Major Upgrade Advice!

[grammicci14]

Time to upgrade!!!
So I'm looking to upgrade my system. I won't even go into current due to it's thrown togetherness and inferiority.
Where should I start? Speakers first? amp?
Budget might be in the 4-6K$ range.
I don't plan on doing all at once but over 6-12 months.
Tube amp? Solid?
Speakers?
I do own some Senn 650's with a Headroom amp if that means anything?
I have heard some older Klipsch, heard good things about Paradigms.
I'm looking for that warm yummy goodness?
With so many reviews and what not I just don't know where to start.
The Dynaco tube amps look sweet but?
Help Help Help
Cheers!

[elapsed]

Hey grammicci, welcome to AR! Sounds like you have a great budget to build a solid system. Some questions to get you started -

1. What are the dimensions of your room?
2. What are your sources (e.g. CD Player, DVD Player, turntable)?
3. Are you planning to upgrade your sources as well (e.g. new CD Player, DAC)
4. What type of music do you listen to?
5. In this a two-channel stereo system or a surround home theatre system?
6. Is the system primarily for music, sports, video games, movies?

Great headphones, the Senn 650's are on my shopping list next year, along with a Naim Headline amp

cheers,
elapsed

[grammicci14]

Room-20Lx14Wx10H
Sources-CD player(will upgrade), Turntable
Music-Jazz, rock, jam, bluegrass
Two channel for sure
MUsic only!!!
PRoblem with room is that we got furniture. Furniture that will be in the way of sound and not make any system ideal.
System will be on one end of room with sofa along one long wall, creating a dampening effect on the left speaker.
I'm not complaingin considering the wife okayed the upgrade:ihih: . Sofa must stay though.
She loves vintage stuff and style so going that route would be fun, just not sure on reliability or availability to maintain equipment?
Good local deals on used Klipsch, just not sure if I could get some good listen time before buying?
Klipsch,Tube amps= warmy, fuzzy, goodness?
Cheers, JG

[grammicci14]

I think clarity and transparencey is more important than shear volume. If that helps with anybodies feedback?

[basite]

For 4-6k you can have a great system, and an even greater system if you go used and shop right :)

what kind of sound are you trying to achieve? rather on the warmer end, or on the brighter end, or right in between (neutral)...
there is plenty of gear out there, and we'll be happy to help you :)

btw, you mentioned Klipsch: Tubed Mcintosh gear makes an awesome combination with Klipsch...

and may I recommend Thiel? (I'm biased :p); which also makes an excellent combo with Mcintosh...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Certain tube gear is also magic with Martin Logan. The combo could be out of your range though, it takes power to push those babies. You could do something like the Purity which is powered and only use a tube preamp.

I'm partial to Conrad Johnson tube gear. I also like VTL

Mac SS or tube is a good way to go.

You might take a look at Dynaudio's Excite line of speakers.

I haven't heard any but I've heard good things and they have looks, Shanling.

There are so many ways to go, I'd suggest trying to listen to as much gear as you can find. Especially listen to the Klipsch before buying you may find that isn't the way to go.

[bobsticks]

Hey Grammicci,

As an owner of Martin Logans I would not suggest them in your circumstances. Of course, Mr. Peabody is right in that with the right associated equipment they'll get you the warm sound that you like...but they are very room dependent. I've got SL3s, which are the smallest ML's that are really worth the money, and in my 20 x 12 room they sound constrained. And, they don't play well with furniture.

Skimming through Audiogon I have a couple of suggestions that fall within your price range and might work to reach your stated goals in your environment.

http://pic5.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1221504224.jpg
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1226686122

The Kefs are very warm sounding speakers (I've got a lower-on-the-food-chain set in a second system) that do a variety of things well. They're great a all levels of volume and they're front-ported which will make placement easier in challenging situations...plus look at 'em, that's WAF!

There's also a nice pair of Focals that would be a viable alternative: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1226760785

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1217814366.jpg

You want tubes? Why make things difficult? Jolida makes nice and very underrated stuff...100 watts of tube power, easy to obtain EL34 tubes, multiple inputs and a vintage look. Yes, McIntosh and CV make great stuff (I'm a Mac man myself) but the best stuff is a budget-breaker.

http://pic5.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1221587399.jpg

You're gonna need a phono-stage and while this is not necessarily my area of expertise I know enough to know that Tim Paravacini is considered by many golden ears to be, well, golden.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1226521848

Prolly not gonna go wrong with this (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1225668066) either. Rega has long been considered a giant-killer. The new Marantz units get good reviews though I can't say I've heard any myself.

In any case, at your budget you have many options and those are the kinds of things I would be looking at. The challenge you'll face is to find pieces that will properly integrate into your room, which is hard enough under optimal conditions but will require some thought when otherwise.

Good luck. I look forward to reading about your travels on this little road of madness and make sure to have fun along the way. Welcome to the forum.

---sticks

[blackraven]

My favorite speakers are Magnepans and Thiels. Both these brands may have what your looking for. Take a listen to the Magnepan QR1.6's for about $1800. For tube amps consider Van Alstine. He makes great hybrid gear. I also like the Parasound HaloA21. Mr. P's suggestion of Conrad Johnson is excellent as well.

[RGA]

I would recommend you consider Audio Note loudspeakers and possibly Grant Fidelity front end electronics to meet your budget and also your vintage "looks" appeal. I have found no better loudspeaker and they're room friendly - they can be put hard into corners or near wall or you can run them free standing with or without heavy toe in. They're easy to drive - designed with sets and they don't need subwoofers.

You can read about the AN E in the August 2008 Stereophile, The AN J/Spe at Dagogo.com http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteANJ-SPe.html along with several other reviewers there writing about them.

The AN J is $5,000 and another $500 for stands so it may be pushing your budget - but that's before negotiating price.

You'll see my review of Grant Fidelity coming in the next couple of months.

Good luck in the search.

Richard Austen.

[grammicci14]

Bobsticks, great stuff!
Keep it coming folks.
So I tests drove some paradigm studio 60v2 today.
Definatly crisp, crystally, smooth, and all that I would have really expected. I hair lacking on the low end although a bit nitpicky. At the price though they are tempting. They are used but ever so slightly and they are coming from a dealer.$700!!???
All reviewers of these seemed to rave, but I am trying not to just impulse buy the first decent deal to come along.
Problem is I live in a realativly small town and I have to drive 2+ hours to listen at various dealers.
More opinions welcome, especially on the paradigms since I just gave a listen.

[Worf101]

Now I have to clean drool, drool I say, off of the ole keyboard. Man that is some pretty gear... Ohhh Me Wants!!!!!

Da Worfster

[Hyfi]

You might take a look at Dynaudio's Excite line of speakers.



Did you listen to these guys yet? Side by side with Audience? I do find it hard that they would sound better, just different.

I would suggest buying the closeouts of the Audience line at a good price.

[blackraven]

Take a look at the Paradigm Signature Series. They are much better than the Studio series. I had the chance to audition the Studio 60 and 100's against the S6's & 8's.

Also consider PSB synchrony's. They have better bass and a warmer sound compared to the Paradigm Studio's and S series.

[grammicci14]

So this is what I'm eyeballing after some good feedback.

Paradigm studio 60 v2 (local, affordable, sound pretty damn good)

Grant Fidelity- CD-cd-327A, tube amp either: A-348, A-88, or A-534)? Feedback
and possibly the GF phone pre amp?

Also looking to upgrade turntable, just need somthing solid and RELIABLEwith killer sound?

[blackraven]

Here's a link to the Thiels and PSB's http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/CS2_4/cs2_4nws.html
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony

[bobsticks]

Now I have to clean drool, drool I say, off of the ole keyboard. Man that is some pretty gear... Ohhh Me Wants!!!!!

Da Worfster

Good lookin' stuff, idn't it? I'll refer back to my old axiom about relativity. It's all situational, the room is gonna be challenging and might as well throw ol' girl a bone with the WAF factor since she's playin' nice.

I like blackraven's points on the Paradigm and the Van Alstine---and btw, blackie, it's good to see you posting---but I disagree with recommending Maggies. Like my ML's they're not gonna play to their best in a less-than-optimal room. I like what I've heard of Theils too, but I've never had in any in my house so I'll reserve comment.

I just get the feeling that this is going to be a room with speakers up against the wall...y'know. Difficult stuff. Hell, prolly the best recommendation has been RGA's Audio Notes but at 5k plus that's another budget-breaker. But he gets the point, you've got to grab the tool for the job.

[Feanor]

So this is what I'm eyeballing after some good feedback.

Paradigm studio 60 v2 (local, affordable, sound pretty damn good)

Grant Fidelity- CD-cd-327A, tube amp either: A-348, A-88, or A-534)? Feedback
and possibly the GF phone pre amp?

Also looking to upgrade turntable, just need somthing solid and RELIABLEwith killer sound?

Grammicci, for a start I'd forget the A-534 with the likes of the Paradigms; not enough power. A 10 wpc amp might work with very high efficiency speakers like certain AN models, (RGA would be the first to agree), but to me it seems skimpy with the Paradigms.

The Studio 60's are perhaps a "bargoon" at their price but I do adhere to the general strategy of putting a bit more into the speakers than amplification in the case of middle-range hifi equipment. I'd look to the Paradigm Signature or the PSB Synchrony lines (amongst others) for a bit more refinement.

Everyone to his own taste, right?? But I hate the "bottles-on-a-box" look of so much tube equipment. I'm not against tubes in general, (I use a tube preamp), but for power amplification I'd go with something closer to mainstream in the <$2000 range (or any range for that matter). In any case, looks aren't a big consideration for me.

Used equipment is always worth considering because the potential saving is very big.

[blackraven]

Well said Feanor! If you really want tubes, consider doing a SS amp and a tube preamp or a hybrid like the Van Alstine Fet Vavle amps which I am considering buying.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/fetvalve_amps.htm

[RGA]

The Paradigms are so so - I would look at the 100V2 on the used market over the 60 - or the 40V2 with a sub. But your budget has more room and frankly I'd skip Paradigm and PSB with the money in your budget. Good lesser known front ends are available for less money - like Grant Fidelity. I have only reviewed the Rita and it has more than enough power to drive virtually any speaker - but it's not cheap. I don't know how their lower powered amps would do - but power is a function of the power supply more than just the watt rating. The OTO can easily drive the Quad 2905 for example despite 10 watts.

Still simply look at higher efficiency speakers - they tend to sound better anyway.

The AN K and Reference 3a MM De Capo are under 3k and both need little power - 10 watts - both sound better than the Paradigms and PSBs. The AN K for example sounds better than S8 - it's not as full range and won't play as loud but in every other way sounds better and you have about $5k leftover - I'm sure you can buy 2 mighty darn good subwoofers for $5k that will blow away the bass of the S8. And while I don't love sub matching due to driver integration problems - you have those problems with the S8 anyway. The AN K is a sealed box design and in corners will get you 36hz. 45hz solid, tuneful etc. Similar to the De Capo in terms of bass. The De Capo is darker sounding which might be preferable as they will be friendlier to lesser front end electronics and solid state gear generally.

The advantage here though is that the AN K and De Capo give you more choice so you don;t need to buy an amp based on power. You can buy an AN K at $3k and partner it up with a SET from Grant Fidelity for $1k.

I'd also look at Omega Loudspeakers if you really want to go on the cheap - I've heard a single driver speaker recently and if Omega sounds similar - it might be a cheap budget option. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html

Still if the max budget is $6k the AN J and a nice Grant fidelity tube amp IMO is the way to go. Granted I am biased but Paradigm and PSB just don't play at that level.
If you are handy I would suggest the AN E Kit and build the speakers yourself for a lot less. http://www.audionotekits.com/

[Mr Peabody]

I have not heard the Excite yet but they have been designed to be the easiest Dyn's to drive to date. The dealer has some in now, they say the Excite sound a lot like the Audience. I was extremely impressed by the Focus bookshelf speaker.

[Mr Peabody]

My experience has led me to a different conclusion, I have yet to hear a good sounding "high efficient" speaker. I would like to hear the AN's some day though. Is AN still in the market like they were? It seems their distribution is getting strange and they are more difficult to find.

What is the story on Grant Fidelity? This is the first I've heard of them. Have they been around long?

[blackraven]

I have to disagree about the PSB synchrony's. They sound much better than Paradigms and are worth a look. My friend has a pair matched with a Belle's HotRod amp, an AR tube preamp and Marantz SA8001 CDP and they sound great. He replaced his tower Triangles ( forgot the model ) with the PSB's.
Also consider The Monitor Audio GS 60's and PL-100's. They need a lot of power though.

If you have $6K to spend, figure $2-3K for speaks, $2-3K for amp/pre and $1K for CDP. In reality, $6K is not a lot to work with for a high end system. You really need closer to $8K because a very good amp/pre will set you back at least $4-5K unless you go used.

You might want to consider a nice integrated amp like the Cambridge Audio 840A for around $1500, that would leave more money for speaks. If your looking for a warmer sound consider the budget hybrid amp and preamp from Vincent Audio. That combo would set you back about $2K. Check them out at audioadvisor.com

[Mr Peabody]

I know I am the minority here but it don't make sense to spend $3k on speakers and $1k on the source, that's a bit out of balance. If the source don't pull off and reproduce what's on that disc nothing else down the chain will allow you to hear it because it just isn't there. I'd say at least $2k to get into a decent CD player. You can buy a pair of Dynaudio Focus series for well under $3k that will perform well beyond that $3k price range. The last time I was in the store looking for gear we played several integrated and separates through the Focus bookshelf and they were outstanding. We also used the same speakers to listen between a T+A $5k and a $3k CD player. We were able to detect the differences. There's no reason to blow half your budget on speakers then have to go mid-fi on the electronics. It takes a bit of matching, listening and shopping around. It's best to spread the money evenly throughout the system but if I was going to lean one or the other my money would be on a good source.

Here's an interesting integrated on special, only one:
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/81431

[blackraven]

You make a good point Mr. P, but his budget is $4-6K. Lets say he spends 2k on speakers, $2500-3k on an amp and preamp, that leaves
$1-1.5K for a source. Spending any less on an amp and preamp will not do a 2-3K source justice either.

After hearing Van Alstines DAC today, I would consider buying the Marantz 5001 CDP for $300 and using it as a transport with the VA DAC for $800. It sounded better than my 840c which is no slouch and would it would pair well with $3k speakers.

The bottom line is that you need more money to really pair high quality speakers, amp/pre and CDP. With his budget there has to be some compromise. There are several good CDP's in the 1K range that would do well in a higher end system. And of course you could always upgrade the source at a later date being as it would be the cheapest part in the system. I would rather buy better speakers now and not have to replace them later. Just my opinion for what ever thats worth.

[Mr Peabody]

I read your thread and was wondering what price range his gear is in.

[blackraven]

His most expensive amp is a vavle hybrid -the FetValve 550 at $2200.
The 350 sells for about $1800. His preamps are very reasonably priced as well. His DAC's are $800 for the SS and $1500 for the Valve hybrid. I also listened to his phono preamp and was impressed with it as well. In addition he had an older phillips tuner that he modified with valves and it sounded phono quality.

http://www.avahifi.com/

[jrhymeammo]

If I had your budget and was to start all over again, then I would go with:

Pathos Classic One mk3 ~$1.8K
http://www.audiosalon.co.uk/Images/pathos/classic1.jpg

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1225824348&/Pathos-Classic-One-MK-III

Silverline Audio $2500
I can't believe no one has picked them up yet.
They employ one of the best drivers offered by Dynaudio. Easy enough to be driven by 10 watters in the future.

http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1217288819.jpg

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1225654557&/Silverline-SR17.5-


Technics SL-12XX from KAB. $500+

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/101019833/Technics_SL_1200_MK6_Limited_Edition_Turntable.jpg

There are tons of audiophiles who stands against Direct Drive tables, but they have not tried Technics themselves. Just listen to those who has actually tried. Great TT with precision speed and no noise what-so-ever. KAB offers alot of aftermarket parts and their QC will insure a quality deck.

Denon 103-R and Zupreme Headshell less than $400 total.

http://www.phonophono.de/images/produkte/300/300_denon_dl103r.jpg

Great cartridge and headshell. With Zupreme headshell, Technics's tonearm mass will be great enough to play with this cart(low compliance).

Tom Evan's Groove Phono Pre $1800
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1223953221&/Tom-Evans-Groove-Exceptional

Respected to be one of the greatest phono pre.

http://www.audiorevelation.com/cre/images/groove1_450.jpg

You can always look for a cheaper phonopre such as the PS Audio GCPH with balanced outputs and go for a Shelter 501mk2. That'll keep you just around your $6K.

JRA

[the hand of boredom]

I like RGA's recommendation of Reference 3A, the Dulcets will go for about $2K, less if you can find them used, DeCapo's I think will run you $3K, and will their non-existent x-overs, 3As are very transparent and easy to drive with tubes.

You can google Raysonic SP120 integrated and might still find this 50WPC tuber for a grand, leaves you $2-3K for a subwoofer and a gift for the wife.

I had Paradigm Studio 40s 5 years ago, my paps has 'em now. I believe they offer great value, but there are many other speakers that can offer more. I preferred the sonic quality of the Monitor Audio Bronze 3 to the 40s at half the cost. Just my tastes, I guess.

For $700, you will get alot in the 60. But, if you go out and listen to many other speakers, you will hear where the 60s stand up against the likes of Dulcets, Martin Logans, and the like.

[RGA]

My experience has led me to a different conclusion, I have yet to hear a good sounding "high efficient" speaker. I would like to hear the AN's some day though. Is AN still in the market like they were? It seems their distribution is getting strange and they are more difficult to find.

What is the story on Grant Fidelity? This is the first I've heard of them. Have they been around long?

AN is now being distributed by one of the largest audiophile places in the United States - Audio Federation out of Boulder Colorado who does some of the best show reports going. They also carry Marten Design, SoundLabs (the best of the best in panels), Kharma, Emm Labs/Meitner, Audio Aero, Edge, Lamm Industries, Walker and Brinkman turntables, http://www.audiofederation.com/

Grant Fidelity has only been around 2 years and are based in Canada - they have rebadged some Chinese made gear to their specs - The Rita I reviewed as part of a system and it was later awarded a product of the year for soundstage.

HE speakers that are horn based can be problematic - but the AN's and the Tannoy Prestige speakers do not possess those issues. Check out the August issue of Stereophile - the reviewer, Art Dudley, has had the AN's for about a year now. They're not necessarily a blow you out the door speaker of impressive sonic attributes which can make them less of a standout at a show - but in the long haul I maintain that as of yet they have few equals and so far none for me on overal balance across a wide array of music. I've been saying that though for about 8 years now and finally the other reviewers out there are getting on board - they're simply too good to ignore despite their looks.

Read the last few show reports
http://www.theanalogdept.com/vsac08.htm

This report by 6moons talks about Grant Fidelity and Audio Note http://sixmoons.com/industryfeatures/vsac20083/vsac_2.html

Dagogo's editor http://dagogo.com/Events/2008RMAF/Coverage-I.html

You have to click just below each floor to get a separate report for that floor's equipment. A lot of excellent photos and some interesting comments http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2008/RMAF2008/report/1500/index.htm

I was not just hearing things - and if I was - so are a lot of other people. However good luck getting anything from them if you do want to place an order - the demand is so high they can not keep up - you will expect 6 month - to well over a year delays.

[Jimmy C]

Time to upgrade!!!
So I'm looking to upgrade my system. I won't even go into current due to it's thrown togetherness and inferiority.
Where should I start? Speakers first? amp?
Budget might be in the 4-6K$ range.
I don't plan on doing all at once but over 6-12 months.
Tube amp? Solid?
Speakers?
I do own some Senn 650's with a Headroom amp if that means anything?
I have heard some older Klipsch, heard good things about Paradigms.
I'm looking for that warm yummy goodness?
With so many reviews and what not I just don't know where to start.
The Dynaco tube amps look sweet but?
Help Help Help
Cheers!

...I was using the Studio 60s, v2 for almost 8 years. I feel they were an "OK" speaker, but your budget allows better.

Also, I don't think the 60s will fill the "warm and yummy" requisite.

I know you've got a lot to digest with all of the recommendations, but I figured I would chime in due to the fact that I like "warm and fuzzy" as well.

One more brand to look into (aaargh!) would be JMR (Reynaud). I'm no expert on their line of speakers (only heard mine, the Twin Sigs, now replaced by the Duets), but they are very satisfying and musically expressive - never heard a piano sound so "right", even on big (meaning: big $$$) rigs.

Bob Neill (Amherstaudio.com) would be the one to talk to, he sells Audio Note as well. According to him, both brands do music very well - albeit in different manners. ANs are more refined and detailed, the JMRs warmer. I suppose what I'm saying is that I trust his ears.

Caveats? If you are a detail freak, you may not like my Twins. Don't get me wrong, you can hear what's on the disc, it's just that I think more "woofer" than "tweeter" when listening to these. From what I have gleaned, the Duets move a bit more in the Audio Note direction.

Bass might not be enough for your preferences/room/music, but depending on what other components you choose (i.e., how much money is left over), you may move up the JMR line... I use a sub.

Basically, I would pass on the Studio 60s... not that they're bad, but I would find something with more long-term satisfaction.

[iGrant]

Grammicci, for a start I'd forget the A-534 with the likes of the Paradigms; not enough power. A 10 wpc amp might work with very high efficiency speakers like certain AN models, (RGA would be the first to agree), but to me it seems skimpy with the Paradigms.



Sorry for jumping in late on this thread, but The A-534 is a new 300B design using EL-34 driver tubes that allows it drive 86db speakers to decent levels and the Paradigms are in 90db+ range. Our flagship dealer in Calgary has sold most of the Paradigms (and Focal's) at some point with the A-534, including Studio 40's, 60's and 100's. They are Western Canada's largest Paradigm dealer. General Audio, ask for Rod, the General Manager.

Cheers,
Ian

ps, nice to read you a another Forum RGA. :)

[RGA]

Hi Grant

I've been posting on this forum since 1998 before the changeover.