Jolida

[Bigmoney]

Hello, I am set on buying a tube integrated and furthermore have decided on jolida to be the manufacturer. Can anyone reccommend a jolida model that is best under a grand used or new. I will use this to power my b and w dm 602's and possible another undetermined speaker I replace them with. I am seeling my rotel amp, mint condition, owned less than 3 months for 700 dollars, and my preamp also mint and of the same age for 350, and will sell them as the pair for 975 plus shipping. If interested let me know. What do you think about jolida integrateds and the options I have.

[blackraven]

Here's a link to some jolida equiment http://responseaudio.com click on retail product line

If your looking at hybrids, you should consider the Vincent Audio hybrid power amp and keep your preamp. The vincent amp has gotten great reviews and is supposed to give a nice analog sound.

[blackraven]

Here's a link to the Vincent Hybrid amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331

I have been considering this amp.

[Feanor]

Here's a link to the Vincent Hybrid amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331

I have been considering this amp.

I must say, that does sound kickass, blackraven.

And their SA-31 preamp (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISA31) could be a good match, especially at the price.

[Bigmoney]

I have to say I am pretty much set on buying an integrated, as I think they are the better value and the need for space. I think because of a single chassis and common ground and also a single power cord and pair of interconnects needed it is the best way to go. I am strongly considering the shanling a300, which I know brett owns and loves. I elieve it has a tube pre section and runs in dual mono at 200 watts. Also good deals can be found on this amp for around a thousand new! It is hard to find reviews on this integrated but it looks and seems awesome on paper. Any other reccommendations for 1000 dollar integrated tube, or very warm sounding SS.

[Feanor]

I have to say I am pretty much set on buying an integrated, as I think they are the better value and the need for space. I think because of a single chassis and common ground and also a single power cord and pair of interconnects needed it is the best way to go. I am strongly considering the shanling a300, which I know brett owns and loves. I elieve it has a tube pre section and runs in dual mono at 200 watts. Also good deals can be found on this amp for around a thousand new! It is hard to find reviews on this integrated but it looks and seems awesome on paper. Any other reccommendations for 1000 dollar integrated tube, or very warm sounding SS.

If you can get an A3000 (which I think you mean) for $1000 from a reputable source, maybe you should go for it. The going online price seems to be $1700.

Personally I have found that it's true about the tube sound, and a hybrid design is an effective tube/solid state compromise. The Shanling uses 6922 tubes and the are lots of varieties of this specification; this allows for lots of fun tube rolling -- and different tubes do make a difference, (more so than interconnects in my experience).
...

[Bigmoney]

Any warm tube or ss integrateds you can reccommend in my price range. Go to nysound.com and ull see the shanling for 900 bucks. Funny, you reccomended the vincent for me because thats my name haha.

[RGA]

I would probably go with the Jolida 302B. Hybrids are typically designed for people who have speakers that are not designed for tubes - the owner realized the speakers have serious problems and want some sort of FIX in the treble. It is better to buy a speaker designed for tubes and then you can get an all tube amp taking full advantage of tubes not just 50%

I would also recommend the Antique Sound Labs line as they seem a bit better built and offer more features for similar money. The AQ 1003 DT would be the direct competitor of the 302B http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html
review http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1204/aslaq1003dt.htm

If you're willing to build a kit the Audio Note Kit 1 pretty much sets the standard for the price range http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0805/audionotekit1.htm

Cayin has been getting huge talk on other forums and is certainly worth checking out http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0707/cayin_a_50t.htm

If you're willing to buy used then the Manley Stingray would be worth your while http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0500/stingray.htm - This with the AN Kit 1 would be my first choices - but alas more expensive choices.

[Bigmoney]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

[RGA]

Shanling is a bit more style over substance - their cd player is the only thing I've heard and is on par with cd players for half its price. But they look great and all things considered isn't the worst thing - but you'd want to listen without your eyes to make sure you're not buying on sex appeal. The Audio Note Kit one is perhaps the ugliest tube I can think of so you certainly won't be buying on looks there - really they could make it look a little nicer. The Manly is designed by a woman - one of the few in the audio industry and it looks quite excellent - they make less expensive tube amps as well but I don't know them.

I'm pretty familiar with B&W and interestingly they don't require tons of power - all of the tube amps I mention will be more than enough for the 602S2 or 602S3. In fact the best sound I ever heard from the N801 was with an 11 watt SET. Yes 11 measly watts. The amps was about $8,000 from a company out of Australia who I can;t remember. The problem was it could not play loud enough to warrant the combined $22k. The 602S3 however is more than fine with 25 watts - it will play very loud.

89db sensitive and reasonable loads (not too much under 3.5ohms dips) will be no trouble for any of these amps.

Of course High efficiency speakers are always something to consider because you have far greater amp choices. My amp is 10 watts but in fact is really only distortion free to 4.2 watts. My speakers are a modest 93db sensitive min 5ohms) but there are many things to consider than just the numbers - driver material box designs crossovers.

Generally speaking lower powered tube amps prefer simplicity - one or two way loudspeakers no long throw woofers, lighter materials like good paper or hemp woofers as opposed to rigid polypropolene or Kevlar. But there are exceptions - the 602 is pretty good here and one of my favorites under $1k. I actually think it's a much better line than the 700 series.

Ultimately watts are truly damaging to the audio world - peopel are so caught up looking at numbers but something like the Sugden a21a class A amp will drive well most of today's loudspeakers and it is 25 watts per channel. It takes ten times the power to play twice as loud - ie 250 watts. And how many speakers can take 250 watts? Not many.

As for specific suggestions it's tough because Klipsch is the only mainstream brand I can think of and their horns are not always desirable for people.

Omega Loudspeakers I have not heard but they are an interesting option as they are a one driver speaker - making them a tube amp dream - they're revered in a number of circles for budget loudspeakers. The Audio Note AX Two is killer good standmount under $1k (the AN E Kit would be ideal but a bit pricey I suspect) The AN E is the best speaker I have heard in 20 years so it's hard not suggest them. You're going to see this speaker a lot over the years to follow as several of the review publications have gotten on board. Hi-Fi Choice has been using them as reference speakers for over 15 years, Stereophile has two reviewers who have them, Hi-Fi News, the Audio Critic, enjoythemusic, Dagogo all have several reviewers with them. They sell them as a kit or in over ten versions all upgradeable. Their designed for SE tube amplifiers.

HOWEVER, their all kinda ugly and fussy. Reference 3a is another good one but prices go up.

High efficiency speakers done well is expensive unfortunately - part of the reason manufacturers don't do them.

Here are some links to speakers
The AX Two http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue23/myaudio.htm
Omega http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html

Most horn speakers like tubes as well so whatever is in your area may hold something of interest to you. All that said the 602 with a 20-30 watt tube amp should easily be enough. 10 is enough if you're not a bass hound or head banger.

[basite]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

I too would recommend the tube integrateds he mentioned above over the shanling, and especially over the vincents (which are even more style over subtstance IMHO), the vincent amps I heard did go very loud and had alot of power, but they lacked all the magic that is supposed to be there with good products, the sound had no soul.

my personal choice would go to the Manley, btw... :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bigmoney]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

[Feanor]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

In response to your questions:

I don't know. Then again I'd recommend a hybrid over a pure tube amp.
Sure, especially with low power such as from 30-50 watt tube amps.
Tubes can last many thousands of hours that is, for a decades of use, but it depending on the particular circuit design. Replacement is usually easy if the tubes are socketed, this is usually but not always the case. Looks like the Vincent, for example, uses a soldered-in tube; of course its design might ensure a very long life span. The other consideration is the tube specification: some tube types are rare, others, e.g. the 6922 used in the Shanling A300, are very common.

[Ajani]

Guess I have three final questions.
1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.
2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.
3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

Two more questions you might want to ask:

4. How much does it cost to replace the stock tubes (when they wear out) with ones of similar quality?

5. How often would you likely have to replace the tubes?

[audio amateur]

If it's just for the amp, I don't think high pass filtering will make a heck of a difference. On top of that you'll need the sub, which you also have to pay for.

[Bigmoney]

As I mentioned earlier I would be willing to buy a subwoofer. All in all I just want a warm musical integrated for unde ra thousand, that being the reason I thought a integrated might suit my needs. I would be open to ss integrateds but it needs to be warmer sounding and muscial. I thought the shanling would be a good compromise betweeen solidstate and tube but I was kinda turned off by what rga had to say about style over substance, after all I want my moneys worth in quality. I am getting rid of the rotels because they are to harsh and analytical for my tastes plus I will be in college next year and would rather and all in one component for space.

[audio amateur]

As I mentioned earlier I would be willing to buy a subwoofer. All in all I just want a warm musical integrated for unde ra thousand, that being the reason I thought a integrated might suit my needs. I would be open to ss integrateds but it needs to be warmer sounding and muscial. I thought the shanling would be a good compromise betweeen solidstate and tube but I was kinda turned off by what rga had to say about style over substance, after all I want my moneys worth in quality. I am getting rid of the rotels because they are to harsh and analytical for my tastes plus I will be in college next year and would rather and all in one component for space.
If you're getting rid of the rotels because of their sound, don't take our word on these amps, you should go listen to some in-store.

[Feanor]

What are some speakers made for tubes? Do you reccommend the tube integrates you mentioned over the shanling?

The usual advice is to choose your speakers, then choose the amp to drive them. As for the B&Ws, the current model 683 is fairly efficient at 90bB from 2.83V at 1m. It is likely that the modest tube amps will drive them to adequate volumes for most types of music most of the time, but if you're a hard rocker, maybe not.

The other question is what if you decide you really like a speaker that has, say, a 86dB efficiency? Suddenly you need more than twice the power to get the same volume. Would you then be willing to trade your amp as well as your speakers at the same time?

[Bigmoney]

True, if I was going to go ss or hybrid which would you choose between the shanling and the musical fidelity a3.5 which I can get for around the same price. Looks like for now I am stuck with the 602s as the mains but I will be upgrading them to whatever suits my new integrated best once graduation rolls around and I save some more coin. Possibly the audio not as mentioned above,

[RGA]

bigmoney

Good questions you're asking.

1. Is the manley worth the exra cost (used) over a jolida used or new. The manley is twice the jolidas at both their retail prices.

Quality costs money in some cases - whether the Manley is worth it or not to you only you can judge and you have to listen to determine that. I try not to don't judge prices until after I hear the particular unit. Whether a speaker, room, your ear, is capable of revealing the differences is also a factor. The Jolida and the ASL have subwoofer outputs - not sure about the Manly. Audio Note believes subwoofers deter from the sound, i agree, so likely not on theirs.

2. Given the low power of the amps would I benefit from a subwoofer to high pass the mains and relieve the amp from the deep bass. Im sure a lot of people must have considered this.

yes but that's because they have speakers not designed for tubes and should not be using them. So long as the speaker is relatively easy to drive and is 2 way 2 driver or less system you should have no trouble. The 602 does not have deep bass and the Jolida or ASL have more than enough power. Both of these have a subwoofer output as well so the point is moot - the powered sub has its own amp.


3. Lastly, I hear tubes are less reliable than ss, if I was to have to replace a tube would I be able to given I have never used tubes before. Guess I am saying are tubes difficult to take care of it you have never used them before.

Tubes amps in some ways are more reliable - if a tube amp blows it is easier and cheaper to fix - generally the tube goes and you replace it. If the main board of a SS goes up you need a whole new amplifier. That said both are unlikely to blow up. The most expensive part of a tube amp is the transformer and they are costly to replace. Jolida's track record is not super IMO. A dealer in Vancouver had the 202a in continuously for repairs and 3 times I went in to audition it and it failed. My Antique Sound labs is 8 years old and still on the stock tubes and no problems.

Tubes are more fussy depending on the tube. Some self bias requireing no work whatsoever. The advantage of the Audio Note and SETs is that they require no biasing meters - pull tube out stick new one in (like a light bulb) and it's that easy. Some Audio Note tube cd players are rated for 100,000 hours or 24 hours a day for 11+ years. With the jolida and the ASL you need a voltmeter and follow their instructions every time a tube is replaced. You have to be somewhat careful. The ASL has the meter built right onto the amplifier making things much easier. Also when one power tube goes it is recommended to replace all 4 for a matched quad. But you can see how much tubes cost when shopping for an amp.

The Manley uses EL 84 tubes which are less costly to replace than EL 34s and EL84s tend to last twice as long as well. Though neither are that expensive - around $10.00 for EL84s and maybe $20 for EL 34s (both go up from them there). So if a tube goes and you replace the lot you're looking at $40 - $70 to replace all 4 power tubes. http://thetubestore.com/

the voltmeter thing really only needs to be done when you replace tubes - it takes about 5minutes and every 3-8 years depending on tube life and how much you listen.

There are a lot of tube sellers so getting a hold of tubes should be easy. Part of the fun is tube rolling.

[Feanor]

True, if I was going to go ss or hybrid which would you choose between the shanling and the musical fidelity a3.5 which I can get for around the same price. Looks like for now I am stuck with the 602s as the mains but I will be upgrading them to whatever suits my new integrated best once graduation rolls around and I save some more coin. Possibly the audio not as mentioned above,

I've hear neither of them. If you can compare them in the same system, either in a showroom or at home, then you would have some basis of comparison.

If I'm not mistaken, the A3.5 was recently discontinued by Musical Fidelity which would explain how it's going for $800. Without hearing them together, if some one put a gun to my head and said,"Choose", I'd pick the MF on the basis of the longevity of the manufacturer and eventual resale value.

[RGA]

Unlike Feaner, though he makes a valid point, I would not be buying an amplifier for its resale value - because why would I buy an amp in the first place if I were prepared to re-sell it. I have been roundly unimpressed with every Musical Fidelity amplifier over the last 15 years. If the 3.5 is discontinued all I can say is that it was a long time coming. They had a dedicated tube amp line (Tivista or Nuvista or something) that was quite a bit better but more expensive.

Ideally you want to go through a dealer who can repair the items in store. ASL has been around for over 15 years and they have a lot of dealers and support. There is no fear buying from them. Jolida and Audio Note has been around for a long time 25 and 30 years respectively.

The 302B is 50 watts more then enough power and so is the ASL AQ1003DT.

it takes twice the power to get a largely unnoticable 3db gain in volume level. Ie you would need 100 watts to get a 3db gain in volume level.

SS power is unnecessary.

This is a simple power guide: If i have 93db sensitive loudspeakers versus the standard 87db standard loudspeakers the power requirements are as follows:

93db speaker
1 watt = 93db (this is deemed as being LOUD) with just one watt - most listening is done under 85db no even requiring 1 watt.
2 w = 96db
4w = 99db
8w = 102db (Very loud - ear damaging loud)
16 = 105db
32w = 108db
64w = 111db (concert levels)
128w = 114db
256w = 117db (most speakers can not handle 256 watts - check the speakers but most handle between 50 and 150 watts making 114db the maximum for most - less actually).

87db speaker

1w = 87db
2w = 90db
4w = 93db (matches what the 93db speaker does with 1 watt)
8w = 96db
16w = 99db
32w= 102db
64w= 105db
128w = 108db (the ASL 30 watter with 93db speakers does what a typical 125 watt amp does with typical mainstream speakers)
256w = 111db (again most speakers can't handle 250 watts and won't therefore be able to go to 114db).

in other words a 30 watt amp with 93db speakers will play as loud as an 87db speaker with a 125 watt amp. Watts is NOT volume - the speaker has just as much impact if not more on loudness capability. Most listening at the listening chair is around 70-85db.

As you can see in most cases anything above 30 watts is selling numbers that are unnecessary and often sound worse. They thin out the bass lines with high negative feedback which is mistaken for tighter bass when in fact it's just leaner and fatiguing.

[Bigmoney]

Audio Amateur you said If I am getting rid of the rotels because of their sound dont listen to everyone why do you say that. I didnt think rotels were know for warm sound in fact I thought the opposite.

[Feanor]

...
...
it takes twice the power to get a largely unnoticable 3db gain in volume level. Ie you would need 100 watts to get a 3db gain in volume level.
...

87db speaker

1w = 87db
2w = 90db
4w = 93db (matches what the 93db speaker does with 1 watt)
8w = 96db
16w = 99db
32w= 102db
64w= 105db
128w = 108db
...

As you can see in most cases anything above 30 watts is selling numbers that are unnecessary and often sound worse. They thin out the bass lines with high negative feedback which is mistaken for tighter bass when in fact it's just leaner and fatiguing.

This doesn't jive with reality however. For one thing the volumes above are take at 1 meter; from a quasi-point source like a dynamic driver, the volume decreases as the cube of the distance. Granted most driver are perfect point sources and most listening rooms aren't anechoic chambers, nevertheless volume is much less at 8 or 9 feet. What's more, the practical experience is amps require more power than these number suggest. Most people report significant dynamic improvement going to more powerful amps.

I will allow that few speakers actually require 200+wpc in a medium sized room, but I'm hesitant to recommend amps of less than 100 wpc to anyone who wants the flexibility to change speakers without having to worry about amp power at the same time.

[RGA]

Feaner

Perhaps you should actually experience it rather than read about it. My speakers are a modest 93db sensitive and are placed in corners - technically farther from the listening chair than free standing speakers. I have a 10 watt amp. I'll be happy to demonstrate in a normal listening room how much bass and volume is capable real world for you with a ten watt amp.

As a point of reference I also own a set of loudspeakers that are capable of 120db and I can make a person leave the room in pain. So I am pretty well versed on volume capability of the 93db and 10 watt amp I have versus the 95db 160watt Bryston set-up I have had in my room. Granted the latter will play louder obviously but the real question is why is one buying the system - obviously not for sheer brute volume. With the first system it Sounds vastly better and plays to a level where my keyboard bounces and painting fall off the wall. The latter system pushed might crack the plaster too but there becomes a point where music appreciation is completely lost with high volume levels.

From a technical standpoint you are correct that spl is lost with distance but 90db at the listening chair is LOUD folks and the power levels above (with room gain) is still easy to maintain with 10 watts - 30 watts used to be considered beastly until the marketers got a hold of it.

When I heard it for the first time I was amazed - quite an eyeopener.

With high efficiency speakers you can run every amplifier - HE speakers give you far more options when buying amplifiers. And HE speakers usually sound better to boot.

[RGA]

I don't know if you have London Drugs in your part of the world but there is a company called VUUM Audio and they appear to have a and OEM DARED MP 7 amplifier for $399.

The DARED is a $1500.00 tube amp and the Vuum appears to be the exact same amplifier. London Drugs is a chain in Canada selling the VUUM The amp (made in China). They're selling them pretty fast on the Canadian boards - several people have been snapping them up.

http://www.vuumaudio.com/AMP.htm

You can see the similarity here under the name Dared http://www.dared.gr/display.php?lang=EN&model=MP-7

It also goes under the name Fatman 182
http://www.fat-man.co.uk/docs/product/itube_182_1.htm

The London Drugs price was $800.00 but they seem to be on clearout as it's not really a high end place. Worth a look. It's probably under the name Dared in the US as they seem to be the company making them all for other outfits.

You can read a bit about it from a fellow who bought it here http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8725&start=15

Might be one of those rare good deals.

And he was listening with Totem a far harder speaker to drive than B&W.

Actually I rechecked - it is closer I think to the same looking Dared MP 15 which is $1200 MSRP but selling for $850 - still the Vuum version appears to still be half off which is a good deal --- IF it sounds good. I liked the VTi Apple Dock Vuum set-up so if "THE AMP" is good it could still be a winner.

For that matter may as well look into Dared amps - pretty solid name as well. It's also a USA company and some people care about such things. http://www.dared.us/products.htm

[Feanor]

Feaner

Perhaps you should actually experience it rather than read about it. My speakers are a modest 93db sensitive and are placed in corners - technically farther from the listening chair than free standing speakers. I have a 10 watt amp. I'll be happy to demonstrate in a normal listening room how much bass and volume is capable real world for you with a ten watt amp.

...

You're back and in good form I see.

Please, I have 35 years of audio experience; are you even 35 years old? I don't need to be told by you (or anyone else) to listen instead of read.

My 86dB speakers need 5 times the power of your 93dB speakers. I've driven my speakers with a 50 wpc amp: they sounded good :smile5: Now I drive them with a 120 wpc amp: they sound better. :D

[audio amateur]

I agree with you both, but I think power is good for headroom. I also feel that in some cases amplifiers with minimal power do not help the speaker to 'blossom' if you like

[daviethek]

I must say, that does sound kickass, blackraven.

And their SA-31 preamp (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISA31) could be a good match, especially at the price.

I had this pre amp for a while and I question if it is a good match with anything. The low price tag was tempting and led me to the purchase but in time I was dissapointed with its somewhat muddled mid-range and to a lesser degree but noticeable lack of detail. I hear very good things about the power amp though.

[basite]

I had this pre amp for a while and I question if it is a good match with anything. The low price tag was tempting and led me to the purchase but in time I was dissapointed with its somewhat muddled mid-range and to a lesser degree but noticeable lack of detail. I hear very good things about the power amp though.


I have heard good things about the amp too, but after having heard most of their gear, I kinda lost interest...
meaning they didn't sound that good...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[RGA]

You're back and in good form I see.

Please, I have 35 years of audio experience; are you even 35 years old? I don't need to be told by you (or anyone else) to listen instead of read.

My 86dB speakers need 5 times the power of your 93dB speakers. I've driven my speakers with a 50 wpc amp: they sounded good :smile5: Now I drive them with a 120 wpc amp: they sound better. :D

That's correct but we're not talking about your 86db loudspeakers we're talking about HE speakers that require 5 times less power. I agree - most every LE speaker I have ever heard i always always always want to put a more powerful amp on and put the volume up to get any kind of dynamics and bass - and usually the speaker compresses before I am satisfied. One major reason not to own LE loudspeakers - with the exception of panels I've yet to hear a LE speaker that I would own or really even liked.

35 years experience maybe so but you have a belief that a 10 watt amp with 93db speakers is going to have trouble with bass and volume - and experience or not you missed out on this experience - and so have a lot of people. Practically speaking if you came away from listening to my AN J (not even their top bass speaker) with their 8-10 watt amps and you directly compare it to a very robust Wilson Sophia and top of the line most powerful Krell amplifiers you would walk away stunned and with a lot more money left in the bank to buy a better car.

With 86db speakers - and real world probably less with most free standing designs I would not buy a tube amp. This poster does not have 86db speakers though.

[Bigmoney]

I am a bit confused. Is a tube amp with 50 watts enough for me, I guess like everything else in audio it is controversial but someone has to be right. All I am looking for is a warm dynamic integrated under a thousand. I really like the idea of tubes and they sound like they would be fun even if I have to take care of them a little more than a ss amp. Has anyone heard the plinius 8100, people rave about it on the gon, not sure if it was mentioned yet on this thread.

[blackraven]

Plinius makes great equipment, I've heard one of their highend amps with some thiels but I cant remember the model.

Why dont you keep your Rotel amp and buy a Tube preamp. I think that a tube or hybrid preamp will give your the sound your looking for and therefore wont have to worry about power.

Another option for a warmer more analog sound would be to go with the Marantz 8001 SACDP.
It has a nice warm analog sound and would be much better than your 5001.
Your rotel equipment is very good and the 8001 should match very well with the rotels.

[Bigmoney]

Issue is that I will be going away to college this coming year and do not want to have separates for the sake of space. I like the idea of a single pair of interconnects as well. As for the8001 that would require me keeping my equipment which I need to finance my next purchase. Although I am against keeping my separates are you convinced my amp and a tube pre would be sonically beter and resolve my issue. The idea I like about intgrates is that I dont have to worry about matching amp and pre where as synergy could an issue in pick a tube pre amp. Real quick question I wanted o throw out there, how much better are the b and w 685's than the previous 602s

[blackraven]

I think you will have alot more versatility with a separate amp and pre amp. I think that a nice warm sounding preamp will give you the warm sound that you are looking for without having to replace your amp.

As far as the 685's vs the 602's. There a many people that think the earlier series sounded better. I bought a pair of 602's for rear channel and loved the sound, more so that the 686 and 685's. I ended up returning them because I decided to go without rear speakers, but I wish I had kept them for my bedroom.

[RGA]

The others are correct about versatility - the problem is all tube amp set-ups SOUND better than hybrids specially in this kind of price range.

You have to listen. The AQ 1003 DT has more than enough power for the 602S3 and the AQ is 30 watts.

Heaven people are running 10 watt amps with 4 ohm 85db Totems and raving about the results. More power always comes at the expensive of sound quality - UHF in one of their books recommended not buying amplifiers with a damping factor over 40 due to the higher negative feedback - that pretty much means all SS amp over 70 watts.

30 watts is not low powered - it is deemed that due to marketing and ONLY marketing. They sure have conned a lot of people because this comes up far too often.

It's a shame you're not in BC. because you could listen to the B&W with Jolida, ASL, Rotel and Bryston then you'd know that the power numbers are largely irrelevant. People like the big power amps that add a bunch of treble grain so they can run around calling the spittle ssssshhh noise air around instruments. A sound that the amp is bringing that has no relationship to real music or the sound of a live event in any way shape or form.

There is one downside to tubes and that is that they blow. I turned on my amp today and crackle pop from the right channel - dead tube or tubes - hopefully not worse. But that's the price you pay. I don't regret it one bit.

i could have for the same money purchased a separate preamp and power amp from Bryston with a 20 year warranty. The price you pay for tubes is that they go and you have to sit without your music system until I get it serviced etc. They're a big pain in the arse - but the sound is so vastly better than solid state that I will put up with this.

At least all of the amps you're looking at have easy to access tubes. My amp has some weird screw and I have no screwdriver to match - damn Brits and their weird screws. I'll probably have to bring the whole thing in and have all ten tubes replaced. OTOH now is the time to make the tube upgrade I've been wanting to make.

[Bigmoney]

I have nearly decidedon going with a tube integrated. To me, I gather that most people findthem delightful and those who don't tend to have different tastes than I do for my system. Ih have been looking at the primaluna prologue two or one or the joilda 302b or502b. From what I can tell the biggest difference between the jolida 302b and 502 b is power, do you think the additional 10 watts is worth the cost?My biggest concern though is maintenance. I don't want to have to repair the thing all the time and constantly fall victim to the expense of new tubes. How often do you have to replacee tubes on average and do you think tubes on average come with a high maintenance expense if take care of properly?

[Bigmoney]

I failed to mention my other concern about tubes. All things in life usually involve compromise, with tubes and ss it seems like quality versus quantity. While I do hold quality far higher than quantity on imprtance I would still like to be able to crank up the volume if I desire. Can a tube handle high volume well, or am I sadly out of luck.

[Ajani]

BM, have you had a chance to listen to a tube Integrated yet? I strongly suggest that you audition one before spending your money. The only way to find audio products that really will satisfy you is to audition for yourself.

[blackraven]

BM, listen to Ajani! I auditioned some paradigm S6's and Studio100's a few months ago with a jolida amp and I still thought that the paradigms sounded too bright.

If you go with a tube amp of 40wpc it will be more than enough to power your speakers.
I still believe that a tube preamp is the way to go.

[Bigmoney]

No I haven't heard a tube amp before, but have read many reviews. I unserstand though that experiencing something for yourself is the best way to make a decision. Reason, is that I have not found the opportunity, my b and w dealer, the only dealer I am aware of around here carries nothing but marantz, rotel, and krell. Dont really know where I could go for an audition. I went to jolidas website but they have no link to find the nearest dealer. Same goes for primalunas site. What does one do if they cannot demo equipment?

[audio amateur]

No I haven't heard a tube amp before, but have read many reviews. I unserstand though that experiencing something for yourself is the best way to make a decision. Reason, is that I have not found the opportunity, my b and w dealer, the only dealer I am aware of around here carries nothing but marantz, rotel, and krell. Dont really know where I could go for an audition. I went to jolidas website but they have no link to find the nearest dealer. Same goes for primalunas site. What does one do if they cannot demo equipment?
What I meant about not listening to the others, was, rather than solely taking their advise (which i'm sure is good), you should also listen to some stuff in-store (tube stuff aswell, now that we're at it), as Ajani has recommended.

[Feanor]

I failed to mention my other concern about tubes. All things in life usually involve compromise, with tubes and ss it seems like quality versus quantity. While I do hold quality far higher than quantity on imprtance I would still like to be able to crank up the volume if I desire. Can a tube handle high volume well, or am I sadly out of luck.

Do tubes give a "higher quality" sound. Personally I haven't really decided myself, although I am a tube user; (I have a tube preamp).

Tubes might well yield a more pleasant, even more life-like, but not necessarily a more accurate sound. I suspect there is a valid analogy is to retouching a photograph.

When you retouch a photograph you do so for two reasons:

Dust, lens flair, or some other imperfection in the photography process has cause an imperfection that you want to correct for;
You photographic subject has imperfections, e.g. wrinkles, that you want to hide.By removing imperfections of either type are you creating a more "accurate" photograph? No, but you might end up with a much more agreeable one.

Tubes are fine amplification devices especially, (as I understand), for voltage amplification, but not so much for current amplicition. However tubes are also tend to produce more distortion than solid state devices. Especially they produce so-called low-order and even-order harmonic distortion. This sort of distortion is pleasant sounding, creating an impression of "fullness", "bloom", or "warmth". By contrast, solid state designs, especially those that use a lot of negative feed back to reduce overall harmonic distortion, at the same time create a lot of high- and odd-order harmonics that is are unpleasant sounding.

My guess, (though I don't know and can't prove it), is that tubes mainly work by insinuating pleasant distortion. The pleasant distortion also disguises unpleasant distortion created at other, solid state stages of the amplification chain. Thus I suspect is strong analogy to photographic retouching.

Of course there people who disagree, maintaining that the tubes are better amplification devices, period.

[Bigmoney]

Wow, Feanor, you really know what your talking about.

[Feanor]

Wow, Feanor, you really know what your talking about.

It's generous of you to say so, Bigmoney. But the truth is these are just things I hear around here and similar places. They happen to be consistent with my own observations, so I repeat them hopefully for the benefit of others.

[Bigmoney]

Thanks for all your help to feanor and others. Okay, sorry if I am starting from scratch but let me further describe my situation. I have a marantz dv 7600 universal player as my source, the rotel separates, blue jeans IC'S and the 602's. As you know by now I am looking for a warmer sound. My budget will be around 1000 bucks for whatever I decide to do, if that means a new integrated I can sell what I have for around 1000 to give me a 2000 budget or if I do new speaker sell the 602s and stands for 450 (including stands) and when I get a new source sell the marantz dv 7600 for 250 and my marantz dv 3002 for around 120. I will have a thousand to spend not including any sales of equipment. The reason I am in this position is that I bought my gear based on reviews and without listening as you have mentioned to be disasterous. Now I am in the position of almost starting over. Amost feel like I owe you all an apology but I really do appreciate the advice and I know I wouldnt get my system right without your guidance. Do you think my speakers are inevitably what I should fix or can I build around them. Thinking of going to the 685's as I hear they are better than the 602s and smaller which I like for my dorm.

[Ajani]

Thanks for all your help to feanor and others. Okay, sorry if I am starting from scratch but let me further describe my situation. I have a marantz dv 7600 universal player as my source, the rotel separates, blue jeans IC'S and the 602's. As you know by now I am looking for a warmer sound. My budget will be around 1000 bucks for whatever I decide to do, if that means a new integrated I can sell what I have for around 1000 to give me a 2000 budget or if I do new speaker sell the 602s and stands for 450 (including stands) and when I get a new source sell the marantz dv 7600 for 250 and my marantz dv 3002 for around 120. I will have a thousand to spend not including any sales of equipment. The reason I am in this position is that I bought my gear based on reviews and without listening as you have mentioned to be disasterous. Now I am in the position of almost starting over. Amost feel like I owe you all an apology but I really do appreciate the advice and I know I wouldnt get my system right without your guidance. Do you think my speakers are inevitably what I should fix or can I build around them. Thinking of going to the 685's as I hear they are better than the 602s and smaller which I like for my dorm.

No shame in that. Many of us started out that way. The first real setup I bought was based almost entirely on reviews with one short audition in the store. The purchase wasn't disastrous but I soon realized that I could have put together a far more satisfying setup for the same or even less money.

Two suggestions:

1) Go to your dealer (since he sells Marantz, Krell, Rotel and B&W) and try out this combo: Marantz PM7001, CD5001 and B&W 685. The Marantz amp should be warmer than your Rotels and the new 600 series are supposed to be warmer than the old one. So that combo might just be what you want and it's less than $1500.

2) If you can't find any other dealers than your local one in order to audition different brands (than the 4 mentioned earlier), then seriously consider buying used (on Audiogon etc.). That way, if you don't like the products, you can probably sell them for pretty much what you paid for them.

[Bigmoney]

I think the best thing to do is to sell what I have. That way I can spend the summer working earning more money for college and my system and also use that time to figure out what I really want by listening and using the knowledge I know have. I am figuring I cane sell my separates for close to 1000 because they are pretty much new and my speakers with stands for 450 dvd player for 250 or so, the other dvd for 120 or so and trade in my sub to my dealer for whatever the blue book is. Total in sales about 1900 plus 1000 I earned in the summer given me a budget around 2900, and if I can cut that budget to 2500 that would be awesome. Can I build a high fidelity 2 channel system for 2500-3000 max budget. This not including ac cords, interconects and speaker wire which I alread have. Obviously used is no isssue. Thinking Ill definetly get a 8001 from marantz used as a staple in my system, an integrated amp and a set of nice bookshelves for my dorm . Should be able to get something nice under 3 grand right, figuring 600 bucks spent on the used 8001 leaving 2 grand plus for the integrated and speakers. Also If I cant attain good synergy I am sure my pieces will perform cohesively together above their price point. Has anyone hear done what I have done, started over. I am actually kind of excited, part of the fun in this hobby is building your system as ong as it doesnt become an obsession. Wich sadly for me it hsa, but thats why I think I should sell what I have, take a break, and refocus on my needs.

[RGA]

First as the others have noted you MUST listen before you buy. Do not under any circumstance buy a tube amp to warm up the speakers. If the speakers are too bright to year ear - and you're not alone as plenty of people feel that way about many B&Ws and most speakers using metal tweeters - then it's a speaker issue. The Jolida is not going to come in and magically make the metal tweeter brightness go away.

Usually when a tube amp does not have enough power it will compress and lose control of the bass and reduce treble output. So the perception is that the treble is better but really it's the tube amp struggling and cutting it down. The bass becomes flabbier and that gives you a thicker warmer presentation - no doubt this can help a number of bright lean sounding speakers sound euphonic (pleasant - which after all is not a bad thing) but basically you're buying a glorified tone control.

Never buy speakers based on reviews. Most of the review industry is a back scratcher for the major makers.

Tubes can be a pain int he ass - they usually warrant them for 90 days - you need to not expect them to last longer than that. They could last 10 years but they may only last 90 days. They're like lightbulbs and you just never know.

Anyway you really want to listen before you buy - even if you have to spend money staying in a hotel and traveling to a different city - that money and education is better spent than relying on forumers. You won't know for sure if the Jolida and B&W can give you what you want until you try it.:15:

[blackraven]

Keep the rotel equipment, sell the speakers and cd/dvd player and buy the 8001 SACDP and speakers that sound good to you! Your rotel equipment is not the problem, its your speakers and source.

[Bigmoney]

I think I will still sell the rotels and pick up and integrated. I just want to save space for school and probably can profit off the deal. What do you all think about the rotel integrateds, I promise to listen to them myself before I buy though.

[Ajani]

I think I will still sell the rotels and pick up and integrated. I just want to save space for school and probably can profit off the deal. What do you all think about the rotel integrateds, I promise to listen to them myself before I buy though.

Well I think you know my opinion on the Rotel Integrated :) . You should be able to test out either of these combos ($1.4k and $1.5k respectively) at your dealer:

Rotel RA-1062 & RCD-1072
Marantz PM7001 and SA8001

Or mix and match if you prefer.

[Bigmoney]

I dont actual know your opinion on the integrated, how does it compare to the separates. And the two set ups listed are both either all rotel or all marantz, you don't reccomend mixing say the rotel integrated with the marantz 8001 for a warmer sound.

[Ajani]

I dont actual know your opinion on the integrated, how does it compare to the separates.

Hmmm.... if you check your original thread when you were planning to buy the Rotels, you'll see my advice on the Integrated.

To sum up what I said back then: I think the integrated will be just fine and not much of a step down from the seperates.


And the two set ups listed are both either all rotel or all marantz, you don't reccomend mixing say the rotel integrated with the marantz 8001 for a warmer sound.

I've never seen much benefit in mixing and matching, because I really like system synergy. But it really just comes down to what you think sounds best in your audition.

[Bigmoney]

My apology, I recalled what you had said after I posted. Today, I stopped by my dealer and auditioned the b and w cm1s which I really like because of their size and solid wood veneer. I heard them today and, wow! I thought they were in a total separate league from my 602's, but faster, quicker transients, and extremely tight sound. I could distinctly hear notes on eric claptons guitar from road to escondido with jj cale, where as wit hthe 602s they tended to blend together more. I was also astonished because they were playing through a rotel receiver and their lowest make dvd player. I told my dealer my budget, for the system I will purchase a few months ago. I told him 2500, 3000 max for the system. His recommendation wasto get the cm1's and get the rotel 1062 integrated with the rotel 1072 cd player. He also said I should listen to the 8001 for 200 bucks more and the marantz pm 7001 as mentioned before which is actually less than the rotel. He also said he would knock 200 bucks off the final price which would be 2400 before taxes, which is nearly 10 percent, not bad. But I told him I will definetly listen to all the combinations of equipment he has available. Has anyone heard the 685's or cm1 and if so what was your preference. My dealer says the cm 1 is head and shoulders above the 685, but I am not sure if thats due to commision. How do these speakers compare to the 602's.

[Ajani]

Sounds like good advice from your dealer. I've auditioned the CM1s several times and compared them directly to the 805s. IMO, they are excellent bookshelf speakers for the price and frankly they really made me question whether the 805S were worth the extra money (almost triple the price).... But make sure you do extended auditions with the CM1s and both the Rotels and Marantz to ensure that they don't turn out to be too bright for you.

Edit: I haven't heard the 685 though, so I can't comment on them.

[Bigmoney]

Has anyone compared th 685's to the the cm1's?

[jrhymeammo]

Rotel is obviously a step above Marantz and Denon lines offered here in US. Their reference lines are very good. Any ways, Rotel 1062 will be a nice integrated for you, but if you are still interested in tubes, you would want to consider used Primalune over Jolida. ASL and Dared products are just rebadget chinese products with advertising. Used Primaluna Prologue 1 or 2 are listed for under $1k. At around this price range, you need to purchase equipments with highest quality parts. I think PrimaLuna excels at your price range.

You need to make sure you have access to tube replacements. For that I would stay away from Vincent. Also, Vincent like others are just rebadged products. I would stay away.....

JRA

[RGA]

Prima Luna is all made in China just to make sure people are clear.

[Feanor]

Rotel is obviously a step above Marantz and Denon lines offered here in US. Their reference lines are very good. Any ways, Rotel 1062 will be a nice integrated for you, but if you are still interested in tubes, you would want to consider used Primalune over Jolida. ASL and Dared products are just rebadget chinese products with advertising. Used Primaluna Prologue 1 or 2 are listed for under $1k. At around this price range, you need to purchase equipments with highest quality parts. I think PrimaLuna excels at your price range.

You need to make sure you have access to tube replacements. For that I would stay away from Vincent. Also, Vincent like others are just rebadged products. I would stay away.....

JRA

Vincent says -- or at least implies -- that its products are designed in Germany. So believing that, their situation isn't necessarily diffferent to PrimaLuna's. ASL and Dared are indeed "rebadged" products, that is, designed as well as built in China.

There are numerous degrees of Chinese participation in production. As examples, (with degrees in between):

Designed by a non-Chinese company and built in a Chinese factory owned and fully controlled by the foreign company.
Designed abroad and built in China with on-site supervision and quality control by the foreign company.
Designed abroad and built in China, usually with some quality control.
Partly or entirely designed in China according to a foreign company's specifications, with or without any quality control.
Entirely design and built in China with the final product being "rebadged" for a foreign distributor
Entirely a Chinese product under a Chinese brand sold and, if you're luckly serviced, by foreign distributor in the foreign country.
Entirely Chinese sold via Internet and shipped from there. Any service you get is strictly a bonus.The recent TAS articles on the Chinese audio industry make it clear that it is very common practice in that country for contract producers and subcontractors to substitute cheap or counterfeit parts for specified parts.

[RGA]

Being made in China is not a death sentence for the product but IMO it is not helping the the world economy or other social issues.

The reality is that even companies who do not make stuff in China, like Audio Note, that does not mean that parts from suppliers are not made in China.

ASL is made by Joseph Lau - A Chinese fellow - owns and operates his company and hires local workers - his NA distributor is Divergent, A Canadian company. B&W is a rich company now building or has built a manufacturing plant in China - (one of the rags out now has an article on this). They can now line up a bunch of dirt cheap labour to sit in chairs all day(much longer days and for far less money) to put together boards etc and keep their costs down (though the speaker prices will remain high or higher to increase profit margins - after all those full colour glossy catalogs they give to customers for free and all that advertising costs money).

Ultimately it comes down to quality control if all you care about is the actual product and none of the social issues around supporting Chinese operations. If the QC is good then it doesn't matter if it's made in China or England or Canada. Indeed the workmanship may actually be better in China because a bad job done by an employee there could mean being instantly sacked or taken in the back and beaten or raped. Certainly more of an incentive than the Brit or Canadian who has seniority in a Union can be a total lazy slack ass that you have to run through endless paperwork to try and sack. And since putting the boards together is not rocket science you don't really need a master craftsman for most of it.

[basite]

Vincent says -- or at least implies -- that its products are designed in Germany. So believing that, their situation isn't necessarily diffferent to PrimaLuna's. ASL and Dared are indeed "rebadged" products, that is, designed as well as built in China.


vincent is a special one

it's a chinese brand, which designs its products in germany (by who is unknown, could be any german...), under chinese guidelines (which include the budget, and other guidelines), and is then built in china, in asia, vincent goes under a different name, and they have more products there...

so since the budget for vincent gear is held low, the designers tend to copy alot from brands like classe, mark levinson, .... Unfortunately, just copying, and using cheaper parts & technology doesn't make it the same product...


jolida & primaluna, are not chinese brands, (primaluna is dutch), and are designed here, and are built there under strong supervision. Chinese brands & manufacturers tend to change alot and often, small things like 'what would happen if we place that knob over there...', so production quality is lower. With strong supervision, those things don't really happen...

Look at Rotel, and Classe too i think, both built in china...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[bobsticks]

Ultimately it comes down to quality control if all you care about is the actual product and none of the social issues around supporting Chinese operations. If the QC is good then it doesn't matter if it's made in China or England or Canada. Indeed the workmanship may actually be better in China because a bad job done by an employee there could mean being instantly sacked or taken in the back and beaten or raped. Certainly more of an incentive than the Brit or Canadian who has seniority in a Union can be a total lazy slack ass that you have to run through endless paperwork to try and sack. And since putting the boards together is not rocket science you don't really need a master craftsman for most of it.

Thank you.


FWIW, Joilda makes some nice preamps.

[Bigmoney]

Hey just thought I would let everyone know I decided on the audio refinement complete integrated. Seems like a good compromise for warm sound in an SS design and I got it for 500 off the gon. I am just a little worried it wont be able to drive my speakers 88db, but Ill keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for allt he help. Ill be sure to keep you posted on my reaction to this amp

[Ajani]

Hey just thought I would let everyone know I decided on the audio refinement complete integrated. Seems like a good compromise for warm sound in an SS design and I got it for 500 off the gon. I am just a little worried it wont be able to drive my speakers 88db, but Ill keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for allt he help. Ill be sure to keep you posted on my reaction to this amp

Congratulations on the new purchase! I've heard the Audio Refinement Complete driving a pair of Monitor Audio Gold Series 20 speakers and was very impressed. Hopefully the AR will also sound good with the B&W's.

[Bigmoney]

Thanks so much. I have been thinking about getting the matching cd player to pair with the integrated, but I haven't heard as much about the cdp as I have the amp. The amp gets rave reviews from everyone but the cdp seems to have less buzz, I figured though it should match syngergistically considering they are made to be paired together. Any word on the audio refinement complete cd player????

[RGA]

I'm a big synergy buff but in this case I would look elsewhere. You have a great amp for a great price - the Complete is $1500 new and was one of the better amps under $2k around.

Their CD players are a little bland - not bad but forgettable. On the other hand if you can get it for the same kind of price it's still likely better than any $500 CD player.

Most CD players under $1k sound pretty much alike so try and get one that has a good solid transport mechanism which will allow you to upgrade to an external DAC while still having a good transport. That is what I did - my CD player was about $800 but it has a well above average transport mechanism. It's 12 years old so getting a well built machine is a good idea because it could take you some years to buy a good external DAC.

Unfortunately the replacement Cambridge units aren't as good (though they have a $1500 new one which might be). Something like the Star Trek designed Rega Saturn might be worth a look - they apparently have well above average transports and if you like Star Trek you'll have the look too.:smile5: http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Saturn.htm

[Bigmoney]

RGA, I am using a marantz dv 7600 currently as a universal player, wouldn't logic dictate that I keep my current player and get a nice dac for rebook cds for three reasons.

1. I have always heard most players under a grand have very similar quality transports, therefore my marantz at 900 bucks new should have an adequate transport. I question whether selling my player will yield much benefit, just to be used as a transport. I have heard many say that even cheap dvd players serve as adequate transports, and mine is not a walmart special.

2. If I keep the marantz I retain the SACD and DVA playback along with a quality dvd player.

3. Finally, I presume the cost of another player to be used as a transport would be greater than what I can sell my marantz for on the gon. The extra money to buy another player to be used as a transport, may very well be better spent towards the DAC.

Your suggestion does warrant consideration because most likely in buying a better player I could achieve substantially better performance over my marantz dvd in the meantime before buying a dac down the road. However, let me just mention I recall hearing once on another forum that money is better spent on a quality player, rather than attaching a nice dac to a mediocre player. My one caveat about an external dac, is that it only makes sense that you pay more for an outboard dac than a dac within a component. My theory is that a company can mark an external dac up more since it is its own entity with its own box and outlets and power supply. Furthermore, it would make sense to me that a quality player with a quality DAC, transport, and other variables effecting performance built into one box would yield for a much higher performance/cost ratio.

[blackraven]

I disagree that most sub 1k CDP's sound alike. I've had the Marantz 8001, the Cambridge Audio 740c and the Music Hall CD25.2 and have heard the Rega Apollo. They all have a noticably different sound, with the Marantz being the most different and warmest sounding.

The Rega Apollo was more foward and the Music Hall very laid back and very transparent.

The 740c was the most detailed

[RGA]

Bigmoney

External DACs are often superior though for the very reasons you list - separate power supply.

I agree with you on not getting rid of your current player - you'd take too big a loss and it's probably not worth it. BlackRaven is correct that the cd players he mention sound different but not enough to warrant the money - and different doesn't mean better.

I would suggest the Audio Note DAC kit 2.1 as a very serious upgrade to just about any CD player on the market. They charge $200 to build it for you. They're some of the best out there and the best I have so far heard - I'll be buying one myself. If you can use a soldering iron you can build it yourself. The 1.1 is considered a bit of a classic now and they are $799 the 2.1 starts at $1299.00 and goes to $1999.00. The latter is the one I will likely get - a year off though. You have to check with them first because these DACs do not work with all SS amps and transports but if they do it would make more of an upgrade than any $2k cd player. http://www.audionotekits.com/dac2_1.html

The finished production version is considerably more expensive http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0505/audionotedac21sig.htm

Downside is that it's big - almost the size of those 400 disc changers

Good luck to you.