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Worf101
07-23-2008, 04:14 AM
For a long time it was Westerns, horror/monster flicks, slasher pics always dramas, disaster flicks for a while you know... fads trends. But the king of them all was westerns, until now. The superhero fad might not be a fad anymore. They keep making them and most of them make plently money, particularly the icons, Batman, Superman and now you'd have to add Spiderman to the mix. This is more than a fad, it's more lasting then that. Why our current fascination with superheros?

Is it because we increasingly see ourselves as powerless against crazed gunmen, terrorists, big inneffective government, economic downturs? Do the Supes scratch our deepseated desire for someone or something to "rescue us"? There's a psych thesis there for someone to think about.

Da Worfster

Rich-n-Texas
07-23-2008, 04:41 AM
To me, the common denominator throughout all of these superhero, western, and even drama genre's is the constant struggle of good versus evil. With very few exceptions, societies want justice and order to prevail.

Your suggestions above are valid as well Worf.

kexodusc
07-23-2008, 04:56 AM
I think it's deeper than the doldrums of current world affairs. For as long as humans have been telling stories, there's been mythical heroes with super powers, often they're dieties with strong cultural/religious importance.

I think as humans we're genetically wired to want to believe in the supernatural - villians and heroes, good and evil just introduce characters and plot into the equation.

The comic genre is just a medium for such story telling with a lot of very common elements (capes, costumes, secret identities, crime fighting, etc).

I think as long as they keep making these films, people will keep watching them - though we may run into a case of too much for awhile, but we'll keep going back.

The comic superhero genre lends itself to Hollywood quite well by incorporating elements of typical action-blockbuster movies of the past (Die Hard/Lethal Weapon) with spurts of comedy, tragedy, etc, while also incorporating a healthy dose of Sci-Fi/Fantasy. (I see Fantasy being the next big trend - all those Dungeons and Dragons spinoff novels and that Magic card game thingy)....

It's here to stay. Good thread, Worf.

GMichael
07-23-2008, 05:30 AM
People need to feel that there's something bigger in life. Something more important than their ho hum existence. And while we're at it, why not dream that they are that something bigger? Heroes give us that. A chance to dream that we are something more. A chance to believe that right make might instead of the other way around. A chance to fly away (or ride off into the sunset).

Auricauricle
07-23-2008, 06:04 AM
Worf et al.: I think you guys are all right, that mythos is a quality of human-ness that has been part of the species' legacy since the creature first pulled itself out of the primordial muck. Imagination, or the ability to cogitate, ruminate and innovate, is so vital to our survival that, without that capacity, we would fall into despair and die. Story telling, like enjoying music or anything that provokes that "tickle" inside, stirs within us, giving us the ability, even if for a moment, to transcend the situation at hand. Whether it is Proust, enjoying a madeline or Gilmour finding the right lick on "Comfortably Numb", these sublime moments enrich our lives and give us the strength to summon that imagination.

This is why imagination, and anything related to it, is so dangerous. Because this resource can be so empowering, it can threaten those who want to use their power to dominate others. When civilizations clash, the artists, story tellers and intellectuals are among the first to go. Without them, people have nothing to inspire, nothing to cling to as a source of strength.

But this is a fallacy. In my work with substance abuse and mental illness, I have seen this this despair, which is profound and awful. Part of recovery is reinstilling a sense of control and self efficacy. For many who have been brutalized and stripped of pride and self-worth, rekindling that inner spark is vitally important.

Even if you have to root about in the darkness every day, every week, you cannot stop. Somewhere in that cave, somewhere in hellish night, there is a source of light. It is your light, and be it a fable, a beautiful strain of music, a memory, a smell or whatever, it is yours alone and is the strength you will draw upon to make it out.

Plus, who among us hasn't put the sheet around our neck and wanted to fly?

Rich-n-Texas
07-23-2008, 06:09 AM
...good and evil just introduce characters and plot into the equation...
IMO a basic tenet of the human experience is that people want to do what's right, so I'd give more emphasis on *good vs. evil* than what you state here Kex. It's true what GM says when he states the people want someone bigger than themselves to look up to, and that's because they want to see an example of the good that we're capable of being.

kexodusc
07-23-2008, 06:38 AM
IMO a basic tenet of the human experience is that people want to do what's right, so I'd give more emphasis on *good vs. evil* than what you state here Kex. It's true what GM says when he states the people want someone bigger than themselves to look up to, and that's because they want to see an example of the good that we're capable of being.

Think your'e misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying the struggle of good vs evil is the least important factor - actually it's the underlying plot of almost every single comic book story I can recall.

But the struggle of good vs evil isn't the primary reason superhero flicks are all the rage right now - war movies, westerns, sci-fis, kung-fu movies, historical epics, etc all have good vs evil as well but aren't nearly as popular today. So logically, the good vs evil factor, a constant across the genres, isn't what's separating the superheroe genre from the pack.

There's something unique about the comic book fantasy world that is appealing to people. And I think it's that uniqueness that Worf is curious about? Good vs evil is the commonality across genres. I think it's the imaginary world, the supernatural, that is more unique and that make them so cool.

I would agree the "good vs evil" plot accounts for the vast majority of all the really great stories in EVERY genre (superheroes included), but I think is less responsible than the distinguishing traits that have created the comic book craze of the last decade or so.

Worf101
07-23-2008, 06:46 AM
When I see this many thoughtfull, rational and well scribed opinions in one thread, dayum.... it makes me feel good and hopefull. You've all given me somethings to think about. This is a MUCH deeper topic than I thought when I dreamt it up. The whole mythos/gods/heroes angle is fascinating. If there were no gods, we'd have to invent them which obviously some civilizations did. Fascinating...

Da Worfster

Auricauricle
07-23-2008, 06:54 AM
Absolutely....I am part of a rutabega worship group..

Have you ever thought that the Bible could be re-written to say, "And man created God in his image...."?

Kam
07-23-2008, 08:52 AM
awesome topic and great responses! some thoughts of my own i've had on the subject....

1. Just saw The Psychology of Batman show on the history channel and if it's still playing, highly reccomend everyone to check it out. very interesting and quite probing as to the superhero genre in general and batman's mythology within it all and why superheroe stories in general resonate within us. Also goes back to the beginnings of psychology and duality of man and all that stuff. really shows, whether conscious or unconscious or subconscious, the brilliance of Bob Kane in creating the batman mythology.

2. It's also the idea of being great at something taken to fantastical levels. The "superhero" idea is the same movies as Die Hard, Armageddon, (any bruce willis movie really) where one guy does what no one else can. The superhero movies just take that idea to extreme levels. But are John MacLaine or John Wayne's characters really any different from any Superhero? (thematically/character development level wise) Hell Cecil B. DeMille made a killin off the "original superheroes" with the 10 Commandments and other biblical epics. The ancient greeks and the "Hero's Journey" is the cornerstone of pretty much all these movies. The movie Wanted that just came out, follows that same ancient greek premise to a "T" if you look it up, you can track every plot point, character, and story development of the movie Wanted to the Hero's Journey. Same with Lord of the Rings, Superman, etc. Comic book superheroes are merely the latest incarnation of the same story.

3. One brilliant point about superheroes (that's explored in some stories more than others) is how they are both revered and feared as being great. Lex Luthor is certainly a mastermind of evil bent on world domination. One of the few people to be able to stop him is Superman... but IF Superman were ever to be evil... who would stop Superman? (yes i know, batman would but go with me here...). It's an interesting phenomenon that we can see that within each Superhero is the potential to be a supervillain.

There's a great x-men story where one of the gods (i think it's loki i'm not sure, i'm paraphrasing the story) casts a spell that makes EVERYONE have a super mutant power. Something latent within them that is exemplified to mutant power status with this spell. This then no longer makes the X-Men "outcasts" as everyone will soon be a "mutant". but of course... there is a price to it all and that price is imagination. Those humans who are 'converted' into mutants lose their imagination in the process. And so the idea of this uniform world of mutants, isn't the case. The 'original' mutants would still be outcasts because they would have imagination, while the 'converts' wouldn't. It's a great story.

4. $$$$ Just look at the all-time list of money makers.... it's nothing but fantasy/sci-fi/superheroes with the few exceptions of (titanic and finding nemo - which is arguably fantasy). IMO, you have to go all the way down to #54 on the list (Meet the Fockers: $516mill) to find the first movie without elements of fantasy/scifi/superheroes. There are others on there infront of Meet the Fockers that may not fall within that specific category... but the characters may as well be superheros. DaVinci Code at #25... that dude is basically a Sherlock Holms-ian superhero. Forest Gump at #30.. autistic superhero. Passion of the Christ at #38... the original superhero.... etc. :)

peace
k2

Auricauricle
07-23-2008, 09:21 AM
Nah, mebbe we're just overanalyzing the whole thing....

MEBBE, JUST MEBBE some of us wanna see Cat Woman and Wonder Woman in a fighting cage....

(Ooops!)

GMichael
07-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Nah, mebbe we're just overanalyzing the whole thing....

MEBBE, JUST MEBBE some of us wanna see Cat Woman and Wonder Woman in a fighting cage....

(Ooops!)

Yet another good point.:hand:

My money goes down on the kitty.:3:

Auricauricle
07-23-2008, 09:54 AM
My money goes down on the kitty.:3:

Oh, that old fee line!:ihih:

Woochifer
07-26-2008, 03:52 PM
I think every genre goes through its cycles. In the case of superhero movies, a lot of factors are contributing to the current cycle of successful comic book adaptations.

As I pointed out in the Dark Knight thread, a lot of this is simply the visual effects technology catching up with what can be depicted in live action. For the longest time, a lot of the superhero powers couldn't translate to the big screen without it looking incredibly cheesy (of course, that didn't stop a lot of low budget projects from getting made).

Comic book characters could always make for a successful summer tentpole movie or sequel franchise, but I think other formulas were simply easier to use before the visual effects tech got to where it is now. After Star Wars, you had a lot of sci-fi movies. In the mid-70s, it was disaster pics. In the decade after the late-80s, you had "Die Hard on a [blank]" action pics. In the mid-90s, the disaster genre was revivied. It's easier to use models or CGI to show objects blowing up than to try and integrate superhero powers with other live action.

Also, I think there was a long-standing prejudice against comic books in general by the studio heads. Warner was always more amenable to comic-derived projects simply because they own DC Comics and could count on multiple revenue streams from a movie project as it spins off cross-promotion and licensing deals. But, to the other studios, comic book characters were considered less than serious material to stake upwards of $100+ million on. Plus, the later Superman and Batman sequels flopped at the box office.

It didn't help that the Marvel movies up until X-Men were all low budget indie projects that didn't make a lot of money. If not for James Cameron's interest in developing Spider-Man, that movie would have also been made in the early-90s into a low-budget indie movie. And if not for Sony Pictures being desperate to develop a movie series franchise, the Spider-Man movies might never have gotten the green light either.

Another factor in the current run of comic book movies is interest from credible directors and screenwriters. Guys like Christopher Nolan, Bryan Singer, Robert Rodriguez, Sam Raimi, and Guillermo Del Toro brought a lot of new energy and ideas into the genre, and I think that gave these movies more credibility not only with audiences, but also with the studio heads who'd been gunshy about approving comic-derived projects.

With the successive box office successes of the recent Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man, and even Superman movies, now you're at the point where studios are willing to take more chances with comic character movies -- some of which have done better (Iron Man, Fantastic Four) than others (Electra, The Hulk).

Mr Peabody
07-26-2008, 09:14 PM
Kam keep in mind Batman is mere human, Superman could crush him, no problem. A utility belt is no match for the man of steel... baby.

No one to date has done the comic book justice like the original Batman series. They even had the words flash on the screen.... BAMB! POW!! OH, SH*T... THAT HURT!.... did they say that?

I think Kex had a point when mentioning the super hero movies are able to incorporate more into them to appeal to a wider audience. I remember hearing that rated "R" movies typically do not make nearly the money a PG-13 would. Is it me or does it seem that the number of rated "R" movies is down over the years? I may be off base but the 80's had Dirty Harry and Bronson in the Death Wish series, people want to see the bad guys get what's coming to them but the super hero is more appealing and a more palletable form of violence, if really you could even call it that. I remember some years back buying the Terminator after it came out on DVD, I hadn't seen it for some years and watching the scene where he knocks on the door and just shoots that lady in the face made me cringe where in the past I can't remember that scene being a big deal. Who knows, maybe the rated "R" movies are still there and I've just changed what I look for since I have a wider audience at home :)

It's also true that Hollywood jumps on fads, they milk them dry and then resurrect them after a few years to squeeze some more. How many of you thanked God the remake of old TV shows fad is over for awhile? If you didn't, you should, remember The Brady Bunch, Beverly Hillbillies, Starsky & Hutch, Miami Vice, need I go on? Now the new fad is Fantasy, Chronicles of Narnia, Golden Compass, Spiderwick, Nim's Island, oh.... and what's that one where the small native tribe helps the people keep their house.... anyway you get the point. We also recently had Kingdom of Heaven, Alexandar, 300 etc. Who knows how long the super hero will go before it goes into hybernation again. It will run as long as the cash flows in.

Kam
07-27-2008, 09:06 AM
Kam keep in mind Batman is mere human, Superman could crush him, no problem. A utility belt is no match for the man of steel... baby.


and yet every time they fight.... batman wins! superhuman everything is no match for one determined human. hhehehehe :D