Denon Complexity

[mrbrad]

I recently worked with a friend of mine trying to set up and configure a new Denon AVR-588 with his new Plasma TV. After over 5 hours of reading the manual and configuring the unit, I gave up and he is returning it to the store.

I found the instruction manual to be confusining, unorganized, and difficult to work with. I have had 2 home theater systems over the past 10 years or so and NEVER has so much trouble setting up a system.

The person I was helping couldn't get past the first few pages before he was lost. A casual user would have NO Chance of getting the system operational. I managed to get 75% of it to work, but couldn't get the job done.

Are all Denon receivers difficult to set up?

[markw]

Are all Denon receivers difficult to set up?Not having set up all Denons. that's a pretty difficult question to answer. I've only set up one Denon, a 2802, and somehow managed to get it to do what I wanted it to do. Considering the onlty "setup" I did prior to that was with two channel analog stuff, I was quite proud of myself.

One thing to keep in mind is that the more a receiver does, the more complex it's setup is likely to be.

You say you got it 75% set up. What was the 25% that gave you problems?

[GMichael]

I had issues setting up my Yamaha back when I first got it too. The manual is very difficult to get through. It's like they tried to make it idiot proof by noting all the things NOT to do. But all that did was to make it more confusing. It took me a few days to get it set up properly and at least a month to get through the advanced features.

Welcome to AR. May you have more luck with your next try.
(Don't get any JVC units. Their manuals are the worst)

[anamorphic96]

I helped a friend set up a Denon 788 and we had similar issues. Denon has the worst user interface that I have ever seen. They sound great but they need to work on the UI. We took his back and picked up the HK 247 and had it set up in 15 minutes.

[pixelthis]

Yamaha is the worst, absolutely.
But really, any receiever will take work, and the owners manuel.
And then you need to use it for a few weeks to see how it needs
to be set up to suit you.
Mine is 3 and a half or so years old and I still need the manuel to make changes, I PULL out the dogeared old thing, and study and plan.
And I feel I am still not getting the complete use outta my gear.
But help is on the way, hdmi is promising to make life a lot easier,
as well as improved GUI'S :1:

[L.J.]

I agree with Pix. You gotta give it some time.

I have a Denon 2805, Onkyo 603 & Yammie 2700. The Yammie is the most complex and I still haven't used all the features and adjustments yet.

[mrbrad]

Follow up, some of the basic things I couldn't get to work:
1. Surround speakers. Using the optical digital audio link from the DVR, I was able to get the front speakers and sub to work, but no surrounds. There are references in the manual about using the surrounds for a 2nd room, but I couldn't figure out how to configure or unconfigure it.
2. Connected progressive scan DVD player to component video inputs, no picture.
3. Connected same DVD player to S-Video in hopes of seeing it and configuring it, no picture
4. I tried repeatedly to get the test tone to work so I could troubleshoot the rear speaker problem and couldn't get it to work. Finally, I tried it one more time and it worked. I have no idea why.

Now that I write this all down, I guess I didn't get 75% working after all.

[GMichael]

Yamaha is the worst, absolutely.
But really, any receiever will take work, and the owners manuel.
And then you need to use it for a few weeks to see how it needs
to be set up to suit you.
Mine is 3 and a half or so years old and I still need the manuel to make changes, I PULL out the dogeared old thing, and study and plan.
And I feel I am still not getting the complete use outta my gear.
But help is on the way, hdmi is promising to make life a lot easier,
as well as improved GUI'S :1:

You should try a JVC manual. Here is a typical problem.

(The functions and page numbers have been changed to protect my failing memory) But the story is still the same.


Gee, it would be great to be able to record this program from the HD to a DVD. Let's check that manual.
The table of contents says to see page 65.
Page 65, recording from HD to DVD. Step 1) See steps 1-4 from page 78. (I hold page 65 open with one finger and flip to page 78)
Page 78, step 1) See steps 1-3 & 7 on page 43. (another finger for page 78)
Page 43, step 1) See steps 1&2 from page 16. (another finger)
Page 16, step 1) See steps 1&2 on page 23. (another)
Page 23, step 1) Plug in unit. Step 2) Turn on power.

Huh? What page do I go back to now? Which finger is next? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh screw it! I'll figure it out on my own!

[pixelthis]

Follow up, some of the basic things I couldn't get to work:
1. Surround speakers. Using the optical digital audio link from the DVR, I was able to get the front speakers and sub to work, but no surrounds. There are references in the manual about using the surrounds for a 2nd room, but I couldn't figure out how to configure or unconfigure it.
2. Connected progressive scan DVD player to component video inputs, no picture.
3. Connected same DVD player to S-Video in hopes of seeing it and configuring it, no picture
4. I tried repeatedly to get the test tone to work so I could troubleshoot the rear speaker problem and couldn't get it to work. Finally, I tried it one more time and it worked. I have no idea why.

Now that I write this all down, I guess I didn't get 75% working after all.

All of those problems are common and are covered in the manuel.
A friend just got A ps3, couldnt get any sound, didnt have the optical cable hooked up.
The PS3 WAS PRETTY NEAT, but I advised him to take it back and get a player, because he will never figure out the PS3.
Next time find a guy with this stuff, pay him 20 bucks to set your stuff up.
The 20$ will be plenty, he'll probably enjoy it
And just in case you're curious, since I've had two Denons...
1) you're DVD was probably not set to DD
2)Denon products only output from composite at first, then you go into the onscreen display and change it, at least thats the way mine was.
3)THats why the SVHS didnt work, also
4) test tones never work on a stereo source, not in any receiver
I HAVE EVER HAD, you were probably in stereo when it wouldnt work,
inadvertently switched to a surround mode and "volia", IT WORKS.
But I agree that some simplfication is called for, this hobby is enjoyable,
and it would be nice if the average "non" geek could enjoy it
without hiring out NASA :1:

[Worf101]

Just back from vacation. I've set up all of the big three. Onkyo's for myself Yammies and Denons for friends. I personally think the Onkyo's mid to high level are pretty easy to set up... FOR THE MOST PART but all require an intutive mind, the patience of a Saint and dogged determination of General Grant to master. Like Pix and others I keep my Onkyo's manual right on the coffee table. I've gotten most if not all the tweaks down to memory but during my last set up for the wide screen I had to set everything back to default to get my opticals to work right. Sigh... not easy be we got her done.

Bottom line is all 5.1 to 7.1 receivers are equally complicated, but to paraphrase Orwell, "some are MORE equal than others".

Da Worfster

[Rich-n-Texas]

I agree with Pix. You gotta give it some time.

I have a Denon 2805, Onkyo 603 & Yammie 2700. The Yammie is the most complex and I still haven't used all the features and adjustments yet.
Yamaha is the most complex, but...

Yamaha is the worst, absolutely.
is a really stupid statement, and you shouldn't say this because you don't know. All you're doing is potentially discouraging readers from purchasing the Yamaha brand because you had a bad experience what, 10 years ago? :rolleyes:

[L.J.]

Yamaha is the most complex, but...

That's exactly what I want. I love the ability to twist, turn and touch everything I want to. You can pretty much adjust anything your little heart desires. This is a good thing for me but may be intimidating for the novice user.

As far as the quality of my unit goes.....I love it!!

[GMichael]

That's exactly what I want. I love the ability to twist, turn and touch everything I want to. You can pretty much adjust anything your little heart desires. This is a good thing for me but may be intimidating for the novice user.

Good point. Flexibility is a good thing.


As far as the quality of my unit goes.....I love it!!

We're still talking about the receiver, right?

[BadAssJazz]

2. Connected progressive scan DVD player to component video inputs, no picture. 3. Connected same DVD player to S-Video in hopes of seeing it and configuring it, no picture.

Don't mean to belabor the obvious, because I don't doubt that you've checked everything, but did you make sure the receiver's outs are assigned properly? Also check that the TV is also set up as well. My very first plasma arrived with the auxiliary disabled for some unknown reason. Took me a second to figure out that I wouldn't get a picture on the "DVD" setting, but on the "Aux" setting, which needed to be enabled.

Sidebar: Someone refresh my memory: was it Denon, Marantz or Sony that had the disclaimer that it was not possible to view a source connected at the component level if the receiver to TV connection was S-video? Anyway, those were the older model receivers, so that may no longer be the case now.


4. I tried repeatedly to get the test tone to work so I could troubleshoot the rear speaker problem and couldn't get it to work. Finally, I tried it one more time and it worked. I have no idea why.

More obvious thoughts, but check the wiring/physical connections on the speakers. Double check the speaker assignments on the receiver. As complex as some of these receivers are, sometimes it's the simplest things that trip you up.

[markw]

Sidebar: Someone refresh my memory: was it Denon, Marantz or Sony that had the disclaimer that it was not possible to view a source connected at the component level if the receiver to TV connection was S-video? Anyway, those were the older model receivers, so that may no longer be the case now.Actually, I think most, if not all, receivers are all like that. Some receivers will transcode (upconvert) from a lower type video signal to a higher one, but I don't think any will DOWNconvert to a lower format.

i.e. some may upconvert from composite or S-video TO component or HDMI but it won't go in the other direction

[Rich-n-Texas]

As complex as some of these receivers are, sometimes it's the simplest things that trip you up.
Amen to THAT brother! I'm the king of that department.

Actually, I think most, if not all, receivers are all like that. Some receivers will transcode (upconvert) from a lower type video signal to a higher one, but I don't think any will DOWNconvert to a lower format.

i.e. some may upconvert from composite or S-video TO component or HDMI but it won't go in the other direction
Correct, correct, correct... AFAIK. This seems to come up quite often. I guess it's because people want backwards compatibility in this area as well.

[Auricauricle]

That's exactly what I want. I love the ability to twist, turn and touch everything I want to. You can pretty much adjust anything your little heart desires. This is a good thing for me but may be intimidating for the novice user.

I reckon that's the same sort of enchantment that I get over the DSP A-2070: the ability to diddle and mess about to your heart's content. It's been a very frustrating task, but when the sound kicks in and everything is hot 'n ready, the sound is quite nice. I think that's part of the fun with this strange hobby of ours: we're not only people who like listening to good music, but we like our gear, too. Not only do we merely set it up and forget it, we like to play with it until everything sounds perfect....

[pixelthis]

Yamaha is the most complex, but...

is a really stupid statement, and you shouldn't say this because you don't know. All you're doing is potentially discouraging readers from purchasing the Yamaha brand because you had a bad experience what, 10 years ago? :rolleyes:

YAMAHA is a great brand, don't get me wrong.
I know you have a new one and I didnt mean to step on any toes.
But face it, rich, and you will come to know this, their ergonomics
suck
Even for a Japanese receiver.
After having one for two years I still couldnt get the radio to work
without looking at the instructions.
And I have had a dozen receivers, at the least, and set up hundreds more.
Thats rediculous, without a decent universal using the thing on a daily basis would be a chore.
The guy who runs Yammies human interface dept must be some bigwigs disgraced cousin, and its not just me, Yamahas' problems with ergonomics are legendary.
They have a lot of goodness, but you have to work for it.
And dont tell me that you're setup has been a complete breeze.
As HT enters the mainstream more and more manufacturers are
going to have to focus more on ergonomics, because more and more non geeks will be using their stuff, and sometimes they dont know a geek they can pay twenty bucks to do setup for them:1:

[Woochifer]

Denon, hands down, has some of the worst owner's manuals I've ever tried to decipher. That said, AV receivers, by their nature, are extraordinarily complicated because of all the backwards compatibility and format handling that they are tasked with. Modern AV receivers not only have to retain the exact same functionality as the early Dolby Surround receivers that did everything from two-channel analog sources, but they now have to handle the newer lossless audio formats. AND these receivers have to handle the litany of audio/video connectors that have emerged over the past 10+ years -- RCA connector (analog audio and composite video), S-video, Toslink, coaxial audio, HDMI.

AV receivers from about 10 years ago were generally analog devices, and included a Pro Logic decoder that would split the surround sound from a two-channel source. You might have some audio effects plus a test tone generator and delay setting. Any multichannel sources were fed through the multichannel analog input.

Since that time, you've seen the follow capabilities get tacked onto even the most rudimentary receivers:

- internal 5.1 Dolby Digital decoders
- separate analog and digital audio inputs for all sources
- separate Toslink and coaxial audio inputs
- S-video and component video switching
- 5.1 DTS decoding
- high res PCM audio decoding (two-channel resolution up to 96/24 using Toslink or coax inputs)
- bass management with variable crossover frequencies
- DD EX
- 6.1 DTS ES
- Dolby Pro Logic II and Neo:6
- 6.1 back surround output, and later on "7.1" back surround outputs
- DTS 96/24
- Dolby Pro Logic IIx
- auto calibration
- parametric equalization
- phase adjustment
- HDMI switching
- 5.1 PCM decoding via HDMI

Some of these features by themselves have a steep learning curve, yet most receivers on the market now have them. The manuals have just kept stacking feature on top of feature, and anyone who's new to home theater basically has to learn the nuances of 20 years of accumulated formats and new common features.

I don't think Denons are any more complicated than other receivers, though I have found their user interfaces less than intuitive, and the manuals just flat out suck. Onkyo, Sony, and h/k have the best user interfaces my experience. The Yamahas can vary -- I find the manuals relatively easy to follow, and the user interfaces are more logical than Denon's; but some of their remotes have not been very well designed.

[trexter]

Denon manuals suck wads. I "upgraded" (supposedly) from a yammie entry level receiver (my first) to a denon AVR2105 (possibly my last)
The YAMAHA manual was a breeze compared to the dyslexic mess I was confronted with by the DENON gobbledegook AND the remote OMG I think learning braile in boxing gloves would be easier than coming to grips with that piece of @@%%#$$
What where they thinking when they designed that!! :O I have to get out a magnifying glass every time I use the danm thing!
I must look like Sherlock Holmes investigating a gruesome homicide,,,, Death by remote!

I found the denon manual and remote to be non intuitive, non logical and a devil to get every thing just right (never ever did get it right).

Even continually referring to the manual made little difference.
Signs of me trying to configure this beast was always evident re wads of screwed up note paper scattering the living room floor and the occasional outburst of fairly foul language.

I was never game to try and re configure this chunk of ballast while I'd been drinking lest I murder someone (death by remote) or heaven forbid ring (or should that be wring?) someone from denon.

This whole fiasco was compounded by the fact that the receiver would mysteriously reset itself or lose key setting in a random pattern.

In the end I just gave up and just did a master reset by holding A/B speaker button down while powering up. This would reset the piece of junk to factory condition (I wish) and then require re setting all delays etc etc.
This master re setting issue was a regular thing.
I quickly lost my intrest in home theatre and DVD watching.

Get a yammie :-D

[blackraven]

I had no trouble setting up my adcom. Although it is not as complex as other AVR's, its an american company and the manual is easy to read and was not converted from japenese or german to english. I have an older JVC AVR whose manual is just a confusing mess as GMichael stated above. The only thing that helped with the JVC was that many of the settings could be done by using the controls on the front panel.