Music Subs: Which brands do it best? (HSU content)

[Canadia507]

I recently inherited a HSU VTF-2 MK2 sub and i'm wondering how well it stacks up in terms of musical reproduction. I listen mainly to classical, jazz, and indie rock and i'm much more concerned with the ability to reproduce bass notes cleanly and quickly without distortion, booming, sloppiness, and all those other nasty pitfalls that have come to characterize so many larger HT-oriented subs.

I've done some research, and, from what i can gather, a sealed sub is what i'd ideally be looking for considering the more gradual low-extension drop off. The obvious compromise to a sealed setup would be maximum output, though thats not a priority for me.

Fortunately, despite high praise among the HT community, the VTF-2 also has a max-extension mode allowing one of the two ports to be plugged, thereby effectively lowering the frequency response to ~25hz, which makes me happy. How well does this work? Is a "hybrid" setup like this recommendable?

And more specifically, has anyone bought a HSU sub for incorporation with a setup build chiefly for music? If so, how do you like it?

I hear a lot of good things about the Martin Logan Dynamo - maybe i'd be better off trying to pawn the VTF-2 on ebay as it's in flawless shape - it basically sat in the box for two years. Decisions...

Any and all suggestions/info would be greatly appreciated.

[Worf101]

I have a HSU VTF-2 that's been doing double duty in my main system since the company first introduced the model. I find HSU subs to be outstanding for both music and movies. I don't work for em, never met the man (heard he's nice though), but Hsu has provided me with outstanding bang for the buck and since I've been running it for some 5 years now, it's obviously built to last.

Hope this helps...

Da Worfster

[blackraven]

The Martin Logan subs are great for music and I would assume better than the HSU's for music although I have never heard an HSU. The Dynamo is a great buy and I saw it for $499 at a discount online store. It sells for $599 and is a real bargain at either price.
The ML Grotto is even better if your willing to spend about $1200. Its servo controlled.

Others to consider are the Velodyne SPL series as they are non ported as well. Their digital drive series is also servo controlled and are great for music.

If you want to spend about $1500-2,000, look at the REL subs.

[Canadia507]

Worf, thanks for the testimony; it's encouraging to know that it's a versatile sub, not to mention durable. What genres of music do you typically listen to?

Oh and for what it's worth, i'm from Schenectady :lol:

[blackraven]

I'm a Brooklyn NY native!

[Woochifer]

With subs, it's more than just the brand that you need to consider.

The Hsus are very well regarded because they provide excellent performance for the price. The ML Dynamo is also well regarded, but it's a fundamentally different design because it uses a sealed box. And that distinction is crucial.

But, the performance in your room also depends on the sub's compatibility with your room dimensions, the sub positioning, and the calibration.

We've had several threads on this subject over the years, but generally I would recommend going with sealed subs if you have a small room (i.e., with wall dimensions less than ~12 feet), and ported subs if you want higher bass output within a larger room.

In between, some would say that sealed subs are more "musical" because of their quicker transient response and the more gradual rolloff at the low end. But, that's not to say that a ported sub can't also make for a fine unit with music. The Hsu VTF-2's port plug works in conjunction with an internal EQ circuit on the sub amp that maintains a comparably flat response curve, albeit with a lower maximum output.

Right now, the market is dominated by ported subs, primarily because their greater efficiency and higher measured bass output is geared towards the home theater market. But, I've found that in a small room, the boundary reinforcement will very quickly create an overpowering effect. The advantage of a sealed sub is that the low end rolloff occurs at roughly the same rate as the boundary reinforcement. In a small room, that boundary reinforcement begins at a higher frequency, and if a sub maintains a level response down to ~25 Hz, that means that the actual in-room output on those lower frequencies can actually be more than doubled.

In a large room with wall dimensions of ~40 feet or more, a sub that measures flat under anecholic conditions will have a similarly flat in-room response curve. But, as the room dimensions shrink, the boundary reinforcement will raise the curve at the low end, and also introduce wave interactions that create cancellations and peaks at different frequencies.

Because most rooms have wall dimensions under 20', you will have room interactions. You can minimize them through careful placement Regardless of whether you go with a sealed or ported sub, I think should look into a parametric equalizer. EQ'ing the sub IMO is more important to attaining a "musical" bass quality than the type of sub you go with.

The Behringer Feedback Destroyer is a very popular unit on this board, and it has worked wonders with my setup. Velodyne and other companies also make their own auto calibrating subwoofer EQs (the auto calibration that comes with most receivers is ineffective in the lower frequencies).

[RoadRunner6]

What's your budget if you buy new? Is there going to be any home theater use at all?

[Canadia507]

A very informative post, Woochifer -


The ML Dynamo is also well regarded, but it's a fundamentally different design because it uses a sealed box. And that distinction is crucial

I believe a sealed sub is precisely what i want; however, it's not what i have. I'm just wondering how adept the HSU will be at filling the role of something sealed.


But, the performance in your room also depends on the sub's compatibility with your room dimensions, the sub positioning, and the calibration.

This is very true. My rig is currently in a rather large (30x18 or so) rectangular room. The only catch is a wood stove and a phone booth on either side of my mains, preventing me from placing the sub there. I've got limited options and several peices of furniture in the way, precluding perfect placement. I've basically come to accept the acoustic flaws of the room.

I won't be here permanently though, and as such i'm not too concerned about mating the perfect sub to this particular room. I'd like to get something versatile and as close as possible to what i'd ideally like, i.e. a clean, musical bass note.


What's your budget if you buy new? Is there going to be any home theater use at all?

That depends on the market for a used, albiet in excellent condition, VTF-2. I may not even have to sell it if it fits my criteria well enough.

I would also be using it for HT on occasion, although musical performance would be paramount.

[musicman1999]

I have a jm labs cobalt sw800s which is a large sealed design and it is very good musically and blends perfectly with my cobalt floorstanders. It will also deliver the goods for ht.

bill

[RoadRunner6]

EQ'ing the sub IMO is more important to attaining a "musical" bass quality than the type of sub you go with.

I think Woochifer really hit the nail on the head with that statement!

In the old days it was general consensus that the sealed subs had better transient response and tended to be more musical, all things being equal. However, in recent years I believe this difference has almost disappeared with significant improvements in ported designs. There are simply many fine subs with both designs.

Due to room acoustics the best performance results in quality subs properly placed and calibrated in each individual room. This not a simple matter of setting the sub where it looks best. The process is somewhat complicated and time consuming but the results are worthwhile.

IMO some form of equalization is essential in most rooms. This can include a sub's built-in EQ, external equalizers such as the Behringer BFD, the Velodyne SM-1, a manual in-receiver EQ or even a simple 31 band graphic mono pro EQ. Don't laugh on the last one. I actually used an ART 351 EQ (about $125), the same unit that SVS used to sell. I used the lower 7 sliders or so to lower significant peaks. It worked extremely well in my room. A Radio Shack sound pressure level meter (the analog one only, not the digital model) and a frequency response tone CD are essential tools for obtaining a flat in-room response for most subs. A sub that sounds slow and not musical might sound great when moved to a better location in the same room and properly calibrated.

Another important issue is to make sure one has plenty of power headroom for the main speakers to add the dynamic/transient response necessary to give that quick tight/snap/punch that most people think is actually in the sub. It is mostly the overtones/harmonics from the subs fundamental notes that are in the upper bass/midrange and reproduced by the main speakers. If the amp runs out of gas and clips (audible distortion) this muddies that tight sound. This can also be the result of high distortion in the sub. Be sure you pick a model that has low distortion levels. This is one reason why many of the tiny mini cube style subs tend to sound mushy.

RR6

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tightbass.html

[Worf101]

Worf, thanks for the testimony; it's encouraging to know that it's a versatile sub, not to mention durable. What genres of music do you typically listen to?

Oh and for what it's worth, i'm from Schenectady :lol:
Well, mostly I listen to "Old School" RnB. Atlantic, Motown Funk and Soul. BUT my 15 year ole knucklehead listens to Indie Rock etc. Yes, the HSU is versatile and durable, but there's been many improvements to subs since mine was made. Some models have remote controls, some have self calibration programs as well. You came to the "right" place for advice. I personally think either course of action is doable but knowing what a pain shipping stuff can be (unless you find a locak buyer) I'd just keep the thing and run it till something markedly better came along.

But that's just me.

Da Worfster

PS when's the last time you were in GE town?

[RoadRunner6]

Da Worfster and others might be interested in this.

This is the best $8 you will ever spend on a DVD (I paid $6 for it a couple of years ago and they have bumped the price a little). There are a couple of new more expensive deluxe versions that I have not seen.

".....STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN won the 2003 Grammy Award for Best Compilation Album For A Motion Picture Or Television......"

This is a two disc set, including the documentary about the Funk Brothers with all the music and a second disc with just the music. If you didn't think white woman could sing wait until you hear Joan Osborne belt out Heat Wave. Simply fantastic! Great sound(DD/DTS)! It is a steal at 8 bucks.

http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=5751608

RR6 :23:

[flippo]

You can also build a high quality sub with proper research. I bult a sub using the Infinity
Kappa perfect 12 VQ and it sounds fantastic! No bloom or sloppiness and it hits low.

[Worf101]

Da Worfster and others might be interested in this.

This is the best $8 you will ever spend on a DVD (I paid $6 for it a couple of years ago and they have bumped the price a little). There are a couple of new more expensive deluxe versions that I have not seen.

".....STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN won the 2003 Grammy Award for Best Compilation Album For A Motion Picture Or Television......"

This is a two disc set, including the documentary about the Funk Brothers with all the music and a second disc with just the music. If you didn't think white woman could sing wait until you hear Joan Osborne belt out Heat Wave. Simply fantastic! Great sound(DD/DTS)! It is a steal at 8 bucks.

http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=5751608

RR6 :23:
Been there, glad I done that. I've owned this 2 disk DVD for YEARS. It's marvelous. I play bass for pay in my off hours, been doing this since Nixon was President, Jamerson has been a hero of mine since the '70's Being old enough to have lived through the enitre Motown Era I found myself reduced to tears several times during my repeated watchings of the documentary. Like real life, there weren't a lot of "happy endings" for Jamerson and Co. but the music my God, what music. When they finally perform "What's Going On?" and "Ain't No Mountain" chills run up and down my spine. Marvelous, simply marvelous.

Da Worfster

[pdhanwada]

My current system

Paradigm Signature S4 -- Fronts
Paradigm C-4 center
Paradigm Monitor 5 Rear
Energy Es XL10 SUb
B&K REF 30 preamp
B&K 7570 Multi channel amp

In my current system right now my weakest link is the Subwoofer. I am planning to upgrade. I am planning to spend upto $1000 for a Second available in Audiogon.

My requirement 75% Two channel audio 25% Movies.


Which ones could match.

My questions are

1. Is it reliable to buy a used subwoofer thru Audiogon

2. It is not possible for me to audition the Sub with my system. Is that ok.

3. Which ones would be the best in my budget range.

Thanks
Pandu

[blackraven]

There are many good subs in the $$600-$1,000 range. If your planning on spending $1K consider the following

Martin Login Grotto which is servo controlled and non ported

Velodyne SPL subs

Any of the REL subs in this price range. Check out Sumiko Audio for new REL subs http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/index.htm
They make some of the best Subs in the world

B&W PV1

And the Martin Logan Dynamo which is a steal at $600 new. Its non ported, very musical and blows away many subs costing hundreds more.

Hope this helps some. There are many more excellent subs but these are some of my favorites and all are highly rated. If your more into 2ch audio, stick with an 8-10" sub.

[pdhanwada]

I see quite a few rel subs available in Audiogon. I am looking for strata II or strata III. How old are they. Stadium and storm series are heavier and bigger. I am not intrested in them.

How do you feel about them.

Thanks
pandu

[blackraven]

The strata subs are excellent.

[pdhanwada]

Blackraven and others.

I see that Rel subs are down firing. I live in a house where walls are built by brick and cement and the flooring is all marble and concrete underneath it. Though I plan to have a carpet covered over the flooring, Does the type of sub( downfiring vs front firing and ported vs non ported.) has any impact on the sound quality.

Can you also explain what means ported and non ported subs.

Thanks
Pandu

[blackraven]

A ported sub has an open hole in the cabinet and a non ported sub does not. I favor non ported subs as they usually have a tighter bass.

Not all REL subs are down firing.

It should not matter using a down firing sub on your floors.

[pixelthis]

AS far as "musical" there is only ONE company that does it right
B&W.
My ASW2500 is great for movies, but for music its OUTSTANDING.
As for the Mowtown disc, couldnt beleive that it was in the bargain bin at Walfart .
I play it on my computer in HD, run the sound through my stereo.
Joan Osborn is the most unreconized talent in the industry,
although she does rely a tad much on "standards":1:

[Jimmy C]

Blackraven and others.

I see that Rel subs are down firing. I live in a house where walls are built by brick and cement and the flooring is all marble and concrete underneath it. Though I plan to have a carpet covered over the flooring, Does the type of sub( downfiring vs front firing and ported vs non ported.) has any impact on the sound quality.

Can you also explain what means ported and non ported subs.

Thanks
Pandu

...my situation is just that - slab flooring, carpet, and a REL Strata III.

The Strata comes up from below and meets the speakers, letting them run full-range. My roll-off is set at 38 cycles, adding a subtle (but important) foundation.

Yeah, a down-firing driver seems counter-intuitive, but at no point is the sub detectable as a single source... she blends very well. Below 80 cycles (IIRC) bass is non-directional.

As with most subs, there are plenty of adjustments to suit your room.

When we moved into our condo, I thought there would be some lumpy bass/bad imaging... the front 1/3 of the left wall is open to a foyer area. As it turns out, the bass actually seems smoother than it was in my last livingroom. Imaging didn't suffer either - I thought the soundstage would be pulled to the right (closed) side... not so.

Guess that's how much I know about acoustics! B^)

[pdhanwada]

When I see some comments about subwoofer performance, They rate it with the speed of the subwoofer matching the speakers.

What is that.

What do you mean when you say My subwoofer is fast.

I dont understand.

Thanks
pandu

[blackraven]

A fast sub means tight well controlled bass without boom or muddiness. The movement of the woofer is well controlled and not sloppy. Non ported subs and servo controlled subs tend to be "Fast". Also, smaller woofer's tend to be faster because of less woofer movement compared to lets say a 12"-15" woofer. With that being said, you can still get a fast sub with a large woofer, your just going to pay out your nose for it.

Thats why martin logan subs are non ported and some servo controlled so that the bass can keep up with their electrostatic speakers.

[audio amateur]

A fast sub means tight well controlled bass without boom or muddiness. The movement of the woofer is well controlled and not sloppy. Non ported subs and servo controlled subs tend to be "Fast". Also, smaller woofer's tend to be faster because of less woofer movement compared to lets say a 12"-15" woofer. With that being said, you can still get a fast sub with a large woofer, your just going to pay out your nose for it.

Thats why martin logan subs are non ported and some servo controlled so that the bass can keep up with their electrostatic speakers.
I believe the opposite is true?

[blackraven]

I believe the opposite is true?

Here's a passage from the link below-


As for design there are a few favours to try out. Port and sealed subwoofers are the general term. Ported designs, basically have a port, that lets the sound and pressure escape to create more volume, at the cost of being “lose”. Sealed types need a lot more power, but are much more “tight” in the sound character. The best-ported designs have the driver faced downward to a dispersion plate and have the port face out the side

http://www.epinions.com/content_3281756292

Here's a second link talking about ported subs vs nonported-

http://whathifi.com/forums/145979/ShowThread.aspx

[audio amateur]

I was actually refering to what you mentionned about small drivers moving less than larger ones.

[blackraven]

I meant to say that smaller drivers are more controlled than larger drivers. In essence, less sloppy.

[blackraven]

Here's a link on subwoofer size



"The nOrh subwoofer is designed around our philosophy, use a small woofer in a large cabinet in stereo pairs for the best performance. We use Vifa's most expensive 8 inch woofer (PL22WR09-08). We mount the woofer so that it is offset on the baffle (not centered).

Note: The reason we use small woofers is that a large woofer has more mass and therefore is slower than a smaller woofer. A large woofer is slow to start and slow to stop. A smaller woofer will react much faster. Two woofers will provide more surface area than one 12 inch woofer. Furthermore, using subwoofers in stereo pairs preserves the stereo image." http://www.norh.com/products/sub/tech.html

Here's a great link explaining subwoofer design and adjustment and placement

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=43669

[audio amateur]

To argue with that I have something a little more technical (sorry I don't have the link):

#8 Smaller drivers sound better than bigger drivers

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is further from the truth. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have lower Q’s because manufactures tend to put large cones on smaller motors to increase SPL and sensitivity but not BL product. Well unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers and ultimately the driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments and could ring too much and compromise the perceived sound quality. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not any less “tight” or “musical” than well dampened drivers, it’s just they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent ringing. Ultimately there becomes a point where a driver really should be used in an infinite baffle where its actual Qts and Fs becomes the system Qtc and Fc. As enclosure volume decreases, Qtc increases and it will take a driver with a low Qts to make for an average Q system. So in conclusion, the only reason to use a smaller bass driver is for space, weight and potentially power considerations, but likewise, it is inappropriate to try and fit a larger driver into a space smaller than it is ideal for.

[blackraven]

My original point was that you will have pay out the nose for a larger sub that has the proper motor, magnet and cabinet for a large driver to give well controlled bass and not sound sloppy or boomy. Cheaper 12-15" subs usually dont have proper matching of magnets, motors or cabinets.

Here's an example of a large sub that is properly balanced
http://velodyne.com/products/specs/DD_1812_Sign.html

This beast weighs 384lbs.

So the bottom line is that I am not disagreeing with you but I still believe that when it comes to cheaper subs, smaller is better and faster.

[audio amateur]

So the bottom line is that I am not disagreeing with you but I still believe that when it comes to cheaper subs, smaller is better and faster.
I think that sums it up nicely.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...This beast weighs 384lbs...

:yikes:

Better factor in the cost of a forklift.