What kind of reciever to get?

[tensjed]

I listen to lots and lots of music but have not gotten into getting good equipment until this week. So, this week I pikced up a pair of b&w 7nt's in an out of box special for 1400 bucks which i understand is a fair price. The difference between them and the old American Acoustic speakers i was running is incredible. I want to listen to each of my cd's again (i've got 2k or so) the hear what i was missing (and will in time).

The thing is this, as good as the new speakers sound with my system at home compared to the old ones they don't seem to sound nearly as good as they did in the store. I have read reviews here on these speakers and most say that a good reviever/amp is necessary for them. I dont think i have that. I am running a Pioneer vsx-3300 which my wife brought into the marriage 7 years ago. I dont know anything about this reciever but that it was fairly inexpensive and its plenty loud.

So i am in the market for a new reciever. Any thoughts on what would sound really good with a pair of b&w 7nts?

I will use it primarily for music but in the next few years i want to add 3 speakers to set up a theater setting. Even then though, my primary focus will be on music rather than movies.

I would like to get the best value for my purchase. At one point i thought i could spend 500 bucks on a solid reciever to get great sound out of these speakers, but understand after a bit of research that it could cost much more. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I am cross posting this in the HTsection. Thanks Much!

[spacedeckman]

The Pioneer is, by my standards, ahhhh, lacking on all fronts. When it comes to sound, reliability, build quality, and ease of use, I'm pretty solid in the Yamaha camp when it comes to a receiver. If you want good, a new RXV1400 lists for $800, but you could find a holdover 1300 for a lot less. The 1400 has some really cool guy features, but the 1300 will give you all of the amp and less of the price. May be a bit of a search, but not a bad deal.

You will like the bigger frame receivers with the B&Ws, they need a solid kick in the backside to work well. Either of the above will work fine.

[topspeed]

Tensjed, I'm about to save you a lot of money.

First off, congrats on the stellar purchase of the 7NT's. $1400 for a $2K speaker is a good deal by anyone's standards. As an owner of 7NT's you probably read about my trials and tribulations in getting the CDM's to sing. Bottom line, there isn't a receiver out there with the amp section to really drive the 7's adequately, save possibly the Denon 5803 or B&K AVR507. It's obvious you take your music seriously (2,000 cd's is a LOT of music!) so do NOT make the same mistake I did. Go for separates or at the very least an integrated straight away. Don't buy a receiver now and add an amp like I did. It's more expensive my way. There are some preamps such as the PS Audio PCA2 that will serve very well for music now and then when you build your HT system, you simply add a chip and it will process DPL2, DTS, etc. and transform into a pre/pro. Sweet.

The bad news...and you knew this was coming...is that $500 won't buy you anything that will make the 7's sound like you know they can. They crave power. While certainly not inefficient at 90dbs/1w/1m, they play their best with quality amplification. My recommendation is to save a while and get at least another $500 in the till for an amp. You could then find a nice new or used amp like a Rotel, Audio Refinement, PS Audio, or whatnot that will satisfy your jones for great music for years to come. Buy a used 5 channel and bi-amp the 7's until you get the other speaks if you want. If your cd player has a variable output you can plug it directly into your amp until you have the Benjamins for a pre/pro. Believe it or not, this is the way a lot of people build their systems: piece by piece. These are good places to look for deals:
http://audiogon.com/
http://audioadvisor.com/

Good luck and enjoy your 7NT's.

[spacedeckman]

a Yammy 1300 will do just fine with those B&Ws. They are not difficult to drive, just a bit piggish. They aren't some hallowed product handed down from the audio gods, they are speakers made by a company in England that is owned by a Canadian. They are just speakers. They need decent amplification (The 5803 fails miserably in my book as decent amplification, but the B&K is verrry nice) but this is beyond the budget we have been allotted.

I do agree that a $500 receiver isn't going to do very well. That's why I recommended something better that is going to be slightly over what he wanted, but not a big stretch. In essence, a realistic product at a realistic price. Not an overblown pimp rig that is thousands over budget.

Dang, I just got done posting that I was a "nice" audiophile too. I just tend to get worked up when someone makes a budget product from a company that makes expensive stuff is somehow needing equipment way out of its class (or expensive equipment that is posing in another class) to work well. Sorry, I can't buy that.

Tensjed, don't let anyone tell you those speakers are junk unless you spend a bazillion dollars on electronics. They just need a firm grip...an amp that will let them know who is boss. Find a 1300, you won't regret it, and it will only blow you budget a teeny bit. Then be happy that it is making your speakers sound better than that $4000 Denon 5803 ever could. I just saved you well over $3000...do you feel richer yet?

[tensjed]

Thanks all for the advice. I will look into all your suggestions.

I didnt think my b*&w speakers were GOD or somethihng, i just got what i was told was a good deal and they beat the hell out of the old speakers i had. these are my first set of what most people would call "good" speakers and i want to get the most out of them, thats all.

[pieterd]

I didnt think my b*&w speakers were GOD or somethihng....

Quite close, will battle to get better at the price. Get a Rotel, receiver or integrated and you will never look back. The RSX 1055 receiver will do the job, just over your budget, but definitely worth it. I sensed that these forums boost the Yamaha in almost every response, reasonable with all the added features. BUT, when it comes to listening music, it is outperformed by a number of receivers, yes, without the nice to have's...

[topspeed]

a Yammy 1300 will do just fine with those B&Ws. They are not difficult to drive, just a bit piggish. They aren't some hallowed product handed down from the audio gods, they are speakers made by a company in England that is owned by a Canadian. They are just speakers. They need decent amplification (The 5803 fails miserably in my book as decent amplification, but the B&K is verrry nice) but this is beyond the budget we have been allotted.

Piggish? Define "piggish." I've heard of lot of audiophile terms, but that one is new. And where did I say they were the be all end all of speakers? Who owns B&W?


I just tend to get worked up when someone makes a budget product from a company that makes expensive stuff is somehow needing equipment way out of its class (or expensive equipment that is posing in another class) to work well. Sorry, I can't buy that.

Spaceman, I've read this sentence 3 times and still can't figure which way is up. You wanna run that by me one more time?


Tensjed, don't let anyone tell you those speakers are junk unless you spend a bazillion dollars on electronics. They just need a firm grip...an amp that will let them know who is boss. Find a 1300, you won't regret it, and it will only blow you budget a teeny bit. Then be happy that it is making your speakers sound better than that $4000 Denon 5803 ever could. I just saved you well over $3000...do you feel richer yet?

Show me where I said the 7NT's are junk. If I thought they were junk, do you really think I would own them? BTW, do you own 7NT's? I've run mine with both Denon and Yamaha receivers and I can guarantee tensjed that the speakers are a quantum leap better with better amplification. I did this using an spl meter to level match an amp comparo and put a screen up so I could not tell which amps my friends and I were listening to (another friend switched them out. Not absolutely scientific, but close enough) Do the 7's sound sh**tty with either receiver? No, of course not. In fact, they are pretty darn good and better than most to my ears. However, Tensjed remarked that his speakers don't sound as good at home as they did in the store and that he is "trying to get the most out of them." My personal experience has shown me that one of the ways to achieve this is with a better amp. If you think the Yammie 1300's amps sounds better than the 5803 in aaddition to separates, fine. My guess is that you'd be in the minority. Hey, I'd never spend the money for the 5803 either, not when I can get better separates for less money. When you consider that tensjed is far more into music than HT, don't you think he should dedicate his resources to the best music reproduction within reason and then build the HT later? He's got 2000 cd's to go thru! Lord know he's got the time to save.

[spacedeckman]

Piggish: Insensitive, needing a bit of power, better amplification.

B&W=Be-All, End-All: This and many other forums are filled with people who lust after them and assign mystical powers to speakers that bear the name. This wasn't necessarily targeted your direction.

Owner?: A Canuck (Canadian) B&W is one of the few left that isn't owned by an Asian industrialist. The only other one I can think of off hand is Castle.

????: The CDM series is B&Ws midline, where the 600 series is entry level. Both are designed to be used with decent amplification relative to their price points. Sure, a big ballsy amp will do wonders. I just got done with a stint with the big 2 channel Halo, and it was a whole lot o'fun. That's two grand and we have a budget that is far smaller. Just because B&W makes the Nautilus series, which is more difficult to drive, doesn't mean the traits follow to lower series products.

You never said they were junk, only inferred that he really needed to spend big bucks to get an amplifier that would, in a sense, make them worthwhile. I only warned him not to take such statements literally. We have a very realistic budget to get him started. A receiver with a good pre-amp/processor section and full pre-outs and a lot of flexibility. In other words, a great starter, with a forward path. I find this to be a perfect temporarily permanent solution.

I personally find the 5803 to be the worst sounding Denon receiver. It is a muddy, congealed mess. I expect more from Denon than that, they are a better company, and should build products that display that. It was a dog back when it was the 5700, and not much has changed. The magazines still love it, and it never fails to leave me cold. Budget separates? Most of them are a bit on the junky side too. It costs a lot more money to put stuff in two separate boxes, and most of these smaller companies don't have the economies of scale to really do what needs to be done at these lower price points. You really need to be at a point above these "open class" receivers to start to see a lot of benefits, or get a unit that is feature stripped to get a better amplifier for the price point. I'm not saying they can't be out there, just that it isn't going to be an easy find. Just because it comes in two boxes doesn't mean it's better. The additional costs of building this way are enormous. An extra box, power supply, packing materials, owners manuals, CE/UL certification, handling, inventory, transportation, labor, printing, promotional expenses, and even more. Unfortunately, Denon has chosen the pimpy path for the 5803, features over performance. B&K, on the other hand has kept more on the performance path. Not as many features, but a better sounding amplifier. I can live with that. I'm really a two channel guy at heart.

Yes, a bigger amp would be better, but we don't have the budget. We need an affordable solution, one where we don't have to back out and waste money. When it comes time to add an amp, just make sure it actually sounds better than the 1300, many of the budget pieces don't...and buy a two channel, feed the mains, the surround will be fine.

[topspeed]

The CDM series is B&Ws midline, where the 600 series is entry level. Both are designed to be used with decent amplification relative to their price points...Just because B&W makes the Nautilus series, which is more difficult to drive, doesn't mean the traits follow to lower series products.

Actually, the 300 line is entry level. The 600's and CM's are midline while the CDM/700 line is upper mid. N800's are hi-end and Sigs are their exotics. Unfortunately, the CDM's inherited their big brothers desire for power, although nowhere to the same degree. This was addressed in the 700's with their new magnet structure among other things to in fact make them less tempermental and more amenable to a wider variety of amps.

I never said he needed to spend big bucks. If you have $2K speakers, I don't think it's out of line to drive them with a kilobuck amp. If anything, I'm preaching patience. I'm a firm beliver in getting it right the first time and avoiding this bizarre disease that afflicts most audiophiles: upgraditis. I'm courting Ms. Upgrade now because of my mistake and let me tell you Space; She's a b!tch. Have you met her hotter sister? She's a real joy too, her name is Instant Gratification. See what happens is IG seduces you into this horrible menage a trois between you, her and Ms. Upgrade except only one of the three gets screwed. Guess which one? However, do some research, be patient, and maybe work a little harder and you can have a system that will leave you satisfied for...well, EVER.
Hell, for another 3 bills he can buy a new Parasound A23 that will kill the Yammie, Denon, and any other budget receiver and you know it.

I made one of the worst mistakes of my adult life when I jettisoned my beloved two channel system of separates on the road to HT nirvana. I'd wired my house when I built it 6 years ago for this exact purpose and finally decided to get off my ass and finish. Out went the PS Audio pre, B&K amp, Denon cd changer, and Mission Argonauts (kept those tho). In came the Denon 3803, Sony DVD, and a full compliment of B&W CDM NT's. HT was marvelous, music severely lacking. Now here's where it gets expensive, to bring the "magic" of two channel back, I did that amp comparo I told you about. Admittedly, I wasn't in the same price bracket as tensjed because quite frankly, I couldn't find anything that brought my music back to life under $1K. This is not from a lack of trying either. I added a great two channel and now have some semblance of satisfaction when I listen to music. So now I have a 7 channel amp and I'm using 3 of them. Well that's efficient, isn't it? To really bring my two channel back to life, eventually I'll add a preamp (probably tube) with a theater bypass and circumvent the Denon's line stage alltogether. Boy, I'm really getting my bang for the buck now! All of this because I'm far more into music than HT...just like our boy. The 7NT's may only be "mid-fi" to you, but they are one of the best "mid-fi" speakers out there and are very transparent. They also crave power. They're no different from tons of other speakers that need juice: Maggies, ML's, ProAc's, Thiel, etc. In my opinion, if you spend your own hard earned money to buy a particular sound, you should do everything you can to make sure you get it. Running the 7's with an inexpensive receiver is like having a Aston Martin Vanquish with only 2nd gear. There is so much more to be enjoyed!

Seriously tho, who owns B&W? And yes, I know what a Canuck is...hockey player, right?

[spacedeckman]

I've been there before. And yes, the A23 would blow the doors off of any reciever, but you are forgetting the pre-amp, which will be the big budget killer. My path doesn't preclude the A23 later on, and gives a good pre-amp processor section and 6 channels of amp to use now. Full pre-outs are a wonderful thing.

I'm not sure who bought them, but I think it was the importer, or someone close to him.

That dang A21 is eating away at me, but I've just got to say no. I need it like I need a hole in my head. What I really need is a new car this summer, not another amp.

BTW, we agree, except on the B&Ws, but if they are your cup of tea, great. All you have to do is enjoy them. I won't bag on you for having them. Just get a bit tired of the worshippers. Maybe it's kind of like smoking. Ex smokers are the first to get wound up. I formerly had B&Ws.

[tensjed]

Thanks again for all the info and opinioins.

Do you guys have any thoughts on an integrated amp? Can i get one for 1k that will work with these speakers? A guy at work suggested that i go with an integrated solution.

[tensjed]

Specifically, any thoughs on pairing the 7nt's with the Yammy AX 596. This integrated seems to get great reviews and the price is excellent. Is this the kind of integrated amp that can do surround sound if i ever make the jump?

[topspeed]

Specifically, any thoughs on pairing the 7nt's with the Yammy AX 596. This integrated seems to get great reviews and the price is excellent. Is this the kind of integrated amp that can do surround sound if i ever make the jump?

I've never heard the AX 596 but if it has the same sound as Yammie's receivers, then I'd look elsewhere. Their amp's particular "sound" isn't a terrific match for the 7NT's IMO. This isn't a slam on Yammie either because I think they make very well engineered stuff. Look, we both know the 7NT's don't possess mountains of bass like say a Paradigm Studio 100. However, it has far more low end prowess than you've heard except for possibly in the shop where you bought them. To really hear their best you need an amp or integrated that can drive the beejeezus out of the bottom octaves. AudioAdvisor.com has both Roksan and Creek integrateds for $850 right now. Personally, I'd love to hear the Audio Refinement ($995) because I think it'd be a terrific match to the tonal characteristics of the 7's. There are countless others to consider beyond the normal mass market stuff that would serve you well. You're just going to have to listen to a bunch of products and decide what sounds best to you. You never know, it could very well be the Yammie.

Good luck and enjoy the music

[sslabs]

First, I have to say good choice on the speakers. Yes there are those that will make comments (negative or otherwise) but good move IMO. Next, I don't think going $500 on the receiver is the way to go. I know we are all just working folks, but I'd take my sweet time here.

I'm currently looking at getting speakers and I'm torn between a nice pair of Norh 7.0 with the SM cabinets, or something from B&W...... anyway I'm getting off topic. I do agree with the positive comment on the Yamaha because I own a Yam receiver. But when I got mine about 6 months ago, I figured I'd go for the most clean power (lowest THD) best damping factor ect. Now people will say that THD and other specs are just that, but I'm a firm believer in the fact that getting better numbers takes one very important thing - Good Parts - so all things being equal, the quality of the sound will usually be better.

So if the latest codec isn't really your bag, look to the older Yams higher up the line. I skipped the 1400 and went to the V3000 which is a heavy weight when compared. Many of the specs match that of the flagship for that year. I got it new in the box for $600 and the performance for that price is REALLY good I must say. Now there are some downsides. It seems to handle 480P but not high def signals like 1080i. But in the areas where I use the V3000 it works just fine. I've got a Sony C555ES running right into the analog ins bypassing everything for a clean signal and sound.

And My DVD is running on the digital coax and of course the Yam does a swell job handling all the DD and DTS tasks. I could care less about PL-II or a rear center. Although the V3000 does do DD 6.1 matrix and DTS 6.1 in matrix flavor. Also the Yam receivers higher up the line are made in Japan, not malaysia. I can't say for sure so you 1400 (and similar owners please chime in) but they might be made elsewhere. Some will say it doesn't matter, but I prefer Japan if I can afford it.


I plan on getting separates, and since you have decent gear to hold you over (I didn't pre Yamaha) if I were you, I'd get a Sony (gasp I said Sony!) TA-P9000ES pre-amp, and then hunt around for a nice 5 channel amp. There is a 'TA-E' model but no need for that if you don't need processing.

I plan on doing that in the next year or so. I'd like to run my DVD (with built in decoder) using 5 analogs into that pre, and the other set of pre ins will be my Super Audio CD player of course, and I'm all done.

Well audiophiles are never done, but I'll be happy for a while.

Anyway, things to ponder.

p.s, why am I a newbie? I joined and started to post reviews like in 2000? What gives?

- Tony



www.StrangerSoundLabs.com

[markw]

I could care less about PL-II...

p.s, why am I a newbie? I joined and started to post reviews like in 2000? What gives?


Actually, PLII is great for Dolby Surround movies (yes, I still have some VHS tapes) and is kinda fun for some, not all, music. I had no use for the original DPL in music at all but this IS a significant improvement (sometimes). And, most importantly, it's free.

And, this format was totally redone a few months ago. We all got set back to zero.

Welcome back.

[Norm Strong]

The chances are that any difference between the sound of your new speakers in the store, as contrasted with the sound at home, is due to acoustics of the rooms and has nothing to do with the amplifier/receiver. If you still want to buy a new receiver, and you want it to sound like it did at the store, go back to the store and see what they were using for the demo. Buy that.