ATSC Tuners?

[noddin0ff]

I'm probably one of the rare folks who won't have HDTV an may not have cable when we switch over to digital broadcast. I seen lots of articles about ATSC tuner rebates but very little on OTA ATSC tuners themselves.

Anybody know anything? What to shop for? What they should cost? Should a person wait?

You know, the basics and stuff.

thanks!

[Mr Peabody]

You can get a $40.00 coupon from the government toward a converter box to make your existing TV work. You can also buy cheap TV's that have ATSC tuners but only 480i display. Personally, if I was going to spend the money and pick up over the air signals I'd go ahead and buy a HDTV. The over the air transmission has some of the best HD picture quality second only to Blu ray.

ATSC will allow you to pick up your locals you receive now and if available your locals may offer some additional stations. For instance, here in StL the NBC affiliate has there regular broadcast in HD on 5.1 and a 24 hour weather channel on 5.2. Our PBS station has really gotten into the deal offerin 9.1 - 9.4. One is the regular programming in HD, one is 24 hour PBS kids and I'm not sure the theme of the other two. If other locals follow this trend, free digital over the air signals is going to be a very good thing for the consumer. I assume if you use the converter you will receive all the same stuff but converted to analog 480i to play on your existing TV.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Feanor. I'm curious as to what Tuners are out there? I'm finding it hard to do homework on the tuners themselves.

Probably in about 2 years we'll do the big TV upgrade and then be HD but, since I rarely watch cable, OTA is a real option. And, I'll still have the extra non-HD sets. Currently we use these OTA since they're largely DVD veiwers. I might need tuners to keep them viable.

[noddin0ff]

I think we've just invented the digital fortune cookie.

[Mr Peabody]

I think we've just invented the digital fortune cookie.
L

LOL, that was worth a chicklet but I must have given you one recently.

[Smokey]

I'm curious as to what Tuners are out there? I'm finding it hard to do homework on the tuners themselves.


Radioshack carry three ATSC tuners on their web site for $60 each-with coupon. As Mr Peabody said, you can $40 coupon by calling 888-DTV-2009 or visit www.dtv2009.gov

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=digital-to-analog%20converter&origkw=Digital-to-Analog%20Converter&sr=1

http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-4866411w345.jpg

[pixelthis]

YOU can get a HDTV with an ATSC tuner three to four hundred bucks.
SO whos gonna want one of these?
The wino or crackhead with the motel sign flashing outside
the window?:1:

[noddin0ff]

YOU can get a HDTV with an ATSC tuner three to four hundred bucks.
SO whos gonna want one of these?
The wino or crackhead with the motel sign flashing outside
the window?:1:

Sure, if you want a tiny HDTV. To me that doesn't seem much different than sitting back from the large tube TV I already own. And, of course, one could always do the math. $59 is still less than $300-$400 last I checked. But point taken.

Silly me though. I now see why the internet was failing me. I was searching for 'tuners' rather than 'converters'

I think this might be a good resource.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=186

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Smokey for providing the voucher info.

[pixelthis]

Sure, if you want a tiny HDTV. To me that doesn't seem much different than sitting back from the large tube TV I already own. And, of course, one could always do the math. $59 is still less than $300-$400 last I checked. But point taken.

Silly me though. I now see why the internet was failing me. I was searching for 'tuners' rather than 'converters'

I think this might be a good resource.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=186


its a HUGE difference, and I am gonna get up on the soapbox for you,
smokey, and other HD "holdouts" who might be reading this.

Mainly,
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????

You can get a 37in lcd hdtv for 700 bucks, a 32 in for five hundred up,
a decent 26in for between four and five hundred BUCKS.
I am older, trying to save some scratch for retirement (dont like the taste of alpo) but still managed to get a 37in Vizio when they were selling for a grand.
It was a bit of a sacrifice, but today you can get the same (a litle bit better) set for 749.
That is not a whole lot of money.
This wasnt the first hdtv I have had, but its been the best, its truely the best money I have spent.
EVERYTHING is better, everything.
I READ IN THE EIGHTIES, A COMPANY was doing research,
spending millions, on a new tech to eliminate ghosting.
Who remembers what ghosting even was?
A digital set makes all of those problems go away.
You may think you're saving a buck, watching that old tube that is approaching a decade old, all you are really doing is wasting your time.
As for pic size, I went a week without a set, from the time I sold my
old one until I got my new one.
So I hooked my HD cable tuner to the dvi on my samsung 19" computer monitor (widescreen)
The resulting pic was quite good, I really enjoyed it. Remember when?
When a 19" pic was the standard? My first set was a 19" magnavox,
and was considered a good size.
So with a cable box and a computer monitor for a few hundred bucks you can get some great video and its gotten cheap.
A digital pic is the single greatest improvement you can make in your system, its like the switch from mono to stereo, from black and white to color, its that big
And its not that expensive, are you like the guy who didnt buy a color set untill 1995, because he was "waiting for the price to go down"?
Well, they aint gettin any cheaper.
So to repeat...
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Get thee to a costco, bestbuy, walmart, dollar store, biglots , etc.
WHATEVER .
Just wanted to get that off of my chest.
carry on:1:

[noddin0ff]

And its not that expensive, are you like the guy who didnt buy a color set untill 1995, because he was "waiting for the price to go down"?
Well, they aint gettin any cheaper.
So to repeat...
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Get thee to a costco, bestbuy, walmart, dollar store, biglots , etc.
WHATEVER .
Just wanted to get that off of my chest.
carry on:1:

Lol. I'm waiting for them to get cheaper. They will. I'm patient. When I go HDTV it will be no less than 42", preferably 46-50". HDTV's a luxury, not a necessity for me.

[Hyfi]

I'm probably one of the rare folks who won't have HDTV an may not have cable when we switch over to digital broadcast. I seen lots of articles about ATSC tuner rebates but very little on OTA ATSC tuners themselves.

Anybody know anything? What to shop for? What they should cost? Should a person wait?

You know, the basics and stuff.

thanks!

I do not have cable and plan to keep it that way for as long as I can. I do have 2 HDTVs with ATSC tuners, a roof antenna and a rotor. What you get with OTA Tuners, provided there is a decimal point button on the remote, is lots of sub-channels that you never had.

Examples:

My local stations are 3,6,10,12,17,23,29.....
For every analog station, there is a corresponding digital station as in 3(analog) and 3.1(digital-HD). Some stations have up to 5 sub-channels. Several have all day weather channels.

The main problem I see is weather. Similar to satellite dishes, if it's cloudy and windy, the digital and HD stations break up and go in and out. I am in the process of running all new cabling and a new rotor to see if slight movement clears this up or if on stormy days I will be watching DVDs.

[markw]

YOU can get a HDTV with an ATSC tuner three to four hundred bucks.
SO whos gonna want one of these?
The wino or crackhead with the motel sign flashing outside
the window?:1:It's posts like this that make people think you're a d!ckhead and, frankly, I can't dispuite it.

Not everyone is as fortunate as others. It might serve you well to realize that. Didn't I hear somewhere you used to be a policeman? It's a pity that apparantly compassion isn't one of the requirements.

I've got an elderly aunt on fixed income who has trouble making ends meet. She still watches OTA on her trusty old 27" CRT console (it's furniture to her) TV and will be screwed come next February without those little converters. For her, that $40 coupon can go a long way towards giving her some pleasure in life.

Likewise, I've met quite a few elderly people in my Mom's final years who are in a similar situation and who could care less about HDTV or even cable TV. And I'm doing all I can do to assure they get their coupons.

[pixelthis]

It's posts like this that make people think you're a d!ckhead and, frankly, I can't dispuite it.

Not everyone is as fortunate as others. It might serve you well to realize that. Didn't I hear somewhere you used to be a policeman? It's a pity that apparantly compassion isn't one of the requirements.

I've got an elderly aunt on fixed income who has trouble making ends meet. She still watches OTA on her trusty old 27" CRT console (it's furniture to her) TV and will be screwed come next February without those little converters. For her, that $40 coupon can go a long way towards giving her some pleasure in life.

Likewise, I've met quite a few elderly people in my Mom's final years who are in a similar situation and who could care less about HDTV or even cable TV. And I'm doing all I can do to assure they get their coupons.

Good for them.
my parents are elderly also, even tho still working I CAN SEE HAVING TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.
And most of the elderly dont give a rats patootie about HD, and that is fine.
All I am saying is that a 32in HD set can be had for 500-550 bucks.
So what is the holdup for someone who likes this stuff?
I REMEMBER from another post that your set is nine years old,
and you are thinking about repairs, when repairs would cost about as much as a new set.
Sorry but I just dont see the logic.
And why are you taking this so personally?
Point is that if your means are limited thats even more reason to get one of the new sets, its cheap entertainment.
I get the locals, three public channels , and a few cable channels
over the QAM tuner on my set, dont even need a cable box.
And with an antenna you dont need cable at all.
When your set is nine years old (or older) and it breaks its really a no-brainer as to what to do.
A few years ago they stopped reviewing SD TV in all of the magazines,
because HD is the new standard.
EVEN WITH MARKET PENETRATION at 50% plus, that means that
all enthusiasts should be on the bandwagon by now.
There is simply no greater improvement in your system that can be made, for such a modest price.
If your set breaks and its a choice of a 200$ SD TV vs A 400$
hdtv , where is the logic in buying SD?
I am probably the poorest person on this forum, and it was difficult but I managed to get a HDTV.
THE PRODUCT IS THERE, THE SOFTWARE IS THERE,
and neither is very expensive .
And 2009 is coming up, soon there wont be any SD sets left.
Anybody who is interested in a "converter " that will turn a pristine image into the same 480i crap we've had to live with for sixty years
isnt really an enthusiast, is all I am saying.
AS FOR "being a dickhead" that sir is you're department.
You know damn good and well I am not aiming this post at
elderly people on social security, its just a chance to take a low blow at somebody, which is why I usually make it a point to ignore you,
you viciousness is matched only by your self centeredness
and ignorance.
Then you jump in and pat yourself on the back for "helping" poor old people when you're the personality type that likes to pull the wings
off flies, and wouldnt walk across the street to piss on somebody if they were on fire.
And why I WILL CONTINUE TO IGNORE YOU IN THE FUTURE:1:

[pixelthis]

I do not have cable and plan to keep it that way for as long as I can. I do have 2 HDTVs with ATSC tuners, a roof antenna and a rotor. What you get with OTA Tuners, provided there is a decimal point button on the remote, is lots of sub-channels that you never had.

Examples:

My local stations are 3,6,10,12,17,23,29.....
For every analog station, there is a corresponding digital station as in 3(analog) and 3.1(digital-HD). Some stations have up to 5 sub-channels. Several have all day weather channels.

The main problem I see is weather. Similar to satellite dishes, if it's cloudy and windy, the digital and HD stations break up and go in and out. I am in the process of running all new cabling and a new rotor to see if slight movement clears this up or if on stormy days I will be watching DVDs.


I get those sub channels too, over my QAM tuner hooked straight to my cable.
I could get by without a box, but enjoy the dvr and all of the diversity.
When I first got started with HD I had to put a 30ft mast on the roof,
it was the only HD available.
I breathed a sigh of relief when my cable finally went HD.

And I dont know your situation but most of my "extra" channels
are crap, mostly, weather and advertising:1:

[markw]

Good for them.
my parents are elderly also, even tho still working I CAN SEE HAVING TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.
And most of the elderly dont give a rats patootie about HD, and that is fine.
All I am saying is that a 32in HD set can be had for 500-550 bucks.
So what is the holdup for someone who likes this stuff?
I REMEMBER from another post that your set is nine years old,
and you are thinking about repairs, when repairs would cost about as much as a new set.
Sorry but I just dont see the logic.
And why are you taking this so personally?
Point is that if your means are limited thats even more reason to get one of the new sets, its cheap entertainment.
I get the locals, three public channels , and a few cable channels
over the QAM tuner on my set, dont even need a cable box.
And with an antenna you dont need cable at all.
When your set is nine years old (or older) and it breaks its really a no-brainer as to what to do.
A few years ago they stopped reviewing SD TV in all of the magazines,
because HD is the new standard.
EVEN WITH MARKET PENETRATION at 50% plus, that means that
all enthusiasts should be on the bandwagon by now.
There is simply no greater improvement in your system that can be made, for such a modest price.
If your set breaks and its a choice of a 200$ SD TV vs A 400$
hdtv , where is the logic in buying SD?
I am probably the poorest person on this forum, and it was difficult but I managed to get a HDTV.
THE PRODUCT IS THERE, THE SOFTWARE IS THERE,
and neither is very expensive .
And 2009 is coming up, soon there wont be any SD sets left.
Anybody who is interested in a "converter " that will turn a pristine image into the same 480i crap we've had to live with for sixty years
isnt really an enthusiast, is all I am saying.
AS FOR "being a dickhead" that sir is you're department.
You know damn good and well I am not aiming this post at
elderly people on social security, its just a chance to take a low blow at somebody, which is why I usually make it a point to ignore you,
you viciousness is matched only by your self centeredness
and ignorance.
Then you jump in and pat yourself on the back for "helping" poor old people when you're the personality type that likes to pull the wings
off flies, and wouldnt walk across the street to piss on somebody if they were on fire.
And why I WILL CONTINUE TO IGNORE YOU IN THE FUTURE:1:You must be using some of those drugs you confiscated when you were on the force.

Maybe some of us are satisfied with our old clunky 4:3 sets (with the Proton in the shop, I still have two other SD sets) and are too fargin' cheap to succomb to the pressure to go for an expensive 16:9 set. After all, not all of us are that insecure that we feel the need to play the "keep up with the Pixie " game.

For what it's worth, aside from a few movies, there's not a heckuva lot we watch on the HDTV that requires 16:9 and 4:3 is all I need on those other sets. Yes, we do have other CRTsets as well and are about to jettison cable.

Anbd, as far as taking it personal, when you learn to act like a grown up and stop forcing your half-arsed beliefs on others,them perhaps then I'll treat you with more respect. As for now, I treat you with all the respect you deserve. ..perhaps more since some words aren't allowed on this site.

But, believe me, I'd be glad to pi$$ on you if you were on fire. In fact, you don't even have to be on fire.

Now, continue to ignore me, you pompus a$$hole.

[Mr Peabody]

Hyfi, HD OTA is broadcast in the UHF range I don't see why weather would make any difference on reception. Unless the signal received is just marginal strength and the atmospheric changes during storms is enough to cause it to be weaker. I wonder if they make any of those signal boosters for HD?

[markw]

I wonder if they make any of those signal boosters for HD?That's like wondering if a consumer band FM (88 - 108 mhz) signal booster will work for FM stereo. If a signal booster works for UHF channels, then it will work for HD, which is broadcast on UHF.

[pixelthis]

You must be using some of those drugs you confiscated when you were on the force.

Maybe some of us are satisfied with our old clunky 4:3 sets (with the Proton in the shop, I still have two other SD sets) and are too fargin' cheap to succomb to the pressure to go for an expensive 16:9 set. After all, not all of us are that insecure that we feel the need to play the "keep up with the Pixie " game.

For what it's worth, aside from a few movies, there's not a heckuva lot we watch on the HDTV that requires 16:9 and 4:3 is all I need on those other sets. Yes, we do have other CRTsets as well and are about to jettison cable.

Anbd, as far as taking it personal, when you learn to act like a grown up and stop forcing your half-arsed beliefs on others,them perhaps then I'll treat you with more respect. As for now, I treat you with all the respect you deserve. ..perhaps more since some words aren't allowed on this site.

But, believe me, I'd be glad to pi$$ on you if you were on fire. In fact, you don't even have to be on fire.

Now, continue to ignore me, you pompus a$$hole.

In a minute, as I have a lifetime to ignore you.
First I want to say that I hope you're happy with your SD crap,
treat it well, there wont be any more.
You dont know what you're missing, as is true with a lot of things.
You think movies are the only thing worth watching?
One day you will find out just how good everything looks in HD,
you types have to find out everything for yourself.
you are the one missing out.
Now carry on with your self important little world:1:

[markw]

In a minute, as I have a lifetime to ignore you.
First I want to say that I hope you're happy with your SD crap,
treat it well, there wont be any more.
You dont know what you're missing, as is true with a lot of things.
You think movies are the only thing worth watching?
One day you will find out just how good everything looks in HD,
you types have to find out everything for yourself.
you are the one missing out.
Now carry on with your self important little world:1:Since most of the TV watching is generally kids programs when the grandkids are over, why should I spring for another HDTV? So they can watch Nick or kiddie videos ion a bigger screen?

The lovely Mrs W and I are quite happy with our Toshiba HDTV. We have been for about two years so far. So, I'm quite aware of what I'm "missing out".

Oh, thanks for sharing your family photos with us. I can see a certain family resembelance, particularly in the brain areas

[pixelthis]

Since most of the TV watching is generally kids programs when the grandkids are over, why should I spring for another HDTV? So they can watch Nick or kiddie videos ion a bigger screen?

The lovely Mrs W and I are quite happy with our Toshiba HDTV. We have been for about two years so far. So, I'm quite aware of what I'm "missing out".

Oh, thanks for sharing your family photos with us. I can see a certain family resembelance, particularly in the brain areas

Enjoy your toshiba P.O.S, two years is about how long they last.
The pic is from your family tree, BTW:1:

[markw]

The pic is from your family tree, BTW:1:You remind me of Pee Wee Herman, in more ways than one.

[pixelthis]

You remind me of Pee Wee Herman, in more ways than one.

You remind me of something smelly that got caught on the bottom of my shoe once.
EVERY forum on the web states the obvious, that HD is a new
level of quality.
This is the only forum on the web where stating that will get a
personal attack from some disgruntled troglodyte with a chip on his shoulder.
If it were up to your type, we would still be listening to drama on AM radio.
:1:

[markw]

You remind me of something smelly that got caught on the bottom of my shoe once.
EVERY forum on the web states the obvious, that HD is a new
level of quality.
This is the only forum on the web where stating that will get a
personal attack from some disgruntled troglodyte with a chip on his shoulder.
If it were up to your type, we would still be listening to drama on AM radio.
:1:Yeah, both you and good ole Pee Wee are experts at movies, aren't ya?

Where did I ever say that HD isn't good and a step up in television? Listen carefully. little man, since reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

If you read my posts with a bit of comprehension, you would have come to the conclusion that I do concede that HDTV can be very good. I don't see where I was ever unclear about this. That's why I have one.

I simply don't see the need to rush out and replace every CRT in da house with a brandy new flat screen HDTV. There are some applications where a good old fashioned 4:3 CRT is more than aequate, particularly when they are still perfectly servicable.

Apparantly you don't have many children in your life, and this may be a good thing for the world in general. I can't name one kiddie show on TV that's not in SD 4:3. And, even if they were, do you reallty think they care?

And, as far as AM radio dramas go, I still think we lost something when they disappeared.

Radio made you think and use your imagination. I remember listening Jean Shepard in the 50's and 60's and his brand of story telling is unmatched to this day. The closest I've found is Dave Barry, but he exists in the print medium. Not to mention some scare dramas on 710 WOR in the early seventies could raise the hairs on the back of my neck, and I even had a kick-a$$ stereo then.

But, Garrison Kellior does seem to be trying to keep this medium alive, thankfully

Come to think about it, since these require using your imagination, which can be a form of mental work on ones part, I can see why you didn't like them. It's easier to sit back and let everyone else do all the work for you, isn't it? That way you can shut your mind off and just sit back and have your tounge hanging out of one side of your mouth and drool falling from the other, just like Pee Wee,

It's funny that many complain about the young beilg mentally lazy in their inability to use their imaginations and depend on video games and the boob tube to create their artifical realities but yet, here you are, admittedly less-than-young and at least as mentally lazy as those many castigate.

Face it, Pix. You're a crude, simple man with all the mental capacity for reactions equivalent of a paramecium hiding from the light. What did you say you do for a living again?

[pixelthis]

Yeah, both you and good ole Pee Wee are experts at movies, aren't ya?

Where did I ever say that HD isn't good and a step up in television? Listen carefully. little man, since reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

If you read my posts with a bit of comprehension, you would have come to the conclusion that I do concede that HDTV can be very good. I don't see where I was ever unclear about this. That's why I have one.

I simply don't see the need to rush out and replace every CRT in da house with a brandy new flat screen HDTV. There are some applications where a good old fashioned 4:3 CRT is more than aequate, particularly when they are still perfectly servicable.

Apparantly you don't have many children in your life, and this may be a good thing for the world in general. I can't name one kiddie show on TV that's not in SD 4:3. And, even if they were, do you reallty think they care?

And, as far as AM radio dramas go, I still think we lost something when they disappeared.

Radio made you think and use your imagination. I remember listening Jean Shepard in the 50's and 60's and his brand of story telling is unmatched to this day. The closest I've found is Dave Barry, but he exists in the print medium. Not to mention some scare dramas on 710 WOR in the early seventies could raise the hairs on the back of my neck, and I even had a kick-a$$ stereo then.

But, Garrison Kellior does seem to be trying to keep this medium alive, thankfully

Come to think about it, since these require using your imagination, which can be a form of mental work on ones part, I can see why you didn't like them. It's easier to sit back and let everyone else do all the work for you, isn't it? That way you can shut your mind off and just sit back and have your tounge hanging out of one side of your mouth and drool falling from the other, just like Pee Wee,

It's funny that many complain about the young beilg mentally lazy in their inability to use their imaginations and depend on video games and the boob tube to create their artifical realities but yet, here you are, admittedly less-than-young and at least as mentally lazy as those many castigate.

Face it, Pix. You're a crude, simple man with all the mental capacity for reactions equivalent of a paramecium hiding from the light. What did you say you do for a living again?

A lot more than you.
See, heres your problem, you're such an ASS.
We agree on a lot, but it your attitude that makes it impossible
to deal with you, remember, you started this .
A word of advice, never write a book on how to win friends and influence people.
Sometimes, in order to stir debate I act like an ass,
with you, however its no act.
Talk about a lack of comprehension, of course you dont need a set
HD in q in every app, thats nonsense, but for your main display
its rediculous to keep one of these dinos when HD SETS ARE SO CHEAP, all I am saying.
GET HELP, and get that chip off of your shoulder.:1:

[markw]

no, pix. you're not acting. It comes natural to you. I just respond to your pompus proclamations in kind.

With your blanket statements, you make it so easy to show you for the bufoon you really are. You don't offer suggestions in response to a query, you demand that your advice is the only way out. When you suggest an option in response, I have no problem. But, when you come off as if there are no options except what you posted, I rile.

As I said before you're the proverbial blunt instrument in a light sabre world.

I'm glad you ignored me.

[pixelthis]

no, pix. you're not acting. It comes natural to you. I just respond to your pompus proclamations in kind.

With your blanket statements, you make it so easy to show you for the bufoon you really are. You don't offer suggestions in response to a query, you demand that your advice is the only way out. When you suggest an option in response, I have no problem. But, when you come off as if there are no options except what you posted, I rile.

As I said before you're the proverbial blunt instrument in a light sabre world.

I'm glad you ignored me.

Not an opinion, the only option, as HD is the new standard.
And yes you are a light saber, very transparent:1:

[markw]

Transparant, or sharp?

There ya go, It's your way or no way at all, in spite of what the real world says.

Aside from being as pure and simple as a ball bearing, you're just as dense.

You're also good for your word. Thanks for ignoring me but if you feel must come back, at least try to be original, OK? Your simple retorts are on the level of a 6th grader, and a slow one at that.

[pixelthis]

Well, since you're full of it :1:

[markw]

Here's one of a recent gathering of the guys here at AR.

Guess which one is pixie.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Great comeback Mark. :thumbsup:

[pixelthis]

Here's one of a recent gathering of the guys here at AR.

Guess which one is pixie.


LIKE I CARE

[markw]

LIKE I CAREIf you didn't, you wouldn't bother responding to me.

After all, you DID say you were going to ignore me, right?

Oh yeah, you care all right. You just don't know when to quit.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"The Battle of Evermore" - Led Zeppelin

[markw]

"The Battle of Evermore" - Led ZeppelinI know, it's like pulling the wings off of flies, but I just can't resist.

The more clever he tries to be, the more he shows what a bufoon he is.

BTW. do you know what you get when you pull the wings off of a fly?

...a walk!

Ba da Boom!

[pixelthis]

I know, it's like pulling the wings off of flies, but I just can't resist.

The more clever he tries to be, the more he shows what a bufoon he is.

BTW. do you know what you get when you pull the wings off of a fly?

...a walk!

Ba da Boom!

YOU CANT EVEN PRETEND TO BE CLEVER, where did you hear that joke, read it off a cave wall somewhere?
And you enjoy pulling wings off of flies, funny how the vicious types
just cant help reveling their true natures.
BACK TO IGNORING YOU PUNK, you can head back to the Bus
station bathroom now.:1:

[markw]

BACK TO IGNORING YOU PUNKYeah, right. you've been saying that all throughout this entire thread.

At least remove your head when speaking.