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Hal
06-08-2008, 06:20 AM
Currently, I just have two stereo speakers. I would like to upgrade to a 5.1 system incrementally. So, if I add a center speaker to my setup would I notice a difference in DVD sound?

I have:

NAD T531 DVD/CD player
Yamaha RX-V480

Thanks.

basite
06-08-2008, 07:14 AM
it might, but I'd recommend getting rear speakers first, and using the ghost mode on your receiver...

for a 5.1 system however, you're going to have to get a 5.1 receiver. What you have now is a stereo receiver, with DSP effects, so you can't get a real surround sound now. You get an upmixed stereo sound.

so I'd actually get a new receiver first...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Hal
06-08-2008, 07:17 AM
Thanks. I'll save for the receiver.

johnny p
06-09-2008, 09:30 AM
I disagree..... Almost ALL dialogue comes from the Center Channel.... the Center channel is far more important than the rears or Subwoofer.

This is dependent on you having a 5.1 AVR though


Get a timbre matched Center FIRST, and you'll notice the biggest difference.....


For movies (not music) if I could keep ONLY my Center, or ONLY my L/R fronts... I'd keep the center.

f0rge
06-09-2008, 10:03 AM
but like said above, save for the receiver first, otherwise the center is useless

Feanor
06-09-2008, 10:31 AM
I disagree..... Almost ALL dialogue comes from the Center Channel.... the Center channel is far more important than the rears or Subwoofer.

This is dependent on you having a 5.1 AVR though

Get a timbre matched Center FIRST, and you'll notice the biggest difference.....

For movies (not music) if I could keep ONLY my Center, or ONLY my L/R fronts... I'd keep the center.

True, the center channel carries most of the dialogue and on-screen event sounds -- if you have a center it ought to be a good one and well-matched with the fronts.

But if you don't have a center, you might get by fairly well using the "phantom center" mode on your receiver. Depending on how well your fronts image, you might notice that dialogue tends to come from the front closest to your seating position rather than the screen -- If you sit dead center, you might never notice the lack of a center speaker. I agree with Basite that, given you have neither center nor surrounds, the surrounds are generally more important.

BadAssJazz
06-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Thanks. I'll save for the receiver.

The good news is that you can get a home theater receiver at incredible prices these days. You don't have to go "top of the line", since solid entry level receivers that work well can be had for $400 or less. In fact, if I were just starting out now, and on a tight budget, I'd have no qualms about picking up either one of these units:

Yamaha RX-V363 ~ $200 online (75 wpc X 5)
Yamaha HTR-6030 ~ $200 online (100 wpc X 5)
Pioneer VSX-516 ~ $200 online (100 wpc X 7)
Onkyo TX-SR506 ~ $300 online (75 wpc X 7)
Yamaha RX-V463 ~ $300 online (105 wpc X 5)
Denon AVR-1508 ~ $350 online (75 wpc X 7)


You'll need to research these receivers to see if their features suit your needs, but it's a good starting point. Obviously, if you have a larger budget, then skies the limit.

Now for the bad news. Yes, you do need that center speaker. Yes, it should match your mains. Yes, if you skimp or cut corners on your choice of speakers, it will only lead to buyer's remorse and the inevitable upgrade...much sooner, than later. So take your time to audition speakers (if possible), give yourself a realistic budget, and exercise as much patience as possible putting together a system that sounds good to your ear.

And when you're all done, come back here and tell us what you bought. :2:

Woochifer
06-09-2008, 02:36 PM
I disagree..... Almost ALL dialogue comes from the Center Channel.... the Center channel is far more important than the rears or Subwoofer.

This is dependent on you having a 5.1 AVR though


Get a timbre matched Center FIRST, and you'll notice the biggest difference.....

Nope, I would actually argue that for imparting spatiality and imaging cues (which I would think is the whole reason for investing in a 5.1 setup), the center speaker is the LEAST important speaker.

If you're sitting primarily on-axis, the center speaker is actually not needed at all because any AV receiver will downmix the center channel information into the L/R speakers and create a phantom center effect. The primary reason center channels exist at all is to maintain an imaging continuity and dialog intelligibility across the front soundfield for people watching a movie from an off-axis position.

The main difference between stereo, Pro Logic, and 5.1 is the discrete split surround channels that accompany 5.1 tracks, which require L/R surround speakers to render properly. A virtual surround mode will not create nearly as convincing an envelopment effect without the L/R surround speakers. Plus, many soundtracks aggressively steer the directional cues into both the front and surround speakers simultaneously. By downmixing that surround channel information into the front L/R speakers, you potentially make those directional effects louder than they should be, which has the effect of drowning out the center channel information.


For movies (not music) if I could keep ONLY my Center, or ONLY my L/R fronts... I'd keep the center.

Doesn't make sense to do this. I would suggest that you actually try watching a movie in monophonic, to see if you like that better than two-channel. Like I said, the receiver/processor will downmix the center channel information into the L/R channels. And by collapsing everything into the center channel, you lose any capacity for a virtual surround effect or any kind of imaging cue in the front soundstage.

Woochifer
06-09-2008, 02:44 PM
As others have said, get the 5.1 (or 7.1) receiver first. AV receivers with true discrete 5.1 decoding capability also have virtual surround functions that allow you to enjoy a simulated surround effect from just two speakers. It's a huge step up from the Pro Logic playback you get right now.

Incrementally add your speakers, starting with the surround speakers. It's easy for the L/R front speakers to simulate a center channel effect (after all, the phantom center effect is what two-channel stereo recordings create to begin with), but much harder for those same front speakers to simulate sound coming from behind and to the side of you.

Center channels do matter in the sense that they are a discrete channel and it's best to use a discrete speaker for a discrete channel. But, when you get around to adding a center speaker, be sure that it properly voice matches your L/R front speakers. IMO, having no center speaker is preferable to having a mismatching center speaker.

johnny p
06-12-2008, 10:07 AM
Accessories4less.com has the Marantz SR4001, 5001, 6001, and 7001 DIRT CHEAP new and refurbed (I got a 5001 for the bedroom for $350)

It's only HDMI 1.1 though, so if you buy a Blu-Ray player, it has to decode the audio codecs internally

emesbee
06-13-2008, 06:05 AM
I think the value of having a centre channel speaker will depend on how good your front stero speakers are. If they are good quality speakers, then you could argue that centre channel is unnecessary, as the stereo imaging from the left/right speakers will give the same effect.

I know there are times with my system where I have been under the impression that there is sound coming from the centre channel, only to realise that my system is playing stereo, and the centre channel effect is just an illusion caused by the stereo imaging. In fact, I've even noticed a surround illusion at times too.

pixelthis
06-13-2008, 06:55 PM
I think the value of having a centre channel speaker will depend on how good your front stero speakers are. If they are good quality speakers, then you could argue that centre channel is unnecessary, as the stereo imaging from the left/right speakers will give the same effect.

I know there are times with my system where I have been under the impression that there is sound coming from the centre channel, only to realise that my system is playing stereo, and the centre channel effect is just an illusion caused by the stereo imaging. In fact, I've even noticed a surround illusion at times too.


Sounds like your system is set up wrong.
In a DD system (or dts) the fromt L+R speakers are little more than effects speakers,
just like the rears, etc.
This is hard for audio enthusiasts to get their head around, but up to 70% of the sound from a 5.1 system comes from the center channel.
Which makes sense when you think about it, unlike music most of the sound in a movie is dialog, a decent center pins it on your screen.
My mains cost 550 a pair, my center 318 or so, a center does a complicated job,
and trying to have a system without one is like trying to have a motorcycle without a front wheel:1:

emesbee
06-14-2008, 12:15 AM
I disagree that 70% of the sound comes from the centre channel. In a 5.1 system, the centre channel is mainly used for dialog, but the majority of the sound still comes from the front L/R speakers. But it really depends on how the soundtrack has been mixed. Some 5.1 soundtracks make full use of all channels, while others are little more than stereo with a bit of ambience added to the rears.

I believe my system is set up correctly. Its just that with good stereo imaging, the illusion of sound coming from the centre can be quite convincing.

2325fan
06-14-2008, 05:20 AM
Currently, I just have two stereo speakers. I would like to upgrade to a 5.1 system incrementally. So, if I add a center speaker to my setup would I notice a difference in DVD sound?

I have:

NAD T531 DVD/CD player
Yamaha RX-V480

Thanks.

just my 2 cents here an thats all - it has to do alot with placements of speakers-

if your main speakers are positioned correctly- that when your sitting back an directly between them the sound should all most sound like its coming from the wall between
the speaks- if you have that? then id say the set-up is right on cue

Peter_Klim
06-14-2008, 10:09 AM
Hands down, having 2 fronts will give you MUCH more enjoyment than a single center.

Think about it - would you rather have mono or stereo sound? Plus, chances are that even if you do have timber matching speakers (for the 3 in front), the stereo L/R speakers might have larger woofers to give you deeper bass. You'll also have a wider sound stage with the 2 speakers(which you can adjust by simply changing the distance between the two).

captjamo
06-14-2008, 12:55 PM
:biggrin5: Good thread! Now, my two cents. I think it depends on L/R speakers imaging like previously mentioned by others. And I agree with the comment about placement
I have been wanting to debate the necessity of center channel speakers because I spent a good portion of my HT investment on L/R speakers ( seeking good musicality) and it seems to have payed off in that I don't seem to need a center speaker. I was ready to spend a grand if need be which is the price for the matching speaker. But I have held off so far because the illusion is perfectly placed mouthed dialogue on my system. Here is the thing, perhaps, my speakers are reasonably tall 39", and they are only 7 feet apart. I think that once you get more feet of seperation in the equation then you will indeed want a center speaker for dialogue placement. I like my wide explosions. And I like listening to music in Dolby II Music mode and (might be all wet here) but here goes--If I had a center channel speaker connected it would be sounding and this does interfere with stereo imaging. Lastly, I believe headroom is possibly better. Check out bench test results for AV receivers. Each channel is not entirely discrete i.e. the more channels driven the less watts per channel made available by the receiver's transformer. Am I completely off base here? Jump! (Insert (goofy sense of humor) visual of a football tackle pile on here).:yesnod:

Woochifer
06-14-2008, 05:58 PM
I think the value of having a centre channel speaker will depend on how good your front stero speakers are. If they are good quality speakers, then you could argue that centre channel is unnecessary, as the stereo imaging from the left/right speakers will give the same effect.

I know there are times with my system where I have been under the impression that there is sound coming from the centre channel, only to realise that my system is playing stereo, and the centre channel effect is just an illusion caused by the stereo imaging. In fact, I've even noticed a surround illusion at times too.

Like I said, the value of the center speaker depends on whether you spend all of your viewing from the on-axis position. The whole premise of the center channel in the first place is to assist in dialog intelligibility and anchoring the front soundstage for people who sit slightly off-axis. If all of your movie viewing is done right dead center between the L and R speakers, then the center speaker is less vital.

In a movie theater, most of the patrons are sitting in an off-axis seating position, which is why the center speakers are used there. Watching movies at home is also more of a communal ritual than listening to music, so it's likelier that someone will be sitting off-axis when watching a movie.

Any modern 5.1 receiver has the DSP functionality to create a decent phantom center and virtual surround channel effect from just two speakers, and I would guess that's what you heard from your setup. A default two-channel mixdown (this is what a DVD player typically outputs through the L/R channel outputs) is usually less effective, and any imaging cues will be more random because 5.1 soundtracks are not mixed with two-channel playback in mind. But, the default channel split, which reallocates the center channel information to the L and R channels will still provide more than enough dialog intelligibility and center anchoring if you sit in the on-axis position.

pixelthis
06-14-2008, 07:53 PM
I disagree that 70% of the sound comes from the centre channel. In a 5.1 system, the centre channel is mainly used for dialog, but the majority of the sound still comes from the front L/R speakers. But it really depends on how the soundtrack has been mixed. Some 5.1 soundtracks make full use of all channels, while others are little more than stereo with a bit of ambience added to the rears.

I believe my system is set up correctly. Its just that with good stereo imaging, the illusion of sound coming from the centre can be quite convincing.


What do you mean you "disagree"?
THIS IS A FACT.
Do you disagree about getting old?
Not being able to jump off of a building and fly?
You may disagree with this, you can also disagree with the theory of reletivity,
the second law of thermodynamics, and E= I X R,
you can "disagree" with getting old and dying, doesnt matter a whit.
FACTS are facts :1:

basite
06-15-2008, 01:53 AM
What do you mean you "disagree"?
THIS IS A FACT.
Do you disagree about getting old?
Not being able to jump off of a building and fly?
You may disagree with this, you can also disagree with the theory of reletivity,
the second law of thermodynamics, and E= I X R,
you can "disagree" with getting old and dying, doesnt matter a whit.
FACTS are facts :1:


first of all, 70% is a big statement, especially since all movies are mastered different.

a true statement would be 'most of the dialogue comes from the center'.

and yet again, good main speakers (L & R), and ghost mode on your receiver (or just setting the center channel to 'no', which will cause the receiver to send the center channel information to the main speakers) can and will perform nearly as good as a center, if you sit reasonably on axis.

so 70% is no more than a relative fact. It's a fact, but not having a center doesn't take away 70% of the sound.

emesbee
06-16-2008, 02:13 AM
What do you mean you "disagree"?
THIS IS A FACT.
Do you disagree about getting old?
Not being able to jump off of a building and fly?
You may disagree with this, you can also disagree with the theory of reletivity,
the second law of thermodynamics, and E= I X R,
you can "disagree" with getting old and dying, doesnt matter a whit.
FACTS are facts :1:

Pixelthis, if you are so certain that this is a fact, then please quote a reference to the study that confirms it. I will await your response with interest.

emesbee
06-16-2008, 02:15 AM
first of all, 70% is a big statement, especially since all movies are mastered different.

a true statement would be 'most of the dialogue comes from the center'.

and yet again, good main speakers (L & R), and ghost mode on your receiver (or just setting the center channel to 'no', which will cause the receiver to send the center channel information to the main speakers) can and will perform nearly as good as a center, if you sit reasonably on axis.

so 70% is no more than a relative fact. It's a fact, but not having a center doesn't take away 70% of the sound.

That's more or less what I'm trying to say, basite.

bfalls
06-16-2008, 05:40 AM
As stated earlier, a 5.1 receiver should be your primary purchase. Then buy a pair of surrounds. Listen with mains, ghost center and surrounds. Then disconnect the surrounds move one to the center and decide for yourself which configuration sounds best to you.

Woochifer
06-16-2008, 12:31 PM
What do you mean you "disagree"?
THIS IS A FACT.
Do you disagree about getting old?
Not being able to jump off of a building and fly?
You may disagree with this, you can also disagree with the theory of reletivity,
the second law of thermodynamics, and E= I X R,
you can "disagree" with getting old and dying, doesnt matter a whit.
FACTS are facts :1:

:out:

RoadRunner6
06-16-2008, 04:04 PM
My wife, Noriko, has a 5.1 system hooked up to her computer. I think it is very exciting. I absolutely love her center channel. I'm also very fond of her left and right. However, I'm not really into her rear surrounds.

Oh, I forgot to mention, her center channel is horizontally oriented. Oh yeah, one other thing, her sub is one of those push pull designs.

RR6 :devil:

captjamo
06-16-2008, 10:04 PM
Get a Viagra script then. This will upgrade your system from 5.1 to 6.1 she will like that.

pixelthis
06-16-2008, 11:10 PM
first of all, 70% is a big statement, especially since all movies are mastered different.

a true statement would be 'most of the dialogue comes from the center'.

and yet again, good main speakers (L & R), and ghost mode on your receiver (or just setting the center channel to 'no', which will cause the receiver to send the center channel information to the main speakers) can and will perform nearly as good as a center, if you sit reasonably on axis.

so 70% is no more than a relative fact. It's a fact, but not having a center doesn't take away 70% of the sound.

NO its spread out over other speakers. Mainly a phantom center is created with the front left and right.
AND 70% is NOT a "relative" fact, its a FACT period, as a matter of fact that is a low figure, sometimes its as much as eighty percent.
Beleive it or not, its true, I havent read it in one place, but SEVERAL places, it was the case when pro-logic was popular and its the case now.
AND a "phantom" is but a "ghost" of a REAL center, its nothing compared to a real center channel.
One of those bose systems with three speakers, they create phantom REARS
and are routinely booed by those in the know.
AND THEY ARE NOT NEARLY AS IMPORTANT AS A GOOD CENTER.
Why people think they can have a decent system with the main speaker missing is beyond me.:1:

pixelthis
06-16-2008, 11:11 PM
AND THAT was my 2001 post.
Wheres the big black slab and the homicidal computer?:1:

Woochifer
06-17-2008, 09:30 AM
Beleive it or not, its true, I havent read it in one place, but SEVERAL places, it was the case when pro-logic was popular and its the case now.

http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg


AND THEY ARE NOT NEARLY AS IMPORTANT AS A GOOD CENTER.
Why people think they can have a decent system with the main speaker missing is beyond me.:1:

http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg

f0rge
06-17-2008, 10:16 AM
Pixx,

when i originally bought my speakers i couldn't afford a center, so i set my old yammer in phantom mode.

guess what?

it worked really well.

maybe not as well an actual center channel speaker, but i wasn't missing anything that made watching movies any less enjoyable.

pixelthis
06-17-2008, 10:36 PM
Pixx,

when i originally bought my speakers i couldn't afford a center, so i set my old yammer in phantom mode.

guess what?

it worked really well.

maybe not as well an actual center channel speaker, but i wasn't missing anything that made watching movies any less enjoyable.


Well, good for you, but it still wont be as good as a center.
A "phantom center" should be a temporary arangement at best.
I wasted a lot of good viewing time with cheap centers and "phantom" mode, refusing to beleive everything I read about the importance of a decent center.
Now I spend as much as I can on one.
Which aint much, but a good center is the "center" of any decent HT:1:

pixelthis
06-17-2008, 10:39 PM
http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg



http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg


FINALLY, YOU post something you know about(a big pile of BS, in other words):1:

pixelthis
06-17-2008, 10:45 PM
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/installations/2813/71-speaker-basics.html

these guys say its 60% or more
Close enough.
I can pull up links all day long saying the same, if you'd like:1:

pixelthis
06-17-2008, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=Woochifer]http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg



http://images.cafepress.com/product/167216164v8_240x240_Front_Color-Mahogany.jpg

emesbee
06-18-2008, 05:03 AM
This is getting hilarious! Now, come on guys. 60%, 70%, who cares!

f0rge
06-18-2008, 06:27 AM
at some point they can become overkill though...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/1427454147_31138913a9_b.jpg

Woochifer
06-18-2008, 07:17 AM
FINALLY, YOU post something you know about(a big pile of BS, in other words):1:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lame%20out


http://forums.audioreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3707&stc=1&d=1213771962

:out:

pixelthis
06-18-2008, 11:33 PM
at some point they can become overkill though...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/1427454147_31138913a9_b.jpg



HEY
the guy is just following an "upgrade" path:1:

pixelthis
06-18-2008, 11:37 PM
This is getting hilarious! Now, come on guys. 60%, 70%, who cares!


I have to agree with you on that one.
BUT that is not the point.
The point is that a center is very important for decent HT.
Now, if you love music and HT is secondary fine, get by on a "phantom" center,
you will probably live in happiness.
But if you profess to hardcore HT you NEED a center.
BAD.
real BAD:1:

Rock789
07-02-2008, 09:07 AM
first I need to point something out... a fact is something which can be proven true or false...
the sky is neon green is a fact ... it can be proven true or false...

second item... in my experience with many systems... I (not saying everyone) can hear a very large improvement when a center channel is installed for dd, dts, audio-dvd, and multichannel sacd playback...
I have noticed this in various price ranges between sub $500 systems to $15,000 systems...

what I notice and what you notice may not be the same... for me, the center channel is most important for movies and equally important to the other speakers for multichannel music playback...

hope this helps,
Mike

pixelthis
07-02-2008, 10:54 PM
first I need to point something out... a fact is something which can be proven true or false...
the sky is neon green is a fact ... it can be proven true or false...

second item... in my experience with many systems... I (not saying everyone) can hear a very large improvement when a center channel is installed for dd, dts, audio-dvd, and multichannel sacd playback...
I have noticed this in various price ranges between sub $500 systems to $15,000 systems...

what I notice and what you notice may not be the same... for me, the center channel is most important for movies and equally important to the other speakers for multichannel music playback...

hope this helps,
Mike

It helps me since it supports my point.
Sorry if I seem so fanatic about this, I am usually so laid back.
But being from audio, I DISCOUNTED A CENTER for a long time.
When I FINALLY put in a decent one, not a plastic thingie from an old boombox, etc,
the improvement in my system increased a great deal.
Time spent listening to crap( name any BOSE HT system) is time you dont get back,
basically.
also a "fact" is something that is correct, something that can be proven wrong (like most of what sir talky says) is called a "misstatement" of fact
:1: