor and Wifi. Internet is the future so I was thinking along those lines, except it's not worth the exra money. I understand that the AVR is the brains of the system, it's a midrange model and I think this will meet my needs.

DVD: I like the PS3 (160 gb), it's multi tasking and more than meets the blu-ray requirements. I'm not a gamer, but I think I will try this new enviroment. I will connect to the internet and my CPU via ethernet and be able to stream (new concept to me) and rip my CD library to the hard drive. All this will be new and I need to better understand this system.

Subwoofer: I've been told that I should get a sub to round out my speaker system, to presurrize the room correctly (??), and pickup the lost bass that the DT 2002 miss. It was recommended to me the Rel T2, SVS PB12-PLus, HSU MK3, Velodyne SP-L, Martin Logen Dynamo. All greek to me!!

Remote Control: I like the Logtech Harmony One, midrange price. It's not RF, but the next two years not a requirement. It's self programable with allot of bang for the bucks!

Cables: I have old 12 ga monster cables with bare wire ends. Do I need new cables?? I will go to Monoprice to buy HDMI cables, why buy $100 cables?

AV Furiture: Will place Plasma on stand with center speaker underneath. All AV equipment will go into a AV stand next to center stand, all open ventilation! Future: Will purchase a 60-70" low boy all in one cabinet.

Extras: I'm looking at XM radio, MP3 docking, internet interface, and anything for better life enjoyment!! We live in a world of now and I want to keep an open mind to the future. Sorry for the very long thread, but I wanted you to understand my environment and project. This purchase will be made before Christmas, it's my Christmas to myself.

RoadRunner6
12-02-2008, 01:02 PM
Until I hear back on your budget let me put down some of my thoughts.

Music and/or movies. I feel one sub is fine for both. The opposing view is predicated on the opinion that subs for music are more flat, accurate, musical and quick. Subs for movies are louder, go lower, but with poor definition and tend to be boomy. I disagree in that an excellent sub has these characteristcs as well as low bass extension at low distortion. Both sealed and ported designs can produce excellent results.

Auditioning subs at dealers is a very fuzzy exercise. The performance of a sub is significantly affected by the location in and the acoustics of the room.

I prefer factory direct to buyer companies, especially for sub. You have mentioned two of them, SVS and HSU. You in my opinion will get a superior product for much less money.

Music genrally does not go much below 35-40 Hz, with a few exceptions like pipe organ music. Subs for music only are generally fine if their frequency response is reasonably flat down to about 30Hz (at -3dB) or so. There are many fine subs in this class. However, they are not suitable for movies.

http://www.gvst.co.uk/FreqChart.gif

Many modern movies have bass content down to 25Hz, 20Hz or even 15Hz and slightly below. The best subs for movies have lower extension with low distortion somewhere in this general area 15-25Hz (at -3dB). Most of them will top out somehwere in the 100-150Hz (-3dB) area.

You will find medium to large subs and the what I call cube subs. Cube subs are small and have a cabinet size not much larger than the speaker driver. In my opinion forget the cube subs unless you are really pinched for room. They have reasonably impressive performance but at a higher cost and some trade-off such as extra long excursion drivers, heavier magnets and tons of watts. All of these are necessary to try to get them to perfom near the level of conventional larger box subs. They are cute and impressive for their size but not a good bargain unless you absolutely need the tiny size. This would eliminate the Velodyne SPL subs from your consideration IMO.

Done with my lunch break, will continue tonight...........

Sorry MDL I misunderstood your system. Perhaps if I had read it more carefully I would have not been confused. You say you do have the REL T2 sub here:

"Have Denon 3808, PS3, Defitive Tech 2002 surround sound w/ Rel T2 subwoofer"

I read the Def Tech models you listed in another area but thought you had 3ea of the LCR 2002's. Now I understand you have 2ea of the BP 2002 towers w/built-in powered sub, 1ea of the LCR 2002 center and 2ea of the BPX surrounds. Unfortunately I could not find accurate specs on exactly how low the sub in the BP 2002 goes. It says about 18Hz, but with no decibel reference that is useless. Perhaps in the onwer's manual it gives more detail such 20Hz-20,000Hz +/- 3dB. Thus, I can only guess that its low end is around 20-25z at -3dB's. I know it crosses over to the built-in sub at 80Hz. So my first question is why do you think you even need an external powered sub? Someone told you it was to pressureize your room. What they probably mean there is that human hearing goes down to about 20Hz. From 20Hz on down we only feel the bass. A high performance sub that goes down below 20 hz will fill the room with frequencies and a pressure you can feel. I would like to know if this is the same person that tried to sell you the REL T2?

From what I know about the BP 2002, the bass from some owners is described as a little muddy but that is the only complaint I saw (others said it was great). Otherwise, it actually goes lower than many separate subs. So if you add a sub the purpose would be to take over the bass from the BP 2002's at some frequency (such as 30-40 Hz) and on down to the lower ranges. This would clean up the bass some and have less distortion. But we are talking here about a pretty good sub that would extend down below 20 Hz. Of the four you listed only one would even qualify and that is the HSU-VTF-3 MK3 (9137). The REL T2 (3018), Dynamo (2049), and the SB12-Plus (2940) are small cabinet subs that are very nice subs but not what you are looking for. It takes a big box sub to reproduce the lowest bass at high volumes with low distortion. The figures I put in the parenthises above are the cubic inch volumes of these sub's enclosures. The VTF-3 MK3 has about 3 times the volume of the others and is specified to go down to about 18Hz at -3dB's in the max bass extension mode. Low bass in subs cost money. For subs that go lower you have to pay from $950 (SVS PC-12 Plus) and up. Subs from HSU and SVS that go near 15Hz run in the $1299-$1599 range (these are amazing subs).

I question whether you really need a sub. However, it looks like someone has been trying to sell you one. It will definitely improve your low bass performance but it will cost you to do it right. Also your Def Tech towers are very complicated in their hookup possibilities. Adding an external sub will make it even more complicated. I would make sure you have hooked up the BP 2002's in the best possible manner and only then consider adding an external sub. this quote from a review on these BP 2002's:

"The manual devotes six and a half pages to the many possible connection combinations."

To get good pro advice I would call SVS, HSU or Axiom Audio on the phone. These are smaller companies and will let you talk to a real expert. These guys can give you the best recommendations and will not push their own products.

Overall, you've put together a nice system with the 3808, PS3 and other components you listed. Monprice and cheap speaker wire is fine by me (others disagree but it will cost you money! .... Put that money in a more expensive sub).

You do make me very envious though talking about all that skiing in SLC with that great dry snow. Up here In Seattle what they call powder is like fresh poured concrete! I used to spend lots of time down in Hamilton. Good Luck.

RR6 :D

RoadRunner6
12-02-2008, 03:50 PM
Subwoofer: Are you talking about one sub for both music and movies (one sub is fine)? It looks like your budget is in the $750 range for a sub, is that correct? This makes a big difference on what I wood recommend. Let us know about your budget for the sub(s). The HSU is considerably larger than the other two you mention. This size is OK (I hope)?

If you can go to the $1000-$1250 range let us know.

(this post got out of order somehow)

MDL
12-02-2008, 05:27 PM
If I already have two subwoofer, one in each one of my front Def Tech 2002, why do I need a $1000 sub?? The range is $700 to TBD, based on what I need. Bad answer but I do not know why I would need more. Size is always an issue depending where it's place. Again brand and model is TBD.

RoadRunner6
12-03-2008, 10:20 AM
MDL, see long response above (somehow these posts got out of order)

MDL
12-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Thank you for your outstanding responce, I'll try to answer your question.
1. Your correct with 2-front 2002, each with a 12" powered sub, 1 center 2002, 2 rear PBX for a 5.1 system
2. No spec exect; frequency range 17Hz-30kHZ, efficiency 92 dB, power amp sub 250 watts.
3. Yes, Jeromy said addition sub and T2.
Jeromy is very very knowledgable in his role at Vann's. We have talked on many subject from AVR, TV, speakers & subs, wiring, remotes, etc He does not push these products, but provides input. He talks like you above when talking sub. He is 27-30 yrs old, play bass guitar, internet geek with a good personality. I say this to you so you can understand his personality and thus recommendation. I've talked with him 10-15 times over the last 30 days.
My budget for this sub is $700-1000 if the sub is an import part of the system.

MDL
12-03-2008, 03:09 PM
RR6

Price of my gear: Have you seen better deal?
Panasonic 58PZ800 Amazon $2650
Denon 3808 Amazon $1225
Speaker TBD
Logtech Harmony One Amazon $200
PS3-160 gb Best Buy $500

MDL
12-04-2008, 03:02 PM
RR6
Did I provide the feedback you needed to answer my question on subwooofer??

RoadRunner6
12-04-2008, 06:10 PM
MDL, your other thread "Rel T2 Vis Svs Sb12-plus" is useless IMO because I don't believe they realize you have floorstanding speakers with buit-in powered sub.

I'll try to make this clear. I'm sure the guy at Vann's is nice. They have a very reputable online business. I and others here frequently recommend them.

You have an unusual speaker, because it has a built-in powered sub. Only a few brands and models are like yours. This makes it a whole different ballgame when trying to match it with a sub, if in fact you even need a sub. You never mentioned if you are in fact satisfied with your speakers and if in fact you feel the bass can be improved. Maybe you were just in the shop talking about your system and Jeremy suggested you could improve them by adding a sub?

The idea of a sub is to take over from the main speakers where their low bass extension runs out. For example, many tower and bookshelf speakers have a low end limit at about 40-80Hz or so. In this case you look for a sub that can continue reproducing the bass on down below the bottom capabilites of the main speaker.

For music only, subs that go down to about 30Hz or so are usually fine. Many subs can handle down to 30Hz or so with reasonable performance.

With movies it is a different situation. You must decide how much you are willing to pay for the low bass performance. It costs money to build a sub that goes low. Many movies go down to 15hz or lower. Only the very best and most expensive subs perform at this level. Many people will accept a sub (as a financial comprimise) that only goes down to 25Hz. This is a very common level for very good subs and many are happy with this level of performance.

In the above class I would include the three subs you mentioned, the REL, Dynamo and SVS SB (small box). These are all very nice subs for both music and movies. However, note that your Def Tech's are quite efficient (play loud) and it takes a strong sub to keep up with some of the loud parts of movie soundtracks. But there is a problem for you. You already have a sub built-in to your BP2002. Many people with those speakers would never even consider an external sub. Those that do consider it for one of two reasons:

#1 They are not happy with the performance of the built-in sub. As I mentioned before, Def Tech does not give us an accurate idea of the low end. I have to presume it is somewhere in the down to 25Hz at -3dB's or so range. That means it is roughly equivalent to the performance of the three sub listed above. However, they proabably perform better than the built-in sub. Thus you could buy one of these or a similar sub to improve the performance of your system from 80Hz and down to about 25Hz for the $500-$800 range. I would recommend in this case actually disconnecting the built-in sub rather than running them both at the same time which would not offer any advantage other than increased volume. The setup would be complicated and Jeremy or somewhat could give you advice on the proper connections and settings. You would be spending the money and getting slighlty better definition and lower distortion performance in this 25-80Hz range. You would also perhaps eliminate one of the primary problems with the built-in powered subs (which you are probably not aware of) which is room modes and standing waves. This is a subject for another post. Suffice to say that being able to move a sub to a slighly different location can drastically lower nasty sounding bass peaks which is not possible with your speakers which have to be in one location for the best mids and highs. If your low bass tends to sound boomy and muddy this could be the problem.

#2 They want to extend the bass performance of their system down to the lowest levels, somewhere in the 15-25 Hz range. At about 20Hz and below you actually start to feel rather than hear the bass and the room becomes "pressurerized" with these low frequency waves. This cost more money to accomplish. The laws of speaker physics requires a large box with the best components to pull off this trick. So if you are not happy with the low bass performance of the BP2002's (80 and below) and you want to extend their bass perfomance lower down past 25Hz then here is the solution.

Buy a sub that performs as I mentioned just above. The only way to remotely accomplish this in your stated budget is by buying a factory direct sub. Some of the great subs that would also do the trick like some of the Velodynes, etc. are way too expensive for you. Within your budget there are only a few that would reach the upper range of 20-25Hz at loud and clean levels. I will list them below. There should be pro reviews linked there. I will try to link them in approx ascending price. I will also include some above your budget which will get you down into the 15-20Hz range. All of these in my opinion should replace the sub in the BP2002 and not run at the same time. The sub in the BP2002 would simply tend to muddy the sound with much higher distortion. You would set the speakers in the Denon 3808 speaker setup procedures all to "small" and the crossover frequencies to 80Hz. I am not familiar with the complicated settings on the back of the BP2002, but this should work. Now the PB2002 will handle everything down to 80Hz and the sub from 80Hz and down to the lowest depths. In reality we are putting the built-in sub out to pasture. Others might recommend that you run the built-in sub (as large) and external sub simultaneously. I feel this will muddy up the sound. Notice the enclosures on the below subs are much large and heavier than any of the above three



http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3-turbo.html

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_plus.cfm

(there are many subs below $1000 that will reach somewhat below 25Hz at loud levels with low distortion. I feel these are some of the best price/performance choices available)



Over $1000

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-newpb12plus.cfm

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15.html (somewhat smaller in size)

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcultra_new.cfm

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

These last four subs are close to the very best performing subs at any price.

If you can handle the cyclindical shape they are a slightly better performing sub for the same price level due to the advantage of the enclosure shape and lower enclosure build costs.

RR6

RoadRunner6
12-04-2008, 06:15 PM
RR6

Price of my gear: Have you seen better deal?
Panasonic 58PZ800 Amazon $2650
Denon 3808 Amazon $1225
Speaker TBD
Logtech Harmony One Amazon $200
PS3-160 gb Best Buy $500

Those are all great prices. I could only find a lower price at $1088 on the 3808 from a reputable dealer.

MDL
12-05-2008, 09:29 AM
RR6
First let me say thank you for the feedback to my question. Thank you for taking the time to first think about the question and then research the answer and provide it to me. The answer provided a learning tool first and then question to be asked second. I now better understand the dynamics of a sub and how they connect to the other speakers. If I were starting over, I would not buy these speakers with the sub built in. Yes, they provide very good sound when connect correctly. Now that I'm older I have different taste and needs, wish it was "older and wiser." I am heading to Vann's to talk with Jeromy about your feedback, I've printed your feedback so he can read what you've pointed out. I will return and provide feedback, please do not forget this thread.

What is your opion as to internet purchases of a TV vis buying at Vanns (local) for a few dollars more?? Also, where did you see the Denon for $1100 and is it a authorized dealer??

MDL
12-05-2008, 09:36 AM
RR6
Bottomline: Pick one sub for under $1000, which one and why???
MDL

RoadRunner6
12-05-2008, 01:16 PM
The internet dealers now do an excllent job of shipping the plasmas with no damage. However, if the price is only a few dollars more I would definitely go with Vann's. Jeremy's help will probably be well worth the extra cost including all the time he has already spent with you. Be sure you ask him or me about the first 100 hours beak-in period on plasmas. It is not considered necessary by many now, but I still do it just to be extra cautious.

The Denon was at PowerSellers. They obviously are not an authorized dealer but probably offer a third party warranty for a price. Is the $300 plus worth the slight possibility (probably well under 5% rate for quality receivers) that you would need repairs within the warranty period? I don't think so and always buy where I get the cheapest price as long as the dealer has a very high rating. It's called self insurance and I save a ton of money this way. I have owned many receivers since I bought my first one 39 years ago. I have never had any problems under 12 years of ownership with the exception of one that was dead out of the box and immediately returned for refund.

http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/home-audio-receivers/Denon-AVR-3808CI-Receiver/m42612760.html/search=denon%20avr%203808/st=sort/sort_type=bottomline/qlty=n

If you are OK with the cylinder shaped sub, the SVS PC-12-Plus is a superb sub for the price and definitely the choice of the bunch. It is lighter (60 lbs) than the HSU turbo (90lbs) and easy to move around by rolling it on its edge. The lower weight is due to the round construction advantage and not to lower quality. This is simply an amazing sub at $950 and equal or superior in performance to subs in the $1500-$2500 range in B&M dealers. It has a very high quality driver, plays loud and low with very low distortion and excellent decay (it's quick). It also has a parametric EQ for correcting an in room hump. Read up on the reviews on previous models like the 20-39PC Plus, etc. Secrets of Home Theater is a good source for sub reviews. Or just put the exact model number in your search engine followed by the word review to find many reviews. SVS is one first class company. Their people are great to talk with over the phone, (same goes for HSU). On the page for the PC-12 Plus see the "Avia/SPL Meter Bundle" for $80. This is the best $80 you will ever spend. If you prefer the box sub then go with the HSU VTF-3 MK3 with or without Turbo.

You said it, so I have to agree that the idea of a speaker with a built-in sub sounds good at first but has too many disadvantages. If you like the Def Tech bi-polar sound then I would also consider selling the two BP2002's and replacing them with 2ea LCR2002's (or current equivelant model). Don't worry about the bass, that is what the separate sub is for. The bass on the LCR 2002 is fine. Keeping the BP 2002 is just fine also if you bypass the built-in sub.

(I sent you a private message).

RR6