My system sounds like crap all a sudden...help!

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

i have an HK AVR247, it has had a few problems in the past when running the ez set eq with sending only very high frequencies to my center channel even though the crossover was set to 40hz, thsi was resolved by reseting the receiver but returns whenever i dont set up manually. now everything sounds washed out, whether movies (voices are very hard to understand) and even music in 2ch doesn't have the same clarity and seperation it used to. highs and lows are still present but everything seems muttled out by the presence of mid level tones. it all sounds like a really loud tv with tons of bass now.

any ideas what this could be from? i doubt its hearing loss i'm only 20. i realize its not the most incredible system on earth but for my age and budget its kicks ass and i'm trying to get it back up to snuff. i'd much rather repair something than replace it.

[Mr Peabody]

A lot of the time those auto set up EQ's will set your speakers to "small". When you set your receiver up manually did you check the speaker settings? "Small" is alright if your speakers are small and can't handle all the low frequencies but if you have speakers that can handle the low frequencies the sound will be fuller with them set to "large". How is your receiver set up now as it is sounding bad? It sounds like the sound is not good no matter the source, is that right, CD/DVD/tuner? If the receiver has a "bypass" to bypass the EQ or tone controls you might try that to see if that helps. If so, you probably just need to do some tweaking. I have yet to find a person who was happy with the set up the auto set up feature does.

I used to not think they were necessary but I was surprised at how much a SPL meter can help your set up. The SPL meter makes sure all your speakers are at the same level, even the sub.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

correct, it sounds the same on every source. i haven't used to auto eq since it was having problems with the center, my fronts are set to large and so initially was my center which i recently set to small and that helped some even tho its not really a small center, or at least i don't think. i'm assuming tone-out is the eq bypass, correct? sounds much worse that way. i'm thinking of reseting the receiver again to see what happens.

the second sub is a new addition to try and balance out the bass throughout the room, is it possible that the extra bass might be crowding the room and giving that muddled sound, they're only set to 60hz so i wouldn't think so but i figured i'd ask anyway.

i guess i should get my hearing checked to hopefully rule that out

also thanx for the help, none of my friends have an ear for music

[Mr Peabody]

Even though your subs are set to 60Hz they can still mess up your response if their level is too loud. Also, two subs can cause peaks or dips at certain frequencies due to room interaction. You can try playing with the placement of the subs to see if that helps.

How do you have the subs hooked to the receiver?

Most subs in a HT set up you bypass the crossover on the sub or turn it all the way up then use the crossover in the receiver.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

the subs are mono for lfe+LR via RCA a splitter, one next to the left front in a corner and the other next to the right front against one wall. i'll try adjusting the crossover for the sub from the receiver instead

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

i unplugged the new sub, made a huge difference, now i just gotta find a good place to put it that will help even out the room as well as the last position did

[RoadRunner6]

You don't mention what speakers you have but in most cases all your speakers should be set to small and crossed over at 80Hz or not much lower depending on their bass extention. 40 Hz is way too low! Let the subs do the low bass and the LFE bass. The amp in the sub will drive this lower bass much better than your main speakers will with the HK receiver. Just to make sure there is nothing wrong with your center channel signal or speaker, swap the left and center channel temporarily to check it out. Do you still hear the same problem with the center channel signal now coming thru the left speaker? You have muddy bass because you are trying to drive your main speakers way too low. Your mains are probably causing audible standing waves below 80Hz which cause big bass response peaks. Subs are for taking over the bass below 80z not augmenting it.

As Mr. Peabody says be sure the receiver is handling the crossover function and the subs are set at "bypass" or if there is no bypass switch or setting then set the sub at its highest crossover setting. Otherwise you are "cascading the crossover filters" (doubling them).

Doesn't make any difference if you have tower speakers. Try setting all 5 or 7 speakers to small and the crossover to 80z. You will hear the bass become much more detailed and clean with much lower distortion. Your center and main speakers are causing much higher distortion at 40-80Hz than your sub will. Try using a manual setting for the speaker setup with a Radio Shack analog meter (not the digital model). This is much more accurate than your ear. Some of those auto set-up functions make lots of errors.

RR6

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

my fronts are jbl stadiums, three way with 4.25 mid driver and two 8'' woofers if you're not familiar with them. i have connected one of them as as a center before as you had suggested, a little clearer but not much difference, my guess because they are a three way versus two so slightly better dialogue but still clouded. i will be sure to set my crossovers higher, thanx for the help.

also mr p suggested to make sure the fronts were set to large whereas you suggested to not. if i'm setting the crossovers manually what exactly is changing when setting them large or not?

another note i only use the auto eq to set the delay and get a starting point for speaker volumes but thats it.

[RoadRunner6]

It's easy to look up the specs as long as you give us the brand and model numbers. We need to know about your center and surround speakers and your subs also, brands and model numbers please. Hopefully, your center and surrounds are also from the JBL Venue series.

Looks like Mr. P. and I might have a different view on this one. Anyway, I'll give you my detailed opinion and explanation when you identify your other speakers.

As for now, I stand by my opinion that the all your speakers including the Stadiums should be set to small.

One other question, is your HK receiver restricted to the same sub crossover point for all the speakers, I presume it is. Are the points every 20 Hz like, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, etc.? This info is in your manual.

RR6

[Mr Peabody]

In some receivers when set to large you can't use the receiver's crossovers. I'd think a tower with two 8's should be able to handle 40Hz. I personally have my towers set to "large". There's really no right/wrong answer as to how you set the speakers, unless using small speakers that obviously can't handle low frequencies. It's a matter of room size and acoustics, and your system. Set to small will take some strain off the HK's internal amps and therefore could improve clarity by lessoning distortion and providing more headroom. Setting the center to small could improve dialog, a lot depends on the placement. Sometimes when the center is on certain shelves too much bass can cause a booming effect. You could try setting the mains to "large" and the center/rears to "small". Also, when you set your speakers to "small" you may have an option of where to direct the low frequencies being crossed out, "sub" or "sub & mains" or "mains". If this choice is given I'd recommend sending the bass to sub only. To make things even more difficult you'll find what you like for HT isn't going to work for music.

What works for one person's system may not work for some one else's. A system set up requires some experimenting to see what works best.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

my center and surrounds are also from the JBL venue series, JBL voice for the center and balcony for the rears. subs are both velodyne DPS-10's. so far i am getting the best results with the fronts set to large and everything else set to small.

i don't have the choice of sending bass to sub only, the sub crossover works by selecting which speakers to match it up with
(all the speaker crossovers are in 20hz intervals) and right now the subs are set with the fronts at 80hz.

i'm less concerned with the HT sound than music. if movies have to sacrifice than so be it. that said even with music the voices sound horrible, like they're singing into a can.

other than the second sub i've had this set up for over a year now and it never sounded this way until recently. i'm in college and i'm in a new house every year, maybe its just the room i have it in

[Mr Peabody]

Have you checked to see if you might have some sound mode on that is causing that problem? When you hook the system up, you do make sure the red (+) is to red (+) and same with black (-)?

The room makes a difference but it shouldn't to the extreme you are experiencing. If it doesn't turn out to be a setting you might want to have the receiver checked.

[RoadRunner6]

I think you have your sub hooked up wrong from what you say. You should not be using speaker wires to the sub and then onto the speakers. You connect the receiver sub pre out RCA jack to the sub RCA input only. Use a regular RCA phono plug in the proper length or sub cable. You can use a RCA "Y" connector to split the sub out signal and then on to the two subs, either L or R (LFE) input on the sub is fine. All five speakers should be connected to the receiver with speaker wire (not to the sub...no speakers are connected to the sub!).

Set the sub crossover control in the recevier menu to 80Hz. Set all speakers in the speakers setup menu to "small." The small setting redirects all bass that would normally go the five speakers on to the sub where it belongs. The reason is that the lowest octave of bass for your speakers is from about 40-80Hz. The Stadiums (and the other three speakers) reproduces this bass at a higher rate of distortion than the sub does. The sub is optimized to repreduce this low bass as its only function. Its dedictated power amp is much better suited to reproduce this bass than the amp in the receiver. Now the amp in the receiver is only requried to drive the 5 speakers from 80Hz and above, a much easier load on the recevier. When you try to have the bass playing thru both the subs and the Stadiums you muddy the bass up with the higher distorted and maybe out of phase bass from the Stadiums.

On the sub set the low-pass control knob to the far counter-clockwise setting. It should be shown as "direct" on your DPS-10 subs. This is the correct setting, because you are not using the crossover on the sub, but the crossover on the receiver only. This "direct" setting is what is usually marked as "bypass" on most subs. You are in fact bypassing the crossover on the sub and using the crossover on the receiver. The DSP setting on the top should be left at "Jazz/Classical" as this according to Audioholics gives the flattest frequency response for the sub. Put the volume buttons in the medium or slightly lower range and leave it there. Then adjust the volume for the sub from the sub volume control in the receiver only. This is the correct way to set up your system. It will give your 5 speakers the job of reproducing 80Hz and up with clean low distortion sound while blending with the subs that will be handling from 80Hz on down to slightly below 30Hz for those JBL subs.

The best way to set the speaker volumes in your setup procedure is to use a Radio Shack analog sound meter, $45 at RS (do not get the digital model). The meter is used instead of your ear to set the volume of all speakers and the sub. It is much more accurate than your ear. Later if you want you can turn up the sub volume slightly for movie soundtracks. It you want to set the subs by ear then do this. Turn on music with lots of low bass. Turn up the volume on the sub (in the receiver only) just until you are aware of the sound from the sub. Then turn the sub down ever so slightly. This will be a good level for the sub for music, a little higher for movies if you like. If your HK receiver has an auto setup mode it very likely will make mistakes and set the Stadiums to large and the crossover to the wrong frequency. This is very common as these auto setup functions in the lower priced receivers are not so good. Over-ride its settings by using the manual mode.

There is a lot of controversy about the large versus small question. However, I think this will give you superior clean bass, without the boom and muddy sound when you are also sending the low bass thru the stadiums which would be what you would hear if you use the "large" setting. These quotes below agree and are well stated. This is also the THX recommended method.

I am borrowing some words here from an article at Ecoustics.com: (this says it better than I can and I'm in a hurry)

".....Avoid setting your speakers, even if they are towers, to the "large" setting in your receiver's setup menus.

Receivers and preamp/processors typically have two settings for your speakers: "small" and "large." You need to get past what these words actually mean in English, as they are a very poor choice for this feature of a processor. This setting actually has nothing to do with the size of the speakers, and everything to do with the range of the speakers. This setting determines when low frequencies are diverted from your front speakers and into your subwoofer (the crossover frequency). In other words, it has a tremendous effect on the bass you'll hear in movie soundtracks.

Very few speakers should actually use the "large" setting. Even most of the big, powered towers should not be used with the "large" setting because they can't produce these low frequencies (or they produce them without power and depth). What you should be thinking is that "large" means you have a truly full-range speaker; use "small" for everything else. If your speaker can't put out more than 100dB at 20 Hz, set it to "small."

There are three main reasons for avoiding the "large" setting. The first is that crossovers aren't brick walls; they have slopes in both directions. The rule of thumb is that with typical bass management crossovers, your speaker should be flat to 1 octave below the crossover point. So, with an 80-Hz crossover point, your speaker should be flat to 40 Hz. Lots of speakers can do this. Only a few speakers are flat to 30 Hz (even though manufacturers' specs will try to tell you otherwise, there really are only a few, at least within a reasonable price range), and even fewer speakers are flat to 20 Hz (and below) at the levels a home theater will be asking for. The large setting on a receiver doesn't filter any low frequencies from a speaker to the sub. If the speaker isn't capable of the really low frequencies, they simply will be lost. Set to "small," however, these low frequencies will be filtered out and passed to the subwoofer, which is capable of reproducing them.

The second reason for using the "small" setting is that when you relieve a speaker of low bass duties, that speaker becomes a much easier load for your amp, and the midrange quality of the speaker often improves. The third reason for using the "small" setting is that bass frequencies have the greatest interaction problems with a room. Multiple sources of low bass in non-optimal places cause all sorts of sound wave problems. The best place for your main speakers is almost never the best place from which to produce low bass. Being able to produce all the bass from one spot in the room gives you the best chance of optimizing your room's bass response.

A final thing to note is you have to be wary of processors that allow you to set different crossover points for different speakers. With the exception of some very high-end processors, you should not use this feature. The vast majority of processors with this "feature" high-pass each speaker's signal at the frequency you specify, and send it to the speaker. This is good. However, to feed the sub, the processor will sum the full-range signals from all the full-range channels and the LFE channel, and then low-pass this signal at the lowest crossover point you set. So, if you have your surround crossover set to 100 Hz and your main crossover set to 40 Hz, there will be a 60-Hz hole in your surround channels' responses. This is not good. THX chose 80 Hz as its bass management crossover point for a reason; trust their research and experimentation...."

Also from Thomas Norton at HT Magazine:

".....In fact, just because some of your speakers are full range, with very good bass response, doesn't necessarily mean that you must designate them as Large, or even that this will be the best choice, if you have a subwoofer. You can select Small for them also, and let the subwoofer handle all the deep bass—a setup I generally prefer. Even speakers offering more than sufficient bass for music can be overloaded with the bass from action soundtracks played back at high levels...."

For sub placement go to www.axiomaudio.com and check in their "articles" section. Hunt for their guide for setting up more than one sub. Also check for the "crawl method" on how to best place subs. I would recommend for the cleanest sounding bass keep the subs slightly away from corners or against walls. 3"-12" or more away will give slighlty less volume but usually more defined bass. Good locations for two subs besides both at the front walls are: one in front of room and one in back (or behind main listening seat), one on each side of the room, one in opoposite corners (out slighly).

RR6 (Man am I long winded or what?) :biggrin5:

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

i do have my subs hooked up via RCA, using a y-splitter and with the crossover on the sub set to direct. my fronts don't sound as good set to small but i may just need to mess with the eq settings (ie: bass,treble). those quotes were very helpful.

all the speakers are hooked up properly (i'm a rook for tuning my system but i still know how to hook everything up, but thanx for checkin anyway) and i am using the receiver's crossover settings for the subs, my post may have been confusing because the HK has a strange method for the sub crossover, it doesn't say 20hz, 40hz, ect it gives the option of "fronts, surround, surround back, center". my assumption is if set to fronts the LPF for the sub will be the same as the HPF for the fronts, in this case 80hz

the subs, well sub, since starting the forum i've had one sub go out on me, have been set to jazz/classical except for when watching movies

[Mr Peabody]

You might want to see if your manual explains how the receiver treats the bass from the speakers when set to "small". If it doesn't direct it to the sub you are better off running the mains at "large". Sometimes the low frequencies blend better or less localized if mains are set to "large" as well. I'm not disputing the posted comments but I think they were a bit strong in saying one should never set their speakers to large. It really depends on the system. The advice may be the best thing for receivers, and even with that unless the receiver has a power supply too small or running speakers that is a difficult load I don't see why not to run "large" if it improves the sound.

As an example my brother had an entry level Denon receiver, Infinity Kappa 7's for mains and a Kappa center. The 7's had 12" drivers that played very low. He had a 10" powered Infinity sub. Even though those 7's were I'm sure a challenge for the receiver if pushed, it would have been crazy to send all the bass to a single 10" when the mains had two 12's.

Me personally, my speakers play very low and handled 250 wpc of Krell power, I don't think I have to worry about them being set to "large". If it improved the sound some how I would.

[hydroman]

I have H/K as well. Sometimes if the power has gone out the settings are lost. Once you have settings you like (see above for good advice!) - write them down. You may need to re-set them. A minor annoyance to me. Other than that, the H/K rox!!

[O'Shag]

From what you describe, it sounds like there is a problem, either with the reciever itself, or the wiring. I don't think that using manual eq as opposed to auto eq should make a huge difference - other that the speaker levels being out of whack. Make sure that anywhere in the chain there are no wires crossing over or touching (positive to negative), this can sometimes have the effect you describe (besides being disastrous for your amp in the long run) - so check the wiring first. If its not the wire, and the sound is definitely wrong, then it is likely something awry with the receiver I would guess.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

off topic to the rest of my thread but i have recently purchased a monster power HTS 1000, since then both of my subs have had amp problems, they provide power but there is a continuous humming whenever the sub is powered on and has an RCA connected, whether the RCA is connected to a source or not, i've switched out cables, tried different wall outlets and my only guess is its something wrong with the power center, i'm out three amps (one replacement also dead) so i'm a little frustrated as you might imagine.

Is this a common problem?

oh and everything is sounding much better, but question for hydroman, i know the HK will do different bass/treble levels for every source, is it also the same for speaker levels, it seems i tune one thing out and the minute i switch to a different input its all different and i have to do it again. i have experienced the problem with power loss but this is without even turning the receiver off

[O'Shag]

Sounds like a grounding problem.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd have to say that blowing amps is not a common occurance from using power conditioners. Were the subs plugged into the HTS-1000? If so, you should contact Monster on this issue. I'm not familiar with that product but sometimes a multi outlet unit will have certain outlets designated for certain components, like just for digital and may contain special filtering just for that. Some may be "no current limiting" and these should be used for amps. If the subs have a typical amp, no digital, and they were plugged into an outlet that dramatically limited current and the subs were being pushed, there could be potential for damage. Obviously there's a problem and one might think the electrical supply except for the fact that it's only your amps that are effected.

What all is plugged into the HTS-1000? If your receiver is and this unit does limit current it could very well be the reason for your bad sound.

[scottmtb88@yahoo.com]

i'm working with monster power now but just wanted to get some background info so i dont get screwed over.

plugged into the power center are my receiver, tv, xbox360, cable box, and the sub, only one sub was plugged into it at a time in the port designated "amp". i contacted velodyne and they said it couldn't be a problem from the power center so i plugged the other sub into the amp jack after the first one went out.

the power center is only a week old so the sound was a problem long before i got it