Let's talk about gas.

[natronforever]

Hey everybody,

I just have a couple of things to say - maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. Just thoughts. I don't know about you, but I can't stand paying for gas these days. I'm a medical student, living off loans. Now, I'm pretty sure I'll be trading in my Tacoma for a Civic (tear, sob). No more off roading for me for a while, I guess. Anyway, I keep hearing all this stuff about how we're in an "energy crisis" and how the oil companies are "gouging" us. Also, I keep hearing how we're using up all our natural resources.

First of all - what the heck is crude oil good for anyway, aside from energy production? Yeah, I know other products are made from it, but to a much lesser degree than fuel. I mean, so what if we run out. How long will that take anyway? 50 years? 100 years? We're not anywhere close to being in short supply, so why not use it until alternative technologies have proven themselves to be truly viable replacements, speaking both of performance and cost. People still have boats to pull, people to seat, and equipment to haul. Those sissy little "eco friendly" getups aren't going to work for many people.

Regarding price "gouging", I'm not sure it's really the fault of the oil companies. Yes, they are having record profits, but they're still operating on roughly a 10% profit margin. McDonalds does better than that, as do many other companies, large and small. You don't see Congress interrogating Ronald McDonald multiple times, do you? Besides, the federal and state governments make substantially more per dollar of gasoline than do the oil companies. I found the following "breakdown". It's from March, 2008.

$3.77 = 1 Gallon of Gas (National Average)
----------------------------------------------------
$2.72 = Crude Oil
$0.45 = Taxes
$0.30 = Refining
$0.27 = Distribution & Marketing
$0.03 = Retail Markup

If anybody is gouging us, it's the Saudis first, then our own government. Additionally, the oil companies distributed the majority of their profits among the share holders. That equates to putting tens of billions of dollars back into the economy. I'm OK with that, especially today.

What we need to do is use the oil we already have in abundance in our own country. In fact, that should have begun over a decade ago. Let's drill the stuff, refine it, and use it. Again, until something truly better comes along (hasn't happened yet), I see no reason to stop using it. By the time we run out, should that day ever come, we'll undoubtedly have any number of alternatives to meet our needs. Heck, my dad told me that when he was younger, 12 mpg was fantastic. Now, we consider that a "gas guzzler". Today's cars provide huge gains in performance and economy. Heck, the new Corvette achieves 28 mpg at highway speeds. Not bad. Think what another 40 years will bring.

Anyway, this is just me, rambling. Feel free to add your comments below - for or against.

[Feanor]

Hi, NFE,

The Saudis could alleviate the current oil crunch by upping production by 20% or some such figure. But what's in it for them? Their making plenty of money right now and they'd like to conserve some of the potential revenue for future years.

50 or 100 years to run out of oil? Much sooner than that if we're talking about gas at under $5 per gallon in the U.S, regardless of what the Saudis do. Or $10/gal for that matter.

The problem -- and it's much more than a oil shortage problem -- is exponentially increasing demand in China and India, (the most populous countries in the world). The U.S. isn't to sole villain any more.

[basite]

we should save it.

the longer you're going to use fuel without bothering for new clean technologies, the longer it will take for those new, clean alternatives to break through, and the more you'll be paying in the meanwhile.

there's your reason...

besides, oil is used for ALOT more than energy production and fuel. Roughly only 10% of the total available oil is used for fuel, all the rest is used for other products...

even all your roads are made out of oil.


and hopefully, in 40 years we'll all be driving eco friendly cars...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

When John McCain gets elected everything will work out.

Yes, it's just that simple.

[natronforever]

besides, oil is used for ALOT more than energy production and fuel. Roughly only 10% of the total available oil is used for fuel, all the rest is used for other products...

Basite. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but according to the EIA, you're almost completely inverted. The vast majority of crude oil is used for fuels. Check the website out. http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/crudeoil_faqs.asp

Feanor, I agree that China and India pose unique problems regarding supply. That's why I think we should drill more of our own oil. I'm all for alternative energy sources, but right now they're just too expensive, and often provide little bang for the buck. A Prius gets great mileage, but it would take several years to make up the difference between merely buying a Corolla. Plus, it provides a less satisfying driving experience. I think the day will come, hopefully soon, that we'll have good, possibly renewable alternatives, and not just for cars.

[Feanor]

When John McCain gets elected everything will work out.

Yes, it's just that simple.

Muhahahahaha
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rich-n-Texas]

You can thank me later Feanor for brightening up your day. :biggrin5:

[natronforever]

Who's John McCain?

[GMichael]

Why don't I feel any better?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who's John McCain?
What country do you live in?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Why don't I feel any better?
Is your name Feanor? :rolleyes:

[GMichael]

Who's John McCain?

I bet you know who Britney Spears is.

[natronforever]

Oh, wait. Isn't he that guy I may be voting for?

[GMichael]

Is your name Feanor? :rolleyes:

No, but I'd be happy to change it if you think it will help.

[natronforever]

I bet you know who Britney Spears is.

I think the only person who doesn't know who Britney Spears is, is Britney Spears.

[ForeverAutumn]

Listening to Britney Spears gives me gas.


(oh come on, you knew someone was going to say it!)

[ForeverAutumn]

We need more affordable alternatives. I just bought a new Ford Escape. I looked into a hybrid version, but based on the calculations that my sales guy did, I would have to drive it for at least 7 years to break even on the gas savings vs. the additional $5,000 cost of the vehicle. I've never owned a car for that long. Since I was only taking a three year lease, it made no sense to get a hybrid.

It only cost $1,100 to go from the 2.3L to 3.0L engine. But $6,000 more go from the 2.3L to the Hybrid. If we're going to be pressured to move to more eco-friendly vehicles, these prices need to be reversed. A Hybrid Escape might be good for the environment, but gas is going to have increase a whole lot more in price before it becomes an economical alternative.

There has to be something in it for me in the short-term.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Forgive me if I derailed your topic natronforever. In my opinion, one reason why gas prices jump the way they do is because of these Futures speculators who say things like... "recent threats against Nigeria will likely cause prices to increase." I mean, who ARE these people and why does the market react negatively every time this babble surfaces? It's a joke.

[Feanor]

We need more affordable alternatives. I just bought a new Ford Escape. I looked into a hybrid version, but based on the calculations that my sales guy did, I would have to drive it for at least 7 years to break even on the gas savings vs. the additional $5,000 cost of the vehicle. I've never owned a car for that long. Since I was only taking a three year lease, it made no sense to get a hybrid.

It only cost $1,100 to go from the 2.3L to 3.0L engine. But $6,000 more go from the 2.3L to the Hybrid. If we're going to be pressured to move to more eco-friendly vehicles, these prices need to be reversed. A Hybrid Escape might be good for the environment, but gas is going to have increase a whole lot more in price before it becomes an economical alternative.

There has to be something in it for me in the short-term.

Since I keep my cars 'till they disintegrate, hybrid might work for me, but I have to agree that the price differential is outrageous. Obviously the auto companies are at the sucker-skimming stage of the marketing cycle where hybrid/high-efficiency cars are concerned. ("We'll make those tree-huggers can pay the nose".)

Complicating things for us Canadians is the US vs. Canada price differential issue. I noticed in Consumer Reports that Toyota Prius price range in the US is (as I recall) $21-24k. When I checked out Toyota.ca, the price was $32k.

[Feanor]

Forgive me if I derailed your topic natronforever. In my opinion, one reason why gas prices jump the way they do is because of these Futures speculators who say things like... "recent threats against Nigeria will likely cause prices to increase." I mean, who ARE these people and why does the market react negatively every time this babble surfaces? It's a joke.

Speculators are a big factor in the current market as I understand. That's true for other commodities too of course.

But I'm sure John McCain will get it all straightened away in his first six months in office.
:lol: :nonod:

[natronforever]

Forgive me if I derailed your topic natronforever.

Thanks, Rich, but nothing to forgive. I mean, this is the "Off Topic" section of the forum. Also, you bring up a good point. Gas prices grow every time there's some sort of "speculation" of catastrophe, but when it turns out to be nothing, we don't get a refund.

Also, I agree with ForeverAutunn. The only thing keeping us from mainstream acceptance of alternative technologies is the consumer's bottom line.

[Rich-n-Texas]

But I'm sure John McCain will get it all straightened away in his first six months in office.

Well, Dick Cheney won't be around anymore so...

[bobsticks]

First of all - what the heck is crude oil good for anyway, aside from energy production? Yeah, I know other products are made from it, but to a much lesser degree than fuel. I mean, so what if we run out.

Well for one thing alot of pesticides are made from petroleum phosphates, so there's the potential for famine. Let's not forget plastics and food storage. Frankly I think that the replacement of these everyday items is a more daunting proposition than replacing the very necessary means of transportation...we're pretty good at figuring out the necessities when our backs are to the wall.

[bobsticks]

Well, Dick Cheney won't be around anymore so...


I know that you got a job Ms. Cheney
but your husband's heart problem's complicating.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here ya go...


In Washington, meanwhile, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission revealed that it is six months into a wide-ranging investigation of U.S. oil markets, with a focus on possible price manipulation. The CFTC also announced a handful of initiatives designed to increase transparency of the energy futures markets.
Disclosure of the investigation may have contributed to oil's declines, analysts said.
This was taken from an article about oil prices in general, and there are other factors invloved, but it once again shows how too much power in the hands of too many greedy MF'ers can cause hardships in EVERYONE's lives. Don't know if this is true but I was told these Oil Futures speculators are hired by the oil companies.

But yeah Mr. John Q. Public, just keep letting yourself be led around like sheep being herded by a pack of wolves. This crap makes me very angry. :mad5:

[Feanor]

Here ya go...


This was taken from an article about oil prices in general, and there are other factors invloved, but it once again shows how too much power in the hands of too many greedy MF'ers can cause hardships in EVERYONE's lives. Don't know if this is true but I was told these Oil Futures speculators are hired by the oil companies.

But yeah Mr. John Q. Public, just keep letting yourself be led around like sheep being herded by a pack of wolves. This crap makes me very angry. :mad5:

You're a Republican, Rich? To quote Andre the Giant in Princess Bride, "I don't thing that word means what you think it means".

[Rich-n-Texas]

And Osama Obama is going to make any difference? This has little to do with politics, and MUCH to do with corporate greed.

[natronforever]

Oh, I don't doubt the oil companies are laughing all the way to the bank, but their profit margins still aren't abnormal or outrageous when you look at pure percentages of profit. I just think it's hypocritical of the federal government to repeatedly interrogate the oil executives, when the government (federal + state) earns more money per gallon of gasoline sold than the oil companies.

[Feanor]

And Osama Obama is going to make any difference? This has little to do with politics, and MUCH to do with corporate greed.

Greed, corporate and otherwise, is here to stay. But are you suggesting the laws and government policy can do nothing to curb it?

Without a dedious digression on the faults of Obama, Clinton, and the Democratic Party, which U.S. party do you think is more in the pocket of corporate interests? As an "impartial" observer in a foreign country, I've made up my mind.

[basite]

And Osama Obama is going to make any difference? This has little to do with politics, and MUCH to do with corporate greed.


so John Mcain is going to make a difference? :frown2:

while he'll be better than bush (which is not that hard, considering he's a first class moron), he still bears the republican mind that says 'everything for the rich'...

that's also the opinion of an "impartial" observer from an even more foreign country.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Greed, corporate and otherwise, is here to stay. But are you suggesting the laws and government policy can do nothing to curb it?
Depends on what your definition of "curb" is. I suggest you're trying to lessen the impact of the fact that the government can do nothing to "stop" it. Which they can't.


Without a dedious digression on the faults of Obama, Clinton, and the Democratic Party, which U.S. party do you think is more in the pocket of corporate interests?
You think democrats aren't in the corporation's back pockets too? Is that what your liberal press in Canada, which is obviously where you form your opinions about US policy, tells you? You assume way too much Bill.

Wait a minute. Why "Without dedious digression on the faults of Obama, Clinton, and the Democratic Party..."? What are you trying to cover up? Is it the fact that both Clinton's are slimey underhanded liars? They're both liars, right? Even OUR liberal media has pointed that out. Hillary's even trying to lie her way into the presidency. They're as much a product of corporate greed as the chairman of ExxonMobil. Please.

As an "impartial" observer in a foreign country, I've made up my mind.
Great! Too bad you can't come down here and vote in the election, huh?

[Rich-n-Texas]

When John McCain gets elected everything will work out.

Yes, it's just that simple.


so John Mcain is going to make a difference? :frown2:
My comment was made with tongue-in-cheek Bert. Nevertheless, it had the desired effect. :ihih:

[Luvin Da Blues]

Gotta love arm chair politics.:lol:

[Feanor]

Depends on what your definition of "curb" is. I suggest you're trying to lessen the impact of the fact that the government can do nothing to "stop" it. Which they can't.
...
True enough. :(


...
You think democrats aren't in the corporation's back pockets too? Is that what your liberal press in Canada, which is obviously where you form your opinions about US policy, tells you? You assume way too much Bill.
...
Not at all: I don't get my opinions for the liberal press in Canada -- which isn't all that liberal in any case, (or Liberal, either). This is the Internet age: all U.S. media are accessible to us here.

But yes, doubtless the Democrates are quite beholden to corporations as well, just a little less so. The fact is the U.S. has no party that can be said to represent the people. We in Canada have one or two, albeit they are a long way from power for the usual reason: the wealthy and corporations know create red herrings that district most of us from our real interests. Red herrings today include the likes of right-to-life, gay marriage, national security, "the American way", and the always trusty appeal to religious piety.


...
Wait a minute. Why "Without dedious digression on the faults of Obama, Clinton, and the Democratic Party..."? What are you trying to cover up? Is it the fact that both Clinton's are slimey underhanded liars? They're both liars, right? Even OUR liberal media has pointed that out. Hillary's even trying to lie her way into the presidency. They're as much a product of corporate greed as the chairman of ExxonMobil. Please.
...
(Yawn :Yawn: , this blabber is exactly why I hoped to avoid the digression.) If you're looking for perfect forthright politicians you'll search in vain. But I'd rather have a politico that utters the odd white lie than a G.W.Bush who is both an idiot and a monumental liar.


...
Great! Too bad you can't come down here and vote in the election, huh?
Too bad indeed. When you consider how much harm a U.S. president can do to the rest of the world, it's a pity all of us don't get to vote.

[ForeverAutumn]

Too bad indeed. When you consider how much harm a U.S. president can do to the rest of the world, it's a pity all of us don't get to vote.

Comment of the Month. :thumbsup:

[basite]

Comment of the Month. :thumbsup:


seconded...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh Gawd. "the odd white lie". Hillary tried to create an image that would generate sympathy towards her cause with the bit about getting fired on by snipers while landing in Bosnia. Say whatever you need to in order to get elected right? You downplay anything a democrat (notice the lower case d) says or does and then throw George Bush into the fire because of your perception that he's a liar. Odd white lie my ass Bill.

When you consider how much harm a U.S. president can do to the rest of the world, it's a pity all of us don't get to vote.
And how hard he tries to bring countries ruled by tyrants and dictators into a democracy where they don't get put to death if they look at the leaders crosseyed... in other words a crusader for human rights, and when he has helicopters loaded with supplies waiting to help save the lives of human victims ravaged by natural disasters, and how he promised to bring the murderers of innocents of ALL races creeds and colors to justice for using airplanes loaded with people as missles, and so on and so on and so on. "It's lonely at the top". Ever heard that one Bill?

You're like my neice, she only hears what she wants to hear. :rolleyes:

[basite]

And how hard he tries to bring countries ruled by tyrants and dictators into a democracy where they don't get put to death if they look at the leaders crosseyed... in other words a crusader for human rights, and when he has helicopters loaded with supplies waiting to help save the lives of human victims ravaged by natural disasters, and how he promised to bring the murderers of innocents of ALL races creeds and colors to justice for using airplanes loaded with people as missles, and so on and so on and so on. "It's lonely at the top". Ever heard that one Bill?

You're like my neice, she only hears what she wants to hear. :rolleyes:


if it wasn't for the oil, he'd stay out of there.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Out of where Bert? Iraq? How much oil does Iraq supply the US with?

[natronforever]

You're a Republican, Rich? To quote Andre the Giant in Princess Bride, "I don't thing that word means what you think it means".

I may be mistaken, as I haven't seen the flick for a while, but wasn't that Inigo Montoya who said that?

[ForeverAutumn]

Please hand this man a soap box.

Crusader for human rights Rich? Sure, as long as those rights don't belong to gays who want to marry or women who want to have abortions. As long as those rights don't infringe on his delicate personal and religious beliefs.

Helicopters loaded with supplies waiting to help save the lives of human victims ravaged by natural disasters? Tell that to someone from New Orleans and see what they have to say.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the downfall of dictorship governments and I support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. But don't try to tell me that Bush is doing it in the name of Human Rights. Puleeese! What's he done for the people in Darfur?

[basite]

Out of where Bert? Iraq? How much oil does Iraq supply the US with?

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm

I quote this from the above mentioned site:

"While its proven oil reserves of 112 billion barrels ranks Iraq second in the work behind Saudi Arabia, EIA estimates that up to 90-percent of the county remains unexplored due to years of wars and sanctions. Unexplored regions of Iraq could yield an additional 100 billion barrels. Iraq's oil production costs are among the lowest in the world."

and in december 2002, the USA imported 11.3 million barrels of oil from Iraq. While that may not be as much as from other countries, like Saudi Arabia, it would be a great oppertunity for Bush to take over the entire Iraqi oil production...

and why would Bush care about some Iraqi's shooting eachother, if he doesn't really care about the black people in the USA? remember Katrina? remember how long it took before he sent enough help?


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[natronforever]

and why would Bush care about some Iraqi's shooting eachother, if he doesn't really care about the black people in the USA? remember Katrina? remember how long it took before he sent enough help?

It's easy to point fingers in hindsight. Truth is, there's not a single country that's given more than ours, both worldwide and domestic. Of course, it could be argued that the US is in the best position to aid, but my point stands regardless. The breaking of the levies in New Orleans was a bona fide tragedy. In fact, it should never have happened in the first place, but that's a whole other story. But to say Bush doesn't care about black people is kind of a stretch. When the Teton Dam broke in Eastern Idaho, an entire valley was wiped out - homes, farms, everything. Livelihoods were destroyed. And where were the helicopters? The federal assistance? I tell you they were nowhere to be found. And - gasp - it was a white community. So now we can say that the administration in that day was prejudiced against white people? Bad things happen. It's sad, and will always be sad. Good people will always try to help, thank goodness. But I don't think we should always look to the government for salvation every time tragedy strikes - not when we have hands and feet, friends and neighbors. What did they do in Idaho? They, the people, banded together, helped each other out, and rebuilt. I can handle sadness, but it's the bitterness and blame that bothers me.

[Feanor]

... But to say Bush doesn't care about black people is kind of a stretch. ...

It isn't blacks per se that Bush doesn't care about, it's poor and working class people. It just so happens that American blacks have more than their fair share in this category.

Republicans propound the American mystique, to wit, American is the land of opportunity where anyone can achieve wealth and success. If you don't achieve wealth and success then ipso facto you are a lazy, shiftless loser who deserves no consideration.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Please hand this man a soap box.

Crusader for human rights Rich? Sure, as long as those rights don't belong to gays who want to marry or women who want to have abortions. As long as those rights don't infringe on his delicate personal and religious beliefs.
Typical. So, by diverting attention away from what I was talking about... Human Rights, to gay rights, you agree that the US and its present administration do more to advance Human Rights throughout the world than any other country. That's good. You're making progress.

I can think of two states where gays can legally marry. California and Mass. There are probably more but that is of no relevance to me. Abortions? That issue pre-dates the current administration by years and years. It's also a completely separate issue which doesn't belong in this thread. Nice try though. :rolleyes:


Helicopters loaded with supplies waiting to help save the lives of human victims ravaged by natural disasters? Tell that to someone from New Orleans and see what they have to say.
Yes. Military helicopters loaded with supplies for victims of natural disasters. Weren't allowed to drop them at the most critical time because of some dumbass dictator who was afraid they'd try to occupy his land. Your type is soooo typical. If you can't find fault in one scenario, look somewhere else, but in the meantime offer no solution or acknowledgement of what good has been done. This mindset is simply boring.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the downfall of dictorship governments and I support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. But don't try to tell me that Bush is doing it in the name of Human Rights. Puleeese! What's he done for the people in Darfur?
Oh I don't get you wrong Ms. Elitist Liberal. And I didn't say he was in Iraq for Human Rights reasons. Everybody knows we're there to promote Democracy, which will give the Iraqis freedom from the evil dictators that once ruled there.

Darfur? Gee I don't know. What has Canada done for Darfur? But if you want, I can set aside some time to research what he's done for millions of other people around the world. :Yawn:

[Rich-n-Texas]

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm

I quote this from the above mentioned site:

"While its proven oil reserves of 112 billion barrels ranks Iraq second in the work behind Saudi Arabia, EIA estimates that up to 90-percent of the county remains unexplored due to years of wars and sanctions. Unexplored regions of Iraq could yield an additional 100 billion barrels. Iraq's oil production costs are among the lowest in the world."

and in december 2002, the USA imported 11.3 million barrels of oil from Iraq. While that may not be as much as from other countries, like Saudi Arabia, it would be a great oppertunity for Bush to take over the entire Iraqi oil production...
Speculation Bert. I see nothing in that article that indicates that the US WOULD go into Iraq or any other country to get their oil.


and why would Bush care about some Iraqi's shooting eachother, if he doesn't really care about the black people in the USA? remember Katrina? remember how long it took before he sent enough help?
More liberal grandstanding. Sure Bert, I remember Katrina. I also remember reading in the liberal media about how much ineptitude there was at the Mayor of NO's position, at the Governor's position, and at FEMA. So you think the president "doesn't really care about blacks" huh? What in God's name are they teaching in college over there? :nonod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

It isn't blacks per se that Bush doesn't care about, it's poor and working class people. It just so happens that American blacks have more than their fair share in this category.
More ignorance.


Republicans propound the American mystique, to wit, American is the land of opportunity where anyone can achieve wealth and success. If you don't achieve wealth and success then ipso facto you are a lazy, shiftless loser who deserves no consideration.
Wow! That's some really fancy footwork there Bill. "to wit"? "ipso facto"? But through all that mumbo jumbo it looks to me like you're either calling all Conservatives racists, or all Americans racists. Am I reading you right?

[ForeverAutumn]

Typical. So, by diverting attention away from what I was talking about... Human Rights, to gay rights...

I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. Human rights are human rights are human rights. Humans have the right to be treated equally regardless of gender, colour, beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. Two whole states huh? Wow, that's really revolutionary. Make it part of the US Constitution and we'll talk.

I will stay away from the Abortion issue...too emotionally charged without a clear scientific definition of at what stage two cells become a human.


...you agree that the US and its present administration do more to advance Human Rights throughout the world than any other country. That's good. You're making progress.

Huh? Where did I say that????


Oh I don't get you wrong Ms. Elitist Liberal.

That statement only proves that you get me completely wrong. I have voted Conservative in every election since I was old enough to vote...and I most likely always will.

Why must you always resort to calling me names whenever I disagree with you?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. Human rights are human rights are human rights. Humans have the right to be treated equally regardless of gender, colour, beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. Two whole states huh? Wow, that's really revolutionary. Make it part of the US Constitution and we'll talk.
Not "revolutionary"... PROGRESS. And besides, Gay Rights are just as emotionally charged an issue as abortion is, neither of which have anything to do with the price of gas. But I think I speak for all Americans when I say that President Bush is not the villian here, but the man on the street who either through ignorance or religous belief, or both, makes this sitation what it is today. Aren't there other countries or societies where being gay is criminal?

Huh? Where did I say that????
That's exactly my point. By totally ignoring my statement and then finding fault somewhere else you leave the notion that you're agreeing with me on the table. I point out something good, you move on to something bad. That's what Democrats here do when they're trying to get attention (to their many pork barrel projects).

That statement only proves that you get me completely wrong. I have voted Conservative in every election since I was old enough to vote...and I most likely always will.
Well, that's not for me to contest since I'm not in the booth with you, but I'd say there are myriad opinions between American society and Canadian society with regard to the definition of "Conservative", don't you think?

Why must you always resort to calling me names whenever I disagree with you?
I'm trying to find a "pet" name for you, but your constant Bush bashing makes it difficult.

[audio amateur]

Rich boy is holding his own pretty well here:thumbsup:

[ForeverAutumn]

Not "revolutionary"... PROGRESS. And besides, Gay Rights are just as emotionally charged an issue as abortion is, neither of which have anything to do with the price of gas. But I think I speak for all Americans when I say that President Bush is not the villian here, but the man on the street who either through ignorance or religous belief, or both, makes this sitation what it is today. Aren't there other countries or societies where being gay is criminal?

I'm obviously not very good at reading between the lines that you write Rich. Yes, two states is definately progress. But I still hold that this is a part of the human rights argument and if you are not on side with equality among ALL men (and I use "men" in the generic non-gender term), then you are not a proponent of human rights. A proponent of selective human rights perhaps.


That's exactly my point. By totally ignoring my statement and then finding fault somewhere else you leave the notion that you're agreeing with me on the table. I point out something good, you move on to something bad. That's what Democrats here do when they're trying to get attention (to their many pork barrel projects).

No, you have made an assumption and put words in my mouth.

I do think that the US has done a lot to advance human rights throughout the world. Spreading Democracy is a beautiful thing. I don't know enough about the topic and what other countries have done, however, to say that they have done more than anyone else.


Well, that's not for me to contest since I'm not in the booth with you, but I'd say there are myriad opinions between American society and Canadian society with regard to the definition of "Conservative", don't you think?

Not as myriad as you would expect with our current Conservative leader. But in general, yes, we actually agree on something.


I'm trying to find a "pet" name for you, but your constant Bush bashing makes it difficult.

I wasn't aware of my constant Bush bashing. When have we discussed Bush in the past? Stop putting words in my mouth.

And, no need for you to come up with a "pet" name for me. Some rights are earned...and you haven't earned that one.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm obviously not very good at reading between the lines that you write Rich. Yes, two states is definately progress. But I still hold that this is a part of the human rights argument and if you are not on side with equality among ALL men (and I use "men" in the generic non-gender term), then you are not a proponent of human rights. A proponent of selective human rights perhaps.
This is your opinion FA. Again, not everyone or every society shares that view. Certainly not just George Bush and "his delicate personal and religious beliefs".
Are all Canadians so quick to lump people into specific categories?

No, you have made an assumption and put words in my mouth.
You were okay with the "assumptions" part, but I did NOT put words in your mouth. All I did was associate that type of thought process with what the majority of Democrats here do when they don't want to acknowledge the good the current admin has done.

I do think that the US has done a lot to advance human rights throughout the world. Spreading Democracy is a beautiful thing. I don't know enough about the topic and what other countries have done, however, to say that they have done more than anyone else.
Say no more.

Not as myriad as you would expect with our current Conservative leader. But in general, yes, we actually agree on something.
I guess Feanor didn't get out the vote did he? :rolleyes:

I wasn't aware of my constant Bush bashing. When have we discussed Bush in the past? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Couldn't find any threads, but I am at work so time doesn't allow. It's usually after Feanor has changed a topic from anything to "Bush is an idiot" where I've seen you jump on the bandwagon though.


And, no need for you to come up with a "pet" name for me. Some rights are earned...and you haven't earned that one.
Who do I have to pay off? :biggrin5:

[ForeverAutumn]

Who do I have to pay off? :biggrin5:

All the money in Texas wouldn't be enough.

[GMichael]

(shaking head) Cats & dogs. Cats & dogs.

[Rich-n-Texas]

All the money in Texas wouldn't be enough.
Opposites attract...

[ForeverAutumn]

Opposites attract...

Not this time.

[GMichael]

Breaking News!!!!!!!!! CNN reports that gas stations will start showing PORN movies on the screens of the pumps so that you can see someone else get screwed at the same time you do !!

[markw]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/461876/

[Rich-n-Texas]

That's site's blocked here at work. Let's keep it clean Joisey boy.

[markw]

That's site's blocked here at work. Let's keep it clean Joisey boy.It must be nice to get paid to surf the net while at work.

[audio amateur]

It must be nice to get paid to surf the net while at work.
Haha! my thoughts exactly!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

We're always looking for talented engineers here Mark.

I have a great boss! :biggrin5:

[AncientWalkman]

I read the 1st post in this thread...and I laughed. If the average is $3.71...why is the cheapest gas station near me $4.19!!! Haha...it probably went up since this morning...so it's probably 4.35 now. Haha...all I can do it laugh about it!

[GMichael]

I read the 1st post in this thread...and I laughed. If the average is $3.71...why is the cheapest gas station near me $4.19!!! Haha...it probably went up since this morning...so it's probably 4.35 now. Haha...all I can do it laugh about it!

$3.71 was the average when this thread started. That was a bunch of hours ago.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It isn't blacks per se that Bush doesn't care about, it's poor and working class people. It just so happens that American blacks have more than their fair share in this category.
.

I agree with this, facts do bare this out. More so the case in New Oleans.

You have to admit Rich, the fact that Bush would turn a blind eye to what is happening in Darfur, but run hurriedly into Iraq, does make the war for oil have some validity. You notice he is not putting nearly the energy and resources into Afghanistan than he is in Iraq. Afghanistan=no oil, Iraq=plenty of oil. He is also negotiating hard for a permanent presence in Iraq, something he is not doing in Afghanistan. His motivations do look pretty suspicious.

[AncientWalkman]

$3.71 was the average when this thread started. That was a bunch of hours ago.

Haha, so true too! Sad to say...this morning the cheapest gas station in my area was 4.35...:nonod: let's all laugh together. Haha!

[GMichael]

Haha, so true too! Sad to say...this morning the cheapest gas station in my area was 4.35...:nonod: let's all laugh together. Haha!

I live in PA, work in NY, and travel through NJ each day. In PA the price is 4.05. In NY it's 4.25. In NJ it's 3.89. Guess where I stop.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I agree with this, facts do bare this out. More so the case in New Oleans.

You have to admit Rich, the fact that Bush would turn a blind eye to what is happening in Darfur, but run hurriedly into Iraq, does make the war for oil have some validity. You notice he is not putting nearly the energy and resources into Afghanistan than he is in Iraq. Afghanistan=no oil, Iraq=plenty of oil. He is also negotiating hard for a permanent presence in Iraq, something he is not doing in Afghanistan. His motivations do look pretty suspicious.
Mooooooore speculation. In any event, I'm done with this.

[ForeverAutumn]

Ooops. Can't speculate that Bush might have ulterior motives.

And frankly, there's nothing wrong with ulterior motives...let's just be honest about them.

Oh yeah, this is politics. I forgot...there's no place for honesty in politics. :)

And to stay on topic. Gas is $1.25 a litre here today. That's about $4.75 a gallon.

[Feanor]

...
Wow! That's some really fancy footwork there Bill. "to wit"? "ipso facto"? But through all that mumbo jumbo it looks to me like you're either calling all Conservatives racists, or all Americans racists. Am I reading you right?

No: I said what I meant.


It isn't blacks per se that Bush doesn't care about, it's poor and working class people. It just so happens that American blacks have more than their fair share in this category.

Republicans propound the American mystique, to wit, American is the land of opportunity where anyone can achieve wealth and success. If you don't achieve wealth and success then ipso facto you are a lazy, shiftless loser who deserves no consideration.

Can't read or what? What I meant is that conservatives in the U.S. have only contempt for the poor and that the reason has something to do with the American Myth. Racism is irrelvant in context.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Mooooooore speculation. In any event, I'm done with this.

But I am not finished yet:frown2:

[bobsticks]

I agree with this, facts do bare this out. More so the case in New Oleans.

You have to admit Rich, the fact that Bush would turn a blind eye to what is happening in Darfur, but run hurriedly into Iraq, does make the war for oil have some validity. You notice he is not putting nearly the energy and resources into Afghanistan than he is in Iraq. Afghanistan=no oil, Iraq=plenty of oil. He is also negotiating hard for a permanent presence in Iraq, something he is not doing in Afghanistan. His motivations do look pretty suspicious.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Subsidiaries of Haliburton.

[Rich-n-Texas]

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

:rolleyes:

[bobsticks]

Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, 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chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.....not much goin on in here......Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, 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chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:rolleyes:

Hannity, Combs and that lying punk O'Rielly do the same thing when someone undoes their argument.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Subsidiaries of Haliburton.

See that's what I'm sayin:yesnod:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.....not much goin on in here......Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirpChirp, chirp, chirp, chirp

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:rolleyes:

Stop rubbin your wings together and come back here, I ain't done witcha yet:devil: I just want to bite that azz just one more time:prrr:

[GMichael]

Stop rubbin your wings together and come back here, I ain't done witcha yet:devil: I just want to bite that azz just one more time:prrr:
What's this? One stinkin' week without your lady and you're already trying to bite Rich's azz?

[Feanor]

What's this? One stinkin' week without your lady and you're already trying to bite Rich's azz?

Too bad I don't give green chicklets for repartee because if I did, you'd get one that. :lol:

[GMichael]

Too bad I don't give green chicklets for repartee:
Then how will I ever earn one from you? Repartee is all I have.:1:

[trollgirl]

Wow! I was beginning to think AR had devolved into a small group talking about old times, but this is the kind of free-wheeling discussion I remember!

However, in four pages of threads, I notice that no one has gotten to the crux of the matter. Of course I am speaking of [so called] peak oil. The whole scarcity myth and price structure illusion is propped up by the idea that petroleum is a non-renewable natural resource made from the decomposed bodies of living things which were buried aeons ago. Peak oil presupposes that "when it's gone, it's gone, so we have to charge oodles for it now."

What a bunch of crap! Our lap-dog media keeps us so ill/mis-informed here in the West, that very few are aware that the Russians proved DECADES ago that oil is abiotic and is being constantly produced deep in the earth. Far under depleted oil fields lie the really big deposits, mind-boggling deposits. The Russians simply have the technology to get down there, and have found oil in places where Americans said, "No oil here."

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz

[bobsticks]

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz


True so true, so it comes down to "Do I want to vote for a party that takes all my money away and gives it to people who don't want to work?" or "Do I want to vote for a Party that takes all my money away and gives it to the Military Industrial Complex?"

[GMichael]

True so true, so it comes down to "Do I want to vote for a party that takes all my money away and gives it to people who don't want to work?" or "Do I want to vote for a Party that takes all my money away and gives it to the Military Industrial Complex?"

Or do you want to vote for a person instead of a party? Not that you can get one without the other.:mad2:

[thekid]

Well I fast forwarded past the politics so if this point was mentioned somewhere in there forgive me.......

I think with China and India entering the picture we will not be able to drill faster than we consume and with greater demand what is the incentive for the producers to increase production? The bottom line is the bottom dollar, until there are enough competing energy sources oil producers will be able to manipulate the market price for oil.

As to the more specific fallacy that if we increase drilling in the USA we will lower our gas prices. The fact is that the companies that do the drilling are large multinational companies that sell their product on the international market. Do you think the fact that the oil is drilled in the US or Iraq affects the market price? Look at Alaska, it produces large quantities of oil every day and guess which state has the highest gas prices-Alaska.
I know there are other factors that cause that to occurr but my point is that the market determines the price of oil not the location. Unless the US decided to nationalize its oil and sell it below market prices domestic oil production will not affect what we pay at the pump.

If you want cheaper gas right away look at how it is traded as a commodity and how the price is affected by market speculators. A car bomb goes off in Baghdad and the price of oil goes up in minutes because traders on Wall Street panic. Change that behavior and you can have cheaper gas tomorrow. Try to drill your way out of the problem and all you do is maintain the status quo and make a small sector of the economy even wealthier.

[bobsticks]

Or do you want to vote for a person instead of a party? Not that you can get one without the other.:mad2:

No you can't and therein lies a big part of the problem because a single person can accomplish nothing in Washington. Back in the day that freakish, little American Kim ll Jung named Ross Perot talked a good game but everyone knew that each and every policy initiative he undertook would be undercut by both parties.

I'm a Republican mostly due to my tax bracket and most of the time it embarasses me. Can you imagine Cheney and the Haliburton Boys in a room with the scions of the American Far Right? That group of greedheads and bizoids with the equally disgusting rabble of fatass, Rotarian gassbags...

"I think we need to focus on family values and the negative effects of abortion"
"Uh, yeah, agree with domestic focus" (thinks "God, can we eliminate cap-gains on my stock options?")
"Well, it's not just domestic. We need to spread the good word of Jesus Christ throughout the whole wide world". (All republican women sound like Edie McLurg in my mind)
"Absolutely, ma'am. I'll call my college bud Nicky Chabraja. He can help spread the word in some of the areas with a more divergent ideological entrenchment." (picks up phone,calls stockbroker "Yeah, Stu, General Dynamics, BUY,BUY,BUY!!")


Throughout the Bush2 administration I have had this nagging feeling that I could be persuaded to vote for an emocrat if they would just find someone leaning at least a bit to the center of their platform. Sadly, I must report that the Democratic National Party is constituted of the dumbest individuals on the face of the earth. This election should have been so far in the bag for them at this point it's ridiculous. I have no doubt that at some point there ws an actual discussion about putting that walking nose Barbara Streisand on the ticket. Clueless.

If I hear one more attack ad about how the rich don't pay their fair share I swear I'll find some obscure monarchist party and vote for it becuase the Dems don't mean that, they mean the middle and upper-middle class. I was standing in line behind two ladies at the grocery store--one dressed to the nines and ebullient with her new hairdo and Gucci bag, the other in scrubs, tired, quiet and impatient. The first drags a heaping cart of ribs and steaks and shrimp and food clearly intended for a cookout or celebration of some sort. She prattle on while the items were laboriusly checked out and bagged and, at the end, turned and said something to Scrubs while handing the girl her Electronic Debit Card (state welfare). Scrub Lady's response was, "You know what, I'm a nurse and you eat better than I do. Shut up and get out of my way". I'd have added "So I can get some sleep and get up and go to work again to pay for your dinner" but basically she encapsulated it all. That's real.

So yeah, G, I'm not a big fan of the two-party system and all the polarizing, reactionary extremism that it entails. We need a third party who's platform is "You, the citizen, STFU and go to work. When you get home do what you want 'cause it's none of our business. Us? We're gonna build some roads and make sure the water is hot. See Ya.". It's that simple.


edit: As I read to edit this one thought strikes me, I went to the advance opening of CLUB 45 last night and, therefore, may just be cranky and hungover.

[Rich-n-Texas]

If you want cheaper gas right away look at how it is traded as a commodity and how the price is affected by market speculators. A car bomb goes off in Baghdad and the price of oil goes up in minutes because traders on Wall Street panic. Change that behavior and you can have cheaper gas tomorrow. Try to drill your way out of the problem and all you do is maintain the status quo and make a small sector of the economy even wealthier.
I agree with this via this post...

In my opinion, one reason why gas prices jump the way they do is because of these Futures speculators who say things like... "recent threats against Nigeria will likely cause prices to increase." I mean, who ARE these people and why does the market react negatively every time this babble surfaces? It's a joke.
... which is post #18 in this thread.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is your name Feanor? :rolleyes:

No, but I'd be happy to change it if you think it will help.
I was kidding GMichael. No need to have a fit over it.

[GMichael]

I was kidding GMichael. No need to have a fit over it.

I'll do my best. But I'll have to go back and re-read. I don't remember having a fit.

[GMichael]

No you can't and therein lies a big part of the problem because a single person can accomplish nothing in Washington. Back in the day that freakish, little American Kim ll Jung named Ross Perot talked a good game but everyone knew that each and every policy initiative he undertook would be undercut by both parties.

I'm a Republican mostly due to my tax bracket and most of the time it embarasses me. Can you imagine Cheney and the Haliburton Boys in a room with the scions of the American Far Right? That group of greedheads and bizoids with the equally disgusting rabble of fatass, Rotarian gassbags...

"I think we need to focus on family values and the negative effects of abortion"
"Uh, yeah, agree with domestic focus" (thinks "God, can we eliminate cap-gains on my stock options?")
"Well, it's not just domestic. We need to spread the good word of Jesus Christ throughout the whole wide world". (All republican women sound like Edie McLurg in my mind)
"Absolutely, ma'am. I'll call my college bud Nicky Chabraja. He can help spread the word in some of the areas with a more divergent ideological entrenchment." (picks up phone,calls stockbroker "Yeah, Stu, General Dynamics, BUY,BUY,BUY!!")


Throughout the Bush2 administration I have had this nagging feeling that I could be persuaded to vote for an emocrat if they would just find someone leaning at least a bit to the center of their platform. Sadly, I must report that the Democratic National Party is constituted of the dumbest individuals on the face of the earth. This election should have been so far in the bag for them at this point it's ridiculous. I have no doubt that at some point there ws an actual discussion about putting that walking nose Barbara Streisand on the ticket. Clueless.

If I hear one more attack ad about how the rich don't pay their fair share I swear I'll find some obscure monarchist party and vote for it becuase the Dems don't mean that, they mean the middle and upper-middle class. I was standing in line behind two ladies at the grocery store--one dressed to the nines and ebullient with her new hairdo and Gucci bag, the other in scrubs, tired, quiet and impatient. The first drags a heaping cart of ribs and steaks and shrimp and food clearly intended for a cookout or celebration of some sort. She prattle on while the items were laboriusly checked out and bagged and, at the end, turned and said something to Scrubs while handing the girl her Electronic Debit Card (state welfare). Scrub Lady's response was, "You know what, I'm a nurse and you eat better than I do. Shut up and get out of my way". I'd have added "So I can get some sleep and get up and go to work again to pay for your dinner" but basically she encapsulated it all. That's real.

So yeah, G, I'm not a big fan of the two-party system and all the polarizing, reactionary extremism that it entails. We need a third party who's platform is "You, the citizen, STFU and go to work. When you get home do what you want 'cause it's none of our business. Us? We're gonna build some roads and make sure the water is hot. See Ya.". It's that simple.


edit: As I read to edit this one thought strikes me, I went to the advance opening of CLUB 45 last night and, therefore, may just be cranky and hungover.

Or maybe you're just saying what needed saying.
I vote for Styx.
Vote for Styx!

[Feanor]

...

Oil is plentiful, and should be cheap. Greed and Corruption are the twin causes of high gas prices. Voting Democratic will not help, as they serve the same masters as the knuckle-dragging Republicans.

Laz
What the United States needs is a genuine left-wing party. What they have is right-wing + conservative/populist party, the Republican, and centrist + quasi-"liberal" party, the Democratic.

I find it sad that the American myth that government programs can only help the shiftless and undeserving remains so persistent. It might change as the U.S.' position of leading economy erodes and American professionals and small-scale entrepreneurs find their livelihoods and imagined self-reliance shrinking along with those of the working people on whom they depend for their status.

The larger corporations and the super-rich, (both increasingly non-American), are bent on exporting good U.S. jobs as quickly as possible to foreign countries where labor costs, worker health & safely, and environmental safeguards are all minimal. The Republicans have had absolutely no response to the trend except to exacerbate it with deficit budgets to finance foreign wars that decreased national security rather than increased it, and their tried-and-futile "bribe the rich" taxation policies.

The American middle class really needs to take off it blinkers and see the world and their own precarious situation for what they really are.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think sticks writes books in his spare time. :yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

What the United States needs is a genuine left-wing party. What they have is right-wing + conservative/populist party, the Republican, and centrist + quasi-"liberal" party, the Democratic.

I find it sad that the American myth that government programs can only help the shiftless and undeserving remains so persistent. It might change as the U.S.' position of leading economy erodes and American professionals and small-scale entrepreneurs find their livelihoods and imagined self-reliance shrinking along with those of the working people on whom they depend for their status.

The larger corporations and the super-rich, (both increasingly non-American), are bent on exporting good U.S. jobs as quickly as possible to foreign countries where labor costs, worker health & safely, and environmental safeguards are all minimal. The Republicans have had absolutely no response to the trend except to exacerbate it with deficit budgets to finance foreign wars that decreased national security rather than increased it, and their tried-and-futile "bribe the rich" taxation policies.

The American middle class really needs to take off it blinkers and see the world and their own precarious situation for what they really are.
Sunday is God's day. A day of rest. :hand:

Tomorrow's another day Rich.

[bobsticks]

Feanor,

I'm curious as to how you define a "genuine Left-wing party", what it's attributes would be, and why it would be good for America. I'm not baiting, I'm just interested in someone's perspective who's got a few years under his belt and isn't entrenched in the American experience on a daily basis.Clearly, your idea of leftwing is not in tune with the Left within our existing political structure.


sticks

[GMichael]

It's time we stopped worring about one wing or the other. We need to focus on the body and work together as if we were on the same team. What are the odds?

[bobsticks]

It's time we stopped worring about one wing or the other. We need to focus on the body and work together as if we were on the same team. What are the odds?

The odds are long Mike, if only because each party has powerful members that are more concerned with what you put in your body, what you put in your mind, what words come out of your mouth, and how much money they can put in their friend's pockets to make the effort to work for the common good.

[GMichael]

The odds are long Mike, if only because each party has powerful members that are more concerned with what you put in your body, what you put in your mind, what words come out of your mouth, and how much money they can put in their friend's pockets to make the effort to work for the common good.

Too true.
(Where true = sad)

[thekid]

I would submit that the extremes on both sides of the aisle are what causes nothing to get done in DC.

What we need in this country is a truly "independent party" i.e one that does not rely on big business or special interests on either side of the arguement to supply election $ and position papers. While it is a gross simplification, the Founding Fathers got into positions of power mostly on their beliefs/ideas not those of any large corporation or sector of the economy. Jefferson or Lincoln did not conduct any polls or hire "spin doctors" before making the biggest decisions of their presidency's. Whether this "independent party" calls themselves Republicans, Democrats or Whigs means nothing to me.

We have IMO about 2 generations to make some tough decisions on the direction of this country. Somebody needs to step up to the plate and "lead" the people down a tough road ahead. We have been living off of accumulated wealth for several generations and have become stagnant in many areas that lead to the rise of the "American Century".

I think it was my grandfather who once said a man who tries to move using only his left or right leg travels in a circle, it takes both legs to move ahead.

(author tilts head back to take another swig and falls off soap box)

[Feanor]

Feanor,

I'm curious as to how you define a "genuine Left-wing party", what it's attributes would be, and why it would be good for America. I'm not baiting, I'm just interested in someone's perspective who's got a few years under his belt and isn't entrenched in the American experience on a daily basis.Clearly, your idea of leftwing is not in tune with the Left within our existing political structure.

sticks

Sticks, no doubt you're aware that the left vs.right thing dates back to the 19th century French General Assembly where parties representing the wealthy and upper classes sat to the speaker's right and those representing the poor and working classes sat to the speaker's left.

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:

Universal education through university
Universal health care
Strong workplace safety regulation
Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:

Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
Mandate protection of the environment
Tend to protectionist trade policy
Are closely connected with organized labor.Which American party shares most of these attributes or does most of these things? Neither.

Would it be good for America to have a left-wing party? Obviously extreme left-wing policies if enacted, such as universal state control of the economy and ownership of industry as practiced by the Communists, would be a bad thing. But it might not hurt the U.S. at all to move a bit closer to the examples of the Scandinavian countries that still manage to afford ordinary people with exemplary protections and benefits despite the pressures of gobalization. In any case it definitely wouldn't hurt the U.S. to have such left-wing party in competition with the right-wing Republican and centrist Democrats.

[bobsticks]

Here, here and well said Bill Bailey. I'll admit that I was prying just a bit to find out exactly how left leaning a set of policies you were advocating. I imagine that if we were to sit down and go point for point we'd probably disagree mightily on a few but agree on many more.

I suspect that at this point in the American experiment we may be at a unique low water mark in the annals of world history. I can think of no other society in any time or any place that has fostered, nay glorified, ignorance. It's too cool to be stupid. But on the other hand if the government were to play parent that would give most kids two, so maybe that's a good thing.

In any case, I agree that at some point a change toward the protection of the people, or at least the protection of the people's opportunities, must be made. Thanks for your input.

[Auricauricle]

I remember living in New York and seeing places called "Gaseteria"s (sp?)....

I had to speculate, but I tried my best not to.

Maybe they were onto something....

Ma! More beans! I gotta go to work!

(Ahem. Cough!)

[Feanor]

...

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:
Universal education through university
Universal health care
Strong workplace safety regulation
Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:
Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
Mandate protection of the environment
Tend to protectionist trade policy
Are closely connected with organized labor....

I'm getting old and senile: I forgot to mention an important attribute of proper left-wing parties. Fortunately a few others have mentioned it, so I'm just going to reinforce the point.

Left-wing parties do not rely primarily on for-profit organizations for their funding. Unfortunately it's often the case that left-wing parties are funded heavily by big labor (which is "for-profit" in a manner of speaking).

The natural tendency whenever a party is close to power, (has a good chance to win an election), it attracts contributions from for-profits who put the party their debt. These contributions are not ideological. Usually there's no expectation of changing the basic orientation of the left-wing party, rather the hope is to influence particular policies, and often this is the effect. Thus in case of the U.S. presidential elections we see anomalies and contradictions in the polices of both candidates that can be traced to financial support from particular for-profit interest groups.

I'm not a political scientist, but I suspect it's true that an effect two-party, as opposed to multi-party, system tends to lack of innovation and a practical similarity of polices. A third party of significant size can have a major influence on the policies of a least one of the other two parties even if it doesn't have a real change of winning major office.

[GMichael]

Sticks, no doubt you're aware that the left vs.right thing dates back to the 19th century French General Assembly where parties representing the wealthy and upper classes sat to the speaker's right and those representing the poor and working classes sat to the speaker's left.

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:

Universal education through university
Universal health care
Strong workplace safety regulation
Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:

Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
Mandate protection of the environment
Tend to protectionist trade policy
Are closely connected with organized labor.Which American party shares most of these attributes or does most of these things? Neither.

Would it be good for America to have a left-wing party? Obviously extreme left-wing policies if enacted, such as universal state control of the economy and ownership of industry as practiced by the Communists, would be a bad thing. But it might not hurt the U.S. at all to move a bit closer to the examples of the Scandinavian countries that still manage to afford ordinary people with exemplary protections and benefits despite the pressures of gobalization. In any case it definitely wouldn't hurt the U.S. to have such left-wing party in competition with the right-wing Republican and centrist Democrats.

So what we really have here now are two right wing parties. One that openly supports the rich and another who claims they are left wingers but actually stick it to the poor just as bad. Kinda makes it tough to choose. Where's Richard Pryor when we need him most?

[Ajani]

Let me try to attack a few of the key points in this thread:

1) Oil Prices - clearly inflated due to greed all around... sure the oil companies are making record profits, but as has been stated before: the real offenders are the Saudis and the US Government. The Gov for laying on such heavy taxes on an already overpriced commodity and the Saudis for jacking prices up... But frankly, why shouldn't they? If the world refuses to spend the time trying to explore alternative fuel sources and chooses to instead make a number of middle eastern countries extremely rich... well what do you expect? Only now that prices are jacked up to the ridiculous, do we see the kind of meaningful effort to find other energy alternatives emerging... as there was no real incentive before...

2) US Politics - (I get my news from the internet & US Cable: CNN, Fox News, Headline New etc)... Let me sum this up as eloquently as possible: Both parties suck... but since there is no third option, US citizens need to choose one....

3) Clintons and Bushes: Yes the Clintons are pathological liars BUT it's very hard to argue against how much better the US economy was under Bill Clinton than under either Bush. Both Bushes were focused on war in Iraq and putting the economy in recession. Clinton maybe the typical fast talking (lying) politician but he was arguably the best of old school politics...

4) Obama and McCain: Obama has great speeches. So It would be interesting to see if he can really deliver... McCain has well... ummm... well... I just don't get what McCain is marketing himself as... Before he became the nominee, he was being attacked by the party leaders as being "too liberal"... yet as soon as he clinched the nomination he moved to kissing Bush's @$$ and got branded as being "Bush's 3rd term"... Now that Obama is attacking him as being an extension of Bush's failed policies, he is trying to go back to being a liberal republican... ummm what??? Truth is that neither Obama nor McCain has really earned the Presidency IMO, so it really just comes down to who inspires voters at election time... Either option will be better than Bush though...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is Ralph Nader still in the picture?

[Ajani]

Is Ralph Nader still in the picture?

Was he ever really in the picture???

[trollgirl]

Was he ever really in the picture???

He was just lucky that he was only pointedly ignored. Had he been a real threat, he might have ended up suicided...

Laz

[thekid]

Let me try to attack a few of the key points in this thread:

1) Oil Prices - clearly inflated due to greed all around... sure the oil companies are making record profits, but as has been stated before: the real offenders are the Saudis and the US Government. The Gov for laying on such heavy taxes on an already overpriced commodity and the Saudis for jacking prices up... But frankly, why shouldn't they? If the world refuses to spend the time trying to explore alternative fuel sources and chooses to instead make a number of middle eastern countries extremely rich... well what do you expect? Only now that prices are jacked up to the ridiculous, do we see the kind of meaningful effort to find other energy alternatives emerging... as there was no real incentive before...

2) US Politics - (I get my news from the internet & US Cable: CNN, Fox News, Headline New etc)... Let me sum this up as eloquently as possible: Both parties suck... but since there is no third option, US citizens need to choose one....

3) Clintons and Bushes: Yes the Clintons are pathological liars BUT it's very hard to argue against how much better the US economy was under Bill Clinton than under either Bush. Both Bushes were focused on war in Iraq and putting the economy in recession. Clinton maybe the typical fast talking (lying) politician but he was arguably the best of old school politics...

4) Obama and McCain: Obama has great speeches. So It would be interesting to see if he can really deliver... McCain has well... ummm... well... I just don't get what McCain is marketing himself as... Before he became the nominee, he was being attacked by the party leaders as being "too liberal"... yet as soon as he clinched the nomination he moved to kissing Bush's @$$ and got branded as being "Bush's 3rd term"... Now that Obama is attacking him as being an extension of Bush's failed policies, he is trying to go back to being a liberal republican... ummm what??? Truth is that neither Obama nor McCain has really earned the Presidency IMO, so it really just comes down to who inspires voters at election time... Either option will be better than Bush though...


AGREED!

I actually find it a little amusing that the McCain of the 2000 campaign was saying a lot of things that Obama is saying today in terms of the status quo. However to get the nomination in 08 he wrapped his arms (literally and figuratively) to the same people who were trashing him in 2000.

As for Nader he was relevant in about 1964 when the Corvair was on the road... but talking about stretching your 15 minutes of fame..... :yesnod:

[audio_dude]

But I'm sure John McCain will get it all straightened away in his first six months in office.
:lol: :nonod:

thats if he doesn't drop dead before then.

Thats if he can even beat the Barack Attack.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Was he ever really in the picture???
My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.

The process that allows this kind of intercourse to flourish needs to be interrupted and it looks like two things need to happen. First, the population needs to quit whining and start participating (VOTE!), which could next lead to a proper Federal government that is FOR the people and operates despite the greedy power mongers that are the CEO's instead of in colusion with them.

(Yeah I know... same ol' same ol', but once again this place is dead so I thought I'd add to my post count. :ihih: )

[Feanor]

My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.
...


Rich, who do did you have in mind for an independant candidate? Rush Limbaugh? :lol:

Me, I'd rather have Ralph, which isn't say all that much. But see my discussion of left-wing parties, above. Any and all right-wing parties will attract wealth interests' support; then too most of them seek it.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, who do did you have in mind for an independant candidate? Rush Limbaugh? :lol:
I think Rush is still in rehab isn't he? :idea:


Me, I'd rather have Ralph, which isn't say all that much. But see my discussion of left-wing parties, above. Any and all right-wing parties will attract wealth interests' support; then too most of them seek it.
I read it, and learned from it as well. :thumbsup:

[thekid]

[QUOTE=Rich-n-Texas]I think Rush is still in rehab isn't he? :idea:


I don't think there is a 12-step program for what ails Rush...
Oh wait, yes there is its called K-12.........:biggrin5:

[bobsticks]

The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.)

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?

[GMichael]

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?

SHHhhhhhh..... You'll start a riot.

[thekid]

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?


Well I am trying to stay neutral in this pi**ing contest of a thread but....

The quote/observation Sticks makes is the current play being called in the GOP huddle but I have yet heard what was the legislative act that was passed in the last 18 months that the Dems passed that is the cause/effect of high gas prices.

Nancy Pelosi's House Dems and an evenly divided Senate are not passing legislation over any veto that Bush has excercised. I have not heard of any legislation that is being held up that would lower gas prices. (Please lets not drag out that Artic Refuge drilling red herring....)

As is typical with Washington, both sides of the aisle are trying to use the higher gas prices to bash the other side and are playing to their respective bases;

Dems = Corporate greed over the interests of the average Joe.
GOP = Tree huggers are causing us to leave untapped the billions of barrels of oil here in the good ol' USA.

Meanwhile nothing gets done and oil goes up, stockmarket goes down and we all lose...:cryin:

[trollgirl]

Well I am trying to stay neutral in this pi**ing contest of a thread but....

The quote/observation Sticks makes is the current play being called in the GOP huddle but I have yet heard what was the legislative act that was passed in the last 18 months that the Dems passed that is the cause/effect of high gas prices.

Nancy Pelosi's House Dems and an evenly divided Senate are not passing legislation over any veto that Bush has excercised. I have not heard of any legislation that is being held up that would lower gas prices. (Please lets not drag out that Artic Refuge drilling red herring....)

As is typical with Washington, both sides of the aisle are trying to use the higher gas prices to bash the other side and are playing to their respective bases;

Dems = Corporate greed over the interests of the average Joe.
GOP = Tree huggers are causing us to leave untapped the billions of barrels of oil here in the good ol' USA.

Meanwhile nothing gets done and oil goes up, stockmarket goes down and we all lose...:cryin:

"Dems"? "GOP"? Did it ever occur to you that me just might have a one-party system in this country? I don't remember who it was, and I wish I did, but he said, "We're ALL Republicans now." Do they not all serve the same masters? Can you really tell them apart except by checking for the "R" or "D" by the name? I wonder if it's tatooed on the backs of their necks?! Like labor unions and a free press, third parties have been eliminated as a political force.

Laz

[thekid]

"Dems"? "GOP"? Did it ever occur to you that me just might have a one-party system in this country? I don't remember who it was, and I wish I did, but he said, "We're ALL Republicans now." Do they not all serve the same masters? Can you really tell them apart except by checking for the "R" or "D" by the name? I wonder if it's tatooed on the backs of their necks?! Like labor unions and a free press, third parties have been eliminated as a political force.

Laz

Well I would tend to agree with you. Dems or GOP have become more brand names of the same product like soap. If use Tide or Gain do you really see brighter colors and whiter whites??????? Not really........in the end it is still just soap.

Until the influence of $ is removed from the process there will not be a truly independent party or candidate. Obama's candidacy is interesting in that it is raising most of its money from lots of small donations from individuals via the net. If this becomes the model for future campaigns it is possible perhaps that a candidate with strong popular appeal could be a force outside the traditional 2-party system.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am not as positive about the direction of this country than most other here are. This is just my opinion, and my opinion only.

A. The Dems and the GOP are too close to big business interests to care about poor or middle class working people. It has been seemingly impossible for either to draft legislation that preserves the interests of big business, but helps the working as well. It has become an either/or situation with them. The only way to change this is to get rid of money in the election campaigns, and publically finance them with identical monies for all. No outside contributions PERIOD. That way nobody is beholden to anyone, each person vote counts, and my senator and congressperson can spend more time tackling the issues rather than worry about raising money. Lets face it, I have a big corporation giving me $100,000, and a private person $2300. With campaigns so expensive, who do you think gets my ear? That is the problem.

B. Relying on oil is a dead proposition in the current time. There are too many parties consuming too much now for it to every become an affordable commodity. If we drill off our coast, in Anwar, or even under Los Angeles, who's to guarantee that that oil will come back to the American public? Oil is bought and sold in a market where EVERYONE all over the world has access, so do you really think that the oil companies will keep oil drilled in the US to the US, or will it sell it to the highest bidder like the free market dictates? Even if every driver in this country switches to hybrid cars, the cost of oil will not go down as long as Indian and Chinese governments subsidize oil destined for their countries. Folks there will just keep consuming just like we have in this country for the last 80+ years. It is time for all of us to let go of oil, and embrace alternative fuels, electric cars, and fuel cell cars, and get away from oil all together with. It is time for this nation to set up a mandate(just like we did to get to the moon) to develop a cleaner way to process coal into synthetic oil, since that is the only self sustaining resource we have. Drilling for more oil is not the answer, as we can never find enough to make ourselves self supporting. Other resources have come along since the gas powered engine, and we need to take advantage of it NOW while this country has the finances to do so. Everything has got to change, and our dependency and desire for oil must change as well.

C. One thing that I have learned in life is nothing is going to change until it seriously effects the powers that be. This is why in over 300 years, racism is still a major problem in this country. It is not in the best interest of the prevailing culture to tackle or eleminate racism because it shrinks the control pie to smaller slices, and nobody wants a smaller slice of the pie. This goes for economics as well. As long as our Senator and Congresspeople get free health care for life, their own banking system, sweetheart deals on loans, drivers and government auto's to drive them around, we are not going to see a damn thing change in health care, banking fee's and interest, the problems that led to the mortgage crises will crop back up, and we will never see any relief on gas prices. As long as the can give themselves raises in the middle of the night, then we will continue to see our financial condition deteriorate. Right now there is no penalty for any elected official to not act on behalf of the ordinary citizen. Voting them out does not do much, they just get another government job elsewhere.

D. Lets face it, the problems that exist in our country are of our own doing. We have checked out of our own political process(or given up on it), we are not voting OUR self interest but our parties, we have bought into the notion that we must buy, buy, buy, and consume like their is no tomorrow even if it puts us into neck deep debt. We have decided that we don't need to conserve fuel, a commodity we do not produce ourselves, and we have allowed American based companies to shaft the American public by getting tax breaks, but sending jobs to other countries. The problem is, nobody is afraid of the American public, not the government, and not big business, and they should be.

It is our fault that we have become so arrogant and self absorb as a country, that we have isolated ourselves. The policies our government has put into place have served to get us hated in every corner of the globe, with our tacit permission. We do far too much complaining, and not nearly enough action to change things. We have become satisfied with mediocrity, engrossed in the pursuit of a bargain(even if it means your neighbor get laid off), have become lost to what quality is, are quick to blame others and eschew personal responsibility, and have become pawns in a far larger game that we have a tremendous stake in.

All great societies have had a rise and a fall. Current conditions in this country resemble the beginning of the fall of the Roman Empire. We have become pampered and self absorbed, and that is weakening us, much like it did the Roman society just before it fell. You have a disproportionate concentrations of wealth distributed to an extremely small group of people just like Rome did before it fell. You have the powers that be taking advantage of the working people, just like Rome did before it fell. The simularities are there, and it is scary to realize that Edward Gibbons did all this research into the fall of Rome, and we have not paid any attention to it.

Unless we get away from oil, the balance of power will shift towards Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezula, and all of the other oil producing countries. If we do not get back our manufacturing base, then China will also eclipse us in power. The bottom line is whoever has the most wealth, has the most power. That is a local, state, country and world applicable rule. I am afraid the American public has already given its power away to these entities. It has certainly given away its good sense. We blame our politician for all of our woes, but we sent them to DC. What we need to do is make them very fearful of their non action, and make them pay dearly for it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.

The process that allows this kind of intercourse to flourish needs to be interrupted and it looks like two things need to happen. First, the population needs to quit whining and start participating (VOTE!), which could next lead to a proper Federal government that is FOR the people and operates despite the greedy power mongers that are the CEO's instead of in colusion with them.

(Yeah I know... same ol' same ol', but once again this place is dead so I thought I'd add to my post count. :ihih: )

I cannot believe I agree with you on something rotten Rich round guy!!!

[thekid]

Good points Sir TT!!

[bobsticks]

I cannot believe I agree with you on something rotten Rich round guy!!!

I would feel rather violated.

[bobsticks]

Lotsa stuff




Terrence, I agree with much of what you say...although I don't know that I would describe racism as a "major" problem in our country. I suspect that "classism" is far more prevalent and destructive within our communities. I would also submit that many acts of indifference and apathy are wrongfully ascribed to racial bigotry. Of course, it would stand to reason that most of the people I would surround myself with would be fairly liberal so it's possible that I'm missing part of the picture and nitpicking over the word "major" but nonetheless...

That said, I agree with the crux of your post that we, as a nation, have brought on many of our ills through our tax-and-spend, spend-not-save decision making. On my part I have pledged to be completely debt free in this world by mid next year and may even accomplish this by year's end but not everyone can be in that position...especially in the working and lower classes. The biggest social injustice as I see it is that which we perpetually commit against the working poor. Deception in taxation (payroll taxes) to ridiculous spending to treat-the-symptom social care are pervasive throughout our system. It is really no wonder so many decide to engage in lawless behavior.

And, at the same time, how deeply into paternalism do we expect our government to delve? Governments can't and shouldn't control thoughts and feelings and yet this seems to be either expected or allowed or even tacitly agreed upon. With the largest generation of Americans getting to retire and the cost associated with such we are going to have to make some tough decisions---strip it down to bare bones as it were. If I were to father a child this day I would be more concerned with the improvement of our math and science curricula than whether that child was empathetic toward the plight of Bangeldeshi women.

We seem steadfastly resolute in forming a society based not on any real accomplishment but the fervent belief that, at all costs, everyone should feel good about themselves at all times regardless of merit...which may be good in the long run since our government is offering tax incentives for companies to ship production-based jobs offshore.

The tie to oil is, of course, that we're gleefuly succoring on the swine that our own government allows to extort our life savings and, indeed, it arms them militarily...and we expected something else? Excuse me while adjust my Tammany Hall pillow and go to the fridge for a Shin Kanemaru "Sagawa Kyubin" bar. We reap what we sew and the lack of specific accountability has led us to this point. So, yes, I too agree with Rich no matter how disdainful that might be :)

I predict that within this century you will see the first election in which the question will not be if the first woman or African-American can get elected, but whether a third party candidate can be viable via the internet. That would be the only medium by which a candidate without major corporate funding to access the masses...and even then a massive McGovern-style freak/youth vote would be required.

The only thing for sure is that the future of America is fraught with challenging and troubling waters to navigate lest the will of the people be subordinate to oligarchy.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

IMO racism, and classism walk arm and arm. Careful scrutiny of these complex issues bares this out.

If you jail minorities at a far greater rate than the majority, stick them with a criminal record that sticks for the rest of their life, getting a job is more difficult, and they are consigned to poverty or the lower class for life. That is what is happening now.

Raising the GPA that qualifies you for entrance is also another form of racism which leads to classism. To qualify for entrance to the University of California at Berkeley require at least a 4.25 GPA. How is a poor minority(or any poor person) to get into this school without college prep courses that by the way, their high school cannot afford. Or the fact that the really good qualified teachers tend to go to schools where the students come from realitively affluent families, leaving the poor with teachers that are underqualified and apathetic towards their students.

Classism and racism used to be seperate discussions. Now they are joined at the hip when you dig deeper than the surface.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I would feel rather violated.
Gee... The thanks I get for wishing you a happy fourth. :(

Yes, I had a *blast* yesterday. Still smelling gunpowder!
:cool:

[Feanor]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

[Ajani]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

Despite a really brilliant post by Sir T, I do have to agree with this point...

Sure both parties suck... but lumping them as the same, rather than taking the time to at least vote for the least bad of the two, does NOTHING to improve America. Voting for the less bad party at least sends a message to the other one to step up their game and try to get even less bad than the one you voted for... and while both parties spend the next part of forever getting incrementally less bad, you might just find that a realistic outside option turns up...

You have to vote, write letters, protest, whatever... if you really hope to see any change... throwing up your hands and saying they're all corrupt will only let the situation continue....

[thekid]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

I think you might misunderstand my position regarding Dems and Republicans. They are IMO in the pockets of wealthy or powerful interests but it is important to know the differences/sources of the interests influencing the parties and to some extent your voting should based on whether you agree or disagree with those influences.

Both parties appeal to their bases during primaries to raise money-move to the center in general election so that they generate mass appeal and then once in power move back to serving their base through legislation and pork barrel spending so they can raise money for the next election. In that sense they are cut from the same cloth and are in sense the same party. When I talk of an "independent party" I really speak of one that excercises "independent thought" and makes decisions on what is the right thing to do, not the "political" thing to do.

I do not think helping the poor rise above poverty has to be exclusively a left-wing-liberal-Democratic platform anymore than having a strong national defense has to be a right-wing-conservative-Republican platform. They are both goals we should aim for but we do not want to spend the money to do both so the parties take up opposing positions and frame it as an almost either or proposition. Again a gross oversimplifcation but it tends to hold true at is core.

Because too many voters have abandoned the political process we have allowed the two parties to only be worried about pleasing a vocal minority. They legislate towards that minority and we end up with stagnant, gridlocked government because the two minorities almost always refuse to agree unless they get paid off in some sort of quid quo pro fashion. Why do you think the largest deficits this country have ever seen have been run up while Republicans (the self-proclaimed party of small government) have been in the White House with practically no opposition from the Democrats. This behavior adds to the perception that they are the same party because they act almost exclusively for the purpose of obtaining/holding power. Incumbents tend to stay elected year after year because they have mastered the act of bringing home pork to their constituents while ranting about the "do-nothing politicians back in DC". People hate Congress but love their representatives, failing to connect the two.

[bobsticks]

Gee... The thanks I get for wishing you a happy fourth. :(

Yes, I had a *blast* yesterday. Still smelling gunpowder!
:cool:

Yeah, but did the carrier pidgeons bring any lovin' yet?

[bobsticks]

The quote/observation Sticks makes is the current play being called in the GOP huddle but I have yet heard what was the legislative act that was passed in the last 18 months that the Dems passed that is the cause/effect of high gas prices.

It doesn't have to do with a specific piece of legislation. As mentioned before the speculators that effect prices react to the current political landscape. The introduction of more union cronies and protectionists sends a ripple of confidence-quashing fear across the market.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

Feanor, when you look at just the surface, sure there are differences. When it comes to legislation, sure the two have differences. But when it comes to solving problems and dealing with issues, sorry, the two blend together. Why does American not have universal health care? Because BOTH sides get money from the health insurance lobby who donate to campaigns to make sure that status quo is maintained. Why has this country not moved from oil to coal? Its not technology that is for sure, its the oil companies that donate to campaigns to make sure the status quo remains. Why do we outsource jobs, and give tax credits for the practice? Because companies like MIcrosoft donate big money to make sure they have access to cheap labor. One the surface, they have different agendas. When it comes to action, they are both governed by the same rule, follow the money.

So you know, I cannot speak for EVERY American, but I can speak for those I have discussed this issue with. We all vote on the lesser of two evils. It has come to this, and has been this way for a while. I personally have not been enthused about any candidate for any office other than my local congresswoman, and the mayor we used to have. Obama is the first Presidential candidate that I have been enthused about since I started voting. Its not that I think he can really steer the ship around, its his message that I think gets me interested. Its the dramatic change and fresh thinking he brings to the table. Its the fact that he has gotten this far in a country that just 50 years ago wouldn't have let him vote in any election.



As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

If you look at the surface, yes there are differences. But let's look at what the two have done over the last decade or so. Republicans which used to stand for fiscal financial and personal responsibility have ran up our national debt to the largest we have seen in decades. You have republican Senators and Congressmen chased out of office for personal indescretions, something unheard of years ago. We have been in two major wars costing millions of lives, watched the largest exodus of jobs and seen our manufacturing base(which is our power) decimated and replaced by low paying jobs. This republican President has decimated environmental laws to suit big business, has completely dismissed the will of the people(70% of us want this war over NOW), and has taken action that has drawn us enemies that would not have been in our face years ago. His action have made opposition of our friends, and set this country's foreign policy back at least 30-40 years. This is not the republican party of 50 years ago

Democrats, the party of the people has been reduced to a bunch of bumbling idiots. When they had the Senate and White House under Clinton, they could not get universal health care passed. They have not been able to stop the outsourcing of jobs, or the decimation of the manufacturing sector which was the very foundation of the middle class since WWII. They stood by and watch Cheney draft our energy policy with the very wolves that seek to suck us dry. They have not been able to stop non bid contracts going to American companies, or the corruption these contracts have fostered. Since they have gained control of the house, they have not been able to shape the course of this war through its financing, or stop the supplimental bills and requests that hide the true cost of this war. They have not been bold enough to really be the party of the people because they are too busy trying to hang on to power, which has made them truely powerless.


In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

Actually it does not have to be this way, but it is. Our lovely media and news agencies have essentially chased any really qualified candidates away through the vetting process. The smearing, painting and labeling, dragging out skeletons, inventing of stories and starting rumors, has killed any chance for a qualified and truely passionate person from even running for office.

I think the worst thing of all for this country is that there has only been white males in the office of the President. No women, no minorities. This has created a non diverse, monothematic thought process that has brought us from greatness to turmoil. Women and minorities tend to look at problems in quite a different way than white males(not a bad thing necessarily, but its bad when its all you have). White males are top down thinkers(a generalization and observation), and Women and minorities tend to be bottom up thinkers(also a generalization and observation), because that is where they are on the totom pole. Top down thinking is great when things are going well, but piss poor when things are going badly. Bottom up thinking is great when things are bad, but not so great when things are good. The diversity of thought that the combination of white males, minorities and women bring to the table is much more broad, and representitative of what America really is. In that combination, everyone's issues are on the table, and everyone is fairly represented, and everyone has the chance to look at problems from all angles. This is not a knock on white males, but a call for diversity of thought and opinion, which we do not have presently.

I wish I felt better about where things are headed, but I don't. I do not think the will of the American people is there. Its like we are living in some matrix where we go about our daily lives while the world around us is crumbling. We have given in to the distraction of consuming, which is exactly what our government wants us to do to keep us distracted from what they are doing in Washington. We have gotten too fat, pampered and lazy to demand change in a forceful way. Now we have pretty much gotten just what we deserve for our lack of engagement.

Damn, I have just depressed myself. I need retail therapy, and a gallon of Ben and Jerry's Rocky road.

[Feanor]

....

I do not think helping the poor rise above poverty has to be exclusively a left-wing-liberal-Democratic platform anymore than having a strong national defense has to be a right-wing-conservative-Republican platform. They are both goals we should aim for but we do not want to spend the money to do both so the parties take up opposing positions and frame it as an almost either or proposition. Again a gross oversimplifcation but it tends to hold true at is core.

...
A party that genuinely aims to help the poor and makes that its highest priority is by definition a left-wing party. Such a party doesn't have to be socialist or even "liberal".
Sometimes a conservative/right-wing party will claim -- and its more naive supporters actually believe -- that it has the interests of the poor in mind because it supports ideological capitalism or "family values". This is delusional however.
The irony of the Republicans is that their stupid national security policies have actually increased the danger to the U.S. I've heard it said that most Americans feel the Republicans are stronger on national security: a classic case of SFB if ever there was one
....

Because too many voters have abandoned the political process we have allowed the two parties to only be worried about pleasing a vocal minority. They legislate towards that minority and we end up with stagnant, gridlocked government because the two minorities almost always refuse to agree unless they get paid off in some sort of quid quo pro fashion. Why do you think the largest deficits this country have ever seen have been run up while Republicans (the self-proclaimed party of small government) have been in the White House with practically no opposition from the Democrats. This behavior adds to the perception that they are the same party because they act almost exclusively for the purpose of obtaining/holding power. Incumbents tend to stay elected year after year because they have mastered the act of bringing home pork to their constituents while ranting about the "do-nothing politicians back in DC". People hate Congress but love their representatives, failing to connect the two.
U.S right-wingers -- and Canadian one too I might add -- have not proven themselves fiscally responsible. I think we should understand that the only real fiscal goal of the right-wing is low taxes. This does not preclude deficit budgeting, in fact it encourages it.
98% of politicians go into as a career, (often though not always with goal of personal enrichment). Accordingly they tend to affiliate to which ever party is more likely to get them elected to office and keep them there. I really don't how we can deal with the professional aspirations of politicians, or whether it's even desirable to do so.

[bobsticks]

IMO racism, and classism walk arm and arm. Careful scrutiny of these complex issues bares this out...Classism and racism used to be seperate discussions. Now they are joined at the hip when you dig deeper than the surface.

Joined in a reciprocating relationship to be sure...sometimes more like the chicken and the egg.

And, I'll agree 100% that the variance in jail sentences is a rascist construct. Anytime one raises the penalty for a crime that is disproportionally commited by a certain segment of the population it's clear that segment is being targeted. I've posted this exact thought before on these very forums.

I think you have to be careful when discussing education especially when conjoining thoughts between cause and effect. The raising of GPA is rascist? Well, it could be so I won't argue the point to feverishly. When I got out of college I was off like a shot, never to look back except for my monthly Sallie Mae reminder...recognizing that the same level of accomplishment from a few decades ago is now the expectation at a higher grade though. That's why it's not uncommon to find seventh grade textbooks being used in ninth grade. The current climate in K-12 is such that admins are pressured to prepare kids for success and unfortunately, often as not, that is as much predicated on appearance on paper as it is in their little hearts and minds.


How is a poor minority(or any poor person) to get into this school without college prep courses that by the way, their high school cannot afford. Or the fact that the really good qualified teachers tend to go to schools where the students come from realitively affluent families, leaving the poor with teachers that are underqualified and apathetic towards their students.

Sentence one, absolutely, but remember that the financial issues are often the result of how we allocate monies from property taxes on a local level. The system is lopsided to be sure but l have a hard time believing that an African-American, Latino, white, Chinese, or Bangladeshi family from the affluent suburbs would approve of money being diverted from their immediate area's school systems to the detriment of their children. Point breing it's a decision based on family and self-interest.

Obviously, as long as the system remains the same certain property values will never rise nor will certain school systems be elevated.

I guess I would stress your own parenthetical phrase, "or any poor person", and the reason I think we have to be careful and, indeed, the reason that I'm taking the time to type this demented screed is that this is one of many battles for which we're going to have to unite to find common solutions...and that doesn't happen if we're accusing and namecalling. In today's hyper-sensitive society about the worst thing one can be called, other than a rapist or a pedophile, is a racist.

We use words to batter people sometimes and this distinction will be important in consensus and team building. I think we all agree that the results of current policy are counterproductive and do nothing but perpetuate division, separation, and conflict but I think we have to be careful when assigning motive.

Heady stuff, to be sure...and we've certainly veered away from oil and attacked all the ills of society. I'm sure the lobbyists for the oil companies and the bureaucracy would be proud. Sometime soon we'll have to pop open that bottle of Gran Patron Burdeos Anejo and go head-to-head, face-to-face...

...but I ain't wearin' no dress.

[thekid]

It doesn't have to do with a specific piece of legislation. As mentioned before the speculators that effect prices react to the current political landscape. The introduction of more union cronies and protectionists sends a ripple of confidence-quashing fear across the market.

I have heard that arguement before as well and it sounds good on the surface but history does not support it. If the market reacted in such a simplistic manner it would be down during a Democratic administration and up in a Republican one which is not the case. Wall Street in the long term reacts to actions not specualtion.

If you take the reverse of your statement then under a Cheney/Haliburton lead administration oil/gas prices should have remained flat or gone down during the period of time the Republicans controlled the Executive and Legislative branch. That however was not the case since gas first hit $3 a gallon at the height of the Bush administration

Wall Street benefited far more under Robert Rubin in the Clinton administration than in the unregulated atmosphere of the last 7 years. A unilateral war in the Middle East which has antagonized many of our traditional allies in the area has given the specualtors more fodder than the "fear" of unions and protectionism.

[bobsticks]

On a completely unrelated, further off-topic and generally unimportant note, I had to laugh at this e-mail that I just received that included an excerpt from a recent speech given by Bill Gates at a high school graduation. The speech's focus was to encourage young people to think and act for themselves and included these eleven thoughts for the departing graduates:

" Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time..

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one. "

[thekid]

Thanks Sticks-this thread has at least given me something to do in between my recording LP's while the T-storms have been rolling through today. We need the rain and hopefully it will put out a couple of wildfires in our area. The smoke from those things has been terrible now for about a month.

I have heard variations on those rules before but it does not make them any less funny or less true.....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

On a completely unrelated, further off-topic and generally unimportant note, I had to laugh at this e-mail that I just received that included an excerpt from a recent speech given by Bill Gates at a high school graduation. The speech's focus was to encourage young people to think and act for themselves and included these eleven thoughts for the departing graduates:

" Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time..

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one. "

Sticks,
You need to get this posted in every University in this country.


I think you have to be careful when discussing education especially when conjoining thoughts between cause and effect. The raising of GPA is rascist? Well, it could be so I won't argue the point to feverishly. When I got out of college I was off like a shot, never to look back except for my monthly Sallie Mae reminder...recognizing that the same level of accomplishment from a few decades ago is now the expectation at a higher grade though. That's why it's not uncommon to find seventh grade textbooks being used in ninth grade. The current climate in K-12 is such that admins are pressured to prepare kids for success and unfortunately, often as not, that is as much predicated on appearance on paper as it is in their little hearts and minds.

Sticks,
I'll tell you why I think a 4.25 GPA is racist in this case. In order to get a 4.25 GPA, your high school must offer college prep courses. This is not a problem for schools in affluent areas(like the city of Albany where I live), but is a problem for schools in the neighboring cities like Richmond and Oakland. No high school in those areas offer college prep courses, so a student from those schools(which are largely minority) can get in to UC Berkeley. As a matter of fact almost all the schools in California with a largely minority student population cannot afford college prep courses on campus. When you add in the effects of prop 209 which does not allow race as a consideration of enrollment (just about every UC Berkeley professor has come out saying that racial diversity is paramount on that campus) it creates a real problem for minority students.
As a result of both issues, minority enrollment (with the exception of Asians) at UC Berkeley has dropped through the floor boards. African American enrollment this year is less than 2 percent, and it was 10 percent just ten years ago. Latino enrollment is about 3 percent and it as 8 percent just 10 years ago. UC Berkeley is now made up of mostly white and asian students now, UCLA is headed that way as well.

My boys both graduated with a 4.25 GPA, and they refused to enroll at UC Berkeley because they did not want to feel racially isolated on campus. A study done by Dr. Jackie Mimms showed that most minority students that could get into UC Berkeley would rather go to school out of state than in California, because they feel that UC does not want them. They have not moved to change any of these policies even though they know it is reducing diversity on their two flagship campuses. This is why I feel in this case that allowing the enrolling GPA at 4.25 is a racist practice. Its not fair to all races, or all people from all economic backgrounds. Classism and racism walking hand in hand.

[Feanor]

Sticks,
... Classism and racism walking hand in hand.

Indeed, but if you are truly not a racist, then you must oppose race-based criteria as a means to compensate for class-based problems. You need to attact class issues as class issues. Don't give preference to racial "minority" students; rather to provide adequate funding to ensure all students can get the college prep, regardless of race or class, through adequate funding everywhere.

George W. and the GOP don't hate blacks, they hate poor people -- or "wet people" as Jon Stewart would have it in relation to Katrina and midwest flood victims.

Let comment that here in Ontario we have serious under funding of post-secondary education. Here there are no private universities, i.e. they are all constrained in what they can charge for tuition; at the same time they don't receive adequate government funding to accept all qualified students. My daughter was a solid B+ student but this wasn't enough to get her into any university in southern Ontario. Since we can't afford to board her at a school outside of commuting distance, she simply didn't get to go to university. Fortunately she found some additional motivation and will be attending the dental hygenist program at a local college. To do that, she had to beat out over 1100 applicants for the program; (33 accepted / 1145 applications). Incidentally her fees, books, and suppies are >3X the average for undergrad university programs, or for that matter, my son's MSc Computer Science fees.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, but did the carrier pidgeons bring any lovin' yet?
Oh oh oh!!! Now I get it. Yes the bird dropped a turd. :smilewinkgrin:


George W. and the GOP don't hate blacks, they hate poor people -- or "wet people" as Jon Stewart would have it in relation to Katrina and midwest flood victims.
There you go again making blanket assuptions about what you, the grandstander don't agree with.

Jon Stewart? :rolleyes: Small potatoes. You should hear what Jay Leno says about Hilliary Clinton, and what he's said about Slick Willie over what, the past 15 years?

[Woochifer]

I'll tell you why I think a 4.25 GPA is racist in this case. In order to get a 4.25 GPA, your high school must offer college prep courses. This is not a problem for schools in affluent areas(like the city of Albany where I live), but is a problem for schools in the neighboring cities like Richmond and Oakland. No high school in those areas offer college prep courses, so a student from those schools(which are largely minority) can get in to UC Berkeley. As a matter of fact almost all the schools in California with a largely minority student population cannot afford college prep courses on campus. When you add in the effects of prop 209 which does not allow race as a consideration of enrollment (just about every UC Berkeley professor has come out saying that racial diversity is paramount on that campus) it creates a real problem for minority students.

T, gotta disagree with you here. The most disadvantaged students in terms of access to honors and AP courses are actually those who live in rural areas. Schools in Oakland and Richmond have a fairly broad range of honors courses. The problem is that students might need to take some courses at a different campus or enroll at community college. Yes, it is an access issue, but not nearly as bad as I've seen in rural districts.

The issue with those inner city schools is that the number of students entering high school on a college prep track is relatively low. For those students motivated and prepared enough to enroll in college prep courses, they are available. They just make up a relatively low percentage of the students and courses. Not having a lot of peer reinforcement, and counselors with the broad knowledge needed to move the students through the college admissions process, are just some of the issues to overcome.

The GPA is obviously impacted by those factors, but schools like the UC and Cal State systems already account for this in their admissions criteria. For students who do attend high schools with limited resources, their GPA is not viewed the same as someone who attends a wealthier school district that offers more honors courses.


As a result of both issues, minority enrollment (with the exception of Asians) at UC Berkeley has dropped through the floor boards. African American enrollment this year is less than 2 percent, and it was 10 percent just ten years ago. Latino enrollment is about 3 percent and it as 8 percent just 10 years ago. UC Berkeley is now made up of mostly white and asian students now, UCLA is headed that way as well.

Actually, UC Berkeley went to a comprehensive review three years ago, and UCLA went there last year. Under the old setup, close to half of the admits at Cal and less than half at UCLA were admitted based solely on GPA and test scores (with some accounting for class rank and geography). Only the remaining slots would consider other factors such as family history, school disadvantages, working to support the family, etc. Under the current setup, every applicant gets a complete read. And this is aimed at boosting the enrollment levels from those students that come from inner city and rural school districts.

UCLA's Latino enrollment for the Fall 08 class is now over 21% (up from 18% in 07), while the African American enrollment is close to 5% (up from 2% three years ago). The Latino enrollment's now close to pre-209 levels, while the African American enrollment still has a ways to go.

With the UC, I doubt that they will completely recover to pre-209 levels for one reason -- the UC did away with affirmative action, but most of the private schools that compete with the UC for the most talented minority students still have affirmative action in place. In my work on a UC scholarship committee, I can see the offers that these private schools give to the top Latino and African American applicants, and the UC often can't offer comparable scholarships.


My boys both graduated with a 4.25 GPA, and they refused to enroll at UC Berkeley because they did not want to feel racially isolated on campus. A study done by Dr. Jackie Mimms showed that most minority students that could get into UC Berkeley would rather go to school out of state than in California, because they feel that UC does not want them. They have not moved to change any of these policies even though they know it is reducing diversity on their two flagship campuses. This is why I feel in this case that allowing the enrolling GPA at 4.25 is a racist practice. Its not fair to all races, or all people from all economic backgrounds. Classism and racism walking hand in hand.

Again, I don't know how old this information is, but the UC has been putting on a full court press the last couple of years. I've been involved in some of UCLA's outreach, and I know admissions staffers who are logging a lot of miles to try and reverse the tide (and actually had been very active at inner city outreach even before the admissions changes began). It's pretty much campus by campus, and student by student, and that takes a lot of effort. To say that the campuses have done nothing doesn't account for the major changes that the admissions departments at Cal and UCLA have implemented.

And on the issue of classism, you should look at the Washington Monthly rankings, which evaluates colleges based on social mobility, research, and service. In 2007, UCLA ranked #2, while Cal ranked #3, and UCSD #4.

[Rich-n-Texas]

So Wooch, is the city of Albany really an affluent area? And does Sir talky really live there?

:biggrin5:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Indeed, but if you are truly not a racist, then you must oppose race-based criteria as a means to compensate for class-based problems. You need to attact class issues as class issues. Don't give preference to racial "minority" students; rather to provide adequate funding to ensure all students can get the college prep, regardless of race or class, through adequate funding everywhere.

They are not doing this, and are not going to do this. That is the way it is here. Minorities are underrepresented in every faucet of life in America except the jails, so to acheive SOME kind of equality you need race based preferences. Racism is institutionalized, and you cannot rely on the prevailing culture to change. There is nothing in it for them. I do not believe in preferences that put unqualified people in jobs, schools etc.. But if you let this system play out without any governing laws to address it, the only people with a decent job, a decent education and a decent life would be the prevailing race. It used to be that way right? Didn't you hear about white only resturants, toilets, Hotels, Bars, etc?


George W. and the GOP don't hate blacks, they hate poor people -- or "wet people" as Jon Stewart would have it in relation to Katrina and midwest flood victims.

He doesn't hate blacks I agree, he is indifferent towards them, which is worse.

Let comment that here in Ontario we have serious under funding of post-secondary education. Here there are no private universities, i.e. they are all constrained in what they can charge for tuition; at the same time they don't receive adequate government funding to accept all qualified students. My daughter was a solid B+ student but this wasn't enough to get her into any university in southern Ontario. Since we can't afford to board her at a school outside of commuting distance, she simply didn't get to go to university. Fortunately she found some additional motivation and will be attending the dental hygenist program at a local college. To do that, she had to beat out over 1100 applicants for the program; (33 accepted / 1145 applications). Incidentally her fees, books, and suppies are >3X the average for undergrad university programs, or for that matter, my son's MSc Computer Science fees.[/QUOTE]

It sounds like this problem is effecting everyone regardless of race. I am wondering when governments will realize that future economic growth depends on having a educated population. I think quite a few governments believe that if you do not educate large segments of your public, then its easier to keep them pacified. The Arab world has this down pat.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

T, gotta disagree with you here. The most disadvantaged students in terms of access to honors and AP courses are actually those who live in rural areas. Schools in Oakland and Richmond have a fairly broad range of honors courses. The problem is that students might need to take some courses at a different campus or enroll at community college. Yes, it is an access issue, but not nearly as bad as I've seen in rural districts.

Wooch, I am a mentor for several students at Oakland high, and they do not have a single college prep course in their campus. Since the Peralta College system began charging for community college units, it makes that resource unavailable to the poor, which in Oakland is mostly the latino and african american students. Richmond has the same issues. Its not enough to have them around, folks have to be able to afford them as well.


The issue with those inner city schools is that the number of students entering high school on a college prep track is relatively low. For those students motivated and prepared enough to enroll in college prep courses, they are available. They just make up a relatively low percentage of the students and courses. Not having a lot of peer reinforcement, and counselors with the broad knowledge needed to move the students through the college admissions process, are just some of the issues to overcome.

The GPA is obviously impacted by those factors, but schools like the UC and Cal State systems already account for this in their admissions criteria. For students who do attend high schools with limited resources, their GPA is not viewed the same as someone who attends a wealthier school district that offers more honors courses.

Wooch, I think you are missing a piece here. They only have so many slots for freshman at UC, and Cal state, and because of impeding budget cuts, those slots are getting less and less. They are first offered to the most qualified students(usually those with the highest GPA) and whatever slots are left go to the students as you describe. Lately there has not been much left, hence why UC will not recover to pre-209 levels. Cal State and UC have hiked their fee's every year for the last 7 years, and student loans are difficult to find. So even if a student can get in those schools, that cannot afford them.



Actually, UC Berkeley went to a comprehensive review three years ago, and UCLA went there last year. Under the old setup, close to half of the admits at Cal and less than half at UCLA were admitted based solely on GPA and test scores (with some accounting for class rank and geography). Only the remaining slots would consider other factors such as family history, school disadvantages, working to support the family, etc. Under the current setup, every applicant gets a complete read. And this is aimed at boosting the enrollment levels from those students that come from inner city and rural school districts.

Unfortunately there are not enough slots that take other factors under consideration.


UCLA's Latino enrollment for the Fall 08 class is now over 21% (up from 18% in 07), while the African American enrollment is close to 5% (up from 2% three years ago). The Latino enrollment's now close to pre-209 levels, while the African American enrollment still has a ways to go.

The last time I spoke with Dr. Mimms who is Vice President of School and University partnerships and educational Outreach for UC(and happens to be a good friend of mine) her figures for UCLA were quite a bit lower than what you mention for Latino students. Her figures are definately lower for African American students.


With the UC, I doubt that they will completely recover to pre-209 levels for one reason -- the UC did away with affirmative action, but most of the private schools that compete with the UC for the most talented minority students still have affirmative action in place. In my work on a UC scholarship committee, I can see the offers that these private schools give to the top Latino and African American applicants, and the UC often can't offer comparable scholarships.

According to Dr Mimms study, even if they compete with the private schools offers, most African American students would still go elsewhere. Prop 209 sent a pretty clear message to them that they are not wanted, at least that is what they think.



Again, I don't know how old this information is, but the UC has been putting on a full court press the last couple of years. I've been involved in some of UCLA's outreach, and I know admissions staffers who are logging a lot of miles to try and reverse the tide (and actually had been very active at inner city outreach even before the admissions changes began). It's pretty much campus by campus, and student by student, and that takes a lot of effort. To say that the campuses have done nothing doesn't account for the major changes that the admissions departments at Cal and UCLA have implemented.

Wooch, efforts are great, results are better. They may be trying at the campus level, but at the Office of the President they are going to lay off 80 percent of their outreach staff in three months. This information I got yesterday from a buddy who works in outreach. To me this puts serious doubt on their committment to outreach, as the campus cannot do this by themselves. And considering the fact that Awrnold is about to cut their budgets significantly, I seriously doubt they will be able to sustain their committment to outreach even at the campus level.


And on the issue of classism, you should look at the Washington Monthly rankings, which evaluates colleges based on social mobility, research, and service. In 2007, UCLA ranked #2, while Cal ranked #3, and UCSD #4.

None of these schools have a significant minority population, so just how does this raised the social mobility for them?

[Feanor]

They are not doing this, and are not going to do this. That is the way it is here. Minorities are underrepresented in every faucet of life in America except the jails, so to acheive SOME kind of equality you need race based preferences. Racism is institutionalized, and you cannot rely on the prevailing culture to change. There is nothing in it for them. I do not believe in preferences that put unqualified people in jobs, schools etc.. But if you let this system play out without any governing laws to address it, the only people with a decent job, a decent education and a decent life would be the prevailing race. It used to be that way right? Didn't you hear about white only resturants, toilets, Hotels, Bars, etc?

...

Do I remember? Oh, yeah. I remember how appalled I was visiting Florida in the late '50s by the "Whites only" sign over the water fountains. We didn't have those in Quebec.

But I have always be doubtful about affirmative action. Fundamentally you can't discriminate in favor of one group of people without discriminating against another. Yep, that simple. Does affirmative action tend to, as you say, "SOME sort of equality"? Perhaps some sort, but is it the sort we want? What we ought to want is not so some much material equality as fairness and equality of opportunity.

When a while kid with an 82% average is beat out by a black kid with a 67% average for a scarce university spot, you may say, well, the black kid didn't attend as good a high school. Maybe he didn't or maybe the white guy did well despite the fact that he too went to a not so great school; if the color rather the school is the criterion then the result is injustice. But in the instant, fix the damned high schools, so the choice doesn't have to be made.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I am a mentor for several students at Oakland high, and they do not have a single college prep course in their campus. Since the Peralta College system began charging for community college units, it makes that resource unavailable to the poor, which in Oakland is mostly the latino and african american students. Richmond has the same issues. Its not enough to have them around, folks have to be able to afford them as well.

Good point about the cost of community college units. That does present an obstacle, though I recall that fee waivers are still available to those students who really need them.

Also, college prep is not the same thing as AP/honors in the UC admissions parlance. Every high school out there has some form of college prep course work -- some of them are needed just for graduation. The shortage on a campus by campus basis has been with the AP/honors courses that count for the extra grade points. In Oakland, I recall that Skyline had a pretty solid AP program, and some students from neighboring schools went there to take their advanced classes. Oakland Tech is another school that I recall had some AP courses on campus. It's a sad situation when students have to jump through that many hoops in order to enroll in courses at their academic level, but this is less problematic than rural districts where the nearest school offering any AP courses might be more than 50 miles away.


Wooch, I think you are missing a piece here. They only have so many slots for freshman at UC, and Cal state, and because of impeding budget cuts, those slots are getting less and less. They are first offered to the most qualified students(usually those with the highest GPA) and whatever slots are left go to the students as you describe. Lately there has not been much left, hence why UC will not recover to pre-209 levels. Cal State and UC have hiked their fee's every year for the last 7 years, and student loans are difficult to find. So even if a student can get in those schools, that cannot afford them.

Actually, the number of slots has remained roughly the same across the UC, and even expanded due to the opening of the Merced campus. The real problem is that the number of applicants has soared over the past decade.

The UC Master Plan establishes that every student in California that graduates in the top 12.5% is eligible for a spot in the UC system -- but, it does not guarantee a spot at the most in-demand campuses (which are [in order of applicants] UCLA, UCSD, and Berkeley -- yes, UCSD attracts more applicants than Cal). California's population growth with the Millennial generation in particular has put that guarantee in peril, even with the opening of UC Merced.

Yes, the UC and Cal State costs have soared over the past decade, but the UC still costs about 1/4 of what a private school requires. The need-based and merit-based scholarships are out there. Half the problem with the programs I participate in is getting eligible students to apply for them in the first place. In the inner city districts, the challenge is getting the word out to the students that these financial aid programs exist. The counselors at these schools are behind the 8-ball just getting their students to graduate. They just don't have the time to keep on top of all the scholarship programs for those few students who are a college track.

There's a lot of rumormongering out there, and it's crazy what students believe to be true. Of course, the things that students believe is downright rational compared to what I hear from the parents! :D


Unfortunately there are not enough slots that take other factors under consideration.

Under the comprehensive review guidelines, ALL of the slots take these other factors into consideration. The weighting might not be what some advocates would like, but this is big change from how Cal and UCLA had been conducting the admissions reviews.


The last time I spoke with Dr. Mimms who is Vice President of School and University partnerships and educational Outreach for UC(and happens to be a good friend of mine) her figures for UCLA were quite a bit lower than what you mention for Latino students. Her figures are definately lower for African American students.

She's not quoting the exact figures then. I get an outreach orientation from the UCLA admissions office every year, and they go over the updated student stats. This is the latest enrollment breakdown straight from the Chancellor's office.

http://www.magazine.ucla.edu/exclusives/2008_freshmen-enrollment/


According to Dr Mimms study, even if they compete with the private schools offers, most African American students would still go elsewhere. Prop 209 sent a pretty clear message to them that they are not wanted, at least that is what they think.

According to the linked article, half of the African American students offered admission by UCLA for the Fall 08 quarter enrolled at the university. That 50% take-rate among AA's is higher than the 40% take-rate among all students.

If this study is more than two years old, then it's way outdated, because that was when UCLA mobilized its current outreach program.


Wooch, efforts are great, results are better. They may be trying at the campus level, but at the Office of the President they are going to lay off 80 percent of their outreach staff in three months. This information I got yesterday from a buddy who works in outreach. To me this puts serious doubt on their commitment to outreach, as the campus cannot do this by themselves. And considering the fact that Awrnold is about to cut their budgets significantly, I seriously doubt they will be able to sustain their committment to outreach even at the campus level.

Actually, with UCLA at least, their outreach has produced results. The number of African Americans enrolling at UCLA is more than double the numbers from three years ago. It took a combination of outreach to increase the number of applicants, a lot of one-on-one involvement by African American alumni, and a mass mobilization to counter a lot of the misinformation getting passed around.

In all honesty, I don't know what the UC President's office does with outreach. At the campus level, the outreach is done by a combination of admissions office staff, faculty, students, and alumni. I know that the admissions staff isn't going anywhere -- the comprehensive review needs more screeners than ever. Budget cuts are going to hit in a lot of bad places, but I doubt that it will impact the campus outreach, given that so much of it is done by volunteers rather than paid staff.




None of these schools have a significant minority population, so just how does this raised the social mobility for them?

Social mobility accounts for the number of students receiving Pell Grants (which are income-based), and the students who are the first in their family to attend college. UCLA's underrepresented minority enrollment is around 27%. Maybe that's not where it needs to be given California's changing demographics, but I wouldn't call that insignificant either.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Do I remember? Oh, yeah. I remember how appalled I was visiting Florida in the late '50s by the "Whites only" sign over the water fountains. We didn't have those in Quebec.

I have never seen this in my life, and thank God. But my Godmother(who is african american) told me how it was, and how much it hurt to see it.


But I have always be doubtful about affirmative action. Fundamentally you can't discriminate in favor of one group of people without discriminating against another.

They were doing this before Affirmative Action was even heard of, and still doing now that it is here.


Yep, that simple. Does affirmative action tend to, as you say, "SOME sort of equality"? Perhaps some sort, but is it the sort we want? What we ought to want is not so some much material equality as fairness and equality of opportunity.

Blacks and Hispanics have moved out of poverty and isolation under affirmative action, and into the middle class since it started. More Blacks and Hispanics have received access to higher education because of it Before that they were relegated to being poor uneducated servants, gardners, and maids to the powers that be. While it hasn't acheive equality for all, it is far better than nothing IMO. Nothing means back to the way it was in the 30's, 40's and 50's. No thanks.


When a while kid with an 82% average is beat out by a black kid with a 67% average for a scarce university spot, you may say, well, the black kid didn't attend as good a high school. Maybe he didn't or maybe the white guy did well despite the fact that he too went to a not so great school; if the color rather the school is the criterion then the result is injustice. But in the instant, fix the damned high schools, so the choice doesn't have to be made.

In this country whites and asians have the highest average income, and blacks and hispanic are at the bottom. Racism and a poor education contributes to this. This country has a long history of discrimination based on color, so if the tables are turned, I am not going to cry one bit. Whites are so advantaged in this country there has to be some kind of balance for equality to exist. (no offense to white people, but it is true)

I am going to look in the Disney archives and see if I can find the video that 20/20 did on racism and finding a job. I am also going to see if I can locate the show that Oprah did on these two friends, one black guy, one white guy, both with the same education, working in the same field, both looking for cars, apartments, seeking help at the store, and qualifying for a loan. I am also going to find my copy of the documentary "The Color of Fear". If I can find any of these, I would love to send you a copy. I was so angry I cried on each of these stories. No, affirmative action needs to stay right where it is until it acheives the goal it was created for.

I have been on the Diversity team for Disney studios for about 10 years. If all things were ideal, then you thoughts would have a ton of merit. But the depth and breathe of this issue is so powerful and entrenched, you need something to keep the minorities from tearing this country apart for lack of oportunities. I am not willing to allow the powers that be to police themselves. We already have a history of what happens when they do.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Good point about the cost of community college units. That does present an obstacle, though I recall that fee waivers are still available to those students who really need them.

You are right, fee waivers are out there, but the process is so frustrating many just give up and walk away. They already have enough problems as it is, and having to go through a process that makes them feel like less of a human doesn't help much. This is what they(the students) have told me.


Also, college prep is not the same thing as AP/honors in the UC admissions parlance. Every high school out there has some form of college prep course work -- some of them are needed just for graduation. The shortage on a campus by campus basis has been with the AP/honors courses that count for the extra grade points. In Oakland, I recall that Skyline had a pretty solid AP program, and some students from neighboring schools went there to take their advanced classes. Oakland Tech is another school that I recall had some AP courses on campus. It's a sad situation when students have to jump through that many hoops in order to enroll in courses at their academic level, but this is less problematic than rural districts where the nearest school offering any AP courses might be more than 50 miles away.

When Oakland Unified went bankrupt, all of the college prep courses were yanked in budget cuts. Skyline USED to be a pretty darn good school until Oakland unified allowed students to move to schools out of their living area but within the district. When that happen, Skyline went downhill fast. Tech has also gone down the tubes unfortunately. That state of Oaklands schools make even the most hardened skeptics cry. Hence why the crime rate here is so high.




Actually, the number of slots has remained roughly the same across the UC, and even expanded due to the opening of the Merced campus. The real problem is that the number of applicants has soared over the past decade.

You are right brudda, and many have been pushed out of the system because there are so many applications, and not enough slots.


The UC Master Plan establishes that every student in California that graduates in the top 12.5% is eligible for a spot in the UC system -- but, it does not guarantee a spot at the most in-demand campuses (which are [in order of applicants] UCLA, UCSD, and Berkeley -- yes, UCSD attracts more applicants than Cal). California's population growth with the Millennial generation in particular has put that guarantee in peril, even with the opening of UC Merced.

It was already in peril when they instituted it, and they have not been all that successful in having enough slots for everybody that fits in the 12.5%. Some are getting left behind. If the guarantee doesn't extend to their flagship schools, then what is the point? Is the message that UC wants to send "You minority and poor people are allowed in our system, but not at our best campuses?"

Nice weather and nice beaches does tend to attract a large amount of students doesn't it? LOL


Yes, the UC and Cal State costs have soared over the past decade, but the UC still costs about 1/4 of what a private school requires. The need-based and merit-based scholarships are out there. Half the problem with the programs I participate in is getting eligible students to apply for them in the first place. In the inner city districts, the challenge is getting the word out to the students that these financial aid programs exist. The counselors at these schools are behind the 8-ball just getting their students to graduate. They just don't have the time to keep on top of all the scholarship programs for those few students who are a college track.

There is not enough money in the need and merit based system to support all of the students even if they did apply for them. You hit the nail on the head with your comments on inner city schools, which unfortunately most minorities go, and that is part of the problem right there.

Most all of the UC schools cost at least $15,000 a year to attend. It cost about the same to go to USC and the University of California at Irvine. It cost between $15-20,000 to go to all of the schools you named. It cost a little over $30,000 to go to USC(one of my boys goes there and I write the check) and upwards of $38,000 to go to a school like Stanford(my other son goes there). So the University system still is no bargain, and is becoming less and less of one yearly. Another part of the problem is that once the poor kids get in, they cannot afford to stay in, or are so dogged by the cost of going they have to work full time which kills their grades. Three of one of my sons friends are having this problem now. Raising tuition every year for the last seven years is pushing a UC education (no matter which school) further and further away from the poor and middle class(which often do not qualify for grants)


There's a lot of rumormongering out there, and it's crazy what students believe to be true. Of course, the things that students believe is downright rational compared to what I hear from the parents! :D

Can't argue with this! LOL



Under the comprehensive review guidelines, ALL of the slots take these other factors into consideration. The weighting might not be what some advocates would like, but this is big change from how Cal and UCLA had been conducting the admissions reviews.

Unfortunately this big change is not enough IMO. When you see minority enrollment drop like you have seen at Cal, then there is a problem.




She's not quoting the exact figures then. I get an outreach orientation from the UCLA admissions office every year, and they go over the updated student stats. This is the latest enrollment breakdown straight from the Chancellor's office.

http://www.magazine.ucla.edu/exclusives/2008_freshmen-enrollment/

I think she is quoting campus wide all students, not just the freshman class. Parsing it down to just the incoming freshman can tilt the stat's in a direction that does not really reflect reality overall.


According to the linked article, half of the African American students offered admission by UCLA for the Fall 08 quarter enrolled at the university. That 50% take-rate among AA's is higher than the 40% take-rate among all students.

If this study is more than two years old, then it's way outdated, because that was when UCLA mobilized its current outreach program.

The linked article does not provide a number for African American students, so half is pretty meaningless without some context. What about overall AA or latino enrollment? That is what I am interested in.

It was compiled over the last 10 years, and completed last year. I do not think her study was just limit to new enrollment, that was part of the picture. She was looking at overall enrollment as part of a larger picture. I know that historically black colleges in the south have seen huge jumps in enrollment from african american students from California. I have seen news stories on CNN and BET about this. My brothers daughter could have gone to Cal, but chose Xavier College in New Oleans instead. I was really surprised she wanted to go to an all black college, she is latino! (I say good for her, and she loves the school!) I could give many more examples of this right in my own world. Jackie pointed this out in her survey. Black kids post 209 are heading towards traditionally black colleges in huge numbers, numbers far larger than pre 209. Another point she raised is that latinos are also becoming a significant presence on traditionally black college campuses as well, as these colleges are aggressively pursuing them. (I could almost recite her entire presentation, I used to be her audio/video guy during her many conferences and symposiums).


Actually, with UCLA at least, their outreach has produced results. The number of African Americans enrolling at UCLA is more than double the numbers from three years ago. It took a combination of outreach to increase the number of applicants, a lot of one-on-one involvement by African American alumni, and a mass mobilization to counter a lot of the misinformation getting passed around.

Once again, this is one campus of ten in the system. Overall enrollment provides a far better picture of success, than freshman enrollment which could peak or sink on any given year. Year to year data is even better.


In all honesty, I don't know what the UC President's office does with outreach. At the campus level, the outreach is done by a combination of admissions office staff, faculty, students, and alumni. I know that the admissions staff isn't going anywhere -- the comprehensive review needs more screeners than ever. Budget cuts are going to hit in a lot of bad places, but I doubt that it will impact the campus outreach, given that so much of it is done by volunteers rather than paid staff.

The last set of budget cuts did impact outreach at the campus level. I remember that because I had a part time job at UCLA in their audio/visual department back in the late nineties. The office of the president gives the campuses their marching orders basically, so there is going to be some impact at the campus level surely. They are the center of the universe in terms of policy, so when the regents decided to kill 80% of the jobs in that department, I have some serious doubts about their committment to outreach. There are some jobs that volunteers cannot do.


Social mobility accounts for the number of students receiving Pell Grants (which are income-based), and the students who are the first in their family to attend college. UCLA's underrepresented minority enrollment is around 27%. Maybe that's not where it needs to be given California's changing demographics, but I wouldn't call that insignificant either.

UCLA may be a beacon of the UC system, but when you combine all of the campuses together, the number is no where near 27%. That is according to the figures Jackie was quoting to me.

Ahhhhh, I see ya bum!! Defending your alma mater. USC still rules big dawg, but ya bruddah shows you some love anyway. LOLOL

We have just derailed the hell out of this post.......slips out the side door.

[Feanor]

...
Blacks and Hispanics have moved out of poverty and isolation under affirmative action, and into the middle class since it started. More Blacks and Hispanics have received access to higher education because of it Before that they were relegated to being poor uneducated servants, gardners, and maids to the powers that be. While it hasn't acheive equality for all, it is far better than nothing IMO. Nothing means back to the way it was in the 30's, 40's and 50's. No thanks.

Perhaps you give too little credit to the personal efforts of Blacks and Hispanics ( ... I thought they preferred 'Latino' these days). The case of Asians enjoying higher incomes, as you mention, is due to a culture that values education, initiative, and hard work. Perhaps the aforementioned groups are learning these habits too. In any case there is now no danger of sliding back to sort of racism of the '50s.

Personally as very ordinary white person of very modest means who has many more poor white relatives than wealthy one, I deeply resent the assertion that (all) whites are privileged. I have seen no sign of it my personal life. Throughout much of U.S. poor Whites still out number the poor of other races.

You are living in the past, Sir T. The enemy for the poor and middle classes of the U.S. and other western countries is globalization and classism, not racism. Sure, vestiges of racism remain; sure, it's still a bad thing. But the really bad thing is that it blinds Americans to more contemporary problems.

The company I work for, like most large companies today, not racist. They want skilled workers and want them cheap. Their solutions are (1) send work packages offshore, principally to Indian, and (2) bring foreign, temporary workers onshore, again principally from Indian. (Those lucky Indians speak English.) The big factor about these folks isn't that they aren't White, (who cares? certainly not the Company), but that they aren't North American and work for much less than NA wages.

These global workers are as deserving of a break as resident minorities; their beginning to get it and the trend will continue. As a person who still has a racially oriented attitude you ought to understand that this global competition will retard the further
advancement of Blacks and Latinos in the U.S. The bigger problem will be the affect the poor and middle class regardless of race while having little effect of on the very rich. However I'll grant that one coincidental outcome of the impoverishment of poor & middle classes might be a resurgence of racism, with all races resenting whatever advantage, real or imagined, that another race might have.

[Ajani]

Perhaps you give too little credit to the personal efforts of Blacks and Hispanics ( ... I thought they preferred 'Latino' these days). The case of Asians enjoying higher incomes, as you mention, is due to a culture that values education, initiative, and hard work. Perhaps the aforementioned groups are learning these habits too. In any case there is now no danger of sliding back to sort of racism of the '50s.

Personally as very ordinary white person of very modest means who has many more poor white relatives than wealthy one, I deeply resent the assertion that (all) whites are privileged. I have seen no sign of it my personal life. Throughout much of U.S. poor Whites still out number the poor of other races.

You are living in the past, Sir T. The enemy for the poor and middle classes of the U.S. and other western countries is globalization and classism, not racism. Sure, vestiges of racism remain; sure, it's still a bad thing. But the really bad thing is that it blinds Americans to more contemporary problems.

The company I work for, like most large companies today, not racist. They want skilled workers and want them cheap. Their solutions are (1) send work packages offshore, principally to Indian, and (2) bring foreign, temporary workers onshore, again principally from Indian. (Those lucky Indians speak English.) The big factor about these folks isn't that they aren't White, (who cares? certainly not the Company), but that they aren't North American and work for much less than NA wages.

These global workers are as deserving of a break as resident minorities; their beginning to get it and the trend will continue. As a person who still has a racially oriented attitude you ought to understand that this global competition will retard the further
advancement of Blacks and Latinos in the U.S. The bigger problem will be the affect the poor and middle class regardless of race while having little effect of on the very rich. However I'll grant that one coincidental outcome of the impoverishment of poor & middle classes might be a resurgence of racism, with all races resenting whatever advantage, real or imagined, that another race might have.

I Agree...

I think that while racism still does and probably always will exist to some extent, I don't believe it is the major source of problems for minorities in North America. Classism is a much bigger issue... and confusing class prejudice with Racism is a major problem in the African American and Latino communities... Crying racism when that is not the real problem creates a lack of sympathy to your plight. It means that people ignore you as being someone who wants a free handout or lives in the past, rather than someone who has legitimate concerns.

When Kanye West made his statement after Katrina that "The President doesn't care about black people" it was flat out wrong... As has been said before in this thread: The President doesn't show enough (any) concern for poor people... He likes rich people regardless of color...

The best thing about the US is the American dream... the idea that you can start off a poor immigrant, knowing no-one and with nothing to your name and with hard work and perseverance end up rich and powerful... The problem is that this is also one of the worst things about America... because it tends to lead to the belief that anyone who hasn't made it in America is either stupid or lazy and deserves to be poor.... this is where the Class prejudice comes in...

Some other small issues I want to address:

The wealth of the Asian population is mostly derived from a different culture and approach to work... Simple exampe: Go to an asian store/restaurant and note how many asian families live directly above or in the back of the store... they work and live as a family unit and combine their wealth... that ensures success and money for later generations... Look at how many Indian families live in a large 'family house'... where grandparents, parents and children all live together... When the sons get married, they bring their wives to live in the family house... They combine their income and create family wealth... Other races/cultures (even when they live in the same house) don't tend to create family wealth and do business together... usually the aim is to make enough money individually to move out on your own... start your own family... and consequently, split the money...

Also, while the Prisons are clearly over-populated with Blacks, the community in America needs to help itself... 1) Don't commit crime and then complain that the police target your crime the most... seriously, you are still a criminal... since you know that you are likely to get the worst sentence possible, then just avoid the damn crime... 2) Don't dress/act like a damn thug and then be pissed off that people are afraid of you and the police harass you... The thug/gangsta culture is not helping to elevate your status in the eyes of anyone... Note: I enjoy my gangsta rap as much as the next young black male, but I have no desire to be or look like a rapper...

So no, I don't believe in further affirmative action (based on race anyway)... I would prefer to see it based on income... Special emphasis put on increasing the opportunity for kids from poorer communities to get good education and into good colleges... I would rather the focus of these surveys be on the number of enrolled students with average houshold income of x dollars rather than based on Black, Latino, White, Asian etc...

[Woochifer]

You are right, fee waivers are out there, but the process is so frustrating many just give up and walk away. They already have enough problems as it is, and having to go through a process that makes them feel like less of a human doesn't help much. This is what they(the students) have told me.

Again, that's related to students not taking advantage of opportunities that already exist. You can say that the process is demeaning, but you can't make the argument that it's an insurmountable obstacle. With the scholarship program that I volunteer for, it's a source of neverending frustration that so many students don't bother to fill out the applications for awards that start at $4,000 and go all the way up to $15,000. For the students out in the suburban districts or at elite public magnet schools like Lowell HS in San Francisco, it's almost a given that the top students will apply for the scholies. It's just a different mindset, even though Lowell draws plenty of students from SF's poorer neighborhoods.


When Oakland Unified went bankrupt, all of the college prep courses were yanked in budget cuts. Skyline USED to be a pretty darn good school until Oakland unified allowed students to move to schools out of their living area but within the district. When that happen, Skyline went downhill fast. Tech has also gone down the tubes unfortunately. That state of Oaklands schools make even the most hardened skeptics cry. Hence why the crime rate here is so high.

I doubt that those schools dropped their college prep classes, since many of them are required for high school graduation. But, if the AP/honors programs got cut back that's very sad to hear. My former coworker went to Skyline during the early-90s, and went through a pretty solid curriculum. Her daughter now goes to a 6-12 charter school in Oakland that has an insanely demanding academic program. It's fairly new, so we'll see how it goes later, but the entire curriculum there is geared around college prep work beginning with 6th grade.


You are right brudda, and many have been pushed out of the system because there are so many applications, and not enough slots.

It's also the high cost of the privates that have pushed more applicants to the UC. Plus, it's the herd mentality that now drives students to apply to more than 10 schools at a time.


It was already in peril when they instituted it, and they have not been all that successful in having enough slots for everybody that fits in the 12.5%. Some are getting left behind. If the guarantee doesn't extend to their flagship schools, then what is the point? Is the message that UC wants to send "You minority and poor people are allowed in our system, but not at our best campuses?"

That master plan dates back to 1960 when Cali was planning for the future. It still guarantees a spot to any eligible student, but if you have upwards of 54,000 applicants to UCLA, there's just no way to accommodate everybody at that campus. People from all races and all backgrounds get turned down -- about 80% of all UCLA applicants don't get accepted. The challenge is with ensuring that the campus will have a diverse student body, and with the rumors getting passed around, a big challenge is simply ensuring that minority students apply to the UC in the first place.


Nice weather and nice beaches does tend to attract a large amount of students doesn't it? LOL

That explains why Santa Barbara is now the 4th most popular UC campus -- campus on the beach, coeds going to class in bikinis, parties in Isla Vista (okay, and a few Nobel laureates on faculty) ... yuh, that doesn't hurt recruiting! :cool:


There is not enough money in the need and merit based system to support all of the students even if they did apply for them. You hit the nail on the head with your comments on inner city schools, which unfortunately most minorities go, and that is part of the problem right there.

I'd like for the situation to get to a point where we're worrying about the programs running out of money. But, right now with some of the programs I'm familiar with, the issue is simply getting students, and those from disadvantaged backgrounds in particular, to apply. A lot of seed money's just sitting there and rolling over to the next year.


Most all of the UC schools cost at least $15,000 a year to attend. It cost about the same to go to USC and the University of California at Irvine. It cost between $15-20,000 to go to all of the schools you named. It cost a little over $30,000 to go to USC(one of my boys goes there and I write the check) and upwards of $38,000 to go to a school like Stanford(my other son goes there).

If you're just factoring in the tuition/fees, the UC is NOT nearly the same as a private school. The annual fees at the UC range from about $7,000 to $9,000 ($15,000 only applies to certain graduate programs like Law, Business and Medicine/Dentistry). Two years ago, the fees alone for USC (http://www.usc.edu/dept/publications/cat2006/tuition/) were already over $33,000 -- no way UCI costs that much. Even after including living expenses, the UC system still costs less than half of what a private school would require.


Another part of the problem is that once the poor kids get in, they cannot afford to stay in, or are so dogged by the cost of going they have to work full time which kills their grades. Three of one of my sons friends are having this problem now. Raising tuition every year for the last seven years is pushing a UC education (no matter which school) further and further away from the poor and middle class(which often do not qualify for grants)

Even with the cost increases though, the systemwide retention rate has gone up from about 60% to about 80% over the past 20 years. I know that at UCLA, close to 40% of the undergrads receive Pell grants.


Unfortunately this big change is not enough IMO. When you see minority enrollment drop like you have seen at Cal, then there is a problem.

Compared to where things were after 209 passed, the most recent enrollments are a huge improvement.


I think she is quoting campus wide all students, not just the freshman class. Parsing it down to just the incoming freshman can tilt the stat's in a direction that does not really reflect reality overall.

It's not parsing, since the freshman class data is tracked and consistently comparable from year to year. Add a four-year trend together, and you have a pretty close representation of the current enrollment picture. Latino enrollment at UCLA, no matter how you cut it, was never close to 3%. The students from LA Unified alone (more than half of whom are Latino) will far exceed 3% of the student body easily. The overall reality is actually closer to the freshman class data, because the post-209 dropoff in Latino enrollment was never as steep as it was with African Americans and it started trending upward not long thereafter. The current Latino enrollment trends closer to the pre-209 levels, while the African American enrollment still has a long way to go.


The linked article does not provide a number for African American students, so half is pretty meaningless without some context. What about overall AA or latino enrollment? That is what I am interested in.

Actually it does, the number enrolled is 233. Still a far cry from the 400-500 that would represent the entering classes when I was there, but a huge improvement from the ~100 that enrolled three years ago.

Your point was that admitted African American students are not choosing to attend the UC. That ~50% take-rate is just pointing out that African Americans who get into UCLA at least are choosing to enroll at a higher rate than the admitted students as a whole.


It was compiled over the last 10 years, and completed last year. I do not think her study was just limit to new enrollment, that was part of the picture. She was looking at overall enrollment as part of a larger picture. I know that historically black colleges in the south have seen huge jumps in enrollment from african american students from California. I have seen news stories on CNN and BET about this. My brothers daughter could have gone to Cal, but chose Xavier College in New Oleans instead. I was really surprised she wanted to go to an all black college, she is latino! (I say good for her, and she loves the school!) I could give many more examples of this right in my own world. Jackie pointed this out in her survey. Black kids post 209 are heading towards traditionally black colleges in huge numbers, numbers far larger than pre 209. Another point she raised is that latinos are also becoming a significant presence on traditionally black college campuses as well, as these colleges are aggressively pursuing them. (I could almost recite her entire presentation, I used to be her audio/video guy during her many conferences and symposiums).

Can't argue with that. And that's part of the reason why I said that African American enrollment won't ever recover to the pre-209 levels -- because other schools have stepped up their recruitment of the top African American students. Sad to see the campus that symbolized inclusion for African American pioneers like Ralph Bunche, Jackie Robinson, Tom Bradley, and Arthur Ashe now perceived as a symbol for exclusion.


Once again, this is one campus of ten in the system. Overall enrollment provides a far better picture of success, than freshman enrollment which could peak or sink on any given year. Year to year data is even better.

But, the biggest dropoffs in minority enrollment occurred at UCLA and Berkeley. The current review process has only been in place for three years at Berkeley. I don't know their enrollment stats, but UCLA would not have implemented Berkeley's review process if it was not having an impact. (And historically, UCLA has had a somewhat different admissions process from Berkeley's more technocratic and by-the-numbers approach) The year-to-year data is out there. I know that more than doubling the African American enrollment over three years at UCLA is an encouraging sign, but no one's saying that the job is done.


The last set of budget cuts did impact outreach at the campus level. I remember that because I had a part time job at UCLA in their audio/visual department back in the late nineties. The office of the president gives the campuses their marching orders basically, so there is going to be some impact at the campus level surely. They are the center of the universe in terms of policy, so when the regents decided to kill 80% of the jobs in that department, I have some serious doubts about their committment to outreach. There are some jobs that volunteers cannot do.

Like I said, I don't know the role of the President's office. The efforts that I participated in were coordinated at campus staff level, and included faculty, students, and alumni. Even if 80% of the positions get cut at the President's office, I doubt that will have a corresponding 80% dropoff in the outreach initiatives.


UCLA may be a beacon of the UC system, but when you combine all of the campuses together, the number is no where near 27%. That is according to the figures Jackie was quoting to me.

And I have my questions about those figures. I'm most familiar with the UCLA enrollment, because I get briefed on it every year. But, if the issue is with the difficulty of minority candidates getting into the two flagship campuses, then wouldn't the other less impacted campuses presumably see increases in minority enrollment?


Ahhhhh, I see ya bum!! Defending your alma mater. USC still rules big dawg, but ya bruddah shows you some love anyway. LOLOL

We have just derailed the hell out of this post.......slips out the side door.

:dita:

[Rich-n-Texas]

So how much IS a gallon of gas in Albany Mr. T?

[Woochifer]

I Agree...

I think that while racism still does and probably always will exist to some extent, I don't believe it is the major source of problems for minorities in North America. Classism is a much bigger issue... and confusing class prejudice with Racism is a major problem in the African American and Latino communities... Crying racism when that is not the real problem creates a lack of sympathy to your plight. It means that people ignore you as being someone who wants a free handout or lives in the past, rather than someone who has legitimate concerns.

Sorry, but while I agree that race is declining in significance, it continues to be a significant factor. It's not all about class. People who "cry racism" might have a bit more first hand experience than you're giving them credit for. While I think there is an element of crying wolf here, I've also seen enough in my lifetime to know that telling people that racism is not a major problem won't convince them when their own experiences say otherwise.


When Kanye West made his statement after Katrina that "The President doesn't care about black people" it was flat out wrong... As has been said before in this thread: The President doesn't show enough (any) concern for poor people... He likes rich people regardless of color...

The post-Katrina recovery in New Orleans, if anything, has proven Kanye West correct.


The best thing about the US is the American dream... the idea that you can start off a poor immigrant, knowing no-one and with nothing to your name and with hard work and perseverance end up rich and powerful... The problem is that this is also one of the worst things about America... because it tends to lead to the belief that anyone who hasn't made it in America is either stupid or lazy and deserves to be poor.... this is where the Class prejudice comes in...

Some other small issues I want to address:

The wealth of the Asian population is mostly derived from a different culture and approach to work... Simple exampe: Go to an asian store/restaurant and note how many asian families live directly above or in the back of the store... they work and live as a family unit and combine their wealth... that ensures success and money for later generations... Look at how many Indian families live in a large 'family house'... where grandparents, parents and children all live together... When the sons get married, they bring their wives to live in the family house... They combine their income and create family wealth... Other races/cultures (even when they live in the same house) don't tend to create family wealth and do business together... usually the aim is to make enough money individually to move out on your own... start your own family... and consequently, split the money...

The Asian example is one of the more egregious wedges that have been used against African Americans and Latinos. The thing to keep in mind here is that Asians, as a group, are the single most educated race cohort in the U.S. All of those Asian families cramming into the backs of those businesses? Most of the parents are college educated, and came here with a college education. Same goes with many of the busboys and dishwashers that work in the kitchens.

This whole "model minority" myth emerged after the 1964 immigration reform, which drastically increased the immigration quotas from Asia. Those who got the green cards were the elites, the most educated citizens. They might have been engineers and nurses back in Asia, but once they landed in the U.S., they often wound up taking jobs at the post office or in retail stores or restaurants. Asians, as a group, might have a high average income. But, a lot of that was due to more workers per household. And if you consider the education level of Asians, their income is way under what a white household with comparable education earns.

Over the last 20+ years, this has now evolved into Asian immigrants coming into the U.S. not only with the higher education pedigree, but bringing boatloads of money with them as well. They are no longer chasing an American dream -- they view the U.S. as another investment opportunity to add to their portfolio.

In social research, the single most significant correlation in determining upward mobility is the education level of the parents. Asians have a component of upward mobility because their background already puts them a leg up.

Also consider that the Hmong, Laotians, and Cambodians have some of the highest poverty rates of any racial/ethnic group. No surprise that you find that the immigrant parents also came to the U.S. (many of them as refugees) with relatively low education levels.


Also, while the Prisons are clearly over-populated with Blacks, the community in America needs to help itself... 1) Don't commit crime and then complain that the police target your crime the most... seriously, you are still a criminal... since you know that you are likely to get the worst sentence possible, then just avoid the damn crime... 2) Don't dress/act like a damn thug and then be pissed off that people are afraid of you and the police harass you... The thug/gangsta culture is not helping to elevate your status in the eyes of anyone... Note: I enjoy my gangsta rap as much as the next young black male, but I have no desire to be or look like a rapper...

At the same time, you might want to also tell the authorities to stop racial profiling. I can tell you that every male African American student I knew in grad school at Berkeley, at some point, has gotten harassed by the cops. One of them grew up in Virginia, and got so tired of getting pulled aside and questioned by the police, that he began dressing ultra preppy. It looked almost ridiculous, but at least it reduced the frequency of harassment (though it didn't stop entirely).

On his way to class, another classmate got pinned against the wall with two guns pointed at his face, while getting strip searched. Of course, they found nothing and had to let him go. This guy was a Ph.D. candidate with a clean record, and one of the smartest and nicest people I knew. His only fault was being born with a mean looking face and a 6'6" frame, oh and a dark hued skin tone. And no, he did not dress like a gangsta, unless you think that Berkeley sweatshirts and blue jeans are the new gangbanger's gear.


So no, I don't believe in further affirmative action (based on race anyway)... I would prefer to see it based on income... Special emphasis put on increasing the opportunity for kids from poorer communities to get good education and into good colleges... I would rather the focus of these surveys be on the number of enrolled students with average houshold income of x dollars rather than based on Black, Latino, White, Asian etc...

The problem I have with the assault on affirmative action is that it dances around the direct point that race remains a major issue. By eliminating it altogether, it's nothing more than an acceptance and reinforcement of the status quo, and a belief that racism has absolutely no effect on social mobility. You don't see a rush by private industry or private universities to junk their affirmative action programs, because they understand you have to consider race among many many other factors.

One of my college professors was often hired by Fortune 500 companies to evaluate their hiring practices. For these companies, she and her research staff would fill out job applications with some applications including names or code language or organizational affiliations that would fit certain racial stereotypes. These were race blind applications, yet the "minority" candidate more often than not would get fewer call backs and interviews than a "white" candidate with equivalent or even inferior credentials. And this pattern repeated itself time after time. This just demonstrates that even if you make a process race blind, it does nothing more than reinforce the status quo.

And it points out why so many friends of mine used to write two versions of their resume -- the real one that has all of their affiliations, jobs, and interests; and the "whitewashed" one that eliminates any references that might reveal their racial/ethnic background.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Perhaps you give too little credit to the personal efforts of Blacks and Hispanics ( ... I thought they preferred 'Latino' these days). The case of Asians enjoying higher incomes, as you mention, is due to a culture that values education, initiative, and hard work. Perhaps the aforementioned groups are learning these habits too. In any case there is now no danger of sliding back to sort of racism of the '50s.

I do not think I was trying to make that point. However things do not have to be as bad as they where in the 50's to have a profound negative impact on minorities.


Personally as very ordinary white person of very modest means who has many more poor white relatives than wealthy one, I deeply resent the assertion that (all) whites are privileged. I have seen no sign of it my personal life. Throughout much of U.S. poor Whites still out number the poor of other races.

Of course you resent it, just like I resent your downplaying of racism in general. You live in Canada which does not have the racial history of this country. You country was not founded and built on racism, this one is. Nobody is saying ALL whites are priviledged, but in this country, whites are not discriminated against in jobs, housing, and education.

Whites outnumber everyone here, so of course there are more poor white people than anyone else. But when you break it down as a percentage of population, blacks and Latino finish at the bottom of the ladder in average income. White males are paid more than black males doing the same job, these are facts.


You are living in the past, Sir T. The enemy for the poor and middle classes of the U.S. and other western countries is globalization and classism, not racism. Sure, vestiges of racism remain; sure, it's still a bad thing. But the really bad thing is that it blinds Americans to more contemporary problems.

Feanor you are not living in MY reality. Racism is not in the past, and your comments to such are really freakin insulting, and would be insulting to any person of color. Before you make such profoundly ignorant statements, you need to walk a mile in my shoes, or in the shoes of a black male or any black person. For people of color specifically, racism is still a HUGE issue, and classism just makes it worse. But to say one issue is insignificant and another prevelent ignores the fact that you are not a person of color, and just do not know the issues that affect them.


The company I work for, like most large companies today, not racist. They want skilled workers and want them cheap. Their solutions are (1) send work packages offshore, principally to Indian, and (2) bring foreign, temporary workers onshore, again principally from Indian. (Those lucky Indians speak English.) The big factor about these folks isn't that they aren't White, (who cares? certainly not the Company), but that they aren't North American and work for much less than NA wages.

That is your company, and your experience. Here, I just read that a jewelry store just settled a discrimination lawsuit for 1 million dollars because a Indian woman who was laid off from this company was returning to work, and had a traditional scarf on her head as she came in the office to fill out her paperwork. When the person hiring saw her(he was a white male) he said aloud "Not one of these people again", and then decided not to hire her. Or how about the black guy who won a $500,000 judgment against a company because a white guy in his shop was singing anti-black hate rap out loud, and no matter how many times he asked the guy to stop, he refused. He was written up, and later fired because he complained to management about it. I could go on with story after story on this issue.

Your perspective as a non person of color is somewhat different from the perspective of people of color.


These global workers are as deserving of a break as resident minorities; their beginning to get it and the trend will continue. As a person who still has a racially oriented attitude you ought to understand that this global competition will retard the further
advancement of Blacks and Latinos in the U.S. The bigger problem will be the affect the poor and middle class regardless of race while having little effect of on the very rich. However I'll grant that one coincidental outcome of the impoverishment of poor & middle classes might be a resurgence of racism, with all races resenting whatever advantage, real or imagined, that another race might have.

Feanor, I do not have a racially oriented attitude, I am racially aware of the reality of my environment. There is a difference between the two. I have been telling the students I mentor that their competition is global, and they have to do alot more to compete than I had to. This is something that is driven home to them when they go to the store and see most all of the products are Chinese manufactured.

I am going to offer this to you. If you lived in this country, and had the opportunity to change races and experience what it is to be a person of color, your perspective would be somewhat different. This experiment has been tried in a television series produced Ice Cube for ABC. The participants 2 white males and 2 females were made up to look black, and asked to live that way in public for 7 days. To say the experience changed their life would be an understatement I am sure. Fundamentally whites, and people of color have very different perspectives about this country. The Color of Fear is pretty clear in pointing that out.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So how much IS a gallon of gas in Albany Mr. T?

The Shell station on the corner of Buchanan and San Pablo sits proudly at $4.86 a gallon. The Arco accross the street from it sits at $4.70 a gallon.

[GMichael]

The Shell station on the corner of Buchanan and San Pablo sits proudly at $4.86 a gallon. The Arco accross the street from it sits at $4.70 a gallon.

I can get gas in NJ for 3.93/gal. In PA it's 4.07/gal. In NY it's 4.47/gal. It's good to live so close to the tri-state corner.

[Woochifer]

Perhaps you give too little credit to the personal efforts of Blacks and Hispanics ( ... I thought they preferred 'Latino' these days). The case of Asians enjoying higher incomes, as you mention, is due to a culture that values education, initiative, and hard work. Perhaps the aforementioned groups are learning these habits too. In any case there is now no danger of sliding back to sort of racism of the '50s.

It's also because Asians, as a group, have the highest aggregate education of any racial group. Asian immigrants come here with an above average education level, which in turn, strongly correlates with educated kids. It's not all about culture. It's also about achievement, and Asian immigrants generally come here with a lot more a few dollars in their pocket and a willingness to work hard.

But, using the Asian example as a wedge against Latinos and African Americans ignores the fact that Asian Americans earn less than white Americans with comparable educational levels. Asian Americans have the highest average household income of any ethnic/racial group simply because they also have the highest average educational attainment, but they also have an above average number of workers per household (which also raises the household income). But, all things considered, their average income is actually below where it should be.

It also ignores the poverty levels with Laotians and Cambodians, which rank among the highest of any ethnic group. It's not coincidental that these immigrants, as a group, came to the U.S. with below average educational achievement.

Racism has many angles to it. Just because "separate but equal" got struck down, and the right to vote is now a part of the Constitution, does not mean that there aren't other institutional barriers that have an inherently racist effect. Just as an example, many universities still have legacy provisions in place, which gives preference to children of alumni. Considering that many universities only began integrating in the early-1970s, that means that you still have a setup that inherently reinforces a status quo that dates back to "white only" facilities, since the number of white alumni would disproportionately outnumber alumni from racial/ethnic groups that were historically excluded from these universities.

[Woochifer]

Oh, and on the subject of gas ... I'll pass! :cool:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Oh, and on the subject of gas ... I'll pass! :cool:

I thought that was JSE's job? Now you are getting into the game? This can't be good.....

[Woochifer]

I thought that was JSE's job? Now you are getting into the game? This can't be good.....

He's been negligent with the fart jokes as of late, and I dined at Taco Bell for lunch. Put that together with a low-hanging-fruit punch line like "LET'S TALK ABOUT GAS!" and well, you gots what you gots! :prrr:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sorry, but while I agree that race is declining in significance, it continues to be a significant factor. It's not all about class. People who "cry racism" might have a bit more first hand experience than you're giving them credit for. While I think there is an element of crying wolf here, I've also seen enough in my lifetime to know that telling people that racism is not a major problem won't convince them when their own experiences say otherwise.

I think it is declining in significance to some, but not to others. To the ones that it is declining in significance, its more a "I do not want to deal with it" kind of thing. To Latino's it is perceived as HUGE, and to blacks as well. After the immigration debacle, many Latino's believe that racism is the reason a comprehensive bill could not be struck. I think that element is there, but I remind my Latino bros and sisters that entering this country without a visa or green card is illegal, no matter what your financial situation is in Mexico. And boy do I agree with you on the wolf crying. Its a deflection tool design to hide incompetence. IMO while I do agree that classism exist big time, I think it is being used to push the racism argument off the table so it does not have to be dealt with.




The post-Katrina recovery in New Orleans, if anything, has proven Kanye West correct.

+10


The Asian example is one of the more egregious wedges that have been used against African Americans and Latinos. The thing to keep in mind here is that Asians, as a group, are the single most educated race cohort in the U.S. All of those Asian families cramming into the backs of those businesses? Most of the parents are college educated, and came here with a college education. Same goes with many of the busboys and dishwashers that work in the kitchens.

The old divide and conquer has been effectively used to get minorities to fight each other which keeps them distracted enough to keep the status quo intact, and the whole racism issue on the back burner. Its been used for a long time, and one very prominent Senator Joseph Biden mentioned it in a interview during the height of the immigration battle.


This whole "model minority" myth emerged after the 1964 immigration reform, which drastically increased the immigration quotas from Asia. Those who got the green cards were the elites, the most educated citizens. They might have been engineers and nurses back in Asia, but once they landed in the U.S., they often wound up taking jobs at the post office or in retail stores or restaurants. Asians, as a group, might have a high average income. But, a lot of that was due to more workers per household. And if you consider the education level of Asians, their income is way under what a white household with comparable education earns.

This I absolutely agree with.


Over the last 20+ years, this has now evolved into Asian immigrants coming into the U.S. not only with the higher education pedigree, but bringing boatloads of money with them as well. They are no longer chasing an American dream -- they view the U.S. as another investment opportunity to add to their portfolio.

This has really accelerated up in the last ten years as China ecomomy booms.


In social research, the single most significant correlation in determining upward mobility is the education level of the parents. Asians have a component of upward mobility because their background already puts them a leg up.

And this is where latino's and blacks are behind. Quite a few latino and black parents do not have a college degree, so upward mobility is slow in coming, and very difficult to acheive. This is changing though.


Also consider that the Hmong, Laotians, and Cambodians have some of the highest poverty rates of any racial/ethnic group. No surprise that you find that the immigrant parents also came to the U.S. (many of them as refugees) with relatively low education levels.

And they fall into the same pit as Latinos and Blacks as a result.



At the same time, you might want to also tell the authorities to stop racial profiling. I can tell you that every male African American student I knew in grad school at Berkeley, at some point, has gotten harassed by the cops. One of them grew up in Virginia, and got so tired of getting pulled aside and questioned by the police, that he began dressing ultra preppy. It looked almost ridiculous, but at least it reduced the frequency of harassment (though it didn't stop entirely).

On his way to class, another classmate got pinned against the wall with two guns pointed at his face, while getting strip searched. Of course, they found nothing and had to let him go. This guy was a Ph.D. candidate with a clean record, and one of the smartest and nicest people I knew. His only fault was being born with a mean looking face and a 6'6" frame, oh and a dark hued skin tone. And no, he did not dress like a gangsta, unless you think that Berkeley sweatshirts and blue jeans are the new gangbanger's gear.

And this goes for Latino's as well. I can tell you a story of one young cuban/puerto rican guy coming home from the gym at 11:00pm on the coldest day in Los Angeles history. He hops into his brand new Honda Accord and get's one block before he is stopped by a two really cool white policemen(sarcasm off). Drivers license, proof of insurance and registration were handed over, they returned to their patrol car to check things out. A few minutes later the words all clear are easily heard, and the officers return back to the car and said "something is wrong with your registration" even after all clear was clearly heard. The policeman ask the young latin dude to get out of the car, and the latino dressed in short and a tank top ask "may I get my long coat, I am still in my gym clothes". The answer was no. That latino dude sat out in 27 degree whether on the curb in short pants and a tank top for 30 minutes until the policeman returned to say he could go. No ticket, no warning, no nothing. Needless to say the young Latino dude caught a serious case of the chills, and shoke violently all the way home. The next day he was sick as heck, and remained that way for more than a week. Needless to say, that young latino dude has a healthy disrespect for the LAPD.

That same young latino dude was stopped every other day for two weeks by a Beverly Hills cop, asked for his license, registration, and proof of insurance each time, and then let him go after wasting 20 minutes of his time. When the latino dude complained to the Beverly Hills police department, the officer stopped doing it. That young latin dude has always been a preppy dresser, so its not a gang dress thing either.

While it difficult for some folks to believe that officers harrass minorities, those are usually the people that really believe the cops are here to protect and serve. They are not the ones being harrassed or profiled.




The problem I have with the assault on affirmative action is that it dances around the direct point that race remains a major issue. By eliminating it altogether, it's nothing more than an acceptance and reinforcement of the status quo, and a belief that racism has absolutely no effect on social mobility. You don't see a rush by private industry or private universities to junk their affirmative action programs, because they understand you have to consider race among many many other factors.

Bingo!


One of my college professors was often hired by Fortune 500 companies to evaluate their hiring practices. For these companies, she and her research staff would fill out job applications with some applications including names or code language or organizational affiliations that would fit certain racial stereotypes. These were race blind applications, yet the "minority" candidate more often than not would get fewer call backs and interviews than a "white" candidate with equivalent or even inferior credentials. And this pattern repeated itself time after time. This just demonstrates that even if you make a process race blind, it does nothing more than reinforce the status quo.

And it points out why so many friends of mine used to write two versions of their resume -- the real one that has all of their affiliations, jobs, and interests; and the "whitewashed" one that eliminates any references that might reveal their racial/ethnic background.

I got another one for ya. That 20/20 special I spoke of earlier. They had ten African Americans, 5 men and 5 women, all with ethnic names(Auqanetta Jones, Ali Johnson etc). They sent out two resume's that were totally identical, but one had their original names, the other common american names such as Cathy Jones, and John Barnes etc. These resumes were sent out to 20 fortune five hundred companies at the same time. Every one of the resumes with the common non ethnic name got call backs, and the ones with the ethnic names did not. They repeated the experiment with another set of 10, and then another with the results being the same. They took the results of the experiments to these 20 companies and confronted them. Of course they went into denial that they were showing bias in hiring, but it is difficult to run away from the results.

While I understand classism exists, I think it is being used to paper over the racism issue so as to move it off the table, and not deal with it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

He's been negligent with the fart jokes as of late, and I dined at Taco Bell for lunch. Put that together with a low-hanging-fruit punch line like "LET'S TALK ABOUT GAS!" and well, you gots what you gots! :prrr:

Taco bell...........me loves Taco Bell.

[Woochifer]

Taco bell...........me loves Taco Bell.

Oh it's cheap, and pretty tasty going down. But, a couple of hours later I'm wonderin' WHY THE HELL DID I EAT THAT CRAP???? Yet, give me a couple of weeks and I'll have them bells going off in my head with visions of mexican pizzas and baja chalupas all over again! :mad2:

P.S. I'm actually more of Del Taco kinda guy, but there are only four of 'em in the entire Bay Area! And even though they had the most offensive Mexican stereotypes on a TV commercial since the demise of the Frito Bandito, I totally miss Naugles (now THAT was as good as fake-Mex gets, despite that Senor Naugles mascot)!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Taco bell...........me loves Taco Bell.
:rolleyes:
Good grief! Let's not get JSE started OKAY? The wind's been blowing up from the south 'round here these days! :nono:

[bobsticks]

Dammit!!! I had occasion this afternoon to make my way downtown to have an extra-special Sticksean come-apart on a lawyer who thought she was beating up and bullying one of my HR peeps when, in fact, the call had been mistakenly rerouted to me.

I threw down wit the sturm und drang but how cool would it have been to have had Taco Bell for lunch and left the tearfilled room with the waft of ground dog meat.

[thekid]

Going back to the education portion of this thread.......

Since most of the quality of your schools/school system are based on money raised by real estate taxes I think most of your discrepancies are more class/economic based rather than race based but to the degree the two often go hand it hand you can make the racism arguement.

IMO the single biggest effect on the quality of a child's education starts with the parents. How they perceive education and the emphasis they put on it can over come a lot of inequities in the system in terms of the fundamentals. Schools in affluent areas tend not to have crime and drug problems not because they are in affluent areas but because parents do not allow their kids to go to school with guns etc. Its the old saying "You can be poor but you don't have to act poor".

The biggest problem I have had with the direction of education in the last 20 years is the concept of a "magnet" school. These schools exist IMO because the school sytem has given up on the concept of a quality education for all kids and has decided that those lucky few who tested well back in the 3rd grade will be given the type of quality education we should expect all schools to provide. Most "magnet" schools are nothing more than places where the class sizes are kept at a reasonable number, the teaching staff is motivated to teach rather than just maintain order and the parents/students understand the importance of a good education. Sure some of them offer expanded curiculums and they have working computer labs but it is the atmosphere of learning that these schools have,not the equipment or curiculum that sets them apart.

[Feanor]

Taco bell...........me loves Taco Bell.

Dunno about State-side, but up here in the Great White North Taco Bell often shares a location with that grease monger, KFC, (Kentucy Fried Chicken).

Ohhh ... the heartburn! :mad5:

[Ajani]

Sorry, but while I agree that race is declining in significance, it continues to be a significant factor. It's not all about class. People who "cry racism" might have a bit more first hand experience than you're giving them credit for. While I think there is an element of crying wolf here, I've also seen enough in my lifetime to know that telling people that racism is not a major problem won't convince them when their own experiences say otherwise.



The post-Katrina recovery in New Orleans, if anything, has proven Kanye West correct.



The Asian example is one of the more egregious wedges that have been used against African Americans and Latinos. The thing to keep in mind here is that Asians, as a group, are the single most educated race cohort in the U.S. All of those Asian families cramming into the backs of those businesses? Most of the parents are college educated, and came here with a college education. Same goes with many of the busboys and dishwashers that work in the kitchens.

This whole "model minority" myth emerged after the 1964 immigration reform, which drastically increased the immigration quotas from Asia. Those who got the green cards were the elites, the most educated citizens. They might have been engineers and nurses back in Asia, but once they landed in the U.S., they often wound up taking jobs at the post office or in retail stores or restaurants. Asians, as a group, might have a high average income. But, a lot of that was due to more workers per household. And if you consider the education level of Asians, their income is way under what a white household with comparable education earns.

Over the last 20+ years, this has now evolved into Asian immigrants coming into the U.S. not only with the higher education pedigree, but bringing boatloads of money with them as well. They are no longer chasing an American dream -- they view the U.S. as another investment opportunity to add to their portfolio.

In social research, the single most significant correlation in determining upward mobility is the education level of the parents. Asians have a component of upward mobility because their background already puts them a leg up.

Also consider that the Hmong, Laotians, and Cambodians have some of the highest poverty rates of any racial/ethnic group. No surprise that you find that the immigrant parents also came to the U.S. (many of them as refugees) with relatively low education levels.



At the same time, you might want to also tell the authorities to stop racial profiling. I can tell you that every male African American student I knew in grad school at Berkeley, at some point, has gotten harassed by the cops. One of them grew up in Virginia, and got so tired of getting pulled aside and questioned by the police, that he began dressing ultra preppy. It looked almost ridiculous, but at least it reduced the frequency of harassment (though it didn't stop entirely).

On his way to class, another classmate got pinned against the wall with two guns pointed at his face, while getting strip searched. Of course, they found nothing and had to let him go. This guy was a Ph.D. candidate with a clean record, and one of the smartest and nicest people I knew. His only fault was being born with a mean looking face and a 6'6" frame, oh and a dark hued skin tone. And no, he did not dress like a gangsta, unless you think that Berkeley sweatshirts and blue jeans are the new gangbanger's gear.



The problem I have with the assault on affirmative action is that it dances around the direct point that race remains a major issue. By eliminating it altogether, it's nothing more than an acceptance and reinforcement of the status quo, and a belief that racism has absolutely no effect on social mobility. You don't see a rush by private industry or private universities to junk their affirmative action programs, because they understand you have to consider race among many many other factors.

One of my college professors was often hired by Fortune 500 companies to evaluate their hiring practices. For these companies, she and her research staff would fill out job applications with some applications including names or code language or organizational affiliations that would fit certain racial stereotypes. These were race blind applications, yet the "minority" candidate more often than not would get fewer call backs and interviews than a "white" candidate with equivalent or even inferior credentials. And this pattern repeated itself time after time. This just demonstrates that even if you make a process race blind, it does nothing more than reinforce the status quo.

And it points out why so many friends of mine used to write two versions of their resume -- the real one that has all of their affiliations, jobs, and interests; and the "whitewashed" one that eliminates any references that might reveal their racial/ethnic background.

Both you and Sir T make some excellent points regarding racism in America. As much as I hate to continue to hijack the gas thread, I feel compelled just to clarify a few points:

Just because I believe classism is the Most significant problem affecting minorites DOESN'T mean that I think that racism doesn't still exist or that it is insignificant... There are obvious cases of racism, whether through racial profiling and harassment by the police etc... but I just can't agree with the idea that just about any class issue is really just covert racism... eg the GPA requirement is raised to keep black people poor... We have those EXACT same problems in majority Black countries (such as Jamaica, where I grew up).... The best schools kept requiring higher and higher grades to get in and became more expensive... thus making it harder for the poor to get a good education, hence the status quo remains the same... So I will never agree with the notion that a problem faced in so many other places in the world, is about classism (or maybe even just economics - demand and supply) in those countries but is racism in America... That honestly sounds like a case of crying wolf to me...

Another issue is that nothing seems to be treated as an isolated incident anymore... Simple example: If 2 white LAPD Cops harass a black student, the black community decides that this is obvious proof that the LAPD is racist! It doesn't matter if only 2 of 60 white cops were racist.. unless every white cop in the LAPD immediately comes out denouncing the action and is ready to help execute the 2 offenders, then the LAPD is clearly a front for the KKK... Yes, sometimes problems go deeper than just offenders... but I find the jump to major racist conspiracy to be unwarranted most of the time...

Also, I guess I fall more into the Obama approach to race relations than that of black activists... I don't believe that having everyone on edge about race relations will improve the situation... I honestly believe that race relations will only improve when we look past skin color and just treat everyone the same.. giving minorities special treatment may bring short term gains to their communities, but will only build up resentment towards them by the majority who are not being given special treatment... Thus you create even more hatred in the long run...

Finally, I believe that something must be done to improve the situation for minorities, but not further affirmative action (AA). AA is essentially giving preference to a group of people based solely on their race... I believe the correct term to describe giving preference to someone based on race is Racism. So no I can't support that. However, things like free education up to at least high school and cheap (preferably free) college education for all Americans is the way to improve the situations for minorities while still being fair to everyone else. IMHO, Less money on war and more money on education is what America needs....

Oh and to bring this back to Gas price... maybe the Government should stop blaming Oil Companies for having record profits and start using some of their record gas taxes to improve the quality of education in poor communities!

[Feanor]

...

Feanor you are not living in MY reality. Racism is not in the past, and your comments to such are really freakin insulting, and would be insulting to any person of color. Before you make such profoundly ignorant statements, you need to walk a mile in my shoes, or in the shoes of a black male or any black person. For people of color specifically, racism is still a HUGE issue, and classism just makes it worse. But to say one issue is insignificant and another prevelent ignores the fact that you are not a person of color, and just do not know the issues that affect them.

...

Sir T., I accept your admonition in this regard -- I haven't walked 20 yards in you shoes much less a mile. I do acknowledge that racism still exists and is still a problem. If I seemed to trivialize racism and this offends you, then I apologize.

Sadly racism exists throughout the world and will continue for a long time. Nor is it the exclusive purview of the white race as I'm sure you'll agree. My son married a Chinese girl, (from China, not a Chinese-Canadian), he met at university. When they recently visited China, he was welcomed lovingly by his wife's parents, but he said he couldn't help but notice many people in the streets looking at him with ill-concealed disdain, even hatred. (For most of their history the Chinese have been disdainful of foreigners, not unjustifiably perhaps; current attitudes might be exacerbated by fact the females are scare in China these days due to the one-child policy.)

But however in-your-face racism may continue to be, I insist the race is no longer the pivotal issue amongst developed countries in the world economy -- the corner jewelery stores don't figure much in the big picture. I continue to propose to everyone that the issue of income disparity -- which is growing and accelerating -- is the larger issue than racism in the U.S. as elsewhere.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Dunno about State-side, but up here in the Great White North Taco Bell often shares a location with that grease monger, KFC, (Kentucy Fried Chicken).

Ohhh ... the heartburn! :mad5:

KFC AND taco bell!. Could you guys have kicked me harder. These are the only two fast food joints that see my face. Oh how I long for a 3 piece meal with two breast and a thigh, been craving it for a week. Decided on saturday to scratch this itch, but came up wanting. Neither of the two KFC's had breast ready, and there was too long of a wait. Oh well, still craving, and may have to try again.

[Feanor]

I Agree...

I think that while racism still does and probably always will exist to some extent, I don't believe it is the major source of problems for minorities in North America. Classism is a much bigger issue... and confusing class prejudice with Racism is a major problem in the African American and Latino communities... Crying racism when that is not the real problem creates a lack of sympathy to your plight. It means that people ignore you as being someone who wants a free handout or lives in the past, rather than someone who has legitimate concerns.

When Kanye West made his statement after Katrina that "The President doesn't care about black people" it was flat out wrong... As has been said before in this thread: The President doesn't show enough (any) concern for poor people... He likes rich people regardless of color...

The best thing about the US is the American dream... the idea that you can start off a poor immigrant, knowing no-one and with nothing to your name and with hard work and perseverance end up rich and powerful... The problem is that this is also one of the worst things about America... because it tends to lead to the belief that anyone who hasn't made it in America is either stupid or lazy and deserves to be poor.... this is where the Class prejudice comes in...

...

Yep, Ajani, this the crux of the matter.

I'm sorry and apologize to those to whom it seems I am dismissing racism as a significant matter. My words early could be construed that way, so I should have been more careful, (politically correct?).

But I am absolutely unrepentant about insisting the classism, viz. accelerating income disparity has become the bigger problem world-wide including the U.S. This is no longer the '60s or '70s and policies meant to address exclusively racism will become increasingly ineffectual and irrelevant.

[Ajani]

Yep, Ajani, this the crux of the matter.

I'm sorry and apologize to those to whom it seems I am dismissing racism as a significant matter. My words early could be construed that way, so I should have been more careful, (politically correct?).

But I am absolutely unrepentant about insisting the classism, viz. accelerating income disparity has become the bigger problem world-wide including the U.S. This is no longer the '60s or '70s and policies meant to address exclusively racism will become increasingly ineffectual and irrelevant.

IMO, the need to be Politically correct is part of the problem... Certainly, people should respect the views and experiences of others and try not to offend people, BUT It shouldn't be a case that you can't have opinions on a topic unless you are part of a specific group...

Let's be blunt here, because you are not a minority, if you are not very careful about what you say on the issue of raciscm, then you will be branded as being "insensitive to minorities", if you push too much then you risk being categorized as "Racist".... Just as, if I talk too much about problems with America, I risk being labelled "Anti-American" because I'm a foreigner...

Being too politically correct just kills freedom of speech and independent thought...

[Feanor]

...

Also, I guess I fall more into the Obama approach to race relations than that of black activists... I don't believe that having everyone on edge about race relations will improve the situation... I honestly believe that race relations will only improve when we look past skin color and just treat everyone the same.. giving minorities special treatment may bring short term gains to their communities, but will only build up resentment towards them by the majority who are not being given special treatment... Thus you create even more hatred in the long run...
...

I think it was on CNN (unless it was BBC) where I heard that Jesse Jackson had to apologize for a somewhat crudely expressed criticism of Obama during what he thought was an off-mic interval. Seems he feels that Obama is taking an insufficiently aggressive, Africa American stance on racism towards Blacks.



...
Finally, I believe that something must be done to improve the situation for minorities, but not further affirmative action (AA). AA is essentially giving preference to a group of people based solely on their race... I believe the correct term to describe giving preference to someone based on race is Racism. So no I can't support that. However, things like free education up to at least high school and cheap (preferably free) college education for all Americans is the way to improve the situations for minorities while still being fair to everyone else. IMHO, Less money on war and more money on education is what America needs....

...

I'm I naive of what? If more is done to help the poor and Blacks and Latinos are disproportionately poor, won't they benefit disproportionally too? What am I missing here?

Certainly I wouldn't object to this sort of "disproportionate benefit". It would be based on realities other racial perception.

[daviethek]

There has always been an income desparity and racial predjuce. It can only be cured with a large, powerful working class where people feel they have apiece of the pie. I think the thing that bothers me more now is the deep differences that exist between educated and uneducated Americans, since education is absolutely required in a society where we don't manufacture things anymore. In a world where even the working class must be educated, how can parents be so delinquent in the supervision of their children's education. We're in deep doo-doo folks. When 50% of high school kids in all our major cities aren't going to graduate, you had better believe we are all going to pay for that in some way. We should be more embarassed by that statistic than any mistake we could possibly make on the world stage and yet we don't seem to be. Some complain about teachers and schools, but we need first and foremost, better students from better parents.

My father used to say the great equalizers in our society were the military and education. The military continues to be a positive influence on the lives of millions but we have failed miserably to educate ourselves as a nation. The result is the perpetuation of ignorance and its cousins hatred,cultural predjuce and racial predjuce. I am not optmistic about our future. I see a significant under-educated, under-motivated overweight underclass.

Yikes, lets talk about stereo gear shall we?.

[Ajani]

I think it was on CNN (unless it was BBC) where I heard that Jesse Jackson had to apologize for a somewhat crudely critisism of Obama during what he thought was an off-mic interval. Seems he feels that Obama is taking are sufficiently aggressive, Africa American stance racism towards Blacks.

Probably CNN, here's a link:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/09/jesse.jackson.comment/index.html#cnnSTCText

Actually it highlights the difference in opinions among members of the black community... some members (like myself and I assume Obama - based on how he has campaigned so far) believe that being black or any other race doesn't make you different from anyone else... Others (Jesse Jackson and many black activists) believe that you should always be making of an issue of being different... So many black activists will vote for Obama because they want to see the 1st Black President, but will continue to be irritated that he doesn't openly make a huge deal about being Black (acting White as they sometimes refer to it)...




I'm I naive of what? If more is done to help the poor and Blacks and Latinos are disproportionately poor, won't they benefit disproportionally too? What am I missing here?

Certainly I wouldn't object to this sort of "disproportionate benefit". It would be based on realities other racial perception.

That's exactly the point... help the poor and you clearly help the disproportionally poor races the most, without being prejudiced in favour of specific races...

[Feanor]

...

Actually it highlights the difference in opinions among members of the black community... some members (like myself and I assume Obama - based on how he has campaigned so far) believe that being black or any other race doesn't make you different from anyone else... Others (Jesse Jackson and many black activists) believe that you should always be making of an issue of being different... So many black activists will vote for Obama because they want to see the 1st Black President, but will continue to be irritated that he doesn't openly make a huge deal about being Black (acting White as they sometimes refer to it)...

That's exactly the point... help the poor and you clearly help the disproportionally poor races the most, without being prejudiced in favour of specific races...

As a foreign observer I certainly rooting for Obama. Apart from eithical considerations, (which are on his side in any case), he won't win if he is perceived to be mainly "about" the Black Agenda. Black leaders are idiots if they don't understand this.

[Ajani]

As a foreign observer I certainly rooting for Obama. Apart from eithical considerations, (which are on his side in any case), he won't win if he is perceived to be mainly "about" the Black Agenda. Black leaders are idiots if they don't understand this.

100% Agree... No sane non-black person would vote for a candidate who appears to only care for the black community...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T., I accept your admonition in this regard -- I haven't walked 20 yards in you shoes much less a mile. I do acknowledge that racism still exists and is still a problem. If I seemed to trivialize racism and this offends you, then I apologize.

Meh Feanor, you did more damage mentioning KFC and Taco Bell in the same sentence. Made me so hungry, everyone around me looked like either a soft taco, or a drumstick with hands and feet.


Sadly racism exists throughout the world and will continue for a long time. Nor is it the exclusive purview of the white race as I'm sure you'll agree. My son married a Chinese girl, (from China, not a Chinese-Canadian), he met at university. When they recently visited China, he was welcomed lovingly by his wife's parents, but he said he couldn't help but notice many people in the streets looking at him with ill-concealed disdain, even hatred. (For most of their history the Chinese have been disdainful of foreigners, not unjustifiably perhaps; current attitudes might be exacerbated by fact the females are scare in China these days due to the one-child policy.)

Racism is sad, because the racist usually isn't very bright or educated. For some reason we as humans feel that we have to be superior to somebody, or something just isn't right. When I look around at the world, I see a simmering war between fair skin people and brown and dark skin people.

India-Their cast system gives preferencial treatment to fair skin people as they are revered in that country. Dark people are considered taboo, of lower class, not desireable(and this is a country full of brown people go figure). Just the other day I saw a murder case on CNN where a young Indian guy married a black young worman. He really loved her. However her family considered the marriage an affront to the family, and the fathered ordered an assassin to kill the young wife. He succeeded, and did it right in front of the child.

The Japanese consider the Chinese lower class, Korean's dirty, and blacks theives, gangsters and murderers. I learned this while working at a Japanese bank while in college.

Chinese think blacks are lazy thieves who need watching every time they enter their business. It doesn't help that they set up their business in black neighborhoods, as this creates an unnecessary tension that if you just had a dialog, or did a goodwill gesture like hiring from inside that community, it would reduce the level of ignorance the two have regarding each others culture. Sometimes the solution is simple, but the will just isn't there.

Brazil-Despite the fact that Afro-brazilians are now a larger part of the population than all other ethnic groups, they are the most unemployed, the most discriminated againist, and the most neglicted ethnic group there.

In America-The entire standard of beauty and attractiveness is based on the Euro-white model. A trip into any grocery store supports this as you stand in line. One beauty magazine after another has a white face on the cover, with a smidgen of color just for effect. Out of 22 covers of the sexiest men for the year, only one cover had a black man. There are no latinos on any of their covers. Of the 100 sexiest men, only 5 blacks, and 7 latinos are on that list that I could see, 1 asian and the rest, white guys.

Out of the fortune 500 companies, only four are headed by black men, ten by women(of which only two are women of color) four latinos. This is not for lack of educated men or women of color, its because there is a profound lack of mentors that can shepherd them through the ranks. White males do not have that problem, and this stacks the odds of upward mobility in their favor. When you ask these people why it is so difficult to get people of color in senior management, the typical answer is "there are no role models" or "typically managers want to mentor somebody their are most comfortable with" which usuall means another white male. People of color feel constrained to look and act more whites to move up in the ranks. That is a shame.

Trying to deal with these kinds of inequaties is frustrating. Part of the problem is that when the minorities begin to discuss what they feel, and what their day to day lives are, whites(and mostly the men) get defensive, and want to quickly end the discussion. That has been my experience on the diversity committee at Disney for the last 10 years.


But however in-your-face racism may continue to be, I insist the race is no longer the pivotal issue amongst developed countries in the world economy -- the corner jewelery stores don't figure much in the big picture. I continue to propose to everyone that the issue of income disparity -- which is growing and accelerating -- is the larger issue than racism in the U.S. as elsewhere.

I have to disagree with this. Until racism is a non issue, it will continue to be as big an issue as classism to the minority community. I am sure that whites would love classism to replace racism at the table so they no longer have to feel guilty about their indifference and lack of drive on this issue.

[bobsticks]

I've spent alot of time over the last few days thinking about this thread. I'd have to say that I admire everyone, perhaps Terrence the most, for engaging in a frank and open dialogue without resorting to ad hominems.

Since everyone has "their reality" I'll briefly describe mine. Perhaps it'll be illuminating in context with some of the opinions, thoughts, and questions that may surface later. Mebbe not...

Born in the North, well into the Seventies, I was not alive for the main thrust of the Civil Rights Movement nor the social adjustments and upheavals immediately following but clearly may parents were. Raised on a diet of religion and science I was taught that while there are cultural differences between us that all to often the differences of appearance are so easily explained as to make laughable and pitiable the claims of extremists. Most importantly, I was taught to look everone in the eye and treat them with respect until they gave me a reason not to respect them.

That noted, a few disjointed thoughts and observations:



Women and minorities tend to look at problems in quite a different way than white males(not a bad thing necessarily, but its bad when its all you have). White males are top down thinkers(a generalization and observation), and Women and minorities tend to be bottom up thinkers(also a generalization and observation), because that is where they are on the totom pole. Top down thinking is great when things are going well, but piss poor when things are going badly. Bottom up thinking is great when things are bad, but not so great when things are good. The diversity of thought that the combination of white males, minorities and women bring to the table is much more broad, and representitative of what America really is. In that combination, everyone's issues are on the table, and everyone is fairly represented, and everyone has the chance to look at problems from all angles. This is not a knock on white males, but a call for diversity of thought and opinion, which we do not have presently.--Terrence

This is so profoundly correct that I can't even imagine anyone disagreeing. It's sad that many might lack the perception to notice. I think this could be the single most important though that we as a country should have in mind to redress our issues and face the many challenges to come. Unfortunately, be it pride, bias, or personal gain too few refuse to recognize the potential contributions of others. I don't think it's unfair to say that this happens on all levels of that equation.



I'll tell you why I think a 4.25 GPA is racist in this case. In order to get a 4.25 GPA, your high school must offer college prep courses. This is not a problem for schools in affluent areas(like the city of Albany where I live), but is a problem for schools in the neighboring cities like Richmond and Oakland. No high school in those areas offer college prep courses, so a student from those schools(which are largely minority) can get in to UC Berkeley. As a matter of fact almost all the schools in California with a largely minority student population cannot afford college prep courses on campus. When you add in the effects of prop 209 which does not allow race as a consideration of enrollment (just about every UC Berkeley professor has come out saying that racial diversity is paramount on that campus) it creates a real problem for minority students.---Terrence

I'll easily concede the point that it creates a real problem for minority students (in the specified area and others and rural students everywhere). I have to question however if it really is some malevolent racist construct or the result of free market effects on academia. Either way, it is a situation that demands resolution but the particulars speak to the assignation of motive.


The issue with those inner city schools is that the number of students entering high school on a college prep track is relatively low. For those students motivated and prepared enough to enroll in college prep courses, they are available. They just make up a relatively low percentage of the students and courses. Not having a lot of peer reinforcement, and counselors with the broad knowledge needed to move the students through the college admissions process, are just some of the issues to overcome.---Wooch

If the mark of our society is how it cares for the poorest/weakest among us then surely we as Americans do a pretty poor job. At the same time, the poorest among us must wish to be elevated. In a culture that celebrates ignorance, glorifies misogyny and violence and expresses an ethos of no grave concern for repercussion what is the Government, Big Business, the White Majority, or any Bureaucracy supposed to do about illegitimacy, illiteracy, and truancy? Surely, nobody is advocating an expansion of the Family Values government indoctrination, 'cause legislated morality has failed in every segment of society including disenfranchised white America.

Clearly, Sir T, should have won multiple "Father-Of-The-Year" awards and Wooch is well on his way. You can't fake the kinda devotion these guys have displayed for their kids on this forum--and when some demoness finally ensorcelles me I could only hope to be a role model of this caliber--but sadly these are not the commonplace examples.



You are right, fee waivers are out there, but the process is so frustrating many just give up and walk away. They already have enough problems as it is, and having to go through a process that makes them feel like less of a human doesn't help much. This is what they(the students) have told me.---Terrence

I remember very well a decade past, sitting in the waiting room of my counselor for three hours and being told to come back the next day. I felt like a number lost in the machine, and not very welcome either. The apparatus of the academic intelligensia is bureaucracy and one that is less efficient than any Kaftka-esque Department of Motor Vehicles could ever be though my experience is that it can be equal opportunity in its lumberings. I would respectfully submit Rule #1 from the list you so generously allowed me to post in every university.


The company I work for, like most large companies today, not racist. They want skilled workers and want them cheap. Their solutions are (1) send work packages offshore, principally to Indian, and (2) bring foreign, temporary workers onshore, again principally from Indian. (Those lucky Indians speak English.) The big factor about these folks isn't that they aren't White, (who cares? certainly not the Company), but that they aren't North American and work for much less than NA wages.--Feanor

A valid point about globalization but fails to highlight the litigious reality of American corporatism in the question of race-based pay equity. There has been the assertion that minorities do the same jobs for less money but for the exception of women (losing seniority for time-off for childbirth and rearing) I don't see this in practice. In my corporate environment HR bends over backwards to give proof-positive that this doesn't happen---not out of altruism but out of self-preservation, which is an example of the system policing itself.

Does descrimination still rear it's head in the workplace? Absolutely but I'm inclined to believe that it is more prone in less-organized settings like the corner jewelry store, the gas station, the bodega...and it is good and it is right to see folks avail themselves of the criminal and civil court judicial systems. Perfection, no; progress, yes.


The problem is that this is also one of the worst things about America... because it tends to lead to the belief that anyone who hasn't made it in America is either stupid or lazy and deserves to be poor.... this is where the Class prejudice comes in...---Ajani

True, but it also leads to race-based conflict because folks both assume things wrongly about others as well as assume others to hold beliefs not necessarily held. It's these assumptions that prevent people from working together on an individual basis thus leading to collective discord. An aside, but of note, the meteoric rise of the Japanese economy in the 70's and 80's was not just an output of U.S.imperialism but the result of consensus decision-making in an overwhelmingly homogenous society.


I think quite a few governments believe that if you do not educate large segments of your public, then its easier to keep them pacified. The Arab world has this down pat.---Terrence Well sort of, though I would substitute "refocused" over "pacified". To deflect attention from vast economic disparities the Arab Kingdoms have institutionalized the madrahsahs which seem to do a pretty effective job preaching against anything non-Islamic and, to a degree, non-local. It's like the Sharks and the Jets and the Jets and the Jets over there.


At the same time, you might want to also tell the authorities to stop racial profiling.---Woochie

Yup, across the board. The hour that I spent sitting on 38th St.(a few blocks from the crib) because any white boy in that neighborhood is clearly buying drugs convinced me sure enough. Only a fool would believe that this doesn't happen more to minorities, just an example of (perceived) classism permeating from a legacy of racism...
While it difficult for some folks to believe that officers harrass minorities, those are usually the people that really believe the cops are here to protect and serve. They are not the ones being harrassed or profiled.--Big Daddy T 100% true, but situational ethics apply and arise when dealing with the gendarmerie.


Out of the fortune 500 companies, only four are headed by black men, ten by women(of which only two are women of color) four latinos. This is not for lack of educated men or women of color, its because there is a profound lack of mentors that can shepherd them through the ranks. White males do not have that problem, and this stacks the odds of upward mobility in their favor. When you ask these people why it is so difficult to get people of color in senior management, the typical answer is "there are no role models" or "typically managers want to mentor somebody their are most comfortable with" which usuall means another white male. People of color feel constrained to look and act more whites to move up in the ranks. That is a shame.--T

Amen bruthah, and the way you change it is to change it. I think I mentioned a few months ago that I took a new position with my company, one of transition from independent contractor to formal management. I was appalled that there was no formalized mentorship program within the division so I implemented my own. One, a lady of Latino origin is so skilled I can't believe she's remained dormant and underutilized for so long. The other is a young tagalong from my indie days when he started for me as, I swear to God, a part time member of my cleaning crew. He's now a member of management, and while not currently under my direct supervision we e-mail a few times a day and see each other weekly.

Until you've sat at someone's table with their wife and new baby and seen firsthand substantitive proof of the betterment of their lives through helping them help themselves you can't know the joy of being a teacher or a coach (definetely in the corporate sense and maybe in the life sense)


Trying to deal with these kinds of inequaties is frustrating. Part of the problem is that when the minorities begin to discuss what they feel, and what their day to day lives are, whites(and mostly the men) get defensive, and want to quickly end the discussion. That has been my experience on the diversity committee at Disney for the last 10 years...
I am sure that whites would love classism to replace racism at the table so they no longer have to feel guilty about their indifference and lack of drive on this issue.---Terrence

If we accept Rawl's "Veil of Ignorance" as a just and right methodology upon which to model a society we must accept the pendulum swings which accompany it. Remember through generation's ebb and flow there will be those that are, to some extent, ignorant. I've never seen a "White's Only" restaurant or drinking fountain, nor have I advocated or participated in such a happening. Hence, if I get quietly defensive or want the conversation to end it might because I don't know when the conversation might turn from a descriptive narrative to accusatorial like the in last sentence.
Yes, the inequalities are frustrating and yet for many of us so are the generalisations. For what it's worth Terrence I recognize that you don't feel that way about all whites assuming all those reasoned and thoughtful things that you said in adjoining paragraphs were representative of your stance. It's the absence of qualifiers that strikes at that most tenuous civility for which each of us strives...

...so maybe I'm slightly confused by "indifference" and "lack of drive". Ten years later I'm just now finishing paying-off college loans, and in those ten years I worked 50, 60 and 70 hours a week to get where I'm at. I didn't get a White Pass. I work hard now and pay a disproportionate amount of taxes to social programs that I'll never personally utilize. I help people, although no longer based soley on race because I tried that and it failed---'cause kids do drugs and kids get shot--so now I triage and opt for those who want to elevate themselves and create a better life...

...and I'm glad to do it because I recognize that the less poverty there is in the world the better and I recognize a "legacy of oppression", but words like "indifference" and "lack of drive" make me feel as if an apology is expected from me on behalf of the Whitey Collective which is a proposition I hold to be as reasonable as expecting a personal apology from L.J. to Reginald Denny or from Bernd to Holocaust victims...and that's completely unreasonable.

Terrence,and to a lesser extent Wooch, looking back on these few words I can see how you two might find these thoughts an attack though I assure you they're not. They're just opinions from "my reality". In fact, I may be more optimistic than most. Mebbe it's being a little younger than many on the board or maybe it's living a more "street-level" existence but for every terrible act of true racism I see a hundred random acts of kindness, exhibited in folks from all stripes holding doors for one another, picking up dinner tabs, watching each other's kids, in spiritual communion at church, playing sports, getting drunk together, falling in love, and yes, kvetching about the high price of gas. Hopefully this is the byproduct of youth not forgetting the lessons of the past but not internalizing wrongs done to others and working together to create a more equitable liberty.

In closing, I would ask only this...don't let any antipathy toward the opinions of the sender effect your fondness of the sender, as assuredly he has not let his effect his fondness of you.

Peace brothers,


Lizard King

[Ajani]

Trying to deal with these kinds of inequaties is frustrating. Part of the problem is that when the minorities begin to discuss what they feel, and what their day to day lives are, whites(and mostly the men) get defensive, and want to quickly end the discussion. That has been my experience on the diversity committee at Disney for the last 10 years...
I am sure that whites would love classism to replace racism at the table so they no longer have to feel guilty about their indifference and lack of drive on this issue

+


If we accept Rawl's "Veil of Ignorance" as a just and right methodology upon which to model a society we must accept the pendulum swings which accompany it. Remember through generation's ebb and flow there will be those that are, to some extent, ignorant. I've never seen a "White's Only" restaurant or drinking fountain, nor have I advocated or participated in such a happening. Hence, if I get quietly defensive or want the conversation to end it might because I don't know when the conversation might turn from a descriptive narrative to accusatorial like the in last sentence.
Yes, the inequalities are frustrating and yet for many of us so are the generalisations. For what it's worth Terrence I recognize that you don't feel that way about all whites assuming all those reasoned and thoughtful things that you said in adjoining paragraphs were representative of your stance. It's the absence of qualifiers that strikes at that most tenuous civility for which each of us strives...

...so maybe I'm slightly confused by "indifference" and "lack of drive". Ten years later I'm just now finishing paying-off college loans, and in those ten years I worked 50, 60 and 70 hours a week to get where I'm at. I didn't get a White Pass. I work hard now and pay a disproportionate amount of taxes to social programs that I'll never personally utilize. I help people, although no longer based soley on race because I tried that and it failed---'cause kids do drugs and kids get shot--so now I triage and opt for those who want to elevate themselves and create a better life...

...and I'm glad to do it because I recognize that the less poverty there is in the world the better and I recognize a "legacy of oppression", but words like "indifference" and "lack of drive" make me feel as if an apology is expected from me on behalf of the Whitey Collective which is a proposition I hold to be as reasonable as expecting a personal apology from L.J. to Reginald Denny or from Bernd to Holocaust victims...and that's completely unreasonable.

Terrence,and to a lesser extent Wooch, looking back on these few words I can see how you two might find these thoughts an attack though I assure you they're not. They're just opinions from "my reality". In fact, I may be more optimistic than most. Mebbe it's being a little younger than many on the board or maybe it's living a more "street-level" existence but for every terrible act of true racism I see a hundred random acts of kindness, exhibited in folks from all stripes holding doors for one another, picking up dinner tabs, watching each other's kids, in spiritual communion at church, playing sports, getting drunk together, falling in love, and yes, kvetching about the high price of gas. Hopefully this is the byproduct of youth not forgetting the lessons of the past but not internalizing wrongs done to others and working together to create a more equitable liberty.


My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

Sir T and Wooch, if you found out that your great great grandfathers cheated some other family out of their wealth... and now a current member of that family came to demand apology and retribution for the sins of past generations, can you honestly say that you would tell your kids: 'Sorry, but I can no longer afford to send you to college, because we need to hand over most of our money to the other family who great-grand-daddy cheated'? Now, I'm sure you would feel bad about it, and you might even make some legitimate effort to help, but I don't think you'd really regard it as your sin and something you should feel personally responsible for...

Throughout history, people have wronged others... can we really expect to hold on to all the evils of the past, waiting for what? Some kind of mass apology? For the descendants of the offendors to make some kind of amends for crimes they didn't commit? Is every German responsible for the holocaust? Is every American responsible for Hiroshima?

If we hold on the wrongs of the past, then first off.. all of you (White, Black, Latino, etc) should leave America right now and give it back to the remaining Native Americans...

There are real casses of racism today... but there are also real cases of kindness and understanding... of racial tolerance and unity... You can choose to hold on the wrongs of the past and fail to see that things have changed and things improve with each succeeding generation or you can embrace the present and the future....

[Feanor]

[quote=Ajani...

My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

....[/quote]

Ajani, thanks, well-said.

It seems you and I agree on things where others are reluctant to acknowledge.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

Sir T and Wooch, if you found out that your great great grandfathers cheated some other family out of their wealth... and now a current member of that family came to demand apology and retribution for the sins of past generations, can you honestly say that you would tell your kids: 'Sorry, but I can no longer afford to send you to college, because we need to hand over most of our money to the other family who great-grand-daddy cheated'? Now, I'm sure you would feel bad about it, and you might even make some legitimate effort to help, but I don't think you'd really regard it as your sin and something you should feel personally responsible for...

Throughout history, people have wronged others... can we really expect to hold on to all the evils of the past, waiting for what? Some kind of mass apology? For the descendants of the offendors to make some kind of amends for crimes they didn't commit? Is every German responsible for the holocaust? Is every American responsible for Hiroshima?

If we hold on the wrongs of the past, then first off.. all of you (White, Black, Latino, etc) should leave America right now and give it back to the remaining Native Americans...

There are real casses of racism today... but there are also real cases of kindness and understanding... of racial tolerance and unity... You can choose to hold on the wrongs of the past and fail to see that things have changed and things improve with each succeeding generation or you can embrace the present and the future....
I agree with this post 1 billion %. What you say here Sir T:

Trying to deal with these kinds of inequaties is frustrating. Part of the problem is that when the minorities begin to discuss what they feel, and what their day to day lives are, whites(and mostly the men) get defensive, and want to quickly end the discussion. That has been my experience on the diversity committee at Disney for the last 10 years.
And here...

I am sure that whites would love classism to replace racism at the table so they no longer have to feel guilty about their indifference and lack of drive on this issue.
..to me sounds like more generalizations similar to the ones I see from Mr. & Ms. Dooright. When you say "whites" Mr. T, are you sure you know that's how I feel? I don't feel the slightest bit guilty OR uncomfortable when someone who's not a white person talks about the persecution of their ancestors. (Edit: Nothing I can do about so why dwell on it? Echoing sticks' sentiments... I treat people with equal respect until they show me they no longer deserve it.)

There are leaders and ministers in the black community down here who are telling their bretheren to move on, get over the past and concentrate on making a better life for themselves.

[Xoote]

[quote=Ajani...

My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

....[/quote]

couldn't have said it better myself.

[Woochifer]

Just because I believe classism is the Most significant problem affecting minorites DOESN'T mean that I think that racism doesn't still exist or that it is insignificant... There are obvious cases of racism, whether through racial profiling and harassment by the police etc... but I just can't agree with the idea that just about any class issue is really just covert racism... eg the GPA requirement is raised to keep black people poor... We have those EXACT same problems in majority Black countries (such as Jamaica, where I grew up).... The best schools kept requiring higher and higher grades to get in and became more expensive... thus making it harder for the poor to get a good education, hence the status quo remains the same... So I will never agree with the notion that a problem faced in so many other places in the world, is about classism (or maybe even just economics - demand and supply) in those countries but is racism in America... That honestly sounds like a case of crying wolf to me...

I'm not ignoring the class aspect. The problem that I have is that the current affirmative action backlash aims to completely ignore the racial component, which I think is equally short-sighted.


Another issue is that nothing seems to be treated as an isolated incident anymore... Simple example: If 2 white LAPD Cops harass a black student, the black community decides that this is obvious proof that the LAPD is racist! It doesn't matter if only 2 of 60 white cops were racist.. unless every white cop in the LAPD immediately comes out denouncing the action and is ready to help execute the 2 offenders, then the LAPD is clearly a front for the KKK... Yes, sometimes problems go deeper than just offenders... but I find the jump to major racist conspiracy to be unwarranted most of the time...

Problem with your scenario is that racial profiling is not an isolated incident. Just among the African American guys I knew in grad school, to a person EVERY ONE OF THEM had at some point been harassed by the cops (and all of them had clean records). We're talking about guys who graduated from elite universities, and were now grad students at Berkeley. These are not thugs and gangstas, yet every one of them had at some point been treated like a common criminal.

Same goes with my former college roommate and his brother. Both of them are African American, came from a very wealthy family, and were educated at elite prep schools. Yet, when they came out to Cali with their designer wardrobes and expensive cars, they too got the treatment from the LAPD -- the presumption being that they were dealers or gangsters. To me, these are not isolated incidents. I mean, if thse guys who make it to top ranked grad schools or who come from very privileged backgrounds are getting hassled by the cops, what does that say about everybody else?


Finally, I believe that something must be done to improve the situation for minorities, but not further affirmative action (AA). AA is essentially giving preference to a group of people based solely on their race... I believe the correct term to describe giving preference to someone based on race is Racism. So no I can't support that. However, things like free education up to at least high school and cheap (preferably free) college education for all Americans is the way to improve the situations for minorities while still being fair to everyone else. IMHO, Less money on war and more money on education is what America needs....

You're buying into the hysterical myths about affirmative action. Affirmative action programs are extremely varied in how they're setup (most of the federal programs were signed into law by Richard Nixon). The current backlash uses the most egregious examples, like the Michigan Law School or University of Texas policies (that got struck down in federal court) where admissions departments used numerical quotas and segregated the admissions pools by race in order to hit those targets, and spreads the lie that all affirmative action programs are setup the same way. The fact is that they're not.

Affirmative action can be as simple as an outreach or scholarship program that targets underrepresented minorities. When California abolished affirmative action, it also eliminated the programs that were aimed at recruiting African American and Latino students to the state universities. Sure, you can target a good cross-section by focusing efforts on inner city schools, but what about those minority students that attend higher income suburban school districts?

I can tell you that in many of these suburban districts, African American students, particularly the males, will more often get sidetracked into a vocational curriculum, even if they have the grades to enroll in college prep courses. An African American student I knew from a predominantly white suburban high school had to fight tooth and nail with his teachers and advisors to enroll in college prep courses, even though he got good grades. He did fine in those courses and wound in college.

But, what about those students that do follow the advice of teachers and administrators that might routinely assume that African American students are better off on a vocational track?

Or even those African American students whose parents believe the same thing? A former African American coworker is doing everything within her power to get her daughter into college, yet she envisions more of a blue collar career for her younger son, even though he also does well in school. I've had to drill the notion into her repeatedly that her son can be every bit as capable as her daughter at handling a college prep curriculum.

Colleges and universities through an affirmative action program can target these students and put them into a program that increases their chances of succeeding at the college level. When 209 passed in California, these programs (which were very successful at increasing minority student enrollment and retention from all classes) were done away with.

Calling affirmative action a form of racism ignores the forces that it's intended to balance out. College admissions incorporate a litany of different factors, but in most cases, we're not talking about admitting unqualified students. We're talking about ensuring a fair opportunity for groups that have historically been underrepresented.

I oppose rigid racial quotas, but I also oppose going completely race blind. My former professor's research demonstrated how race blind hiring processes wind up discriminating against African American and Latino candidates with equal or superior qualifications. Doing nothing basically assures a status quo where African American and Latinos have fewer opportunities than their white counterparts, even if they don't come from an impoverished background.

[Woochifer]

My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

Problem is that in the absence of any kind of action, this legacy replicates the past into the future. You cannot tell someone to just get over something, when so much of the deck has been stacked against them.

Has nothing to do with trying to make whites feel guilty, it has to do with acknowledging the current reality and then deciding what, if anything, should be done about it. Problem with the affirmative action debate is that many affirmative action opponents want to frame the debate by denying that there is a problem (e.g., Dinesh D'Souza, Charles Murray, et al).


Sir T and Wooch, if you found out that your great great grandfathers cheated some other family out of their wealth... and now a current member of that family came to demand apology and retribution for the sins of past generations, can you honestly say that you would tell your kids: 'Sorry, but I can no longer afford to send you to college, because we need to hand over most of our money to the other family who great-grand-daddy cheated'? Now, I'm sure you would feel bad about it, and you might even make some legitimate effort to help, but I don't think you'd really regard it as your sin and something you should feel personally responsible for...

Your example presumes that I arrived at my views based on some need for transgenerational justice. Quite the contrary, I'm looking at this strictly from a contemporary cause and effect perspective. The fact of the matter is that African Americans and Latinos, on average, have to overcome more in order to participate and advance within our education and economic system. And this applies, even within a middle or upper class context. Once you establish that as the reality, then you can debate whether to do something about it or do nothing. Simply shifting the discussion to "it's all about class" obfuscates the very real impact that race continues to have across a broad spectrum of society.

[Feanor]

I'm not ignoring the class aspect. The problem that I have is that the current affirmative action backlash aims to completely ignore the racial component, which I think is equally short-sighted.

...

"Class", that is, disparity of wealth & power, has been a problem of human society as long or longer than racism, and more consistently throughout history. Unlike racism which is in slow decline, economic disparity is increasing alarmingly within almost all countries. Understand that you and I have far more in common with the minimum-waged earner -- or the illegal farm worker -- than with the super-rich.

I'm a left-winger. I support the universal education and health care. I support equality of opportunity through improving the lot of the poor.

But I am absolutely opposed to privileging anyone solely on the basis of race or gender. Conversely I am absolutely opposed to seeing my child losing an educational opportunity or job because some less well-qualified "minority" member. I absolutely refuse to forfeit my child's hard-won success in order to compensate somebody else's for their supposed -- or real for that matter -- disadvantage.

"Affirmative action" is discriminatory, full-stop. It is a flawed concept that one group of people, most of whom are individually guilty of nothing, should be called upon to compensate another group of people who individually might or might not have ever suffer injustice in the past. The concept is insufferable in my opinion. The fact the groups in question are races, makes it a racist concept -- or sexist if we're talking gender AA.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"Affirmative action" is discriminatory, full-stop. It is a flawed concept that one group of people, most of whom are individually guilty of nothing, should be called upon to compensate another group of people who individually might or might not have ever suffer injustice in the past. The concept is insufferable in my opinion. The fact the groups in question are races, makes it a racist concept -- or sexist if we're talking gender AA.
I agree with this 1 billion % also. (How 'bout that, huh Bill Bailey? :thumbsup: )

IMO, AA, like unions promote mediocrity.

[Feanor]

I agree with this 1 billion % also. (How 'bout that, huh Bill Bailey? :thumbsup: )

IMO, AA, like unions promote mediocrity.
At least in the AA case, I agree with you. Organizations that hire the less well qualified applicants, or schools that train the less accomplished students, will be diminished.

And even if AA did more good for the groups it benefits than harm to those it punishes, it would remain a fundamentally unjust concept. Justifications amount to "liberal" drivel of the worst sort. Coming from members of groups who have to pay, it is pathetically and contemptibly flagellant.

[Woochifer]

"Class", that is, disparity of wealth & power, has been a problem of human society as long or longer than racism, and more consistently throughout history. Unlike racism which is in slow decline, economic disparity is increasing alarmingly within almost all countries. Understand that you and I have far more in common with the minimum-waged earner -- or the illegal farm worker -- than with the super-rich.

I'm a left-winger. I support the universal education and health care. I support equality of opportunity through improving the lot of the poor.

But I am absolutely opposed to privileging anyone solely on the basis of race or gender. Conversely I am absolutely opposed to seeing my child losing an educational opportunity or job because some less well-qualified "minority" member. I absolutely refuse to forfeit my child's hard-won success in order to compensate somebody else's for their supposed -- or real for that matter -- disadvantage.

"Affirmative action" is discriminatory, full-stop. It is a flawed concept that one group of people, most of whom are individually guilty of nothing, should be called upon to compensate another group of people who individually might or might not have ever suffer injustice in the past. The concept is insufferable in my opinion. The fact the groups in question are races, makes it a racist concept -- or sexist if we're talking gender AA.

I'm not defending the excesses that some affimative action programs have gone to. I'm simply stating that you cannot implement a "race blind" setup, without the resultant process having a discriminatory effect against African Americans and Latinos. That's the reality. Problem with your post is that you presume that injustices are in the past, and that the remedies are merely transgenerational social engineering. They're not. Affirmative action was intended to address systemic problems that have contemporary ramifications.

The offensive against affirmative action has targeted race-based preferences, yet few of those opponents seem to care about the inherent unfairness of other preferences like college alumni legacy set-asides and the many forms of nepotism intended to reinforce the status quo. Meritocracy is a nice concept in theory, but the reality is that there are many many things that would need to be fixed in order to achieve that. Eliminating affirmative action leaves a setup where the preferences that favor white and well-connected candidates remain in place, while those that are intended to provide a more level playing field for minorities are done away with.

Like I said, how do you counteract the situations that my former professor studied where "race blind" job application processes wind up rejecting "minority" candidates at a higher rate than "white" candidates with comparable or even inferior qualifications? How do you address teachers and advisors in suburban school districts that put African American boys onto vocational tracks and advance other students with lower grades and/or test scores onto college prep tracks? People have said that anti-discrimination laws are enough, but how do you deal with the fact that the Bush administration has gutted the civil rights division within the Justice Department, and now prosecutes more cases of discrimination against white people than anything else?

Those are real world problems that affirmative action programs seek to address. It's an imperfect solution, but IMO doing nothing is far worse.

[thekid]

IMO- I do not think at the heart of it anyone is a big fan of AA. Again, IMO until you eliminate the conditions that lead to AA in the first place such as uneven education, inadequate housing etc there is a need for AA. I think in today's world people equate AA with racism in that people who do not believe racisim exists do not feel the need for AA.

Racism or more specifically cultural bias is part of the equation but I think educational and economic disparity is the bigger issue and AA does not address those problems. For all those (on both sides of the arguement) who want to eliminate AA you need to address the issues that lead to it in the first place and that goes beyond just addressing people based on gender, skin color, relegion or national origin.

[bobsticks]

Rich, please, please do not co-opt my sentences into your argument. We are not allies in this, I can assure you. You're engaging in an ideological polemic and I'm discussing the relevance of words and the assignation of motive. I have never once argued against reasonable Affirmative Action in education...and in the business world, AA begets the results that just about everything else does; overlooked and skilled folks get a chance to shine and unqualified scam artists eventually get the heave-ho.

Every single thing that Wooch has stated is true and, in fact, I would go so far as to say that he pulled his punches and doesn't go far enough. Studies show that AA applicants perform better than their counterparts on average---so, No, they don't "promote mediocrity like Unions"do--- and isn't that what college is about in a broader sense?...preparing as large a cross-section of our soceity for a competitive world...

I went to college in the heyday of AA.I would have loved to have gone to Uof M, I ended up at WMU because there were people that had better grades than I did and there were better athletes than I was and there were people with more money than me. B-O-O-effin'-H-O-O for me. I got two cars and a condo paid for, a bunch of toys and stock options, so that turned out badly for me...and I've failed twice. I'm probably one of few that you'll encounter that has gone from the gutter to the penthouse twice--and I mean that literally...so, yeah, I'm gonna argue that AA hurt me...hell, I hurt me more than AA hurt me. :biggrin5:

...and btw, I didn't find a dearth of white faces on campus...

...and as a further aside those with a keen eye for the past would note that when one segment of a society feels rightfully beset upon by another the seeds of revolution are sewn...which is usually preceded by heads on the pitchfork of a peasant. So, that's, y'know, a bad thing too.

The ostensibly complex but essentially simple principle that I'm talkembout is reciprocity of etiquette. Words have meaning and they permeate our thoughts, consciously or sub-consciously, for good or ill. And we're all responsible for them especially in conversations and dialogues that are not casual by any means...or, in other words, I'm glad to help because it is right and it is good and it's humane but recognize that the logical consequence of a broad generalization is that it takes only one example to refute and thus the argument becomes emotionally diluted adding to the temerity of an already charged situation...which is what I meant by " It's the absence of qualifiers that strikes at that most tenuous civility for which each of us strives..."


We were all born into this.

[Feanor]

IMO- I do not think at the heart of it anyone is a big fan of AA. Again, IMO until you eliminate the conditions that lead to AA in the first place such as uneven education, inadequate housing etc there is a need for AA. I think in today's world people equate AA with racism in that people who do not believe racisim exists do not feel the need for AA.

Racism or more specifically cultural bias is part of the equation but I think educational and economic disparity is the bigger issue and AA does not address those problems. For all those (on both sides of the arguement) who want to eliminate AA you need to address the issues that lead to it in the first place and that goes beyond just addressing people based on gender, skin color, relegion or national origin.
I don't doubt that folks here have met nice, smart, athletic AA beneficiaries. Have they sought out the nice, smart, athletic people who got bumped in favor of the former or do they suppose the latter don't exist? Or worse, do they suppose that those bumped deserved the treatment? One simply cannot make a just argument the current generations deserved to punished for the sins of previous generations

I believe in equality of these things, (not of the "toys" a person may accumulate):
Opportunity -- education, employment, right to live where you can pay the rent
Protection -- of basic survival, (food, shelter), of health, (health care), from violence, before the law, of expression, from gratuitous insult by commercial or public service providers
Civil responsibility -- the obligation to respect the law, your neighbors, to reciprocate the help you are received from society.I fully believe that when every individual enjoys these equalities, racism -- at least it's effects - will quickly become insignificant. In fact until then racism will tend to be perpetuated due to human nature that likes to blame the outsider for our misfortunes.

In essence if these the basic equalities I mentioned are delivered to all as individuals then equalities pertaining to a person's accidental group memberships are irrelevant. Race or gender-base AA is at best a surrogate, "quick fix" for more fundamental inequalities, (very much a "political" solution). At worse it is simply racist/sexist in and of itself.

The seeming irony is that if we believe that a person's race or gender is really irrelevant to their abilities, then we must ignore group membership when evaluating them.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, please, please do not co-opt my sentences into your argument. We are not allies in this, I can assure you. You're engaging in an ideological polemic and I'm discussing the relevance of words and the assignation of motive. I have never once argued against reasonable Affirmative Action in education...and in the business world, AA begets the results that just about everything else does; overlooked and skilled folks get a chance to shine and unqualified scam artists eventually get the heave-ho.

Most importantly, I was taught to look everone in the eye and treat them with respect until they gave me a reason not to respect them.

Echoing sticks' sentiments... I treat people with equal respect until they show me they no longer deserve it.)
This is what I was agreeing with. After that, I was no longer addressing anything else you said sticks. Let's set the record straight on that.

Now, it's Sunday, I'm enjoying my equipment so let's leave me out of this discussion.

[bobsticks]

This is what I was agreeing with. After that, I was no longer addressing anything else you said sticks. Let's set the record straight on that.

Now, it's Sunday, I'm enjoying my equipment so let's leave me out of this discussion.

Okay, schnookums ;)

[bobsticks]

Well, someone's being a bit cantankerous today :p


I don't doubt that folks here have met nice, smart, athletic AA beneficiaries. Have they sought out the nice, smart, athletic people who got bumped in favor of the former or do they suppose the latter don't exist? Or worse, do they suppose that those bumped deserved the treatment? One simply cannot make a just argument the current generations deserved to punished for the sins of previous generations.

I was saying that maybe, in fact, I was that person. During the time period to which I refer U of M was considered to be one of the most egregious offenders of blatantly poor Affirmative Action implementation. Was I unfairly not accepted? I don't know. Could one have scoured the tens of thousands and found a less qualified applicant? Possibly, but at the time I also recognized that life is life (Rule #1) and I prolly had more opportunities than some folks so I modified my plans and took action.



I believe in equality of these things, (not of the "toys" a person may accumulate):
Opportunity -- education, employment, right to live where you can pay the rent
Protection -- of basic survival, (food, shelter), of health, (health care), from violence, before the law, of expression, from gratuitous insult by commercial or public service providers
Civil responsibility -- the obligation to respect the law, your neighbors, to reciprocate the help you are received from society.

Nice shot. "Toys" was a light-hearted reference to material things and security which may not mean much to you but probably means something to a mother of three in squalor or a guy in some rundown apartment sitting in the dark because he can't afford lightbulbs. The fact that you didn't synthesize that means either I didn't choose my words for the audience well or you don't encounter abject poverty very often. In any case, the cream rises to the top but the probability is higher when ya got creamy skin.



I fully believe that when every individual enjoys these equalities, racism -- at least it's effects - will quickly become insignificant.

Kewl, when do we start. This is a bit akin, at least in terms of the American Experiment, to any argument over gun rights, which is neat and tidy over a latenight single-malt discussion of John Locke, Machiavelli and the English Bill of Rights but there's 320 million handguns in existence in this country. The ship has left the harbour on that one.


In fact until then racism will tend to be perpetuated due to human nature that likes to blame the outsider for our misfortunes.

True, and small-minded people of all stripes inevitably get what's coming to them.


The seeming irony is that if we believe that a person's race or gender is really irrelevant to their abilities, then we must ignore group membership when evaluating them.

Tell that to folks in some gully-ass area like South Philly, Metro-Indy, Maryvale, Four Corners and Codman Square in Boston, East St. Louis, Miami, East L.A., or Detroit...oh yeah, or our nation's capital.


In essence if these the basic equalities I mentioned are delivered to all as individuals then equalities pertaining to a person's accidental group memberships are irrelevant. Race or gender-base AA is at best a surrogate, "quick fix" for more fundamental inequalities, (very much a "political" solution). At worse it is simply racist/sexist in and of itself.

Absolutely, I agree...see, I can play nice. The problem is that maybe a little surrogacy right now is the best we're capable of. There's too much built in resentment and hate, both rational and particularly irrational, on all sides to just say "Okay, we're all on the same team now". Frankly, alot of people are gonna have to die before things get better down heah.

Feanor, I can agree with every word you wrote conceptually and still contend that it's wrong for America at the moment...but hopefully we're moving in that direction.

NP: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SJ65Hit4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

[Feanor]

..
Feanor, I can agree with every word you wrote conceptually and still contend that it's wrong for America at the moment...but hopefully we're moving in that direction.

...

Thanks, 'Sticks, but you won't move in that direction until you move in that direction.

[Ajani]

Thanks, 'Sticks, but you won't move in that direction until you move in that direction.

Much of the progress that has been made in race relations is because one man had the audacity to have a dream... Despite the number of people who felt he was insane for dreaming, that he wasn't living in the real world. Despite even being killed for his dream... but we've come a long way since then... and if we are willing to try and move in the right direction, change will come...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

+




[quote]My honest belief is that in order for any group to embrace the present and advance, they need to let go of the wrongs of the past (not forget and pretend that it never happened, but learn from it and move on)...

You can't move on until the inequalities are no more. What I am reading from you is, blacks, latinos, you guys stop having ill feeling towards a system that treats you like a second class citizen, and just move on, problem still intact. I for one am not going to do this. I have children, and I do not want them to experience the things that my Godmother and Godfather went through, or even the few things I went through as well. I am not prepared to accept this, as this would leave a system that is broken(and benefits only a single race), and disfunctional for non whites which is unacceptable.


Why should we expect every white person (whether living or not yet born) to feel bad about racism that they did not participate in?

Because you are a beneficiary of that system whether you created it, participated in it or not. The thing about white privilige in this country is most whites are not aware of the privilige they have. Its taken for granted, and so widely acceptable that they cannot see it. Some of the benefits include;

1. Being able to rent or buy wherever you want to, without discrimination.
2. The ability to step out of you home without being profiled, or harrassed.
3. Able to go to school without having normal kids being put in special ed classes because the teacher who is a different race doesn't understand your culture. (This happens to black kids who have white teachers, its a big problem, and is recognized by the National Education Association)
4. Are able to get better interest rates, lower insurance rates, and qualify for loans because you are not redlined.
5. Do not have to look or act like another culture to be accepted on the job, or for promotions.
6. Are easily moved up the corporate ladder by a mentoring system where all the pieces fit together for success.
7. You get the best service in Hospitals, banks and restaurants.
8. Your culture is the prevailing culture, so you do not have to change a thing about you to assimilate.
9. Your idea of beauty is the only acceptable idea of beauty, so you do not have to straighten your hair, or lighten you face to get in a fashion magazine, or to be called one of the sexist men.
10. Your culture had the benefit of creating all the American institutions such as the justice system, the education system, banking system, and most importantly the political system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege


Sir T and Wooch, if you found out that your great great grandfathers cheated some other family out of their wealth... and now a current member of that family came to demand apology and retribution for the sins of past generations, can you honestly say that you would tell your kids: 'Sorry, but I can no longer afford to send you to college, because we need to hand over most of our money to the other family who great-grand-daddy cheated'? Now, I'm sure you would feel bad about it, and you might even make some legitimate effort to help, but I don't think you'd really regard it as your sin and something you should feel personally responsible for...

If my family benefitted from this theft, at the detriment of the other family, I would have to tell my kids just that. I do not want to teach my kids that it is okay to step on somebody elses dreams and asperations just to satisfy mine. It is not okay to benefit off the back of somebody else. You may feel this is okay to do this, but it is not. Why don't you tell your kids hey its okay to have a good life and life benefits at the detriment of (and lets point out any minority)? You may not have been personally responsible for it, but you sure in the hell benefitted from it.

Can you explain to me why it was okay to compensate Japanese Americans for their interment in camps during WWII? Why is it okay to compensate the American Indian for atrocities committed against them? Now when it comes to addressing injustices to blacks and latinos, all of a sudden you ask why do you have to be responsible for something you didn't do. When you send the message that X race should be compensated, and this one does not, you are playing the game of conquer and divide the minorities, which is an old trick that has been done for years by the white race( Senator Joseph Biden mentioned this at one of the debates during the primaries).


Throughout history, people have wronged others... can we really expect to hold on to all the evils of the past, waiting for what? Some kind of mass apology? For the descendants of the offendors to make some kind of amends for crimes they didn't commit? Is every German responsible for the holocaust? Is every American responsible for Hiroshima?

So what is your alternative, to just wrong folks and let that be it? This country has done that already, with blacks in front of the bullet. Can't you see the results? Not taking responsibility for your actions sets you up for many enemies.

If the decendants benefitted from this wrongdoing, they most certainly should have to pay for what their forefather(or mothers) have done. They are benefitting from the wrongdoing even if they did not do the act directly.


If we hold on the wrongs of the past, then first off.. all of you (White, Black, Latino, etc) should leave America right now and give it back to the remaining Native Americans..

It wouldn't bother me one bit, but I know whites will not go for this at all. After all quite a few white people describe themselves(or other whites) as "All American", so I would not imagine they would want to give that title back to the Indians.


There are real casses of racism today... but there are also real cases of kindness and understanding... of racial tolerance and unity... You can choose to hold on the wrongs of the past and fail to see that things have changed and things improve with each succeeding generation or you can embrace the present and the future....

While things are a far cry from slavery, and pre sixties times, it has not change enough, or fast enough. We don't have REAL racial tolerance(I don't want to be tolerated, I want to be acknowledged), and we certainly do not have REAL unity.

I have another suggestion. How about whites come to the table with blacks, latinos, and asians and lets talk about what it is to be a minority in America. Then let's talk about what its like to be white in America, and compare. Then lets work to change our attitutes about race, and truely attain racial equality(screw that tolerance crap).

Your response is pretty typical. Come on everybody, lets do a group hug and sing kumbaya and forget the past. And leave the problems and the privilige on the table unsolved and festering. No thanks to that!

[Ajani]

[QUOTE=Ajani]+






You can't move on until the inequalities are no more. What I am reading from you is, blacks, latinos, you guys stop having ill feeling towards a system that treats you like a second class citizen, and just move on, problem still intact. I for one am not going to do this. I have children, and I do not want them to experience the things that my Godmother and Godfather went through, or even the few things I went through as well. I am not prepared to accept this, as this would leave a system that is broken(and benefits only a single race), and disfunctional for non whites which is unacceptable.



Because you are a beneficiary of that system whether you created it, participated in it or not. The thing about white privilige in this country is most whites are not aware of the privilige they have. Its taken for granted, and so widely acceptable that they cannot see it. Some of the benefits include;

1. Being able to rent or buy wherever you want to, without discrimination.
2. The ability to step out of you home without being profiled, or harrassed.
3. Able to go to school without having normal kids being put in special ed classes because the teacher who is a different race doesn't understand your culture. (This happens to black kids who have white teachers, its a big problem, and is recognized by the National Education Association)
4. Are able to get better interest rates, lower insurance rates, and qualify for loans because you are not redlined.
5. Do not have to look or act like another culture to be accepted on the job, or for promotions.
6. Are easily moved up the corporate ladder by a mentoring system where all the pieces fit together for success.
7. You get the best service in Hospitals, banks and restaurants.
8. Your culture is the prevailing culture, so you do not have to change a thing about you to assimilate.
9. Your idea of beauty is the only acceptable idea of beauty, so you do not have to straighten your hair, or lighten you face to get in a fashion magazine, or to be called one of the sexist men.
10. Your culture had the benefit of creating all the American institutions such as the justice system, the education system, banking system, and most importantly the political system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege



If my family benefitted from this theft, at the detriment of the other family, I would have to tell my kids just that. I do not want to teach my kids that it is okay to step on somebody elses dreams and asperations just to satisfy mine. It is not okay to benefit off the back of somebody else. You may feel this is okay to do this, but it is not. Why don't you tell your kids hey its okay to have a good life and life benefits at the detriment of (and lets point out any minority)? You may not have been personally responsible for it, but you sure in the hell benefitted from it.

Can you explain to me why it was okay to compensate Japanese Americans for their interment in camps during WWII? Why is it okay to compensate the American Indian for atrocities committed against them? Now when it comes to addressing injustices to blacks and latinos, all of a sudden you ask why do you have to be responsible for something you didn't do. When you send the message that X race should be compensated, and this one does not, you are playing the game of conquer and divide the minorities, which is an old trick that has been done for years by the white race( Senator Joseph Biden mentioned this at one of the debates during the primaries).



So what is your alternative, to just wrong folks and let that be it? This country has done that already, with blacks in front of the bullet. Can't you see the results? Not taking responsibility for your actions sets you up for many enemies.

If the decendants benefitted from this wrongdoing, they most certainly should have to pay for what their forefather(or mothers) have done. They are benefitting from the wrongdoing even if they did not do the act directly.



It wouldn't bother me one bit, but I know whites will not go for this at all. After all quite a few white people describe themselves(or other whites) as "All American", so I would not imagine they would want to give that title back to the Indians.



While things are a far cry from slavery, and pre sixties times, it has not change enough, or fast enough. We don't have REAL racial tolerance(I don't want to be tolerated, I want to be acknowledged), and we certainly do not have REAL unity.

I have another suggestion. How about whites come to the table with blacks, latinos, and asians and lets talk about what it is to be a minority in America. Then let's talk about what its like to be white in America, and compare. Then lets work to change our attitutes about race, and truely attain racial equality(screw that tolerance crap).

Your response is pretty typical. Come on everybody, lets do a group hug and sing kumbaya and forget the past. And leave the problems and the privilige on the table unsolved and festering. No thanks to that!

Obviously, I disagree with your position but I respect you point of view... Much of the difference in our points of view likely comes from the fact that we grew up in different times... I have worked in both Canada and the US and been on the diversity committee at my firm during that time... I know that one of the reasons I managed to get the chance to work in North America so easily, was because I am a black male under 30 and the firm was strongly pushing diversity (as are ALL of its major competitors in the industry)...

Your views sound much closer to that of my aunt and uncle in New York... They grew up in a different world from the one I grew up in... yes racism still exists... but times have changed dramatically and will continue to do so... One year from now, a Black Man may even be the President... Just 10 years ago that was thought to be impossible....

[Feanor]

You are seeking not equality but retribution. You are seeking to perpetuate racial/cultural separation, preferably with the roles reversed. I wish you no good luck achieving these things.

The whole notion that one racial group has to "make it up" to the other racial group is inherently racist and unjust because it forces mostly innocent individuals to pay off another, not necessarily harmed, individuals. The best you can and should hope for is equality going forward.

It is not fair lumb all whites in the tiny elite of truly priviledged people. It is a fatuous notion that all whites are priviledged -- most of us aren't priviledge and we don't feel that way apart for a tiny minority of rich, flagellant liberals. It's your son who is going to Stanford, not mine. Seemingly it's just too convenient to be able to blame some other group for your own shortcomings. In my case, though, I have only the guy in the mirror to blame.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I don't doubt that folks here have met nice, smart, athletic AA beneficiaries. Have they sought out the nice, smart, athletic people who got bumped in favor of the former or do they suppose the latter don't exist? Or worse, do they suppose that those bumped deserved the treatment? One simply cannot make a just argument the current generations deserved to punished for the sins of previous generations

The thing you keep forgetting over and over is what happen to the blacks that were bumped for over three hundred years? Did they deserve slavery? Did they deserve the discrimmination that followed? I would say not. Why do you seem to be focusing on the poor bumped white person? If the current generation is benefitting from the sins of the previous generation, they deserve, and have to take a hit to balance things out. You seem to be forgetting something called balance in your arguements.


I believe in equality of these things, (not of the "toys" a person may accumulate):
Opportunity -- education, employment, right to live where you can pay the rent
Protection -- of basic survival, (food, shelter), of health, (health care), from violence, before the law, of expression, from gratuitous insult by commercial or public service providers
Civil responsibility -- the obligation to respect the law, your neighbors, to reciprocate the help you are received from society.I fully believe that when every individual enjoys these equalities, racism -- at least it's effects - will quickly become insignificant. In fact until then racism will tend to be perpetuated due to human nature that likes to blame the outsider for our misfortunes.

I believe in equality of ALL things including the toys one may accumulate. Why should one race have the ability to accumulate toys, while another does not? Equality should not have caveats.

Blacks nor Latinos do not enjoy equal education, equal employment, and they do not often get the right to pay rent(or a mortage) where they can afford to live. A fact pointed out very profoundly by Oprah and 20/20.

Blacks and latinos do not have the protections you list as they get less quality health care than whites, die younger than whites, less likely to have health insurance than whites, and have a lesser quality of life than whites. When that changes, it will address SOME of the inequalities that exist, but not all of them.


In essence if these the basic equalities I mentioned are delivered to all as individuals then equalities pertaining to a person's accidental group memberships are irrelevant. Race or gender-base AA is at best a surrogate, "quick fix" for more fundamental inequalities, (very much a "political" solution). At worse it is simply racist/sexist in and of itself.

Feanor, without gender or race based AA there is nothing to equalize the inequalities. Until America begins to look at individuals, and not their race, race and gender based AA is the only solution quick fix or not. To leave things just as they are in the name of not going into reverse racism or sexism, would mean just leave things as they are. If you think this is okay, then you are part of the problem and not the solution.

All it takes is a change of attitude from all parties. Everyone has to do something, and one culture is going to have to give something up whether they like it or not. Since things are so skewed one way, there is no other choice. Personally, I do not think it will EVER happen. Everyone wants to see things change, but a certain culture wants to see it done without any changes to the current situation so they do not have to lose a thing in the process. Some of the responses I have read reflect that profoundly.

Let's hurry up and change America, but lets do it without upsetting what we have now. Let's hurry up and change but nobody is responsible because we didn't create the system, we just benefit from it. Better yet, why don't all of the minorities stop all of the crying about being second class citizens and just except it. It would make the majorities live much easier if you did. :rolleyes:

The seeming irony is that if we believe that a person's race or gender is really irrelevant to their abilities, then we must ignore group membership when evaluating them.[/QUOTE]

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Obviously, I disagree with your position but I respect you point of view... Much of the difference in our points of view likely comes from the fact that we grew up in different times... I have worked in both Canada and the US and been on the diversity committee at my firm during that time... I know that one of the reasons I managed to get the chance to work in North America so easily, was because I am a black male under 30 and the firm was strongly pushing diversity (as are ALL of its major competitors in the industry)...

Ajani, did it ever occurred to you why you have to have a diversity committee in the first place? I would also venture to say that your youth(and I am not that much older than yourself) does not give you a time perspective, or anything really to compare what is better and what is not. I would be the first to say that things have gotten better since I have been in the workplace, but statistics show me that it is not good enough, and it is not happening fast enough. Ask yourself why companies are pushing diversity. Isn't it because they don't have it?


Your views sound much closer to that of my aunt and uncle in New York... They grew up in a different world from the one I grew up in... yes racism still exists... but times have changed dramatically and will continue to do so... One year from now, a Black Man may even be the President... Just 10 years ago that was thought to be impossible....

Yes times have changed dramatically, and so has the nature of racism. It has gone from something overt and in your face, to something covert, subtle and below the radar. You are experiencing racism perpertuated much differently than your uncle and aunt have experienced. This is why your perspective is different. I agree with you, things are getting better. But if you are satisfied with what they are now, then your bar is much lower than mine. Maybe this sounds idealistic, but I would like the world to be more like my family. Puerto ricans, cubans, blacks, whites, europeans coming together and getting along fantastically. My growing up was rich because of this, imagine how rich it would be for everyone if we didn't have this racism thing in the first place.

I think it is great that we may have a black President in less than a year. I have supported Obama financially, and with my vote as well. I have never been this excited about any election in all of my life. It pains me greatly that there are some in the middle of this country who will not vote for him because of nothing more than his race. If you think those people are not out there, you are in for a rude awakening. Why would a Hilary supporter not support Obama? It certain isn't their differences on the issues, because there weren't any.

I don't think we are so different on this issue, you think glass half full, I think glass half empty with the potential for a full glass.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You are seeking not equality but retribution. You are seeking to perpetuate racial/cultural separation, preferably with the roles reversed. I wish you no good luck achieving these things.

Feanor, congratulation for exibiting the typical textbook white male response. You call it retribution because you do not want to give an inch to the cause. If I wanted retribution, then I would like to see a white male hanging from a tree for looking at a black, asian or latino woman. Or minority only entrances everywhere. I would demand that blacks and latinos create gated communities that only they are allowed to buy into. It is not my interest to see that at all. I am solely interested in equality, which means under the current situation would require a huge rethinking of race, and that somebody is going to have to make room at a crowded table which may mean a loss of power for somebody. You are not going to acheive equality with the comments you have made so far, that is for damn sure.

You are all talk, naive and idealistic talk, but you are not prepared to put action with your talk. I am not asking for racial/cultural seperation, we already had that. What I know is that in order to acheive TRUE equality(not equality from SOME white person perspective which means no equality but business as usual) the majority will have to experience some lack, some disappointments, and will have to share power. Out of the fortune 500 companies, only 16 are ran by a woman or minority. Can this remain the same and equality acheived? I would think not. Somebody will have to make room so that EVERYONE has a chance.

For a person who claims to be from the left, you sure know that politics of the right well. You know, If you don't agree with my perspective, I am going to give you a negative label like racist. First, you obviously do not have a clue what the word racist means, so I will help you out so we can excise this out of this discussion.

Racism or racist=Discrimination or prejudice based on race. Well if that described me, then I would not have three best friends that are white. They are like brothers to me, and I would protect them with my life if I had to. I would not have Godchildren who were white(I am the Godfather to one of my friends three children), I would dislike my grandmother who played a huge role in my upbringing, she is a white British woman. Most of my friends at work are white, and some of the folks I socialize with just happen to be white. As a matter of fact, my circle of friends come from six different countries. I would hate being around my family which has white, black, latino(mostly) and europeans all in the mix. A terrible place for a racist isn't it? So before you ignorantly toss that negative label on someone, look in the mirrior because alot of what you have said here could be labeled racist as well. You slung that word around a little to loosely. Interesting enough, we have calmly, and with great restraint discussed this issue, exchanged our opinions, and we(with the exception of you) managed to do it without making this personal, or calling anyone any names even if we disagreed with their opinion. So far you are the only one who has managed to not be able to engage in this discourse without the immature act of calling somebody a negative name. As old as you are, you may need to grow up some more, or stay out of these kinds of controversial topics.



The whole notion that one racial group has to "make it up" to the other racial group is inherently racist and unjust because it forces mostly innocent individuals to pay off another, not necessarily harmed, individuals. The best you can and should hope for is equality going forward.

If this is the case, then why did our government give reparations to the Japanese and American Indians? The people that paid out the money didn't put them in camps, or kill off their population and steal their land did they.

This whole notion that a certain race can perpetuate so much harm on so many people, and walk away scott free is unacceptable. Any white person living in this country is a beneficiary of the comforts that racism in the past has given them. Its called white privilige, and you do not have to be a guilty racist to get it. If you do not think it exists, then hold your breath for the next head dive into the sand. It is well documented, and even your denial does not erase its existance. Maybe you need to read this again, though I think you'll just dismiss it as nothing like you already have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

I find your comments so insulting that its irritating. How can you say nobody was harmed? You have generations of blacks that were harmed by racism, did they do that to themselves? . Or how about latinos?
You are in denial, and you are in that state because you are ignorant of what its like to be a minority in this country. Your perspective is one deminsional, shortsighted, and overly simplistic. Its really hard to have a honest discussion on this issue with a person who is in denial. I bet its nice to look at all of this from the top down isn't it. You can just turn your head and refuse to look at what is happen just below you much like you already have.


It is not fair lumb all whites in the tiny elite of truly priviledged people. It is a fatuous notion that all whites are priviledged -- most of us aren't priviledge and we don't feel that way apart for a tiny minority of rich, flagellant liberals. It's your son who is going to Stanford, not mine. Seemingly it's just too convenient to be able to blame some other group for your own shortcomings. In my case, though, I have only the guy in the mirror to blame.

This is why your perspective on this is as shallow as a pool of spit on a sidewalk. Privilige isn't just for the rich. Privilige is a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor, and it does not have to be economic. I would say not being racially profiled is a benefit, advantage, and a favor. Its not something minorities enjoy. You do not have to look and act like another race to be promoted. That is a benefit, advantage, and a favor. You get the highest salary for doing the same job(very well documented). That is a benefit, advantage, and favor even if you are not rich. You have fair access to housing which is a benefit, advantage, and favor. You have access to loans with lower interest rates, and lower insurance for housing, cars, banking etc because whites are not victims of redlining, latinos and blacks are. That is a benefit, advantage, and favor. And the biggest benny, not to have to experience racism that negatively impacts your culture as a whole. This is a huge benefit, advantage and favor. So this you have to be rich to be priviliged is a red herring arguement designed minimize a big advantage in this country on just everyday things.

Rather than dismissing the link I provided, why don't you actually read it. It describes the advantages that whites have on everyday things, not the privilige of wealth which all races have if they are wealthy.

Lastly, you are damn right, I sent my children to good colleges. I earned the right to do so. When I started working in Hollywood, there were no latinos doing anything but the gardening and housekeeping. When I started at Paramount mixing film soundtracks, there were no blacks or latinos working there, and no white guy wanted to work with me because they thought I would affect their ability to make money. You see, it takes three people to mix a film soundtrack on the dubbing stage, not one. So I worked with two asian guys, and our dubbing stage made the most revenue out of all of the stages on the lot. So much for that won't make money foolishness. I have my masters degree, and if I didn't have that master degree, I wouldn't have gone as far as I have. So you are damned right, I am going to send my kids to the best college I can. Being educated is a great hedge against racism, this I know personally.

If we go for your best hope, it will be generations before we see any real changes. You may have that long to wait, but my children do not.

IMO denial is as bad a racism itself. You have denial down pat feanor. And in the future, keep your negative labels to yourself, they do not help anything. You are calling me a racist just to hide your indifference. I call this deflection, something that is not helpful when trying to deal with tough issues. The fact that you are living in a country with a completely different history and reality, and think you know the answers for here is the height of arrogance IMO. The answers you have given are perfect for maintaining the status quo, but entirely unhelpful in solving this issue. Sweeping it under the table has been done already Feanor, so you will have to do better than that.

[Ajani]

This whole notion that a certain race can perpetuate so much harm on so many people, and walk away scott free is unacceptable. Any white person living in this country is a beneficiary of the comforts that racism in the past has given them. Its called white privilige, and you do not have to be a guilty racist to get it. If you do not think it exists, then hold your breath for the next head dive into the sand. It is well documented, and even your denial does not erase its existance. Maybe you need to read this again, though I think you'll just dismiss it as nothing like you already have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

.................

Rather than dismissing the link I provided, why don't you actually read it. It describes the advantages that whites have on everyday things, not the privilige of wealth which all races have if they are wealthy.

I read the link and I agree with it... BUT I must point out that 'White Privilege' is not racism (as said in the link... see quote below).... and I believe that we can address all of the issues noted in the article in a manner that does not require punishing all current whites for the sins of the past generations...


White privilege is a sociological concept which describes advantages enjoyed by white persons beyond what is commonly experienced by the non-white people in those same social, political, and economic spaces (nation, community, workplace, income, etc.). It differs from racism or prejudice in that a person benefiting from white privilege does not necessarily hold racist beliefs or prejudices themselves. Often, the person benefiting is unaware of his or her privilege.

1) Wealth - programs designed to aid the poor regardless of race gender or sexual orientation, specifically by allowing them to get a good education, will erase the wealth advantage of rich families...

2) Justice - this is a 2 part plan... 1 part involves encouraging our youth not to commit crime in the first place ... the 2nd involves publicizing the unequal treatment of white and minorities by the justice system... Apart from member (and potential members) of the KKK, I don't think any white person would be opposed to minorities getting equal treatment (shorter prison sentences, not being searched and racially profiled, etc..) to them... Also it would help to show who the real racists are (which I believe is a small percentage of the total population)...

3) Employment and Economics... I think more and more employers are already covering their backsides, by creating diversity committees and initiatives... instead of mandating that they MUST do these things, we should seek to applaud and encourage the ones who do... and give them business.... this will encourage more companies to follow suit... people are afraid of what they don't understand (know).. so once they get used to working with minorities, it will stop being an issue...

4) Housing.... same plan as employment and economics... reward financial institutions that afford the same interest rates, etc... to minorities as they do to whites... also publicly highlight the ones that don't... same thing with any 'exclusive' white housing communities...

5) Education.... rather than accuse the system of being designed to keep minorities uneducated, effort should be spent to determine what kind of teaching style/counseling would best address the needs of these students... (For the record I don't support teaching in anything other than standard English though - since this is a global economy and English is the language of international business and America)...

I believe that the majority of people are not racist and would not object to dealing with real issues of privilege (as long as the tone of the discussion is not accusatory and offensive)...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I read the link and I agree with it... BUT I must point out that 'White Privilege' is not racism (as said in the link... see quote below).... and I believe that we can address all of the issues noted in the article in a manner that does not require punishing all current whites for the sins of the past generations...

This unfortunately does not describe past sins, the articles describe current trends. My question to you is if it is punishment for the current generation to pay for past sins, then why in 1988 did congress inact the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 to pay for the Japanese internment in camps during WWII? The war began in 1942 and ended in 1945. Based on your logic, why should anyone have paid in 1988? Or what about reparation for American Indians, why give them free education, tax breaks, and revenue from gambling? Nobody currently living has harmed them. I am not advocating reparations by any means, but it just seems a little inconsistant to give it to one group, and deny another.

Playing devils advocate here;


1) Wealth - programs designed to aid the poor regardless of race gender or sexual orientation, specifically by allowing them to get a good education, will erase the wealth advantage of rich families...

These kinds of programs would not be wide open to anyone. There are always some kind of enrollment limits that will keep someone on the sidelines. In order to be truely effective, it will have to serve a huge amount of people(the amount of poor have grown quite substantially in the last decade), which is costly, the logistics for implementation would be huge, and there is still criteria that would have to drawn up that tells who is qualified. This is going to take a long time to plan, and require a huge amount of resources. I can see racism rearing its ugly head in this plan as well. Anything that requires some subjective judgement is a prime target for some cry of racism if significant amounts of any one race are enrolled.


2) Justice - this is a 2 part plan... 1 part involves encouraging our youth not to commit crime in the first place ... the 2nd involves publicizing the unequal treatment of white and minorities by the justice system... Apart from member (and potential members) of the KKK, I don't think any white person would be opposed to minorities getting equal treatment (shorter prison sentences, not being searched and racially profiled, etc..) to them... Also it would help to show who the real racists are (which I believe is a small percentage of the total population)...

They have been pointing out the unequal treatment in our justice system for years, and quite frankly nothing has been done, and things are getting worse. Publicizing it more would just be like putting a note on a wall, after a while folks won't see it anymore, it becomes part of the wall. What do you do when your youth do not committ crimes, and are still arrested? While this has already been tried, I am open to see it tried again. I just do not have high hopes for good results based on past experience.



3) Employment and Economics... I think more and more employers are already covering their backsides, by creating diversity committees and initiatives... instead of mandating that they MUST do these things, we should seek to applaud and encourage the ones who do... and give them business.... this will encourage more companies to follow suit... people are afraid of what they don't understand (know).. so once they get used to working with minorities, it will stop being an issue...

If a person is not used to working with minorities now(they have been in the workplace for decades) what makes you think they will get comfortable in the future? They should already be comfortable working with minorities, its not something new. I would applaud companies that had diversity already in place without any prodding from the government to cover their butts. Their intentions are pure and deliberate, and it shows a true desire for diversity. I can name several hotel management companies that have diversity programs in place, but do not employ a single minority in lower, mid or senior level management. It used to be that way at the studio I work for as well. So in some cases just having a program doesn't guarantee any level of success. In the end, it boils down to the true desire of the HR departments to acheive diversity, not a program to keep the government off their backs. Companies only respond to these types of things when their bottom line is affected.


4) Housing.... same plan as employment and economics... reward financial institutions that afford the same interest rates, etc... to minorities as they do to whites... also publicly highlight the ones that don't... same thing with any 'exclusive' white housing communities...

The fair housing act of 1968 was supposed to deal with this issue. It is largely regarded as a failure due to lack or spottie enforcement. Some twenty years later it was still in practice, especially in the inner cities, and while things have improved somewhat, the nature of the discrimination has radically changed into a more subtle act, much like racism in general.


5) Education.... rather than accuse the system of being designed to keep minorities uneducated, effort should be spent to determine what kind of teaching style/counseling would best address the needs of these students... (For the record I don't support teaching in anything other than standard English though - since this is a global economy and English is the language of international business and America)...

An immigrant to this country with a foreign langauge as a first language would find your last statement racist, and would put them at a severe disadvantage. How would they learn english without being prompted in their original language? A global economy would require that you learn more than one language(something I support), as you cannot assume english will be spoken at a meeting in France. My cousin(from Britain) has a degree in International economics, and he learned five different languages. While my spanish is questionable at times, my kids are fluent in spanish.

When you have classroom sizes in access of 30 students, it becomes very difficult to create custom teaching methods(which are definately needed as everyone does not learn the same way) for each student. So unless you cut class sizes(which is expensive as California is learning), it becomes impossible to evalute on an individual level. It is difficult to get the federal government to support school as they are(disfunctional or not), how do we get them to provide the enormous amount of resources it would take to implement your proposal. The do not have these kinds of resources at the local level, so the feds would have to contribute.


I believe that the majority of people are not racist and would not object to dealing with real issues of privilege (as long as the tone of the discussion is not accusatory and offensive)...

The threshold of what is accusatory and offensive is different for each individual. Who decides where the line is drawn?

While I believe the majority of people are not racist, everyone has biases that effect their perspectives about others.

For decades many folks have been trying to deal with the issue of privilige. Efforts have been largely ineffective, because nobody is really ready to tackle this complex and entrenched practice. Most importantly, some folks do not want to give of the benefits that privilige brings.

I wish you had presented some truely unique suggestions, but everything you have laid out has already been tried before, and with mixed or genuinely poor results. To deal with our complex social issues, it may require a degree of ingenuity that we have not used before. The words "thinking outside the box" are totally applicable in this instance because thinking in the box(which is what we have done) is not going to work(as we have already seen). I personally do not think you can legislate something that really requires a different individual thought process. Can you really legislate someones personal beliefs right or wrong? This is going to require that EVERYONE change their way of thinking when it comes to race. That is really the only way we are going to see some meanful change.

[Auricauricle]

Contact!

Touch!

Talk!

Look!

Sniff!

Listen!

Contact!

Simple!

[Xoote]

gas prices are horrible

[Auricauricle]

Yep, I'm a fish.....Reel me in....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yep, I'm a fish.....Reel me in....

Do you fry well?

[Auricauricle]

Sorta like Mr. A. Belew once said, "...like a breakfast at the Egg House, a waffle on the griddle: I'm burnt around the edges but I'm tender in the middle"...

Does that answer yer question?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sorta like Mr. A. Belew once said, "...like a breakfast at the Egg House, a waffle on the griddle: I'm burnt around the edges but I'm tender in the middle"...

Does that answer yer question?

Rather succintly:blush2:

[bobsticks]

This is going to require that EVERYONE change their way of thinking when it comes to race. That is really the only way we are going to see some meanful change.

Slowly, too slowly true, but slowly this is changing. I think integration through company functions, social functions and marriage/cohabitation among the younger generations is bringing down some walls. Methinks the more chances folks have to rub elbows, for good or ill on an individual basis, for the greater cause things get better. And as a sidenote, the next time someone thinks about protesting the NEA the Arts are one of the greatest tools for creating appreciation between cultures. Go to Jazz Fest or any decent art gallery and tell me if we don't all share some of the same struggles through our human condition.

One hopeful phrase to keep in mind is that "demographics are destiny". For most younger folks this is not as big an issue as it is for older folks. Also, as people of ethnic bloodlines continue to procreate and intermix at a faster rate than whites they become less of a "minority" (in the mathematical sense) which should lead to a greater representation in the government and a larger pool of succesful wage earners. Affluence and power, after all, begets affluence and power.

Plus, a whole lotta kids are sleeping exclusively with kids from another race...it seems to be de rigeur. Perhaps one day the difference between "hues" will be negligible though history makes that doubtful.

Business has a way of inadvertently bestowing legitimacy and relevence through it's own greed. As companies, particularly retail and service-oriented, have recognized the "Latino" dollar and the "African-American" dollar in an attempt to maximize profits they have ipso facto acknowledged these communities as strong market forces. I don't think "King" magazine could have been successful ten or fifteen years ago.

As an aside, the Sticks prediction of the day, a few years from now...let's say six...the hot topics of the day will be classs stratification and euthenasia. I guar-un-tee it, yes I do. Mark it down. As dollars get tighter more and more young people, especially the product of single parent households are gonna wonder why they're eating Ramen noodles while every old person for whom they hold an abandonment issue is collecting Social Security (which they'll never see) or dribbling down their bibs in a retirement home---while there's still no universal healthcare. It's gonna be like frikken Pol Pot in the U.S. I tells ya.

If Kevorkian were smart he'd be mass producing them machines and storing 'em in some warehouse in Oregon...if he's already not.

[bobsticks]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

This afternoon I finally got around to reading this in its entirety and, at this risk of contadicting Feanor's opinion of me as a flagellated liberal, this is why left-wing social scientists shouldn't write position papers unless they have someone to the right of Gloria Steinem edit it.

I firmly concede the five points that Ajani has so deftly encapsulated in his earlier post. I agree too that there are as many problematic issues facing us in these areas as any twenty other categories of social equality combined. Frustrating and worthy of discussion, down and dirty, to be sure but "self image"?? This is where liberals always drop the ball, they put forth insightful and righteous arguments and end it with a position so whiny it begs mockery...incessant steps on the academic johnson, as it were.

No human being is responsible for your (another's) self image save you and on occasion mom and Great Aunt Esther who smells like eucalyptus and slips a quarter in your ear. Pull up your pants, turn your hat around and get an effin' job and when your done help sombody less fortunate than you. It ain't that hard.

God, that crap makes me crazy. It's no wonder the Democratic Party is a less viable political entity than the Postal Union.

[thekid]

Sticks-Did you just go postal........... :)

[bobsticks]

Sticks-Did you just go postal........... :)

self-lol, no bud, it's just that I consider myself a fairly liberal cat and it makes me nuts when these wankerish geeks publish this whiny crap that derails legitimate arguments 'cause folks get lost in the feckless meandering.

Ya gots to seperate the stuff from THE STUFF.

[thekid]

self-lol, no bud, it's just that I consider myself a fairly liberal cat and it makes me nuts when these wankerish geeks publish this whiny crap that derails legitimate arguments 'cause folks get lost in the feckless meandering.

Ya gots to seperate the stuff from THE STUFF.

I hear ya.....

I consider myself a moderate but on those rare occasions (like when I am marooned in an airport and can't change the channel) when I catch Hannity & Colmes on TV I sit there and think; can't the liberal side produce anything better than Colmes?? But then I remember that Colmes is there to make Hannity look intelligent....... :D

[Rich-n-Texas]

"flagellated liberal"

???

Is that a liberal with intestinal distress?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Slowly, too slowly true, but slowly this is changing. I think integration through company functions, social functions and marriage/cohabitation among the younger generations is bringing down some walls. Methinks the more chances folks have to rub elbows, for good or ill on an individual basis, for the greater cause things get better. And as a sidenote, the next time someone thinks about protesting the NEA the Arts are one of the greatest tools for creating appreciation between cultures. Go to Jazz Fest or any decent art gallery and tell me if we don't all share some of the same struggles through our human condition.

I absolutely agree with you here. I had high hopes for this generation until the gen 6 incident in Louisiana. It was then I realized that we still have quite a ways to go in this area, even amoung the younger generation. If you think a jazz fest will garner a racially diverse audience, you should check out a gospel concert, or a gospel workshop.


One hopeful phrase to keep in mind is that "demographics are destiny". For most younger folks this is not as big an issue as it is for older folks. Also, as people of ethnic bloodlines continue to procreate and intermix at a faster rate than whites they become less of a "minority" (in the mathematical sense) which should lead to a greater representation in the government and a larger pool of succesful wage earners. Affluence and power, after all, begets affluence and power.

I absolutely agree with this!


Plus, a whole lotta kids are sleeping exclusively with kids from another race...it seems to be de rigeur. Perhaps one day the difference between "hues" will be negligible though history makes that doubtful.

I am noticing this trend as well. I am a product of this, and so are my kids. The blending thing makes nice babies:cornut:


Business has a way of inadvertently bestowing legitimacy and relevence through it's own greed. As companies, particularly retail and service-oriented, have recognized the "Latino" dollar and the "African-American" dollar in an attempt to maximize profits they have ipso facto acknowledged these communities as strong market forces. I don't think "King" magazine could have been successful ten or fifteen years ago.

The only bad thing in this is that you have to identify a market by race. What ever happened to the plain "American" market, where there is no reference by race?


As an aside, the Sticks prediction of the day, a few years from now...let's say six...the hot topics of the day will be classs stratification and euthenasia. I guar-un-tee it, yes I do. Mark it down. As dollars get tighter more and more young people, especially the product of single parent households are gonna wonder why they're eating Ramen noodles while every old person for whom they hold an abandonment issue is collecting Social Security (which they'll never see) or dribbling down their bibs in a retirement home---while there's still no universal healthcare. It's gonna be like frikken Pol Pot in the U.S. I tells ya.

There is also gonna be some of us who realize that the government will never fix social security, and we are going to have to rely on ourselves. So they will do like I did and get into the stock market while young, and begin saving and investing on their own.



If Kevorkian were smart he'd be mass producing them machines and storing 'em in some warehouse in Oregon...if he's already not.

Doesn't he have a warehouse in Hollywood already?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"flagellated liberal"

???

Is that a liberal with intestinal distress?


No its a liberal with his intestines flapping in the breeze.

[Ajani]

This unfortunately does not describe past sins, the articles describe current trends. My question to you is if it is punishment for the current generation to pay for past sins, then why in 1988 did congress inact the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 to pay for the Japanese internment in camps during WWII? The war began in 1942 and ended in 1945. Based on your logic, why should anyone have paid in 1988? Or what about reparation for American Indians, why give them free education, tax breaks, and revenue from gambling? Nobody currently living has harmed them. I am not advocating reparations by any means, but it just seems a little inconsistant to give it to one group, and deny another.

Playing devils advocate here;



These kinds of programs would not be wide open to anyone. There are always some kind of enrollment limits that will keep someone on the sidelines. In order to be truely effective, it will have to serve a huge amount of people(the amount of poor have grown quite substantially in the last decade), which is costly, the logistics for implementation would be huge, and there is still criteria that would have to drawn up that tells who is qualified. This is going to take a long time to plan, and require a huge amount of resources. I can see racism rearing its ugly head in this plan as well. Anything that requires some subjective judgement is a prime target for some cry of racism if significant amounts of any one race are enrolled.



They have been pointing out the unequal treatment in our justice system for years, and quite frankly nothing has been done, and things are getting worse. Publicizing it more would just be like putting a note on a wall, after a while folks won't see it anymore, it becomes part of the wall. What do you do when your youth do not committ crimes, and are still arrested? While this has already been tried, I am open to see it tried again. I just do not have high hopes for good results based on past experience.




If a person is not used to working with minorities now(they have been in the workplace for decades) what makes you think they will get comfortable in the future? They should already be comfortable working with minorities, its not something new. I would applaud companies that had diversity already in place without any prodding from the government to cover their butts. Their intentions are pure and deliberate, and it shows a true desire for diversity. I can name several hotel management companies that have diversity programs in place, but do not employ a single minority in lower, mid or senior level management. It used to be that way at the studio I work for as well. So in some cases just having a program doesn't guarantee any level of success. In the end, it boils down to the true desire of the HR departments to acheive diversity, not a program to keep the government off their backs. Companies only respond to these types of things when their bottom line is affected.



The fair housing act of 1968 was supposed to deal with this issue. It is largely regarded as a failure due to lack or spottie enforcement. Some twenty years later it was still in practice, especially in the inner cities, and while things have improved somewhat, the nature of the discrimination has radically changed into a more subtle act, much like racism in general.



An immigrant to this country with a foreign langauge as a first language would find your last statement racist, and would put them at a severe disadvantage. How would they learn english without being prompted in their original language? A global economy would require that you learn more than one language(something I support), as you cannot assume english will be spoken at a meeting in France. My cousin(from Britain) has a degree in International economics, and he learned five different languages. While my spanish is questionable at times, my kids are fluent in spanish.

When you have classroom sizes in access of 30 students, it becomes very difficult to create custom teaching methods(which are definately needed as everyone does not learn the same way) for each student. So unless you cut class sizes(which is expensive as California is learning), it becomes impossible to evalute on an individual level. It is difficult to get the federal government to support school as they are(disfunctional or not), how do we get them to provide the enormous amount of resources it would take to implement your proposal. The do not have these kinds of resources at the local level, so the feds would have to contribute.



The threshold of what is accusatory and offensive is different for each individual. Who decides where the line is drawn?

While I believe the majority of people are not racist, everyone has biases that effect their perspectives about others.

For decades many folks have been trying to deal with the issue of privilige. Efforts have been largely ineffective, because nobody is really ready to tackle this complex and entrenched practice. Most importantly, some folks do not want to give of the benefits that privilige brings.

I wish you had presented some truely unique suggestions, but everything you have laid out has already been tried before, and with mixed or genuinely poor results. To deal with our complex social issues, it may require a degree of ingenuity that we have not used before. The words "thinking outside the box" are totally applicable in this instance because thinking in the box(which is what we have done) is not going to work(as we have already seen). I personally do not think you can legislate something that really requires a different individual thought process. Can you really legislate someones personal beliefs right or wrong? This is going to require that EVERYONE change their way of thinking when it comes to race. That is really the only way we are going to see some meanful change.

I don't see those options as having failed.... all of them have/are workng... just slowly... it has taken many generations to reach where race relations are now... and it will take several more to get to an ideal (though never perfect) stage...

As for the issue of teaching foreign languages... I am 100% for encouraging people to learn another language.... however, I still feel that anyone who intends to permanently reside/be a citizen of a country MUST speak the national language.... So I support teaching foreign immigrants english, but not teaching them (Math, Physics, etc) in their native languages... However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having French, Spanish etc language classes to expose native english speakers to other languages and cultures...

[Ajani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

This afternoon I finally got around to reading this in its entirety and, at this risk of contadicting Feanor's opinion of me as a flagellated liberal, this is why left-wing social scientists shouldn't write position papers unless they have someone to the right of Gloria Steinem edit it.

I firmly concede the five points that Ajani has so deftly encapsulated in his earlier post. I agree too that there are as many problematic issues facing us in these areas as any twenty other categories of social equality combined. Frustrating and worthy of discussion, down and dirty, to be sure but "self image"?? This is where liberals always drop the ball, they put forth insightful and righteous arguments and end it with a position so whiny it begs mockery...incessant steps on the academic johnson, as it were.

No human being is responsible for your (another's) self image save you and on occasion mom and Great Aunt Esther who smells like eucalyptus and slips a quarter in your ear. Pull up your pants, turn your hat around and get an effin' job and when your done help sombody less fortunate than you. It ain't that hard.

God, that crap makes me crazy. It's no wonder the Democratic Party is a less viable political entity than the Postal Union.

There is a reason why I didn't touch the 'self-image' point... "In theory" it is a valid point... because I have friends and family from so many different races and cultures, I can see how the notions of what is beautiful have impacted so many of them... Black, Asian and Indian cultures all have the notion that fair complexion is prettier than Dark... long flowing hair is beautiful etc... this standard of beauty is changing, however, and is no longer universal...

In Practice however, talking about self-image really is just whiny and pointless... when I was Toronto, it was clear that many women I knew (from all races) were only looking for white guys... now I could have cried racism and how this hurt my self-image, if not for the fact that there were also many women (of all races) who were more attracted to darker exotic looking men like myself...

And finally as you said: "No human being is responsible for your (another's) self image"...

But the other points in the article were good points....

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I don't see those options as having failed.... all of them have/are workng... just slowly... it has taken many generations to reach where race relations are now... and it will take several more to get to an ideal (though never perfect) stage...

I do not know what your benchmark of success is, but it is certainly below mine. The fair housing act was instituted in 1968, and there is still housing discrimmination, and still redlining. If it has been 40 years since the policy was inacted and we still have basically the same results(but more subtle), I would say either the will isn't there, or the law is a failure. AA was inacted in 1961, and is already being dismantled piece by piece before the purpose of the law is fullfilled. The real beneficiary of AA so far has been white women, not people of color. While I personally believe that race relations have somewhat improved, progress is still difficult to measure because of the covert, subtle nature it has taken on rather than the overt in your face that it used to be.

Unlike yourself, I am not a pie in the sky type. I see things for what they are, not what I want them to be. I do not stick my head in the sand so as to not see what is going on around me.


As for the issue of teaching foreign languages... I am 100% for encouraging people to learn another language.... however, I still feel that anyone who intends to permanently reside/be a citizen of a country MUST speak the national language.... So I support teaching foreign immigrants english, but not teaching them (Math, Physics, etc) in their native languages... However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having French, Spanish etc language classes to expose native english speakers to other languages and cultures...

We do not disagree here.

[bobsticks]

T, I'm glad you clarified yourself on the English thang. I agree with your and Ajani's position as well...fer a minute I thought you and I were gonna have to get jiggy wid it and I was fully prepared to pull out this ol' chestnut...


"We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one soul [sic] loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."

That's Theodore Roosevelt and the cultural pretext behind that of which big Teddy was sprechen was the assimilation of European immigrants into mainstream "American" society. Interestingly, The President cautioned against the use of hyphenated identifiers preceding the very word "American". Ahead of his time, eh?

We all recognize that the media has a huge role in determining what the public considers "acceptable, hot, hip, now..."etc. and as for the beauty thing, I suspect that simple numbers and business demographics have done as much to pigeonhole concepts of beauty as past social norms. I mean to say that if, in the past, the majority of subscribers were white than it goes to follow that editors were going to choose white models. I think as the nature of people's relationships and social opinions have changed that we've seen an opportunity for a larger segment of the country's population to be objectified in print and on the television...from "respectable" magazines like Cosmo and Vogue to hardcore porn everybody's gettin' a turn at the plate.

Maybe Naomi Wolff would disagree with me and I could be completely wrong. All I know for sure is she's the only hot feminist I've ever seen...and I'm readin' yer mail on the whole
"just plain 'American' market" but you know how we like to keep everything neat and tidy in it's own category. I don't consider Ken Salazar or Barack Obama any less American than I am...maybe Obama's wife...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one soul [sic] loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."

Unfortunately Theo's words are not, and have never been taken seriously. Here in Cali, and all over the place I would imagine, we have a problem with immigrants coming here, huddling together, and creating mini versions of the country they originated from. Like a Chinatown in just about every city, or little Bangalore in Fremont, California, or little Mexico city in South Central LA and the Mission district here in SF.

When I first moved to LA, I lived in the Mid Wilshire area just outside of what they call Korea Town(see what I mean?). Every sign in Korea Town was in Korean, so I never knew I lived within a block of a dry cleaner until I saw the door open one day, and some customer paying for their dry cleaning. My Aunt refuses to move out of spanish harlem even though she can afford to do so because she says she says she feels like she is back in Puerto Rico there. However she complains over and over about the crime there and how it is not safe. I told her she moved away from Puerto Rico to grow up, and if she stays in Harlem, she is proving that she DOESN"T want to grow up. She finally moved because she got my point.

Keep in mind we also have government pamphlets in spanish, Chinese, tagalog, and several other langauges aside from english, so our government isn't paying much attention either.

I tell the students I mentor they should NOT sit at the table with other latinos, but sit at tables with students from other races so they can get an understanding of how other cultures interact with each other. This kind of interaction can go a long way to gaining a understanding of other cultures, which prevents the kind of ignorance that feeds racism. I also implore them to make as many friends outside of their race for that very same reason. I do strongly encourage them to speak spanish, and do other cultural things at home, but to encourage their non english speaking parents to learn english.

One of the worst things immigration has brought to this country is the sensibilities that immigrants had in their own country. For instance, a dislike of our American holidays because they do not jive with their own cultures. I can no longer say Merry Christmas for fear of offending cultures that do not celebrate Christmas. That pisses me off to no end. We no longer have a Christmas party, we have a holiday party. We are suffering an erosion of our own traditions just to be PC to folks that immigrate here, instead of encouraging them to share in the celebration.

IMO, there is no longer an American culture, its is now just a mismash of the different cultures that have immigrated here. In saying that, I am not backing down from my comments about Americans learning other langauges, something they are quite behind the rest of the world in doing.

I am afraid our desire to be PC has caused us to ignore the wise words of Theo.

If you feel froggy about gittin jiggy wit it, leap man!!! I can hang. LOL

[bobsticks]

If you feel froggy about gittin jiggy wit it, leap man!!! I can hang. LOL

LOL, I know ya can bruh, I know ya can.


One of the worst things immigration has brought to this country is the sensibilities that immigrants had in their own country. For instance, a dislike of our American holidays because they do not jive with their own cultures. I can no longer say Merry Christmas for fear of offending cultures that do not celebrate Christmas. That pisses me off to no end. We no longer have a Christmas party, we have a holiday party. We are suffering an erosion of our own traditions just to be PC to folks that immigrate here, instead of encouraging them to share in the celebration.

This would be the sharp, defining point where my liberalism ends...that place at which the tyranny of the minority oppresses the reasonable majority. There seems to be an awful lot of people stumbling around this country in a haze of misunderstanding, falsely-assured that there is some kind of legal or constitutional right to not be offended.

I'm all about peeps celebrating their diversity and doing the things that make them happy...but don't be messin' with my X-Mas...cuz like everything else it's all a matter of degrees and about intent.
I have these characters that work for me that, as it happens, are Muslim immigrants from Africa. Great guys, great workers, the get-along-go-along types...I always get reports that they're the first to adopt any new initiative and champion it...the kinda cats you wanna have at work and, frankly, the kinda cats you just wanna have around. Last year on a tour, one of 'em walks up to me, grasps both hands and wishes me a "Happy Ramadan", and as he's saying it the very genuine smile that he has disappears and he starts stammering that he's sorry. I grasped his hand back and thanked him...it just seemed right.

Looking back on that it's because his intent was pure. He was genuinely wishing me well, wishing me peace in the spirit of brotherhood. If I'd have looked deeper into it at the time I should have felt even more complimented. In any case, it just seems like there's enough suffering in the world with the homeless and the undereducated and real, true cases of descrimination that folks shouldn't look for resentments to carry when someone is just trying to be pleasant and kind.

I've encountered this too when outside work and I've erroneously wished someone a "Merry Christmas" and they respond with the "I will not!" or whatever gibberish. I've even had one lady call me an infidel, which I thought was crunk as hell 'cause I always wanted to be an infidel growing up. My usual response goes something like, "Obviously I apologize for wishing any happiness for you", though in my mind, oft as not, I'm urinating on them.


---sticks (having a lava lamp and trailer park moment)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

LOL, I know ya can bruh, I know ya can.

Sticks, you know I ain't gonna mess wit ya bruh! You my homie dawg LOL




This would be the sharp, defining point where my liberalism ends...that place at which the tyranny of the minority oppresses the reasonable majority. There seems to be an awful lot of people stumbling around this country in a haze of misunderstanding, falsely-assured that there is some kind of legal or constitutional right to not be offended.

I'm all about peeps celebrating their diversity and doing the things that make them happy...but don't be messin' with my X-Mas...cuz like everything else it's all a matter of degrees and about intent.
I have these characters that work for me that, as it happens, are Muslim immigrants from Africa. Great guys, great workers, the get-along-go-along types...I always get reports that they're the first to adopt any new initiative and champion it...the kinda cats you wanna have at work and, frankly, the kinda cats you just wanna have around. Last year on a tour, one of 'em walks up to me, grasps both hands and wishes me a "Happy Ramadan", and as he's saying it the very genuine smile that he has disappears and he starts stammering that he's sorry. I grasped his hand back and thanked him...it just seemed right.

Looking back on that it's because his intent was pure. He was genuinely wishing me well, wishing me peace in the spirit of brotherhood. If I'd have looked deeper into it at the time I should have felt even more complimented. In any case, it just seems like there's enough suffering in the world with the homeless and the undereducated and real, true cases of descrimination that folks shouldn't look for resentments to carry when someone is just trying to be pleasant and kind.

I've encountered this too when outside work and I've erroneously wished someone a "Merry Christmas" and they respond with the "I will not!" or whatever gibberish. I've even had one lady call me an infidel, which I thought was crunk as hell 'cause I always wanted to be an infidel growing up. My usual response goes something like, "Obviously I apologize for wishing any happiness for you", though in my mind, oft as not, I'm urinating on them.


---sticks (having a lava lamp and trailer park moment)

Lava lamps are cool man. Watch out for tornados in that trailer park though. LOL

We had a major Kerfuffle here at Disney studios a few years ago when the post production department planned a Christmas party and was told by HR we had to call it something else as to not offend others that do not celebrate the holiday. The department majorly balked, and I mean MAJORLY. We claimed that we were being offended by watching more than 300 years of tradition drowning in a sea of PC. We complained that we have had Christmas Parties for years, in spite of having people with backgrounds all over the world within our department. The blowout got all the way to HQ, and it was VERY ugly. You had the folks on this side saying no way, no how for a Christmas party, and the other side saying their traditions are being violated by other sensibilities, and their sensibilities are overrulling ours. They had to send a representative from HQ to the studio to try and mediate that whole mess. We got to keep our Christmas Party, and those that didn't believe in Christmas, they didn't have to attend. It has created some lasting ill feelings though which is a shame. Alot of folks where having their patriotism and alligance questioned, and other folks were being accused of being racist. I do not think we have quite recovered from the incident, as there are still folks who hate other folks because of it.

I do not see what the problem was, I just wanted them to pass me my brandy and egg nog drink and leave me the hell alone.

[bobsticks]

... and other folks were being accused of being racist...

Well "dduuuhh". It's a well-known fact that only four non-white people currently celebrate Christmas: an Obama speechwriter, Jimmy Smits, the guy that played Carlton on "Fresh Prince" and Kim Il Jung, sellouts one and all. Clearly, if you support Christmas you're a rascist bastard.

The point about crying wolf has already been made so I won't belabor the point, but smh...nahmean.


I do not see what the problem was, I just wanted them to pass me my brandy and egg nog drink and leave me the hell alone.

BAM!!That's the key to life right ther, mah dawg. My life got qualitatively better when, in order, I concerned myself with my own general welfare and happiness, tried to help others promote their general welfare and happiness, and stopped trying to control how they went about it.

I think my liberalism comes from a different place than a lot of folk's...rising up from a massive streak of anti-authoritarianism, a yellow flag with a big-ass snake on it and mah middle finger in the air.

[3-LockBox]

Every election year I'm reminded of what Dennis Miller said long ago:

"The choice of candidates for this year's presidential election is comparable to a heterosexual male going into an adult bookstore and trying to pick out the least painful dildo."

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well "dduuuhh". It's a well-known fact that only four non-white people currently celebrate Christmas: an Obama speechwriter, Jimmy Smits, the guy that played Carlton on "Fresh Prince" and Kim Il Jung, sellouts one and all. Clearly, if you support Christmas you're a rascist bastard.

The point about crying wolf has already been made so I won't belabor the point, but smh...nahmean.



BAM!!That's the key to life right ther, mah dawg. My life got qualitatively better when, in order, I concerned myself with my own general welfare and happiness, tried to help others promote their general welfare and happiness, and stopped trying to control how they went about it.

I think my liberalism comes from a different place than a lot of folk's...rising up from a massive streak of anti-authoritarianism, a yellow flag with a big-ass snake on it and mah middle finger in the air.

You freakin rebel with a clause...LOLOL. Sticks you are off the grid dude.

[bobsticks]

I'm not sure that was meant to be nice...

...and sarcasm doesn't suit you mi amigo.

Just for that, when we roll you gotta eat the worm.

[Ajani]

Unfortunately Theo's words are not, and have never been taken seriously. Here in Cali, and all over the place I would imagine, we have a problem with immigrants coming here, huddling together, and creating mini versions of the country they originated from. Like a Chinatown in just about every city, or little Bangalore in Fremont, California, or little Mexico city in South Central LA and the Mission district here in SF.

When I first moved to LA, I lived in the Mid Wilshire area just outside of what they call Korea Town(see what I mean?). Every sign in Korea Town was in Korean, so I never knew I lived within a block of a dry cleaner until I saw the door open one day, and some customer paying for their dry cleaning. My Aunt refuses to move out of spanish harlem even though she can afford to do so because she says she says she feels like she is back in Puerto Rico there. However she complains over and over about the crime there and how it is not safe. I told her she moved away from Puerto Rico to grow up, and if she stays in Harlem, she is proving that she DOESN"T want to grow up. She finally moved because she got my point.

Keep in mind we also have government pamphlets in spanish, Chinese, tagalog, and several other langauges aside from english, so our government isn't paying much attention either.

I tell the students I mentor they should NOT sit at the table with other latinos, but sit at tables with students from other races so they can get an understanding of how other cultures interact with each other. This kind of interaction can go a long way to gaining a understanding of other cultures, which prevents the kind of ignorance that feeds racism. I also implore them to make as many friends outside of their race for that very same reason. I do strongly encourage them to speak spanish, and do other cultural things at home, but to encourage their non english speaking parents to learn english.

One of the worst things immigration has brought to this country is the sensibilities that immigrants had in their own country. For instance, a dislike of our American holidays because they do not jive with their own cultures. I can no longer say Merry Christmas for fear of offending cultures that do not celebrate Christmas. That pisses me off to no end. We no longer have a Christmas party, we have a holiday party. We are suffering an erosion of our own traditions just to be PC to folks that immigrate here, instead of encouraging them to share in the celebration.

IMO, there is no longer an American culture, its is now just a mismash of the different cultures that have immigrated here. In saying that, I am not backing down from my comments about Americans learning other langauges, something they are quite behind the rest of the world in doing.

I am afraid our desire to be PC has caused us to ignore the wise words of Theo.

If you feel froggy about gittin jiggy wit it, leap man!!! I can hang. LOL

We see eye to eye on this one....

Mix and Mingle.. Damnit... Mix and Mingle....

My belief remains that people are afraid of what they are unfamiliar with... So make sure to have as many friends from different races and cultures as possible and encourage your kids and friends to do the same... don't discourage yourself, friends or children from dating and marrying other races and cultures.... Integration is the cure for fear of the unknown...

If you never have any real interaction with someone from another race or culture, then it is quite likely that you may have serious misconceptions (or even prejudices) about those people... and when I say interaction, I Don't mean that the guy you ordered a burger from at BK was a minority or the guy in the mailroom who you never talk to or look in the eye...

One of the things I have always engouraged people to do when the go to another country, is to try and embrace some of the cultural/social norms... rather than just looking to find people who come from the same country as you, to hang out with... Hanging out in just your own racial/cultural circles merely creates an us versus them atmosphere and keeps race relations tense...

On the language front... I remember throwing a party at my place back when I was in Toronto... and a couple of my Philipino friends started having a conversation in Tagalog... and I 'politely' had to remind them that only English is allowed in my house....
(unless I'm trying to learn another language and the person is teaching me)..... Interestingly, most people understand that whispering at a table/public event is considered rude, but so many don't realize that speaking in another language, that not everyone at the table understands, is just as rude and exclusive

[Auricauricle]

If I can jump in fer a moment or two, the dialog that Sir T. and Sticks are having reminds me of a conversation--if you can call it that--I enjoyed about a year or so ago. I was in the local medical school library looking up research when I happened upon an article dealing with racism and "open mindedness". The premise that was borne out in the literature supporting it was that "open mindedness" and racism are mutually exclusive. I had a big yawn and thought "Du-uh", and fired off a riposte to the author as fast as my fingers were oiled up and ready for some typing.

As a man of the South, whose family has owned slaves in the past and was ever mindful of our strange legacy, the spectre of racism is always in my mind. Even as I walk through the city, there are reminders everywhere of our sordid history and our reluctance at embracing the future, which is all but certain and is paved with many bumps and dips. A few years ago, there was a big flap about the "rebel" flag, a symbol whose significance has been dumbed down to represent intolerance and divisiveness. Antipathy and vehemence dominated the issue, and not one voice of reason could advocate or dispute it, and so the flag continues to fly and be emblazoned on licence plates, where it will likely remain. In the meantime, the idiots who have a constricted view of history and those sore enough to resent the past and lick the wounds of silent masochism will continue to dance like sharks, waiting for the final lunge that tears them both apart....

Although I was not born, nor continue to be, color-blind, I was raised to remember my lucky circumstances and to be ever mindful of those less fortunate than myself. I may be accused of a certain arrogant noblesse oblige, but in this self reflection and mindfulness, colors and distinctions have never really held much sway for me.

As I read the paper I described earlier, I realized that color, sexual-preference, country of origin and other distinctions are simply heuristical instruments that are used to facilitate "us-other" distinctions. These distinctions are made as we compete for resources and dominance. Whether we are describing the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, the Whites and Blacks in America or the Jews and the Arabs in the Middle East, it's all been about one people pitting themselves against another because of land, oil, cotton or whatever. The rest--religion, racism, or whatever--are strawman props that obscure the real issues.

The cure, and I think you guys have said it too, is to get in touch with one another. Earlier, I posted this rather terse and silly thing that started with the word, "Contact". Yet, that post was addressing this very point. Until we have looked each other in the eyes and seen each other's pain and joys; until we have listened to each other and spoken with each other; until we grasp each other by the hands and learned that it is all simply epidermis, we will be foreigners to each other. Like the particle that is pushed at random by the effects of Brownian Motion (no pun), we will collide and interact randomly and with no regard and no progress....

So again, I say, "Contact....!"

Just the opinions of a proud old Southerner who's too old and too tired to deal with the bull___.

--Peas and carrots!

[GMichael]

my Philipino friends started having a conversation in Tagalog... and I 'politely' had to remind them that only English is allowed in my house....


Wish that would work with my wife. She's always yelling chit at me that I have no clue what she's saying. When I ask her cousin what she said, she just smiles, and says she doesn't know. Yeah right. My normal response is to walk over to the phone and start hitting the "1" button. Wifey doesn't think I'm funny at all.:prrr:

Not to get off topic, but did anyone notice that gas came down about 10 cents/gal this week?

[Auricauricle]

Not to get off topic, but did anyone notice that gas came down about 10 cents/gal this week?

Ooooh, better filler up right now, huh?

[Ajani]

Not to get off topic, but did anyone notice that gas came down about 10 cents/gal this week?

Talking about the actual premise of this thread is 'off topic'? LOL...

[Ajani]

Wish that would work with my wife. She's always yelling chit at me that I have no clue what she's saying. When I ask her cousin what she said, she just smiles, and says she doesn't know. Yeah right. My normal response is to walk over to the phone and start hitting the "1" button. Wifey doesn't think I'm funny at all.:prrr:

lol... I suspect your wife's intent is to be rude to you at those times...

[Auricauricle]

"Number '1' button"?

Huh....?

[GMichael]

"Number '1' button"?

Huh....?

"Welcome to our automated phone service. Please press 1 for English. 2 for Spanish. 3 for Chinese." 4 for Klingon. 5 for Pig Latin. etc.

[Ajani]

"Welcome to our automated phone service. Please press 1 for English. 2 for Spanish. 3 for Chinese." 4 for Klingon. 5 for Pig Latin. etc.

Fan-I-Van-E Fan-O-Ran Pan-I-Gan Lan-A-Tan-I-Nan? Que Cool!

[Rich-n-Texas]

I don't get it. :confused:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Wish that would work with my wife. She's always yelling chit at me that I have no clue what she's saying. When I ask her cousin what she said, she just smiles, and says she doesn't know. Yeah right. My normal response is to walk over to the phone and start hitting the "1" button. Wifey doesn't think I'm funny at all.:prrr:

Not to get off topic, but did anyone notice that gas came down about 10 cents/gal this week?

When my wife used to go off on a tangent, I would tell her "Vea mujer sé lo que usted está diciendo", translated to "Look woman, I know what you are saying". I didn't stop her from going taco's on me, but at least she knew she wasn't getting anything over on me.

I never leaned how to deal with the waving hands and flying hair though.

[Ajani]

I don't get it. :confused:

ivefay orfay igpay atinlay? Etterbay

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Fan-I-Van-E Fan-O-Ran Pan-I-Gan Lan-A-Tan-I-Nan? Que Cool!

Atsthay otnay igpay atinlay!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

ivefay orfay igpay atinlay? Etterbay

Good pig latin, do you speak pigin too? Hawaiians want to know.

[Rich-n-Texas]

ivefay orfay igpay atinlay? Etterbay
Ooooooooooooohh. Now I get it! :D

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ooooooooooooohh. Now I get it! :D

It took you long enough ya big dummy($1 to Fred Sanford)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Can't help it, I haven't spoken Pig Latin in a long time. Come to think of it, I haven't been to County Pig in a long time.

[Auricauricle]

Sow hat?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm just sayin'...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'm just sayin'...

Qué estás diciendo?

[bobsticks]

... She's always yelling chit at me that I have no clue what she's saying. When I ask her cousin what she said, she just smiles, and says she doesn't know...

That is exactly the kind of relationship for which I search. Frankly, I'm looking for some type of sedative to retard the progression of my little lambchop's English.

The other night she showed up unexpectedly on laundry night and I proceeded to, well, do laundry. I was informed in terms I understood far to clearly that this type of male insensitvity was unacceptable. I recognize that averting one's attention for an entire thirty seconds is kinda bastardly but the whole thing would have been much easier resolved if the invective were conducted in Mandarin.

[Ajani]

Qué estás diciendo?

no hablo español ¿Habla puerco latín?

[bobsticks]

... when I happened upon an article dealing with racism and "open mindedness". The premise that was borne out in the literature supporting it was that "open mindedness" and racism are mutually exclusive.


The premise is incorrect. There's a third state, "apathy". It's quite possible to be a complete dickhead independent of the victim's ethnicity, sexual preference, etc. I prove it everyday, just ask anybody who's encountered me before my first cuppa joe.