Okay enough talk... Git your lazy asses out and VOTE!!!

[Worf101]

I don't care WHO or WHAT you vote for just vote. Exercise your franchise the same franchise that men and women of all races and religions have died for you to have. And whatever the outcome, may the Republic be STRONG!!!

On another sadder note. I Voted when the polls opened at 7:00 AM this morning but I've other fish to fry. One of the guys that works for me runs a logging business on the side. Yesterday morning he fell while operating a chainsaw, nearly severed his right leg. I'm off the hospital.

Respect and love Dave dearly, but I've warned him for years about logging ALONE. And of course the chaps were in the truck.

Da Worfster

[JohnMichael]

I have been serving on my county's Grand Jury and one day after we had indicted I went up and voted early. Today I have the luxury of sitting here enjoying a cup of coffee and watching the news. I have not been this excited about an election well I have never been this excited about an election. One candidate is so bright, eloquent and his values are very similar to mine. We may have a president who can and will speak to the world.

Also I would like to say to all the California residents I hope you vote against Prop. 8.

Worf I am sorry to hear about Dave's accident. I hope he recovers quickly and completely.

[Worf101]

Thanks for the love and the exercise of your franchise.

Da Worfster

[Rich-n-Texas]

I voted last Thursday but I think I'll stop by and vote again today too. :ihih:

[ForeverAutumn]

I voted three weeks ago so your reminder is a little late. But if it makes you feel better, my guy won (I know that it makes me feel better!).

So sorry to hear about your friend/co-worker. If he was out there alone, it sounds like he may be lucky just to be alive. I hope that he has a full recovery.

[GMichael]

Voted.
May the lesser of two evils win. Whoever that may be.

Sorry to read about the leg. Hope he's ok in the end.

[kexodusc]

While it remains my understanding that I could have pursued an absentee ballot - my wife and I chose to vote in our country of residence this year on principle, and I am not voting in this election.

Though the thought did enter my mind to auction our votes off on ebay...

[thekid]

Got to the polls at 5;30AM and after a 1 1/2 hour wait I was part of the record turnout they are predicting here in the Old Dominion. A proud parent moment as I watched my daughter cast her first vote!

No matter who wins it was a joy to see so many people braving the pouring rain to get out and excercise their right to vote.

Worf- Hope your friend/co-worker gets better and has a complete recovery!

[ForeverAutumn]

Cudos to you, Kid, for spending 1.5 hours in line so that you could vote. That's admirable.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but could someone explain why there is such a long line-up? Do they not have enough polls open to accomodate the population? Is there such a steady stream of people all day that lining up first thing in the morning is warranted? Or is it just that most people find that early morning fits into their schedule the best, so that there's a morning rush?

I've never experienced line-ups of more than a few minutes long to vote here, so I find this very curious.

[kexodusc]

Cudos to you, Kid, for spending 1.5 hours in line so that you could vote. That's admirable.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but could someone explain why there is such a long line-up? Do they not have enough polls open to accomodate the population? Is there such a steady stream of people all day that lining up first thing in the morning is warranted? Or is it just that most people find that early morning fits into their schedule the best, so that there's a morning rush?

I've never experienced line-ups of more than a few minutes long to vote here, so I find this very curious.

No different than anywhere else I suspect FA - depends on a lot of things - mostly time of day, population density where the polls are at, voter turnout. I don't think it's any different in most countries.

My county in NB has maybe 120,000 people and a lot of different polls, it still took us about 45 minutes to vote last month - big lineup. And that was a record low voter turnout? Oh, and it took another hour to visit all the polling stations because of someone else's errors. They didn't like me cracking jokes asking "who was winning" either...one old lady, I'm guessing she was 82 if she was a day old, gave me a tongue lashing my mother would have been proud of...:shocked:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Turnout for this election will shatter any previous records. The bigger problem is finding a voting machine that actually works! :rolleyes:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Got to the polls at 5;30AM and after a 1 1/2 hour wait I was part of the record turnout they are predicting here in the Old Dominion. A proud parent moment as I watched my daughter cast her first vote!

No matter who wins it was a joy to see so many people braving the pouring rain to get out and excercise their right to vote.

Worf- Hope your friend/co-worker gets better and has a complete recovery!
Ummm... If you have kids then you'll have to change your username here oldtimer. :D

[GMichael]

Larger turnouts generally favor the Dems. I predict that JM's choice will win.

Hey, I've got a 50/50 chance, right?

[ForeverAutumn]

No different than anywhere else I suspect FA - depends on a lot of things - mostly time of day, population density where the polls are at, voter turnout. I don't think it's any different in most countries.

My county in NB has maybe 120,000 people and a lot of different polls, it still took us about 45 minutes to vote last month - big lineup. And that was a record low voter turnout? Oh, and it took another hour to visit all the polling stations because of someone else's errors. They didn't like me cracking jokes asking "who was winning" either...one old lady, I'm guessing she was 82 if she was a day old, gave me a tongue lashing my mother would have been proud of...:shocked:

Thanks Kex. I guess maybe I'm just spoiled in my riding.

[Groundbeef]

I'm in Illinois. I voted this morning at 7:00am. I waited 3 minutes. Voted, and was out the door. I was #108. I live sorta out of the way, so we generally don't have a line out the door.

I'm just happy to vote, and urge everyone else to do it as well!

[thekid]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but could someone explain why there is such a long line-up?

At my polling place this morning I spoke to one of the voting officials while waiting. Our precinct has 4400 registered voters in it. There were 10 touchscreen machines and it took me about 3 minutes to select my candidates and I knew who I was voting for while I watched others hover over their machines for around 5 minutes.



Ummm... If you have kids then you'll have to change your username here oldtimer.

Well I think I explained my username before as one that does not belie my true age. It stems from my early basketball days where I was often picked up as "the kid" by the older players. It became a nickname that stuck for a variety of reasons and seemed like a better user name than OWGWBK........Old White Guy With Bad Knees..... :D

[RoadRunner6]

One candidate is so bright, eloquent

Wow, the nicest words I have heard anyone express about McCain!


RR6 :biggrin5:

[bobsticks]

Bully for you Worfster, great sentiments.

The last several days I've tried to avoid the internet as much as possible...haven't been fond of the tone things have taken. I'd have to add that the more I've investigated the more I've learned about each candidate which I didn't like.

This has been a very devisive campaign season and I wish the best of luck to whomever the winner may be. Hopefully the victor will be able to unite us beyond much of the strife, do some good for the folks that need it the most, do no harm, and avoid stumblings into ideological extreme.

Tall order, eh?

[3-LockBox]

I'd have to add that the more I've investigated the more I've learned about each candidate which I didn't like.

Ahhh...the lesser of two evils...

its like asking which eye you'd like poked out

[02audionoob]

This is healthy. I'll miss Tina Fey but this shows me we can try to change for the better.

[Feanor]

I don't care WHO or WHAT you vote for just vote. Exercise your franchise the same franchise that men and women of all races and religions have died for you to have. And whatever the outcome, may the Republic be STRONG!!!

...

I congradulate Americans on their turn out for the presidential election. I heard that is was the highest in many decades. Making a choice and voting is the essence of democracy -- even when the choice is for the least evil.

Higher turn out in most countries often comes from younger and poorer votes. In turn this usually means more support for left-leaning parties. I suspect that the Republicans shrewdly anticipated this trend early on. Since the Republican Party is inherently incapable offering anything of economic substance to lower income citizens, they recognized they had to appeal to more irrational motives. The selection of Sarah Palin, IMO, was an attempt to bring out what I call the "second consituency" of that party.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am stunned, proud, but still cannot get a grasp on what happened last night. America has changed, changed for the good, and I am so.....I am having such a difficult time expressing myself. I never thought in my lifetime I would see a minority, especially an African American EVER be President of this country, but it happened. And it happened with a multi-ethnic coalition, a beautiful combination of so many races, faces, and backgrounds, the true America that this is just stunning to me. I could live a lifetime, but nothing bought me more pleasure than to see my two boys cry in joy over what we witnessed last night. I like this new America, and I am going to take the day off to savor this moment in history.

[ForeverAutumn]

I can't vote in the US election but we all paid close attention to it here as what happens in the US has a strong effect on Canadians. Rightly or wrongly, sometimes what happens in the US has a greater affect on us than what is happening in our own country.

I like Obama. He's smart, he's charismatic, and he's well spoken. I believe that he will bring about change. The fact that he was elected with such strong numbers shows that Americans are ready for change. But there is a lot of pressure riding on him to now deliver that change. I truly hope that he's up to the job. Time will tell.

[ForeverAutumn]

I am stunned, proud, but still cannot get a grasp on what happened last night. America has changed, changed for the good, and I am so.....I am having such a difficult time expressing myself. I never thought in my lifetime I would see a minority, especially an African American EVER be President of this country, but it happened. And it happened with a multi-ethnic coalition, a beautiful combination of so many races, faces, and backgrounds, the true America that this is just stunning to me. I could live a lifetime, but nothing bought me more pleasure than to see my two boys cry in joy over what we witnessed last night. I like this new America, and I am going to take the day off to savor this moment in history.

I think that's beautiful.

[ForeverAutumn]

Also I would like to say to all the California residents I hope you vote against Prop. 8.

Well, I guess Americans (Californians, anyway) aren't ready to be that liberal. :nonod: So sorry JM.

[Feanor]

I am stunned, proud, but still cannot get a grasp on what happened last night. America has changed, changed for the good, and I am so.....I am having such a difficult time expressing myself. I never thought in my lifetime I would see a minority, especially an African American EVER be President of this country, but it happened. And it happened with a multi-ethnic coalition, a beautiful combination of so many races, faces, and backgrounds, the true America that this is just stunning to me. I could live a lifetime, but nothing bought me more pleasure than to see my two boys cry in joy over what we witnessed last night. I like this new America, and I am going to take the day off to savor this moment in history.

First, let me congradulate Americans also for electing their first non-white president. An individual who, IMO, clearly the appropirate choice for your country (and the world) at this time.

Some questioned whether Barak Obama was "black enough", that is, whether he sufficiently represented African Americans. As of election day African Americans have passed their judgement and, again IMO, it was the right one.

But the question was legitimate. Obama's father was African and his mother American, but did that make him "African American" in the cultural sense?? His upbringing after all was by his mother and white grandparents and largely in a white milieu during his youth. I don't doubt that through his work and wife he has sufficient insight and sympathy for "real" African Americans, yet Obama lacks the the victim and "segregated" mentality that still commonly burdens Black and other minority leaders in the US. I dare say if he had this baggage, or seemed to have it, he would not have been elected.

[Worf101]

Chite, I just lost a 500 word post. To paraphrase....

I laughed, I cried. I tried to get knee walking, pissy drunk, but being that I don't imbibe it didn't work. I thought of my dead father and mother who grew up and lived long years under the shadow and segregation and "Jim Crow", separate and unequal under the law. I also thought about the world they and all the martyrs of all races fought and died to create, the world we now have our first true glimpse of.

I was happy to see the return of the "real" John McCain. The Senator I worked for in 2000. The man I hoped would take the White House back then. His concession speech was important, as important as Obama's acceptance speech. It was a special night, and in one bold stroke, one dash for glory we have reaffirmed that our Republic, our democracy IS STRONG.

For our families, our nation and the world.

Da Worfster

[ForeverAutumn]

First, let me congradulate Americans also for electing their first non-white president. An individual who, IMO, clearly the appropirate choice for your country (and the world) at this time.

Some questioned whether Barak Obama was "black enough", that is, whether he sufficiently represented African Americans. As of election day African Americans have passed their judgement and, again IMO, it was the right one.

But the question was legitimate. Obama's father was African and his mother American, but did that make him "African American" in the cultural sense?? His upbringing after all was by his mother and white grandparents and largely in a white milieu during his youth. I don't doubt that through his work and wife he has sufficient insight and sympathy for "real" African Americans, yet Obama lacks the the victim and "segregated" mentality that still commonly burdens Black and other minority leaders in the US. I dare say if he had this baggage, or seemed to have it, he would not have been elected.

While there is no doubt that this is a step in the right direction and a historic moment in time, you know what I wish for? I wish for a world where people are recognized on their merits and are truly, truly equal. A world where there is no discussion of black, white, male, female, gay or straight. A world where our differences are welcomed and not made a point of. Where a man like Obama could win an election simply because he is a man like Obama and not a black man like Obama.

It’s naïve of me, I know. But it is my wish.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

First, let me congradulate Americans also for electing their first non-white president. An individual who, IMO, clearly the appropirate choice for your country (and the world) at this time.

Feanor, I still do not believe it happened. I rub my eyes, I pinch my skin, I am alive, but this all seems so surreal to me. The right to vote act was signed and went into law on the same month as my birthday, in the same year. Its was 43 years ago, and we have gone from that to this? Wow, no matter how you feel about America, this is just amazing.


Some questioned whether Barak Obama was "black enough", that is, whether he sufficiently represented African Americans. As of election day African Americans have passed their judgement and, again IMO, it was the right one.

Meh, any time you are mixed with something, your authenticity always comes into question. My mom is Puerto Rican, my dad mixed English and Cuban. My god parents(who had a HUGE hand in raising me) are African American. Just like Obama, I had a white grandmother who kept the whole family glued together. When I was growing up in New York, other puerto ricans and cubans didn't think I was latin enough because of my grandmother. That was until you step on my toe. Then had to listen to typical rapid fire puerto rican spanish, laced with a touch of cuban accent.


But the question was legitimate. Obama's father was African and his mother American, but did that make him "African American" in the cultural sense?? His upbringing after all was by his mother and white grandparents and largely in a white milieu during his youth. I don't doubt that through his work and wife he has sufficient insight and sympathy for "real" African Americans, yet Obama lacks the the victim and "segregated" mentality that still commonly burdens Black and other minority leaders in the US. I dare say if he had this baggage, or seemed to have it, he would not have been elected.

Being brought up by a white grandmother, in a white evironment doesn't take away who you truely are. I am a testament to that. I was raised on the upper east side of New York city. I attended a private boarding school in upstate where I was one of three minorites in the school (the other two were my twin brother, and my best friend from childhood) My grandmother ran the family. She, along with my grandfather lived with us from childhood to adult hood. I was raised like a true english gentleman, just like my father was. But I had latino happy feet, I liked to salsa. I loved Cuban and Puerto Rican food. Puerto Rican day was my favorite holiday. You can put the english in, but you cannot take the latino out. Don't think that Obama didn't have a healthy dose of blackness in his life. I am not even black(well I am dark enough to pass though), and through my god parents, i got a GOOD dose myself. I, just like Obama, am a compendium of ethnicities that make me who I am. My path may be unique, just like his, I may look at things a little differently than my hispanic brethren, just like Obama probably did, but there is no mistaken that I was latino enough, just like he is black enough.

Not all blacks have a segregated point of view, and its a mistake to think that all blacks think and act in a monolithic way. Blacks have about the same dynamic range of experiences and thought processes that all races have. Some blacks have freed themselves of the segregationist mentality, other still have it. Some white people truely see past color, others do not. Freeing ourselves of our past history is not a color thing, its a personal and people thing. I am just so glad to see that America has shook off its ugly past, and taken on a new future. That being said, at noon I am off to celebrate the new America!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

While there is no doubt that this is a step in the right direction and a historic moment in time, you know what I wish for? I wish for a world where people are recognized on their merits and are truly, truly equal. A world where there is no discussion of black, white, male, female, gay or straight. A world where our differences are welcomed and not made a point of. Where a man like Obama could win an election simply because he is a man like Obama and not a black man like Obama.

It’s naïve of me, I know. But it is my wish.

I join you in this wish, and I am sure there are millions that would join us both.

[GMichael]

While there is no doubt that this is a step in the right direction and a historic moment in time, you know what I wish for? I wish for a world where people are recognized on their merits and are truly, truly equal. A world where there is no discussion of black, white, male, female, gay or straight. A world where our differences are welcomed and not made a point of. Where a man like Obama could win an election simply because he is a man like Obama and not a black man like Obama.

It’s naïve of me, I know. But it is my wish.

I agree. We should vote for the person. Not the color, religion, sex or sexual preferences of that person. And whenever a good person is elected, we should be happy that the right person got elected instead of the right (fill in from above). We shouldn't even notice those differences.

Congrats to Obama. May he do a fine job and lead us out of the economic trend we have been in.

[JSE]

Nothing has changed yet except we have a new President Elect. It's up to him now to bring the "change" he campaigned on.

Obama has created a lot of very high expectations for many people so he has a lot to live up to. Policy aside, I hope he does not turn out to be just another typical washington politician who creates deep divides between the two parties by lending a deaf ear to the party on the other side of the aisle. Democrats and Replublicans have been so busy hating each other over the last couple decades they have forgotten to look after the well being of our country. I have seen zero signs of change in this election from our congress, senate and administration. Heard a lot of talk, so we will see. I hope Obama lives up to his word and tries to unite everyone instead of falling into the same old political crap that has been bringing this country down. I don't really see any middle ground for Obama in terms of success vs. failure. I think he will either be a huge disappointment to those who have placed such a high level of hope and expectation upon his back or he will be a huge sucess if he is actually able to bring this country back together and correct a lot of our current problems. It will be a very interesting four years. I hope he uses his power he now has in the senate and congress to pursue change that makes sense for this country and not just for his own political security. I think most Americans would respect this. This is where my biggest fear may be realized if he turns our to be just another politician who is only going to do what makes since for only his party and his party only. If he truly wants to live up to his word and if he truly wants to unite and do good for this country, he will have to think both liberally and conservatively in his policies. If he does, he can easily secure another 4 years. I am more conservative in my beliefs but I have always thought there should balance between conservative and liberal beliefs. I don't think a purely liberal or a purely conservative agenda will ever makes sense in this country. It won't work. There has to be a balance and until someone can blend the two, nothing with ever really change. I hope Obama can work toward that.

His jury has just been seated and they will be listening very closely over the next four years. I hope he makes the best of this oppportunity

Even though I did not vote for Obama and I might not agree with many of his policies and beliefs, I will support him as our President.

[Woochifer]

When Obama's victory was announced, I gave my 17-month old biracial daughter a big hug and told her that she can now truly aspire to anything. It just feels good to have hope after all the cynicism of the last decade or so.

But, Proposition 8's approval in California indicates that as a society, we still have more mountains to climb. Sadly, I think the decisive swing in that election was the Yes on 8 campaign's deliberate targeting of Latino, African-American, and Asian communities, and blanket media buys on Spanish, Chinese, and Korean language TV, which are huge in L.A. and the Bay Area. Ironic that on the day California overwhelmingly votes for the first African-American President, ethnic minority communities split their ballots to vote for eliminating another group's rights.

I am glad though that Proposition 1A, the high speed rail bond initiative passed. It will build the first true HSR system in the U.S. and cut the travel time between L.A. and San Francisco to 2.5 hours.

[trollgirl]

Yes, I voted. Went to the place I used to vote at and only found a janitor on duty. My daughter was with me, called my ex on her cell phone, the ex jumped on the internet, and relayed back to me where to go. Got there with (I think) less than five minutes to spare. By the time I got my ballot filled out, they were taking down the voting booths. I expect to enter the Kingdom by just such a margin...

Laz

[bobsticks]

I found this the other day and it seemed to encapsulate the feelings of a lot of folks I know. While I still remain very concerned about the spending potential of an uncontrolled Democratic Legislature and President, the feelings of optimism shared by some on this site and on others cannot be discounted. Hopefully, and maybe for the first time, the greatest number of citizens possible feel like this is their country...



Congratulations, Obama supporters. You did an astounding thing in the past few months, esp. here in Indiana. My John Deere hat's off to you.

I'm a McCain supporter, and though I'm disappointed in the outcome of the election last night, I'm even more disappointed in the vitriolic, hateful, racist comments being posted here under the guise of conservatism. I apologize on their behalf.

Don't be discouraged or angered by some of the ultra-right wing posts here--they are the extreme minority. While it's true that a substantial number of Americans (60 million, give or take) voted for McCain, an overwhelming majority of them are decent people who want a good country. I know a lot of them--my friends and family all voted for McCain--and I love them all.

Yes, I believe that John McCain would have made a better president that Barack Obama. But this does not mean that I disagree with all of Senator Obama's views. Pew Research had an interesting finding: 70% of McCain supporters agree with "most of Barack Obama's political platform". The statistics on race are encouraging too: anonymous internet polling found that only about 10% of voters would be influenced by the race of the candidate, and this was equally true of white and black voters.

Yes, I'm disappointed in last night's events, and many Americans are as well. But the white supremists and racists, the shop owner who won't hire any black people, the 14 words guy, the hateful, the ignorant--they are a marginal few and they do not represent the conservative perspective. They will be long gone in another generation or two, and they're not constructive contributors to our democracy. We should forget about them, and focus on how we can work together and focus on real ideas.

Though my guy lost, I firmly believe that my fiscal conservatism is a necessary component of our participatory democracy, and that it will keep your guy's tax-and-spend liberalism in check. But it is through this sort of cooperation, whoever is in power, that we'll keep this nation great.

[Mr Peabody]

Worf, you have sparked my patriotism, what day do we vote on? You can count on me. I hope that Perro guy is running again, he was the first candidate I seen use pictures. Now, that's how you reach people!

[Worf101]

Worf, you have sparked my patriotism, what day do we vote on? You can count on me. I hope that Perro guy is running again, he was the first candidate I seen use pictures. Now, that's how you reach people!
Where's the "Ban Hammer" when you need one... "Let's do the time warp again"!!!!!

If Ross hadn't been so looney, he mighta beat dollar Bill Clinton.

But to paraphrase a line from "Kingdom of Heaven".

"What does an Obama victory mean truly?"

"Nothing...... and Everything!!!"

Da Worfster

[Rich-n-Texas]

Nothing has changed yet except we have a new President Elect. It's up to him now to bring the "change" he campaigned on.

Obama has created a lot of very high expectations for many people so he has a lot to live up to. Policy aside, I hope he does not turn out to be just another typical washington politician who creates deep divides between the two parties by lending a deaf ear to the party on the other side of the aisle. Democrats and Replublicans have been so busy hating each other over the last couple decades they have forgotten to look after the well being of our country. I have seen zero signs of change in this election from our congress, senate and administration. Heard a lot of talk, so we will see. I hope Obama lives up to his word and tries to unite everyone instead of falling into the same old political crap that has been bringing this country down. I don't really see any middle ground for Obama in terms of success vs. failure. I think he will either be a huge disappointment to those who have placed such a high level of hope and expectation upon his back or he will be a huge sucess if he is actually able to bring this country back together and correct a lot of our current problems. It will be a very interesting four years. I hope he uses his power he now has in the senate and congress to pursue change that makes sense for this country and not just for his own political security. I think most Americans would respect this. This is where my biggest fear may be realized if he turns our to be just another politician who is only going to do what makes since for only his party and his party only. If he truly wants to live up to his word and if he truly wants to unite and do good for this country, he will have to think both liberally and conservatively in his policies. If he does, he can easily secure another 4 years. I am more conservative in my beliefs but I have always thought there should balance between conservative and liberal beliefs. I don't think a purely liberal or a purely conservative agenda will ever makes sense in this country. It won't work. There has to be a balance and until someone can blend the two, nothing with ever really change. I hope Obama can work toward that.

His jury has just been seated and they will be listening very closely over the next four years. I hope he makes the best of this oppportunity

Even though I did not vote for Obama and I might not agree with many of his policies and beliefs, I will support him as our President.
I'm with ya 100% dude. :thumbsup:

[GMichael]

Worf, you have sparked my patriotism, what day do we vote on? You can count on me. I hope that Perro guy is running again, he was the first candidate I seen use pictures. Now, that's how you reach people!

Maybe I should have ran.
:sosp:

[Rich-n-Texas]

You missed your calling GM. With your photo array you'd have been a shoe-in.

[GMichael]

Maybe for the Dems. But those uptight Republicans would never vote for me.:arf:

[Feanor]

...

Though my guy lost, I firmly believe that my fiscal conservatism is a necessary component of our participatory democracy, and that it will keep your guy's tax-and-spend liberalism in check. But it is through this sort of cooperation, whoever is in power, that we'll keep this nation great.

"Conservative" has two broad meanings that we may call:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatismThe terms do not overlap, except to the extent that a given individual might happen to be both. Both include a range of views of course. Hey, bobsticks, methings you are entirely a fiscal conservative.

Prior to the '70s (more or less) the Repulican Party was largely a party of fiscal conservatives, (using the term broadly). The Repulican Party was sliding into oblivion, given that the majority of voters, (correctly), perceived that fiscal conservatism really meant what is in the interest of the rich.

However some Republicans had the brainwave that they could appeal to social conservatives as well as fiscal conservatives. Thus the Reagan revolution which obliterated the traditional "southern Democrat" and lead to the party we know, (and many of us loath), today. The convenient but mostly coincidental connective between the two conservatisms is "The American Dream" mythology -- anyone can make it big in America. Of course the vast majority won't make it big, but to this evident fact is blissfully surpressed in the simple minds of Joe the Plumber and his ilke.

"Fiscal Conservatism" as the term is used today includes a spectrum of implications:

Balanced government budgets under normal circumstances -- current-day Republicans have failed this test miserably. Yes, I know: the war, but the war could and should have been avoided.
Value-driven goverment spending -- taxes are justified on the basis that they deliver value to the overall society. Most people (not all) support this in concept; it's just that they can't agree on what constitutes value.
Low government spending -- in general governments don't deliver value and/or recepients of government sponsorship are undeserving. I suppose this a doctrine might be conservative(?)
Laisser-faire -- governments should interfere only minimally in economic matters and should not protect one interest against another, e.g. labor versus managment, or domestic versus foreign production. In the early 19th century this concept was considered radical not conservative.
Anarcho-capitalist -- dog-eat-dog capitalism with no government intervention or regulation; even military and police services are contracted out. This has to be considered a radical concept even today, although the Bush administration went a long way down that road with the financial industry. We can see the consequences of that.
Right-wing protection and advancement of the interests of the wealthy and powerful -- often without regard to any of the above principles. This is certainly "conservative" in that it has to do with conserving the wealth & power to those who've already got it.I suspect that few Democats have any disagreement with points 1 & 2; after that it gets dicey.

[bobsticks]

Hey, bobsticks, methings you are entirely a fiscal conservative.

Methinks it took you long enough. I'm about personal responsibility, Feanor, not collective warm-fuzzies.



Anarcho-capitalist -- dog-eat-dog capitalism with no government intervention or regulation; even military and police services are contracted out. This has to be considered a radical concept even today, although the Bush administration went a long way down that road with the financial industry. We can see the consequences of that.

Careful with that one since the current crop of Democrats is far and away more actively responsible for the mess associated with Housing and Spending and Loan industries. On the other hand, Bush has taken some frightening steps toward a Draconian reality in military terms.

Google: "Blackwater"

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Methinks it took you long enough. I'm about personal responsibility, Feanor, not collective warm-fuzzies.

I am for both. I believe one spills over into the other. Besides, collective warm fuzzies save energy. Its natural, cozy, very touchy feely, you learn far more about people than you want to know, and its easier to sing Kumbaya with some tight harmony all up close and personal like that.





Careful with that one since the current crop of Democrats is far and away more actively responsible for the mess associated with Housing and Spending and Loan industries. On the other hand, Bush has taken some frightening steps toward a Draconian reality in military terms.

Google: "Blackwater"

You are right about Blackwater. That company is scary as hell. You are also right about the Democrats involvement in this freakin financial mess.

[bobsticks]

I believe one spills over into the other. Besides, collective warm fuzzies save energy. Its natural, cozy, very touchy feely, you learn far more about people than you want to know, and its easier to sing Kumbaya with some tight harmony all up close and personal like that.

Hey brothamang, longtime no holla.

I should have been more specific. I'm not givin' love to the collective warm-fuzzy bailouts which is a de facto redistribution of wealth...straight into the fat, rich pockets of the a-holes that made the situation occur in the first place.

Collective warm-fuzzies on an interpersonal level are a good thing although I'm still a bit leery with Rich asking me to touch his "trick knee"...

[Feanor]

I wondered if the cat had got your tongue, 'sticks.


Methinks it took you long enough. I'm about personal responsibility, Feanor, not collective warm-fuzzies. ...

The belief that a community of people can take action together for their common good does not preclude personal responsibility.



...
Careful with that one since the current crop of Democrats is far and away more actively responsible for the mess associated with Housing and Spending and Loan industries. On the other hand, Bush has taken some frightening steps toward a Draconian reality in military terms.

Google: "Blackwater"

The Democats have to take some knocks over Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac but the fact is the large majority bad mortgages were placed with other, entirely private financial companies. The whole, elaborate derivatives mess is entirely a matter of private concerns running amuck without regulation.

But the mortgage fiasco is only a part of a larger debt crisis. For more than twenty years real incomes have been declining for most of the middle and working classes in the US (and Canada). However the financial powers have seen to it the purchasing power of the people has remained high buy lending them money. In essence the wealthy in the US has choosen to lend money to the work force rather than pay them a living wage. However the economy cannot lend and borrow forever, but the day of reckoning has likely come. It's difficult to stimulate an economy when people are already up to their eye balls in debt has the new administration will shortly discover. Of course those "personally responsible", mega-finance corporations will be bailed out first.

Yes, I've heard of Blackwater. Like mercenaries throughout history they do the easy work for a wage several times that of the soldier in the national army. Were it not for the effing stupidity of Bush/Cheney war profiteers like Blackwater and Haliburton won't be looting the national treasury and driving the nation, along with most of its citizens into huge debt. Oh but wait: Cheney was CEO of Haliburton -- strange coincidence.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey brothamang, longtime no holla.

Wazzup big dawg?


I should have been more specific. I'm not givin' love to the collective warm-fuzzy bailouts which is a de facto redistribution of wealth...straight into the fat, rich pockets of the a-holes that made the situation occur in the first place.

I gotcha the first round, and I totally agree. I don't mind a bailout if it goes to the folks that need it most. But what we are seeing here is the fat cats muscling in to get their grubby paws on my money, and it really does make me want to do something ugly.


Collective warm-fuzzies on an interpersonal level are a good thing although I'm still a bit leery with Rich asking me to touch his "trick knee"...

Maybe the knee will disappear, or he'll pull a rabbit out of it. But I must admit, I would be leery too. But I wouldn't mind patting him nicely on the head and offering him an eskimo pie.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"I like pie".