Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?

[Ajani]

Ok, it's a Friday and I'm bored, which means Poll Time!!!! So what do you think?

Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?

There's so much talk about whether or not dedicated HiFi is dying, so should traditional audio brands take a new stance? Should they consider moving away from the snotty small boutique shops and start offloading their entry level products on the major electronic stores (Best Buy, Future Shop, or even local 'mass market' stores)?

Brands such as B&W, Revel, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Kef, NAD, Cambridge Audio, PSB etc... all have products that would fit into the price range of gear sold at mass market stores... So do you think they should attempt to increase both sales of entry level gear and market recognition by making the switch?

[Auricauricle]

Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....

Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....

Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?

Yes you did, and you betta wipe your feet before coming into the forum, or you will hear from Pixie.

[Ajani]

Sure, as long as the sales guy is able to sell the product without employing the sock-it-to-'em tactics that Best Buy, Circuit City use to appeal to the masses....

Um, I just stepped in big pile of contradiction there, didn't I?

Hmmm, I've found the salesmen in boutique shops to employ frustatingly stupid tactics as well....

Also, I probably should have mentioned in my initial post that a few brands already do this... such as Martin Logan and Klipsch (which maybe why Klipsch doesn't seem to get much respect for their Synergy and reference ranges)...

[basite]

some of them are here (not in all 'mass market' stores), B&W and Denon mostly, but also Focal and so...

the salesmen know next to nothing about the products though...

I don't think many people would buy true 'audiophile' products in mega stores, after all, why would you buy something that costs 3 or 4 times more than anything else in the shop, while the salesman can't 'tell' you why it's better...
and most likely, you can't even decide for yourself that it's better, because you cannot properly audition it...

add to that that some high end manufacturers don't want their products being sold in a store where the salesmen don't have any knowledge about their product...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

some of them are here (not in all 'mass market' stores), B&W and Denon mostly, but also Focal and so...

the salesmen know next to nothing about the products though...

I don't think many people would buy true 'audiophile' products in mega stores, after all, why would you buy something that costs 3 or 4 times more than anything else in the shop, while the salesman can't 'tell' you why it's better...
and most likely, you can't even decide for yourself that it's better, because you cannot properly audition it...

add to that that some high end manufacturers don't want their products being sold in a store where the salesmen don't have any knowledge about their product...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Good points... though I wouldn't suggest they sell their really expensive gear in the store... only products that are in or at least near the price range of gear already in the store... (unless the store has a proper, dedicated listening room for better gear)...

I think the best examples are 2 stores in Toronto: Bay Bloor Radio and Kromer Radio (I'm sure both would be highly offended at being called mass market stores, but by comparision to boutique audio shops, they fit the bill)... Both stores sell a range of products from car stereos, Ipods and mass market receivers, dvd players etc... to quality 2channel gear from Arcam, Totem, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, NAD, PSB etc... Hmmm... maybe I should call them "in between" stores... Stores big enough to sell mass market gear and draw crowds, but small enough to maintain properly trained salesmen...

[kexodusc]

I have no problem with Big Box stores selling high-end anything if they do it right.
I don't have much faith in their ability to do it right under their one-size-fits-all policy framework, and I don't think they go out of their way to create the best conditions for selling audio gear.

But if they did, it'd be great - many smaller cities and towns would never have an audio store that could carry some high end lines, but a big-box store could make a go of it if they did it right.

At the end of the day I buy the product, not the distribution channel.

[Auricauricle]

Yes you did, and you betta wipe your feet before coming into the forum, or you will hear from Pixie.

Oooooooooooooooooh.....

[Feanor]

Good points... though I wouldn't suggest they sell their really expensive gear in the store... only products that are in or at least near the price range of gear already in the store... (unless the store has a proper, dedicated listening room for better gear)...

I think the best examples are 2 stores in Toronto: Bay Bloor Radio and Kromer Radio (I'm sure both would be highly offended at being called mass market stores, but by comparision to boutique audio shops, they fit the bill)... Both stores sell a range of products from car stereos, Ipods and mass market receivers, dvd players etc... to quality 2channel gear from Arcam, Totem, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, NAD, PSB etc... Hmmm... maybe I should call them "in between" stores... Stores big enough to sell mass market gear and draw crowds, but small enough to maintain properly trained salesmen...

I live and worked on Toronto for a good many years and knew Bay Bloor very well. You have typified it quite accurately. They always carried a good range of products. The last time I visited was about five years ago but the tradition lived on at that time.

The original owner, Saul Mandelson, and his son employed a number of career salesman. In fact at that last visit I spoke with a guy who I knew worked there for at least 25 years. Of these guys it may be said that they weren't as arrogant or opinionated as the typical boutique types, yet they knew the products they were selling.

[Ajani]

I live and worked on Toronto for a good many years and knew Bay Bloor very well. You have typified it quite accurately. They always carried a good range of products. The last time I visited was about five years ago but the tradition lived on at that time.

The original owner, Saul Mandelson, and his son employed a number of career salesman. In fact at that last visit I spoke with a guy who I thw had worked there for at least 25 years. Of these guys it may be said that they weren't as arrogant or opinionated as is often the case at the boutique types, yet they knew the products they were selling.

My first week in Toronto, I bought a NAD Amp/CD Combo and a pair of Mission floorstanders from Bay Bloor Radio.... It's a good example of the kind of stores I'd like to see more of....

[Auricauricle]

I haven't seen that kind of videostore in America yet, and think that the Canadian model is the best thing that the boutique brands can hope for. IMHO, Audiophilia is not the vibrant market it once was. Mebbe I should find another forum for this comment, but it has always been a niche market and, with the increasing popularity of ready-to-go music sources, the quick fix will trounce traditional, sedentary sources unless they (a) position their markets for more accessibility, (b) adopt some of the quick-fix technology to their own line, and (c) broaden their appeal and spruce up the snob-status-symbol image. Again, IMHO, the plug and play format is extremely appealing, and is winning over a very eager, young, techie base that may quite overshadow the eager, yet generally older crowd whose interest in things musical and technological may no longer be relevant....

[Ajani]

I haven't seen that kind of videostore in America yet, and think that the Canadian model is the best thing that the boutique brands can hope for. IMHO, Audiophilia is not the vibrant market it once was. Mebbe I should find another forum for this comment, but it has always been a niche market and, with the increasing popularity of ready-to-go music sources, the quick fix will trounce traditional, sedentary sources unless they (a) position their markets for more accessibility, (b) adopt some of the quick-fix technology to their own line, and (c) broaden their appeal and spruce up the snob-status-symbol image. Again, IMHO, the plug and play format is extremely appealing, and is winning over a very eager, young, techie base that may quite overshadow the eager, yet generally older crowd whose interest in things musical and technological may no longer be relevant....

Agreed... I've always said that if Audio Companies really want to ensure that they have profitability (or even jobs) in the future, then they need to look beyond just appealing to wealthy middle-aged to retired vinyl lovers with their $10K+ Speakers... and start trying to appeal to the younger ipod/computer generations... and they need to let go of the snotty attitudes and the retarded notions that unless you are willing to sell your house, wife and children's souls to get the most expensive planar/turntable system possible, that you don't care about sound quality... younger generations want BOTH sound quality and convenience... There is opportunity for these audio companies to make money and not be totally niche market, but they need to start living in the present to see the opportunities...

The good news is that several Audio Companies are producing products designed to embrace modern trends... aka USB inputs and Music Servers... too bad most of these companies are pricing these products out of the range of the people who would actually buy them...

[filecat13]

Sorry, couldn't vote in the poll as the two choices kinda had that end-of-the-week brain fart quality to them. (no offense)

Still I think your overall point in the opening post is a great topic.

Honestly, I don't think it matters whether the audiophile brands get into stores or not. Their core market is dying, and they're not relating to the emerging markets very well.

I can't see how increasing their overhead and putting demo units out (which ultimately lose value) really gets them anything.

There's a fancy, upscale mall nearby that had a Bang and Olafson store in it. Perhaps not audiophile in the mind of many, but certainly high priced. It didn't last a year, despite having a wide range of products and an excellent listening environment. All I ever saw in there were old men. (Yes, even older than me at the time.)

Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.

Lest you think that this highly affluent zip code had only old men living in it, there was also a Bose Store, which was perpetually filled with young adults spending lots of cash. It looked like the most popular destination in the mall until the Apple Store opened up.

Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.

Companies like Bose and JBL, as well as some "resurrected" brands like Altec Lansing, are making a killing in the iPod/MP3 player ecosystem, while others ignore the market. When those convenience consumers finally decide to get a stationary system, they won't be looking to brands they never heard of.

[Ajani]

Sorry, couldn't vote in the poll as the two choices kinda had that end-of-the-week brain fart quality to them. (no offense)

Still I think your overall point in the opening post is a great topic.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Ummm... thanx...


Honestly, I don't think it matters whether the audiophile brands get into stores or not. Their core market is dying, and they're not relating to the emerging markets very well.

I can't see how increasing their overhead and putting demo units out (which ultimately lose value) really gets them anything.

There's a fancy, upscale mall nearby that had a Bang and Olafson store in it. Perhaps not audiophile in the mind of many, but certainly high priced. It didn't last a year, despite having a wide range of products and an excellent listening environment. All I ever saw in there were old men. (Yes, even older than me at the time.)

Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.

Lest you think that this highly affluent zip code had only old men living in it, there was also a Bose Store, which was perpetually filled with young adults spending lots of cash. It looked like the most popular destination in the mall until the Apple Store opened up.

Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.

Companies like Bose and JBL, as well as some "resurrected" brands like Altec Lansing, are making a killing in the iPod/MP3 player ecosystem, while others ignore the market. When those convenience consumers finally decide to get a stationary system, they won't be looking to brands they never heard of.

Interesting point on the Bose Store... The top floor of Bay Bloor Radio is a Bose Store... so they pretty much have all the reasons average consumers would go into an electronics store covered....

The really sad part is that audiophiles waste so much time bashing Bose and (to a much lesser extent) JBL and Klipsch for catering to the mass market, while failing to realize that long after these "Boutique Stores" and Brands are out of business, Bose will still be making money.... Time to stop hating and start competing...

[Auricauricle]

Yeah, time to dig in the heels.....Somehow or another, Klipsch and Bose have managed to weather it out, in spite of themselves. I'm not going to get into a Bose or Klipsch bash, but do want to underscore your point that the market is heading towards the young and the hip. I haven't read any stereo-mags in awhile, but have had my "feelers" out long enough to recognize a trend, and I think it indicates that the old-men-in-the-salons phenom is fading away...grudgingly, but still fading.

It's a shame that the standard has come to a point that "good enough" flies. While there will always be, no doubt, people whose ears are highly tuned instruments and whose attention span will enable them to detect the very nuances that make great musical performance, this market will--IMHO--continue to lose ground.

So, what, Oh Best Beloved, do we do to keep us off the slippery slope?

Or are we doomed to plug in the I-Pod when we settle into our electric wheelchairs as we speed toward the local liquor store....?

[filecat13]

The really sad part is that audiophiles waste so much time bashing Bose and (to a much lesser extent) JBL and Klipsch for catering to the mass market, while failing to realize that long after these "Boutique Stores" and Brands are out of business, Bose will still be making money.... Time to stop hating and start competing...

One of the things I like about JBL is its long history and the fact that it's still covering the high end as well as the low end. If I had $60*, I could buy a pair of JBL speakers and a subwoofer. If I had $6000, I could buy a full-sized home theater system (Studio L Series) or some really nice stereo speakers (pair of Array 1000 or Performance Series). If I had $60,000, I could buy a pair of some of the best speakers in the world (Everest II). Okay, I could get on the waiting list anyway.

The volume of sales on the low end stuff helps to prop up the sales of the high end stuff, and there's a natural bridge for the low end buyer to come back to a known brand for the next purchase.

On a couple of other forums, I'm surprised at the growing number of posters who are coming on line and reporting that they just got their first "high end system," a set of JBLs from the low end of the loudspeaker range but high priced to them at nearly $1000 for five speakers and a sub. A few months later they're back asking about the next line or the line above that.

I suspect a lot of people get into a brand and keep moving up the chain. If there's no place for a customer to build brand affinity when he or she starts a the bottom, there'll be no brand loyalty later on. Studies show that brand loyalty is a big deal to many young consumers, and brands that don't build affinity early in a shopper's buying history have a hard time converting them later, especially if there's inconvenience attached, such as having to search for a place where the product is sold.




*In fact I did that with the JBL Creature 2. Didn't even need an amp or preamp. Just plug in the iPod and I've got a good sounding stereo system with a sub. All the kids at school love it (or they would if it were 40 years ago and I were still in high school).

[Woochifer]

Not too far away was a Magnolia, that had a number of high end offerings as well as several entry and mid level products. This was before the Best Buy assimilation and destruction of the brand. That store had four terrific listening rooms and good staff. All I ever saw in there were old men. It closed after 18 months.

If you're living in L.A., you would not have seen a pre-Best Buy owned Magnolia location, so I don't know what you mean by "assimilation and destruction of the brand." Best Buy acquired Magnolia back in 2000, and their expansion into California occurred only because Best Buy had the deep pockets to finance that expansion. Magnolia's entry into the California market basically knocked both Good Guys and Tweeter out.

Most of the standalone Magnolia locations remain in place because they serve the home installation market where the margins remain healthy. The issue on the retail side is that audio stores simply can't stay in business by only selling components anymore.

If anything, I think BB has smartly leveraged the Magnolia brand by moving Magnolia ministores into their Best Buy stores. This expands access to higher end brands, while still keeping some separation from the mass market offerings on the Best Buy floor.


Point is, I don't think the average consumer, well-heeled or not, is going out of his or her way to seek out audiophile style equipment. They're happy with good enough.

And this is nothing new. That's how the market has always been. Back in the 70s, the majority of consumers were purchasing cheap portable record changers and all-in-one compact systems, the 80s were dominated by boomboxes and Walkmans, the 90s saw the emergence of mini-systems and portable CD players, and this decade it's all about the iPod.

[Woochifer]

This poll is ignoring one crucial reason why so-called "audiophile" brands stayed out of big box stores in the first place -- the relationships with the dealers themselves. An audio company cannot simply dump their entry level products into the big box chains without potential repercussions from their independent dealer network.

filecat13 cited JBL as an example of a company that makes entry level speakers and high end products. Well, when was the last time you actually saw a U.S. dealer that carried any of the JBL high end products? At one point, JBL had one of the biggest independent dealer networks of any audio company. But, when JBL began selling their products at big box stores, those dealers dumped JBL in droves. Their rationale was very simple -- why should I promote my competition?

This coincided with the rise of the Canadian speaker companies like Paradigm, Energy, PSB, et al. Many of JBL's former dealers picked up these brands and others like B&W to provide the same entry level to high-end coverage that JBL offered. These dealers are given territorial exclusivity, and in return, these independent dealers help promote the brand and provide a certain level of service.

When JBL went mass market, their brand equity took a nose dive, because those stores offered inadequate demo facilities and indifferent service. And those stores did not carry anything beyond JBL's entry level lines. Overseas, JBL still has a decent reputation precisely because there are still stores that carry their high end offerings (and many of their speakers are tailored to the local markets and built in Denmark).

With the decline in the number of independent audio stores and regional specialty chains, I think that there is recognition by some companies that they have to get in with the Best Buys and Circuit Cities. This is why companies like Klipsch and Yamaha began separating their specialty lines from their other lines. Klipsch now only sells their Synergy line at Best Buy, while Yamaha created the HTR designation for their receivers.

The danger with overreliance on these big box chains is that they can drop a brand, and that company would suddenly lose more than half of their dealer network. Just look at what happened to Harman International. Circuit City had carried the Harman brands (h/k, JBL, and Infinity) for decades, yet they dropped Harman in favor of the D&M brands (Denon, Boston Acoustics).

[hermanv]

Nothing stops the big box stores from carrying these products now except for a couple minor issues.
1. They don't want to.
2. The customers don' want it.
3. The sellers don't want it.

Imagine Joe Ordinary: "Why is this Conrad Johnson $5,000 when the $159 Pioneer has the same watts, more knobs and those cool blinking lights?"

Salesman: Picking his nose and scratching his butt, " I dunno, I'm just here on summer break and they made us promise not to say anything useful." "I own the Pioneer, it's just great!" "Over here are some $139 speakers you could listen for yourself and decide."

[Woochifer]

Yeah, time to dig in the heels.....Somehow or another, Klipsch and Bose have managed to weather it out, in spite of themselves. I'm not going to get into a Bose or Klipsch bash, but do want to underscore your point that the market is heading towards the young and the hip. I haven't read any stereo-mags in awhile, but have had my "feelers" out long enough to recognize a trend, and I think it indicates that the old-men-in-the-salons phenom is fading away...grudgingly, but still fading.

Bose is a different animal from other companies because they're the only audio company that does a lot of national TV advertising. They're well known because of this, and because if you're comparing a Bose system with standard TV speakers, this is the improvement that most consumers hear.


It's a shame that the standard has come to a point that "good enough" flies.

As with my response to filecat13, I will say that the standard was never higher than "good enough" to begin with for the majority of the market. And in fact, I think that the audio quality right now for the majority of the market is head and shoulders above what the average listener was listening to 20 years ago.

For all of the bashing on MP3s, would anybody rather listen to prerecorded cassettes and Walkmans?



While there will always be, no doubt, people whose ears are highly tuned instruments and whose attention span will enable them to detect the very nuances that make great musical performance, this market will--IMHO--continue to lose ground.

How can the market lose ground when most of it never occupied the high ground to begin with? If your focus is on the high end, it's not like you have a dearth of choices there. Even with the midlevel market, the quality of the gear in the affordable price points is actually better than ever, if you consider inflation. For example, my dad's Marantz 2275 receiver cost $600 back in 1976, which is the equivalent of more than $2,000 today. Think it would be hard to find a superior option at that price or even at $600 today?

[bobsticks]

Let's not forget that most "audiophiles" (which was the classification in the title of the thread) don't want to buy their speakers amongst the unwashed. For real equipment fanatics this would be unaceptable. Think cars; there's a difference between a Hyundai and a restored '57 Chevy...and in some circles there's certainly more esprit de corps and status in the latter.

Also, from a supply-side you have to have the production capability to insure timely replenshment to the retailer. That's an awful lot of specialized product to fill the shelves of several thousand B&Ms.

...and all that stuff Woochie said too.

[dread31]

Nope. Am I the only one that's noticed that once a "High End" product hits the mass market----it turns into "run-of-the-mill"? And that's not being "snobby", it's just being realistic. "Mass Market" generally means huge volumes of mediocre (Quickly and cheaply made.) products sold at low prices. "High End" generally means limited production, with extra care taken in design and manufacture, using premium, close tolerance parts.
You can keep costs down somewhat by manufacturing overseas, but high end gear is still going to be more expensive than mass market.

Now, I'm not saying that the mid-level of the industry hasn't made good gear. They certainly have, and at a price more folks can afford. And that's a wonderful thing.
But, I think putting true highend gear on the shelves at Best Buy will do little more than show the mass market consumer that the best gear in the world is still out of their reach. And do little to nothing for high end sales figures.

If you take a high end product and produce it at high volumes with cheaper parts,
so that the Circuit City shopper can afford it, ------is it still "high end"?

In my estimation, the answer is no.

Dave

[bobsticks]

Well said, Dave. And welcome to the forums.

[Woochifer]

Nope. Am I the only one that's noticed that once a "High End" product hits the mass market----it turns into "run-of-the-mill"? And that's not being "snobby", it's just being realistic. "Mass Market" generally means huge volumes of mediocre (Quickly and cheaply made.) products sold at low prices. "High End" generally means limited production, with extra care taken in design and manufacture, using premium, close tolerance parts.
You can keep costs down somewhat by manufacturing overseas, but high end gear is still going to be more expensive than mass market.

No I haven't noticed. What brands are you thinking of specifically? Among the lines carried by Best Buy, I can't think of one that was at any point once exclusively in the high end domain and became a mediocre mass market product.


Now, I'm not saying that the mid-level of the industry hasn't made good gear. They certainly have, and at a price more folks can afford. And that's a wonderful thing.
But, I think putting true highend gear on the shelves at Best Buy will do little more than show the mass market consumer that the best gear in the world is still out of their reach. And do little to nothing for high end sales figures.

That's why Best Buy smartly placed its higher end gear inside of the Magnolia ministores, which are found inside of select BB locations. Magnolia stores carry Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, McIntosh, Primare, and Krell, among other brands.

The problem with your assertion is that the number of high end audio stores is dwindling, and Best Buy in particular has been positioning itself within the higher end market thru its Magnolia subsidiary. It's at a point where manufacturers have fewer and fewer retail options available, and in many communities, the Magnolia ministore is the only place within 100 miles where consumers can sample anything beyond the mass market brands. It takes a big population base to support a high end audio store, which leaves a lot of outlying areas with no options whatsoever.


If you take a high end product and produce it at high volumes with cheaper parts,
so that the Circuit City shopper can afford it, ------is it still "high end"?

In my estimation, the answer is no.

Again, please cite an example. I can't think of anything sold at Circuit City that fits this description of a former high end product cheapened by mass production.

[bobsticks]

Hey Woochie,

I can't speak for Dread, but I don't really consider Magnolia a part of Best Buy per se. Subsidiary, yes but clearly they're a separated entity...different payrolls, distribution and replenishment systems, etc. Hence, not every BB having a Magnolia in it.

Mebbe we need to clarify "Electronics Mega-Stores". I was thinking of Best Buy proper, CC, Fry's and so forth

---sticks

[dread31]

Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.

Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.

Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.

JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.

Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?

No.

And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?

Dave

[hermanv]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

[dread31]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

Yep. me too. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying a little more just for the better service and the opportunity to talk to someone who knows what the heck he (Or she) is talking about.

Don't know about the rest of you folks, but I, for one, am tired of putting up with crappiness in the name of saving few sheckels.

Dave

[Woochifer]

Carver, perhaps? Didn't Bob sell the company to someone who tried to market the brand at Circuit City, et al? Did they not try to use cheaper parts to bring the prices down? Did it not fail? This comes to mind, because I'm one of those who ran to CC and bought some of this stuff, thinking I was getting a deal. It was s**t, to put it bluntly.

Now, granted, not all of the original Carver products were necessarily "high end".
But, they weren't exactly cheap either.

That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.

The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.

Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.

The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.


Some use the example of JBL as an example of this model working.

JBL sells their "mass market" products at "mass market" retailers.

Are their "audiophile" or "high end" products proudly displayed at the
local big box retailer? Can anyone go to BB or CC and pick up a set of Everests?

Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.

Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.


And I doubt that McIntosh will be selling many MA7000s at Best Buy either, not at the current price level. And...............................How do you bring that down?

The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.

[Woochifer]

When they opened a Magnolia here, separate building and staff from the local Best Buy, I thought ho boy, selection and a discount.

They were carrying the smaller Martin Logans, I think I was Parasound equipment all Monster wires. Wow, did it sound awful, hardwood floor hard walls and ceilings made worse by a collection of glass front plasma screens.

When I tried to explain to the salesman, I got blank looks and "it sounds fine to me". The kicker was they wanted full list price. For that price I'll go to the local brick and mortar High End shop and get a good setup, some selection, a little advice, a willingness to mix and match brands for my taste and a little repair facility.

Magnolia still carries some audiophile stuff, but they want to sell you HDTV , they've got hundreds of them, lousy prices. Oh yeah serious overpriced car audio all bass and tweet, never heard of midrange.

The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.

As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?

I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.

[dread31]

That's one example, and one that does not apply to the current business model for CC or BB.

The Carvers that were sold at CC were the same ones that were carried by the local high end salons, albeit a more limited selection of models. They did not use cheaper parts -- Carvers were just badly designed from the outset.

Their so-called magnetic field amps were banned for retail sale in L.A. County by the Fire Marshall because they failed the UL certification tests. That capacitor-less design ran cool and produced huge wattage numbers (the 5 lb. cube amp could be monobridged to output 400 watts on a test bench), but it was also a fire hazard of the highest order and not the best sounding amp in its price range. Carver wound up going in an entirely different direction thereafter with a full lineup of tube and hybrid gear (which I recall came about well after Circuit City dropped the line), which was much better received than their more gimmicky magnetic field amps.

The Circuit City deal happened way before Bob Carver sold the company. Bob Carver went on to start up Sunfire, which is still around.



Read my earlier posts. JBL continues to make high end products, but they always made a full lineup that went from the entry level all the way up to the high end. JBL's problem is that they no longer have a U.S. dealer network in place that sells those products. Dealers dropped them in droves when they began selling their entry level products in big box stores. JBL did not start making inferior versions of their high end products, they merely went into stores that would not carry their high end lines.

Your assertion was that once a brand goes mass market, everything gets mass produced and their quality takes a hit. I just don't it.



The Magnolia mini stores inside of Best Buy allow you to special order anything that the standalone Magnolia stores carry (at least the ones in my area do), which includes the full McIntosh lineup, as well as B&K, Primare, Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber. Not sure about Krell, but those are carried by the standalone Magnolia stores as well.

Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.

The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"

To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.

The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.
Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?
If I wanted to order something I can do it myself. Except for the brands who do not sell over the internet, I will concede.

Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well. It just seems to me that everytime I go into a big box store, and try to talk about the gear, I'm talking to some kid who still has everything to learn, and doesn't really care. He's just trying to get some quick college money and a month from now some other clueless kid will be in his place.

It's not that I have anything against them, everyone has to start somewhere.

So I enjoy hanging out at the local HiFi shop and talking about gear with people who know what their talking about and actually give a damn.

My answer is still and always will be----no.

So sue me.

Dave

[Woochifer]

Right. Exactly. The lower line stuff goes to the low end stores. The higher end stuff goes to highend, or "standalone" Magnolia stores.

The question was, "Should audiophile brands be sold in electronics megastores?"

To my mind, BB and CC are the "megastores". Here on the East Coast, Magnolia
has just recently come on the scene. The only one I have seen is very small, and really doesn't seem to have much.

And your assertion is that once a "high end" brand goes into a big box store, then its quality automatically goes downhill. Last time I checked, BB and CC were not carrying any high end or former high end brands (unless you're counting JBL or Klipsch as high end), aside from whatever the Magnolia ministores stock. So, the precedent for this is quite limited.


The Best Buy nearest me has a Magnolia inside, and there is very little high end inside the Magnolia. The lower end of the line products of high end companies perhaps.

And aren't those the very same high end companies that you presume will go through a precipitous decline in product quality once they are exposed to a mass market environment?


Special order it? Why, when there are other dealers in the area who may have what I'm after in stock?

Aside from demo units and the more popular items (usually in the lower price ranges), everything carried by the audio stores in my area all need to be special ordered as well. Carrying in-box inventory for every model (or even most models) in a store's lineup is just not feasible for independent stores, especially if they're dealing with five-figure items like Dynaudio's Evidence Master or Krell monoblock amps.


Anyhow, maybe I'm just biased because I've been dealing with the local independent stores for most of my life. And I like it that way. I know the salesmen, the managers and even the owners of some of these stores. And all of them know the products they sell very well.

And I've been dealing with independent stores for the better part of 25 years as well. While I like giving them the business whenever I can, I also don't view them thru rosy lenses either. You call out the big box stores for having clueless personnel (in my experience, that's often but not always true). Of course, I can also generalize based on my experiences dealing with snobby and elitist attitudes at many high end stores. In some cases, it's almost like they don't want to deal with me at all unless I pass their litmus test as to what constitutes acceptable sound quality.

And some of the advice that I've gotten at high end stores is highly suspect (i.e., focus on the cables without mentioning anything about room acoustics). Ironically, the only salesperson I've ever met who knew anything about parametric subwoofer equalization worked at Magnolia.

[hermanv]

The emphasis at the Magnolia ministores is home theater. That's why you don't see any two-channel gear on display. Frankly, I'm surprised that the demo room at the Santa Rosa location was all hard surfaced. Every other Magnolia store I've visited has one acoustically treated demo room where they keep the larger Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, along with the front projection setups.

As far as list price goes, did you inquire on the price or did you just look at the price tag and conclude that's all they'll sell it for?

I'm on Magnolia's mailing list and BB's reward program. That's how you get private sale invitations, rebates, and discount coupons. It also doesn't hurt to ask -- those coupon deals are in the computer, and depending on who helps you, they might punch it in and give you at least 10% off. You could also check into their open box items, since the 30-day return is one thing that a high end store typically won't offer.
It is probably true that much of the presentation is up to the local store manager. I was disappointed enough that I've never tried other Magnolia locations.

Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.

I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.

If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.

[Auricauricle]

Think about the brat blowing bubblegum....

It seems to me that at one time or another, the interest in things audiophile was pretty much confined to the cognosceti, who regularly attended concerts, etc., and wanted to reproduce what they heard (to an extent) at home. Because (this is the way my reasoning is going this moment, so stay with me) greater fidelity was needed, the supply was made available. Because most of the people who went to these concerts were very well educated they were generally well-heeled and able to afford top-tier stuff to produce the desired recreation.

As the years went by, increasing numbers of people went to college and education was available for a wider array of humanity, and the base of available consumers shifted from the savvy, well-heeled to the not-so-savvy, middle-class. So more products were made to meet these demands. Good music, but not as much attention to high-quality: just good enough products to placate the masses.

As the class of people with fair knowledge of music, etc., expands the market will correspondingly refect their needs. Having not cut their teeth in the great halls or not knowing the difference between a piccolo and a bassoon, they have no standard by which to guide their taste but the latest Disney Movie a la Broadway or Pirates of the Carribean Icecapades.

In the meantime, the others, who know better will always have a market available. Just as now, with the burgeoning mainstream taking over the market, the number of goods available will get smaller and more expensive.

And then, the reverse will pop back out. The masses will get wealthier, giving them the ability to go to The Met. Increasing quality will be expected, and manufacturers, only happy to please will produce products that suit.

Only to wait for the next round of rabble rousers to inspire the next incarnation of the mediocre.

(A little too much wine here, but a thought to fire accross the bow, in any case!)

[Woochifer]

Our store has a room full of HDTV another room with 5 channel receivers and a small home theater demo room (with no place to sit). A not too serious selling effort.

Sounds like they axed out one of the two demo rooms that typically go into the other Magnolia locations I've seen. Too bad.


I did enquire about pricing on a Samsung DLP they dropped the list from $3,100 (at that time) to $2,900 if I bought the $350 stand. The set was on line at the time for $2,100 without the need to buy the stand. While I understand that there is more overhead to maintain a building and employees, I thought they were high. That set dropped to $1,700 on line the next week with a few places offering free shipping.

Careful though with online prices, because they typically come from unauthorized vendors if the price difference is that large (i.e., no warranty support, and no guarantee that the product is factory sealed or even U.S. spec). You can check on how much the store's willing to come down if you show them the online price quote. In that respect, you might have better luck with an independent store in dealing down. But, don't expect a B&M retailer to totally match an online price, since an authorized unit with a full warranty is not the same thing as an unauthorized unit whose sourcing after leaving the factory is unknown.


If I'm going to pay near top dollar, I expect knowledgeable service and advice. I was told that I would be forced to buy a new set anyway when broadcast went all digital. I live in a fringe area so I have satellite. They knew this and pressed the lie that even satellite users would need a converter box or a new TV.

Call out the manager on that. That kind of BS ain't right, and doesn't help anyone. I know that the other BB locations down in SoCal had been staffing the Magnolia sections with more experienced sales reps. This certainly doesn't sound like the location close to you has done the same due diligence.

[filecat13]

If you're living in L.A., you would not have seen a pre-Best Buy owned Magnolia location, so I don't know what you mean by "assimilation and destruction of the brand." Best Buy acquired Magnolia back in 2000, and their expansion into California occurred only because Best Buy had the deep pockets to finance that expansion. Magnolia's entry into the California market basically knocked both Good Guys and Tweeter out.

Most of the standalone Magnolia locations remain in place because they serve the home installation market where the margins remain healthy. The issue on the retail side is that audio stores simply can't stay in business by only selling components anymore.

If anything, I think BB has smartly leveraged the Magnolia brand by moving Magnolia ministores into their Best Buy stores. This expands access to higher end brands, while still keeping some separation from the mass market offerings on the Best Buy floor.

.

Didn't say that I did.

There was a brand new Magnolia on PCH in Torrance, completely built out in a vacant strip mall space almost immediately after BB acquired Magnolia. It was a pretty good place to go, even if there were mostly old men in there. It was so quiet at times, that I would buy some little thing just to feel like I'd paid something for the use of the building.

On weekends and evenings, things were a bit busier. Without much apparent effort from the parent company, the store slowly cultivated a clientele, and it became busier.

Within a year, the BB three miles down the road on PCH was being renovated for an in-store Magnolia. That's what I mean by "assimilation." When it opened, it was a mockery of the Magnolia brand. Having specialists in different color shirts and having a different supply line can't cover poorly designed listening areas and the stain of flat screens on every square foot of wall space.

None of the types of mid-hi-end equipment on display in the salons of the full store were in evidence. The mix of products was a joke. Sure, you could order anything; you just couldn't see it, touch it, or hear it beforehand.

Shortly after the BB in-store Magnolia opened, the full sized Magnolia was history. Now you know what I mean by "assimilation and destruction."

[pixelthis]

silly silly silly post.
What fine circuitus nonsense.
really, it makes as much sense as an expensive call girl on a street coner with her thumb out, tweeter tried it, look at how it worked out
for them
Big box stores are good for a few things, but for stuff you consider critical, you are just going to need to go to a small dealer, and why you would choose to miss out on that experience is beyond me.
Audio dealers dont get into it for the money (not unless they are really stupid) they get into it for the love.
I cant afford Mcintosh, or even Marantz, mostly, but I can sit and listen to them, or a pair of fifty thousand dollar speakers, and I don't even have to buy anything(at least, not today).
We have made great progress in the quality of the music experience,
the crap the great unwashed listen to today is way better than the crap they used to listen to(small steps)
And we who really like audio, just sitting and listening, well, thats what makes it special, siting on a couch in a small shop listening to
the latest gear and talking shop with the owner and other customers.
You could put the gear in a "big box" store, but not that experience.
Remember, when this started enthusiasts had to build their own gear somethimes, and sometimes still do.
They sell the essentials of life in a Walmart, but never what is
essential:1:

[emaidel]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

Many manufacturers tried to expand their distribution by taking goods that didn't belong into such stores, only to see the merchandise sit, have their existing dealer base tell them to get lost, and then get massive returns from those megastores claiming that the goods were "unsaleable." And all of this is after the manufacturer has dumped tons of money into advertising and promotional expenses demanded by those retailers. It's a "lose - lose" situation all around.

dbx did this in the 90's, due to an arrogant belief on the part of the then president of the company, and he all but bankrupted the company in the process.

[Feanor]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

...

I agree total and finally got a round to voting "No way" myself.

In the end likes of Best Buy are not interested in selling stuff that (1) cannot be sold in volume, and (2) requires any degree of sales person expertise or time with the customer. Price is not the issue per se -- if every day someone will walk and without question in plunk down $5k for 60" HDTV or a Bose system, they're fine with that.

[dread31]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.

Some of these brands have ceased to exist altogether.

Why? Because producing at the demand levels and price points that the megastores required forced manufacturers to cut costs. To manufacture offshore, (Even the Japanese had to move production to lower cost countries.), and use cheaper materials. Hence------The Era of Black Plastic Crap.

Now, granted, this equipment wasn't "audiophile" or "high end" to begin with. Nor was it sold in high end salons. Mostly in appliance stores, or depatrment stores of the day.
True, true.

If that is the "current business model", then the current business model is crap. We've seen it before, we will see it again.
If the high end tries to meet the high volume-low price model of BB, CC, etc. They will be forced down the same road. I pray it never happens.

If you lie down with dogs---you get up with fleas.

I still say------No.

Dave

[Feanor]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.
...

If you lie down with dogs---you get up with fleas.

I still say------No.

Dave

I'm old enough to remember the whole of the era, roughly 1970-1980. This was an era of competion of remarkable well-made equipment. And very handsome too:

Discrete components, that is, PC boards but no ICs -- thus one reason these models are desirable today: they can be repaired
Toggle switches rather than push buttons
Knobs rather than, {shudder}, sliders
Analog tuning dials rather than digital readouts
Silver (or champagne) colored eschelon, rather black anodized or worse, plastic
Wood cases if you wanted them, (though I didn't).No, they weren't all high-end, but in the '70s they were mostly sold in hi-fi shops rather than applicance or department stores.

What really killed off the era, IMO, was the video cassette recorder. People were than and are now inherently more interested in video than in sound. The response of the makers was to cheapen the product.

[Woochifer]

Didn't say that I did.

There was a brand new Magnolia on PCH in Torrance, completely built out in a vacant strip mall space almost immediately after BB acquired Magnolia. It was a pretty good place to go, even if there were mostly old men in there. It was so quiet at times, that I would buy some little thing just to feel like I'd paid something for the use of the building.

On weekends and evenings, things were a bit busier. Without much apparent effort from the parent company, the store slowly cultivated a clientele, and it became busier.

Within a year, the BB three miles down the road on PCH was being renovated for an in-store Magnolia. That's what I mean by "assimilation." When it opened, it was a mockery of the Magnolia brand. Having specialists in different color shirts and having a different supply line can't cover poorly designed listening areas and the stain of flat screens on every square foot of wall space.

None of the types of mid-hi-end equipment on display in the salons of the full store were in evidence. The mix of products was a joke. Sure, you could order anything; you just couldn't see it, touch it, or hear it beforehand.

Shortly after the BB in-store Magnolia opened, the full sized Magnolia was history. Now you know what I mean by "assimilation and destruction."

Actually, the Torrance location's the only full sized Magnolia store in California I know of that has closed since the BB stores began appearing. All of the Bay Area locations have remained open.

If anything, the BB Magnolia locations have expanded the coverage for higher end brands into previously underserved areas. For example, before the Magnolia ministore got added to the Fresno Best Buy location and after Good Guys closed, that town actually had no place whatsoever to demo any AV gear beyond whatever BB, CC, and some appliance stores carried. People wanting to hear Martin Logan speakers or even Denon receivers had to drive more than 100 miles.

The only thing missing from the BB Magnolia locations is two-channel gear, but the name very clearly indicates that the BB locations' emphasis is home theater.

I don't know what you mean by lack of "apparent effort" by the parent company. After making my first purchase at the Santa Clara Magnolia store, I've been getting invites to their frequent private sales and open house events. And the sales reps at that particular store actually call their customers afterwards to check up on how their purchase is working out. I'll grant you that the BB Magnolia locations don't do this.

My concern for Magnolia is not about "assimilation and destruction" by BB, since the Magnolia subsidiary operates under the same management team that ran the chain before BB acquired it. My concern's more about the market trends and how it impacts the Magnolia (and all other audio) stores.

The standalone Magnolia locations have been slowly getting renovated into home installation showrooms. This means fewer demo models on the floor, and more space devoted to home automation and installed systems.

Unfortunately, that's the reality of electronics retailing -- unless they deal in comparable volumes as a big box chain, specialty audio/video stores can no longer survive by just selling components. The home installation services have a much higher margin, and that's how many of the surviving high end audio stores in my area keep their doors open. Magnolia has always had these services with licensed contractors on staff, but it seems that now they are putting more of their product mix into that area.

[Woochifer]

Look what happened to the solidly built, "silverface" equipment that so many mid-level manufacturers such as Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. made in the 1960' through about the early eighties, ------------when the big box megastores appeared.

I believe we refer to it as the era of "BPC", (Black plastic crap.).
Isn't that right, Fellas? Well, those of us old enough to remember, anyhow.

Some of these brands have ceased to exist altogether.

Why? Because producing at the demand levels and price points that the megastores required forced manufacturers to cut costs. To manufacture offshore, (Even the Japanese had to move production to lower cost countries.), and use cheaper materials. Hence------The Era of Black Plastic Crap.

Now, granted, this equipment wasn't "audiophile" or "high end" to begin with. Nor was it sold in high end salons. Mostly in appliance stores, or depatrment stores of the day.
True, true.

To this end I would agree with you.

However, you're also not considering how the price points held steady even while prices across the rest of the economy escalated. The receivers from that era generally occupied the price points between about $200 to $800. Comparing 1975 dollars with 2008 dollars, that equates to a price range of $800 to $3200.

The manufacturers held the price points steady, even with the massive inflation of the mid to late-1970s, and even with the addition of home theater features during the 1990s. How do you think one of today's two-channel integrated amps selling for around $800 would compare with a vintage $200 receiver? I would say that the build quality and audio quality have actually improved in the meantime. If the manufacturers let their price points escalate with inflation, then of course they would be able to maintain the product quality. They would also find the size of their market just as miniscule as it was back in the 1970s.

The reality that so many audiophiles I've talked with over the years ignore is that most consumers have always spent a relatively narrow portion of their income on audio equipment. Those consumers in the 1970s who couldn't afford receivers would buy compact all-in-one systems or portable record changers, and that's where the vast majority of the market was.

Today, those consumers who can't afford to spend $800 on a two-channel amp, have many other options in the lower price ranges that didn't even exist 30 years ago. Instead of having to settle for the audio equivalent of an all-in-one system, they can buy a component-based system for that same budget. Or they'll spend that budget on a portable device like an iPod, since the one constant in the audio market since the mid-70s has been growth in the portable and mobility markets.


If that is the "current business model", then the current business model is crap. We've seen it before, we will see it again.
If the high end tries to meet the high volume-low price model of BB, CC, etc. They will be forced down the same road. I pray it never happens.

Oh please. Is this really the stuff that you pray for? :rolleyes:

The fallacy that you're buying into is that "high end" manufacturers are by definition low volume players. Just look at B&W -- they are the #4 (?) volume speaker manufacturer in the world. Why? Because they market globally and produce a full lineup of speakers from high end all the way down to entry level models. In Britain, B&W speakers are sold thru big box electronics stores, yet I don't see them switching their flagship Nautilus models from exotic composite materials to cardboard and glue because of this. And even JBL came out with the K2 and TiK lines well after they began selling most of their speakers at big box stores.

BB and CC's business model is that they don't carry high end products, outside of whatever BB's Magnolia subsidiary stocks. So, I don't see this as an issue given that there are so many more high end audio companies out there than BB or CC have shelf space for. For BB, their model has worked quite well. For CC, it has not. Conversely, the specialty business model that you seem to promote has equally mixed results if the dwindling number of audio stores in my area is any indication.

[Woochifer]

My answer to this question, like that of a couple of others, is an emphatic, "No." Aside from the fact that that the "space-for-brains" employees at megastores haven't got a clue as to how to explain anything about the benefits of such gear, those stores who do have the wherewithall to explain and demonstrate such merchandise would be totally outraged to see the same gear they spend all their time and effort selling and demonstrating, being sold by some cretin at a megastore based solely on price.

Historically, these dealer relationships have kept a lot of specialty audio brands out of the big box stores (this also would include midrange brands like Klipsch, Onkyo, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha, Denon, and Marantz). But, I think that the line is slowly eroding, primarily because we've lost so many audio/video stores over the past few years.

The JBL example guided the thinking for close to 20 years. Back then, there were enough independent dealers to put a big hurt on JBL when those dealers abandoned the brand en masse after JBL went into big box stores. Manufacturers have since then tried to balance between maintaining good relations with their independent dealers while still finding big box and mail order channels for their products. It still remains to be seen if this can work.

Yamaha and Klipsch only did business with BB after separating out their product lines, changing model numbers and/or face plates, and only selling the entry level products at BB. Same thing goes with HDTVs that wind up at Costco -- they often get rebadged with a new model number, and no product info gets posted on the manufacturers' websites for comparison.

I recall that after Yamaha went into BB, they got dropped by Tweeter and Magnolia (Yamaha has since returned to Magnolia after the ministores inside BB opened). Yet, the independent audio store in my neighborhood continued to carry Yamaha, likely because they were also an authorized Yamaha repair center and got a large portion of their revenues from warranty work.


Many manufacturers tried to expand their distribution by taking goods that didn't belong into such stores, only to see the merchandise sit, have their existing dealer base tell them to get lost, and then get massive returns from those megastores claiming that the goods were "unsaleable." And all of this is after the manufacturer has dumped tons of money into advertising and promotional expenses demanded by those retailers. It's a "lose - lose" situation all around.

That's why you don't see any of the high end brands on the main floor of Best Buy, and it's why they carved out those distinct Magnolia sections in only about 300 of their 1,200 stores. It takes a big population/income base to support an audio store period, and an even higher threshold for high end brands (since consumers looking for high end gear are willing to drive further).


dbx did this in the 90's, due to an arrogant belief on the part of the then president of the company, and he all but bankrupted the company in the process.

I recall dbx's ill-fated foray into the speaker business (didn't Circuit City sell them?). After a few years on the market, they wound up getting rebadged with BSR nameplates and sold thru liquidation catalogs and magazine ads (alongside old DAK catalog stalwarts like the Fone Bone).

dbx I guess was fortunate to have a strong customer base in the pro audio market, and have all that licensing revenue from their MTS stereo TV decoder.

[dread31]

Wooch,

Thank you for the friendly and informative discourse.

I didn't know that B&W was number four in the world, new they were big, but not that big.
That's a good thing, they make nice stuff.

Also didn't know that Carver amps were a fire hazard. Had a few of them and don't recall any flaming episodes. Maybe I just got lucky? Or, perhaps they only burst into flames when used in L.A. County?

Perhaps we audiophiles (Or maybe it's just me.) have a hard time understanding why people don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on audio gear? I'm not a rich man, I'm a mechanic, I work in a coffee cannery. But, I've saved up my money and spent as much as $5,000 on a single component. But, that's me. To each, his own. I say.

Oh, and just because I'm so hardheaded----I still vote ---No.

Dave

[Worf101]

I'm not a fellow of micro-economics but I've spent my fair share of time in Audio/Computer megastores in the last 10 years. The only box store I ever purchased audio from was "Tweeters" which is now long gone. And all I got in there was an open box, basic Sony HT Receiver for an ex-girlfriend. As for high end in the box stores too risky and more prone to failure than success, so my answer would be no.

All the manufacturer will wind up doing is demean his brands cache and squander resources trying to sell Kobe Beef in a MacDonalds. Even the Mega Audio store concept is a failure. Those stores Tweeters etc.. have come and gone but the handfull of boutique audio stores here in the State Capital just keep chuggin' along. I go in them to test certain products but their costs are prohibitive to me for big ticket items.

Bottom line is I think that selling high price gear in megabox stores is a mistake. It dilutes the quality of the product line in a quest for sales that are non-existent. They're thinking Bose not Bryston.

Da Worfster

[emaidel]

I recall dbx's ill-fated foray into the speaker business (didn't Circuit City sell them?). After a few years on the market, they wound up getting rebadged with BSR nameplates and sold thru liquidation catalogs and magazine ads (alongside old DAK catalog stalwarts like the Fone Bone).

dbx I guess was fortunate to have a strong customer base in the pro audio market, and have all that licensing revenue from their MTS stereo TV decoder.


That's not quite what happened. The demise of the dbx speaker line was a result of an ego-manical president who spent a fortune improving the cosmetics of the speakers, and by doing so increased the prices by 50%!! While the new grilles looked really nice, they usually fell off all the time; the multi-angled solid wood bases looked nice too, but were exceptionally expensive to manufacture; and, despite being told by just about everyone else in the company, spending a fortune to install cast-aluminum trim rings around the speakers' ho-hum drivers did nothing to impress anyone. Most of the trim rings (which did look pretty impressive) cost more than the drivers themselves!

The DAK "chapter" came later after the whole company was sold to Carillon Technology Inc. (CTI) who disbanded the dbx consumer line altogether, and had first-rate crap made for DAK and allowed DAK to use the term "Soundfield" in his advertising, even though the junk he was selling didn't even come remotely close to the quality of the standard dbx speaker line, nor did it have the patented Soundfield-imaging dispersion techniques. And, no, Circuit City never sold anything with the dbx name on it, but "The Wiz" in New York did, despite my vehement protests at the time. (Of course, the dbx sales to The WIz were an unmitigated disaster.)

[Woochifer]

Wooch,

Thank you for the friendly and informative discourse.

I didn't know that B&W was number four in the world, new they were big, but not that big.
That's a good thing, they make nice stuff.

I believe that only Bose, JBL, and Klipsch are bigger. B&W was one of the beneficiaries from the JBL fiasco, as stores that dropped JBL wound up picking up B&W to fill out their entry level and midlevel lineup. They offer up one of the largest product lineups of any speaker manufacturer -- lifestyle speakers, in-wall models, bookshelf, floorstanding, iPod docks, etc.


Also didn't know that Carver amps were a fire hazard. Had a few of them and don't recall any flaming episodes. Maybe I just got lucky? Or, perhaps they only burst into flames when used in L.A. County?

The issue in L.A. County was that the Carvers could not pass the UL certification tests, and any electronics item sold in L.A. County had to be UL approved. My understanding is the Carvers actually blew up on the UL test bench. Keep in mind that the UL tests are very demanding, and a lot of manufacturers nowadays clear the UL test by installing an impedance switch and/or protection circuit on the power supply. Carver magnetic field amps had no failsafes built in, presumably because that would reduce the maximum output. With no capacitors, basically this means that the wattage was being drawn in real time from the wall socket -- my friend who sold them held up the power cord and said "This is the storage circuit."

I only know about this because a friend of mine worked at one of Carver's highest volume dealers. Carver was making huge inroads with their gaudy amp specs and claims of exotic technology (in a way they were the equivalent of Bose in the high end world). But, after the Fire Marshall had their say, all of the Carver amps got pulled. The company wound up going in a totally different direction afterwards (that was when Bob Carver fell in love with vacuum tubes).


Perhaps we audiophiles (Or maybe it's just me.) have a hard time understanding why people don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on audio gear? I'm not a rich man, I'm a mechanic, I work in a coffee cannery. But, I've saved up my money and spent as much as $5,000 on a single component. But, that's me. To each, his own. I say.

Oh, and just because I'm so hardheaded----I still vote ---No.

Dave

Figure that the average household spends less than $100 a year on audio gear, so your purchase is taking up the annual allotment for more than 50 of your neighbors. :yikes:

[hermanv]

When I first entered the work force as an EE, I was mentored by a senior person. One of the things he taught me was to identify the difference between a product and a commodity. Made correctly sugar is sugar a commodity, it doesn't matter if it's from beets or sugar cane or where it was made one simply negotiates he lowest possible price per pound.

A product on the other hand has attributes, that is to say specifications. The car analogy is popular here so I'll use it. In the 60's Detroit still made some of the best cars on the planet. Discussions about torque bars vs. springs, coil over vs. leaf sprigs were all the rage in the magazines. The path to upper management in Detroit was through the engineering department. Then gradually marketing took over, suddenly the big issues became stripes and spoilers, little animal icons and horns that went beep, beep. It has all but destroyed Detroit. They still make solid axle rear ends, Chevy is still using a cast iron block initially designed in 1954, that's 54 years old. If it wasn't for smog laws there'd be no fuel injection.

Big box stores are optimized to sell commodities. High end Audio is about products. The big box stores will do their best to fit their supplier into a commodities mold. This virtually guarantees the eventual destruction of the "product" since the seller could care less about dynamic range and 3rd harmonic distortion.

[Ajani]

It's cool to see that the Friday "Brain Fart" Poll I posted, has generated so much discussion....

Had I not been so out of it on Friday, I really would have included some other choices for the Poll....

While I strongly believe that if High End Audio is to continue beyond the remaining lifespan of exisiting audiophiles, it MUST adjust to the times... I don't think that selling Conrad Johnson on a standard shelf at Best Buy, next to some $400 Denon Receiver is going to improve things...

The best model to me remains what I regard as mid-sized stores, ones big enough to cater to the needs of the majority, but small enough to have trained sales staff and a few good demo rooms for more expensive kit... IF, however, Best Buy etc.. can properly utilize in-store Magnolia demo rooms to promote more expensive brands, then I could see Audiophile Brands having real success in a mega-store...

The idea is not to try and sell expensive (Luxury) audiophile products as if they are disposable products (think ipods)... but to be able to expose the general public to higher levels of performance (and price)...

The other option would be for the Luxury brands to remain in their limited boutique shops and try ADVERTISING!!! Yes, I know that sounds shocking... but it works for Lexus, Rolex and Armani, so why not for Krell and Conrad Johnson???

[Woochifer]

I'm not a fellow of micro-economics but I've spent my fair share of time in Audio/Computer megastores in the last 10 years. The only box store I ever purchased audio from was "Tweeters" which is now long gone. And all I got in there was an open box, basic Sony HT Receiver for an ex-girlfriend. As for high end in the box stores too risky and more prone to failure than success, so my answer would be no.

All the manufacturer will wind up doing is demean his brands cache and squander resources trying to sell Kobe Beef in a MacDonalds. Even the Mega Audio store concept is a failure. Those stores Tweeters etc.. have come and gone but the handfull of boutique audio stores here in the State Capital just keep chuggin' along. I go in them to test certain products but their costs are prohibitive to me for big ticket items.

Bottom line is I think that selling high price gear in megabox stores is a mistake. It dilutes the quality of the product line in a quest for sales that are non-existent. They're thinking Bose not Bryston.

Da Worfster


Tweeter is still around, but they've pulled out of most regions including California. It's a shame too because Tweeter became a national chain by acquiring smaller audio chains that operated regionally. They gained entry into the California market by gobbling up the Dow Stereo chain in San Diego (I miss the old Dow radio commercials "D-O-W! Dow now!"), and then opening up additonal Tweeter locations around L.A.

I recall that they also bought up regional chains in Illinois, Georgia, and Florida, among others, and racked up a load of debt and pissed off customers in the process (partly because Tweeter jettisoned many of the product lines carried by the acquired stores in order to insert their own preferred lines).

The high end salons are not the most endangered species in audio retailing, it's really the midlevel specialty chains that are dying off the fastest. A few years ago, the middle market in California was dominated by Good Guys, Tweeter, and Magnolia. These stores basically got most of their revenue through component sales, and nowadays that kind of strategy doesn't work anymore. Now, Magnolia's the only one left standing, if only because they are owned by Best Buy.

I think the void getting created in the middle market is what has pushed Best Buy to begin installing Magnolia sections, which do carry high end brands, inside their megastores. It has also opened up market opportunities for other businesses that might be interested in selling middle market gear.

[bobsticks]

Oh, and just because I'm so hardheaded----I still vote ---No.


Yeah... I've decided that I like Dave.

[GMichael]

Tweeter is still around, but they've pulled out of most regions including California. It's a shame too because Tweeter became a national chain by acquiring smaller audio chains that operated regionally. They gained entry into the California market by gobbling up the Dow Stereo chain in San Diego (I miss the old Dow radio commercials "D-O-W! Dow now!"), and then opening up additional Tweeter locations around L.A.

I recall that they also bought up regional chains in Illinois, Georgia, and Florida, among others, and racked up a load of debt and pissed off customers in the process (partly because Tweeter jettisoned many of the product lines carried by the acquired stores in order to insert their own preferred lines).

The high end salons are not the most endangered species in audio retailing, it's really the midlevel specialty chains that are dying off the fastest. A few years ago, the middle market in California was dominated by Good Guys, Tweeter, and Magnolia. These stores basically got most of their revenue through component sales, and nowadays that kind of strategy doesn't work anymore. Now, Magnolia's the only one left standing, if only because they are owned by Best Buy.

I think the void getting created in the middle market is what has pushed Best Buy to begin installing Magnolia sections, which do carry high end brands, inside their mega stores. It has also opened up market opportunities for other businesses that might be interested in selling middle market gear.



Every time that I have entered a Magnolia section of a BB, I was the only one in there. Couldn't get a Sales Person to even acknowledge that I was there let alone give me any help.

Tweeter still seems to be doing well in CT though. They always seem to have a dozen or so customers in there with at least 4 Sales Reps helping people.

[dread31]

Yeah... I've decided that I like Dave.

Why, Thank You!

My dogma is my emotional security blanket. I won't go anywhere without it.

Dave

[filecat13]

Actually, the Torrance location's the only full sized Magnolia store in California I know of that has closed since the BB stores began appearing. All of the Bay Area locations have remained open.


That's good for the Bay Area, but the reality is that BB closed six Magnolia Stores in August and September 2007:

Arden Fair CA, Clackamas OR, Colma CA, Silverdale WA, Tacoma WA, and Torrance CA.

BB closed another store prior to those six, leaving it with 13 standalone stores, the same number--though not the same stores--as when it first bought the small chain.

During that time period, BB opened 30 in-store Magnolia Home Theater sections in "flagship" locations.

[Chas Underhay]

Ok, it's a Friday and I'm bored, which means Poll Time!!!! So what do you think?

Should 'Audiophile' Brands Be Sold In Electronics Mega-Stores?

There's so much talk about whether or not dedicated HiFi is dying, so should traditional audio brands take a new stance? Should they consider moving away from the snotty small boutique shops and start offloading their entry level products on the major electronic stores (Best Buy, Future Shop, or even local 'mass market' stores)?

I don't know what it's like in the US but in the UK when I was a kid you could go into town and there'd be a butcher, a baker, a grocer, a news agent, a record shop, a hardware shop, a couple of cloths shops etc etc.

You could go into the butcher and order specific types and cuts of meat, You could order specialist magazines from the news agent an get them delivered to your door, The record shop would order records for you and if the hardware shop didn't have the tool you wanted in stock they would order one for you.

Fast forward to the present day and what have we got; a supermarket and a DIY superstore and that's about all. The supermarket quickly put the butcher, the baker and the grocer out of business but they also sell the top 100 CDs so that put the record shop out of business as well, but try and get the supermarket to order a CD for you. They put the news agent out of business but try and get the supermarket to order in a specialist magazine for you, and as for getting it delivered, forget it! They also sell a range of cheap sh1t clothes, cookingware, TVs, stereos and DVD players. You have to take or leave what they choose to stock because alternatives have already or are rapidly disappearing.

The electronics mega stores will cream off only the best selling audiophile equipment, this will put the spcialist HI FI shop out of business and that will be the end of your choices -"this is what we stock, take it or leave it" and there is nowhere else left to go. It doesn't matter how much their staff may know about the equipment or how well they can demonstrate it, your choices will have gone.

[hermanv]

This goes directly back to my discussion about commodities, if price is the ONLY consideration, we will end up exactly as Chaz Underhay predicts.

Ferrari cars are obscenely priced, but they are products not commodities, few will contradict that there is something quite special about their cars. They will survive because even selling a couple of them a year will cover the overhead on a small store. This is not true of high end audio equipment, selling a couple of cables, even ones priced to near silliness will not cover rent and salary of a small store.

So if a big box retailer decides to carry high end there will be two consequences; 1. That product will slowly devolve to the lowest common denominator, i.e. it will become mass market competitive or in my opinion, junk. 2. The local shop selling specialty products will see their profits shrink to point where they will prefer to close rather than poor endless monies to a lost cause.

[dread31]

Hear, hear!

[emaidel]

To fully illustrate why high end gear doesn't belong in mass market retailers, or "megastores," allow me to describe a fiasco at dbx back around 1988.

dbx had a CD player with a proprietary circuit called, "DAIR," for Digital Audio Impact Recovery. DAIR worked nicely, and added a bit of snap to many CD's and Stereo Review, as usual, went nuts over it, but it was a very expensive CD player, and didn't sound quite as good as a comparably priced Denon unit.

The president of dbx ordered a huge number of these players (from the manufacturer, Kyocera), and then got furiously angry because they weren't selling like the Toshiba boxes he was used to selling before coming to dbx. I felt that, if I were given $25 per unit, I could use that money to pay the dealer salesman an extra incentive (called "spiffs" in the industry), or give the dealer additional advertising money, or a multitude of different applications. My suggestion was ignored.

Then, the president, a good friend with the professional thieves running a New York retailer called, "The Wiz" came up with his own, "original" idea: if they bought 1,000 of these CD players, he'd give them $25,000 in advertising money. (Wonder where that idea came from!)

I was adamantly opposed to selling The Wiz any dbx prduct, because the salespeople were about one or two degrees above plant life, and not in any way capable of explaining to their customers what "DAIR" was, or how it worked. The president also gave a "back door" to The Wiz (that is, he allowed them to return any unsold product) after a few months. I saw the end long before it came.

The Wiz spent the $25,000 (not that hard to do in New York), and then, after the allotted time was up, said they wanted to return those that hadn't sold. How many did they want to return? Try 900!!

Of course, the president blamed me, and the New York rep for the sales failure, but the blame fell squarely on his shoulders: certain products don't belong in certain retailers, and any audio gear that requires an effort to sell it will fall flat on its face in big box, megastores, just as this CD player did.

In the end, The Wiz returned over 900 unsold units, including those on demo which were dirty and scratched, and also had spent the $25,000. And guess who got fired? The "geniuis" president! So, at least I had some satisfaction!

[Worf101]

Da Wiz - God how many of those guys are doing time right now. They put the gon in "gonif". After they "reorganized" under Chapter 11 they opened a megastore here in Albany at the premier mall at the time Crossgates. They lasted about 1.5 or 2 years before going belly up again. If you didn't know what you were about they covered you in KY Jelly when you walked in the door. When they were going under though the bargains were "impressive".

Da Worfster

[Ajani]

To fully illustrate why high end gear doesn't belong in mass market retailers, or "megastores," allow me to describe a fiasco at dbx back around 1988.

dbx had a CD player with a proprietary circuit called, "DAIR," for Digital Audio Impact Recovery. DAIR worked nicely, and added a bit of snap to many CD's and Stereo Review, as usual, went nuts over it, but it was a very expensive CD player, and didn't sound quite as good as a comparably priced Denon unit.

The president of dbx ordered a huge number of these players (from the manufacturer, Kyocera), and then got furiously angry because they weren't selling like the Toshiba boxes he was used to selling before coming to dbx. I felt that, if I were given $25 per unit, I could use that money to pay the dealer salesman an extra incentive (called "spiffs" in the industry), or give the dealer additional advertising money, or a multitude of different applications. My suggestion was ignored.

Then, the president, a good friend with the professional thieves running a New York retailer called, "The Wiz" came up with his own, "original" idea: if they bought 1,000 of these CD players, he'd give them $25,000 in advertising money. (Wonder where that idea came from!)

I was adamantly opposed to selling The Wiz any dbx prduct, because the salespeople were about one or two degrees above plant life, and not in any way capable of explaining to their customers what "DAIR" was, or how it worked. The president also gave a "back door" to The Wiz (that is, he allowed them to return any unsold product) after a few months. I saw the end long before it came.

The Wiz spent the $25,000 (not that hard to do in New York), and then, after the allotted time was up, said they wanted to return those that hadn't sold. How many did they want to return? Try 900!!

Of course, the president blamed me, and the New York rep for the sales failure, but the blame fell squarely on his shoulders: certain products don't belong in certain retailers, and any audio gear that requires an effort to sell it will fall flat on its face in big box, megastores, just as this CD player did.

In the end, The Wiz returned over 900 unsold units, including those on demo which were dirty and scratched, and also had spent the $25,000. And guess who got fired? The "geniuis" president! So, at least I had some satisfaction!

Interesting points, but they better illustrate why high end (luxury) gear shouldn't be sold by crooks with stupid return policies, than the issue of megastores...

I think both megastores and boutique stores are having trouble selling cheap and expensive gear respectively... Megastores probably have a rough time because of internet sales from both legitimate and illegitimate competitors. While Boutique stores suffer majorly, because of both the shift towards video and just a general lack of advertizing by the high-end audo community.

I remember walking into a Future Shop store in Toronto a few years ago, to check out a pair of JBL speakers. When I asked the salesman to turn them on, he said that they weren't connected, so I should just buy them and if I don't like them, exchange them for something else... Needless to say, I just left the store without buying anything. If I wanted to just home audition, I would have ordered straight off the net.

On the other hand, I saw 2 boutique stores close down in the same year while I was in Toronto. Both stores had very knowledgable sales staff, who were really willing to let you do a prolonged audition of whatever gear they had on hand... So what was the problem? Well, apart from when I took a friend with me to audition gear, I was usually the only customer in the store. The only reason I knew that the stores existed was because I researched local dealers for specific brands on the brands' websites. How many people (other than existing audiophiles) will do that? How many persons just walking along the street, who see and decide to check out the store, would buy something in the price range of a boutique store product?