Just Watched the Terminator 3 DVD...

[John Beresford]

...and all I can say is WOW----BIG TIME.

THIS IS the new reference DVD for demo-ing a system, folks---NEVER have I heard such an active, aggressive STANDARD 5.1 Dolby Digital mix as on this DVD. EVERY speaker comes to life during the action sequences, drawing you TOTALLY into the film, and your subwoofer will rattle with lots of spaceships taking off, machines twisting and buildings exploding. This sounds better and more powerful than some DTS mixes I have heard, and I have heard some good ones. I thought my Daredevil DTS disc was a reference quality DVD; THIS blows that away, and T3 is only in DD 5.1....

The film itself was awesome, too. I wasn't a fan of these films until a friend of mine brought the T3 DVD over last night and I think Im going to buy this 2-disc set of T3; I remember him bringing over T2 one night years ago, and THAT sounded incredible, too, but I think it was a DTS soundtrack if Im not mistaken. At any rate, this T3 disc is AWESOME. Really. It makes, believe this or not folks, the "Episode II: Attack of the Clones" 5.1 Surround EX DVD seem weak in comparison---and that disc sounds awesome with special effects and lightsabers whizzing around the room.

Hands down the best action film of the year, and the DVD is astonishing on sound. I am blown away by the fact that this was a mere standard 5.1 Dolby Digital soundtrack; all the DVD's in my collection which only boast 5.1 DD soundtracks sound just average compared to Terminator 3, and this includes titles like "John Carpenter's Escape From LA," "Demolition Man," "Spider-Man," "John Carpenter's Vampires," "Stigmata," "The Patriot" and many more. This is the BEST standard 5.1 Dolby Digital DVD on the planet, I think; sounds were coming from everywhere through my system and the overall playback level was LOUD and aggressive; at "50" on my receiver's volume, it was very, very loud to the point we needed to turn it below 50 because it was getting late in my apartment building; but even at mid-40's, the sound was still aggressive...THIS is the way DVD soundtracks should be...I have DVDs that you cant even HEAR until 60 on the receiver volume, such as "John Carpenter's Halloween" (no matter how many times it was remastered for 5.1 and THX certified, it's still a very low mix), "Texas Chainsaw Massacre: Special Edition" (man, does this "newly mixed Stereo Surround" mix suck; sounds completely useless until you're turning your system almost all the way up), and believe it or not, even "Spider Man" in standard Dolby Digital 5.1; for some reason, you need to turn your receiver volume pretty high on Spider-Man to get a loud mix of dialogue and effects---I need to turn my Onkyo to at least 55 to feel "immersed" in Spider Man....

Not the case with Terminator 3....

[kelsci]

John; I have not rented this disc yet but from your review I am looking forward to it particulaly if you say Episode 2 sounds lame against T-3. In the theater I saw a preview of T-3 some months back and to me the trailer had far better sound then the movie THE MATRIX RELOADED. Some reviews of T-3's disc did not seem to feel the exuberance you felt about this disc's soundtrack. I shall see for myself.

[John Beresford]

John; I have not rented this disc yet but from your review I am looking forward to it particulaly if you say Episode 2 sounds lame against T-3. In the theater I saw a preview of T-3 some months back and to me the trailer had far better sound then the movie THE MATRIX RELOADED. Some reviews of T-3's disc did not seem to feel the exuberance you felt about this disc's soundtrack. I shall see for myself.

Kelsci,

Thank you for the reply; I am very curious which review sites/reviewers were more put off by this soundtrack than turned on, because I cant see how that can be. The soundfield was brimming with effects from every single angle and startled me and my friend a couple of times with surprising explosions and creaks/moans. Check out the sound review they gave of this DVD on dvdangle.com; read what that guy said about it. When you get to the webpage, go in their search engine (pull down "Title" to search for the movie) and type in Terminator 3. Read the review and tell me what you think.

All I know is that MY system was rocking, and as I stated, I was shocked that this was a Dolby Digital mix, not DTS. It sure sounded that aggressive, if not more. And with regard to my Episode II DVD comment, I dont know if you experience this in your system with this film, but there are parts of Episode II -- while an awesome sounding DD EX mix -- that seem low and flat; like John Williams' score somehow dissapears into a vacuum in certain parts and all you hear are the ships whizzing by, but they're not too loud. Terminator 3's sound is constantly loud, and to me, makes the Episode II seem tame, except perhaps for some lightsaber scenes that buzz and whip around the soundfield quite nicely.

[ray5aes]

John,
I posted on T-3 a few days ago (beolw thread) and I couldn't argee with you more. I love this DVD as it rocks hands down. I will say it once more it is my best film of this year.
I plan on watching it again this weekend without the wife & kids so I can really crank it up.
Ray

[kelsci]

John; in answer to your query on which reviewers were notsa so hotsa on T-3 audio track, although I did not check back to re-read reviews, I believe that it was the HOMETHEATHER FORUM and WIDESCREEN REVIEW.COM that did not "bellow" out the fire over the soundtrack. I will take a look at DVD angle and see what they have to say. Remember that I am not doubting what you heard at all. When I heard the trailer in the theater, that sounded pretty fantastic for a trailer. As for CLONES, I would say you are getting a certain feeling about the way the sountrack was handled. That would not be unusual for some to pick up "flaws" others might not pick up or it does not affect them in the way they affected you. Perfectly OK. Although I do not have a sixth channel, the EX sound reproduces itself quite well on CLONES phantomly with many directional cues such as the clone ships passing in one scene from the center channel to just slightly above my left ear. My brother calls this film "insane" actually meaning the soundtrack to him is rather great. I think its "insane" myself.

[kelsci]

John, they were extremely impressed with this soundtrack particulaly the way the sound effects fell into place around the sound field. I generally call this a "meticulous" surround sound recording. I am looking forward to viewing and listening to this film. I am wondering if perhaps something was not being told by Warner's here, since the other sites I mentioned should have had the same experience. Perhaps a boo-boo was made by Warners on some early pressings. It was my understanding this film was supposed to have an enhanced home theater sound track and your comments and DVD angle seem to indicate that is what is on this disc. It is too bad 5.1 did not exist at the time T-2 was made. I have heard T-2s remastered 5.1 surround track as well as its original Dolby Surround track. Sometimes in certain parts of that movie the remastered soundtrack shined and vice versa for the Dolby Surround digital and FM analogue tracks on the laserdisc.

[John Beresford]

John,
I posted on T-3 a few days ago (beolw thread) and I couldn't argee with you more. I love this DVD as it rocks hands down. I will say it once more it is my best film of this year.
I plan on watching it again this weekend without the wife & kids so I can really crank it up.
Ray

Ray,

Yes I noticed you posted on this topic; I apologize for stealing some thunder from you---I hadnt noticed your post until after I posted my findings about this wonderful DVD.

And yes, the only way to watch this DVD is cranked up; while I do not have a wife or kids, I did have a friend over my studio apartment the night we viewed it, and I needed to keep the volume under "50" on my receiver because of the hour; I can only imagine what kind of sound would be produced over "50" with this film...

It truly was a great action film. While it doesnt take awards away from REAL pieces of cinema, this DVD -- judged as a DVD alone -- can take home awards for sound hands down. I thought "Attack of the Clones," "U-571" and "Daredevil" sounded great until I heard this.

[John Beresford]

John; in answer to your query on which reviewers were notsa so hotsa on T-3 audio track, although I did not check back to re-read reviews, I believe that it was the HOMETHEATHER FORUM and WIDESCREEN REVIEW.COM that did not "bellow" out the fire over the soundtrack. I will take a look at DVD angle and see what they have to say. Remember that I am not doubting what you heard at all. When I heard the trailer in the theater, that sounded pretty fantastic for a trailer. As for CLONES, I would say you are getting a certain feeling about the way the sountrack was handled. That would not be unusual for some to pick up "flaws" others might not pick up or it does not affect them in the way they affected you. Perfectly OK. Although I do not have a sixth channel, the EX sound reproduces itself quite well on CLONES phantomly with many directional cues such as the clone ships passing in one scene from the center channel to just slightly above my left ear. My brother calls this film "insane" actually meaning the soundtrack to him is rather great. I think its "insane" myself.

Wow Kel,

Im always on those sites and Im surprised that they didn't lavish their comments on this disc; rather surprising. Do yourself a favor and go rent T3 when you get a chance, and run it in 5.1 Dolby Digital (which is the only English choice on the disc anyway).

With regard to Attack of the Clones, I wouldnt necessarily interpret the Williams' score "dropouts" as "flaws" per se; well, maybe they are -- I think thats just a Star Wars thing, how the music gets low as the ships rush by.

And I have to tell you, I do not have that sixth channel either in my system, and I run the Attack of the Clones DVD's DD EX soundtrack in standard 5.1 also. I dont know what to make of the "ghost" or "phantom" back center surround image in this film; are you really impressed with it? Are folks like us with just the 5.1 setup getting a "good enough" experience with this DD EX soundtrack? Is the ghost/phantom back surround signal drawing us into the film as well as those who have that sixth back channel? I always wondered about this. Where are those "EX" extended signals going when we watch films without that sixth channel, like in "Episode II"?

[John Beresford]

John, they were extremely impressed with this soundtrack particulaly the way the sound effects fell into place around the sound field. I generally call this a "meticulous" surround sound recording. I am looking forward to viewing and listening to this film. I am wondering if perhaps something was not being told by Warner's here, since the other sites I mentioned should have had the same experience. Perhaps a boo-boo was made by Warners on some early pressings. It was my understanding this film was supposed to have an enhanced home theater sound track and your comments and DVD angle seem to indicate that is what is on this disc. It is too bad 5.1 did not exist at the time T-2 was made. I have heard T-2s remastered 5.1 surround track as well as its original Dolby Surround track. Sometimes in certain parts of that movie the remastered soundtrack shined and vice versa for the Dolby Surround digital and FM analogue tracks on the laserdisc.

Kel,

Thank you for your continued observations on this DVD/topic; to answer your inquiry of "this film was supposed to have an enhanced home theater soundtrack..." that is, in fact, very accurate. The back of the DVD box says "5.1 Surround for Ultimate Home Theater Impact..." which makes me believe the Dolby Digital algorithm was remixed for this film and VIVIDLY enhanced over standard 5.1 mixes. NO OTHER 5.1 DVD in my collection -- and mean not one -- sounds as loud, aggressive or in-your-face as this DVD did. As soon as effects are rendered onscreen, all the speakers in a surround system come to life, and you find yourself needing to LOWER the volume, which is usually not the case....I dont know about you, but I often sit there when Im alone to watch a film and find myself constantly raising the volume because you really wanna be immersed in the surround experience; most Dolby Digital soundtracks don't sound so loud, so needing to bring the volume up constantly is common. With DTS, the need to raise the volume is not as great.

With regard to your T2 comment, I believe the T2 Ultimate Edition (or whatever it was called) includes a DTS remix, if I am not mistaken. I remember the same friend who brought over T3 had me watch T2 in this special edition's DTS soundtrack years ago, and it was mind-numbing...right on par with T3's special Dolby Digital mix. Im wondering if you are referring to T2's DTS mix rather than the "5.1" remastered mix you mention...

[recoveryone]

I posted on this DVD on the old forum and concur with all the reviews in here. But to me the most impressive part is the quieter scenes when you can hear the small sounds coming from all different areas: The scene at the department store, when the girl was on her cell phone. I could hear other people walking by and the store music playing in the background, Just like I was standing next to her in the mall.

Speaking of the SW 1& 2 the THX opening with the water. the first time I heard this I thought I had a leak in the kitchen. Movie sounds off camera that make you think is that next door or my system, that is when you have a good mix played on a good system and you don't have to be playing it loud.

[John Beresford]

I posted on this DVD on the old forum and concur with all the reviews in here. But to me the most impressive part is the quieter scenes when you can hear the small sounds coming from all different areas: The scene at the department store, when the girl was on her cell phone. I could hear other people walking by and the store music playing in the background, Just like I was standing next to her in the mall.

Speaking of the SW 1& 2 the THX opening with the water. the first time I heard this I thought I had a leak in the kitchen. Movie sounds off camera that make you think is that next door or my system, that is when you have a good mix played on a good system and you don't have to be playing it loud.

Hey Recovery,

Thanks for your thoughts. Hmmm...I need to watch T3 again to recall which scene you are talking about with the girl on her cell phone -- but I do know what you mean about quiet ambient effects. Those CAN BE the most startling sometimes...like when there is the sudden chirp from a bird or you hear someone yelling off in the distance behind or next to you --- THAT is impressive, no doubt. A scene on the "Training Day" DVD comes to mind here, when Ethan Hawke is walking back into the 'hood to go after Denzel, and you hear some gang members yelling at him, and its supposed to be coming from the rooftops of the apartment buildings -- and the voices come from the left surround channel, I believe -- but it sounds as if someone is actually yelling at you from back there; you hear "What are you doin' in this f***ckin neighborhood, rookie?" or something like that. Quite impressive.

Now, with regard to the THX test in the beginning of Episode I and II, I am not sure if I know what you are referring to; I dont own Episode I, only II (because Im not a real Star Wars nut but Episode II IMPRESSED me very much), so maybe the THX opener you are referring to is only on Episode I; but on Episode II, I believe it's the THX ball that breaks and explodes on the screen, isnt it? I dont remember any water...you mean when the THX logo forms from water-like substance? At any rate, when the thunder rolls and that ball explodes for the THX test signal, it is so startling somtimes it makes my subwoofer snap!

But you are 100 percent right; good systems wont need to be turned up real loud to enjoy subtle ambient off-screen effects; I listen for those in each DVD I watch, and you are right. They are effective. I can recall good soundtracks doing this including "The Exorcist: The Version You've Never Seen Before"; Warner's remixed DD 5.1 EX soundtrack lets you hear every creak of the bed and moan of the demon's voice. You even hear a lot of off screen amibient effects like birds chirping, wind blowing, cars blowing horns softly in the distance, crowd noises---one of the most memorable sound scenes comes when Father Karrass (Jason Miller) is in the bar with his other priest friend, bringing the beers over to the booth...the Allman Brothers' "Rambling Man" is playing and ALL CHANNELS of a surround system are used here---you actually feel like you are in that bar, with the music and college crowd all around you.

[recoveryone]

The scene I was referring to is the one in T3 when the girl was on the her cell phone talking to her dad (the General?Col) while she was out shopping with her then boyfriend, and the thx opening is on EP 1.

I just upgraded my DVD player to a Pioneer Elite DV-45a and re-played some DVD's and was very pleased with the built in Dac's and how they help bring out the subtle sounds I missed before at lower volume settings. I watch my movies late, but with the wife and kids sleeping I have to keep it down a bit.

My System
-----------------------
Mit's WS55805
Mit's VCR HU46 HiFi
Pioneer Elite DV-45a
Pioneer Elite CD-M53
Pioneer Elite 26TX
Pioneer Cassette M6

Speakers
--------------------------
Fronts Optimus L30's
Center Jensen CC
Rear Optimus Pro X77's old style
Sub Optimus Pro SW200

Bedroom
----------------------
Phillips 19"
Phllips VCR HiFi
Pioneer VSX 309
Pioneer DV-525

Speakers
----------------------
Fronts Optimus Pro X77's old style
Center Optimus CS3
Rear Optimus Pro X77's old style
Sub KLH SW120


The fronts are mounted 7' high at a 20 degree down turn
Rears are mounted the same at a 15 degree down turn
the room is 18x35
I mounted the rears on the back wall about 6' behind the couch

The bedroom is standard set up (dobly standard) for the rears on the side, but the fronts are sitting on top of closet shelf area about 8' up with the TV and center speaker. The vaulted ceiling gives a nice effect even watching regular analog TV and sound.

[John Beresford]

The scene I was referring to is the one in T3 when the girl was on the her cell phone talking to her dad (the General?Col) while she was out shopping with her then boyfriend, and the thx opening is on EP 1.

I just upgraded my DVD player to a Pioneer Elite DV-45a and re-played some DVD's and was very pleased with the built in Dac's and how they help bring out the subtle sounds I missed before at lower volume settings. I watch my movies late, but with the wife and kids sleeping I have to keep it down a bit.

My System
-----------------------
Mit's WS55805
Mit's VCR HU46 HiFi
Pioneer Elite DV-45a
Pioneer Elite CD-M53
Pioneer Elite 26TX
Pioneer Cassette M6

Speakers
--------------------------
Fronts Optimus L30's
Center Jensen CC
Rear Optimus Pro X77's old style
Sub Optimus Pro SW200

Bedroom
----------------------
Phillips 19"
Phllips VCR HiFi
Pioneer VSX 309
Pioneer DV-525

Speakers
----------------------
Fronts Optimus Pro X77's old style
Center Optimus CS3
Rear Optimus Pro X77's old style
Sub KLH SW120


The fronts are mounted 7' high at a 20 degree down turn
Rears are mounted the same at a 15 degree down turn
the room is 18x35
I mounted the rears on the back wall about 6' behind the couch

The bedroom is standard set up (dobly standard) for the rears on the side, but the fronts are sitting on top of closet shelf area about 8' up with the TV and center speaker. The vaulted ceiling gives a nice effect even watching regular analog TV and sound.

Yeah, Im gonna have to re-watch T3 (or eventually buy it because it sounded so good; the copy I watched belonged to a friend who happened to have it on him the night we hung out at my place) and recall the scene you are talking about; right now, off the top of my head, all I can recall are the major action scenes, like the crane ripping through the streets. And as for the THX "water" sequence you mention, that could be why I didnt know what you were referring to, because I only own Episode II -- and that opens with the thunder booming in the distance, and that ball exploding to render the THX logo in a melted-metal kind of graphic that wraps the THX test signal all around you through all surround speakers -- quite impressive, but, as I said, if a subwoofer is up too high, makes the sub pop very loudly because that ball exploding is VERY powerful.

Your system(s) sound impressive; my setup consists of the gear in my signature, and it's all set up in a studio apartment, and although I dont have a wife or kids to worry about, I do have neighbors and have to watch those levels late at night. The Polk mains and surrounds are on stands, with the mains to the left and right of my wall unit (which houses the equipment and TV), and the center channel right on top of the TV (but sitting atop the wall unit). The surrounds, also on stands as mentioned, sit to the left and right of the black leather couch, turned slightly inward toward the sweet spot. The sub sits to the right of the wall unit, next to the right main speaker.

[kelsci]

OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY John; I finally rented and watched T-3. I enjoyed this film. It's a masterpiece compared to MATRIX RELOADED which was dreadful in the movies and on DVD as well. The soundtrack is very balanced and well recorded. Dialog reproduction was nearly perfect. Dynamic Range when applied to certain scenes was superb. The sound quality was very smooth particulaly the bass response. I could have cranked it up, but I was not looking to go deaf anymore than I am. While not and EX film, there was some very good center back surround imaging as well as overall surround imaging out of all speakers. This film stands on its own merits.
I considered it an excellent rental, but I did not find this film to be one that I would repeatedly view specific scenes.

John; your receiver is a 6.1 channel receiver. I gather you do not have that extra channel hooked up probably because there is not enough space to place it behind your seating area which is a problem for many with 6.l. Can one hear the EX phantomly from a 5.1 system? Depends really on the surround speaker placement. Mine are set up like the Dolby website. They are near the top of my ceiling. It is possible for me to hear sounds at any point between the speakers if there is sound to reproduce. In fact it is not unusual to hear sounds hitting me just to the sides of my ears whizzing by. I have other ways to get the phantom mode to play depending on the system. Some receivers have had virtual ex modes not requiring a center rear speaker. Whether their phantom modes worked better then a unit without s specific phantom mode I cannot answer. Some Yamahas had this. I know that the JVC 7030 and 8030 although 6 channel receivers have a virtual mode if you do not have the room for the 6th speaker. Episode 2 is loaded with EX sounds. If you hear sounds between the surround speakers like right above your head, then you are getting the phantom EX effect. This is one of the most marvelous bonuses that we could have received with the D.D./DTS system. Even if the DVD is not EX encoded, there have been discs that have center back surround imaging that spices up the movie track. A great example is THE MATRIX. Even T-3 had bullets popping over my head. In T-3, there is an explosion near the end of the film where it sounds like things are falling in back of you. Damm great center back surround effect and the first one of its kind that I ever heard. Very 3-deeish in nature for audio reproduction.

[John Beresford]

OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY John; I finally rented and watched T-3. I enjoyed this film. It's a masterpiece compared to MATRIX RELOADED which was dreadful in the movies and on DVD as well. The soundtrack is very balanced and well recorded. Dialog reproduction was nearly perfect. Dynamic Range when applied to certain scenes was superb. The sound quality was very smooth particulaly the bass response. I could have cranked it up, but I was not looking to go deaf anymore than I am. While not and EX film, there was some very good center back surround imaging as well as overall surround imaging out of all speakers. This film stands on its own merits.
I considered it an excellent rental, but I did not find this film to be one that I would repeatedly view specific scenes.

John; your receiver is a 6.1 channel receiver. I gather you do not have that extra channel hooked up probably because there is not enough space to place it behind your seating area which is a problem for many with 6.l. Can one hear the EX phantomly from a 5.1 system? Depends really on the surround speaker placement. Mine are set up like the Dolby website. They are near the top of my ceiling. It is possible for me to hear sounds at any point between the speakers if there is sound to reproduce. In fact it is not unusual to hear sounds hitting me just to the sides of my ears whizzing by. I have other ways to get the phantom mode to play depending on the system. Some receivers have had virtual ex modes not requiring a center rear speaker. Whether their phantom modes worked better then a unit without s specific phantom mode I cannot answer. Some Yamahas had this. I know that the JVC 7030 and 8030 although 6 channel receivers have a virtual mode if you do not have the room for the 6th speaker. Episode 2 is loaded with EX sounds. If you hear sounds between the surround speakers like right above your head, then you are getting the phantom EX effect. This is one of the most marvelous bonuses that we could have received with the D.D./DTS system. Even if the DVD is not EX encoded, there have been discs that have center back surround imaging that spices up the movie track. A great example is THE MATRIX. Even T-3 had bullets popping over my head. In T-3, there is an explosion near the end of the film where it sounds like things are falling in back of you. Damm great center back surround effect and the first one of its kind that I ever heard. Very 3-deeish in nature for audio reproduction.

Very interesting analysis, Kelsci. Thank you, and glad you enjoyed the action in T3; I wouldn't have steered you wrong! That said, with regard to EX "phantoming" images, I am uncertain if my speaker setup is allowing for the desired "ghosting" effect a standard 5.1 setup would provide; it sounds like your surrounds are installed much like in my parents' system in their house in Las Vegas; their surrounds are installed in the ceiling, high up into the cathedral celing slant above the listening space in their den. This was installed by the guy my parents bought the house from. At any rate, my surrounds are directly to the left and right sides of my couch, almost at ear level -- just about at ear level, actually, and although not "ideal positioning" for surrounds, DVD's sound awesome through my system nonetheless. Now, because my rear speakers are set up this way, and slightly turned inward toward the sweet spot on the couch, I wonder if Im actually getting some kind of "phantom" EX effect, or even when I view DVDs in DTS-ES format, which also adds that rear center channel effect. I would need to go back and view some "extended sound" DVDs in my collection such as "Gladiator" (DTS ES), "The Haunting" (DTS ES), "Attack of the Clones" (DD EX), "Exorcist: Version Youve Never Seen Before" (DD EX) and perhaps some others, to analyze if I am getting this ghosted rear center image. Now, with regard to your comment about me not buying the sixth channel even though my amp is 6.1 capable, it wasnt because of the space, primarily (although there really is no space for the speaker in reality; my couch is right up against the wall where the speaker would have to sit; I am not sure if that is too close to listening position)...it was because when I first bought the system, I was being sold on 5.1 only -- EVERYONE told me that 5.1 is what I need, not a speaker more, because there were only a "handful" of titles available with that extended sound anyway, and while cool, I was told, the 6.1 difference wouldnt "blow my dress up"....so I purchashed only a 5.1 setup. With a lot of titles I like in DD EX or DTS ES, though, I am thinking of purchasing a center rear channel...

Which brings me to my next inquiry of you: for folks that have a standard 5.1 speaker array, what is happening when we watch films that have a DTS ES or DD EX soundtrack? Is any information being LOST, per se? I have been told that the information from DTS ES or DD EX signals are already mixed into the surround channels, and then derived from those to be placed into that center rear surround; does this apply to DD EX processing only, or are ALL 6.1 DVDs like this? When I watch DVDs with these six channel soundtracks, what am I "losing" or "hearing" when playing them back on a 5.1 system; is MAJOR information being lost? Is the film simply downmixing to a standard 5.1 soundtrack because I have indicated in the receiver's setup menu that I do not have sixth speaker back there?

[kelsci]

John; my surrounds are externally out on the wall near the ceiling at the back of my master bedroom. Each faces the other straight on. If I had a 6.1 receiver, I feel I have no room for a real rear center back speaker. In fact, If I did hook one up, it could drop on my head. A Minimus 7 speaker is a heavy little mother so if the center back speaker just got loose and fell on my head, the eulogy that I would not want at my funeral because of my stupidity of putting it there in the first place would be: HE WAS DEDICATED TO EX SOUND IN HIS HOME THEATER AND HIS DEATH PROVES THAT.

I find nothing wrong with your surround speakers being at ear level. On my 5 channel Dynaquad living room system, two Minimus 7s are on barstools at ear level since 1987 and has worked out fine.

I am familar with GLADIATOR and ATTACK OF THE CLONES. The good thing about D.D. Matrix EX and DTS-ES Matrix that they work fine on my system phantomly. I have the HAUNTING in D.D. which is good in EX but I understand the DTS version is enormous soundwise and therefore would be quite good with its DTS-ES Matrix version. CLONES is loaded with D.D. Matrix EX sound. In one scene, you should hear a clone ship in the battle fly from the center channel past your left ear.

The positioning of your surround speakers may be reproducing phantom EX-ES track. There are two other positions you can try that would require a minimal adjustment. You can leave the speakers in their current position. What you want to do is face the two rear speakers and make them tilt slightly inward( / \ ) as shown in the parentheses. A piece of cardboard or other material would accomplish this. I will just simply say that what I have shown you will create a phantom center channel. If you do this, be sure to try DPL-2 recordings to hear how they sound in the rear. Regular DPL rear surround will collapse into the phantom center which actually proves my concoction works. The 2nd thing you can try is to have each surround speaker be placed face to face rather than facing the sweet spot. I recommend that you only do this if your surrounds are a two way type with the tweeter above the woofer.

You ask a good question whether major audio info is being lost. I would say that perhaps "extra" info could very well be lost at the very least if your rear speakers are not set up to phantomly reproduce those ES-EX matrix tracks. Since I have never had the opportunity to experiment with a true 6.1 system, what I really cannot say is how much more that extra channel might add over a good working phantom system. I would think that if the ES-EX switch is off on the receiver making the receiver to work in 5.1, the ES-EX matrix sounds will be in the L/R surrounds waiting to be harnessed phantomly. Take the CLONES DVD and turn on the THX audio optimiser. It will give a pink noise test tone of center back D.D. EX surround.

I just finished watching FINDING NEMO fullframe. Besides the drop dead gorgeous picture I was really surprised how loaded the soundtrack was with D.D. EX throughout the movie.

Hope everything works out for you John.

[John Beresford]

John; my surrounds are externally out on the wall near the ceiling at the back of my master bedroom. Each faces the other straight on. If I had a 6.1 receiver, I feel I have no room for a real rear center back speaker. In fact, If I did hook one up, it could drop on my head. A Minimus 7 speaker is a heavy little mother so if the center back speaker just got loose and fell on my head, the eulogy that I would not want at my funeral because of my stupidity of putting it there in the first place would be: HE WAS DEDICATED TO EX SOUND IN HIS HOME THEATER AND HIS DEATH PROVES THAT.

I find nothing wrong with your surround speakers being at ear level. On my 5 channel Dynaquad living room system, two Minimus 7s are on barstools at ear level since 1987 and has worked out fine.

I am familar with GLADIATOR and ATTACK OF THE CLONES. The good thing about D.D. Matrix EX and DTS-ES Matrix that they work fine on my system phantomly. I have the HAUNTING in D.D. which is good in EX but I understand the DTS version is enormous soundwise and therefore would be quite good with its DTS-ES Matrix version. CLONES is loaded with D.D. Matrix EX sound. In one scene, you should hear a clone ship in the battle fly from the center channel past your left ear.

The positioning of your surround speakers may be reproducing phantom EX-ES track. There are two other positions you can try that would require a minimal adjustment. You can leave the speakers in their current position. What you want to do is face the two rear speakers and make them tilt slightly inward( / \ ) as shown in the parentheses. A piece of cardboard or other material would accomplish this. I will just simply say that what I have shown you will create a phantom center channel. If you do this, be sure to try DPL-2 recordings to hear how they sound in the rear. Regular DPL rear surround will collapse into the phantom center which actually proves my concoction works. The 2nd thing you can try is to have each surround speaker be placed face to face rather than facing the sweet spot. I recommend that you only do this if your surrounds are a two way type with the tweeter above the woofer.

You ask a good question whether major audio info is being lost. I would say that perhaps "extra" info could very well be lost at the very least if your rear speakers are not set up to phantomly reproduce those ES-EX matrix tracks. Since I have never had the opportunity to experiment with a true 6.1 system, what I really cannot say is how much more that extra channel might add over a good working phantom system. I would think that if the ES-EX switch is off on the receiver making the receiver to work in 5.1, the ES-EX matrix sounds will be in the L/R surrounds waiting to be harnessed phantomly. Take the CLONES DVD and turn on the THX audio optimiser. It will give a pink noise test tone of center back D.D. EX surround.

I just finished watching FINDING NEMO fullframe. Besides the drop dead gorgeous picture I was really surprised how loaded the soundtrack was with D.D. EX throughout the movie.

Hope everything works out for you John.

What happens when someone has a situation, as I do, where they own a receiver with 6.1 decoding capabilities, such as DTS ES or DD EX (I know, I know...DD EX is not discrete 6.1), but only have a 5.1 speaker system setup, and they play back DTS ES or DD EX DVDs? For instance, when I play, say, "Gladiator" in DTS ES, what am I hearing through my 5.1 setup? Is any information being "lost" because I dont have that sixth rear center speaker, or is the effect being "ghosted" from my standard surrounds? My receiver is set up so that it knows there is no "back surround" channel; I made sure of this in the receiver's setup menu. So when playing DD EX or DTS ES soundtracks, am I hearing any part of that 6.1 channel mix through my 5.1 setup?

[kelsci]

Hi John; Lets first talk about center back surround in D.D. EX and DTS-ES both are in a matrix form. I have heard this sound produced phantomly from my receiver which is only a 5.1 channel Sherwood.. For a time there were some receivers that were 5.1 particulaly from Yamaha that had a setting on the receiver to create a VIRTUAL center back surround channel. I do not know if that is still offered on their current line since they are all 6.1 units. I believe that the current JVC 7030 and 8030 offer a choice of a VIRTUAL surround back setting leaving the receivers to be used in 5.1 mode or a VIRTUAL 6.1 mode. There may also be some Pioneer models that work the same way. I believe however that if you choose the VIRTUAL surround back mode on the Pioneers, the inactive sixth channel may be used to power a passive subwoofer. The Kenwood line like the 6060, 6070, 7070 and 7080(I hope I got the model numbers correct) if I am correct DID NOT include the VIRTUAL surround back option in 5.1 channel mode, but let you choose the use of the sixth channel for D.D. EX, DTS-ES and DTS-ES Descrete or powering a passive subwoofer. Your Onkyo's sixth channel is available to you only if you decide to hook up a active EX-ES sixth channel. Your receiver is set to 5.1 only which is the correct way to use it at this time. Your sixth channel is an option. Onkyo should have gave a choice of a Virtual surround back but did not. As you can see, there is no consistency of optional offerings on the sixth channel.

Your receiver therefore acting in 5.1 mode is working the same as my Sherwood and my brother's Yammi 2095 which are both 5.1 only receivers. I cannot tell you whether you are missing a whole lot of EX-ES MATRIX type sound because I have never played with a receiver that had the sixth channel. Logic tells me that if a channel has a specific designation such as the 6th channel for center back surround reproduction, I would think you would be hearing more rear sound information if it is there. Logic also tells me that my EPITATH should not read, KELSCI DIED IN THE NAME OF EX-ES SOUND LIKE A VIKING WITH A SWORD with the tombstone shaped like a loudspeaker with an etching of a speaker hitting me on the head on the tombstone.

So our receivers have no additive circuitry to reproduce phantom matrix EX-ES sound. That sound however is laying on the two rear surround speakers. And in the case of Gladiator, you potentially have the ability to hear either EX-ES sound because it is on the D.D. and DTS 5..1 soundtrack of that disc. Gladiator also has DTS-ES DESCRETE. For you to hear that track, your receiver would have to be in 6.1 mode and its decoder decoding the ES descrete track. Your set-up indicates the possibility that you would be hearing matrix EX-ES sound with your rear speakers slightly towed in. In one of my paragraphs I reread something that may have not been that clear. I leave those speakers towed inward. I then stand away from the sitting position physically facing my rear surround speakers I would slightly TILT each surround speaker by placing a piece of cardboard or some material on the extreme left and right side of the surround speakers creating that very slight tilt (/--------\). This will create a very distinct phantom center channel and because it does, I would check to see how DPL-2 sounds with this mode. I can tell you DPL-1's rear collapses into the middle actually proving that what I am doing WORKS.The 2nd thing you can try is to have each surround speaker facing each other towards the rear seating area (l-------l). I recommend that you only do this if your surrounds are a two way type with the tweeter above the woofer.
You then determine which effect you like.

I will give you a few references from CLONES. If you hear what I describe at a certain position, your "IN LIKE FLINT".

15:58 falling from sky 41:33-:34 and 63:38-:39 thunder overhead
63:39-40 spaceship overhead 67:51-52 overhead echo throu center of asteroid 97:36-:38light sabre overhead 116:28clone ship flies from center speaker over your head in the rear 122:42blasters all over rear surroundfield 122:52cloneship flies from center speaker overhead in rear center.

GOOD LUCK; KELSCI

[headknocker]

Yup, T3 friggin' rocks! I saw it on its opening weekend in the theatre and I just knew this flick was gonna be awesome on DVD...and it IS!

Everything just jumps out at you and your sub will pound...great stuff. IMO, it was the action movie of the year. I always loved T2( I have the Extreme Edition) but I feel T3 is the best one of the series. I was expecting it to be pretty good but not THIS good.

BTW, there's a nice interview with the film's director in the latest issue of Sound and Vision...he's the same guy who did the sound for U-571(another great one to show off your system).

[John Beresford]

Yup, T3 friggin' rocks! I saw it on its opening weekend in the theatre and I just knew this flick was gonna be awesome on DVD...and it IS!

Everything just jumps out at you and your sub will pound...great stuff. IMO, it was the action movie of the year. I always loved T2( I have the Extreme Edition) but I feel T3 is the best one of the series. I was expecting it to be pretty good but not THIS good.

BTW, there's a nice interview with the film's director in the latest issue of Sound and Vision...he's the same guy who did the sound for U-571(another great one to show off your system).

Agreed. U571 is another one of my favorite DVDs...the DTS sound mix is breathtaking---really. When the depthcharges start going off, your sub will get a workout like never before. To the point that the speakers could get damaged so watch those levels. A GREAT submarine film, U571, up there with Crimson Tide and Hunt For Red October. Probably Universal's best DTS mix.

[joel2762]

Watched that a couple of weeks ago...That movie was awsome and really gave the speakers a workout..One of my favorites for sound is Top Gun. All those jets taking off, all the music, very awsome movie. The dvd lets you choose Dolby 5.1 or Dolby Surround....I recall on both of these movies, I had to turn the bass for my two front speakers down a notch and let the sub handle the bass. My front speakers only have 6" woofers, so all that bass at a high level...They made the weirdest sound i've ever head a speaker make. But they're fine. T-3 was a very good movie...

[John Beresford]

Watched that a couple of weeks ago...That movie was awsome and really gave the speakers a workout..One of my favorites for sound is Top Gun. All those jets taking off, all the music, very awsome movie. The dvd lets you choose Dolby 5.1 or Dolby Surround....I recall on both of these movies, I had to turn the bass for my two front speakers down a notch and let the sub handle the bass. My front speakers only have 6" woofers, so all that bass at a high level...They made the weirdest sound i've ever head a speaker make. But they're fine. T-3 was a very good movie...

Agreed, Joel. I loved T3, and I was not a fan of the Terminators until I watched that in 5.1 surround. Wow. Sound effects knocked my socks off. As I posted, Bad Boys II sounded almost as good in standard DD 5.1 -- knockout surround effects, with bullets ripping and whizzing by in every direction. Quite impressive to say the least. Kick your receiver up to "52" on the volume display (if you have such a volume rating system) and it will immerse you in the gun play and gunfire ripping all around you, with explosions generating deep bass from your sub. The film kinda sucked, but Bad Boys' audio rocked.

As for your comment about turning the bass down in your two front speakers, do you always run your receiver with the speaker settings on "Small" and Subwoofer set to "Yes"? If so, you should never need to change this....thats how I have it running. When running satellite/bookshelf and subwoofer systems, the setting should be left to "Small" so the sub can handle the deeper bass instead of your bookshelf mains.

[joel2762]

No, I don't set them to small because these speakers are fairly big and can produce alot of bass, I think that the volume and bass was just a little too high for this movie with all those explsions....Maybe next time I watch a movie I will try the small setting instead.

[John Beresford]

No, I don't set them to small because these speakers are fairly big and can produce alot of bass, I think that the volume and bass was just a little too high for this movie with all those explsions....Maybe next time I watch a movie I will try the small setting instead.

Well, from what I was told, it doesnt matter the actual size of your main speakers, its whether or not you're running a sub with them that decides whether or not you keep the setting on "Large" or "Small"; if your mains have large bass drivers like some floorstanders do AND you have a sub, I dont really know what setting would be best. I have been told that you should keep speaker settings on SMALL if running bookshelves and a sub like I am, and keep em on LARGE if running full-range towers or floorstanders.