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nightflier
11-03-2008, 04:15 PM
We were in the middle of watching a movie last night when suddenly we heard a loud pop after which all five of my speakers' tweeters were buzzing and not producing any more sound. The subwoofers were also not producing any more sound. After the requisite fit and cursing episode, I cleared everyone out of the room, calmed down and started to check everything. I swapped out components one by one and found to my (fortunate) surprise that my speakers were fine, the subs were also fine, and that even the amp was fine.

What was not fine was the Outlaw 970 pre/pro. It now distorts horribly when the volume reaches even normal listening levels (lower than a my voice when speaking) or the frequency goes lower than mid-bass or higher than mid-treble. I tried it with several different speakers with the same results in both 2-channel and surround formats. I also fiddled with the OSD settings and everything else I could think of, but it's still jacked up.

When the pop occurred, we were watching a low-key comedy (with no excessively loud or sudden sounds) and we were playing the system at a rather low volume because the kids were asleep. The pop however, mostly heard in the subs, scared the bejeesus out of everyone. It shook the floor and sounded like a car crashed into the house behind us - it was incredibly loud. The buzzing of the tweeters came on instantly afterward and continued even when I swapped amps and repeated on-/offs, until I swapped out the pre/pro with a 2-channel preamp. I think what saved the speakers was that I had set them to small at 60Hz cross-over (I usually run them as large). Of course my subs took the biggest hit, but I think they are still OK. I'll check them on my 2-channel system when I have more time.

Now I've logged a trouble ticket with Outlaw, and I'm still under the warranty I think, so I'll be sending that sucker back, but what do you think?

Mr Peabody
11-03-2008, 08:05 PM
That's a bummer. No idea what it could have been. Did you smell smoke? Did the system have plenty of ventilation, notice assessive heat?

Hey, still got my 31.7 for sale.

pixelthis
11-03-2008, 11:46 PM
JUST a wildass guess pulled outta my wildass guess bag, but a capacitor might have discharged after shorting out.
Even if it didnt hurt anything else, it being bad (if it was in the direct audio chain) would screw up the response curve something
awful.
When a Cap goes bad it can sometimes make a huge sound, depends on where it is in the processing chain.
This is from it discharging all at once.
CAPS are still a weak link in reliability, the insulator and foil can go anytime.
Sorry, heres something to make you feel better:1:

kexodusc
11-04-2008, 05:21 AM
Yeah, odds are it was a cap popping. I had a similar experience with a Harman Kardon integrated amp and it was a cap - thing melted onto the PCB and made a mess inside.

There's a lot of caps in a processor, and even a 99.9% reliability rating exposes equipment to some risk.

Sorry to ear about your frustration - the real test will be to see how Outlaw responds. I've heard nothing but good things about their support so I'm sure you'll be looked after.

Rich-n-Texas
11-04-2008, 05:42 AM
I NEVER like reading stories like this. I would've been shaking with fear, biting my fingernails off, creating a hangman's noose if something like that happened to me. I hope everything's okay and that Outlaw makes good with you.

pixelthis
11-05-2008, 01:03 AM
I NEVER like reading stories like this. I would've been shaking with fear, biting my fingernails off, creating a hangman's noose if something like that happened to me. I hope everything's okay and that Outlaw makes good with you.

This is why I stick to more stable video display formats like LCD
instead of less stable ones like plasma and dlp.
The best "picture quality" is HAVING A PICTURE.
Its also why I go for quality when buying stuff like amps, procs, etc.
The loss of a major componet can be devastating to those who use their gear on a regular basis, especially when you dont have "backup".
You should be "scared" rich, that chinese amp of yours has no
track record, even tho you do have a "backup".
On the bright side a busted cap is usually cheap to fix, my Yamaha
cost 58 bucks to repair.:1:

Worf101
11-05-2008, 07:15 AM
But look on the bright side, the damage was "limited". The vast majority of your system is still usable and you didn't kill any of the family in a fit of wild rage... other than that.... But like Tex, I HATE hearing stories like this. They happen, but I wish they didn't. Hope the company comes through.

Da Worfster

GMichael
11-05-2008, 11:33 AM
Have you taken it apart yet? Caps are not that hard to replace if that is the problem. They should have part numbers on them that you can get from Digi-Key or like supplier.
Our techs repaired our CEO's M&K receiver a few months back. I found the caps for about $3.00 each, so he replaced all of them.

Rich-n-Texas
11-05-2008, 11:47 AM
I'm a tech! Send it to me. I'll fix it! :yesnod:

Rich-n-Texas
11-05-2008, 11:48 AM
This is why I stick to more stable video display formats like LCD
instead of less stable ones like plasma and dlp.
The best "picture quality" is HAVING A PICTURE.
Its also why I go for quality when buying stuff like amps, procs, etc.
The loss of a major componet can be devastating to those who use their gear on a regular basis, especially when you dont have "backup".
You should be "scared" rich, that chinese amp of yours has no
track record, even tho you do have a "backup".
On the bright side a busted cap is usually cheap to fix, my Yamaha
cost 58 bucks to repair.:1:
WHAT A BONEHEAD!!! :out:

charlie_a
11-05-2008, 08:36 PM
From my experience at circuit class.

We've had numerous 1 uF caps blown from misuse from students that sounds like a little pop gun going off.
I imagine stereos to have bigger caps than that. hence the louder noise

The voltage potential between the terminals of the capacitor could have exceeded the dielectric breakdown voltage causing the capacitor to blow.

You can identify the problem if you can open the unit, and see a capacitor inflated in size with dielectric material oozing out of it. It will be discolored and inflated in size and irregular looking (looks fuc*ed).

Sometimes when capacitors blow, the top of the cap also blows clear off the body. Mostly tubular ceramic with whichever dielectric material was in it.

Perhapse shake the unit gently to see if you can hear a piece inside shaking around.

3rd though, capacitor can also be used as a low pass filter or high pass filter. but i wouldn't imagine the cap to be used as a filter to be very big, so wouldn't be that loud as you described
But i don't know the jest of how an audio system works inside. wether it amplifies the signal then sends through cap, or it is small signal going through amp.

my 1 cent.

hope the company takes care of you good.

cheers

pixelthis
11-06-2008, 12:01 AM
WHAT A BONEHEAD!!! :out:


Not enough of a "bonehead" to send anything to YOU to be "fixed".
Even if you were honestly trying to "fix" it can you expect a carpetbagger to return it?
Not that you could fix it, when you couldnt even program a harmony
remote, and I have NEVER been bonehead enough to try driving B&W
speakers with a friggin HTIB.
and YOU call ME a "bonehead. THATS RICH.
(it really is):1:

pixelthis
11-06-2008, 12:07 AM
From my experience at circuit class.

We've had numerous 1 uF caps blown from misuse from students that sounds like a little pop gun going off.
I imagine stereos to have bigger caps than that. hence the louder noise

The voltage potential between the terminals of the capacitor could have exceeded the dielectric breakdown voltage causing the capacitor to blow.

You can identify the problem if you can open the unit, and see a capacitor inflated in size with dielectric material oozing out of it. It will be discolored and inflated in size and irregular looking (looks fuc*ed).

Sometimes when capacitors blow, the top of the cap also blows clear off the body. Mostly tubular ceramic with whichever dielectric material was in it.

Perhapse shake the unit gently to see if you can hear a piece inside shaking around.

3rd though, capacitor can also be used as a low pass filter or high pass filter. but i wouldn't imagine the cap to be used as a filter to be very big, so wouldn't be that loud as you described
But i don't know the jest of how an audio system works inside. wether it amplifies the signal then sends through cap, or it is small signal going through amp.

my 1 cent.

hope the company takes care of you good.

cheers

You misunderstand.
We are not talking about a physical POP but a loud sound coming through the speakers.
If a CAP shorted it would discharge, this would translate into a kinghell
NOISE in some (BUT not all) cases.
YES in class we thought it would be "fun" to reverse polarity on a can cap, play NASA and all.
AND when it went through the supension ceiling like it was not even there, and scared the CRAP outta the girls in sewing class, it was almost worth having to pick up EVERY piece of paper dielectric.
ALMOST.:1:

pixelthis
11-06-2008, 12:10 AM
OR maybe I misunderstand.
If it was a "pop" that didnt come from teh speakers then it was almost certainly a CAP.:1:

GMichael
11-06-2008, 06:14 AM
Not enough of a "bonehead" to send anything to YOU to be "fixed".
Even if you were honestly trying to "fix" it can you expect a carpetbagger to return it?
Not that you could fix it, when you couldnt even program a harmony
remote, and I have NEVER been bonehead enough to try driving B&W
speakers with a friggin HTIB.
and YOU call ME a "bonehead. THATS RICH.
(it really is):1:


My dad was the top EE at a power house. He could take anything apart and fix it. But he still can't program his cell phone. One doesn't seem to have anything to do with the other. Maybe Rich is just too old to learn new tricks.

Sorry Rich. heh heh heh.
Don't hate me for being funny.

Rich-n-Texas
11-06-2008, 07:57 AM
I couldn't figure out the part about driving my speakers with an HTiB. Don't HTiB's come with speakers? But yeah, if I could get my hands on an Outlaw amp and it could be fixed, it would probably manage to get "lost in transit". :ihih:

That's reminds me though... I do have some questions about setting up some 880 remote functions. HEY L.J.! :biggrin5:

charlie_a
11-06-2008, 06:02 PM
You misunderstand.
W
YES in class we thought it would be "fun" to reverse polarity on a can cap, play NASA and all.
AND when it went through the supension ceiling like it was not even there, and scared the CRAP outta the girls in sewing class, it was almost worth having to pick up EVERY piece of paper dielectric.
ALMOST.:1:

Funny thing with the snapple Crackle PoP in my class is that it's the same
person doing it.

He's a sure thing. As sure as i'm going to not win the lottery from not playing it.

charlie_a
11-06-2008, 06:07 PM
off topic.
Why is it that the more i research on a HT system, the more my "limit" on my "tight" budget to spend on the system keeps RISING!@#$ frustrating reading about the beautiful sounds of expensive system and not being able to afford it, or go in big debt for it.

predicament.

pixelthis
11-07-2008, 12:42 AM
off topic.
Why is it that the more i research on a HT system, the more my "limit" on my "tight" budget to spend on the system keeps RISING!@#$ frustrating reading about the beautiful sounds of expensive system and not being able to afford it, or go in big debt for it.

predicament.

OH you big silly you!
There is a process called "bootstraping", you start out with a really nice part of a system (I prefer you start with speakers) and add
an upgrade as you go along.
Its also called an "upgrade path".
SPEAKERS ARE LONG LIVED, so start with those.
YOU CAN GET an inexpensive DD receiver to power them, just make sure it has multichannel outs.
Then a Blu player for DVD Blu-ray, and CD and you are done.
AS soon as you can afford, get a decent receiver, one with pre outs.
Then along the way get an amp.
When you have a few extra bucks get a new cable here and there.
When you get a new pair of fronts, shift the old fronts to the back,
shift teh old center to the rear back when you get a new one.
I could never have afforded all of my gear at once.
EVEN tho a tad old(my try at upgrade speakers was a disaster) my current speakers still look and sound great.
I have a new monitor, a BLU PLAYER, and an upgraded receiver ,
or amp to power my current one, is next.
My BLU PLAYER OUTPUTS MULTICHANNEL sound so I get LPCM
and my older receiver still works fine.
AND that is "how" you get a state of the art HT system, one bit at a time.:1:

pixelthis
11-07-2008, 12:46 AM
My dad was the top EE at a power house. He could take anything apart and fix it. But he still can't program his cell phone. One doesn't seem to have anything to do with the other. Maybe Rich is just too old to learn new tricks.

Sorry Rich. heh heh heh.
Don't hate me for being funny.

Which is probably true, too bad he doesnt know any old tricks:1:

REASON RICH LEFT JERSEY...

nightflier
11-10-2008, 04:20 PM
We are not talking about a physical POP but a loud sound coming through the speakers. If a CAP shorted it would discharge, this would translate into a kinghell
NOISE in some (BUT not all) cases.

The pop was definitely in the speakers, mostly the subs, and I heard nothing inside the receiver. Aside from finding out how much these can shake the house, this has been pathetic story so far.

I contacted Outlaw the same day I posted here and they responded with "needing detailed invoice info" which is code for "I sure hope that sucker is now out of warranty, bucko." But it isn't, it's actually well within the warranty, so I expect them to take it back and repair it. Of course I'll be paying for shipping to them, so it's not like this is going to be painless to me.

Regarding opening it up and taking a peek inside, I really don't want to do that because that would void the warranty. I remember when I removed the cover from my previous Outlaw amp there was a light tear sound. When I turned the cover over I noticed that a small sticker on the inside of that %^$#&@ cover tore off and there was no way to put it back w/o making it obvious I had pulled it off. So I really don't want Outlaw to come back and pull one of those "hmmmyeah, wellll, you know that Warranty Void If Removed notice on the back of your unit?..." So, no it's going back in the same way it came.

This of course, does not help me much because I certainly would like to know if the main circuit board has a big melt or burn mark on it - in which case they really should replace it rather than "repair at their discretion." But Outlaw service has always been good; I've owned a lot of Outlaw gear over the years and can say that they've been very good to me, albeit slow, sometimes taking a few days to respond. They are also on the East coast in MA so you have to get up early in the morning here on the West coast if you want to be able to respond more than once per day. BTW, they are not in Texas as the Outlaw designation and the Rodeo Cowboy logo would have one believe. Other than that they've been very helpful.

This situation does mar my plans somewhat as I was actually looking to sell the pre/pro and purchase their new HDMI one that's coming out next month, but now I'm not sure I can. I'm sure they'll repair it, but I don't want to sell a repaired unit to some poor guy down the road. And selling a "repaired" unit isn't going to get me a decent down payment on that new one, and this year's family upgrade bandwaggon is going to be traveling a tad lighter than usual.

By the way, I'm currently running the system with a B&K stereo preamp and a manual component video switcher (which fuzzes the screen when I switch - probably not a good thing either). So no surround sound for the near future, and worst of all, dialog is a pain to hear w/o a center channel. Things do sound pretty good for stereo music, though - I guess when you're always listening to sound in some surround mode, you forget how good stereo can sound. It's not anywhere near the quality of my 2-channel setup, but it's pretty good.

And worst of all, I've got Bourne Ultimatum, Apocalypto, and Blood Diamond burning a hole through my side-table. I just can't watch these w/o surround sound - that would be sacriligeous.

:mad2:

Mr Peabody
11-10-2008, 06:05 PM
Did Outlaw post a price for the new HDMI pre/pro?

Wits
11-10-2008, 06:06 PM
OH you big silly you!
There is a process called "bootstraping", you start out with a really nice part of a system (I prefer you start with speakers) and add
an upgrade as you go along.
Its also called an "upgrade path".

I couldn't find any word "bootstraping" in the dictionary, so I assumed you just made another one of your usual misspellings and meant "bootstrapping". What was even more puzzling to me, though, was when I read the definition of bootstrapping. Merriam-Webster online http://www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com) lists bootstrapping as a transitive verb that means "to promote or develop by initiative and effort with little or no assistance". Or, to paraphrase, if one were to pull ones' self up by ones' own bootstraps, that person helped his or her self accomplish a certain task or goal.

I see nothing relevant to an upgrade path, or, frankly, your point.

pixelthis
11-10-2008, 11:47 PM
I couldn't find any word "bootstraping" in the dictionary, so I assumed you just made another one of your usual misspellings and meant "bootstrapping". What was even more puzzling to me, though, was when I read the definition of bootstrapping. Merriam-Webster online http://www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com) lists bootstrapping as a transitive verb that means "to promote or develop by initiative and effort with little or no assistance". Or, to paraphrase, if one were to pull ones' self up by ones' own bootstraps, that person helped his or her self accomplish a certain task or goal.

I see nothing relevant to an upgrade path, or, frankly, your point.


YOUR LOSS.
"Bootstrapping" (however you spell it) is a tried and true way to have your cake and eat it too, you get gear you enjoy while saving up for the next improvement.
This process is not something I made up either, it has been a subject of countless articles over the years, and talk about which "upgrade path" to take has been a subject of some discusion.
Indeed, unless you throw out EVERYTHING when you buy something new , this is really the only way to go.:1:

nightflier
11-12-2008, 01:10 PM
The expected price for the new Outlaw will be $1499, with introductory prices probably around $1399 for pre-orders. Then there's Outlaw's customer loyalty program which offers a rebate of $200. So if I could have sold the previous 970 pre/pro for $400-ish (?), then my net cost would have been $799 (+ shipping, but no tax since I'm out-of-state). And that's for a pre/pro that's supposed to give the NAD & Onkyo ones a run for the money.

Of course, then there's Emotiva, which is expected to come in a bit lower in price. Anyone know when their new pre/pro is due to be out? I would love to see a comparison between it and the Outlaw before I take the plunge, but then I may loose out on the introductory price.

Rich-n-Texas
11-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Of course, then there's Emotiva, which is expected to come in a bit lower in price. Anyone know when their new pre/pro is due to be out? I would love to see a comparison between it and the Outlaw before I take the plunge, but then I may loose out on the introductory price.
Couldn't find anything on their product page, but you might find the answer in their forums: http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/index.cgi

nightflier
11-14-2008, 03:45 PM
'It's the most wonderful time of the year..." NOT!

Latest update: Outlaw is taking the pre/pro back for repairs. I've got it all boxed up and it will go out on Monday. I sure hope they won't just do a band-aid job that will just last until the warranty runs out. And I sure hope I get it back before the holidays - x-mas w/o surround sound would be hard to bear.

I did get a chance to swap some amps, though. Since I'm 2-channelling right now, I've had some time to swap out a few amps and get to know how well they do in a 2.1 HT capacity. The amp they are swapping cables with is a PS Audio GCA-MC 100, so they have some tough competition. If one of my amps does well enough, I might have to rethink things. Since I'm not doing this with any serious A/B switch-box accuracy or scientific rigor, please don't take my observations as definite conclusions. Anyhow, here's what I've tried:

- Spectron 1 amp
Yes, the ugly beast is back from the shop and it's a friggin' power-cannon. It seems faster, clearer, and stronger. I know that sounds weird because the PS Audio is no power-slouch either: it can do 200 watts w/o breaking a sweat (and I mean that literally - it never gets hot) - 400 watts if you count two channels and 1000 watts with all 5. But the Spectron has more power and control, and I can't necessarily attribute that just to the extra power because the specs on the PS Audio list it as having as much, if not more headroom and dynamic range. The PS Audio is also warmer, more musical, I suppose, but is that what I want when I'm hearing bullets fly by? Of course, the Spectron could get grating after a while too, so since I haven't done any long-term music listening, I'll make this a draw. The Spectron is definitely more clear and lively, but I'm not sure if that's what I want. One note: the Spectron is XLR-only, so I had to use RCA adapters, which could explain a whole lot or nothing at all.

- PS Audio HCA-2
OK, this is going to sound strange, but I can't make up my mind. It was warmer than the GCA by just a hair, but it also seemed more effortless. It does have an extra 25 watts, but that should be negligible. Now the HCA is getting a bit long in the tooth, and I have to think that PS Audio has improved their digital switching technology, but frankly I'm left wondering why the GCA, at a much higher price point, isn't significantly better, or at least different. The tech at PS Audio said they would be, but with these speakers, I'm not hearing it. Of course, they are from the same company, so maybe that's normal. I want to say the GCA is better, and maybe there's some reverse-psychology going on here, but right now I'll have to say it's a tie.

- Adcom GFA-7500
This was my previous work-horse. It used to blow fuses regularly, but the last time it was repaired that was fixed and it's been a good boy ever since. Still functions as a little space heater, though, and since temperatures are still hovering around 80 degrees these days, that's not a good thing - where is this winter we're supposed to be having, it's mid-November, people! That aside, 225 watts and plenty of headroom, makes it just as good, right? Nope. Not even close. Yes, it has power, but it does not have finesse. It's grating almost. At first I was thinking that it had nice clarity, but after just a short while I realized that it was irritatingly shrill. Now again, it could be the whole psychology thing or I could be getting old and not like the same thing I did years ago, but for now at least, it's not my cup of tea. Big advantage: GCA.

- B&K Reference 4420
Now for a little more power, conventional power that is, 350 watts and lotsa headroom. At first I really liked this one. It is one of those amps that I've thought about selling so many times, but every time I get up the courage, I remember how sweet it is. And I mean sweet: like toffee. It too runs hot, but not like the Adcom, and as far as sound it is the polar opposite (at least from the amps I have in house right now). It is rich and powerful, regal, almost. But then it dawned on me that while this is great for music, it's a bit much for movies. It's not as fast as the PS Audio, it's not as crisp, or clear. So while the Adcom is definitely too crisp, the Spectron may be just a tad, the GCC is just about where I like things to be. The B&K, for all it's finesse and grace, is better used elsewhere. Winner: GCA.

That's all I've had time to try. I'm actually amazed at how good the Vienna speakers have been. They definitely are neutral, if that can even be said about a pair wall-hanging aluminum of speakers. Some people have described them as being a bit harsh, but I can't say that's the case. There may be some more psychology involved in that criticism, too: since they are aluminum-encased, the suspicion would be that they are harsh and bright, but that's not at all the case to my ears. Definitely one of my best purchases and leagues above the Axiom speakers I had before (remembering that these were less than 1/3 the price).

One more note: I was using my Threshold preamp for these comparisons. Now this preamp is also one of the more analytical preamps I have ever heard. I used it especially because of that. We actually had been using a B&K preamp ever since the Outlaw pre/pro crapped out (mostly because the B&K has more features), but for testing the amps, I wanted more of a clinical sound, even if the Threshold may be a bit artificial and colored about it. So it may not be the most neutral, but it is what I needed. Granted, with that being the case, I should acknowledge that the comments about the amps above were perhaps a bit skewed towards the analytical side and thus the Adcom may actually not be as bad as I've stated. On the other hand, what does that say about the B&K?

OK, that's all for now, back to work...

nightflier
11-25-2008, 02:45 PM
I just got an email from Outlaw. They just received my pre/pro and they will be taking 3-4 weeks to fix it. That's well into the holidays... as I feared. I don't know if I can go that long w/o movies. I just received American Gangster & 3:10 to Yuma. This is messed up!

kexodusc
11-25-2008, 02:55 PM
I just got an email from Outlaw. They just received my pre/pro and they will be taking 43-4 weeks to fix it. That's well into the holidays... as I feared. I don't know if I can go that long w/o movies. I just received American Gangster & 3:10 to Yuma. This is messed up!
That really blows, NF. Not much else I can say. If it makes you feel better, I got some of my own bad news (misery loves company)...I got a letter from Epson today telling me the company they outsource the $300 mail in rebate + replacement lamp for my new projector filed for Chapter 11. But they assure me they have my best interests in mind...we'll see how this plays out. :sad:

Mr Peabody
11-25-2008, 04:56 PM
Well, unfortunately, I haven't sold my Primare 31.7 yet.

Rich-n-Texas
11-25-2008, 08:12 PM
Tough break flyboy. :sucks:

Just FYI...

My Emotiva LPA-1's... sittin' down there.. all by its lonesome... door rarely open to reveal it's "means business" atti-frickin'-tude.. like soooo many trolls here.



Ah HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!


:yikes:

pixelthis
11-25-2008, 10:14 PM
I just got an email from Outlaw. They just received my pre/pro and they will be taking 43-4 weeks to fix it. That's well into the holidays... as I feared. I don't know if I can go that long w/o movies. I just received American Gangster & 3:10 to Yuma. This is messed up!

Well, heres the solution.
Get a cheap HTIP, or a cheap receiver (which can be had for 200 bucks or less) or even better get an old used one.
You can get a stereo sherwood for 85 bucks.
Depends on how important a soundtrack is to-ya:1:

nightflier
11-26-2008, 12:35 AM
Yeah, I've considered a $50 ebay receiver but here's the rub: not every receiver can drive the Vienna speakers. I suppose I could put together something with the other speakers I have, but they are all pairs and nothing would match with one of these used as a center. All compromises really, and I just don't want to go to that much trouble for mediocre sound. Anyhow, I'd rather see these action movies in their full glory and not only do I not have the pre/pro, but I'm also sans TV, so this Friday I may just be trolling the stores at ungodly hours.

HTIB is an option, and Costco has one for $99, I think, but their return policy does not apply to HTIB systems (or receivers, for that matter). And what does this type of system sound like? I don't really think I want to find out. I guess I'll just keep hoping they get my pre/pro back before the 25th.

Of course this period of emptiness and silence, apart from being therapeutic (according to my wife), also begs for an audition. If only Emotiva had something new available. I do like the NAD pre/pro but that sucker is $2K. Even the Onkyo is still $1500. Outlaw's new pre/pro isn't out yet either and while I have friends who have receivers and pre/pros, no one has an extra one they can spare. Plenty of stereo preamps, but nothing for surround sound. I may have found someone who's willing to sell a 5-channel module for my PS Audio PCA-2 preamp, but he's asking $400 for it, and that's a bit much, I think.

Mr.P, tell me more about that Primare. I know it doesn't have HDMI, but the sound processing is pretty good, no?

nightflier
12-10-2008, 01:28 PM
According to Outlaw's repair folks there were: "four leaky capacitors found in the DSP/audio circuit." They said these have been repaired. But what does that mean, "leaky capacitors"? Is this something that I should worry about?

Mr Peabody
12-10-2008, 07:50 PM
I think so, you and the family should watch movies from here on out wearing Hazmat suits with built in 3D glasses.

pixelthis
12-11-2008, 12:23 AM
According to Outlaw's repair folks there were: "four leaky capacitors found in the DSP/audio circuit." They said these have been repaired. But what does that mean, "leaky capacitors"? Is this something that I should worry about?


Capacitors store a charge, and are used to change frequencies, filter out frequencies.
They are also used to shock the heck outta somebody , which is pretty funny if it isnt
you. Anyway theres always two plates, with something called a dielectric between them,
which is a fancy way of saying its an insulator, looks something like this...
-I I I- (THE LINE IN THE MIDDLE IS THE INSULATOR)
Anyway that insulator is sometimes a liquid, and sometimes they leak, especially when
under spec caps are used to save money, get too hot, etc.
They are the most common cause of failure these days, really.
Like I said, a bad cap(or four in this case).
Your unit should work OK , if they fixed it ok, that is.:1:

Worf101
12-11-2008, 07:55 AM
According to Outlaw's repair folks there were: "four leaky capacitors found in the DSP/audio circuit." They said these have been repaired. But what does that mean, "leaky capacitors"? Is this something that I should worry about?
Glad they found the problem, here's hoping they fix it right and you can git back to DTS living again.

Da Worfster

nightflier
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
Got a line back from Outlaw. They said that only one of the caps has a leak. and they changed out the 3 others for good measure. Sounds to me like there might have been a problem with these caps and they had other units come in with the same problem. It all sounds a little too routine to me.

On the plus side, the receiver is supposed to be on its way back and they also updated the firmware. I should also mention that they did all this for free under the warranty agreement. I only had to pay for shipping to them. And I should add that they did this a lot faster than the 3-4 weeks they said it could take (above caveat not withstanding). For service Outlaw gets an a+ from me.

That said, I'm now actively looking to upgrade the pre-pro to an HDMI-ready one. The new upcoming 997 from Outlaw at $1199, looks awfully enticing. Even Emotiva seems to be waiting on the sidelines to see what the Outlaws are up to. When & if I get my hands on it, I'll be sure to post a review.

kexodusc
12-11-2008, 03:47 PM
That said, I'm now actively looking to upgrade the pre-pro to an HDMI-ready one. The new upcoming 997 from Outlaw at $1199, looks awfully enticing. Even Emotiva seems to be waiting on the sidelines to see what the Outlaws are up to. When & if I get my hands on it, I'll be sure to post a review.

Emotiva's got 2 pre-pros of their own due out in Q1 of 2009....actually the first model is due out this month, the second is a few months later...I think they price at $699 and $999 respectively for the pre-ordered batch...additional runs will cost a bit more.

A buddy and I are tempted to try both one of each (Outlaw and Emotiva) asap and send split the shipping on the one we like less. If it takes much longer I might just buy a lower level Onkyo/Denon/Yamaha that would actually be a "downgrade" for me receiver wise, but I'll just be using it as a pre-pro. In my experience if kept in the digital realm I won't hear any depreciation in sound quality since I don't use the built in amps and don't use my tt in that system. Most of the mid range japanese receivers have been furiously upgrading DACs and video processors since my current unit was made so a step down in size isn't necessarily a step down in quality in processing...the amps are a bit weak though. I've got more devices than inputs and my patience is wearing thin. We'll see in a few more weeks. I'd prefer to go with Outlaw or Emotiva this time around.

Anthem wants too much money for blue sky now and I can't find an Arcam or Rotel pre-pro round here to try in my home :(
I did not like the Integra at all for the money, I would just as soon buy the big Onkyo receiver...not sure what the love in for Integra is all about...

Oh, and glad to know Outlaw looked after you...

Mr Peabody
12-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Kex, are you wanting HDMI? If it's not necessary I still have my Primare I'm looking to give some one a deal on.

kexodusc
12-12-2008, 05:17 AM
Kex, are you wanting HDMI? If it's not necessary I still have my Primare I'm looking to give some one a deal on.
Yes, it's absolutely critical now, fewer inputs than I have devices... and the mess of cables hidden behind the built in rack in my front wall is attrocious. HDMI was part of the plan when I built the place. The limited inputs on the projector was a no-brain compromise I was willing to make to save $800 on the projector but damn it's getting annoying. I need a receiver/processor with a at least 3 HDMI inputs and some component video inputs as well...

Audiogon or ebay that thing shortly after Christmas when people have gift money to blow, then treat yourself to something nice.

nightflier
12-12-2008, 11:57 AM
Kex, I'll be very interested in hearing your input on the Emotiva / Outlaw comparison. My guess is that the Outlaw will win on sound, but again fall short on features. It's also a whole lot more expensive. Just to get the figures straight:

The Outlaw 997 will cost $1399. Previous Outlaw owners get a $200 discount. If I can sell my 970 for $250-ish, my final cost will be $949. Of course with shipping that will be another $60, so right around $1K.

The Emotiva at $999 will be the same cost, and the lower-end model will be a substantial savings. So if money is going to be real tight this Spring (and from all indications it might be), then I'll have to settle for the $699 model instead, although I don't know what I'll be giving up with that.

By the way, does Emotiva offer a previous owner discount?

Mr. P. What model of the Primare do you have? What are your thoughts on using that with a good HDMI switchbox?

kexodusc
12-12-2008, 12:34 PM
Kex, I'll be very interested in hearing your input on the Emotiva / Outlaw comparison. My guess is that the Outlaw will win on sound, but again fall short on features. It's also a whole lot more expensive. Just to get the figures straight:

The Outlaw 997 will cost $1399. Previous Outlaw owners get a $200 discount. If I can sell my 970 for $250-ish, my final cost will be $949. Of course with shipping that will be another $60, so right around $1K.

The Emotiva at $999 will be the same cost, and the lower-end model will be a substantial savings. So if money is going to be real tight this Spring (and from all indications it might be), then I'll have to settle for the $699 model instead, although I don't know what I'll be giving up with that.

By the way, does Emotiva offer a previous owner discount?

Mr. P. What model of the Primare do you have? What are your thoughts on using that with a good HDMI switchbox?

Yeah I can't wait either. I confess, I'm sort of expecting any Emotiva pre/pro to jive better with the Emotiva amp I have, putting an Outlaw at a disadvantage, but that may not be the case. So bear in mind my judgement will have that bias built in.

Emotiva offers a 40% discount to previous owners of pre-pros which probably equates to the $200 from Outlaw. Those are both good deals, I won't get it this time around from either, maybe next. Sounds like a lot but according to some 40% wouldn't even be the full mark-up from pre-pros from the usual suspects. I think the online-retail model has some huge pricing advantages to boot...
There's a few guys on the AVS and Emotiva forums that have owned both Outlaw and Emotiva pre-pros and sound wise, well, any difference would be more attributable to fanboyism than reality. The guys that traded in for Emotiva prefer Emotiva's sound and vice-versa. So no consensus. No horror stories of one being "so much worse" than the other either. I'll find out for myself hopefully.

To be honest, I don't expect Outlaw will make a noticeably better sounding unit based on what I know of the 997 so far, it may have a certain tonal presentation that lends to subjective sound preference for many buyers, but objective superiority, I doubt it. The previous Emo pre-pros have online reviews from the usual suspects that glow just as much as Outlaw's have.

The only real advantage or feature of interest that I feel Outlaw has that I'd care about is that Trinnov system which may or may not be worth the price difference. The $699 Emo will not have XLR connections to reduce cost, as well as a few other tertiary features, but that's the big one. I can live with that, and don't really think paying a few hundred to upgrade is worth the money in my HT. I know some people wouldn't buy gear without XLR now.

Outlaw made the decision to switch to TI as I recall, after early designs were made. That sudden compromise has many Outlaw fanboys scared, but not me. This was because of all the delays TI and Cirrus had that affected the whole industry. There's been plenty of time for Outlaw to work around that major change and I'm sure their product will be solid.

Would have been cool if they both used Cirrus Logic chips. I've heard units with chips from both companies in them and my ultimate conclusion is that the chip itself has less to do with SQ than some would have you believe - they both sound pretty good.

Both of these companies had a few technical/software issues in there last generation of pre/pros that both claim to have learned from so no advantage there. Emotiva probably has a price advantage in their business model since they own their manufacturing facilities rather than rely on outsourcing, but that's not a given. They are however pricing their stuff more like Outlaw used to have to do like 3-5 years ago when they were newer on the block and still building their name. Outlaw has slowly and successfully been raising their prices the last few years, for the most part I think their enjoying brand loyalty with former customers.

I was really hoping both companies would have them out by now. There's a good chance the Emotiva unit will be out before Outlaw's is and I'll have that in my home to decide if I want to keep or not. I'll only have my current Yammie and my Rotel gear to compare SQ wise if that's the case...For $1000 or under I'm not asking for the world in SQ (and my system already sounds pretty damn good anyway)...BUT..if it's not significantly better sounding than my receiver, it's going back and I'll save my money and buy one of those mid size Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc unless Outlaw's are out shortly after.

We'll see...

pixelthis
12-12-2008, 02:09 PM
The new outlaw will be a rebadged SHERWOOD, so you might want to check their version out.
One thing of note, its really nice that the price of a decent pre-pro seems to be dropping,
you used to have to pay several thousand dollars for one.
A good sign!:1:

nightflier
12-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Well another plus for Outlaw is the configurability (independent cross-overs and a few other digital processing items) that the other guys didn't include in that price range. I don't know if Emotiva has the same granularity or whether they offer others that might tip the balance. The Trinnov is definitely a plus for getting new customers as that would let newbies get very decent sound just from letting the receiver do most of the work (kind of like the Anthems but w/o the high price-point).

Pix, Sherwood has been sourcing their units from the Asian B2B manufacturer as Outlaw for a while, but there have been differences with previous models between the companies (e.g. Sherwood never went down the DVI path). It's my understanding that the next Sherwood pre/pro that will follow the P965 will not have the Trinnov option and is also not slated to be released for a while longer than either the Outlaw and Emotiva units ship.

I read that the the Trinnov config included with the Outlaw will even give the NAD T175 with it's Audyssey config, a run for the money. At $700 less, that's a tall order. I know someone who owns the NAD, and I'm trying to figure out a good way to run a comparison when I finally do get the Outlaw. Well that is, if I get it. Actually, I'm kind of hoping Emotiva and Outlaw drive down the price of these others, like NAD. It really irks me that they sell receivers with all the same features for less than the pre/pros. I suspect that the markup isn't justified.

Mr Peabody
12-12-2008, 08:42 PM
NF, my Primare is the 31.7, the one I had previously in my signature. It originally retailed at $4k. If some one used a good switcher with an auto switch feature like the Oppo it would be a good set up for HDMI. The 31.7 only has one set of 7.1 analog inputs so if you have SACD and Blu-ray it may not suit your purpose. Anyone going Blu-ray should take full advantage of the HD audio tracks in one fashion or another. The 31.7 is significantly better sounding than a receiver. I've had it on Audiogon a couple times but I guess the timing was wrong.

It's crazy to pay extra for XLR because they aren't the true circuits in most imstances any way. Unless you had an amp that didn't accept RCA.

More than one brand can be built in a factory and have nothing in common. Just because Sherwood and Outlaw come out the same door don't mean they are inbread. Conrad Johnson also builds McCormack and they are about as different as brands can be.

kexodusc
12-13-2008, 04:01 AM
Well another plus for Outlaw is the configurability (independent cross-overs and a few other digital processing items) that the other guys didn't include in that price range. I don't know if Emotiva has the same granularity or whether they offer others that might tip the balance.
Lol...you know I'm not new to this stuff, and even I'm not sure exactly what you mean by independent crossovers? For each channel? More than one sub?


The Trinnov is definitely a plus for getting new customers as that would let newbies get very decent sound just from letting the receiver do most of the work (kind of like the Anthems but w/o the high price-point).
If it works like it's suppose to it'll be one super sweet feature for noobs and vets alike.

The Emotiva units will have their own auto setup and fully user configurable eq but it's not quite as sophisticated as the thole Trinnov system I don't think. Some people won't care for auto anything on these units, but that's their loss IMO.

[QUOTE]Pix, Sherwood has been sourcing their units from the Asian B2B manufacturer as Outlaw for a while, but there have been differences with previous models between the companies (e.g. Sherwood never went down the DVI path). It's my understanding that the next Sherwood pre/pro that will follow the P965 will not have the Trinnov option and is also not slated to be released for a while longer than either the Outlaw and Emotiva units ship.
Yeah who cares? A lot of companies outsource to 3rd party manufacturers that compete against them. Rarely is that 3rd party's quality and performance a factor in their product. If Sherwood makes these units to Outlaw's spec and tolerance, that's all that matters.


I read that the the Trinnov config included with the Outlaw will even give the NAD T175 with it's Audyssey config, a run for the money. At $700 less, that's a tall order. I know someone who owns the NAD, and I'm trying to figure out a good way to run a comparison when I finally do get the Outlaw. Well that is, if I get it. Actually, I'm kind of hoping Emotiva and Outlaw drive down the price of these others, like NAD. It really irks me that they sell receivers with all the same features for less than the pre/pros. I suspect that the markup isn't justified.
I don't think the price difference should give anyone cause to worry about Outlaw's ability put out as good or better a product. Distribution chain expenses in a lot of products can be as much as the raw goods and manufacturing. A good chunk of what you pay is the inefficient cost of getting NAD gear out everywhere at the same price, and several mark-ups and re-markups along the way. Companies like Outlaw and Emotiva side-step that. In Emotiva's case, they don't even pay an outsource manufacturer.

I keep waiting for some of audio's more heavyweight brands like Arcam or Conrad Johnson or even NAD to give up on brick and mortar and turn into on-line retailers. I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

pixelthis
12-13-2008, 05:21 PM
Well another plus for Outlaw is the configurability (independent cross-overs and a few other digital processing items) that the other guys didn't include in that price range. I don't know if Emotiva has the same granularity or whether they offer others that might tip the balance. The Trinnov is definitely a plus for getting new customers as that would let newbies get very decent sound just from letting the receiver do most of the work (kind of like the Anthems but w/o the high price-point).

Pix, Sherwood has been sourcing their units from the Asian B2B manufacturer as Outlaw for a while, but there have been differences with previous models between the companies (e.g. Sherwood never went down the DVI path). It's my understanding that the next Sherwood pre/pro that will follow the P965 will not have the Trinnov option and is also not slated to be released for a while longer than either the Outlaw and Emotiva units ship.

I read that the the Trinnov config included with the Outlaw will even give the NAD T175 with it's Audyssey config, a run for the money. At $700 less, that's a tall order. I know someone who owns the NAD, and I'm trying to figure out a good way to run a comparison when I finally do get the Outlaw. Well that is, if I get it. Actually, I'm kind of hoping Emotiva and Outlaw drive down the price of these others, like NAD. It really irks me that they sell receivers with all the same features for less than the pre/pros. I suspect that the markup isn't justified.


Yeah, DVI was a real disaster for outlaw.
Heres their flagship pre pro, and its got dvi!
Hdmi hit the ground soon after they put it out and they couldnt afford to change it.
They were selling so cheap I was thinking of buying one, but my INTEGRA HAD EVERYTHING IT HAD..
Should be a bargain at closeout for some who dont need video switching, or the new formats(which you wont need if your Blu player can decode them):1:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990.html

nightflier
12-15-2008, 11:06 AM
Actually, I think I spoke too soon. The new Sherwood-Newcastle P-992 pre/pro, due out in February, will also have the Trinnov processor. MSRP on that unit will be $1799. Pix, I owe you a small apology, on that.

Now whether this will have all the same features as the Outlaw 997, I don't know. In the past, the two companies had some differences in their product lines. For example, Outlaw differentiates its 990 pre/pro from Sherwood's P-965 with: Balanced outputs for all channels, DVI video switching (the Sherwood doesn't have either DVI or HDMI), better bass management, a different OSD with added flexibility, MM phono, renamable video inputs, subwoofer offsets, system lock, and other refinements. Also, the Outlaw, unlike the Sherwood allows you to set all these things from the front panel as well as the remote/OSD, while to get full access to all of the Sherwood's features, you need to use the OSD. Of course, many of the finer differences are in the software, and those are less expensive to make and easier to change through firmware updates.

One thing that I have noticed is that Outlaw consistently beats Sherwood on price. Their pre/pro costs less than Sherwood's and offers more. Likewise, it seems to hold it's value better than the Sherwood one too. I saw a Sherwood pre/pro on eBay not too long ago that sold for $350, back when the 990 was still selling for at least $100 more. So as an investment, I do think the Outlaw is a better value. Finally, Outlaw is better about trickling down it's technology to the lower priced models in the line (of course, they have more of it to trickle down, too). For example, most of the advanced features of the 990 made it down to the 970 and 1070 receiver.

Kex, the Outlaws have extensive bass management features, one of the main reasons why I went with them instead of Yamaha/Onkyo/NAD, and some of the others I was considering at the time. Here's a full table of options in the setup menu:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/990_analog_bm.html

While I'm sure that the Emotiva has similar features, I doubt they are as extensive. And yes, the pre/pro includes two subwoofer outs, including XLR ones, if you need 'em. Outlaw is still being very quiet about the release and getting info out of them is like pulling teeth, even if you get a live sales rep on the phone. That said, the rumor is that there are "beta testers" out there who already have them. They also are expecting decent coverage in the major trade rags, including Stereophile.

I am still on the fence here, mostly because I want to see what Emotiva's lower-priced offering will offer (mostly 'cause I don't really have a lot to spend), but I have to be honest and say that I am leaning to the Outlaw side of this. Emotiva will have to come up with a bang-up product for me to be swayed.

kexodusc
12-15-2008, 12:03 PM
Kex, the Outlaws have extensive bass management features, one of the main reasons why I went with them instead of Yamaha/Onkyo/NAD, and some of the others I was considering at the time. Here's a full table of options in the setup menu:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/990_analog_bm.html


Yeah, I think you're right, Emotiva has something they call the Quadruple bass management something or other which I believe allows for independent bass mgmt of different groups of channels, i.e., L/R, SR, centre, and Sub...not sure it applies it to 7.1 multi-channel analaog inputs though? That could be a deal breaker if your SACD player doesn't do bass management well.

The cheaper Emotiva model has a few negatives working against it - I know to cut costs and avoid even more delays, they left out the headphone jack - to do it in an uncompromised fashion without disrupting the integrity of other circuitry, they felt it was too costly for the value it offered. Same with the decision to not include built in ipod docking and HD Radio...these bonus features are still quite costly as a % of the total unit.
The headphone jack will force some to look at them more expensive model. Fortunately I fall in the majority that won't miss it, I use my headphones only in my 2-ch system and I'm fortunate enough to have a separate stereo room.


I am still on the fence here, mostly because I want to see what Emotiva's lower-priced offering will offer (mostly 'cause I don't really have a lot to spend), but I have to be honest and say that I am leaning to the Outlaw side of this. Emotiva will have to come up with a bang-up product for me to be swayed.

There's also the comfort factor too...you've had mostly great experience with the current Outlaw stuff, the company's doing right by you with your incident - which goes a long way in my book, and the business is their's to lose.

Emotiva isn't promising the world with their pre-pros and it could very well be a slight step below the Outlaw in audio performance. They've been very open about using the Integra 9.9 and Rotel RSP 1570 in their systems as benchmarks...their not claiming to compete with the likes of Cary or Parasound at those prices...If it's a significant upgrade over my mid-fi receiver's audio quality, I think it'll be the best bang-for-the-buck product out there for a lot of people that want more than mid-fi, $1200 a/v receivers as pre-pros. If it's not, hopefully Outlaw's model is cause I'm not dropping $4000-$7000 on an Anthem or whatever. I don't even have that much free time to extract that much value out of my system without sacrificing some serious time with my other hobbies...

Either way, I'm happy to see a few options for quality HT separates that don't start at the $4000-$5000 price point.

Mr Peabody
12-15-2008, 03:31 PM
Who even sells Sherwood these days? Some one was telling me about them having a $69.00 receiver at Best Buy. This type of thing would make it hard to take serious a $1,800.00 preamp. I know other manufacturer's have a foot in both ends of the market but Sherwood has always been having to stretch to even be entry level. I have not kept up with what happened with them after they added the name Newcastle to the end or even what that means. Actually, is Newcastle anybody? I mean I haven't seen any models of gear in the discussions of cherished units, or anything. I have to wonder if they will be significant at all. And, I hope NF was talking about an old model when he mentioned not having HDMI. Any preamp without HDMI is dead in the water before it hits, especially one costing $1,800.00.

pixelthis
12-15-2008, 11:17 PM
Who even sells Sherwood these days? Some one was telling me about them having a $69.00 receiver at Best Buy. This type of thing would make it hard to take serious a $1,800.00 preamp. I know other manufacturer's have a foot in both ends of the market but Sherwood has always been having to stretch to even be entry level. I have not kept up with what happened with them after they added the name Newcastle to the end or even what that means. Actually, is Newcastle anybody? I mean I haven't seen any models of gear in the discussions of cherished units, or anything. I have to wonder if they will be significant at all. And, I hope NF was talking about an old model when he mentioned not having HDMI. Any preamp without HDMI is dead in the water before it hits, especially one costing $1,800.00.


Sherwood came out with a nifty pre-pro for 900 bucks a few years back, and I have never read a bad review on them, they are quality at beer prices, suposedly.
AND he is talking about the "old" model, see the link for outlaws current "flagship"
(on sale for 699!).
OF COURSE YOU will be able to trade it in for a "new" model.
In one of the biggest examples of bad timing outlaw came out with their flagship,
intending for it to last several years.
Only thing...it had DVI!
It dropped right before HDMI took off.
So even tho well reviewed it looks a bit dated, with its DVI plugs on the back.
Sure you can use an adapter, but DVI wont transmit audio, and the world moved on.
Really a sad story.:1:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990_gallery3.html

nightflier
12-16-2008, 11:14 AM
Pixel, I get the feeling you really don't like Outlaw. The fact is, no pre/pro is going to have all the features everybody wants - we always have to compromise something. DVI was a big compromise, but the rest of its features were pretty stellar, so for many of us, we bought in anyways.

Regarding the Sherwood-Newcastle, I need to make a small correction, their top-of-the-line component with Trinov will be a receiver, and not a pre/pro. It will still have the pre-outs, but it's pretty much a receiver. The model number is also different, it will be the P-972. Outlaw, on the other hand will not be making a receiver with Trinnov, and their pre/pro will have XLR inputs and outputs, in addition to several other smaller hardware/software differences, although the rumor is that the MM phono input has been eliminated.

Now onto some good news: my Outlaw came back late last night! I didn't get a chance to hook it up, but I'll do so as soon as I get a free moment between the diaper changes and the hustle-n-bustle of midweek evenings. I also ordered a wall-mount for the Plasma and that should arrive sometime soon.

pixelthis
12-18-2008, 12:42 AM
Pixel, I get the feeling you really don't like Outlaw. The fact is, no pre/pro is going to have all the features everybody wants - we always have to compromise something. DVI was a big compromise, but the rest of its features were pretty stellar, so for many of us, we bought in anyways.

Regarding the Sherwood-Newcastle, I need to make a small correction, their top-of-the-line component with Trinov will be a receiver, and not a pre/pro. It will still have the pre-outs, but it's pretty much a receiver. The model number is also different, it will be the P-972. Outlaw, on the other hand will not be making a receiver with Trinnov, and their pre/pro will have XLR inputs and outputs, in addition to several other smaller hardware/software differences, although the rumor is that the MM phono input has been eliminated.

Now onto some good news: my Outlaw came back late last night! I didn't get a chance to hook it up, but I'll do so as soon as I get a free moment between the diaper changes and the hustle-n-bustle of midweek evenings. I also ordered a wall-mount for the Plasma and that should arrive sometime soon.

Now where did you get that impression?
I preferred them to the emotiva in that thread, and I spend a lot of time at their site.
ACTUALLY I am a "fan", but probably wont be buying soon.
This is not a fault of their products, I try never to buy online for one simple reason.
Mainly I dont want to get into the same boat you just climbed out of.
I have no "spare" to cover me when something blows.
However there are several locals who will loan me one while they do repairs.
In other words I CANT LIVE WITHOUT MY GEAR for too long.
A speaker goes out, I pull he backs to the front, the blu goes out I use the DVD player.
I need my tunes!
Although my Integra might take up "backup" duty someday.
I am a big fan of Sherwood also, BTW.
aS FOR THE 990, I have always been fascinated by the worst case of bad timing ever.
This is a beautiful design, simple and uncluttered, with this great big scrambled egg on its face.
What is even more interesting is that Outlaw has never acknowledged this, just whistled past the graveyard and hoped nobody would notice.:1:

nightflier
12-18-2008, 10:08 AM
I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...

kexodusc
12-18-2008, 10:14 AM
I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...
Ugh...that's pretty much reducing my options. Doh.

pixelthis
12-18-2008, 03:28 PM
I just got this from Outlaw (drats!):

"As part of our arrangement with Sherwood, their receiver will go into production first, and our processor will follow. The platform is almost complete, but as Sherwood's receiver requires additional time for some certifications due to the inclusion of an amplifier, the start of production for our Model 997 has been pushed back a bit. Thus, we're now looking at a ship date during the first quarter of 2009. We'll keep you posted as things move forward."

That means I'll be living with DVI for as far down the road as March 2009! Looks like Emotiva is back in the game....

Funny, my broker gave me the same time-frame for the stock market...


MIGHT be living with it a lot longer.
The credit markets are frozen over, banks are not lending at all.
Used to be you get the credit, show a letter to the OEM and get things started.
That is not happening now.
Also something called the Baltic dry index is almost down to zero.
Trust me, that is BAD.
What they told you was typical corporate flimflamery.
In other words a lie, trying to buy time.ASK SIR TALKY, its his livihood.
Poor Outlaw, can't buy a break, their last flagship was marred by outdated tech the day it hit the street, and their latest flagship might just sink under the weight of the coming depression.
OF COURSE THEY AREN'T ALONE, if you are used to frequent upgrades beter get used to the equipment you have , might not be anymore for awhile.
Either you wont be able to afford it, OR THEY WONT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT.:1:

pixelthis
12-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Think about what they told you.
THE RECEIVER IS GOING TO BE MADE FIRST, and it will take longer to certify or something like that.
So why not go ahead and make the pre-pro while they are waiting?
It doesnt have any amps.
SO ITS NOT EVEN A GOOD FAIRY TALE.
Everything is probably on hold, might be awhile, if ever before you get your new pre-pro.:1:

audio amateur
12-18-2008, 03:54 PM
Some encouraging thoughts you got there Pix. Keep 'em coming

pixelthis
12-19-2008, 01:58 PM
Some encouraging thoughts you got there Pix. Keep 'em coming

I know its not a comforting thought, but our world is changing.
And from my time in Law enforcement I have learned to pick apart just about any lie,
just add logic.
And there is no logic to what outlaw said, none whatsoever.
Just corp hooey to keep the deposits for the new pre-pro and buy time while they try to figure something out.:1:

nightflier
12-21-2008, 02:23 PM
According to Outlaw, they have an agreement with Sherwood, that the receiver will be released first. So Until that is certified, they have to hold off on their pre/pro. That doesn't sound too conspiratorial to me. It was the same with the 990. Anyhow, that gives them time to correct any software errors and fix any issues that come up with the receiver version.

You can always choose to see the cup half-empty, Pix, but then you'll be a lot less happier for it.

pixelthis
12-21-2008, 11:07 PM
According to Outlaw, they have an agreement with Sherwood, that the receiver will be released first. So Until that is certified, they have to hold off on their pre/pro. That doesn't sound too conspiratorial to me. It was the same with the 990. Anyhow, that gives them time to correct any software errors and fix any issues that come up with the receiver version.

You can always choose to see the cup half-empty, Pix, but then you'll be a lot less happier for it.

OH come on.
I AM AM OPTIMIST, throw me out the window of a tall building and when I get to the second floor I WILL say "so far so good".
But I have been in security/police work my whole life, and have learned that reality is
something you avoid at your own risk..
Maybe outlaw is on the level, maybe I am right.
Just doesnt seem to make sense to hold up the pre-pro when the receiver isnt ready.
Work for the govt for awhile, you will take everything you hear with a grain of salt also.
Putting out the receiver first isnt nessesary, just an agreement, if indeed what they are saying is true, so whats the harm in putting out a few pre-pros first?
If the form factor of the pre-pro is a receiver with no amps, and teh amps are whats being "certified" then churn out a few prepros FIRST, whats the harm, is all I am saying.:1:

nightflier
12-22-2008, 10:02 AM
Just doesnt seem to make sense to hold up the pre-pro when the receiver isnt ready. Work for the govt for awhile, you will take everything you hear with a grain of salt also. Putting out the receiver first isnt nessesary, just an agreement, if indeed what they are saying is true, so whats the harm in putting out a few pre-pros first?

It's not an issue of technology, but of contractual agreements. Sherwood will have the first crack at the market, it's in their contract. I presume that Outlaw is probably a much smaller player in this and therefore Sherwood has the priority agreement with the OEM.

Surely, working for the government, you've become intimately familiar with contracts...

By the way, the receiver is back and working like a charm.

Mr Peabody
12-22-2008, 03:57 PM
That is, an odd agreement as Outlaw and Sherwood are two different brand names, as well preamps and receivers typically are bought by consumers with different mind sets of going about their systems construction. That would be like Marantz holding off on a preamp until Denon put out a new flagship receiver. I'm sure they have their reasons but it defies logic to me.

I know Outlaw gets a lot of good reviews, for what ever that's worth, but I really am suspect of how good they actually are if their affiliation with Sherwood is as tight as you all say. It must be tighter than just coming out of the same plant to make the type of agreement stated.

pixelthis
12-22-2008, 11:55 PM
That is, an odd agreement as Outlaw and Sherwood are two different brand names, as well preamps and receivers typically are bought by consumers with different mind sets of going about their systems construction. That would be like Marantz holding off on a preamp until Denon put out a new flagship receiver. I'm sure they have their reasons but it defies logic to me.

I know Outlaw gets a lot of good reviews, for what ever that's worth, but I really am suspect of how good they actually are if their affiliation with Sherwood is as tight as you all say. It must be tighter than just coming out of the same plant to make the type of agreement stated.

Outlaws model is that of a virtual company, the entire company is a creation of marketing.
AND nothing wrong with that.
ATI, for instance, used to make their amps, dont know if they still do.
Outlaw will always need a "real" company to make their rebadged products.
I dont see your concern for Sherwood, MR P.
They are an established company that has been around for a long time, and have an outstanding rep. Their modius operandi is making "value brand" items that are packed with quality for their price, for the audiophile who cant afford better.
They don't advertise much, (at least in the states) and save money in places that dont compromise quality.
Look at Cambridge audio, their stuff is designed in England, goes to a Hong Kong office,
which gets the manufacturing done in China.
They dont hide this, even brag about it in a video on youtube.
SHERWOOD IS SIMILAR.:1:

pixelthis
12-22-2008, 11:59 PM
It's not an issue of technology, but of contractual agreements. Sherwood will have the first crack at the market, it's in their contract. I presume that Outlaw is probably a much smaller player in this and therefore Sherwood has the priority agreement with the OEM.

Surely, working for the government, you've become intimately familiar with contracts...

By the way, the receiver is back and working like a charm.

GLAD TO HEAR IT.
And I am intimately familar with "contracts", and know they are worth the paper they are printed on.
The paper money is printed on is worth a LOT more.:1:

kexodusc
12-23-2008, 04:11 AM
On the whole Sherwood/Outlaw receiver thing...

Many of the manufacturing business I've visited usually uses the same facility to produce a variety of items. Manufacturing 101 - it can take months to modify the facility to produce something very similar but with a few minor changes to the finished product. Timing when to take those delays, and which products to produce first is just as important to the business as the design and quality of the product itself.

I see this as Sherwood throwing its weight. Receivers outsell pre-pros by what? 100:1 or more? Even Pix can see if they're going to delay anything it's going to be the pre-pros...they'll get their bread and butter product out there first to start recovering as much capital as they can at a time when they need it more than ever...you're not going to do that producing your tertiary products, you do that by finishing your best sellers.

Unfortunately since Sherwood is building this for them, Outlaw will have to piggy back on whatever production runs Sherwood is ready for. In this case, that means receiver first. Which probably helps Outlaw too, I'm guessing they sell a pile of receivers themselves.

No conspiracy at all...just basic strategy.

nightflier
12-23-2008, 12:05 PM
Actually, Sherwood does not manufacture the receivers. Both the receivers and pre/pros are manufactured by an OEM, but since Sherwood has a much larger distribution, Outlaw has to wait their turn.

On the plus side, this puts the responsibility on Sherwood to be the guinea pig and work out all the software bugs, while Outlaw can then incorporate all the fixes in it's first run.

Mr Peabody
12-23-2008, 06:11 PM
There Kex goes making sense again.

Pix, don't even compare Sherwood to Cambridge. Sherwood is for those who used to buy their stereo from department stores, like Pennies. Sherwood don't have any rep! Except for being the cheapest product on the block. Like i said I don't even know anyone who carries them. I'll have to do a search, I'm curious now to see where they are at. And, I certainly wouldn't mention Sherwood and audiophile in the same sentence. That's like saying the Huns were great humanitarians.

pixelthis
12-23-2008, 11:45 PM
There Kex goes making sense again.

Pix, don't even compare Sherwood to Cambridge. Sherwood is for those who used to buy their stereo from department stores, like Pennies. Sherwood don't have any rep! Except for being the cheapest product on the block. Like i said I don't even know anyone who carries them. I'll have to do a search, I'm curious now to see where they are at. And, I certainly wouldn't mention Sherwood and audiophile in the same sentence. That's like saying the Huns were great humanitarians.


oh please brother!
Sherwood does have a "rep" and a darn tootin good one, fact that you dont know about it doesnt make it so.
AND I wasnt comparing SHERWOOD PRODUCTS WITH cambridge products, I was
comparing production techniques, both of which are similar.
As for being "audiophile" I wouldnt think of most of the stuff out there as "audiophile",
including most receivers.
Audiophile is a rather high standard, two channel, highest q circuit paths, discrete
componets, etc. But lets not get into that!!!
Basically the "receiver" in this case is the prepro with receiver type (cheap) amps crammed in. Since the amps are what needs to be "certified"(whatever that means)
and the pre-pro doesnt need any, just doesnt make sense to hold them up.
Instead the OEM is going to have downtime waiting for the "certification" so they can start making gear, when they could be making gear while they "wait" for teh so called "certification".
ALL I AM SAYING.:1:

Mr Peabody
12-24-2008, 05:47 AM
Thanks for back tracking Pix. Your idea of a "good rep" and mine but obviously be different.

Sherwood 4103 stereo receiver 210x2 wpc with a MSRP of $148.00, need I say more.

Manufacturers sometimes try to change their market strategy but if Sherwood wants respect they have a long way to go. If they can get a receiver THX certified good for them but there's a lot of competition and for a brand like Sherwood to gain respect and market share they are going to have to do something big.

You can find Sherwood sold online by Amazon & Needledoctor, I'm sure other but I don't find too many B&M stores. Also, the online reviews are sparse, I have to wonder how many units Sherwood even sell. If you can find any good info I'd be interested in seeing it.

nightflier
01-06-2009, 03:43 PM
Well not to muddy the waters, but there are some positive preliminary reports about the CES-announced Sherwood-Newcastle R-972 Receiver:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2007-consumer-electronics-show-ces/sherwood-newcastle-r-972-hdmi-1-3-receiver

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-components/2999-sherwood-newcastle-r-972-looks-like-winner.html

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/01/sherwood-debuts-new-flagship-av-receiver/

http://blogs.zdnet.com/home-theater/?p=144

http://www.electronichouse.com/slideshow/category/3089/553

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/522538.html

Mr Peabody
01-06-2009, 05:11 PM
CES? What's that? Man, I forgot about it. I'm used to there being some what of a buzz this time of year. I hope others bring in some more news. Thanks, NF

That Trinnov sounds unreal. I'll reserve opinions until I hear it or see more actual listening reviews. I remember way back when Yamaha sprung their DSP on the world proclaiming to bring the concert venue into the listening room. Not quite, but good try. It's also hard to think $13k of technology can be tucked into a $1800.00 receiver. On the flip I don't hear many people happy with the room EQ systems on receivers and processors today, so if Sherwood can get in there and mix it up, good for them.

pixelthis
01-07-2009, 01:24 AM
Thanks for back tracking Pix. Your idea of a "good rep" and mine but obviously be different.

Sherwood 4103 stereo receiver 210x2 wpc with a MSRP of $148.00, need I say more.

Manufacturers sometimes try to change their market strategy but if Sherwood wants respect they have a long way to go. If they can get a receiver THX certified good for them but there's a lot of competition and for a brand like Sherwood to gain respect and market share they are going to have to do something big.

You can find Sherwood sold online by Amazon & Needledoctor, I'm sure other but I don't find too many B&M stores. Also, the online reviews are sparse, I have to wonder how many units Sherwood even sell. If you can find any good info I'd be interested in seeing it.


ONKYO has a 606 receiver that sells for 299$.
Sherwood has been doing HI-FI stuff for years.
Just because YOU HAVENT HEARD OF IT......:1:

Mr Peabody
01-07-2009, 06:49 PM
I know Sherwood has been putting out product for years but "hi fi" is debateable. Over those years Sherwood's main competition was brands like Emerson.

pixelthis
01-07-2009, 11:13 PM
I know Sherwood has been putting out product for years but "hi fi" is debateable. Over those years Sherwood's main competition was brands like Emerson.

EMERSON!!!
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS STUFF?:1:

pixelthis
01-07-2009, 11:18 PM
CHECK OUT this link old man, tell me if you see any EMERSON VCRS' lurking around
there.:1:

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/nc_cat_hts.html

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/new.html

nightflier
01-08-2009, 01:53 PM
Emerson? Hey don't mess with my clock-radio. It's got fake wood paneling, but it still plays music, even after having been thrown across the room a few times too many. Wonder how well a Sherwood receiver would fly across the room...

Pix, are you stalking my posts? Should I be worried?

pixelthis
01-08-2009, 11:18 PM
Emerson? Hey don't mess with my clock-radio. It's got fake wood paneling, but it still plays music, even after having been thrown across the room a few times too many. Wonder how well a Sherwood receiver would fly across the room...

Pix, are you stalking my posts? Should I be worried?

Now dont get full of yourself, you are a decent guy, just a little clueless in spots,
but you are hanging out in my hangout places is all.
Glad you got your gear back up and running BTW.
I JUST CANT BELEIVE MR PEE PEE compared sherwood to emerson,
the kitcz king.
Its a lot different building a pre-pro as opposed to a clock radio, after all:1:

Mr Peabody
01-09-2009, 05:11 AM
Come on, Pix, before this receiver Sherwood was the product an uninformed consumer bought who wanted the cheapest possible product, hence, the parallel to Emerson. And, because they have the receiver don't mean anything, the proof is in the performance. So we will see if Sherwood elevates or just remains a "off brand performer" with a brand name recognition. Sherwood has been around for decades but lack the respect of a Pioneer or Onkyo and the like. I wonder why? And, Pioneer has had some embarrassing products themselves. Anyone on this forum or any other actually show Sherwood in their equipment list? I have yet to see it.

nightflier
01-29-2009, 04:46 PM
Not to revive an old thread indefinitely, but is there any news on how that Sherwood receiver with Trinnov is faring out there? I'm chomping at the bit to buy that new Outlaw pre/pro, but there's a virtual dead silence out there about that one. Last I heard, we could be looking as late as June for a delivery on it.

Mr Peabody
01-29-2009, 07:03 PM
I saw Sherwood also has a Blu-ray player out.

pixelthis
01-29-2009, 11:56 PM
Not to revive an old thread indefinitely, but is there any news on how that Sherwood receiver with Trinnov is faring out there? I'm chomping at the bit to buy that new Outlaw pre/pro, but there's a virtual dead silence out there about that one. Last I heard, we could be looking as late as June for a delivery on it.


With the economy the way it is, and with your man in office,
might be more like JUNE 2059.:1:

nightflier
01-30-2009, 09:54 AM
So June 2009 it is.

Thank god "my guy" is in office. Can you imagine how bad things would be if the other guy had won (that is, if he's lived to see the day)?

pixelthis
01-30-2009, 02:50 PM
So June 2009 it is.

Thank god "my guy" is in office. Can you imagine how bad things would be if the other guy had won (that is, if he's lived to see the day)?


AS compared to this guy...:1:

nightflier
01-30-2009, 03:20 PM
I hardly think "my guy" is as militaristic, oppressive, and violent as the other guy would have been. I think you're a bit disillusioned about this, Pix. Have you taken your meds today?