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3-LockBox
11-13-2008, 04:22 PM
no...not our GM (though I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down)

I saw this coming...bail one out, they all want one. And why? So they can save all those american jobs? Or so they can make sure that their middle and upper management get their 5 and 6 digit bonuses this year.
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Rich-n-Texas
11-13-2008, 05:17 PM
Like I already said, All General Motors has to do is ditch the union.

blackraven
11-13-2008, 05:33 PM
As I posted earlier. That $700 billion could have been used to provide health care to those that need it, but instead we used it to bail out rich corporate executives who have been cheating the public out of their money for years. It just goes to show that corporate America has both the Republicans and Democrat's in their pocket!
The Gov't is so screwed up, we bail out rich executives and give billions of dollars away in foreign aid and ignore our own people!

Groundbeef
11-14-2008, 04:54 AM
Alright, lets slow up a second here. I'm no Republican, and I am certainly not a fan of the bailout. HOWEVER, let's stop this nonsense that the $700 Billion is going directly into the pockets of the executives.

As unpalatable as the bailout is, the threat to both the US, and world economy is very, very real. If these large financial institutions fail, not only will those employed directly will suffer, so goes the rest of the country/world.

At this point, it is more important to stabilize the markets, rather than simply allow everything to collapse. The time for punishment will come.

kexodusc
11-14-2008, 05:48 AM
Alright, lets slow up a second here. I'm no Republican, and I am certainly not a fan of the bailout. HOWEVER, let's stop this nonsense that the $700 Billion is going directly into the pockets of the executives.

As unpalatable as the bailout is, the threat to both the US, and world economy is very, very real. If these large financial institutions fail, not only will those employed directly will suffer, so goes the rest of the country/world.

At this point, it is more important to stabilize the markets, rather than simply allow everything to collapse. The time for punishment will come.
I'm glad you said it Beef, because I was going to. Look, those execs are going to get their paycheques whether there's a bailout or not - they're not going to be any better off because of one. Corporate greed will always exist, so we better get over it and focus on cleaning up the mess we all allowed to happen. The time for pointing fingers is way behind us.

GMichael
11-14-2008, 05:53 AM
I'm glad you said it Beef, because I was going to. Look, those execs are going to get their paycheques whether there's a bailout or not - they're not going to be any better off because of one. Corporate greed will always exist, so we better get over it and focus on cleaning up the mess we all allowed to happen. The time for pointing fingers is way behind us.
Maybe so, but I'd still prefer them to send that $22B to me. Does everyone have my address?

kexodusc
11-14-2008, 06:02 AM
Maybe so, but I'd still prefer them to send that $22B to me. Does everyone have my address?
Aww man, you'd just blow all that on some killer party. And then where would we be? Divorced, hungover, and another trillion bucks in the hole...

GMichael
11-14-2008, 06:17 AM
Aww man, you'd just blow all that on some killer party. And then where would we be? Divorced, hungover, and another trillion bucks in the hole...
I'd upgrade my system like you wouldn't believe. I've already started picking things out.

On topic though, (I'm turning over a new leaf) everyone is right about this one. It's disgusting that the very people who helped put us in this mess will be the first to get bailed out. But without big business, you won't have all the medium businesses to support them. With so many people out of work, who will shop at the malls, eat at the delis, or drink at the bars? Everyone suffers when big businesses go down. But the money needs to be accounted for very closely. It can't be used for the rich to get bonuses (sorry Rich). A good chunk needs to go into designing safer, more efficient vehicles for Mr. and Mrs. average Joe. Put them back on track to stay in business on their own.
This way they can all send 10% of their income to me.:yikes:

Rich-n-Texas
11-14-2008, 07:18 AM
I'm not going to point fingers, but whenever some greed driven outfit that I do businees with tries to sell me something I don't need, raises my rates because I decide to downgrade a particular sevice, their interface people are going to get an earfull every single time. When I got disgusted with D*TV's bait-n-switch practice regarding local channel price increases I dumped them. Of course it didn't hurt that FiOS had become available, but I gave the CS rep the same treatment D*TV gave me... pure rudeness. "What goes around comes around".

blackraven
11-14-2008, 09:25 AM
So where does the bail out stop? Why don't we bail out the small business owners who have made poor financial choices or are trying to keep from going bankrupt? I understand about the implications for the world economy. But do the American people have to pay the price. My taxes are going to go up and I will have 2 kids in college costing me $32,000 per/yr and I make too much money for my kids to qualify for grants or loans. Does some one want to help me out! I was going to semi-retire in 5yrs now I have to work another 10-15yrs if my investments dont recover. Now I dont mean to come off as a winer, because I know I am gainfully employed and well off, but there are millions of people who are not!

If we are going to bail out big business, I'd like to get money back in return when the banks recover from this debacle.

And if you think things are bad now, wait until Obama tries to institute Universal Health Care. It will cost a trillion dollars to do so. I'm a physician and dating back 15yrs, there is a physician lawyer that lectures at conferences about the government and health care. He is invovled in Washington and states that the government knows there is no solution to the problem without large tax increases for everyone. And even then the quality of health care will go down. It happened in Australia when they went from a private system to a national system and it will happen here. Why do you think the Clinton's failed to reform health care?

And dont even get me started on Social Security!

GMichael
11-14-2008, 09:38 AM
Instead of a bailout, how about if the government buys $22B worth of their stock? They'll still get the money they need and when GM gets back on their feet the profits could be used to offset taxes.

Ajani
11-14-2008, 10:21 AM
Instead of a bailout, how about if the government buys $22B worth of their stock? They'll still get the money they need and when GM gets back on their feet the profits could be used to offset taxes.

That's been part of the bailout debate (whether to buy/loan/give away money)... I think that buying stock is much much much better than just giving away money (normally I'd say a loan is the safest bet, but lending money to bankrupt companies seems... ummm... risky)... I think a combination of buying stock and strict oversight to ensure that GM is not just hemorrhaging money could work out better for everyone in the longterm...

Feanor
11-14-2008, 10:46 AM
So where does the bail out stop? Why don't we bail out the small business owners who have made poor financial choices or are trying to keep from going bankrupt? I understand about the implications for the world economy. But do the American people have to pay the price. My taxes are going to go up and I will have 2 kids in college costing me $32,000 per/yr and I make too much money for my kids to qualify for grants or loans. Does some one want to help me out! I was going to semi-retire in 5yrs now I have to work another 10-15yrs if my investments dont recover. Now I dont mean to come off as a winer, because I know I am gainfully employed and well off, but there are millions of people who are not!

If we are going to bail out big business, I'd like to get money back in return when the banks recover from this debacle.

And if you think things are bad now, wait until Obama tries to institute Universal Health Care. It will cost a trillion dollars to do so. I'm a physician and dating back 15yrs, there is a physician lawyer that lectures at conferences about the government and health care. He is invovled in Washington and states that the government knows there is no solution to the problem without large tax increases for everyone. And even then the quality of health care will go down. It happened in Australia when they went from a private system to a national system and it will happen here. Why do you think the Clinton's failed to reform health care?

And dont even get me started on Social Security!

It never cease to amaze me the number of people who believe that if only their personal taxes were half what they are, the world would be perfect. :15: A very simplistic vision of world perfection I have to say.

When it comes to health care, I ask you and everyone, Do you believe that everyone ought to have the access to the essentially the same level of medically necessary health care????? If your answer is "no", realizing what you are saying is that the wealthy, healthy, or lucky deserve better health care, then end of discussion: FOAD.

Otherwise you have to consider how equal basic care is to be delivered. The rational solution is a universal, single-payer insurance system from which nobody is excluded and everyone is subject to the same rules. Such as system is not more expensive and nor does it necesarily deliver inferior health care to the people. Nor is it necessarily "socialized medicine", (not that that is necessarily as so bad -- "socialism": ooo-o-o such a big scare word in the U.S.).

Health care in Canada where we have a universal, single payer, (but not socialized), system works extremely well contrary to the exaggerations, distortions, and frank lies that are told about by self-interest medical and health industry mouth pieces south of our boarder.

Health care here in the Great White North is immeasurably better than it was back in the private medicine time before Tommy Douglas instituted universal insurance in Saskatchewan decades ago now. Douglas had to fight the doctors in the province who went on strike, alleging that doctor-patient relationship would be destroyed and other such bullsh!t; (are we talking Hyppocratic oath or a hypocritic oath?): in fact doctor & patient relationships got a lot better once the former didn't have to worry about being paid, and the latter about paying.

That the the cost of care would necessarily go up and the quality down is basically a lie. The quality of health care compares very favorably in Canada to what it is in the U.S, (of course it's vastly better people who would be uninsurable or couldn't afford it were they living in the US). It is also cheaper here on a per capita basis here then there. Yes, sometimes you have to wait a few months for a non-critical procedure. But Individual workers here don't have to be concerned to keep a lower paying job they hate just to preserve basic health benefits; nor otherwise does a family have to layout $12,000/yr which is the average cost as I hear. And employers aren't stuck with anywhere near the employee benefit costs they have State-side; (yoh! General Motors, listen up).

D/R, I expect to here from you that you have former Canadian doctor buddies redolant with tales of how horrible the Canadian system is. Believe them if you like, but they are an extremely small and very biased representation of Canadian doctors. It's true enough that doctors in some specialties can earn a lot more in some areas of the States than in Canada. OK, people like to believe that they are ethical, they like to believe they are morally justified. It salves the consciences of you buddies to believe they are down south because the Canadian system bad when in actually it is ordinary self-interest that motivated them. (No, I'm not saying your buds are lying: I'm saying they have very selective memories.)

markw
11-14-2008, 11:06 AM
no...not our GM (though I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down)

I saw this coming...bail one out, they all want one. And why? So they can save all those american jobs? Or so they can make sure that their middle and upper management get their 5 and 6 digit bonuses this year.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->Maybe I would have been more sympathetic had any one of three Oldsmobile dealers been able to find and fix the problem in my '95 88 with < 70k on it in 2001. As it stands I spent almost $100 at three GM dealers trying to get it fixed to no avail.

...and you wonder why I drive a 2004 Hyundai? 49k and no problems!

Rich-n-Texas
11-14-2008, 11:44 AM
It never cease to amaze me the number of people who believe that if only their personal taxes were half what they are, the world would be perfect. :15: A very simplistic vision of world perfection I have to say.
"Personal taxes" = Federal Income taxes, State Income taxes (in some states), property tax, sales tax. Tax on gas, tax on cigarrettes. Tax tax tax. When I lived in the Liberal northeast, I paid every one of those taxes. Quite a drain on my income, including disposable income. I was surprised when Congress allowed the stimulus package to go out to the people who needed it most, untaxed. :out:


When it comes to health care, I ask you and everyone, Do you believe that everyone ought to have the access to the essentially the same level of medically necessary health care????? If your answer is "no", realizing what you are saying is that the wealthy, healthy, or lucky deserve better health care, then end of discussion: FOAD.
My answer is yes. Above all else, healthcare administration should NOT be a *for profit* industry. I and my employer pay big money for healthcare, and then the Aetna's, Cigna's and BC/BS's of the country tell me what procedures I have will or will not be paid for, which doctors I see will be covered or not covered WITH MY MONEY!!! And why does the insurance cost so much? Ask the doctors who have to employ a staff just to fill out the paperwork, deal with all the red tape and paperwork the insurance companies stick them with...etc, and pay for malpractice insurance. Oh and how 'bout the pharmaceutical industry and the way they gouge the patient. Funny, if you drive down to Mexico you can get your prescription filled for pennies compared to what's charged here.

"FOAD" = what? Sounds French.


Otherwise you have to consider how equal basic care is to be delivered. The rational solution is a universal, single-payer insurance system from which nobody is excluded and everyone is subject to the same rules. Such as system is not more expensive and nor does it necesarily deliver inferior health care to the people. Nor is it necessarily "socialized medicine", (not that that is necessarily as so bad -- "socialism": ooo-o-o such a big scare word in the U.S.).
Isn't Canada considered a Socialist country? What did the "USSR" stand for again? Oh, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. THeir system didn't work out in the long run did it?

When I was a youngster growing up in the liberal northeast, I was taught that Socialism was baaaaad.

[quote=Feanor]Health care in Canada where we have a universal, single payer, (but not socialized), system works extremely well contrary to the exaggerations, distortions, and frank lies that are told about by self-interest medical and health industry mouth pieces south of our boarder.
"Weeell, there you go again" Feanor, bad mouthing the greatest country in the world. Shame on you.


Health care here in the Great White North is immeasurably better than it was back in the private medicine time before Tommy Douglas instituted universal insurance in Saskatchewan decades ago now. Douglas had to fight the doctors in the province who went on strike, alleging that doctor-patient relationship would be destroyed and other such bullsh!t; (are we talking Hyppocratic oath or a hypocritic oath?): in fact doctor & patient relationships got a lot better once the former didn't have to worry about being paid, and the latter about paying.
Tommy Douglas. A conservative I presume.


That the the cost of care would necessarily go up and the quality down is basically a lie. The quality of health care compares very favorably in Canada to what it is in the U.S, (of course it's vastly better people who would be uninsurable or couldn't afford it were they living in the US). It is also cheaper here on a per capita basis here then there. Yes, sometimes you have to wait a few months for a non-critical procedure. But Individual workers here don't have to be concerned to keep a lower paying job they hate just to preserve basic health benefits; nor otherwise does a family have to layout $12,000/yr which is the average cost as I hear. And employers aren't stuck with anywhere near the employee benefit costs they have State-side; (yoh! General Motors, listen up).
"vastly better people". Do you mean vastly healthier people or are you just saying Canadians are better than Americans? You MUST be french.

Define "non-critical". Is someone with a slowly developing brain tumor considered non-critical? So when the tumor becomes the size of a baseball, the person has lost all motor functions, can't feed himself, is the operation now critical?


D/R, I expect to here from you that you have former Canadian doctor buddies redolant with tales of how horrible the Canadian system is. Believe them if you like, but they are an extremely small and very biased representation of Canadian doctors. It's true enough that doctors in some specialties can earn a lot more in some areas of the States than in Canada.
That's because they're better educated in the states, thus, they're better than their Canadian counterparts, yes?

OK, people like to believe that they are ethical, they like to believe they are morally justified. It salves the consciences of you buddies to believe they are down south because the Canadian system bad when in actually it is ordinary self-interest that motivated them.
Gosh, you have such a low opinion of Americans don't you? Hey, let's go have a beer Bill Bailey!

Rich-n-Texas
11-14-2008, 11:45 AM
...and you wonder why I drive a 2004 Hyundai? 49k and no problems!
A Hyundai. Oh geeez.

(snicker snicker)

blackraven
11-14-2008, 11:50 AM
Feanor, we have a few Canadian Doctors that work in our group and while they dont say that the Canadian system is not bad, its not great either. Yes, everyone does have health care but it is rationed to the elderly, denying them potentialy life saving treatment because of their age. Now I'm not in total disagreement with this because we try and save too many nursing home patients with dementia and no quality of life because family just cant let go. Here in the US we spend hundreds of millions of dollars on these patients because legally we cant say no. This will change with universal health care. People in this country will not be happy!

You seem to have the opinion that I dont want health care for every one. Your mistaken. Do you think that I went into medicine for the money? If you do your wrong. I help people and see all comers regardless of their ability to pay. And here in the US, there is free health care. Its called the Emergency Dept. We collect 29%, in the ER. We cannot turn anyone away and we do not skimp on tests and we dont look to see if patients have insurance, its illegal!!!!!!!!!
We dont deny patient's care in any way. (try running a business where you collect only 29% of what you bill and you will see how it drives up prices). (oh, by the way, Mediacal in california reimburses doctors 10cents on the dollar, so if you do a $2K sugery you get reimbursed $200). The US government knows this and thats why there is no hurry to fix the problem. In addition here in the Twin Cities there are a few dozen free family clinics and dental clinics.

And just because the system works in Canada doesnt mean its going to be done right here. (its done poorly in Australia) You assume that the US gov't will get it right and thats a big assumption. Plus the US has something like 10x's the population of Canada.

For health care to become affordable here there needs to be many changes such as medical liability (many specialties have to pay $100,00 or more for malpractice insurance each year), product liability, limitation of resources such as not every hospital having an MRI scanner, heart cath lab etc. There needs to be regulation with Drug companies. (Why is it that drugs cost way less in Canada then here?).

And don't criticize me about my concern over taxes. College cost between $10-50,000 a year here and Medical school $20-50,000 per year (here at the University of Minnesota a state funded school, medical school costs $40K per year or $160K for 4 years. So Doctors are finishing their training in their early to mid 30's, $300,000 in debt with high interest loans. Try buying a house a new car and getting married being $300,000 in debt and then having to pay thousands a year in malpractice insurance. One of my partners is 46 and he still owes $200K and has little money put away for retirement. We also have to contend with something called the Alternative Minimum tax which now costs me several thousand a year. I used to get back about $8k and now I have to pay in about that much. So yes I am worried about more taxes which will probably reach about 50% for me at some point.

Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.

Rich-n-Texas
11-14-2008, 12:05 PM
...Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.
Tou-freakin'-che :thumbsup: D/R

Feanor
11-14-2008, 01:02 PM
...
My answer is yes. Above all else, healthcare administration should NOT be a *for profit* industry. I and my employer pay big money for healthcare, and then the Aetna's, Cigna's and BC/BS's of the country tell me what procedures I have will or will not be paid for, which doctors I see will be covered or not covered WITH MY MONEY!!! And why does the insurance cost so much? Ask the doctors who have to employ a staff just to fill out the paperwork, deal with all the red tape and paperwork the insurance companies stick them with...etc, and pay for malpractice insurance. Oh and how 'bout the pharmaceutical industry and the way they gouge the patient. Funny, if you drive down to Mexico you can get your prescription filled for pennies compared to what's charged here...
You go, Rich, now yer talking! :thumbsup: The estimate I hear was that health care administation in Canada is 1/5th of what it is the US.


...
Isn't Canada considered a Socialist country? ...
Uhhm ... no it isn't.


...
"vastly better people". Do you mean vastly healthier people ...
Indeed, I did.


...
That's because they're better educated in the states, thus, they're better than their Canadian counterparts, yes?...
But in general they're not better educated, so no.


...
Hey, let's go have a beer Bill Bailey!
Your best idea today. :yesnod:

blackraven
11-14-2008, 01:02 PM
Oh and one last point. As my taxes go up and income down, I will spend less, keep my cars longer and buy cheaper cars, take less frequent vacations and eat out alot less often. In general, I will cut back on my spending as will alot of people. Lets see how the US economy holds up when millions of people are doing the same. Its already happening here and businesses are hurting and people are losing jobs.

My daughter in College just changed her major to nursing for fear of not being able to get a job when she graduates because of the economy. At least in Nursing she will always have job opportunities.

Feanor
11-14-2008, 01:36 PM
Feanor, we have a few Canadian Doctors that work in our group and while they dont say that the Canadian system is not bad, its not great either. Yes, everyone does have health care but it is rationed to the elderly, denying them potentialy life saving treatment because of their age. ....
It's perfectly true that there is rationing of health care up here and the example you mention is plausible. But do you suppose rationing doesn't happen in the US? That is what HMOs are all about. Rationing in Canada involves are real attempt to consider fairness and the greatest good for the greatest number. But on account of the for-profit nature of HMOs, far too often its about protecting the corporation's bottom line.

I laugh too when I hear the claim that Americans have more choice in health care. Nice choice: get the medical procedure you need and loose your home and life savings, or die.


...
And don't criticize me about my concern over taxes. College cost between $10-50,000 a year here and Medical school $20-50,000 per year (here at the University of Minnesota a state funded school, medical school costs $40K per year or $160K for 4 years. So Doctors are finishing their training in their early to mid 30's, $300,000 in debt with high interest loans. Try buying a house a new car and getting married being $300,000 in debt and then having to pay thousands a year in malpractice insurance. One of my partners is 46 and he still owes $200K and has little money put away for retirement. . ...
Well, boo-hoo. I grant that a medical education is likely a bit cheaper in Canada although still plenty expensive. I guess that would be a good thing, except I supposed Candian doctors probably earn less. I not well informed about physician remuneration but I did recently hear that a starting pathologists' pay in Ontario is C$350,000 a year: doesn't sound too hard to take.

Me, I'm 63 and still working for full time for about $30k/yr (-- my nominal salary is much higher but this is what it works out to because I have to forego the pension I'd otherwise receive). I work dispite triple bypass surgery, (which cost me all of $800 by the way), painful arthritis, and failing eyesite, in order that my kids can finish their education. My daugher isn't in medical school, but her dental hygenist program did cost me $12,000 for the fall semester.


...
Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.
Hey, no prob! Glad to provide a shoulder to cry on.

markw
11-14-2008, 02:20 PM
A Hyundai. Oh geeez.

(snicker snicker)Even when I was on the prowl I never needed a fancy car to get the girls.

So, hows that Trans Am workin' out for ya?

Now that I'm an old married fart, reliability and mileage are even more important. And this car. my friend, delivers in spades.

GMichael
11-14-2008, 02:30 PM
That's got to sting a little.

Rich-n-Texas
11-14-2008, 04:22 PM
Even when I was on the prowl I never needed a fancy car to get the girls.
I didn't either. I just threw my ____ out the window. Worked great!


So, hows that Trans Am workin' out for ya?
Pretty good. 80K miles, 8 years old, no car payments for the past nearly three years and still hauls ass. Thanks!


Now that I'm an old married fart, reliability and mileage are even more important. And this car. my friend, delivers in spades.
Bet ya don't drive on the interstates too much do ya?

markw
11-14-2008, 07:13 PM
I didn't either. I just threw my ____ out the window. Worked great!Your what? Left arm?



IPretty good. 80K miles, 8 years old, no car payments for the past nearly three years and still hauls ass. Thanks!Good. I haven't made a payment since I walked out of the dealership and if donkeys are common companions there, I don't know if I really want to move to Texas. My stepson hauls his hunting dogs in a pickup. That seems a bit more practical.



IBet ya don't drive on the interstates too much do ya?Actually, I do. We have buds in Pennsy, Delaware and upstate NY. I cruise around 75 - 80, conditions permitting, and get a little over 30 mpg then. ...and no problems with the buggy, either.

Trans Ams and the like were popular in the disco days with the Tony Manetti wannabes.

blackraven
11-15-2008, 01:33 AM
Feanor, your taking me all wrong. I never said that health care in this country is better than in Canada. I think that the system is broken here and needs to be fixed. My point is that the public here is not going to like it. I think that there is going to be a 2 tier system for people that can afford private insurance and those that cannot. People that dont have pvt insurance will have to wait longer for elective procedures just like in Canada. And as for HMO's there are good one's and there are bad ones. I live in Minnesota which is a big HMO state and the medicine here is some of the best in the country. And not every one belongs to an HMO.

And you missed the boat about taxes. Universal health care will need to be funded by every one, not just people earning $250K and more. We are talking a trillion dollars for health care and 300 million people, not 30 million. That money will come from increased taxes across the board. And that means big tax increases for every one. Its not just health care that needs to be fixed. The baby boomers are getting older and will need nursing homes, assisted living and transitional care units. Most people here cant afford this. In addition, social security is running out of money. They will need to take even more out of our paychecks to increase funding so it will be there for our children.

And I am in know way asking for a shoulder to cry on or sympathy for how much I pay in taxes. And dont criticize me for making as much as I do. I come from a lower middle class family who did not own a home. I worked through HS and college and worked damn hard to get where I am now. Another 4 years med school and 3 more years specialty training in emergency medicine. Thousands of dollars in debt. I choose this path in life just as you could have. We all make our own bed and have to sleep in it. And chew on this for a moment. Doctors live shorter lives than the general public and emergency physicians live an average or 10yrs less because we work rotating shifts and the stress that is involved in the job. I work every other weekend, every other holiday, and rotate through 7 different shifts. I work under the constant threat of law suits with out the malpractice protection that Canadian doctors have ( Canadian docs can be sued but there is a limit on damages).
I work hard and like my job otherwise you would have to be nuts to do what I do. I count my blessings every day that I am gainfully employed and make the kind of money I do and that I am able to enjoy the fruits of my labor. This profession was not handed to me on a silver platter, it came from hard work, determination and my need and willingness to help others. So dont cry on my shoulder because I make more money than you do.

Sheesh, this all started because I expressed my feelings about the 700 billion dollar bail out!

Peace and no hard feelings!

thekid
11-15-2008, 04:56 AM
As a former GM employee I could go on and on about their mismanagement and short term approach to their products but the fact is that in this economy we can't let the Big 3 fail. If this was happening 2 or 3 years ago when the economy could somewhat "afford" to have 2 or 3 million people suddenly hit the unemployment rolls I'd say good riddance. Another aspect that people are forgetting in all of this is the huge number of retirees all of these companies have. Should they go under these retirees would probably overwhelm the Medicare system in several states and those costs along with the costs associated with the loss of 2-3 million jobs will far exceed the money being asked for by the Big 3.

This could be an opportunity for the government (I know this is wishful thinking,,,) to mandate the type of change in product line, management and labor that the executives of these companies have failed to implement in the last 30 years. It could be possible that having a stake in these companies in conjunction with meaningful energy policies would result in safe fuel efficient cars.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Feanor
11-15-2008, 06:00 AM
Feanor, your taking me all wrong. I never said that health care in this country is better than in Canada. I think that the system is broken here and needs to be fixed. My point is that the public here is not going to like it. I think that there is going to be a 2 tier system for people that can afford private insurance and those that cannot. People that dont have pvt insurance will have to wait longer for elective procedures just like in Canada. ...
For a start, the whole waiting list thing has grossly exaggerated.

The two-tier system is a very bad option and has been throughly reject by Canadian voters. Common sense ought to tell us that the best resource and talent will be drawn to the the "upper" tier, rendering health care inferior for the "lower" tier. This just defeats the whole concept and intent of a unversal system.

The British system tolerates private health care but in a particular way that pretty much ensure the survival of the public, universal system. In the UK you pay for your private services 100% and there are tight restrictions on the insurance you can buy to cover private costs, thus the public system isn't undermined.


...
And you missed the boat about taxes. Universal health care will need to be funded by every one, not just people earning $250K and more. We are talking a trillion dollars for health care and 300 million people, not 30 million. That money will come from increased taxes across the board. And that means big tax increases for every one. Its not just health care that needs to be fixed. The baby boomers are getting older and will need nursing homes, assisted living and transitional care units. Most people here cant afford this. In addition, social security is running out of money. They will need to take even more out of our paychecks to increase funding so it will be there for our children. ...
What? me missing the point? Not. Of course taxes will increase and for everyone, (although empolyers will have lower benefit costs), because that is indeed how the system will be paid for. But hello! understand that the total, economy-wide cost of health care is likely to go down. People will pay taxes instead of premiums.

Again, this pathological aversion to taxes and any apprehension that taxes can represent excellent value for the services provided. At the same time, the rigid dogma that governments can't do anything properly or efficiently. It's really pathetic and huge impedement to social progress in the U.S. and Canada equally.


...
And I am in know way asking for a shoulder to cry on or sympathy for how much I pay in taxes. And dont criticize me for making as much as I do.
...
I work under the constant threat of law suits with out the malpractice protection that Canadian doctors have ( Canadian docs can be sued but there is a limit on damages).
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B/R, don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge you your successful career and I'm not suggesting you haven't earned your success. I'm saying only that successful people like you ought to realize the your financial status, though earned, would not happen if you lived on a desert island, and you ought to be prepared to pay the greater share in order to continue to enjoy a healthy and just society -- on which your high incomes depend.

Where malpractice is concerned, I gather it's less of problem in Canada. In Canada there are limits on pain-and-suffering awards and no such a thing as punative awards. Also, there are restrictions on conditional remuneration for lawyers, unless I'm mistaken.

Feanor
11-15-2008, 06:12 AM
As a former GM employee I could go on and on about their mismanagement and short term approach to their products but the fact is that in this economy we can't let the Big 3 fail. If this was happening 2 or 3 years ago when the economy could somewhat "afford" to have 2 or 3 million people suddenly hit the unemployment rolls I'd say good riddance. Another aspect that people are forgetting in all of this is the huge number of retirees all of these companies have. Should they go under these retirees would probably overwhelm the Medicare system in several states and those costs along with the costs associated with those associated with the loss of 2-3 million jobs will gar exceed the money being asked for by the Big 3.

This could be an opportunity for the government (I know this is wishful thinking,,,) to mandate the type of change in product line, management and labor that the executives of these companies have failed to implement in the last 30 years. It could be possible that having a stake in these companies in conjunction with meaningful energy policies would result in safe fuel efficient cars.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

... I fear. Just can't let big employers tank at this point, though they might richly deserve it.

But government "mandates" regarding business policies? Please, that's "socialism", (per some definitions), and we all know that socialism is in the same order of depravity as murder and incest.

Ajani
11-15-2008, 08:58 AM
But government "mandates" regarding business policies? Please, that's "socialism", (per some definitions), and we all know that socialism is in the same order of depravity as murder and incest.

Socialism is baaad... What would true socialism lead to??? I'll tell you what - Star Trek!!! A universe with no money or poverty and where people chose career paths based on their interests and abilities (instead of which profession makes the most money)...

Imagine what an evil world that would be, where you are free to do the job that you really love .... and have sex with hot alien babes...

blackraven
11-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Sorry guys, especially Feanor. I hope there are no hard feelings. I broke my rule of never discussing politics with any one except family.
I hope you accept my apology for going off!

Larry

Feanor
11-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Sorry guys, especially Feanor. I hope there are no hard feelings. I broke my rule of never discussing politics with any one except family.
I hope you accept my apology for going off!

Larry

Larry, absolutely no probem for me -- nothing you've said has offended or requires apology as far as I'm concerned. I suppose I ought offer reciprocal apology: you've got it, folks.

For me civil, well-informed and well-reasoned debate is fun and instructive, not acrimonious. I don't take disagreement as a challenge to my personal worth under such circumstances. Unfortunately I do sometimes forget that others can be less thick-skinned.

OK, I'm different but I don't shy from political debate; (you might have noticed). As for religious debate, well, I'm ready but this I know fewer people can handle.

3-LockBox
11-15-2008, 02:43 PM
Universal Healthcare...fvck the Martians! I coulda sworn I started a thread about something else. I'll say again...if Canada's health care setup is so great, why are the Canadians with money continuing to seek health care down in the states (that's a fact).

Anyhoo...

Look, I realize bailing out a big comapny like GM might save a lot of jobs...but not really every job. I'm betting they get their bailout and layoff huge numbers of people anyway. I am against government bailouts to corporations that piss away money. GM is a piss-poor company and have been for decades. They don't 'get it'. They get this bailout and they'll be in hot water again in a few years cuz they stiil won't 'get it'. I'll bet you that the first things they shore up with a huge gov't bailout will be the middle and upper managment bonuses. They'll use what's left over to build factories out of the country.