Cambridge Audio Launches New Dacmagic

[Ajani]

Good news for audiophiles looking for more affordable DACs:

Cambridge Audio is Launching its New Dacmagic

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/04/cambridge-audio-intros-dacmagic-upsampling-digital-to-analog-con/

It has two sets of optical and coxial digital inputs + a USB input... has both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs... and is priced at $400...

[Feanor]

Good news for audiophiles looking for more affordable DACs:

Cambridge Audio is Launching its New Dacmagic

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/04/cambridge-audio-intros-dacmagic-upsampling-digital-to-analog-con/

It has two sets of optical and coxial digital inputs + a USB input... has both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs... and is priced at $400...

I'll need to read the specs more carefully but it looks a heck of a lot like this is the DAC section from their highly acclaimed C840 player with the bonus of USB input :thumbsup:. For $400 that would be super bargain. :20:

[Ajani]

I'll need to read the specs more carefully but it looks a heck of a lot like this is the DAC section from their highly acclaimed C840 player with the bonus of USB input :thumbsup:. For $400 that would be super bargain. :20:

Yep, that's what makes the product so interesting... the possibility that it may be up the standard of the 840C or at least the 740C + USB for only $400.... It would be a great option for those of us looking for a good dac, but not prepared to drop $1K on a Benchmark or PS Audio....

I just hope more HiFi brands will enter/re-enter the DAC market... with the rise of music servers, there is a bigger market than ever for external DACs...

[Ajani]

I hope products like this stimulate other brands to attack this price segment in the market... Maybe we'll oneday see a stripped down version of the Benchmark DAC1... one without the dual headphone amps and the volume control... given that Benchmark sells a single headphone amp for $450, then we might be able to see a much cheaper stripped down DAC1, maybe for $600??? Just Imagine the stir that would make in audio-circles, if you could get the legendary DAC1 (minus the headphone amp) for well under the $1K asking price...

[blackraven]

The difference between it and the 840c is that the 840c upsamples to 44/384

[nightflier]

But it does have balanced outs, not even the 740c has that, only the 840c. I don't know of any DAC under the $1K price point, much less the $500 price point, that has balanced outs.

Now, is it available in the US?

[Ajani]

But it does have balanced outs, not even the 740c has that, only the 840c. I don't know of any DAC under the $1K price point, much less the $500 price point, that has balanced outs.

Now, is it available in the US?

Both the PS Audio Digital link iii and Benchmark DAC1 have balanced outs and are under $1K... $995 & $975 respectively (LOL.... I guess that's not quite what you meant by under $1K)...

Yep, it's available in the US (well, it will be, when it's released)....

[Auricauricle]

Sounds like good news for those of us who aren't wild about the dedicated CD player idea....

[nightflier]

Both the PS Audio Digital link iii and Benchmark DAC1 have balanced outs and are under $1K... $995 & $975 respectively (LOL.... I guess that's not quite what you meant by under $1K)...

Which makes it just a hair over $1K more. I suppose with the Benchmark you get a headphone amplifier with it, but I hear you saying you'd rather it didn't have one.

Speaking of PS Audio and dedicated players, any word on their new ill-named (in my opinion) CD transport?

[Ajani]

Speaking of PS Audio and dedicated players, any word on their new ill-named (in my opinion) CD transport?

Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...

[nightflier]

Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...

So I'm not the only one who thinks that this name is an absolute kluge? Believe it or not, Paul actually held a naming contest for the transport - and this was the best one, he thought. I guess that's what happens when you allow an engineer to run the marketing department. Heck even Lambda was a more promising name.

[Ajani]

Looks like there will be an alternative to the DACmagic, Musical Fidelity is set to launch the V-DAC for $380. Times really are looking good if you're a music server fan...

http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=4486

[nightflier]

Times really are looking good if you're a music server fan...

I would say that music servers are driving this market. But are these really comparable to $2-3K DACs from the big names, or are these just consumer-level processors for the BB/CC/Walmart-buying home user?

[Ajani]

I would say that music servers are driving this market. But are these really comparable to $2-3K DACs from the big names, or are these just consumer-level processors for the BB/CC/Walmart-buying home user?

Comparable - probably... as good as - Probably not... a more fair comparison would be to highly regarded $1K DACS and CD Players such as Benchmark DAC1, PS Audio Dlink 3, Marantz SA8001, Rega Apollo and Cambridge Audio 740C/840C...

Only the reviews will tell... so far I only know of one review of the DACmagic and the V-DAC... I know the DACmagic got 5 stars and is being highly praised by WhatHiFi (I don't know what the V-DAC got though).... There's no reason to believe these $400 DACS won't offer substantial value for money... but I wouldn't expect to slap a $400 Cambridge DAC on a $2K Arcam CD Player and see an improvement in sound (a weakening - probably)...

The market for $400 DACs is people with a Squeezebox classic, AppleTV or a cheap DVD player, not audiophiles with expensive CD Players...

[nightflier]

The market for $400 DACs is people with a Squeezebox classic, AppleTV or a cheap DVD player, not audiophiles with expensive CD Players...

One can improve a crappy transport by adding a good DAC, but the same cannot be said about adding a crappy DAC to a very good transport.

I guess what I'm getting at is whether the $400 price point is the magic number. For the squeezebox-apple crowd, that's a steep-priced upgrade.

[Ajani]

One can improve a crappy transport by adding a good DAC, but the same cannot be said about adding a crappy DAC to a very good transport.

Agreed... the question will be whether these $400 DACS are just crappy toys or are really something special...


I guess what I'm getting at is whether the $400 price point is the magic number. For the squeezebox-apple crowd, that's a steep-priced upgrade.

I don't think it's that steep though, Squeezebox is $300 - $400 (Classic - Duet) and AppleTV is $230 - $330 (40gb - 160gb)... both products are being used by audiophiles with $1K DACs such as the PS Audio and Benchmark... so I'm sure audiophiles who can't/are unwilling to spend $1K on a DAC, would be willing to shell out $400 for a DAC (if it is good)...

[nightflier]

Squeezebox is $300 - $400 (Classic - Duet) and AppleTV is $230 - $330 (40gb - 160gb)...

That makes the DAC (a non-essential accessory to non audiophiles), more expensive than the server. Not the best deal, methinks.

[Ajani]

That makes the DAC (a non-essential accessory to non audiophiles), more expensive than the server. Not the best deal, methinks.

Why shouldn't the DAC cost more than the server? Would someone expect a $100 DAC to improve the sound of a $300 Squeezebox? These DACS are clearly aimed at audiophiles/Audio-enthusiasts/(whatever we call ourselves) with a more modest budget... As long as they really improve the sound of whatever server/entry level device they are being connected to, then they should sell ok....

[nightflier]

These DACS are clearly aimed at audiophiles/Audio-enthusiasts/(whatever we call ourselves) with a more modest budget...

Well, that's a point we can debate. I'm still a bit confused about what market segment they are targeted at. What did the bean-counters at Cambridge and MF speculate about who will be buying these? If it's the non "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts" crowd, then they will probably not buy a peripheral device that costs more than the server.

So that leaves the "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts... with a more modest budget," which I presume is many people here. And then let's be honest and ask ourselves this: Would we shell out $400 for a new bottom-of-the-line DAC from MF, or would we spend $400 for one that is 2-3 levels higher in MF's model line-up but that we found with a small scratch and well-burned-in on Audiogon? I don't know about you, but I would buy the latter.

A comparable case is PS Audio's little half-width amp line. They aren't selling. Sure we can attribute that to everything from the economy to dull looks, but I would venture a better guess that they expected a middle-group to exist between audiophiles and non-audiophile folks that had an extra $1-2K to shell out for these. But they weren't there. These low-priced DACs are banking on the if-we-build-it-they-will-come principle, but that is one heck of a gamble.

[Ajani]

Well, that's a point we can debate. I'm still a bit confused about what market segment they are targeted at. What did the bean-counters at Cambridge and MF speculate about who will be buying these? If it's the non "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts" crowd, then they will probably not buy a peripheral device that costs more than the server.

So that leaves the "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts... with a more modest budget," which I presume is many people here. And then let's be honest and ask ourselves this: Would we shell out $400 for a new bottom-of-the-line DAC from MF, or would we spend $400 for one that is 2-3 levels higher in MF's model line-up but that we found with a small scratch and well-burned-in on Audiogon? I don't know about you, but I would buy the latter.

A comparable case is PS Audio's little half-width amp line. They aren't selling. Sure we can attribute that to everything from the economy to dull looks, but I would venture a better guess that they expected a middle-group to exist between audiophiles and non-audiophile folks that had an extra $1-2K to shell out for these. But they weren't there. These low-priced DACs are banking on the if-we-build-it-they-will-come principle, but that is one heck of a gamble.

IF the market is the not budget audiophiles then I agree with you about the difficulty they'll have selling... But I just can't see anyone marketing a DAC at a non-audiophile/enthusiast... it does nothing their equipment doesn't already do (from a functional perspective)... and making the music sound better is an audiophile goal (not a mass market goal)...

The used market is a strong alternative for many... but keep in mind 2 things: 1) Not everyone is willing to buy used gear & 2) The cheapest price on Audiogon (when I posted this) for the major alternatives (Benchmark DAC1 and PS Audio Dlink 3) is $725... that's almost double the $380/$400 for the MF/CA DACs...

As for the PS Audio Trio amps: At $1600 for the Integrated and $2K for the amp + preamp, these are not budget products... and they face a lot of very strong competition from most major brands (and that used market you mentioned)... Half-width components are cute, but don't generally inspire old school audiophiles with confidence (as many still measure the quality of an amp by size and weight).... not to mention limited inputs (only 3) and no phono stage for the vinyl lovers...

How well these new cheaper DACs will sell really depends on how well they are received by reviewers... If for example, Stereophile says they are Class A or even B, they'll sell like hotcakes, if they say D or even C, then people will ignore them as not providing better sound than their Squeezebox etc.... All that really matters is how good these cheap DACs sound...

[emaidel]

This is not meant to disrepect the value of an external DAC in any way, but it also seems like the perfect opportunity to join in with a very interesting observation about the Marantz SA-8001. In the review in Stereophile, the reviewer (I don't remember who) stated that he couldn't hear any difference between the built in DAC in the 8001, as compared to using the 8001 as a transport coupled with the Benchmark DAC. That says an awful lot, I would think.

Add to that the fact that the Benchmark DAC is $975, and is only a DAC, but the 8001 is a transport, DAC and an SACD player as well, for $899.95. I found $900 and the term "bargain" a bit tough to swallow at first, but now it would certainly seem so, no? (Can you tell I really like my 8001?)

[Ajani]

This is not meant to disrepect the value of an external DAC in any way, but it also seems like the perfect opportunity to join in with a very interesting observation about the Marantz SA-8001. In the review in Stereophile, the reviewer (I don't remember who) stated that he couldn't hear any difference between the built in DAC in the 8001, as compared to using the 8001 as a transport coupled with the Benchmark DAC. That says an awful lot, I would think.

Add to that the fact that the Benchmark DAC is $975, and is only a DAC, but the 8001 is a transport, DAC and an SACD player as well, for $899.95. I found $900 and the term "bargain" a bit tough to swallow at first, but now it would certainly seem so, no? (Can you tell I really like my 8001?)

That's not a disrespect to external DACs but a compliment to the quality of the SA8001.. The Benchmark DAC1 is already regarded by many reviewers as being as good as digital gets... Keep in mind the reviewer also couldn't tell the difference between those 2 and the Marantz SA15S1 that he owns ($2K)... what it says is that top quality digital is available for a lot cheaper than many audiophiles claim...

Now what I'd love to see is Marantz introduce their own DAC.... but at least they added a USB input on the replacement for the 8001 (the SA8003).... so it can be used as a DAC for an ipod or hard-drive...

Also, while the Marantz 8001 is a great solution for people who want an SACD/CD player, it's useless to Music Server users... The 8003 is an improvement, as it can be used as a music server (just add an ipod/Hard Drive), but it's a wasteful solution for those who already own a Squeezebox etc... since it means you'd have to attach the Hard Drive directly to 8003 and not use the Squeezebox (which means you lose all the nice features of the Squeezebox, such as internet radio and playlists, not to mention that your $300 Squeezebox will be collecting dust in the corner)...

Glad to see you're still enjoying your 8001, but it has about as much use to a music server user as a turntable....

[Ajani]

Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...

Quick Update:

Looks like the Ultralink DAC will be able to access my network music (using PS Audio's planned wifi bridge).... sounds like you won't need to buy the PWT at all and can just use the Ultralink link like a Squeezbox (or more appropriately... A Transporter)...

If the final cost when all production is ready is inline with or not too much more expensive than the Transporter, then Logitech may have some serious competition on their hands... and when I'm eventually looking to step up to an expensive network source, $2K is possible, but $4K is Hell no...

[Ajani]

First 2 reviews are in for the DACmagic from What Hifi? and HiFi Choice:

http://whathifi.com/Review/Cambridge-Audio-DacMagic/

http://www.techradar.com/products/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/audio-systems/cambridge-audio-dacmagic-digital-to-analogue-converter-465736/review

and 1st review in for the Musical Fidelity V-DAC from What Hifi?

http://whathifi.com/Review/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC/

[Feanor]

IF the market is the not budget audiophiles then I agree with you about the difficulty they'll have selling... But I just can't see anyone marketing a DAC at a non-audiophile/enthusiast... it does nothing their equipment doesn't already do (from a functional perspective)... and making the music sound better is an audiophile goal (not a mass market goal)...
...

How well these new cheaper DACs will sell really depends on how well they are received by reviewers... If for example, Stereophile says they are Class A or even B, they'll sell like hotcakes, if they say D or even C, then people will ignore them as not providing better sound than their Squeezebox etc.... All that really matters is how good these cheap DACs sound...

Ajani, thanks for your links to reviews for the DacMagic and MF Vac-5.

Yes, absolutely the DacMagic is aimed at audiophiles. Hello: not all audiophiles are willing or able to pop >$1000 for a DAC. OK, some might might make the case that a <$500 DAC isn't necessarily better that a $700, or even a $500, CDP. Fine but in my case a $500 CDP without digital inputs is as useless as teets on bull. I interface directly with my music computer and my need is for a DAC, preferably with USB input.

Nor do I see the relevance of comparing the DacMagid's price with a Squeezebox . For me the Squeezebox is insufficient for my use for a number of reason I won't get into at the moment.

The sub-$500 range has been neglected by mainstream makers and I'm glad to see Cambridge and MF step up. Of course, there are scads of Chinese marque DACs in the range or even cheaper: some no doubt quite good but some less so, and since they aren't widely reviewed, it's hard to know which is which.

[blackraven]

Go with a Benchmark DAC1 pre. For around $1,000 it cant be beat and it has a USB port as well.

http://www.dac1pre.com/?gclid=CJL7iP7llZYCFQNfFQodwCYEEA

And it can be used as a stereo preamp, headphone preamp, DAC with analog, digital and USB inputs and XLR outputs to boot!

This is a great piece of equipment that can really elevate your system to better sound.
If I was on a budget and wanted to build a system around a power amp, preamp and CDP I would use this as a DAC and preamp and just use a cheap transport like an oppo.

[Ajani]

Go with a Benchmark DAC1 pre. For around $1,000 it cant be beat and it has a USB port as well.

http://www.dac1pre.com/?gclid=CJL7iP7llZYCFQNfFQodwCYEEA

And it can be used as a stereo preamp, headphone preamp, DAC with analog, digital and USB inputs and XLR outputs to boot!

This is a great piece of equipment that can really elevate your system to better sound.
If I was on a budget and wanted to build a system around a power amp, preamp and CDP I would use this as a DAC and preamp and just use a cheap transport like an oppo.

The Benchmark is the standard by which many DACs are judged... unfortunately, the cheapest version retails at $975 and the DAC1 Pre you suggested is $1575 (so 4x the price of the Cambridge/Musical Fidelity DACs)...

[blackraven]

I didnt know the DAC pre sold for that. I thought it was around $1K.
It would still be my choice for a new system.

[Ajani]

I didnt know the DAC pre sold for that. I thought it was around $1K.
It would still be my choice for a new system.

For the price it may well be the best available... and it's probably not too late for you to return the Van Alstine and get the Benchmark... :smilewinkgrin:

From all the reviews it's supposed to be just about as good a preamp as it is a DAC (which means exceptional)...

It has 2 problems (for me) though: 1) It lacks a remote - I'm not willing to do without one and 2) The cheaper $975 DAC1 has volume control as well (it only lacks the analog inputs of the DAC1 Pre and the USB input - neither of which I need, since I only have a Squeezebox as my source).

I suspect we may eventually see a remote controlled version of the DAC1 Pre released for under $2K.

[blackraven]

There are a few people on the audiocircle forum who have ditched their Benchmark DAC's for the Van Alstines. I wish I could hear a benchmark and compare it.

[nightflier]

First 2 reviews are in for the DACmagic from What Hifi? and HiFi Choice:

http://whathifi.com/Review/Cambridge-Audio-DacMagic/

http://www.techradar.com/products/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/audio-systems/cambridge-audio-dacmagic-digital-to-analogue-converter-465736/review

and 1st review in for the Musical Fidelity V-DAC from What Hifi?

http://whathifi.com/Review/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC/

While the reviews appear to be pretty positive, I thought it was interesting that the second review you posted listed as one of the cons that it was "pricey." So to their intended audience, the reviewers think that $400 is expensive.

Regarding the PS Audio half-width stuff, you're right that the prices are a bit higher, but they were lower when the products were introduced and more importantly, they are selling for about 1/2 msrp on the used market. You can get the integrated for around $1K and the amp or DAC for about $600. Now, that's still well above the V-DAC and DacMagic, but it's certainly not break-the-bank expensive. But your point is true, they are more expensive.

New, the USB-based PS Audio DAC is actually in the same price range as the Benchmark and I would guess that the two are probably comparable in quality, with the Benchmark adding the headphone amp feature. But personally, I have a small nit-pick to bring up about all these DACs, which may sound petty: why do they have to be half-sized? What ever happened to good quality DACs, at any price-point for that matter, that were just standard width components? I mean doesn't it feel silly to give a whole shelf to a tiny DAC? And it also looks silly to put it to the side of your player. At least PS Audio's new line is getting back to normal sized components....

Getting back to the Benchmark, I can see blackraven's point too, because this DAC, while being laser-precise, is also on the clinical-technical side of the spectrum, which can get irritating in long listening sessions. Synergy with warmer components and speakers will help, but such a DAC does not appeal to everyone. The VA, apparently is a bit warmer and meaty, from what I've read. Likewise the PS Audio half-sized DAC is also a tad warmer. Again, synergy plays a big role in this.

I also remember when all the rage was over the Bel Canto DAC1, the one that looks like a large pencil box and that has the input & output on opposite sides. It was only a few years ago that this was the bargain-priced DAC everyone was measuring up against. Now it's only keeping up price-wise because of it's Bel Canto name, and much less because of its sound. The point being that DACs have almost no moving parts, usually aren't taxed in any way, and just kind of sit there after the noverly has worn off, so they typically can be had used in excellent condition.

I'll wait until plenty of reviews are in on all these, all the initial euphoria has worn off, all the firmware updates are added, and the DAC is actually competitively priced. Besides, I want a DAC that's regular size. Sorry, but there are just too many choices in DACs out there to settle for something that's going to irritate me because of it's looks. Petty? OK, but with this economy, I'm in no hurry to buy anything, anyhow.

[Ajani]

While the reviews appear to be pretty positive, I thought it was interesting that the second review you posted listed as one of the cons that it was "pricey." So to their intended audience, the reviewers think that $400 is expensive.

Regarding the PS Audio half-width stuff, you're right that the prices are a bit higher, but they were lower when the products were introduced and more importantly, they are selling for about 1/2 msrp on the used market. You can get the integrated for around $1K and the amp or DAC for about $600. Now, that's still well above the V-DAC and DacMagic, but it's certainly not break-the-bank expensive. But your point is true, they are more expensive.

New, the USB-based PS Audio DAC is actually in the same price range as the Benchmark and I would guess that the two are probably comparable in quality, with the Benchmark adding the headphone amp feature. But personally, I have a small nit-pick to bring up about all these DACs, which may sound petty: why do they have to be half-sized? What ever happened to good quality DACs, at any price-point for that matter, that were just standard width components? I mean doesn't it feel silly to give a whole shelf to a tiny DAC? And it also looks silly to put it to the side of your player. At least PS Audio's new line is getting back to normal sized components....

Getting back to the Benchmark, I can see blackraven's point too, because this DAC, while being laser-precise, is also on the clinical-technical side of the spectrum, which can get irritating in long listening sessions. Synergy with warmer components and speakers will help, but such a DAC does not appeal to everyone. The VA, apparently is a bit warmer and meaty, from what I've read. Likewise the PS Audio half-sized DAC is also a tad warmer. Again, synergy plays a big role in this.

I also remember when all the rage was over the Bel Canto DAC1, the one that looks like a large pencil box and that has the input & output on opposite sides. It was only a few years ago that this was the bargain-priced DAC everyone was measuring up against. Now it's only keeping up price-wise because of it's Bel Canto name, and much less because of its sound. The point being that DACs have almost no moving parts, usually aren't taxed in any way, and just kind of sit there after the noverly has worn off, so they typically can be had used in excellent condition.

I'll wait until plenty of reviews are in on all these, all the initial euphoria has worn off, all the firmware updates are added, and the DAC is actually competitively priced. Besides, I want a DAC that's regular size. Sorry, but there are just too many choices in DACs out there to settle for something that's going to irritate me because of it's looks. Petty? OK, but with this economy, I'm in no hurry to buy anything, anyhow.

Nothing wrong with buying a full-sized component... It's your money, why should you just accept what manufacturers want to dump on you?

I know this is audiophile blasphemy (in North America anyway) but I expect my HiFi to not only sound good, but to look good as well... How many people are willing to buy an ugly car just because it has good performance? We expect both looks and performance from cars, so why not from HiFi?

Right now I'm considering two possible setups for a decent mid-priced setup (for when my house is completed)... either a Monitor Audio RS6/Parasound Halo P3 & A23 Combo or a NAD C372/Revel Concerta F12 Combo... both are about the same price, both have received excellent reviews... and despite the fact that the combos sound quite different, I could be happy with either.... but the Parasound/MA combo looks like far more expensive gear and would look mighty sweet in my audio room, while the NAD/Revel Combo looks like it would be more at home back in the late 80s/early 90s when big, boring and boxy looking was the norm for affordable HiFi gear... Guess which one I'm far more likely to purchase...

[Feanor]

...

I know this is audiophile blasphemy (in North America anyway) but I expect my HiFi to not only sound good, but to look good as well... How many people are willing to buy an ugly car just because it has good performance? We expect both looks and performance from cars, so why not from HiFi?

...

Ajani and blackraven: oh, you guys :hand:

One man's blasphemy is another man's gospel. For my part, although I like a good looking component, looks are very low among my priorities. In the case of a DAC say, you can place it out of sight, come to that.

Good grief, BR, are you saying you think Van Alstine's stuff is good looking? Pulleez. I do like Parasound Halo's looks, or for example, the Pass Labs amps
...

[nightflier]

but the Parasound/MA combo looks like far more expensive gear and would look mighty sweet in my audio room, while the NAD/Revel Combo looks like it would be more at home back in the late 80s/early 90s when big, boring and boxy looking was the norm for affordable HiFi gear... Guess which one I'm far more likely to purchase...

First of all, looking more expensive, doesn't always mean looking great, either. For example, all the white-van speakers from Leonity, Divinci, and Luxeon are made to look expensive, but they are basement-level in quality, and upon closer inspection they also look cheap. Gaudy, Kitsch, and flashy come to mind. Sort of the way a pole dancer looks great on stage, but not so much when you she wakes you up the next morning to pop that zit on her back. OK, maybe that's a little crass, but I have to imagine that's how all those poor schmucks feel who are trying to resell these speakers on eBay, hoping to quickly wash their hands of the shmutz.

Then there's the stuff that is a notch up from the white-van garbage, but is of strange origin. I would put a lot of the Chinese tube-stuff that's selling direct over the internet from Hong Kong and Taipei in that league. "Well mister, it certainly does look expensive, but what should I pay for it? $200 for shipping? Will I have to pay that if it needs repairs too? I dunno 'bout all that..." Again, too many questions and from what I've seen, a whole lot of upset customers online too. This stuff also doesn't have a high re-sale value on eBay and Audiogon, even though it isn't exactly cheap either. This is more like a prostitute you meet in the hotel lobby, and then makes off with your whole wallet: the sex was OK, but it was a bit quick and cost more than you bargained for.

Then there's the foreign stuff at the on-shore dealership. More comforting, yes, but is that enough? Even brands like Cayin and Shanling, which have garnered their share of positive reviews, fall into that category and the sale price isn't exactly cheap anymore. But how do we really know they are worth those lofty prices? They look expensive, they sell for kilobucks, but are they really much better than the Hong Kong or Taipei stuff? Should they cost 3x the price or just 2x as much? Is that markup legit, aside from covering the $200 in shipping that the dealer is now absorbing? Who can tell? Now you've moved up to the high-priced "escort" - she even takes credit cards.

Metaphors aside, this brings it back to my original point: there are a lot of companies out there competing for your dollars, so a shrewd consumer should be critical about all aspects of manufacture. Once we start talking about gear that surpasses the mass-market CC/BB stuff, it should offer a good combination of features, looks, and performance. While companies like NAD, Canton, and Thorens make great performing gear, their mid-level stuff should also look the part. Frankly I'm kind of tired of NAD's poop-slime colored gear. It may have been quaint 20 years ago, but now it's getting old. Maybe there ought to be a happy medium between the Hong Kong fluff and Danish austerity? These manufacturers need to realize that there are simply too many other options for consumers. I applaud The French and Italian manufacturers for many of their designs and even the Swiss and Dutch have a few good looking and performing options, but generally speaking it's more Euro-boring than anything else. The Brits have some highlights, but most of it looks like their teeth: big, not too straight, and with some odd corners here & there.

Finally you have the Johny-come-lately-and-still-hopes-to-compete Americans. Unfortunately, the American manufacturers (the few that are left) have a lot of catching up to do. Yes, Martin Logan and Gallo are stand-outs, but a lot of the home-grown stuff is just plain boring. I'm thinking PBN, Tyler, PS Audio (the new line excluded), Hsu, Schweikert, Magnepan, Odyssey, and even Krell are pretty staid-looking, if you ask me. Even Mac, while being instantly recognizable, totally missed the boat when they designed that new Turntable. OK, now I know that over here big muscle trumps everything, but under a TT? Do we really need another 1980's all-in-one stereo-looking thing for $9K? Maybe it should have included a record stacker, too. Sorry Mac, but that one is a double-bagger, even with the pretty blue lights. Likewise their media-server stuff just isn't going to appeal the the iPod owning crowd who's also affluent enough to buy a Wadia DAC to link it up. These folks just aren't going to buy Mac, especially when their stock portfolio is in the crapper.

Anyhow, there's a lot of choices out there, so if these companies want to compete, they have to do better than just focus on one aspect of manufacture.

P.S. Ajani, if you went used, you could buy a much better looking pair of Revel speakers and Masters-series NAD gear to match, for about the same price.

[blackraven]

Hey, I never said VA gear was pretty. It has that 1970's look with big knobs and push buttons. VA gear is about the sound and value. Its no frills with out all the bells and whistles. Frank's all about keeping his equipment affordable and giving the best possible sound. His gear would sell for hundreds if not a few thousand more if it was mass marketed and put in a pretty package.

I asked Frank why he never expanded his business and he stated that this is a hobby and passion of his. He likes to be in control and is constantly trying to design a better mouse trap. He does the designing himself and offers any upgrades to older equipment at a reasonable price. He's actually just now starting to advertise in audio magazines

His equipment offers great value. Where else are you going to find a 500wpc (4ohms) Tube/Solidstate hybrid power amp that can drive a 1ohm load with silky smooth sound, huge sound stage, transparency and the sweetest bass for $2,200.

His equipment has its own unique sound, not digital and not quite tube, but somewhere in between.

Nice piece that Pass is!

[blackraven]

RR, how do you make a door panel like a Magnepan speaker look much better?

[Ajani]

RR, how do you make a door panel like a Magnepan speaker look much better?

Same way Quad makes their 2905 and 2805 speakers look good... remove the cheap looking wood frame and replace it with shiny metal poles...

Or offer a nicer wood frame with some real finish options such as the ever popular Rosewood. Cherry, Maple and even Gloss Black...

Ditch the boring Grey grill cloth and get some nice colours, maybe even patterns...

Most radically, offer a custom grill shop... so that you can have any picture/artwork printed on the grill cloth... surround that with a well finished frame and you can convince the wife that those huge barn doors are really artwork or family portraits, and should be prominently displayed in your family room.

There really is no excuse for ugly looking Hi-Fi... Manufacturers are allowed to be lazy, because consumers believe that any attention paid to aesthetics means the product is either grossly overpriced or doesn't stack up compared to ugly products in its price class... neither of which is necessarily true...

[Feanor]

...

Or offer a nicer wood frame with some real finish options such as the ever popular Rosewood. Cherry, Maple and even Gloss Black...

Ditch the boring Grey grill cloth and get some nice colours, maybe even patterns...

Most radically, offer a custom grill shop... so that you can have any picture/artwork printed on the grill cloth... surround that with a well finished frame and you can convince the wife that those huge barn doors are really artwork or family portraits, and should be prominently displayed in your family room.

...

Maybe black velvet Elvis "socks" for those Maggies??

Actually I kind of like the unadorned look
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SysPic-Nov07-1024.jpg

[Ajani]

Maybe black velvet Elvis "socks" for those Maggies??

Actually I kind of like the unadorned look
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SysPic-Nov07-1024.jpg

Those are the best looking Maggies... But even those ones could use a better wood finish... The other finishes just look rather ho hum and cheap...

They could always leave the cheap finish options for those who either like that look or are unwilling to spend even an extra $50 for some more style...

I just don't accept that good performance and good looks are mutually exclusive or too expensive to be pratical...

In a product costing less than $500, such as the Squeezebox classic or Musical Fidelity's V-Series, I'll accept plastic or vanilla bland aesthetics, but once I pass that price point, I expect to see solid construction and decent looks in addition to good quality sound... Too many brands are able to do this, for me to accept that the ones who don't are not able to...

[blackraven]

My Maggies have a black cloth and a nice cherry wood finish. The wood side panel is about 1/2" to 3/4" wide and you dont really notice it.
My only complaint is the stands could be nicer.

[Ajani]

----- they are selling for about 1/2 msrp on the used market. You can get the integrated for around $1K and the amp or DAC for about $600. Now, that's still well above the V-DAC and DacMagic, but it's certainly not break-the-bank expensive. But your point is true, they are more expensive.

Actually your advice about the used market is pretty good (damn, I wish more Audiogon member were willing to ship overseas, then I might actually be able to buy some of the gear I drool over on Audiogon)... I found one well respected (but discountinued) DAC on Audiogon selling within the price range of the V-DAC and DacMagic... The Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3... actually all the X series V3 components are selling for pretty much the MSRP of the new V-Series versions...

I wonder how they compare performance wise, since the old X Series certainly looks a lot better than the V-Series... So it might be a case of choosing between new with a warranty versus better looking at the same price...

[nightflier]

Actually your advice about the used market is pretty good (damn, I wish more Audiogon member were willing to ship overseas, then I might actually be able to buy some of the gear I drool over on Audiogon)... I found one well respected (but discountinued) DAC on Audiogon selling within the price range of the V-DAC and DacMagic... The Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3... actually all the X series V3 components are selling for pretty much the MSRP of the new V-Series versions...

I think there's one selling on eBay right now and the starting bid is $199....

Feanor, I think you've got the right mix of silver & black. I certainly agree that black socks on your Maggies would have been way too dark... The computer, though, that's a bit last-millennium. How do you sit and work at it, anyhow?

[nightflier]

I always liked Wavelength DACs for their looks with the real wood veneers and all that, but the small size is still a problem for me. Several italians seem to have some nice products, but they are priced a bit high, too. But here's a US company that goes a step further and lets you decide how purdee you want your components to be (just amps for now and no DACs, but I'm sure they'll have something in the works soon enough).

http://store.virtueaudio.com/

[Ajani]

To get back to the DAC Magic:

Looks like What HiFi? and HiFi Choice really loved it, since it won awards in both magazines:

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/product_reviews.php?PID=320&Title=Press+reviews

I really hope Stereophile/The Absolute Sound do a review of it soon...

[noddin0ff]

Honestly, I'm not going to be aiming much above $300 for a DAC anytime in the near future. But, I see that Pacific Valve is offering a modded MD10 now.

http://www.pacificvalve.us/MusilandMD10Mod.html for just under $600.

I think this indicates the closing gap between affordable and rarified audiophile DACs. Might be worth a look. I'm quite happy with my un-modded MD10...

[Feanor]

Honestly, I'm not going to be aiming much above $300 for a DAC anytime in the near future. But, I see that Pacific Valve is offering a modded MD10 now.

http://www.pacificvalve.us/MusilandMD10Mod.html for just under $600.

I think this indicates the closing gap between affordable and rarified audiophile DACs. Might be worth a look. I'm quite happy with my un-modded MD10...

Is it just me? Let the prestige makers rush to defend their products, but I have a hard time see how they get off charging $2000+ for a handful of $20 chips. The reason is that DACs are still esoteric products to the average consumer and hence the mainstream makers see little reason to tap the low-end market. Cambridge is relatively mainstream and hence an exception.

[nightflier]

Ajani, you're going to give me fits. At $400 the CA is sure looking like a good deal, and it's been some time since I've had a DAC with balanced outs, which is sort of the way I'm leaning now. If it had a volume control, I'd be even more excited about it. It also look s a lot better than the Musical Fidelity one.

Still, for me the real consideration is how well it compares to the $1000-ish crop of DACs (that and the fact that it's not made in the US, which is another thing I'm leaning towards). But if that sucker can compete with the Benchmark, then that would really be impressive. So who here is going to take the plunge and tell us what this DAC can do compared with their current DAC? Considering how new these are, I imagine one could buy a b-stock or used one for about the same price as reselling it, so there's little cost involved in the trial. Alternatively, you could buy it and return it to whomever you bought it from, provided they have a generous return policy.

[Ajani]

Looks like we may soon be getting a review for the VDAC and possibly the DAC Magic from Stereophile...


We have been promised a review sample of the VDAC when it becomes available here in the US and maybe we should get a sample of the Cambridge DAC also.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I received that response to a question I posted on the Stereophile website:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=51203&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

[nightflier]

Finally. Those links above for the "reviews" of the CA DAC were a little thin on substance. What I want to see is some real comparisons. 'Sure hope Stereophile doesn't just dismiss this one because of price or embeds it deep in some editorial.

[noddin0ff]

Is it just me? Let the prestige makers rush to defend their products, but I have a hard time see how they get off charging $2000+ for a handful of $20 chips. The reason is that DACs are still esoteric products to the average consumer and hence the mainstream makers see little reason to tap the low-end market. Cambridge is relatively mainstream and hence an exception.

I'm with you on this one. There's just not much to a DAC. Should be far easier/cheaper to build a superior DAC component than say a CD player. Would I pay >$300 for a CD player? Personally, hell no. Not unless you want to buy audiophilia brand voodoo (and there's nothing wrong with that. If I had the resources I would. It looks cool).

[Ajani]

Finally. Those links above for the "reviews" of the CA DAC were a little thin on substance. What I want to see is some real comparisons. 'Sure hope Stereophile doesn't just dismiss this one because of price or embeds it deep in some editorial.

Hopefully Stereophile will treat them the way they normally treat DACs and Musical Fidelity Gear, with proper comparisons with the best available... What I really want to know is how the V-DAC (now $300!!!! on Audio Advisor) compares to the $1500 X-DAC V8 (now discontinued)....

Despite the less than impressive look of the V-DAC (I can always hide it behind my squeezebox) and the fact that WHF rated the CA DACMagic higher (as an "all-rounder"), I'm still far more interested in the V-DAC as I get the impression that it sounds more like a real high-end DAC than the DACMagic... I can't wait to see what Stereophile thinks of the V-DAC...

Seriously, $300... Wow

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MFVDAC

[nightflier]

Yeah the V-Dac is a little lower on my list. It definitely looks like something that should be tucked away, kind of like those cheapo phono preamps.

Regarding the Stereophile review, I'm going to guess they are going to compare it to the Evo and the Benchmark, since those are the two DACs the mag's reviewers have been touting for the past year (and that they probably have on hand as a result of the many reviews they've done of those two DACs). My guess is that they will also have more interest in the CA Dac, mostly because of the balanced outputs and the way they've also sung the praises of the 740 & 840 CD players.

[Ajani]

Yeah the V-Dac is a little lower on my list. It definitely looks like something that should be tucked away, kind of like those cheapo phono preamps.

Regarding the Stereophile review, I'm going to guess they are going to compare it to the Evo and the Benchmark, since those are the two DACs the mag's reviewers have been touting for the past year (and that they probably have on hand as a result of the many reviews they've done of those two DACs). My guess is that they will also have more interest in the CA Dac, mostly because of the balanced outputs and the way they've also sung the praises of the 740 & 840 CD players.

Are you sure you're talking about Stereophile and not The Absolute Sound? TAS is the one that can't stop worshiping at the feet of Cambridge Audio... Stereophile gave the 740A & C a rather luke warm review with the amp rated as Class C (while the similiar priced NAD C372 is Class B) and the CD player fairing slightly better as Class B (with the $100 cheaper Marantz SA8001 rated as Class A)....

I agree with you that they will probably find the balance outputs on the Cambridge intriguing....

I really want to see the review of the MF, since they rated both of MF's previous DACs as Class A (the X-DAC V3 & X-DAC V8)... So I really wonder if MF can produce a Class A DAC for just $300 (instead of the $1K and $1.5K of their last 2 DACs)...

I think the DACMagic is going to outsell the V-DAC (depite the $100 price difference) simply because the DM has much better features and doesn't look like crap... I wish MF had charged the extra $100 and made the V-DAC at least look respectable...

[tony340]

So whats the conclusion? I mean, how good is the Cambridge DAC after all? I'm looking at upgrading my Marantz CD 5001 and would like to know whether this particular DACMagic will greatly improve the sound by adding it into my system and making the marantz the transport?

[Feanor]

So whats the conclusion? I mean, how good is the Cambridge DAC after all? I'm looking at upgrading my Marantz CD 5001 and would like to know whether this particular DACMagic will greatly improve the sound by adding it into my system and making the marantz the transport?

... for sure if you try it.

The DacMagic has had good reviews and is likely to be very good-sounding DAC in its price range or anywhere close. The Marantz is a decent but entry level CDP whose the sound might well be improved by a good DAC.

Notwithstanding, the DacMagic's improvement might turn out to be very small to your ears. Personally I have found digital sources changes to be quite subtle relative to speakers, amps, preamps, or even different tubes in the same preamp. But Mr Peabody, for example, might disagree with this assessment.

[blackraven]

Just be aware that the Cambridge sound in general tends to lean slight on the bright side and Marantz tends to be on the warmer side.

In comparing a high end DAC like the Van Alstine to my Cambridge 840c, I noticed that the differences depended upon the music I was playing. On some music the differences were dramatic and on others you really had to listen hard for the differences.

[Ajani]

So whats the conclusion? I mean, how good is the Cambridge DAC after all? I'm looking at upgrading my Marantz CD 5001 and would like to know whether this particular DACMagic will greatly improve the sound by adding it into my system and making the marantz the transport?

No Conclusions... especially since no-one in this thread has bought a DacMagic yet...

However, it just got another review:

5 Stars from HiFi World (another UK review mag)...

Their review pretty much said that the DacMagic will make a fine upgrade for older mid-priced CD players and current cheapo dvd players, cables boxes and computer soundcards... but don't expect it to give ultra-expensive DACs a run for their money...

Based on that, I wouldn't expect the DacMagic to give a huge improvement over the Marantz... as the Marantz CD5001 is an excellent budget CD player... it might just alter the sound (as BlackRaven mentioned) making things less warm and more neutral to bright...

But the only way to know for sure is to try one out yourself....

[nightflier]

Their review pretty much said that the DacMagic will make a fine upgrade for older mid-priced CD players and current cheapo dvd players, cables boxes and computer soundcards... but don't expect it to give ultra-expensive DACs a run for their money...

...because of their chicken-sh1t way of not wanting to tick off their advertisers (i.e. the companies that give them uber-expensive toys to play with)? I'm having a tougher time everyday swallowing their more-expensive-is-better drivel. My last issue of Stereophile had some grossly overpriced gear that I really don't thing should be priced as high as the MSRP suggests. I know this is an age-old argument, but what if that CA audio DAC really is a giant killer, would they have the guts to come out an say it?

[blackraven]

There's alot of lower priced audio gear that sounds as good as more expensive gear. Some publications have rated the Cambridge 840c better than CDP's costing a few thousand more. Now how much of that is hype for the Manufacturer and advertising we will never know.

[Ajani]

5 Stars from HiFi World (another UK review mag)...

Their review pretty much said that the DacMagic will make a fine upgrade for older mid-priced CD players and current cheapo dvd players, cables boxes and computer soundcards... but don't expect it to give ultra-expensive DACs a run for their money...

Here's the exact quote:


an excellent tonic for older budget or mid-priced (CD) players, and a great upgrade for modern budget computer/AV set-ups

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/product_reviews.php?PID=320&Title=Press+reviews

[Ajani]

...because of their chicken-sh1t way of not wanting to tick off their advertisers (i.e. the companies that give them uber-expensive toys to play with)? I'm having a tougher time everyday swallowing their more-expensive-is-better drivel. My last issue of Stereophile had some grossly overpriced gear that I really don't thing should be priced as high as the MSRP suggests. I know this is an age-old argument, but what if that CA audio DAC really is a giant killer, would they have the guts to come out an say it?

You can never tell... Some mags (much like some Audiophiles) would die before admitting that a lower priced product sounds as good as (or even nearly as good as) their ultra-expensive reference gear.... Other mags and audiophiles have so many "best in class", "as good as products costing 5 to 10 times the price" products that it's hard to take any of their claims seriously...

And that issue of Stereophile you mentioned has been the source of some heated debate on the Stereophile website... Many of us Stereophile readers, were not impressed with the prices of the products reviewed in the that issue....

[nightflier]

PS, I tried to order the Dac Magic from several online sites and they are all out of stock. Even AA put me on a waiting list and can't even guarantee they'll get it to me before x-mas!

[Ajani]

PS, I tried to order the Dac Magic from several online sites and they are all out of stock. Even AA put me on a waiting list and can't even guarantee they'll get it to me before x-mas!

I'm not surprised... With all the glowing reviews it's getting, combined with good features, decent looks and a really good price... also since it's only real competitor (the V-DAC), though a $100 cheaper, looks like the 2 way splitter that you hide behind your cable box and lacks all the extra features... The DacMagic is gonna be on a lot of 'Audiophile' Christmas Lists this season...

[hubsand]

...because of their chicken-sh1t way of not wanting to tick off their advertisers (i.e. the companies that give them uber-expensive toys to play with)? I'm having a tougher time everyday swallowing their more-expensive-is-better drivel. My last issue of Stereophile had some grossly overpriced gear that I really don't thing should be priced as high as the MSRP suggests. I know this is an age-old argument, but what if that CA audio DAC really is a giant killer, would they have the guts to come out an say it?

What HiFi is notorious for championing anything by Arcam, Nad and (particularly) Cambridge Audio. Every DAC, speaker, amplifier, cable, and plug is a five star product of the year, according to What HiFi. I auditioned one a couple of weeks ago: in 16-bit it was OK, but nothing to write home about. Fed 24-bit, it really flew, though!

[Ajani]

What HiFi is notorious for championing anything by Arcam, Nad and (particularly) Cambridge Audio. Every DAC, speaker, amplifier, cable, and plug is a five star product of the year, according to What HiFi. I auditioned one a couple of weeks ago: in 16-bit it was OK, but nothing to write home about. Fed 24-bit, it really flew, though!

That's a heavy exaggeration, but NAD, Cambridge and Arcam usually get good reviews from What HiFi?, but they also usually get good reviews from many other HiFi Mags across North America and Europe...

The Brands What HiFi are most in love with at the moment are Cyrus (who swept all the CD Player awards) and Roksan (The Kandy has one won so many amplifier of the year awards from WHF? that you might believe it was the best amp ever made)

[hubsand]

Can we fail to assume that Richer Sounds, historically one of the magazine's most lucrative supporters, and practically sole UK agents for Cambridge Audio, are not unconnected with What HiFi's unwavering promotion of the brand? Compare also What HiFi's unflagging 'Best Buy' support for Gale over the years . . .

If nothing else, might we safely contemplate the idea of wondering about the suggestion that there is some pro-home-grown bias at work? You're right: Mission have always been WHF darlings, too.

I don't want not to be saying that Cambridge, Mission and NAD are not improperly rated (I've happily owned many of their products down the ages), but I am saying that the picture drawn by What HiFi of the great hi-fi landscape is bigoted, one-dimensional and betrays evidence of a commercial, not educational, agenda.

[Ajani]

Can we fail to assume that Richer Sounds, historically one of the magazine's most lucrative supporters, and practically sole UK agents for Cambridge Audio, are not unconnected with What HiFi's unwavering promotion of the brand? Compare also What HiFi's unflagging 'Best Buy' support for Gale over the years . . .

If nothing else, might we safely contemplate the idea of wondering about the suggestion that there is some pro-home-grown bias at work? You're right: Mission have always been WHF darlings, too.

I don't want not to be saying that Cambridge, Mission and NAD are not improperly rated (I've happily owned many of their products down the ages), but I am saying that the picture drawn by What HiFi of the great hi-fi landscape is bigoted, one-dimensional and betrays evidence of a commercial, not educational, agenda.

I hear conspiracy theories and accusations of advertiser pay-offs for almost every major HiFi publication.... If I was to take all of those claims seriously, I'd have no HiFi mags to read... Also, keep in mind that even brands such as Cambridge, Arcam and Mission get the odd really bad review from What HiFi? For example the highly acclaimed Cambridge 840A Version 1 Amp got a pathetic 3 star review from What HiFi? (despite other mags across Europe and North America giving it best buy status)... Also, the new Mission 7 Series bookshelf speaker recently received a 3 star review for being overpriced for what it offers..

EDIT: Not to mention KEF (another major advertiser) got a round of exceptionally nasty 2 and 3 star reviews for their new C Series speakers and the IQ50 & 70 speakers as well... The reviews were so bad that forum member on the WHF? site started several complaint threads defending the new KEFs...

[blackraven]

You've heard the term "Beauty Is In The Eye's Of The Beholder",
well the same is true for audio. "Good Sound Is In the Ear's Of The Beholder"!

[Ajani]

Stereophile finally reviewed the DAC Magic and loved it... (check the current issue).... I'm guessing Class B rating when the recommended components issue springs forth...

[nightflier]

Stereophile finally reviewed the DAC Magic and loved it... (check the current issue).... I'm guessing Class B rating when the recommended components issue springs forth...

They also reviewed the YG Acoustics $100K+ speakers and, barring a few minor quibs, they said that these are the best speakers they've ever heard (echoing the manufacturer's own ads that they've been running for the past year). Problem is, they had nothing else to compare them to. My question is this: does a speaker costing $100K sound better than one costing $75K or does it just sound different? Imagine what kind of gear that extra $25K would buy. This review was a crock of crap - same old ego-stroking, rationales, and audiophile-speak. And I don't even want to bring up that we're in a major world-wide recession and that such an article in beyond unconscionable when hundreds of thousands of folks are being handed pink slips.

So yes, it was a mostly positive article on the Cambridge DAC, but how much of that can I believe? Would they really be willing to say that it beats the Benchmark at twice the price, or even their current fav, the Bel Canto? I bet if you blindfolded Fremer, Mejias, Phillips, and the rest of the gang and do an extensive A/B set of tests between these DACs, they couldn't tell you which one was which.

And I'm not saying that the advertising dollars are the main driving force, either. I actually think that these reviewers' own relationships with the vendors who provide them samples is the bigger problem. Kind of hard to get Conrad Johnson to lend you a $30K amp when your last review was les than stellar. I've read a few letters that they've actually published from disagreeing reviewers (Roy Hall is always a colorful chap), but I bet that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

I also followed with interest their tiffs with regular folks (i.e. not audiophile golden ears) at WSJ, Add-busters, and a few other outfits who called their bluff. One was about some uber-expensive speaker cables, I think, with a challenge to do a blind test, and guess what? Stereophile backed down. With the WSJ, we're talking about the one demographic that can still afford $100K speakers, and they basically stuck to their line that there is value in such extravagances, even though more and more people are finding out (mostly because their shrinking dollar isn't buying much anymore and thus settling for less expensive gear) that this is all hogwash.

Now Stereophile is on this arrogant and quite possibly imaginary high that they somehow are not affected by this economy - apparently subscriptions are up and so are ad dollars. Yeah, that was the mantra of the Sheiks in Dubai, too, and guess what? You can now buy silver-plated Audis on eBay for a boatload of crude less than what they paid. Likewise, I seriously doubt that glowing write up of YG is going to be taken seriously or translate into record sales.

I'm finding a whole lot less of value in my subscription. Let's hope they change their tune.

[Ajani]

They also reviewed the YG Acoustics $100K+ speakers and, barring a few minor quibs, they said that these are the best speakers they've ever heard (echoing the manufacturer's own ads that they've been running for the past year). Problem is, they had nothing else to compare them to. My question is this: does a speaker costing $100K sound better than one costing $75K or does it just sound different? Imagine what kind of gear that extra $25K would buy. This review was a crock of crap - same old ego-stroking, rationales, and audiophile-speak. And I don't even want to bring up that we're in a major world-wide recession and that such an article in beyond unconscionable when hundreds of thousands of folks are being handed pink slips.

So yes, it was a mostly positive article on the Cambridge DAC, but how much of that can I believe? Would they really be willing to say that it beats the Benchmark at twice the price, or even their current fav, the Bel Canto? I bet if you blindfolded Fremer, Mejias, Phillips, and the rest of the gang and do an extensive A/B set of tests between these DACs, they couldn't tell you which one was which.

And I'm not saying that the advertising dollars are the main driving force, either. I actually think that these reviewers' own relationships with the vendors who provide them samples is the bigger problem. Kind of hard to get Conrad Johnson to lend you a $30K amp when your last review was les than stellar. I've read a few letters that they've actually published from disagreeing reviewers (Roy Hall is always a colorful chap), but I bet that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

I also followed with interest their tiffs with regular folks (i.e. not audiophile golden ears) at WSJ, Add-busters, and a few other outfits who called their bluff. One was about some uber-expensive speaker cables, I think, with a challenge to do a blind test, and guess what? Stereophile backed down. With the WSJ, we're talking about the one demographic that can still afford $100K speakers, and they basically stuck to their line that there is value in such extravagances, even though more and more people are finding out (mostly because their shrinking dollar isn't buying much anymore and thus settling for less expensive gear) that this is all hogwash.

Now Stereophile is on this arrogant and quite possibly imaginary high that they somehow are not affected by this economy - apparently subscriptions are up and so are ad dollars. Yeah, that was the mantra of the Sheiks in Dubai, too, and guess what? You can now buy silver-plated Audis on eBay for a boatload of crude less than what they paid. Likewise, I seriously doubt that glowing write up of YG is going to be taken seriously or translate into record sales.

I'm finding a whole lot less of value in my subscription. Let's hope they change their tune.

So am I to assume that you weren't happy with this month's issue of Stereophile? :biggrin5:

Well yeah, Stereophile gets lots of heat for consistently reviewing overpriced audio porn.... but that's the nature of the mag... We either accept it for what it is or don't renew our subscriptions....

[BillB]

I'm seriously considering dumping my Rotel RCD-1072 for one of these mated to my AppleTV controlled with the Remte app on my iPod Touch.

I've begun re-ripping my entire CD collection (in WAV) to a 1TB LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition with iTunes Server software. It would show up in iTunes as a shared drive/library and stream over ethernet to the AppleTV and use the optical out to the CA DacMagic before going on to my preamp.

For less than the cost of a Benchmark DAC1 I'd have a pretty formidable setup:

Cambridge Audio DacMagic: $400
AppleTV (40GB): $230
LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition (1TB): $160
iPod Touch (8GB): $230

I think the DacMagic, and the MH DAC25.2 for that matter, are targeted at people like me. People in the 25-34 age bracket that have embraced the convenience of the iPod, love music, and want a good system at home. The limiting factor is the quality of the software (music). There's no doubt that there are much higher levels of fidelity out there but modern rock/pop music is too compressed during mastering to shine on that equipment.

What do you all think of the setup?

Bill

[Feanor]

I'm seriously considering dumping my Rotel RCD-1072 for one of these mated to my AppleTV controlled with the Remte app on my iPod Touch.

I've begun re-ripping my entire CD collection (in WAV) to a 1TB LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition with iTunes Server software. It would show up in iTunes as a shared drive/library and stream over ethernet to the AppleTV and use the optical out to the CA DacMagic before going on to my preamp.

For less than the cost of a Benchmark DAC1 I'd have a pretty formidable setup:

Cambridge Audio DacMagic: $400
AppleTV (40GB): $230
LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition (1TB): $160
iPod Touch (8GB): $230

I think the DacMagic, and the MH DAC25.2 for that matter, are targeted at people like me. People in the 25-34 age bracket that have embraced the convenience of the iPod, love music, and want a good system at home. The limiting factor is the quality of the software (music). There's no doubt that there are much higher levels of fidelity out there but modern rock/pop music is too compressed during mastering to shine on that equipment.

What do you all think of the setup?

Bill

I haven't used or seen the Apple TV / iTouch, but reports I've heard have been quite good.

It's up to you whether you keep your CDP for the occassional convenience of poping in a visitor's CD -- of course you can route the digital signal through the DacMagic.

I rip to ALAC (Apple Lossless) usually. It takes half the space of WAV (or AIFF) and fits a bit better on my old iPod if I want to listen on the go. And, of course, you can recreate a bit-perfect WAV file if you want to burn a CD.

I prefer to rip using dBpoweramp Ripper, secure mode, but that isn't available for the Mac. For a player I use FooBar2000, there again not available for Mac.

[Ajani]

I'm seriously considering dumping my Rotel RCD-1072 for one of these mated to my AppleTV controlled with the Remte app on my iPod Touch.

I've begun re-ripping my entire CD collection (in WAV) to a 1TB LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition with iTunes Server software. It would show up in iTunes as a shared drive/library and stream over ethernet to the AppleTV and use the optical out to the CA DacMagic before going on to my preamp.

For less than the cost of a Benchmark DAC1 I'd have a pretty formidable setup:

Cambridge Audio DacMagic: $400
AppleTV (40GB): $230
LaCie Ethernet Disk mini Home Edition (1TB): $160
iPod Touch (8GB): $230

.....................

What do you all think of the setup?

Sounds like a very good setup.... AppleTV is raved about quite frequently as a music server (check out PS Audio's website for example - they recommend using it with their Digital Link iii DAC)...


I think the DacMagic, and the MH DAC25.2 for that matter, are targeted at people like me. People in the 25-34 age bracket that have embraced the convenience of the iPod, love music, and want a good system at home.

I'm also in that age group, and I agree that many of these products are designed for persons looking to ditch the old CD player for the convenience of a music server, but still want to retain quality sound....


The limiting factor is the quality of the software (music). There's no doubt that there are much higher levels of fidelity out there but modern rock/pop music is too compressed during mastering to shine on that equipment.

I have to disagree to some extent here: Not all Quality setups make your recordings sound worse... I have a large collection of modern pop/rock that sounds brilliant through my Benchmark DAC1/AKG K701 setup..... You would be truly surprised at how much better Usher, Madonna and Green Day sound through a quality setup.... A lot of the complaints about modern music not deserving 'audiophile' quality systems is little more than audio-snobbery by older generations of audiophiles.... Compression is a real problem, but it doesn't automatically mean that the music will sound worse on a better setup....

[BillB]

I haven't used or seen the Apple TV / iTouch, but reports I've heard have been quite good.

It's up to you whether you keep your CDP for the occassional convenience of poping in a visitor's CD -- of course you can route the digital signal through the DacMagic.

I rip to ALAC (Apple Lossless) usually. It takes half the space of WAV (or AIFF) and fits a bit better on my old iPod if I want to listen on the go. And, of course, you can recreate a bit-perfect WAV file if you want to burn a CD.

I prefer to rip using dBpoweramp Ripper, secure mode, but that isn't available for the Mac. For a player I use FooBar2000, there again not available for Mac.

I figure if I rip to WAV they're pristine. I can then downconvert them to MP3 if I want. In fact I'll probably end up ripping new CD's twice, once to the 1TB external as WAV and once to our iMac's internal as MP3 for syncing with our iPods.

[BillB]

I have to disagree to some extent here: Not all Quality setups make your recordings sound worse... I have a large collection of modern pop/rock that sounds brilliant through my Benchmark DAC1/AKG K701 setup..... You would be truly surprised at how much better Usher, Madonna and Green Day sound through a quality setup.... A lot of the complaints about modern music not deserving 'audiophile' quality systems is little more than audio-snobbery by older generations of audiophiles.... Compression is a real problem, but it doesn't automatically mean that the music will sound worse on a better setup..

Trust me, I'm by no means a self-proclaimed "audiophile". I'm a music lover first and foremost, a good system just allows me to enjoy my favorite tunes that much more.

Not every new album is recorded poorly but the good ones, in my experience and music tastes, are the exception. Some recent examples are the latest from Ben Kweller and Elbow's "Seldom Seen Kid". Both have great dynamics and imaging along with being good music, IMO, that allow my system to shine.

I'll also end up digging out my old Cambridge Audio CD player to replace the Rotel for times when I feel like spinning discs. My old Denon DVD-2900's still in the rack as well.

Bill

[nightflier]

Bill, that sounds like a decent setup. The DAC is the bottleneck, IMO, and a better combination could be had, but then again I haven't heard the CA DAC.

As with all digital storage, you should also find a way to do automated backups of that hard drive. I've been a LaCie customer for over a decade, and they are top notch on quality and service, but I still run into the occasion bad drive. I know iTunes has the full online backup, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket, either.

P.S. I purchased a used AppleTV for $150 for a client who then upgraded the hard drive (to something actually large enough to be useful), but yes, it's a great little piece of gear, especially for music.

[Feanor]

I figure if I rip to WAV they're pristine. I can then downconvert them to MP3 if I want. In fact I'll probably end up ripping new CD's twice, once to the 1TB external as WAV and once to our iMac's internal as MP3 for syncing with our iPods.

Point I wanted to make is that ALAC is really just as pristine as WAV -- that's why it's called "lossless". It is a trivial decoding task for any modern computer to expand the lossess compression for playback. (And as mentioned, bit perfect WAV files can be recreated from any lossless format.)

Don't rip twice -- too time consuming -- get a converter program and use it to copy from WAV, (or ALAC if you were to take my advice), to AAC (M4A) for your iPod. I don't know what converters are available for Mac, but I highly recommend dBpoweramp Converter for the PC platform.

Another consideration is metadate tags: iTunes can't read tags imbedded in WAV files, (not on the PC at least), but it will read tags in ALAC.

WAV can store tags, (contrary to what a lot of people believe), but many players can't read them from WAV. It is imperative for me that I can store and read tags, including in iTunes when I choose to use it, e.g. to copy to my iPod.

[audio amateur]

Don't rip twice -- too time consuming -- get a converter program and use it to copy from WAV, (or ALAC if you were to take my advice), to AAC (M4A) for your iPod. I don't know what converters are available for Mac, but I highly recommend dBpoweramp Converter for the PC platform.
Feanor, could you recommend me a good CD burning program that's free? I've so far used WMP for both ripping and burning. I now have dbpoweramp ripper (which Ive never used, i think it's trial version) but no burning software.
Thanks

[Feanor]

Feanor, could you recommend me a good CD burning program that's free? I've so far used WMP for both ripping and burning. I now have dbpoweramp ripper (which Ive never used, i think it's trial version) but no burning software.
Thanks

I virtually never burn, so I can't be specific.

However I recommend dBpoweramp components in general. Nowadays you have to pay for everything but the basic ripper, (no secure mode), and converter -- see the comparison chart (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/db-versions.htm). However I think that the Reference versions is huge bargain at US$36.

[Feanor]

...

As with all digital storage, you should also find a way to do automated backups of that hard drive. I've been a LaCie customer for over a decade, and they are top notch on quality and service, but I still run into the occasion bad drive. I know iTunes has the full online backup, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket, either.

...

All hard drives eventually fail! Back up on a regular basis or kiss off your data.

I use a Windows Home Server that automatically makes redundant copies all my computers every night -- maybe overkill, but hey.

[nightflier]

You'd be surprised. We just integrated a small network of graphic designers (about 15 users) into our AD tree that had never done a single backup, not in 15 years of operation. Fortunately, they never had a failure either and they were pretty good about upgrading, but talk about risk! Their whole business depended on their data.

On the home front, I'm going to guess that maybe 1 in 10 people do backups, and of those maybe a quarter do them right (complete, regular, and using good equipment). I've discussed this with a lot of people who have large music collections and the vast majority expect their online service (usually Apple) to save their collections for them in case of a failure.

Of course, it's my job to be more diligent about this topic, so I have a different perspective then most home users, but it's always baffling to me how few people consider even doing backups, even when they run a business. I've also gone through the chore of recovering erased and reformatted drives, and yes, it should cost an arm and a leg, perhaps even more.

[BillB]

Yeah, I went and ordered a 1TB external LaCie drive as well to serve as a backup. I've got a 250GB of their's that backs up my iMac via Time Machine.

Bill

[Ajani]

Stereophile finally reviewed the DAC Magic and loved it... (check the current issue).... I'm guessing Class B rating when the recommended components issue springs forth...

I guessed wrong:

The DAC Magic got Class C.... so basically just a step above my Squeezebox Classic.... Not much of an endorsement from Stereophile...

[audio amateur]

Does that mean it's crap ? :lol:

[evan1]

I guessed wrong:

The DAC Magic got Class C.... so basically just a step above my Squeezebox Classic.... Not much of an endorsement from Stereophile...


I still can't find this review online. I just got a MH 25.2 dac delivered today and for a quick comparison my SB classic with an upgraded power supply sounds better. hope I did not waste money

[Ajani]

Does that mean it's crap ? :lol:

Good question... they gave it a good review, but that rating really isn't impressive... In fairness to Stereophile (and my original guess :ciappa: ) they said that it was "Knocking on Class B", so it almost got a Class B rating... But even so, it's still Class C, so I wouldn't expect it to give too much improvement over many of the CD players or Digital Streamers it is likely to be paired with...

[audio amateur]

Funny 'cause Hifi Choice & What hifi liked it

[Ajani]

Funny 'cause Hifi Choice & What hifi liked it

As did HiFi World.

All 3 UK mags gave it 5 star Reviews...

Though keep in mind that UK mags rate it based on performance for price, while Stereophile is giving it an absolute rating, regardless of price... So it is likely well worth the $450 price tag, but just don't go thinking that it will outperform significantly more expensive DACs....

[BillB]

I guessed wrong:

The DAC Magic got Class C.... so basically just a step above my Squeezebox Classic.... Not much of an endorsement from Stereophile...

I'm glad I stopped subscribing to Stereophile years ago! :14:

Bill

[nightflier]

Yes but how much of that C-rating was just simple snobbery?

[Ajani]

Yes but how much of that C-rating was just simple snobbery?

I'm not sure much (if any) of it is about snobbery.... Despite Stereophile's love of ultra-expensive exotica, they are one of the few mags willing to say that affordable products perform in the same category as luxury-ware... Keep in mind that both a $900 CD Player (Marant SA8001) and a $1K DAC (Benchmark) are rated at Class A.... many mags & audiophiles wouldn't even suggest looking seriously at digital players below $3K. Stereophile also has one sub $1.5K Integrated Amp rated at Class A (the Exposure 2010S... the Creek Classic used to also be Class A at that price, until the Destiny was reviewed and found to be better than it).... They also have four sub $2K floorstanders rated as Class B (so the next best thing): Monitor Audio RS6, Revel Concerta F12, Epos M16i & PSB Imagine T.... Many Mags and Audiophiles would tell you that can't find a decent floorstander (unless it was used) for less than $4K....

My point is that 'Phile has gone out on a limb quite a few times to acknowledge that more affordable products can give excellent performance, so I doubt they'd diss the DACmagic just for snobbery... Also their DACmagic review and even rating isn't that far out of line with the string of 5 Star reviews the DM got in the UK.... all those reviews, while very positive, never claimed that the DM was as good as top of the line DACs. Those reviews generally suggested that it would be a good upgrade for cheapo DVD and CD Players and really old mid price players...

My issue with Stereophile remains that they review too much overpriced audio porn..... I'd love to see them put at least equal emphasis on all price ranges, that way we'd get a real idea of how many affordable products are as good as luxury gear...

[nightflier]

Ajani,

I hear what you're saying, and maybe I was being overly critical, but with DACs, that $500 price-point is a risky alternative since their top rated stuff is only 2-3 times as much. My point is that with the DAC magic, they have less wiggle room.

I do agree that they review too much expensive stuff and they seem to have no understanding that we're in a recession. At the very least they could use that as an excuse to review more sanely-priced gear.

[nightflier]

Well after reading through this last issue, at least I got one of my questions answered: Stereophile doesn't care about this depression because they still feel that enough of their vendors are not affected. With Vinyl sales on an uptick, super-expensive manufacturers claiming that their buyers aren't affected, and their own revenue stream seemingly unaffected (same ad revenue, same cushy reviewing deals with manufacturers, etc.), they are actually pretty chipper. It's bloody insulting, but they don't seem to really care.

I'm of the opinion that the real pain in this industry hasn't been felt yet. For one, this type of equipment typically lasts a few years, so there isn't the same drive to renew things every year (aside from lingering upgrade-itis). A typical pair of Magico or Dynaudio speakers bought in 2005, at the height of the market, will last a good 20 years. Same for preamps and amps. Even players and components with more moving parts will last at least 10 years, and "feel new" for at least 5 years. And those people who would pay $20K for a preamp are probably going to say, when it is time to upgrade: "you know, this time, I think I'll just spend $15K, this time around." And if they lost their comfort cushion in the market this past year, they might even say they'll spend $5K. But this won't be understood by Stereophile reviewers until 2009 or maybe even 2010.

On a side note, apparently a couple of their well known reviewers are fans of Rush Limbaugh, too, so I guess that also explains a lot. That kind of insanity in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is also the kind of thinking that says everything is going just swimmingly. So should we be listening to the advise of these reviewers when we're trying to decide on a $500 DAC? What do they even care? Who are they really beholden too?