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awdio
07-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Hi,

I'm considering purchasing a record player. I know next to nothing about turntables and have been checking and reading stuff online about different makes and models and am, quite frankly, confused.

1) I'm looking for a good turntable between $150 - $200.
2) How important is direct drive vs belt-drive if I intend to only play records. No scratching.
3) What interface (output/inputs) should I be mindful of? (Phono, RCA etc..)
4) Any thing I'm missing?

I like the Stanton T.60 (with cartridge - I don't know what the cartridge does exactly.) and the Audio Technica AT-PL120.

I'd appreciate any advice/tips.

Thanks!

emaidel
07-10-2008, 03:54 AM
Welcome to AR - I'm sure you'll find your experiences here interesting.

Insofar as a "good" turntable between $150 and $200, you're going to have a difficult search. New turntables selling at those prices, especially the Stanton model you're referring to, are primarily made for DJ's, and are poor choices for quality listening.

The phono cartridge is that squarish looking "thing" at the end of the tonearm which contains the stylus ("needle") that actually touches the record's surface. There are significant differences between cartridges, and those differences can be substantial - price here will definitely be a determining factor. And, if you favor Stanton, be careful here as today, Stanton makes cartridges that are primarily used for DJ's.

There are various opinions regarding belt or direct drive systems as to which sounds better. Audiophiles and purists prefer the belt drive, but then they also purchase turntables well in excess of the price range in which you're looking. Direct drive is inherently stable and long lasting, so that may be a factor for you.

Frankly, I'd suggest you bump up the price point you're considering to around $300, and give the folks at The Needle Doctor a call to see what they've got. Either that, or check online at places like eBay for used turntables. You might be able to get a really good deal there on an older, but still very good, turntable. Be wary though, as online purchases can be frustrating experiences.

In terms of connections, all turntables have a power cord, two leads (the signals for the left and right channels) terminating with what's referred to as an "RCA" plug, and a separate ground wire. I don't know what you intend to connect this to, but many newer receivers don't have phono inputs any more. If your setup has one, then you'll be OK, but if it doesn't, you'll have to plop down another $50 or so for what's called a "phono preamplifier." The signal from a phono cartridge is very low, and the preamplifier boosts it so that you can connect the turntable to the "Aux" inputs on your receiver (if there's no phono input.

Gerard
07-10-2008, 04:30 AM
Hello awdio,

Emaidel's give you solid advice. Reasonable TT's can't really be had at your suggested budget. Used TT's, unless you are lucky enough to inspect it at seller's house, it comes down to luck. And at this point, it is to your advantage to acquire tips on TT set up. May have to include tips on basic trouble shooting as well. If you decide to buy used, a fully manual TT, belt drive, should be your first consideration. Less parts, less to go wrong.

Get one of those semi/auto, or direct drive; more parts that go wrong, then the pcb ... whew !

Also consider that if the TT is powered by a mains ac motor, as in the case of Rega, the speed is dependent on the mains ac frequency. USA 60 Hz, runs a tad fast. UK 50 Hz, runs at right speed.

Cheers!

Chas Underhay
07-10-2008, 08:34 AM
Hi awdio

Although there are a lot of people on here who use vinyl (myself included) most of us had already aquired quite a lot of it before the advent of CD and still want to listen to it.

Where you will be able to buy a CD player for $200 that will sound absolutely fine; getting good results from vinyl doesn't come cheap, a $200 record player would be likely to bitterly disappoint and leave you wondering what on earth people see in it.

I don't want to put you off before you start but you really do need to think carefully about the question: Why do you want a record player?

awdio
07-10-2008, 09:07 AM
Thanks emaidel, Gerard and Chas! I suspected that $200 is too low to get a good quality TT. I'm not a record collector or serious analog enthusiast. But I do love the sound of records; the warmth and pleasing overtones that a CD cannot produce.

I play the bass guitar and have a tube amp and love the sound of it. I guess I am interested in building a good music system on a reasonable budget; and I know "reasonable" is a completely subjective term :).

I want to start buying records for the simple reason that a lot of the music that I like and am interested in is available in LP format. I buy used CDs regularly from my neighborhood used CD store. The last time I went there, the owner and I got into a discussion about the stuff I was buying (Tom Waits, early 80s British synth bands). He suggested that I consider a record player because he has so many records from that era.

I have a mid-range Yamaha receiver, older infinity speakers (that are excellent). In short, I like component systems and don't want one of those home-theater-in-a-box things.

I hope that gives you some clue about my conflicted music enthusiast situation.

So, how much do you think I should consider paying and what brands should I look at? Thanks emaidel for suggesting needledoctor. I came across their website and I intend to call them.

basite
07-10-2008, 10:39 AM
Pro-ject rules the new budget TT range, IMHO, check them out...

a Debut III starts at 350 i think...

but also look at the Denon DP-300F; and maybe a Rega P1...

that's about the cheapest I'd go...

musicoverall
07-10-2008, 11:46 AM
Hi,

I'm considering purchasing a record player. I know next to nothing about turntables and have been checking and reading stuff online about different makes and models and am, quite frankly, confused.

1) I'm looking for a good turntable between $150 - $200.
2) How important is direct drive vs belt-drive if I intend to only play records. No scratching.
3) What interface (output/inputs) should I be mindful of? (Phono, RCA etc..)
4) Any thing I'm missing?

I like the Stanton T.60 (with cartridge - I don't know what the cartridge does exactly.) and the Audio Technica AT-PL120.

I'd appreciate any advice/tips.

Thanks!

It's a nice little turntable and North Country Audio has them on close-out for $269 incl shipping. www.cadencebuilding.com, then click on North Country Audio and then click on Closeouts. If I weren't so computer-challenged, I'd have provided the direct link. :)

emaidel
07-10-2008, 01:23 PM
That AT turntable is available from Full Compass (accessible through amazon.com) for $188, including a "professional" cartridge.

It's a blatant knockoff of the legendary Technics SL-1200, which is far and away, the DJ's turntable of choice. It looks very much like the 1200, but likely has plastic pivot materials (much like the horrible Gemini 1200 knockoff, their PT-2000) and is likely not to perform anywhere near as well as the 1200 - just as the Gemini didn't. The Gemini product, and likely the AT as well, often had tonearms that were crooked, and had the cartridges sitting lopsided on the record surface.

Still, at $188, as opposed to the over $500 pricetag on a new SL-1200, it may be just what you're looking for. I would also seriously question the "professional" cartridge that comes with it, and strongly suggest you purchase something better as your budget allows you: the headshell is a "universal" type, and will accept virtually any moving magnet type cartridge, which your receiver will readily allow you to play without the addition of an external preamp (which the AT turntable has built into it).


You can buy virtually any moving magnet (MM) cartridge from The Needle Doctor, but be careful if you buy the turntable from Full Compass, and then call The Needle Doctor and tell them: their price on the turntable is $288 - $100 more than Full Compass!

My recommendation: buy the AT (at $188 you really can't go wrong), and then after you've had it for a while and decide you really do like the sound of records, then purchase a better cartridge - you won't believe the difference.

Chas Underhay
07-11-2008, 02:24 AM
Hi Awdio

I grew up in the 60s and 70s when vinyl was the only format available.

If I was starting out now and espesially if I were thirty years younger I don't think I'd go out and buy a record player just so that I could buy a few records that were probably available on CD anyway.

People talk about turntables but the most important component (in my opinion) is really the cartridge followed by the phono preamp. It would eat your $200 budget just to get on to the bottom end of decent cartridges.

You talk about warmth and pleasing overtones but much of this will be the charicteristic colouration of both budget record players and valve amps. My record player (turntable, pick up arm, cartridge, phono pre amp and power supplies) would be considered as good quality, pretty close to as good as it gets without spending a kings ransom and guess what; tonally, it's pretty similar to my CD player. The main difference is that when playing vinyl the instruments seem more accurately placed and a little better resolved. Maybe the better resolution is only because my record player is better than my CD player.

If you really do want to go ahead; basite's recommendation of a Project Debut III would be a reasonable start at around $350. I'm not sure which cartridge is currently flavour of the month but allow $200 (do not skimp on it, that is the bit that is tracking the groove on the record and it's as important as the speakers on the other end of the system) and if your receiver hasn't got a phono input, allow another $100 for a stand alone phono preamp.

All the best

Chas

emaidel
07-11-2008, 09:11 AM
I do love the sound of records; the warmth and pleasing overtones that a CD cannot produce.


I have a mid-range Yamaha receiver, older infinity speakers (that are excellent). In short, I like component systems and don't want one of those home-theater-in-a-box things.



By now, awdio, you've received a lot of advice, primarily suggesting you spend more than that which you had intended to. I suggested purchasing the AT turntable (at $188), and then then upgrading the cartridge, but that may likely lead you up the same path many of us here at AR are stuck on: non-stop upgrading, always in search of the elusive "perfect" sounding combination of components.

I would guess that your receiver and speakers retailed (when new) for less than $1,000. If that's so, then a quality Rega or Musical Fidelity turntable, along with a sutably fine cartridge is overkill: you'll never appreciate all of the benefits because your system won't be capable of reproducing them in the first place.

Just curious: what is your basis for claiming that CD's "cannot produce" "warmth, and pleasing overtones?" Some CD players can't do this, but others can, and it would be interesting to know which CD player you own.

If you have a fairly extensive collection of CD's, perhaps the better route to follow would be a newer CD player. I own the Marantz SA-8001 SACD player, and it has provided me with an all new perspective on just how good CD's can sound, and how much better SACD's sound. Unfortunately, at $900 it may be beyond your current budget, but Marantz makes far less expensive CD players that are also quite good. I think you'd be surprised at the "warmth" and pleasant sound a newer CD player can provide, and by purchasing a new CD player, as opposed to a new turntable/cartridge combination, you won't have to go out and start collecting records - you can just enjoy an all new perspective from the CD's you currently own.

One thing all of us "old timers" have learned is that there has to be a synergy to all the components within one's system: if one is of exceptional quality, and the others are only so-so, then the sound of the exceptional component will suffer. I also believe that, if I'm correct about the prices of your equipment, you may actually be quite disappointed in the sound of records as compared to CD's.

SlumpBuster
07-11-2008, 04:45 PM
People talk about turntables but the most important component (in my opinion) is really the cartridge followed by the phono preamp. It would eat your $200 budget just to get on to the bottom end of decent cartridges.


Ding! Ding! Ding! Give that man a cigar! Hit the nail on its head. Carts and needles are really most important. But, I think you can get some very, very good moving magnet carts for $200 that would not be "bottom end of decent." But rather, middle/top end of moving magnet. Moving coil is another matter all together though, and I stick to the MM price range. :thumbsup:

Emaidel and also provided good advice. At least until he questioned getting a turntable at all. :P Go get that AT table for $188. I've actually heard it, through Arcam amps and B&W no less. It is a fine, fine budget table that will accept upgraded carts later. It weighs better than 25lbs and is rock solid. And it is not a knock off of the Technics 1200, but rather a clone. Different arm and drive system, but the rest is the same. Get the table and hit the record and thrift shops. Clean the records well with distilled water and a soft cloth, then spin away. $1 records always sound the best. :D

awdio
07-11-2008, 07:09 PM
Thanks for the advice! You may be right, emaidel. My CD player might be the problem. SlumpBuster said it. All those old records will be great listening. Yeah, $1 and $2 records are the icing. :)

dav305z
07-14-2008, 09:04 PM
Hi awdio

Although there are a lot of people on here who use vinyl (myself included) most of us had already aquired quite a lot of it before the advent of CD and still want to listen to it.

Where you will be able to buy a CD player for $200 that will sound absolutely fine; getting good results from vinyl doesn't come cheap, a $200 record player would be likely to bitterly disappoint and leave you wondering what on earth people see in it.

I don't want to put you off before you start but you really do need to think carefully about the question: Why do you want a record player?
Have to say I disagree with you a little. I'm younger and started out in the vinyl world with very few records. Building my collection over the past six years has been an involving and rewarding hobby. I've found great music for less money than I ever would have spent on CD's, and explored new genres that I would have avoided had the entry fee been $13-$20 a pop rather than $1-$10.

I see what you're saying regarding the budget turntables. The new stuff available under $200 is generally crap, and the used tables often require lots of work and luck. Still, I introduced myself to vinyl with one of those cheap plastic Sony tables, and eventually lucked out by finding my uncle's old Marantz table sitting in his attic. My total investment has probably been about $150 (including several misses on eBay and my Grado Black cart).

My point is that there is a lot to be had for the budget vinyl enthusiast. It just depends on what you're looking for.

Chas Underhay
07-15-2008, 05:58 AM
Have to say I disagree with you a little. I'm younger and started out in the vinyl world with very few records. Building my collection over the past six years has been an involving and rewarding hobby. I've found great music for less money than I ever would have spent on CD's, and explored new genres that I would have avoided had the entry fee been $13-$20 a pop rather than $1-$10.

I see what you're saying regarding the budget turntables. The new stuff available under $200 is generally crap, and the used tables often require lots of work and luck. Still, I introduced myself to vinyl with one of those cheap plastic Sony tables, and eventually lucked out by finding my uncle's old Marantz table sitting in his attic. My total investment has probably been about $150 (including several misses on eBay and my Grado Black cart).

My point is that there is a lot to be had for the budget vinyl enthusiast. It just depends on what you're looking for.

First of all dav305z, welcome to the world of vinyl and I'm glad to hear you are enjoying yourself.

You are not disagreeing with me very much though are you. I only said most people started out on vinyl before CD, I didn't say and I know it's not all!

My aim was to advise awdio that vinyl per se, wasn't (in my opinion) a quick and cheap route to audio heaven. See emaidel's recent thread about vinyl being more involving and also factor in the cost of you having to buy a decent turntable like the Marantz your kind uncle gave you. Add that to the $150 you have already spent and you'd be wildly over awdio's $200 budget.

My other concern was, how much of the music that awdio liked was going to have been released on vinyl because if it was only going to be a dozen or so records, it would be difficult to justify the expense.

My tastes run from very early classical through jazz to rock. All of the music from my youth was only released on vinyl so there is still a stack of stuff in the second hand shops for me to rummage through. A very enjoyable way of skiving off for an hour if I've been collared into going out shopping with the missus, even more enjoyable, is playing them when we get home!

All the best

Chas

dav305z
07-15-2008, 08:15 AM
True, we are mostly in agreement. I think my recommendation would only differ in that I'd say get into vinyl first, even if it's at a low price. The good thing about the vinyl bubble is that if you buy a cheap turntable, and then decide you don't like all the obsessive compulsive activities that go along with the hobby, you can easily recoup your expenses.

The other factor that emaidel touched upon was the level of his entire system. When I started, I had a cheap home theater system. On that system, my Sony TT sounded pretty much equal to the Marantz, and they both sounded about equal to my iPod (different, but equal). Now I have a bit better of a system (although still plenty of room to upgrade...) and there's no question the Marantz is superior to both the other TT and my iPod (which tends to give me a headache after long listening sessions, for some reason).

That leads to the third element. If awdio is around my age (20's), there's a good chance that he came of age like I did on bad CD-R's, MP3's, and cheapo CD players. Most of my peers and I have been priced out of new CD's (it's been several years since I bought myself a new CD, and at that time I was using my parents' money). Compared to the downloaded and burned music I've spent much of my life listening to, even a moderately scratched $2 record returns surprisingly good sound.

Chas Underhay
07-15-2008, 08:59 AM
Compared to the downloaded and burned music I've spent much of my life listening to, even a moderately scratched $2 record returns surprisingly good sound.

That's fine dav305z and I understand where you are coming from but as long as you and awdio can get the music on LPs that you like and want to listen to. Otherwise you'd be better off spending the money on upgrading your CD player, amps and speakers.

Don't forget you can buy second hand CDs for about the same price as second hand LPs.

That was all.

Cheers

Chas

Mash
08-11-2008, 03:32 PM
We have many, many LP here so it made sense (to me) to replace the Thorens TT, which are really kinda wimpy and in retrospect, overpriced. These belt-drive units can feature weak drive motors because the belt gears the motor way down w/r/t the platter.

But first things first: select or identify a cartridge, or families of cartridges, FIRST. Because the tonearm must be compatible with the cart. And try to be sure the cart will be around awhile. Which is what I thought I did.

I had bought some Shure V15VxMR carts in 2003 for $140 which seemed extravagant then but I wanted minimal fuss, multiple tables, and ''backup''. Shure discontinued these in 2004 and now I only find replacement stylii at a dealer who is asking $600 a pop. This should make you think.

Then I bought two Technics SL1200Mk5 fpr $400 each. These TT are battleships, rubber-armored to suppress plinth vibes! Really solid and quiet TT's and the quality is excellent. But you must go to music/DJ sites to get reasonable SL1200 pricing, like Music123, Musician's Friend, PSSL and so on. Sale promotions occur from time to time.

Finally you need a phono preamp. The DJ sites have some for $200.

All told, these Technics setups are $540 with cart, except you can't get the V15VxMR anymore. If you should need the preamp add that $200 on.

E-Stat
08-11-2008, 05:41 PM
All told, these Technics setups are $540 with cart, except you can't get the V15VxMR anymore. If you should need the preamp add that $200 on.
Hi stranger. I use the entirely decent M97XE cartridge in the vintage Ariston/SME rig

rw