'Audiophile' Brands have started advertising!!!!!! [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Ajani
09-25-2008, 11:41 AM
Yep, It seems that the good old audio brands (at least one group anyway) have realized that actually advertising products (other than in Stereophile and audio sites) might increase market share...

So here's the release from Harman International:


Harman Announces New Corporate Advertising Campaign
Step into the exciting world of Harman International with our new corporate advertising campaign. Both print and online media will showcase the company’s diverse product and brand portfolio beginning in September 2008.

Full-color, full-page advertisements will appear in TIME, Fortune, The Economist and Rolling Stone in the United States, with supporting online banners in such media as Google, Yahoo!, and other leading online providers. International print media will include multi-market editions of Fortune, The Economist, and regional publications targeting the emerging markets of Asia, Latin America and the Middle East.

“This campaign is an important element of our strategy to raise the Company’s profile in the audio and entertainment sectors while strengthening the association among our market-leading brands,” said Dinesh C. Paliwal, Harman’s Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. “Our products entertain and inform a rich cross section of customers, whether around the home, on the road, or on the stage, and our integration expertise will increasingly make this a seamless experience.”

The campaign was developed for Harman corporate communications by Mars Advertising of Southfield, Michigan.

http://www.harman.com/advertising.aspx

I'm glad to see someone other than BOSE attempting to make the average person aware of their presence... I think it can only be good for the industry...

emaidel
09-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Pioneer did much the same thing in the late 70's. Its then president, the late Bernie Mitchell, said he wanted Pioneer "at the tip of everyone's tongue" by the time the ad campaign was finished. He went way beyond the mainstream magazines (Stereo Review, High Fidelity, Audio Magazine, etc.) and advertised in TIME, Newsweek and even People Magazine. It was a hugely successful effort to educate the unwashed masses as to the advantages of component audio equipment over the cheaper compacts and consoles many Americans owned at the time.

Bernie was a brilliant man who is sorely missed in this industry. I applaud Harman Kardon for taking a similar approach today.

nightflier
09-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Well they certainly have the cash to do it....

elapsed
09-25-2008, 06:41 PM
"The Harman International family of brands spans some 15 leading names including AKG, Audioaccess, Becker, BSS, Crown, dbx, DigiTech, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Revel, QNX, Soundcraft and Studer."

There's some big names in there.. And with the market in turnmoil, I would expect it will be a tough time for audiophile brands for a few years to come. Harmon International needs all the marketing they can get, it's my opinion that they've been slipping behind the competition for the past couple of years, especially in their receiver technologies, so here's hoping they can increase their marketing share to pay for more R&D.

One year ago this week their stock was sitting at $112.73. This week they hit $32.16, their lowest in 5 years.

cheers,
elapsed

pixelthis
09-25-2008, 10:27 PM
"The Harman International family of brands spans some 15 leading names including AKG, Audioaccess, Becker, BSS, Crown, dbx, DigiTech, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Revel, QNX, Soundcraft and Studer."

There's some big names in there.. And with the market in turnmoil, I would expect it will be a tough time for audiophile brands for a few years to come. Harmon International needs all the marketing they can get, it's my opinion that they've been slipping behind the competition for the past couple of years, especially in their receiver technologies, so here's hoping they can increase their marketing share to pay for more R&D.

One year ago this week their stock was sitting at $112.73. This week they hit $32.16, their lowest in 5 years.

cheers,
elapsed


That is just from the collapsing markets, economy, and onset of the decline of civilization.
GM stock is eight bucks!
A very popular soft drink company in the fifties decided that they didnt need to advertise, they were gone in a few years.
Coke and Pepsi dont spend all of that money for nothing, if they dont keep their name out there they will vanish, the public being fickle and all.
I am surprized that teh audio companies do as well as they do, considering theire elitist approach to advertising:1:

Auricauricle
09-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Letsee.... Harman International Harvester will be putting ads in The Economist, Fortune and Time to broaden their customer base....

The Economist, Fortune....sounds like niche marketing to me.

Sounds like someone's beating a lame horse.

Mr Peabody
09-26-2008, 09:19 PM
I believe Elapsed nailed this one. I haven't been to Circuit City but some one hear said they dropped HK when they picked up Denon. Denon is in almost every big box store while I can't think of one that carries HK. HK used to be tops in receivers until HT became hot, then HK fell behind. Infinity at one time was a leader in that mass market price range, now their product is pretty bad. Although the car product seems to be hanging in there. Infinity used to have a stair step approach to home speakers, Studio Monitor, RS then Kappa. I just may not be aware of it but I don't think they make anything beyond their HT speaker stuff. A few here seem to think the Primus sounds alright for the money but the last $400.00 bookshelf I tried, forget the series, sucked, I sent them back. If this is the way Harmon runs these lines I have to be suspect of Levinson and their other notable lines. Revel was getting good press for a while. I haven't heard anything about them recently, I think the new and curiosity wore off. I heard a $10k pair of Revel driven by Levinson a few years back and was very under whelmed. I couldn't figure how they expected to sell something that bad for $10k.

I don't know if management changed or some one else bought Harmon but when they moved from California to the East coast it seems they have been going down hill ever since. Whatever the cause they sure aren't the company they were. From their lack of representation in the market place and under achiever products I'd have to say Harmon is hurting.

Ajani
09-27-2008, 02:52 AM
I believe Elapsed nailed this one. I haven't been to Circuit City but some one hear said they dropped HK when they picked up Denon. Denon is in almost every big box store while I can't think of one that carries HK. HK used to be tops in receivers until HT became hot, then HK fell behind. Infinity at one time was a leader in that mass market price range, now their product is pretty bad. Although the car product seems to be hanging in there. Infinity used to have a stair step approach to home speakers, Studio Monitor, RS then Kappa. I just may not be aware of it but I don't think they make anything beyond their HT speaker stuff. A few here seem to think the Primus sounds alright for the money but the last $400.00 bookshelf I tried, forget the series, sucked, I sent them back. If this is the way Harmon runs these lines I have to be suspect of Levinson and their other notable lines. Revel was getting good press for a while. I haven't heard anything about them recently, I think the new and curiosity wore off. I heard a $10k pair of Revel driven by Levinson a few years back and was very under whelmed. I couldn't figure how they expected to sell something that bad for $10k.

I don't know if management changed or some one else bought Harmon but when they moved from California to the East coast it seems they have been going down hill ever since. Whatever the cause they sure aren't the company they were. From their lack of representation in the market place and under achiever products I'd have to say Harmon is hurting.

While I'll agree wtih you that their market share has fallen (at least for their mass market products like Infinity and Harmon Kardon) I have to totally disagree with your assessment of Revel and speculation about Levinson.... Just check out the Revel link below and you'll see that their Ultima 2 Series is getting fantastic reviews all around...

http://www.revelspeakers.com/

Cost No Object Product of the Year by the Absolute Sound... Both Floorstanders rated Class A in Stereophile... and both their other 2 Speaker lines: The Performa and Concerta have received tremendous critical acclaim (The $1500 Concerta Floorstander is still the cheapest full range Class B Speaker in Stereophile and on The Absolute Sound's Editor's Choice Awards (it was also Product of the year in 2005).. The Performa F52 is also in the Editor's Choice Awards and was Product of the Year in 2006)... It's fine that you don't personally like the sound of Revel, but they have still been doing extremely well with with critics (in both the US and abroad, HiFi and HT Mags)... As for Levinson: to say that you are suspicious of their quality because you don't like a $400 pair of Infinity speakers is quite a stretch...

Mr Peabody
09-27-2008, 04:57 AM
Don't twist what I said around, I didn't base my assessment on one pair of speakers, I said I was suspect of Levinson and Harmon's other lines based on Harmon product market decline overall. And their lack of being able to keep up lines like Infinity and Harmon Kardon. This didn't happen overnight, why would a corporation build one or two lines while letting the rest of the family die on the vine. My presumption is if there is neglect or lack of talent in some of their lines then it might be across the board.

I wonder how many of those reviewers are now using Revel in their reference systems and more importantly how many actual dealers carry the line. Most manufacturers link to good reviews but they don't matter unless product is leaving the warehouse. I don't see Revel taking the market by storm nor do I see them in systems posted by members of various audio forums. Not that I've seen every single system. On the other hand in the ones I've looked at I don't see B&W having anything to worry about yet. That actually has me baffled why so much B&W but that's another thread.

If others who read this would mention if Revel, or Levinson is available in their own area that would be of interest. Also I plan to check the website for my closest dealer out of curiosity and post back.

Mr Peabody
09-27-2008, 06:14 AM
My state only has 4 Revel dealers, only one is in a large city, Kansas City, two are in relatively small towns and one is just a installer. I checked my neighboring state of Illinois and they have 12 dealers which sounds good until you realize they are all either in Chicago or a suburb of.

Dynaudio who is only a speaker manufacturer and not nearly the corporate resources has 2 dealers in my state, one hear in St.L and one in KC. Illinois shows 6 dealers with half outside the Chicago area.

B&W's search is a bit different but for my state there is a choice of 8 cities/towns and I know there are two dealers in just my town. B&W also has more lines and covers more price ranges but they also must have a good rep network.

This is probably much to do about nothing because I know there is much more to carrying a product than pure sound quality for most stores but I don't feel Revel setting the audio world on fire is accurate either. The line has to create a buzz or demand, look at how fast Oppo became recognized.

Ajani
09-27-2008, 06:28 AM
My state only has 4 Revel dealers, only one is in a large city, Kansas City, two are in relatively small towns and one is just a installer. I checked my neighboring state of Illinois and they have 12 dealers which sounds good until you realize they are all either in Chicago or a suburb of.

Dynaudio who is only a speaker manufacturer and not nearly the corporate resources has 2 dealers in my state, one hear in St.L and one in KC. Illinois shows 6 dealers with half outside the Chicago area.

B&W's search is a bit different but for my state there is a choice of 8 cities/towns and I know there are two dealers in just my town. B&W also has more lines and covers more price ranges but they also must have a good rep network.

This is probably much to do about nothing because I know there is much more to carrying a product than pure sound quality for most stores but I don't feel Revel setting the audio world on fire is accurate either. The line has to create a buzz or demand, look at how fast Oppo became recognized.

No one ever said or even implied that... Obviously the Harmon group is having a problem with sales... what I disagreed with is the speculation that they have a quality decline that has affected sales... Since I can see no basis for that thought process...

And as we all know, sale is not an indicator of quality or BOSE would clearly be the best audio brand and Soundlabs (like what E-Stat has) would be utter crap...

My nearest 3 dealers (St. Maarten, Puerto Rico and Jamaica) all carry Revel and Levinson, not that that means anything...

As to why Revel may have low sales despite great reviews in the major review mags: Well frankly, apart from the new(ish) Ultima 2 line, all their speakers are large and ugly... I've seen constant criticism, in the same review mags that praise the sound quality of the Revels, about the size and looks of the speakers.. and especially when you compare them to brands like Monitor Audio, B&W and other British brands that make an effort to be stylish and have some WAF...

Mr Peabody
09-27-2008, 07:14 AM
While quality decline may, or may not, be across the board in Harmon products my impression is that there is a definite quality decline in both Infinity and Harmon Kardon. Infinity home has lost focus and the line is nothing to what it was 20 years ago both in quality and products offered. Pretty much the same can be said for Harmon Kardon. Most receiver companies transitioned into home theater without too much trouble, HK had some of the finest receivers on the market before HT and certainly ample resources, one would think if anyone could have made the transition they could have. I don't even see Crutchfield carrying HK any more. Now that I've gotten into this I'm going to have to see where HK is.

This is my impression and it is sad to me, I have no ax to grind. I sold Infinity in late 80's, early 90's, used a pair of Kappa 7's in my system for years. I think I transitioned into my Dyn's early 2k. I attended a training session with Harmon when we picked up their receiver line. I was sold on these products and did well with them. In Spring and Fall I still break out my Infinity racing jacket.

filecat13
09-27-2008, 03:36 PM
There's obvious support for both your points of view, so you may be talking past each other just a bit.

The hugeness of the Harman International family is both a blessing and a curse. As forward-thinking and ambitious as Dr. Sydney Harman was in amassing this electronics empire, he frankly just ran out of steam as he got older. When he thought he had a successor, the successor was inadequate, so he came back to do a course correction. The problem is he just didn't have the energy or vision to do what was needed, and it was clear he'd rather be doing something else. He nearly sold the company to a bunch of investment sharks who would have almost certainly bled it dry and left it for dead.

Now, with Dinesh C. Paliwal at the helm we can hope for better, more focused leadership. My ignorant guess is that this ad campaign is the "safe" opening move in a renewed focus on selling to the consumer. I pray there's a stage two to this that actually converts awareness into sales.

filecat13
09-27-2008, 03:54 PM
Being in SoCal, I must have a myopic view of some of this, but Harman brands are easily accessible here. True, some are harder to find than others, and the mistakes of the past are impossible to ignore, but I do believe there's an effort to correct those. If there isn't, then Harman is in big trouble.

I spoke with a buddy from the Bay Area who came down to the Harman campus in Northridge, CA to decide if he and his partner would become Harman dealers in their company. It looks like they'll end up as both JBL Synthesis dealers and as Revel dealers. They were very excited about what they saw and heard, and they said both JBL and Revel execs treated them very well.

There appears to be some very good JBL consumer gear coming into the market that addresses the shortcomings of low-to-moderate cost consumer-level stuff over the past decade. Where it will sell (other than on the Internet) is anybody's guess, but both JBL and Revel appear to be strong brands with solid product lines.

HK and Infinity are ? marks, though I think Infinity is more difficult to figure out than HK. There are new HK receivers on the way, and they atone for some of the missing bits of recent products. The conservative power ratings remain in place, so anyone buying an HK receiver will still be assured of getting all the power rated and then some.

Infinity does seem directionless, though it's by no means totally neglected. It has some proprietary drivers and network designs, and a few unique enclosure features. But it might be the Oldsmobile of Harman International. Do they really need another speaker line?

As for HK speakers, they've never been anything to talk about and are just a brand affinity stand in. I think the best thing there is to do nothing.

Harman International absorbed and killed a lot of quality audio brands, including some I still own, but I don't begrudge them that because frequently this resulted in stronger products from the remaining brands. As much as I love my Citation gear and Audax speakers, their deaths produced better feature sets in Lexicon products and in JBL tweeters.

If Mr. Paliwal can get the individual brand execs in line and if he can forge a clear marketing and distribution plan for Harman, then I think the future has great potential for Harman International. If he can't, then the purchasing of a few display ads and online banners will just be part of the swan song of potentially the strongest and most compelling electronics conglomerate in the world.

Mr Peabody
09-27-2008, 08:06 PM
Infinity had speakers from $199.00 to $40K I don't understand why Harmon launched Revel. Unless they thought a new name might be excepted by audio snobs more so than Infinity. All HK would need is a good line of gear to come out and turn some heads. Onkyo was doing alright but the launch of the 605 and siblings put them on the map in a big way. HK needs to do something like that. Also, in the day, audio had sales people that knew the product, it wasn't sold in warehouse stores like BB and CC. HK shouldn't bend the truth but they need to make larger power receivers to compete. When you see a Yamaha rated at 100x7 which might do that with one channel driven and a HK rated at
45x7 people aren't going to give HK a second look. There's no longer a person there to say turn them both on and let's compare, HK is all discrete circuitry were possible and has a true high current output, that's assuming they still are. We had to sell a HK receiver rated at 50x2 for $549.00 in the 80's where customers could buy a 50 watt Kenwood for $199.00 or 100x2 for maybe $299.00. But explaining why the difference and once the customer heard what a 50 watt HK can do, those with the budget and cared took the HK.

I too would like to see them bounce back.

Ajani
09-27-2008, 08:50 PM
Infinity had speakers from $199.00 to $40K I don't understand why Harmon launched Revel. Unless they thought a new name might be excepted by audio snobs more so than Infinity. All HK would need is a good line of gear to come out and turn some heads. Onkyo was doing alright but the launch of the 605 and siblings put them on the map in a big way. HK needs to do something like that. Also, in the day, audio had sales people that knew the product, it wasn't sold in warehouse stores like BB and CC. HK shouldn't bend the truth but they need to make larger power receivers to compete. When you see a Yamaha rated at 100x7 which might do that with one channel driven and a HK rated at
45x7 people aren't going to give HK a second look. There's no longer a person there to say turn them both on and let's compare, HK is all discrete circuitry were possible and has a true high current output, that's assuming they still are. We had to sell a HK receiver rated at 50x2 for $549.00 in the 80's where customers could buy a 50 watt Kenwood for $199.00 or 100x2 for maybe $299.00. But explaining why the difference and once the customer heard what a 50 watt HK can do, those with the budget and cared took the HK.

I too would like to see them bounce back.

I suspect that's what happened.... Audio Snobs were probably more willing to accept a new line of "High-End" speakers at exclusive dealers, than expensive speakers from Infinity...

Frankly, I think Harmon has too many brands... worse yet, too many overlapping brands... JBL, Revel and Infinity all produce similar looking (and according to at least one review I read: similar sounding) speakers in the same price range (Sub $2K)... I'd rather see them merge into one line or maybe just have one line with speakers under $4K and another with speakers over $4K....

HK and Lexicon have no overlap... I'm not sure about Levinson and Lexicon though...

Basically I'd suggest either having one Speaker and one Electronics line Or having 2 of each: one high end line and one affordable line...

Feanor
09-28-2008, 04:13 AM
I...

Frankly, I think Harmon has too many brands... worse yet, too many overlapping brands... JBL, Revel and Infinity all produce similar looking (and according to at least one review I read: similar sounding) speakers in the same price range (Sub $2K)... I'd rather see them merge into one line or maybe just have one line with speakers under $4K and another with speakers over $4K....

...

A few years ago Dr. Floyd Toole was recruited as research director for Harmon. (He might be retired now.) Toole had very definite ideas, based on extensive and rigorous research, about how a loudspeaker should perform; e.g. flat frequency response, wide dispersion. No doubt his influence accounts for most of the similarity of sound those different brands.

Ajani
09-28-2008, 06:11 AM
A few years ago Dr. Floyd Toole was recruited as research director for Harmon. (He might be retired now.) Toole had very definite ideas, based on extensive and rigorous research, about how a loudspeaker should perform; e.g. flat frequency response, wide dispersion. No doubt his influence accounts for most of the similarity of sound those different brands.

I totally agree... when you check out both the aesthetics and the materials used on some of these speakers, you can see the shared research... and since they all share the same excellent speaker testing/design facility, we should expect similarity...

I just question why they keep so many lines of very similar products... why not just merge them into say Revel (High end), JBL (entry level) and Mark Levinson (High End) and HK (entry level) or even more crazy rename everything Harmon Kardon... or maybe have all Speakers be named Revel and all Electronics Mark Levinson...

filecat13
09-28-2008, 12:40 PM
As a counterpoint it'd be tough to narrow the JBL brand. They'd need to keep it for the Pro market (sound reinforcement, studio mastering, and cinema), the auto market, the marine market, and the high end Synthesis in-home theater market. Plus the consumer JBL brand has speakers that cost more than the most expensive Revels and cost less than the cheapest Infinity lines. Plus JBL is a worldwide brand while the others are not. There are many high end JBLs sold in Europe and Asia that never come to North America.

I still think (and agree) that Infinity is to Harman as Oldsmobile was to GM. It's time to go. That's the easiest overlap to clean up. Maybe since the lower Revels share so much technology with the Infinity line they could create a single Revel Infinity Series and be done with it.

Ajani
09-28-2008, 12:46 PM
As a counterpoint it'd be tough to narrow the JBL brand. They'd need to keep it for the Pro market (sound reinforcement, studio mastering, and cinema), the auto market, the marine market, and the high end Synthesis in-home theater market. Plus the consumer JBL brand has speakers that cost more than the most expensive Revels and cost less than the cheapest Infinity lines. Plus JBL is a worldwide brand while the others are not. There are many high end JBLs sold in Europe and Asia that never come to North America.

I still think (and agree) that Infinity is to Harman as Oldsmobile was to GM. It's time to go. That's the easiest overlap to clean up. Maybe since the lower Revels share so much technology with the Infinity line they could create a single Revel Infinity Series and be done with it.

Yep... they could at least scrap Infinity... JBL would be hard to do away with, because it is probably their most famous brand... Revel 'seems' to be their most respected audiophile brand (currently)... but Infinity could definitely go...

Mr Peabody
09-28-2008, 04:58 PM
I haven't shopped around lately but last I knew Infinity was still doing pretty well in the car audio market and maybe that will be their nitch. Infinity had more of that market than JBL. Infinity's Perfect series of aluminum subs rocked. They can't seem to get their act together on amps though. I haven't tried their digital amps but I hear good things about them. The last Infinity amp I bought had the Kappa name but the build quality of the amp was bad. The sound was decent and it didn't die, unfortunately, but it sure wasn't worth the suggested retail.