Blu-ray player sales down since January.

[Smokey]

The NPD Group released some of its retail sales tracking data on Wednesday that showed sales of Blu-ray standalone players (not a PlayStation 3, combo player, or PC with Blu-ray drive) had mostly decreased since the beginning of the year.

Despite Toshiba's HD-DVD throwing the towel in February, standalone Blu-ray player unit sales in the U.S. decreased 40 percent from January to February and saw a very slight increase (2 percent) between February and March, according to NPD.

Analysts at NPD gave two main reasons why the sale of Blu-ray players are down:

1. DVD is "good enough" for most consumers. And that the picture offered by a Blu-ray Disc and accompanying player doesn't appear so overwhelmingly better than a standard DVD and many consumers can't justify the dramatically increased cost.

2. Cost. Regular DVD players did not became a common commodity untill they hit $100 mark, and that might be the magic price for Blu-ray player sales to take off. But that might be couple of years away as Sony recently announced that $200 players aren't likely until next year at the earliest.

http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_080430.html

[pixelthis]

Not to mention that people are broke, as a general rule.
I READ A STORY in todays paper about how people are cleaning out their attics
and even their houses, looking for stuff to sell for gas money.
not a climate favorable to a new toy.
I myself dont see any big hurry to get a blu, sure the pic is slightly better than broadcast,
but the price IS high.
And its not DVD that is the big competitor, I rarely watch DVD anymore.
But I watched 3:10 to yuma in DD and HD the other night, 5.99 and I didnt have to take it back, or spring for a 400$ player.
And the picture was really beautiful, the sound also.
And its not the price of the player alone, only reason I'd get one would be to collect movies,
so its not just the player but the cost of discs.
I am due a few "windfalls" but some will go for bills, some for a much needed vacation.
Any left over, I MIGHT look into a player,
Emphazise the word MIGHT. :1:

[GMichael]

3. People have found out that the PS3 is the best BR player available for the money.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Got my stimulus package money today. :ihih:

[bfalls]

How much willl it cost the next time you watch 3:10 to Yuma, or the next after that? I do agree discs are too costly right now, but I think there's a big difference in PQ over DVD. It may not be as important to many comsumers, but I enjoy it. I'm also enjoying the upconversion of SD DVDs. I don't plan to replace any of my SD DVDs with BDs. What I'm waiting for now are the prior HD-DVD titles to come out on BD. Has anyone heard if The Bourne Ultimatum will come out on BD?

I'm still finding the PS3 is the best quality BD player and its frequent upgrades a plus. I think it's great that upgrades to the gaming side allows more frequent upgrades to the BD side. I doubt standalone players will update as often. The only downside I see is the fan noise. Has anyone tried the auxillary cooler? Is it's fan quieter and reduce the need for the internal fan to run. I'm sitting 10ft away from the PS3, but still here the fan during quiet passages.

[Groundbeef]

Well, certainly as the PS3 goes, I think it's helping drive the BR format forward.

As far as "sales" go, I think that it will be interesting to see how the lack of competition affects sales.

Contrary to the BR supporters, I am not conviced the format war was all that bad for consumers. True, it was sometimes confusing for people to sift through the hype, but it was beneficial for downward price pressures.

Additionally, the format war helped keep the technology on the front burner. Now that there is only one format, it is largely ignored by the popular media. No war, NO STORY.
Therefore, I feel that consumers now have a "wait it out" mentality. Why buy into the technology now?, After all, it is the only game in town. The sense of urgency is gone, as well as the possiblity of a quick drop in price.

I do agree that BR does look great on a HDTV, but for many people in this rather uncertain time (financially) I don't know if BR offers enough benefit vs DVD. And the disc prices are too high.

[Feanor]

The NPD Group released some of its retail sales tracking data on Wednesday that showed sales of Blu-ray standalone players (not a PlayStation 3, combo player, or PC with Blu-ray drive) had mostly decreased since the beginning of the year.

Despite Toshiba's HD-DVD throwing the towel in February, standalone Blu-ray player unit sales in the U.S. decreased 40 percent from January to February and saw a very slight increase (2 percent) between February and March, according to NPD.

Analysts at NPD gave two main reasons why the sale of Blu-ray players are down:

1. DVD is "good enough" for most consumers. And that the picture offered by a Blu-ray Disc and accompanying player doesn't appear so overwhelmingly better than a standard DVD and many consumers can't justify the dramatically increased cost.

2. Cost. Regular DVD players did not became a common commodity untill they hit $100 mark, and that might be the magic price for Blu-ray player sales to take off. But that might be couple of years away as Sony recently announced that $200 players aren't likely until next year at the earliest.

http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_080430.html

And I think the reasons stated above are valid.

A couple of months ago I suggested that BluRay sales would not take off until players were available for <$200 and the DVD vs. BluRay software price differential shrunk to <30%. I'll stick with that.

BluRay vendors, hardware and software, are still at the "market skimming" stage whereby big bucks are extracted from "early adopters", (or as some would have it, the "suckers").

[Mr Peabody]

40% is significant, that should give some one some worry. As I posted in a thread I started current BR players suck at standard DVD playback. I think this is a disservice to consumers and the prices haven't gone down. There may be some upgrades in decoding but that shouldn't add much to the expense of a player. It looks to me like the current players are offering less performance for the same money. I doubt if this is the reason for the slump, it didn't seem to make a difference with the members here and I doubt if the average Joe would know this information unless he researched before buying. I agree that most of it is probably the economy. When money is tight your existing DVD looks pretty good. Although home theater has made a dramatic impact on home viewing, I'd be willing to bet the majority of people just have a TV with a cable plugged into the back. BR isn't going to mean much to them.

Speaking of significant, BR's sound quality in it's intended format, uncompressed, is tremendously better than DVD, and DVD is better than broadcast. I also agree that when compared BR's PQ is better than DVD. But will the general public care about this. BR may still yet be a nitch. And, some are still claiming downloads are the future, including my local high end dealer. I still can't see this in the near future if at all but let's not start this again. Pix, I think you are the only PPV fan boy here. Your town might be the exception but most people's cable service sucks and satelite isn't much better. Their problem is they are trying to offer quantity instead of quality. PPV is also very limited. I've had a free movie coupon for a couple months now waiting for something worth using it for.

Also I don't know how much your average consumer is aware of but my feeling is the consumer electronics industry is as corrupt and moarlly bankrupt as any crime organization I can think of. I have never seen anything as messy as this HDMI crap and the one's behind it are the very one's selling and designing the electronics. Most here are the early adopters who this effects but they don't seem to care which just makes the electronics companies that much bolder. Things are starting to fall more in place but it has left many with receivers and other equipment that won't be compatible. An installer I was talking with says there are still some compatibility issues between even components of different brands both using 1.3. He suspects it has something to do with the large amount of talking back and forth the components must to to operate via HDMI.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think everyone is missing one important point here, which makes this no news at all. Every year between January and June CE sales take a dive. What this report does not do is give some perspective to the overall industry. During the same period NDP reported on bluray players, DVD players were also down about 30%, Televisions about 15% DVD sales down about 45% and bluray disc sales up about 10%. The entire CE industry goes into the doldrums in the first and second quarters, and things usually pick up during the third and boom during the fourth quarter. It has been that way since the early nineties and nothing has really changed.

Clearly with many consumers the HD DVD "effect" has changed everyones perception of just how much Hi Def should cost. New technology being introduced to sustain a healthy market is not cheap at its inception, and does not artificially stay cheap because of subsidation. Bluray players cost more to make, they are not subsidized, so one cannot expect their prices to be cheap like HD DVD players were(they were heavily subsidized in a unhealthy market) so early in the game.

Mr Peabody, the upgrades in decoding DO add to the expense of the player. In order to make some 1.1 players complient and upgradeable to 2.0, more memory has to be installed, and the chipsets that allow flash upgrades cost more money still. Their prices have not drop just yet. You have liscensing fee that are associated with audio codec additions. Bluray is not a continuation of DVD. Everything associated with the player is brand new, from the laser assembly, to the output devices.

You are not getting less product for the price as you state, you are actually getting more performance for the same price. Chipsets have become more powerful so they handle BD-j much better. It was found that the earliest players(namely the Samsung BP1000) does not have the horsepower to run BD-j, process DTHD or even pass it as a stream, and process or pass Dts MA lossless as either a enternal decoding, or pass it as a bitstream. Now players can either pass both as a bitstream, or internally decode it. All players sold now are AT LEAST 1.1 compliant, and 2.0 is still an optional choice.

To clearly understand what happens when your product is commoditized too quickly all one would have to do is look at HD DVD players, and Plasma televisions. Toshiba had to abandon the HD DVD market because of huge losses, and television manufacturers are bailing out of plasma production because they are not making any money on the televisions.

GB,
The war was not bad for consumers except it created a VERY false sense of a pricing structure for new technology. What was good for the consumer on the HD DVD side, pretty much killed Toshiba's profits for two years. On their HD DVD business their loses were within a hair's breathe of $1billion. Most of this loss was on subsidizing player prices for the entire time HD DVD was on the market. That was good for the consumer, but killed its business, and in the end alot of HD DVD owners were stuck with a player no longer supported with movies, and a customer services nightmare as players that were broken or half function before leaving the manufacturering plant are now coming back for servicing. Toshiba is dragging their feet, and creating more ill will for themselves, and now the consumer is seeing what happens when products are artificially cheap, and do not reflect the true cost from manufacturing to customer services.

I would rather delay adoption a few months, even a year, so I could keep a healthy market that supports continued cost cutting R&D, supports a good customer services structure, and make sure that software plays in the player with fewer glitches(The glitch level of software and players has pretty much gone away post war).

Renting via downloads is going to grow, but very slowly according to all of the credible analyst that cover the film industry. Nobody believes that downloads are going to hurt or even slow down bluray, but products appeal to two different levels of consumer. Secondly, they are not making any money. Amazon and Microsoft have totally refused to release their quarterly numbers on both sales and rental of video on demand products. Most analyst think they are actually losing money. Apple is losing money on download sell through, but doing pretty well with television and movie downloads. Right now DVD is experiencing major pain in sales, as sales continue to drop 1-2% yearly.

Another thing to consider is that once the format war became over, demands for bluray players went through the roof. Walmart has experienced this rather painfully as they have not been able to keep bluray players on the shelves, and delays of getting new players is about 30-45 days for some store locations. Pioneer sold out their higher end $1000 player, and getting more on the shelves has been pretty slow for some retailers. Alot of analyst are discounting NDP's Ross Rubin's analysis. According to three other analysts, bluray player sales are actually doing quite well, but is not meeting the demand. This is further bolstered by very healthy software sales. So things are not always as they look. When you look at first quarter sales this year compared to last, there has been a five fold increase this year over last years sales. Best Buy is having a problem keeping both the Samsung BP 1400 and the Sony S300 bluray players on the shelves, and there are shortages of these players nation wide.

Several members of bluray.com that work at both Best Buy and Walmart report that the PS3 is selling so well that any shipments that come in, are gone within days, and in some cases hours.

Bfalls, I have never heard my PS3 fan, not even when running folding@home which is very power intensive. Do you have your sitting flat, or standing up?

[Groundbeef]

I think everyone is missing one important point here, which makes this no news at all. Every year between January and June CE sales take a dive. What this report does not do is give some perspective to the overall industry. During the same period NDP reported on bluray players, DVD players were also down about 30%, Televisions about 15% DVD sales down about 45% and bluray disc sales up about 10%. The entire CE industry goes into the doldrums in the first and second quarters, and things usually pick up during the third and boom during the fourth quarter. It has been that way since the early nineties and nothing has really changed.

Clearly with many consumers the HD DVD "effect" has changed everyones perception of just how much Hi Def should cost. New technology being introduced to sustain a healthy market is not cheap at its inception, and does not artificially stay cheap because of subsidation. Bluray players cost more to make, they are not subsidized, so one cannot expect their prices to be cheap like HD DVD players were(they were heavily subsidized in a unhealthy market) so early in the game.

Mr Peabody, the upgrades in decoding DO add to the expense of the player. In order to make some 1.1 players complient and upgradeable to 2.0, more memory has to be installed, and the chipsets that allow flash upgrades cost more money still. Their prices have not drop just yet. You have liscensing fee that are associated with audio codec additions. Bluray is not a continuation of DVD. Everything associated with the player is brand new, from the laser assembly, to the output devices.

You are not getting less product for the price as you state, you are actually getting more performance for the same price. Chipsets have become more powerful so they handle BD-j much better. It was found that the earliest players(namely the Samsung BP1000) does not have the horsepower to run BD-j, process DTHD or even pass it as a stream, and process or pass Dts MA lossless as either a enternal decoding, or pass it as a bitstream. Now players can either pass both as a bitstream, or internally decode it. All players sold now are AT LEAST 1.1 compliant, and 2.0 is still an optional choice.

To clearly understand what happens when your product is commoditized too quickly all one would have to do is look at HD DVD players, and Plasma televisions. Toshiba had to abandon the HD DVD market because of huge losses, and television manufacturers are bailing out of plasma production because they are not making any money on the televisions.
GB,
The war was not bad for consumers except it created a VERY false sense of a pricing structure for new technology. What was good for the consumer on the HD DVD side, pretty much killed Toshiba's profits for two years. On their HD DVD business their loses were within a hair's breathe of $1billion. Most of this loss was on subsidizing player prices for the entire time HD DVD was on the market. That was good for the consumer, but killed its business, and in the end alot of HD DVD owners were stuck with a player no longer supported with movies, and a customer services nightmare as players that were broken or half function before leaving the manufacturering plant are now coming back for servicing. Toshiba is dragging their feet, and creating more ill will for themselves, and now the consumer is seeing what happens when products are artificially cheap, and do not reflect the true cost from manufacturing to customer services.

I would rather delay adoption a few months, even a year, so I could keep a healthy market that supports continued cost cutting R&D, supports a good customer services structure, and make sure that software plays in the player with fewer glitches(The glitch level of software and players has pretty much gone away post war).

Renting via downloads is going to grow, but very slowly according to all of the credible analyst that cover the film industry. Nobody believes that downloads are going to hurt or even slow down bluray, but products appeal to two different levels of consumer. Secondly, they are not making any money. Amazon and Microsoft have totally refused to release their quarterly numbers on both sales and rental of video on demand products. Most analyst think they are actually losing money. Apple is losing money on download sell through, but doing pretty well with television and movie downloads. Right now DVD is experiencing major pain in sales, as sales continue to drop 1-2% yearly.

Bfalls, I have never heard my PS3 fan, not even when running folding@home which is very power intensive. Do you have your sitting flat, or standing up?

I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

BTW I highligted a portion of your response. Nice to see that you and Pix are again seeing eye to eye. PLASMA IS DEAD!!!!

[kexodusc]

I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

BTW I highligted a portion of your response. Nice to see that you and Pix are again seeing eye to eye. PLASMA IS DEAD!!!!
You hit below the belt, dawg. :1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

Come to think of it, so am I:Yawn:


BTW I highligted a portion of your response. Nice to see that you and Pix are again seeing eye to eye. PLASMA IS DEAD!!!!

I just have to do this because it is so ghetto, and so pixie at the same time:1: There!

Plasma is hardly dead, but manufacturering is defintately shifting around to the manufacturers with much lower labor costs. There is going to be alot of generic products made with a company's badge slapped on it, that is for sure. $hit, I just wanna do this one more time:1:

[Smokey]

Not to mention that people are broke, as a general rule.


That is probably another good reason. Have you been to grocery store lately.


I don't plan to replace any of my SD DVDs with BDs.

This probably be the big reason why sale of blu ray discs will be slower as compare to DVD sales a decade ago. Decade ago, most people dumped their entire VHS collection (including me) and replace them with DVD.

The question now become, would most people dump their DVD collection in favor of HD DVDs?


A couple of months ago I suggested that BluRay sales would not take off until players were available for <$200 and the DVD vs. BluRay software price differential shrunk to <30%. I'll stick with that.

So far, it is holding true :)


Another thing to consider is that once the format war became over, demands for bluray players went through the roof. Walmart has experienced this rather painfully as they have not been able to keep bluray players on the shelves, and delays of getting new players is about 30-45 days for some store locations. Pioneer sold out their higher end $1000 player, and getting more on the shelves has been pretty slow for some retailers.

So you are saying the sales are down due to inventory? That don't sound like a good business practice.



I would rather delay adoption a few months, even a year, so I could keep a healthy market that supports continued cost cutting R&D, supports a good customer services structure, and make sure that software plays in the player with fewer glitches(The glitch level of software and players has pretty much gone away post war).

Really, time might not be on blu -ray side. As other option and venues become more available to watch a movie, there will be more erosion in customer willingness to embrace blu ray.

For example since switched to comcast few months ago, their On Demand movie selections (which is for free) have pretty much put a dent in my desire to buy new dvds. May be that is why SD DVD sales are down 45% :D

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=Groundbeef]I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

QUOTE]

Why is it that so many members here can't quite seem to spel correcktly? that's one aspect of many members' contributions that defiantly annoys me.

[Mr Peabody]

Emaidel, you misspelled response.

I am not willing to dump my DVD's. I'd like to just pick up with BR where DVD left off. That's why I'm so annoyed at the industry not supporting good DVD playback in the BR players.

I haven't actually been looking to buy a BR player but when I've been to websites checking specs and such I don't notice too many "out of stock" messages. So I can't buy the excuse there's no BR players on the shelf.

As far as getting better performance for the same money, when I said the opposite I was comparing 2nd gen to current players. PS3 is probably one of the most up to date BR players and people who bought one in the past still receive the updates, that's a good example of better performance at the same price. They must have had plenty of margin built into the price originally if you claim that updated software costs that much. An example of what, I'm, talking about is the Panasonic dmp-10 had a separate standard video chip and did good DVD playback. The dmp-30 same price, DVD playback sucks because of the single chip for both SD & HD and it won't even decode Tru-HD or DTS-MA. It will pass it via bitstream but not decode which limits what it can be used with if you want that best audio. That's NOT better for the same money. Sony ES and Elite use the same video chip as well as all the BR players for less. These players cost big money and for that I'd expect something more than what a $399.00 player can do. I know it's your job to defend BR and the industry but I don't see better performance for the same money. I see them trying to keep price points up while stripping the player of any value except to play the BR discs which they are banking on us to buy to replace our existing DVD collections.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This probably be the big reason why sale of blu ray discs will be slower as compare to DVD sales a decade ago. Decade ago, most people dumped their entire VHS collection (including me) and replace them with DVD.

This is a pretty stagnant way of looking at looking forward. Going forward every new movie released on bluray will be day and date with DVD. In other words going forward mostly new movies will be released. So if the early adopter is purchasing new movies, and replacing just a portion of his previously released DVD's it will propel long term sales quite nicely. Right now in bluray's life it is outselling DVD at this same point in its life. And back in the last days of VHS everyone didn't quickly replace their VHS with DVD. It was a long process just like it will be for bluray to replace DVD.


The question now become, would most people dump their DVD collection in favor of HD DVDs?

I think you mean Bluray's. The early adopter appears to be doing so at this point. According to a survey done by Disney those that got into bluray early are replacing more of their older DVD titles than purchasing newer titles.




So you are saying the sales are down due to inventory? That don't sound like a good business practice.

Sales are up from last year at this period. Sales have always been down in the first and second quarter of every year since the early nineties, because gone is the holiday sales push, up goes consumer debt, and folks usually use this time to pay off credit card bills from christmas. Nobody expected the format war to end this soon, NOBODY. And quite frankly when it was over, nobody anticipated that sales would jump so fast. Manufacturers were being cautious because everyone knew a enconomy slowdown was on its way, so manufacturering was managed in a very safe way. The unexpected benefit of this happening is demand is keeping player prices high, and that is good for CE R&D health. If you want to continue ways to cut cost on both player parts and assembly, you have to be constantly creating effieciencies to save more money, and raise profits. Can't do that without money.


Really, time might not be on blu -ray side. As other option and venues become more available to watch a movie, there will be more erosion in customer willingness to embrace blu ray.

Its a fallacy to believe that Bluray has to replace DVD tomorrow. The BDA is trying to build an sustainable and controlled infrastructure to support the next gen hi defintiion movie, audio and gaming platform for the next ten years, and beyond if nothing else replaces it after ten years or so. We are currently on 10 year cycles with video formats, with VHS lasting the longest. The bluray disc is still the best way to watch HD movies, soon to be the best way to listen to high resolution music it is going to appeal to audiophiles and videophiles alike, and soon everyone. There is no rush, downloads have more than 10 years before it is ready for primetime, there is plenty of time for bluray adoption


For example since switched to comcast few months ago, their On Demand movie selections (which is for free) have pretty much put a dent in my desire to buy new dvds. May be that is why SD DVD sales are down 45% :D

Analyst do not believe downloads and VOD have effected DVD sales. There are fewer movies being released each year, so fewer to choose from. Most studio have very little catalog titles left for DVD release. Most titles in most studios libraries are already out there. Folks that were buying SD DVD before are now buying blurays, as bluray sales have pretty much shored up DVD sales which lead to a 2% rise in studio net sales last year. I used to buy at least 5 DVD a week before, and I have not purchased a single one in two years. In that same two years I have purchased 175 HD DVD's, and 374 Blurays. Video collectors are just changing formats. and these are the things that are hitting DVD sales.

[pixelthis]

I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

BTW I highligted a portion of your response. Nice to see that you and Pix are again seeing eye to eye. PLASMA IS DEAD!!!!


just goes to show that a broken clock is right twice a day.
But Sir talky is probably on military time, so make that ONCE a day.
Anyway glad to see you finally got one right, talky :1:

[pixelthis]

How much willl it cost the next time you watch 3:10 to Yuma, or the next after that? I do agree discs are too costly right now, but I think there's a big difference in PQ over DVD. It may not be as important to many comsumers, but I enjoy it. I'm also enjoying the upconversion of SD DVDs. I don't plan to replace any of my SD DVDs with BDs. What I'm waiting for now are the prior HD-DVD titles to come out on BD. Has anyone heard if The Bourne Ultimatum will come out on BD?

I'm still finding the PS3 is the best quality BD player and its frequent upgrades a plus. I think it's great that upgrades to the gaming side allows more frequent upgrades to the BD side. I doubt standalone players will update as often. The only downside I see is the fan noise. Has anyone tried the auxillary cooler? Is it's fan quieter and reduce the need for the internal fan to run. I'm sitting 10ft away from the PS3, but still here the fan during quiet passages.

Well, I wont watch it for awhile.
Considering gas prices and such the price is competitive with renting one at the store,
and since I didnt have to buy a blu player I save 400 bucks right there.
And it was HD with DD sound, both of which were quite spectacular.
I know you rent movies so whats your point? How much will it cost the next time you
rent one? :1:

[pixelthis]

[Groundbeef]I for one am tired of your well reasoned, and well versed responces.

The fact that you think his marketing doublespeak is "well reasoned" speaks vollumes about your reasoning abilities (press harder, dont think your lips are planted
as hard as possible on his butt)


BTW I highligted a portion of your response. Nice to see that you and Pix are again seeing eye to eye. PLASMA IS DEAD!!!!

Just hate to admit I'm right, eh? :1:

[pixelthis]

Sales are up from last year at this period. Sales have always been down in the first and second quarter of every year since the early nineties, because gone is the holiday sales push, up goes consumer debt, and folks usually use this time to pay off credit card bills from christmas. Nobody expected the format war to end this soon, NOBODY. And quite frankly when it was over, nobody anticipated that sales would jump so fast.

I expected it, and so did everybody else with a clue.
THE FACT THAT YOU HAD NO IDEA DIDNT MEAN NO ONE ELSE DID


Manufacturers were being cautious because everyone knew a enconomy slowdown was on its way, so manufacturering was managed in a very safe way. The unexpected benefit of this happening is demand is keeping player prices high, and that is good for CE R&D health. If you want to continue ways to cut cost on both player parts and assembly, you have to be constantly creating effieciencies to save more money, and raise profits. Can't do that without money.


yep, GOTTA KEEP THOSE PLAYER PRICES HIGH, give the broken masses another excuse not to buy one in a reccession (like they would anyway)


Its a fallacy to believe that Bluray has to replace DVD tomorrow. The BDA is trying to build an sustainable and controlled infrastructure to support the next gen hi defintiion movie, audio and gaming platform for the next ten years, and beyond if nothing else replaces it after ten years or so. We are currently on 10 year cycles with video formats, with VHS lasting the longest. The bluray disc is still the best way to watch HD movies, soon to be the best way to listen to high resolution music it is going to appeal to audiophiles and videophiles alike, and soon everyone. There is no rush, downloads have more than 10 years before it is ready for primetime, there is plenty of time for bluray adoption

Keep whistling in the dark, VOD has practically replaced renting discs at my house already, and day and date release (which you brag about with Blu) is already a reality with
VOD on some titles(the Mist being the latest example)
Keep being disingenuous , talking about downloads over the net (which themselves are increasing) when its VOD over cable and sat that the action is at


Analyst do not believe downloads and VOD have effected DVD sales. There are fewer movies being released each year, so fewer to choose from. Most studio have very little catalog titles left for DVD release. Most titles in most studios libraries are already out there. Folks that were buying SD DVD before are now buying blurays, as bluray sales have pretty much shored up DVD sales which lead to a 2% rise in studio net sales last year. I used to buy at least 5 DVD a week before, and I have not purchased a single one in two years. In that same two years I have purchased 175 HD DVD's, and 374 Blurays. Video collectors are just changing formats. and these are the things that are hitting DVD sales.
YOU'RE changing formats, doesnt mean everybody else is, more center of the universe reasoning from talky.
BLU will probably become a collectors format, what I have been saying, but VOD and getting a movie over the wire will be the renters format.
You had better hope that BLU catches on enough to surrive when VOD takes off,
in a few years instead of ten, because theres a lot more renters than buyers :1:

[pixelthis]

Emaidel, you misspelled response.

I am not willing to dump my DVD's. I'd like to just pick up with BR where DVD left off. That's why I'm so annoyed at the industry not supporting good DVD playback in the BR players.

I haven't actually been looking to buy a BR player but when I've been to websites checking specs and such I don't notice too many "out of stock" messages. So I can't buy the excuse there's no BR players on the shelf.

As far as getting better performance for the same money, when I said the opposite I was comparing 2nd gen to current players. PS3 is probably one of the most up to date BR players and people who bought one in the past still receive the updates, that's a good example of better performance at the same price. They must have had plenty of margin built into the price originally if you claim that updated software costs that much. An example of what, I'm, talking about is the Panasonic dmp-10 had a separate standard video chip and did good DVD playback. The dmp-30 same price, DVD playback sucks because of the single chip for both SD & HD and it won't even decode Tru-HD or DTS-MA. It will pass it via bitstream but not decode which limits what it can be used with if you want that best audio. That's NOT better for the same money. Sony ES and Elite use the same video chip as well as all the BR players for less. These players cost big money and for that I'd expect something more than what a $399.00 player can do. I know it's your job to defend BR and the industry but I don't see better performance for the same money. I see them trying to keep price points up while stripping the player of any value except to play the BR discs which they are banking on us to buy to replace our existing DVD collections.


LETS FACE IT MR P, those DVD'S are never going to look that good, because they are being compared to Blu and HD on sat or cable.
Sony has enough money to sell gold bricks at ten bucks a pop, had huge profits last year.
If they wanted to really get Blu established they would sell a cut down player for under a 100$, beleive it or not that is doable, wont make money, but doable.
But they wont because they have the worst marketing dept in the known universe.
Their engineering dept has all of these triumps and the suits keep screwing up.
Basically they have the collectors market sewed up, as well as early adopters.
But the great unwashed know that cheaper players are down the line, and since they cant afford one one, why not wait?
So they will, and quite awhile, 4.00$ gas isnt going anywhere, its here to stay,
mortages that are too high because the property is overvalued are gonna be around awhile too.
So Sony is going to listen to the sir talkys of the world, people who couldnt sell ice water in hell, so to speak.
YEAH, lets keep those players prices HIGH, people losing their houses, cleaning out their attics (if they have an attic left) trying to sell heirlooms for a tank of gas, they
are going to jump at the chance to pay 400 bucks for a toy, really,
when they are having to walk away from their houses because they cant make the payments.
Anybody who knows will tell you, the money in any format is the software.
THAT IS WHY SONY BOUGHT RECORD COMPANIES AND STUDIOS.
You need to get players out there, a player is a one time purchase, software is on the installment plan, people wont buy discs without a player to play it on.
THE AFTER CHRISTMAS "SLUMP" , BTW is over , as is sir talkys excuse.
This "slump" is real, but only lasts at most until the first tax refunds start coming out.
So as usual SONY will blow it, trying to sell a luxery item in a harsh retail market
when most retailers are begging for customers, and shuttering stores.
And dont tell me how much these players "cost", that is inconsequential in selling something, cost doesnt matter, people wont pay a million for a chevette,
they will pay 4 bucks for gas because they need it, do they need a Blu player?
HARDLY :1:

[emaidel]

Emaidel, you misspelled response.

.


No, I didn't, but Groundbeef did, and all I did was emphasize the word. How come you didn't pick up on "defiantly" as opposed to "definitely?"

[Groundbeef]

No, I didn't, but Groundbeef did, and all I did was emphasize the word. How come you didn't pick up on "defiantly" as opposed to "definitely?"

That's a no-brainer. Because you didn't spell "Defiantly" wrong silly. True, it might have been a poor word choice, but it wasn't spelled wrong.

What I really hate is pompus people who try to spell words wrong, but can't do it. Instead they think they did it, but actually used a word out of context.

That's what I hate.

Freakin' out of context word users...drives me nuts.

[GMichael]

LETS FACE IT MR P, those DVD'S are never going to look that good, because they are being compared to Blu and HD on sat or cable.
Sony has enough money to sell gold bricks at ten bucks a pop, had huge profits last year.
If they wanted to really get Blu established they would sell a cut down player for under a 100$, beleive it or not that is doable, wont make money, but doable.
But they wont because they have the worst marketing dept in the known universe.
Their engineering dept has all of these triumps and the suits keep screwing up.
Basically they have the collectors market sewed up, as well as early adopters.
But the great unwashed know that cheaper players are down the line, and since they cant afford one one, why not wait?
So they will, and quite awhile, 4.00$ gas isnt going anywhere, its here to stay,
mortages that are too high because the property is overvalued are gonna be around awhile too.
So Sony is going to listen to the sir talkys of the world, people who couldnt sell ice water in hell, so to speak.
YEAH, lets keep those players prices HIGH, people losing their houses, cleaning out their attics (if they have an attic left) trying to sell heirlooms for a tank of gas, they
are going to jump at the chance to pay 400 bucks for a toy, really,
when they are having to walk away from their houses because they cant make the payments.
Anybody who knows will tell you, the money in any format is the software.
THAT IS WHY SONY BOUGHT RECORD COMPANIES AND STUDIOS.
You need to get players out there, a player is a one time purchase, software is on the installment plan, people wont buy discs without a player to play it on.
THE AFTER CHRISTMAS "SLUMP" , BTW is over , as is sir talkys excuse.
This "slump" is real, but only lasts at most until the first tax refunds start coming out.
So as usual SONY will blow it, trying to sell a luxery item in a harsh retail market
when most retailers are begging for customers, and shuttering stores.
And dont tell me how much these players "cost", that is inconsequential in selling something, cost doesnt matter, people wont pay a million for a chevette,
they will pay 4 bucks for gas because they need it, do they need a Blu player?
HARDLY :1:

Reasonable assumptions. But most people put a little something aside for recreation. Will they have set aside enough for that trip to Vegas this year? Not likely. More likely that they'll spend that on home entertainment during these rough spots. The question is, how many people fall into the "rough times, but can get by" category vs how many fall into the "wholly crap, we're screwed and can't buy anything" category. There will be some in both.
As long as PS3's keep selling so much (that were so left out of these numbers) , I doubt Sony will lower any prices on BR players. As more and more people keep buying gamers as their BR players, a certain percentage of those people will actually play a game or two on them and get hooked. Sony will take that smile all the way to the bank. Not a bad business plan IMO. If it doesn't pan out (as so many good plans don't) they can then think about lowering BR players, or other such plan B's & C's.
It's good to keep options open. Once they lower prices, they'll nevver be able to raise them again.

[Rich-n-Texas]

No, I didn't, but Groundbeef did, and all I did was emphasize the word. How come you didn't pick up on "defiantly" as opposed to "definitely?"
Well, I'm not trying to be defiant or anythang, but I spell it as definately, which I think is also correct.

Reasonable assumptions. But most people put a little something aside for recreation. Will they have set aside enough for that trip to Vegas this year? Not likely. More likely that they'll spend that on home entertainment during these rough spots. The question is, how many people fall into the "rough times, but can get by" category vs how many fall into the "wholly crap, we're screwed and can't buy anything" category.
That's what I'm doing this year. Maybe if the economy picks up by summer 2009 I'll take a trip up home to Jersey. I really miss the shore and some of my friends up there. AND... I fall into the choice A category... "rough times, but can get by". I'm not WEALTHY by ANY stretch of the imagination. :mad5:

[GMichael]

I'm not WEALTHY by ANY stretch of the imagination. :mad5:

But I thought that you were Rich.:crazy:

[emaidel]

Well, I'm not trying to be defiant or anythang, but I spell it as definately, which I think is also correct.




No, it's not, but it sure goes along with "anythAng!" You're a funny fellow.

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's my Texas twang (sp?) :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

It's my Texas twang (sp?) :biggrin5:

You're from the north dude.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh shut up!!! Quit annoying me! :ihih:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Emaidel, you misspelled response.

I am not willing to dump my DVD's. I'd like to just pick up with BR where DVD left off. That's why I'm so annoyed at the industry not supporting good DVD playback in the BR players.

Unfortunately a bluray player cannot be everything to everybody. As it stands now the bluray format is shaping up to be a high defintion audio and video platform. In an environment where everyone is asking for more for less, something has to give. To create two different signal paths and chipset to handle SD DVD and HD video seperately just adds cost and complexity to the player. You can't on one hand scream about price, while on the other side of your mouth ask for more performance for a non related format. At some point you are going to have to pay for that extra performance.


I haven't actually been looking to buy a BR player but when I've been to websites checking specs and such I don't notice too many "out of stock" messages. So I can't buy the excuse there's no BR players on the shelf.

Whether you "buy"it or not, that is what the reality is. And it has been this way since January. Its a big world out there, and there are alot of place to buy players. What you haven't seen, and what is actually happening allows for a big disconnect.


As far as getting better performance for the same money, when I said the opposite I was comparing 2nd gen to current players. PS3 is probably one of the most up to date BR players and people who bought one in the past still receive the updates, that's a good example of better performance at the same price. They must have had plenty of margin built into the price originally if you claim that updated software costs that much.

You cannot throw the PS3 into the same pot as bluray standalones. The PS3 has the Cell chip which is at least twenty times more powerful than the chipsets going into the highest of high end players. The Cell chip in the PS3 IS a subsidized item, because if they pass the cost of this chip to the consumer, the multimedia player would be alot closer to $800. Since this is classified as a game machine, some of the cost is subsidized by Sony's gaming division. No standalone is subsidized. Now one could ask why they don't just put a Cell processor into every bluray player? The answer to that would be its too expensive to do so, and alot of the horsepower in the Cell processor would go to waste. Because the PS3 has the gaming component, the Cell is needed for the graphics and audio.



An example of what, I'm, talking about is the Panasonic dmp-10 had a separate standard video chip and did good DVD playback.

Yes, but it could not pass Dts MA lossless, nor could it decode it internally. More people are clamoring for this, than for better SD DVD playback. At least that is what I have seen on bluray.com, and the other sites I visit.


The dmp-30 same price, DVD playback sucks because of the single chip for both SD & HD and it won't even decode Tru-HD or DTS-MA. It will pass it via bitstream but not decode which limits what it can be used with if you want that best audio. That's NOT better for the same money. Sony ES and Elite use the same video chip as well as all the BR players for less.

Since quite a few people are trading up to HDMI 1.3a based receivers, they are salivating over the DMP-30 high bit streaming option. Quite a few people think that the decoding should be done in the receiver, so bitstreaming is alot more important to some than playback of SD DVD. Many are just playing their DVD's through a oppo or other low cost upconverting DVD player. Look what happen to HD DVD players when they started adding fancy chipset for DVD playback. They didn't sell. The XA-2 did 5% of the business the A-2 did, and perhaps maybe 10% of the A-20. While the prices of the players dropped, Toshiba could not afford to continue to subsidize the cost of the XA-2, so its price never dropped even when 3rd generation players came to market. So when the A-35 came out, it did not have the reon chip for SD DVD playback, but it did do high bit streaming of both Dts MA and DTHD.



These players cost big money and for that I'd expect something more than what a $399.00 player can do. I know it's your job to defend BR and the industry but I don't see better performance for the same money. I see them trying to keep price points up while stripping the player of any value except to play the BR discs which they are banking on us to buy to replace our existing DVD collections.

I want to clarify something, though I think it might be pretty pointless to do so. I am not here to defend anything or anyone. I am here just like you are, as a consumer and a enthusiast. Because of my job, and contacts I have as an insider for bluray.com, I have access to information that most folks do not. I tend to see things from both sides of the fence, instead of just one side(the consumer).

I would venture to say to you Mr.P that you cannot see better performance because its not in your area of interest. You want better SD DVD playback, and that is at the bottom of the pile for most manufacturers who are interested in selling BLURAY players. They are emphasizing better performance for BLURAY playback, not DVD playback. There is no way they can tout better DVD performance when Oppo is selling upcoverting players at way lower prices. They would never be able to compete at that level. As long as BLURAY player performance and features get better, then the majority of the BLURAY player buyers are going to be satisfied. Once again you cannot complain about the price of the player, and then demand more things that drive up the price. Seperate paths and video chips add to the cost of the player, at a time when everyone is screaming for lower prices. The Reon chip in the BP-1200 won kudo's for DVD playback, but Samung couldn't sell them because they cost more than the other lower cost players on the market at the time. All one has to do is look at the issues dogging this player to see it might have been smarter to emphasize what is important(bluray playback) than try and increase complexity by allowing more expensive chips and seperate signal paths. Its a balance. Anyone looking at the bluray aspect of things(instead of asking a player to do everything under the sun well) can plainly see that more options have been added to better the bluray experience, but prices have not been rising to support the added functions.

[kexodusc]

Intuitively, I would think most BluRay manufacturers would deliberately make DVD playback sub-par in their players as a deterrent to the continued support of the DVD format.

If I only had a BluRay player in my home, I'd be more likely to buy the new Cloverfield BluRay than the DVD if I knew the PQ was going to be that much worse.

So I'm not surprised DVD playback has been less than stellar. That said, from what I've seen in store, the DVD playback has been better than a few early model DVD players I owned, so it's not like it's unwatchable.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...I want to clarify something, though I think it might be pretty pointless to do so. I am not here to defend anything or anyone. I am here just like you are, as a consumer and a enthusiast. Because of my job, and contacts I have as an insider for bluray.com, I have access to information that most folks do not. I tend to see things from both sides of the fence, instead of just one side(the consumer).
YOU WORK FOR SONY!!! And you're a Bluray insider! Of course you have access to info we don't. Of course you're trying to defend them!!! Good grief T!

:dita:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I expected it, and so did everybody else with a clue.
THE FACT THAT YOU HAD NO IDEA DIDNT MEAN NO ONE ELSE DID

You are full of $hit. You didn't know anymore than anyone else did you lyin sack of dinosaur dookie. Who do you think you are God? Pix, cut the bull, you are not some magic mind reading wonder. YOu are just a lonely a$$ old man who thinks they know more than they do.





yep, GOTTA KEEP THOSE PLAYER PRICES HIGH, give the broken masses another excuse not to buy one in a reccession (like they would anyway)

Some more of you wisdom. Well backwoods ghetto fart, during the last recession both DVD player and DVD disc sales grew 10% year over year. When things get bad, people stop buying cars, refridgerators, stop taking trips, and stop going out to eat. What they do purchase is home entertainment items. Did you know that VHS recorders also sold VERYwell during the 1990-1992 recession? Also, bluray player sales are five times what they were last year at this time, they are only down when compared to December when the big sales push was in effect




Keep whistling in the dark, VOD has practically replaced renting discs at my house already, and day and date release (which you brag about with Blu) is already a reality with
VOD on some titles(the Mist being the latest example)
Keep being disingenuous , talking about downloads over the net (which themselves are increasing) when its VOD over cable and sat that the action is at

First, what you do in hickville is not what is done in the bay area, New York, seattle or phoenix. So for you to use your house as an example is nothing more than alot of smoke being blown up everyone a$$. Just because day and date(The Mist is not what I would consider a tier one title) releases are happening on some titles, does not mean joe the public is ordering it. If downloads were doing so well, then why isn't Microsoft or Amazon willing to release what they have rented? I tell you why, everyone knows that business is not doing well, and both are operating at a loss so far this year. VOD is apparently not where the action is because Comcast income from VOD is down from the first quarter of last year, which was down from the first quarter of the year before. I do not know how many times I have to tell you that your little meaningless pile of a life is not everyone's life, so using yourself to make a point is just plain pointless.



YOU'RE changing formats, doesnt mean everybody else is, more center of the universe reasoning from talky.

Umm, Disney's survey didn't cover me only. It covered about 5000 people who stated they owned 100-200 DVD's.


BLU will probably become a collectors format, what I have been saying, but VOD and getting a movie over the wire will be the renters format.
You had better hope that BLU catches on enough to surrive when VOD takes off,
in a few years instead of ten, because theres a lot more renters than buyers :1:

I hate to brings some new news to you idiot, but collectors are what made DVD the quickest selling video format EVER. You do not build a sell through business(which is what DVD is) on those who have 10-15 discs in their collection, you go after those folks who have 200+ and have the tendency to upgrade whenever a new addition of a disc hit the streets. These are the folks that made DVD a sucess, not renters, and not the casual buyer.

Survey after survey has shown that folks that do VOD and downloading are not folks looking for a quality presentations. They are looking for convience. VOD nor downloading appeals to quality minded individual, and if it is going to take off, you need these quality minded folks because they buy alot of product in large numbers. There is a huge resistance to both VOD and downloading within the hometheater community, and it is very easy to see it. Get it through your thick head, folks want to own discs, not low quality bit starved video files. Folks are not ready for servers(they cost too much anyway), and folks do not want to take chances with their movie investment sitting on a hard drive. Every educated analyst who knows the film and video busines(which would exclude you because you do not even know the difference between your a$$ and a hole in the ground) has said that it will take AT LEAST a decade for VOD and downloading to get a viable profit making business plan. That is if the telecoms and cable companies do not stand in the way of the Amazons, Live or Apples downloading. So far what we are seeing is the telecoms and cable companies protecting their infrastructure from the downloaders so they can push VOD. This fracturing of the downloading and VOD business is what will keep VOD and downloading essentially niche process for years to come.

[Groundbeef]

Oh shut up!!! Quit annoying me! :ihih:

Don't be so modest Rich. On another thread, Rich was bragging about paying $12/lb for Broccoli. Broccoli for God's sake. I wish I had his kinda money.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Wasn't bragging, and it wasn't broccoli! I was whining because with all the steers down here it's rediculous that I have to pay $12/lb. for steak. Ground beef is way overpriced (and overated) too IMO. :p

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

YOU WORK FOR SONY!!! And you're a Bluray insider! Of course you have access to info we don't. Of course you're trying to defend them!!! Good grief T!

:dita:

I'll admit this if you admit you are Rich, and live in Texas. Do it man!!!

[filecat13]

Lots of interesting points and lots of silliness, too, but the consumer side of this is only relevant as long as the business side of it makes sense. Both the BluRay and HD DVD folks thought that this would be a logical next step in developing a market adaptation that produced strengthening revenue streams in an aging and saturated market. Only time will tell if it has that kind of ability.

HD DVD found out it wasn't good for them. I don't think that was due exclusively to BluRay being a better implementation. The market was too frail to support the competition, and the weaker business succumbed.

In that sense, BluRay is not a "big deal." It is an incremental improvement in one area of technology that attaches (or should attach da^^it!) to all the other digital pieces we already have, yet is incompatible with our current players, cables, inputs, and screens.

Dedicated enthusiasts like we find here will make all the changes necessary if they believe the reward is worth the effort. The average consumer is not so motivated, so the PS3 gambit is a smarter way to go than a dedicated player. It's at least a 2-for-1 investment that pays immediate dividends in game playing. Too bad it's a bleeder.

Maybe it's unfair to write "one area of technology" as it really does delve into both sight and sound. In that regard, I'm more interested in the development of BluRay as an audio medium. As noted in this link, it could become a real "player" if you'll pardon the pun.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080506/D90GAE100.html

While I have no interest in getting a BluRay player to watch movies, I'd jump at the chance to get excellent multichannel and/or high resolution audio. It's a rare film that I view more than two times, but for some reason there are albums I wore out two or three times as LPs, that ultimately jammed as Dolby cassettes, that eventually failed due to rot as CDs, that even now exist as 256kbps files in iTunes that I'd buy in a minute and listen to ten, twenty, or a hundred time more before I die if I could get an even better-sounding version.

[emaidel]

I made the mistake of purchasing a Toshiba HD-DVD player last July, in the hopes that it would be the format to win out in the "HD vs. BluRay battle." Not such a wise choice, eh?

Aside from the annoyances of how the player operates (it's very slow to start up, switching from one chapter to another on an HD disc seems also to take forever, plus the unit frequently freezes up), I thought the clarity of an HD disc was impressive, but then so was the unit's upgrading of regular DVD's. Often, I found it hard to tell the difference between the two.

While the audio on an HD disc (and presumably a BluRay Disc as well) is superb, so too is the audio on many DVD's I've recently watched; Matthew Bourne's amazing reworking of Bizet's opera "Carmen," into the cleverly titled, "The Car Man," as well as the startlingly dynamic soundtrack of Tim Burton's film of "Sweeny Todd" each surprised me as to how good they sounded.

I find it surprising that some have stated that BluRay does a lousy job on regular DVD's, and if that's so, that's a good and deserved reason for sales of such players to be declining.

So, where does this all end? I suspect BluRay will fade away too, and upgrading of regular DVD's will be the norm. And, from what I've seen, at least on my player, and my stepson's Oppo unit, that ain't so bad.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I made the mistake of purchasing a Toshiba HD-DVD player last July, in the hopes that it would be the format to win out in the "HD vs. BluRay battle." Not such a wise choice, eh?

Well, at least you got into the game. Some folks are complaining and they don't even own a player!


Aside from the annoyances of how the player operates (it's very slow to start up, switching from one chapter to another on an HD disc seems also to take forever, plus the unit frequently freezes up), I thought the clarity of an HD disc was impressive, but then so was the unit's upgrading of regular DVD's. Often, I found it hard to tell the difference between the two.

I have never had this issue. DVD and bluray do not look anything alike to these eyes. Especially when looking at fine detail, objects in the background, and facial details. Everything looks smoothed over on DVD(thanks to pre-filtering) when compared to bluray. And just wait till you get to those DVD titles that are poorly mastered with lots of edge enhancement, noise, pixelation on fast motion, and muddy crushed blacks all upconverted to 1080p. What a visual delight!:rolleyes5:


While the audio on an HD disc (and presumably a BluRay Disc as well) is superb, so too is the audio on many DVD's I've recently watched; Matthew Bourne's amazing reworking of Bizet's opera "Carmen," into the cleverly titled, "The Car Man," as well as the startlingly dynamic soundtrack of Tim Burton's film of "Sweeny Todd" each surprised me as to how good they sounded.

I have never thought that DVD soundtracks were all that good. Standing alone with nothing to compare, maybe. However I have had the access to the printmasters these soundtracks are encoded from, and the difference between it, and the typical Dolby digital encoding is quite startling. I have done level matched sound comparisons of every bluray disc I have reviewed to its DVD counterpart. I do not use this word lightly but a "trashing" would not be far from correct. When you have something of higher quality standing next to a DVD, IMO DVD does not look so attractive any more.


I find it surprising that some have stated that BluRay does a lousy job on regular DVD's, and if that's so, that's a good and deserved reason for sales of such players to be declining.

Unfortunately nobody buys a bluray player for its upconversion of DVD's. That is not its selling point. High definition audio and video with much more advance interactive feature is its selling point. All one has to do is look at the sales of the XA-2(which had the reon chip) and the A2(which does not), and one can see that price, and price alone is what sold the A-2. Not the wonderful upconversion. That can also be transferred to the BP1000(a lousy bluray player) versus the BP-1200(again with the reon chip). The BP1000 as crappy as it was sold much better than the 1200.


So, where does this all end? I suspect BluRay will fade away too, and upgrading of regular DVD's will be the norm. And, from what I've seen, at least on my player, and my stepson's Oppo unit, that ain't so bad.

I predict that you are completely wrong on this, and there are alot of forces working against this. First, upconversion does not work with every DVD. It sometimes makes it worse than before upconversion. Secondly, the studios want the DVD to go away. They have few to no catalog titles left to release that has not already been released(sometimes twice), and the format is security compromised. Since the studio will be releasing fewer movies per year for the next couple of years, there is nothing left to drive DVD sales. We are already seeing the sales of new releases decline, as it was not unheard of to sell 15-20 million disc per big box office title, and now its shrunk to around 7-10 million. The format has matured, and its basically on its way downward as sales has slipped every year for the last three. Retailers are no longer making money on DVD's they are too heavily discounted, and the studios are not either for the same reason. Not even Walmart is making money on DVD sales. Too many movers and shakers of the video business want to see DVD gone. It was very much the same way when the DVD took over VHS. Everyone wanted to see VHS just disappear.

[hermanv]

Well, will Sony finally get their comeuppances?

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/05/03/blu-ray-sales-tank-reason

Let me save you some reading. Sony BluRay:
1. They don't work for squat.
2. The players are overpriced
3. Software is overpriced,
4. Anti piracy is far more important than consumer satisfaction.
5. Up converted DVD is so close that most movies are a don't care.

You might think I don't like Sony, you would be right.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh geez, there're gonna be some fireworks now! :eek:

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T, you've never heard me complain about the price of BR players. I don't think it unreasonable to ask a player to do both SD & HD well, both the Samsung BD-P1200 and Panasonic dmp-10 have shown it can be done and both sold for only $599.00 msrp. People weren't talking "one machine, one job" with SACD playing CD or even now universal players that plays DVD/SACD/CD/mp3 and whatever else. Actually, it's stupid to expect the consumer who is used to a "universal" machine to now be expected to buy one machine for each format. It's the same thing with first let's do decoding in the player and now they want to switch it back to the receiver, and all at the consumers expense. What the hell, they'll just throw it away and buy the new thing.

I do agree that BR's uncompressed audio is significantly better than DD or DTS on DVD. It's not even close. I was using a digital coax feed into a $4k processor and I didn't think I was missing much, when I hooked up the MC analog it was amazing.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well, will Sony finally get their comeuppances?

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/05/03/blu-ray-sales-tank-reason

Let me save you some reading. Sony BluRay:
1. They don't work for squat.
2. The players are overpriced
3. Software is overpriced,
4. Anti piracy is far more important than consumer satisfaction.
5. Up converted DVD is so close that most movies are a don't care.

You might think I don't like Sony, you would be right.

HermanV,
You should never use opinion pieces as a basis of fact, because often the reporter has built in biases that covers and clouds up facts.

1.CNET are known HD DVD supporters. They have never written a positive piece on Bluray, and after bluray won, they still could not give it its props.


2.Sales are not dropping like rocks, they are dropping compared to the Christmas season which saw all kinds of deals and bogo to push sales. For years January through June/July have been slow periods for CE companies. People usually pay off their christmas debt during this time period

3. Bluray disc sales are going through the roof. Since the beginning of the year more than 4.6 million disc have been sold in the US ALONE. It took six month last year to accomplish this worldwide. One Disney bluray title sold 20% of the overall sales from DVD, and others from other studio are making the same kinds of in roads into DVD sales.

4. It is fairly obvious that the so called journalist does not know what to look for when comparing DVD to Bluray, or he could not say that the difference is subtle. When you know what to look for, there is no subtlety involved.

5. The author is using a single studio's price point to compare the entire format next to the DVD. I have never paid more than $27 for any of my titles, and most of my titles were $16-20 bucks, and sounded and looked far better than DVD even at a cheaper price. Anti sony folks just like yourself will use price as a talking point, especially HD DVD supporter reporting on bluray players and discs. What they don't tell you is that HD DVD players cheaper prices killed any chance of the formats success, because no manufacturer could make a dime on the players at the price points they were set at. Cheap prices may be great for the consumer, but I am not going to lose close to a billion dollars just to give consumer what they want at the expense of the health of my business. Manufacturers HAVE TO MAKE MONEY, or there is little reason to make a product. When a manufacturer does not make money, you get players with spotty QC, more glitches(like the A-1 XA-1 with slow startups and frequent freezing A-2 with freezing and no analog outs, the XA-2 with the enability to do 24fps 1080p with lip syncing issues, and the A-20 very poor deinterlacer), you get lousy customer services(try ordering a update disc from Toshiba's custormer services), and ultimately you get the failure of the format itself(no need to comment on that!)

6. Slysoft did not crack BD+, they crack the code on one title. BD+ just resets the code, and any disc they did crack is once again secured. That is the beauty of BD+, its ability to repair itself, and quickly. Slysoft unlike dealing with AACS on DVD cannot crack the whole BD+ system in one fair swoop. They have to do it title by title, and every time they crack a title, the studio just resets the code, and the disc is secured again. They still have not been able to deal with BD watermarking. The author does not seem to know crap about BD+.

7. DRM is here to stay. It is not going anywhere. If we didn't have DRM, we probably would not have any HD on disc. No, I would say we WOULDN'T have HD on disc. The studios have just as much right to protect their investments from piracy as we do theives from taking things out of our houses. Just because we buy the disc, does not give us the right to pass it around freely. That right would be too easily abused. Somehow some biased author thinks it is okay to open the door to pirates, and let them run freely everywhere. Movies cost alot of money to make, and the studio have a right to maximize their profits, just like any company with a product does. As long as a disc can play in any bluray player, DRM is invisible to most of us.

8.. His example of POTC 3 as a defect with BD-j is short on facts, and high on drama. 3 million PS3 handled this titles without so much as a pause, did he report that? No, he left it completely ambigous as to leave open the possibility that ALL players were effected. The reality is, only two companies products had a problem with BD-j on this title. Samsung and Panasonic. He also left out the fact that within two day of the titles release there was a firmware update from both companies that dealt with the issue. There are still HD DVD players out there that cannot play some combo discs, but they do not mention that at all. There have been literally hundreds of titles released after POTC 3 with BD-java on them, have you heard any more glitch problems? Nope, so his point is outdated at best.

9. He then turn his venom on profile 2.0 and says that Sony can run a arbitrary code and download anything they want. Well, an internet connection is required on every HD DVD player in existance, does he trust the company that sold American sub secrets to China instead of Sony? Sony does not require an internet connection on all players, and will never do so. Having a 1.1 profile player is all that is required to get the most out of a bluray disc. You choose whether YOU want to download extra's from the net. If you do not connect to the internet, the author rant and rave on that particular subject is moot. If you read the fine printing on any firmware upgrade, it plainly states that Sony cannot and will not download anything that is not publicly announced. More plainly stated, the BDA has plainly stated they do not want an internet connection to be required so it cannot be explored and abused by hackers or manufacturers. How can you fault one format for having an internet connect as an option, but turn a blind eye to the fact that the format they do support requires it? This is called biased journalism, and that makes anything he states nothing more than a man opinion, just like you have, and I have.

10. Player prices are not sky high, but are unchanged from last year. However what you get that you did not have last year is the inclusion of the second HD video codec, high bit streaming audio, internal decoding of all audio formats, and improved performance with fewer glitches with BD-j. None of the newer players that have come out have issues with BD-j, and none of the players currently out are having any more problems with BD-J. What the author does not mention is that HD DVD had bandwidth issues on their software. Universal loaded their disc with so much junk, that all video encodes had to be bit compromised to meet the bandwidth conditions of the format. That is why most titles only had DD+ as opposed to DTHD. The format relied on VC-1 effeciencies(which often compromised perceived tranparency) to fit everything they wanted on a disc. HD DVD has never supported PCM, or Dts MA lossless because they could never get it on the disc. Both Fox and and now Universal support Dts MA lossless because now a majority of the bluray players support it(no HD DVD player did), and the newer players coming to market either decode it internally, or have the ability to pass it through to a reciever.

10.5 When an article has no balance whatsoever, it makes it just that easy to dismiss it. When it contains glaring points of errors and misinformation, you absolutely should dismiss it. When the information is outdated, and does not reflect present market conditions, you should dismiss it as well. When they do not point out that Panasonic has completely sold out its pre orders for the first shipment of the BD-50, and that BD-30 have essentially sold out, that there are shortages of both the S300 and the BD 1400 because of the demand, then its time to completely dismiss the author, and whatever he quotes.

Hate Sony if you want to, but the BDA has control of bluray now, not Sony. Sony is now subject to the opinions of over 300 companies and no longer has control of what happens to the bluray format.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, you've never heard me complain about the price of BR players. I don't think it unreasonable to ask a player to do both SD & HD well, both the Samsung BD-P1200 and Panasonic dmp-10 have shown it can be done and both sold for only $599.00 msrp. People weren't talking "one machine, one job" with SACD playing CD or even now universal players that plays DVD/SACD/CD/mp3 and whatever else. Actually, it's stupid to expect the consumer who is used to a "universal" machine to now be expected to buy one machine for each format. It's the same thing with first let's do decoding in the player and now they want to switch it back to the receiver, and all at the consumers expense. What the hell, they'll just throw it away and buy the new thing.

I do agree that BR's uncompressed audio is significantly better than DD or DTS on DVD. It's not even close. I was using a digital coax feed into a $4k processor and I didn't think I was missing much, when I hooked up the MC analog it was amazing.

Mr. P, here is the rub. When you troll around the different websites and read what bluray folks are looking for in terms of feature sets, better upconversion does not appear on that list. Paidgeek opened a thread and ask openly what features did folks want on the newer Sony players coming out. On top of that list was either bit streaming or internal decoding of all audio formats including the high bit lossy ones. Secondly they wanted HD PIP, and thirdly they wanted 3D. Most owners are not complaining about DVD playback, so the manufacturers are not responding to that at all.

You personally may not be complaining about pricing, but hoards of folks are. When Panasonic announced that the BD-50 would retail at $699(which mean more like $599) folks just belly ached like crazy. This is the first full featured profile 2.0 standalone to hit the market, it is a full $400 cheaper than the first gen 1.0 player, and they still complain.

As far as the 1200 and the dmp-10, neither sold as well as the 1400 and the S300. So its pretty apparent to the powers that be that selling high quality upconversion of DVD's is not a selling point on a bluray player. That was the same problem with the XA-2, they didn't sell inspite of the fact that is upconverted DVD's better than any other HD DVD player did.

It appears the hordes desire for more advance audio decoding completely drowns out your call for better DVD upconversion. I do not think your request is invalid in any way, but the hordes are basically getting what they want because the manufacturers are listening to them.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'll admit this if you admit you are Rich, and live in Texas. Do it man!!!
I think you already did. See above. :lol:

[Mr Peabody]

I can understand decoding of Tru-HD and Dts-HD but why would anyone want PIP. When I watch a movie I just want it to play. I was watching a trailer for some upcoming title and it was talking about the viewer choosing this & that, and 8 possible endings. Maybe some others can give an opinion but I personally don't want to mess with this stuff. Of course, any ending being offered on No Country For Old Men would have been welcome :)

So do I have to join Bluray.com to get heard? I don't think I'm alone in wanting decent DVD playback in a BR player. If so, why would the reviewers be hitting that fault so hard. Maybe those polling need to broaden their scope. This kind of reminds me of when I talk to local radio stations and complain about the repetitiveness and they tell me all their millions of dollars spent on polls show people want to hear their favorite songs over and over while every one I talk to agree radio is too repetitive. So when companies look for feedback, do they really look or do they look where they will find the answer they are looking for. Any how I realize enough has been said and no one on AR so far has agreed with me either, except for Emaidel, I think he eluded to it. Although no one really seemed to care that BR players provide decent playback, they didn't say it wasn't important, they just said they already have a DVD player or will just use another player. CE companies love their adaptibility and willingness to conform. "Bend over and squeal like a pig"!

[hermanv]

HermanV,
You should never use opinion pieces as a basis of fact, because often the reporter has built in biases that covers and clouds up facts.Unlike for example, someone's whose paycheck comes from the industry in question? I'm not disputing your points, it's just that you are as suspect as CNET re opinion on entertainment media.

Reviews are opinions by nature, I assume most people understand that.

My objection to Sony is both their arrogance and of course their criminal behavior. In the later case they installed malicious viruses on personal computers without anyone's permission, it took a sledgehammer to get the virus out (DRM for CD).

US law allows making copies of copyrighted material for personal use, Sony appears to answer to a higher power.

Let's not forget the independent movie critics, they forwarded favorable reviews of Sony pictures to local papers neglecting to mention the little detail that the reviewers were on Sony's payroll.

Wasn't it Columbia (Sony) who was issuing SACD titles that were simply Redbook files in a SACD format and pretending innocence when they were asked why anyone would pay $28.00 for a disk identical to ordinary CD as far as quality?

And a raft of anecdotal reports of Sony refusing to honor equipment warranties.

I have seen good BluRay (and HD DVD) it is quite special, most recordings are limited by things having nothing to do with the disk technology. I believe that was the point about little advantage.

[pixelthis]

Sir Terrence the Terrible]You are full of $hit. You didn't know anymore than anyone else did you lyin sack of dinosaur dookie. Who do you think you are God? Pix, cut the bull, you are not some magic mind reading wonder. YOu are just a lonely a$$ old man who thinks they know more than they do.

NO I DONT THINK I'M "GOD"
(you propose nothing in the sight of pixlethis, BTW)
anyway I have been saying this since the format war started




Some more of you wisdom. Well backwoods ghetto fart, during the last recession both DVD player and DVD disc sales grew 10% year over year. When things get bad, people stop buying cars, refridgerators, stop taking trips, and stop going out to eat. What they do purchase is home entertainment items. Did you know that VHS recorders also sold VERYwell during the 1990-1992 recession? Also, bluray player sales are five times what they were last year at this time, they are only down when compared to December when the big sales push was in effect

THE last "recession" wasnt called that by the powers that be, they save THAT word
for a DEPRESSION,
which is whats coming up, if not here already.
In a recession business slows, in a depression it dies and shrivels up, like its doing now




First, what you do in hickville is not what is done in the bay area, New York, seattle or phoenix. So for you to use your house as an example is nothing more than alot of smoke being blown up everyone a$$. Just because day and date(The Mist is not what I would consider a tier one title) releases are happening on some titles, does not mean joe the public is ordering it. If downloads were doing so well, then why isn't Microsoft or Amazon willing to release what they have rented? I tell you why, everyone knows that business is not doing well, and both are operating at a loss so far this year. VOD is apparently not where the action is because Comcast income from VOD is down from the first quarter of last year, which was down from the first quarter of the year before. I do not know how many times I have to tell you that your little meaningless pile of a life is not everyone's life, so using yourself to make a point is just plain pointless.

No, it was just a huge moneymaker based on a stephen king novel, and MICHEAL COLLINS was also day and date, and this is an increasing trend




Umm, Disney's survey didn't cover me only. It covered about 5000 people who stated they owned 100-200 DVD's.

5,000 people!!! There were more in my graduating class


I hate to brings some new news to you idiot, but collectors are what made DVD the quickest selling video format EVER. You do not build a sell through business(which is what DVD is) on those who have 10-15 discs in their collection, you go after those folks who have 200+ and have the tendency to upgrade whenever a new addition of a disc hit the streets. These are the folks that made DVD a sucess, not renters, and not the casual buyer.

WHAT I said , you have the collector market, but the rental and casual market is what you need, and as long as players are 400 bucks you wont get it.
Cheap players and discs are what made DVD a success, as well as its revolution in PQ.
There is nothing "revolutionary" in Blu, true once you watch it you tend to discard DVD, but once you watch a trinitron its hard to go back to a sanyo.
(I mention the obsolete trinitron because you know nothing but CRT)



Survey after survey has shown that folks that do VOD and downloading are not folks looking for a quality presentations. They are looking for convience. VOD nor downloading appeals to quality minded individual, and if it is going to take off, you need these quality minded folks because they buy alot of product in large numbers. There is a huge resistance to both VOD and downloading within the hometheater community, and it is very easy to see it. Get it through your thick head, folks want to own discs, not low quality bit starved video files. Folks are not ready for servers(they cost too much anyway), and folks do not want to take chances with their movie investment sitting on a hard drive. Every educated analyst who knows the film and video busines(which would exclude you because you do not even know the difference between your a$$ and a hole in the ground) has said that it will take AT LEAST a decade for VOD and downloading to get a viable profit making business plan. That is if the telecoms and cable companies do not stand in the way of the Amazons, Live or Apples downloading. So far what we are seeing is the telecoms and cable companies protecting their infrastructure from the downloaders so they can push VOD. This fracturing of the downloading and VOD business is what will keep VOD and downloading essentially niche process for years to come.

You just dont get it do you?
A "quality" presentation is in the eye of the beholder, and not everybody is a neurotic
control freak who has to have everything perfect, in fact thats not most people.
The quality of VOD is fine, 1080i with DD, exelent by most staandards,
and every casual renter you lose to VOD you will lose for a long time.
YES the usual yes men and arse kissers say VOD will take a decade.
You can consider the source on that one.
These same dandies said solid state storage would take until 2020,
and it would take well into the 21st century for HDTV.
These policy wonks and staticstics crunchers are consistent in one area , they are usually WRONG.
Like YOU :1:

[pixelthis]

Well, will Sony finally get their comeuppances?

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/05/03/blu-ray-sales-tank-reason

Let me save you some reading. Sony BluRay:
1. They don't work for squat.
2. The players are overpriced
3. Software is overpriced,
4. Anti piracy is far more important than consumer satisfaction.
5. Up converted DVD is so close that most movies are a don't care.

You might think I don't like Sony, you would be right.


SONY HAS ITS problems, as does Blu, as did DVD when it first came out.
But that link you posted is the rambling of a mindless hater of all things sony.
yes there was the virus scandal, this has NOTHING to do with Blu whatsoever,
ans Sony learned their lesson.
Know why I wanted a Sony backed format instead of TOSHIBA?

I HAVE HAD A toshiba tv (32in) as did my brother, BOTH BROKE in about a year.
I HAD A TOSH DVD player, it never worked right from the day I HAD IT.
Toshiba has symbolized mediocrity since they started, nothing I have ever had of their performed decently or even worked properly.
They are a name I avoid religiously.
But sony?
I have had four SONYS, two xbr's and a 27 and a 32", AND my parents currently have a wega, as does my brother.
NONE of them have EVER broke, EVER.
As a matter of fact the only thing Sony of mine that did break was a receiver, and that is probably because the cat was behind the setup, he probably shorted the speaker wires.
Sony works well, like it is supposed to, and nothing beats their picture.
Any new format has rough edges, but blu has good "bones", which is why I like it.
As for DRM, your article advocates piracy, a criminal act.
Get used to DRM, its here to stay, asian countries have a history of not respecting
intellectual capital and copyrights, and since our industry has left, copyrights are
all we have left to make money on.
DRM is here to stay, no matter WHAT you're watching, and unlike the brat in your article I WANT CREATIVE PEOPLE TO BE PAID.
I value their work, and I wouldnt work for free, dont expect them to.
Sony and Blu are here to stay, get used to em.
BUT THEY WILL FIND OUT THAT BUILDING AN HD player is something that not only they can do.
others, probably from the far east, will come out with cheaper ways of doing it, they will keep sony honest, make them live up to their high engineering standards.
I saw an inferiour format (vhs) blow a superiour one (beta) out of the water due to the
inept marketing by Sony, and if they listen to the sir talkys of the world history will repeat itself.
BUT UNTIL SOMEONE STEPS UP WITH A CHEAPER ALTERNATIVE, BLU
is it
And that cheaper alternative will have DRM also, bet on it, thats a fact of life from here on out :1:

[Groundbeef]

Unlike for example, someone's whose paycheck comes from the industry in question? I'm not disputing your points, it's just that you are as suspect as CNET re opinion on entertainment media.

Reviews are opinions by nature, I assume most people understand that.

My objection to Sony is both their arrogance and of course their criminal behavior. In the later case they installed malicious viruses on personal computers without anyone's permission, it took a sledgehammer to get the virus out (DRM for CD).

US law allows making copies of copyrighted material for personal use, Sony appears to answer to a higher power.

Let's not forget the independent movie critics, they forwarded favorable reviews of Sony pictures to local papers neglecting to mention the little detail that the reviewers were on Sony's payroll.

Wasn't it Columbia (Sony) who was issuing SACD titles that were simply Redbook files in a SACD format and pretending innocence when they were asked why anyone would pay $28.00 for a disk identical to ordinary CD as far as quality?

And a raft of anecdotal reports of Sony refusing to honor equipment warranties.

I have seen good BluRay (and HD DVD) it is quite special, most recordings are limited by things having nothing to do with the disk technology. I believe that was the point about little advantage.

Actually you can thank the US Congress/Senate for that debacle. You can STILL "copy" copywritten material.

The problem is with the new DRMA that makes it a crime to "break" the encryption to make a "copy".

So if you can figure out a way to make a copy of a copywritten work (That you legally own I must add) and do it without circumvention of the encryption you are home free. Easy no?

[ldgibson76]

Hello Everyone.

So far, the opinions that have been stated regarding the "what, why and how's" of Blu ray marketing and sales, all have some similence of credibility. I say "similence" because of the pereption/reality ratio!

I really do believe that there are some that live in a state of denial! (The 51st State!):shocked: There are actually folks out there that believe the economy is fine!:shocked:
The disregard/denial of the current economic conditions sometimes borders on the criminal!
Let's not get it twisted "Sir T". The economy does and will continue to weigh heavily on blu ray's survival. Check that, it's ability to become the dominate force in home entertainment. And don't think for a second that that's not the BDA's ultimate goal!
Just in my area, within a 15 mile radius, there's 3 Best Buys (Super Stores). And they usually serve as a good barometer of how the market is faring. With my job, I'm able to visit each store at least once a week. Man, in the 7 years I've lived in Northern Delaware, I've never seen Best Buy(s) look so.....trying to use the right description without being dramatic:yikes: "DEAD!" Now considering that this is the slowest time of the year for retailers, talking with the employees (manager's) I've become acquainted with, they, and I'm talking all three locations, say that this is the worst it's ever been. Sales are down across the board. Yes, the PS3 is still selling but not as well. The shelves are loaded with PS3's and let's not even mention standalone Bluray players. If they do have any on the shelves, it's the Sony S300 model, or a couple of out of box Sharp BD-HP20U models.
And the only reason they have the Sony is because it's the least expensive of the current models available. (That has change since. Prices have dropped. Now you have 5 players that are priced at $399. Sony's S300, PS3; Samsung's 1400/1500 (backordered); the Sharp 20). Was the price lowered to make room for the new models coming, or was it to try and stimulate sales?! We'll see if the price drop increases sales! Now, one can say that the decrease in overall sales is in part due to location and demographics. That could be the case in some markets, Northern Delaware for the most part, is considered an affluent area. But this economy is brutal right now and Blu ray for the majority is considered a luxury item.
Accentuating the positive is commendable. But as food, energy and services soar in price, buying and/or renting a luxury item becomes less of a priority.
By the way, Sir T, this post was not directed to you. It's just a response to all the posts submitted.
Hopefully, the BDA/Sony are paying attention to what's going on! Failure to do so will ultimately take Blu ray out of the mainstream and make it niche product.

An Addendum:
I recently purchase a "new in the box" leftover Samsung BD-P1200. Yes, I know! One of the most problematic Blu ray players out there, but guess what, It was priced at that magic number....$200.00! Plus, it addressed my concerns regarding standard dvd playback (HQV and all). And it's firmware updated! So it has played without issue, so far!:sosp:
So what, it can't decode DTHD or DTSHD/MA. My system as of right know is not capable of the hi -res audio technology (HDMI v1.3), but my tv can accept a high def video signal and that's fine with me for now. I will upgrade when it's financially wise to do so. Like most of the real people out there who would like to, but have other priorities! And I really can't see how anyone would purchase Best Buy's "Newly Released" movies on Blu ray!
At an average of $30.00 a pop, I'll never buy movies from them! Can you say "Amazon!" Yeah, I know!
I'm late to the party!:o

Regards.
(My innate ability to state the obvious sometimes even surprises me):idea:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Unlike for example, someone's whose paycheck comes from the industry in question? I'm not disputing your points, it's just that you are as suspect as CNET re opinion on entertainment media.

I do work in the film industry, but I was working there BEFORE anyone every heard of bluray. My paycheck comes whether there is a bluray or not. So any attempt to tie my opinion to bluray as a format is at best disengenous, and at it worse, a stretch.


Reviews are opinions by nature, I assume most people understand that.

This is not a review, it is an opinion piece. A highly inaccurate opinion piece with alot of omission, alot of twisting of the truth, but mostly blind biased hate.


My objection to Sony is both their arrogance and of course their criminal behavior. In the later case they installed malicious viruses on personal computers without anyone's permission, it took a sledgehammer to get the virus out (DRM for CD).

As I have said before, great, hate Sony. But Sony is no longer in control of the bluray format. That now belongs to the BDA, and Sony is just a voting member on the board. So, you would hit Sony up for this, yet turn a blind eye to Toshiba selling our sub secrets to Russia? Do you have Toshiba as well?


US law allows making copies of copyrighted material for personal use, Sony appears to answer to a higher power.

You are more than welcome to make a copy of a bluray disc if you can figure out how to do it without breaking BD+ and BD watermark. It is against the law to break encyption algorythms, but it is not against the law to copy a disc.


Let's not forget the independent movie critics, they forwarded favorable reviews of Sony pictures to local papers neglecting to mention the little detail that the reviewers were on Sony's payroll.

I got some news for ya Herman, all the studio used to do this. It was a great tool for creating a positive buzz for upcoming movies. Sony got caught, the other didn't, so now do you hate ALL of the studios now? They are all just as guilty as Sony in this practice.


Wasn't it Columbia (Sony) who was issuing SACD titles that were simply Redbook files in a SACD format and pretending innocence when they were asked why anyone would pay $28.00 for a disk identical to ordinary CD as far as quality?

As long as the files are encoded in DSD its officially a SACD. It would be the same principle as encoding tape to DSD. There is no rule that says a SACD has to be recorded in DSD, edited in DSD, to be presented in DSD to be a SACD. They can encode from a variety of sources including redbook(or an upsampled version of redbook), as long as the data stream is DSD.

Alot of record companies were releasing redbook CD with only 14bits of true data, do you hate them as well?


And a raft of anecdotal reports of Sony refusing to honor equipment warranties.

Pioneer, Toshiba, and Panasonic have all been accused of refusing to honor equipment warranties, do you hate them as well?


I have seen good BluRay (and HD DVD) it is quite special, most recordings are limited by things having nothing to do with the disk technology. I believe that was the point about little advantage.

You mean to tell me that you have seen all 527 bluray movies released??? This is the only way you can qualify the word "most" when you speak of bluray offering little advantage. I own 350+ bluray movies, and have quite frankly compared many of them against their DVD counterpart, and one would have to be blind as a bat, and deaf as a post to miss the visual and audio improvement of bluray over DVD.

[hermanv]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

In no particular order:
14 bit Redbook CDs were issued when the technology for 16 bits wasn't mature or affordable, at that time it was believed by even industry pundits that 16 bits was overkill. We now know better. The issue about SACD has to do with intent. You are right about the standard, but there's this lost concept called ethics. They charged double! I know few corporations can be trusted, I am not naive, but Sony does seem to concentrate more wrongful behavior under one corporate umbrella

Issuing a press release lauding your studios latest film is quite different from using a phony name and identifying yourself as an independent reviewer - again this goes to intent to deceive.

Warranty support does rise and fall in various corporations, I only note more vehemence and outrage against Sony on forums where these issues are often discussed.

About BluRay vs standard DVD, my point was that I can easily see differences in picture quality of standard DVD's, a better format by itself will not fix this. Garbage in garbage out.

[ldgibson76]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

When he get's on a roll, there's nothing that can stop him! :incazzato::yikes: :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

You ain't kiddin' mister!!! :lol:

[ldgibson76]

You ain't kiddin' mister!!! :lol:
I mean, we've seen "Sir T" let someone (Pix) have it for up to 2 pages of rebuttals and criticisms! on one topic!:yikes:
That's OK "Sir T"! Defend your beloved industry to the death!
The BDA should bestow you "Knighthood!" OPEC should hire you to debate/promote their cause for world wide extortion!:10:

Holla!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hello Everyone.

So far, the opinions that have been stated regarding the "what, why and how's" of Blu ray marketing and sales, all have some similence of credibility.

I really do believe that there are some that live in a state of denial! (The 51st State!):shocked: There are actually folks out there that believe the economy is fine!:shocked:
The disregard/denial of the current economic conditions sometimes borders on the criminal!
Let's not get it twisted "Sir T". The economy does and will continue to weigh heavily on blu ray's survival. Check that, it's ability to become the dominate force in home entertainment. And don't think for a second that that's not the BDA's ultimate goal!

Rather than just make statements, let's look at history. During the 1990-92 recession everyone thought that the sale of VHS recorders were going to majorly tank, and rentals were going to follow it down the tube. VHS ended up growing 10%+ both years, and rentals went through the roof. Car sales hit the skids, and air travel hit the skids, but folks kept buying home entertainment stuff, because it offered more value for your entertainment dollar. Could VHS sales and rental have been better if there was no recession? Probably, but who knows.

In the recession of 2002-03 folks thought that DVD player and disc sales would drop significantly. Instead it grew, and it grew faster during that period than it did 2000-01. Could sales have grown faster if there was no recession? Sure, but they certainly did not tank like everyone thought they would.

Can the current recession slow down bluray adoption? Yes it can. But I am sure the BDA is more worried about creating the huge infrastructure needed to support the bluray format in the future. Manufacturers are still not ramped up to meet demand for players. Replication is still gaining capacity, and another unexpected benefit of the bluray format is putting a little more pressure on current capacity, high definition music titles. Bluray is a worldwide format. In the US we are facing a recession. Canada is not, and neither is the European Union. Sales of players there are booming, and that is why quite frankly there are player shortages in this country. In spite of our current recession, bluray players are selling at five times the rate they were last year at this time. Sales probably could be better if the manufacturers could at least meet the demand they have right now.



Just in my area, within a 15 mile radius, there's 3 Best Buys (Super Stores). And they usually serve as a good barometer of how the market is faring. With my job, I'm able to visit each store at least once a week. Man, in the 7 years I've lived in Northern Delaware, I've never seen Best Buy(s) look so.....trying to use the right description without being dramatic:yikes: "DEAD!" Now considering that this is the slowest time of the year for retailers, talking with the employees (manager's) I've become acquainted with, they, and I'm talking all three locations, say that this is the worst it's ever been. Sales are down across the board. Yes, the PS3 is still selling but not as well. The shelves are loaded with PS3's and let's not even mention standalone Bluray players. If they do have any on the shelves, it's the Sony S300 model, or a couple of out of box Sharp BD-HP20U models.

Since your opinion is based a snapshot of your local area, I can give you my rather different view. I live in the Bay Area, another very affluent area. We have two very large Best Buys and a Circuit city in my area. I went to the one in Emeryville on yesterday, and over the weekend. One of my best friends is manager of that store. I talk to him every time I go in and he is there. He says that overall business and foot traffic is down. However he also mentioned that bluray disc sales are extremely brisk, but he complained that player shortages are keeping player sales down. He said that they get their shipment of players on tuesday's, and by thursday they are completely sold out. This is especially true of the Sony S300 and the Samsung 1400. When I asked him about getting my hands on a Panny BD-50, he told me that the first shipment is already pre-sold out. He also stated that the PS3 and its accessories are selling like crazy. I saw they had none on the shelves.

I went to the Best buy in Richmond, no S300 and no 1400's. When I asked when they were getting a new shipment, they told me tuesday," but I better be here on tuesday to buy because they are usually gone by the weekend". When I walked by the bluray disc section within the DVD area, there were more people around the bluray rack than the combined total of people looking at DVD's in the entire section. No PS3 anywhere to be found, and no Wii either.

Circuit City, no S300 and just one 1400. The bluray disc rack looked like a hurricane went through it. Traffic looked just like any typical weekend.

Two affluent areas, two different perspective.


And the only reason they have the Sony is because it's the least expensive of the current models available. (That has change since. Prices have dropped. Now you have 5 players that are priced at $399. Sony's S300, PS3; Samsung's 1400/1500 (backordered); the Sharp 20). Was the price lowered to make room for the new models coming, or was it to try and stimulate sales?!

Since Walmart has stated that they are having player shortages, as well as Best Buy and Circuit city, they do not need cut player prices to stimulate demand. The demand is already there. Sales of players in Europe are doing exceptionally well, and that is part of why there are player shortages here. When you look at the larger picture(instead of your own personal snapshot) bluray is doing pretty well even considering the economic slowdown in the US.




We'll see if the price drop increases sales! Now, you can say that the decrease in overall sales is in part due to the location and demographics. I beg to differ. Northern Delaware is a very affluent area. But this economy is brutal right now and Blu ray for the majority is considered a luxury item.

The Bay Area is also an affluent region, and my experience here differs from your there, so it is a regional thing. Yes the economy is brutal, but it was equally as brutal(if not worse) in 2002-03 and DVD players and disc sales grew. If you looked at the trends back then, only the higher priced DVD players saw a sales slowdown. The lower priced DVD players sold like crazy, as people trended down their purchases, but not phased it out. The same thing is happening with bluray. The lower priced players are doing very well, and the higher priced models are seeing a slowdown(or lack of availability).

When you look at NDP sales from a year ago, bluray players sales are five times that of that period. When you look at disc sales last year, they are trending FAR ahead this year, hitting milestones of last year months earlier this year.


Accentuating the positive is commendable. But as food, energy and services soar in price, buying and/or renting a luxury item becomes less of a priority.

Your idea of a luxury item is far too small. A car is a luxury item. A trip to Europe is a luxury item. A bluray player is not considered a luxury item. Its not a necessity, but hardly a luxury item. That is like saying a DVD is a luxury item. I was not accentuating anything. I am just posting what I see, read, and hear. Our economy is doing bad, but Europe and Asia are not. Canada is also doing well. Bluray players sales at all price points are doing very well there. Here, the lower priced players are selling very well, even if there is a slowdown from the holiday season. Disc sales are doing exceptionally well from all accounts. If there is anything bad to say about bluray right now, it is shortages, not lack of sales.


By the way, Sir T, this post was not directed to you. It's just a response to all the posts submitted.
Hopefully, the BDA/Sony are paying attention to what's going on! Failure to do so will ultimately take Blu ray out of the mainstream and make it niche product.

Well, considering you have called my name specifically TWICE, this is pretty hard to believe. When one directs a response to all, they do not usually mention anyones name.

The BDA is paying attention to the economic news in the US. But they are also paying attention to very positive strength in sales in Japan and Europe. Bluray is a worldwide format, and its death and life is not dependant on just one region. I am not going to raise any red flag until the entire world is in a economic recession.


An Addendum:
I just purchase a "new in the box" leftover Samsung BD-P1200. Yes, I know! One of the most problematic Blu ray players out there, but guess what, It was priced at that magic number....$200.00! And it's firmware updated! So it has played without issue, so far!:sosp:
So what, it can't decode DTHD or DTSHD/MA. My system as of right know is not capable of the audio technology (HDMI v1.3), but my tv can accept a high def video signal and that's fine with me for now. I will upgrade when it's financially wise to do so. Like most of the real people out there who would like to, but have other priorities! And I really don't see how Best Buy sells "any" Blu ray software/movies!
At an average of $30.00 a pop, I'll never buy movies from them! Can you say "Amazon!" Yeah, I know!
I'm late to the party!:o

Well, for all you argue against bluray, it didn't stop you from getting a player did it? And just like it didn't stop you, it ain't stoppin other folks either. If you are looking for a bluray bargain, you will find it.

You have taken several swipes at me, just like you have done in previous discussions on this issue. For as many scenarios you threw out there, not much turned into a reality. When I stated that Warner was going blu, you said they were going red, and you are pretty confident they would. They didn't. You mentioned a series of scenarios that would derail bluray adoption, so far none of them are playing out. You have this penchant of looking at what is happen in this country as a reflection of what is happening everywhere. That is not the way this works when the platform is worldwide. What's a problem in the US may not be a problem elsewhere. One of the reasons Toshiba threw in the towel was because bluray had such a overwhelming presence in both Europe and Japan. They were battling in one region, and losing their shirt in the process. There is really no rush to push the bluray format. We can clearly see that apparently DVD is not enough for consumers, or sales would not be falling 2% year after year. If it was not for the strong bluray sales this year, DVD sales would have fallen 4% this last quarter.

So if you asked me could the economy hurt bluray adoption? I would say no. Folks will do like they always have done during economic slowdowns, they will buy the cheapest players and buy disc. History has proven this time and time again. When the economy improves, then the sale of higher end players will pickup. There is no point in CE history that the consumer just stop buying electronics during a recession. They just bought the least expensive electronics until thing got better.

[Smokey]

Wow, so much divers opinions on blu ray subject.

Appreciate everybody response including Sit TT long posts. I get a hint that Sir TT working for industry and his defense of Blu ray have cause some to accuse him of being biased. I am not one of them :D, but 100% defense of Sony or BDA seem to have raised some eye brows

IMO it is only fair to hear other side of stories behind blu ray. The link hermanv provided seem to be more Sony basher than anything, but it shows Sony/BDA heavy handiness toward its product. Given that they have every right to protect their commodity, there is such a thing as being overprotective.

For example everybody thought that SACD and DVD-A would replace CD, but those behind hi-res formats including Sony got so overprotective (hi-res only in analog output) that consumers just ignore them and it failed.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

I directed the hate comment to the article. And you do not have to state the word "hate" for the intention to be there.


In no particular order:
14 bit Redbook CDs were issued when the technology for 16 bits wasn't mature or affordable, at that time it was believed by even industry pundits that 16 bits was overkill.

The redbook standard has always had the format at 16bits. Affordable or not. It was never altered from 14bits, to the current 16bits, EVER! to fit a price point. The bottom line is the spec called for 16bit decimation, and the manufacturers were producing players that had substandard D/A conversion that had the equvilent of 14bits. Once again, did you hate all of the manufacturers for their sins as much as you hate Sony for theirs? The produced players that didn't make spec, and even had the nerve to paste a badge that said 16bit digital audio on the faceplate.


We now know better. The issue about SACD has to do with intent. You are right about the standard, but there's this lost concept called ethics.

How do you know what their intent was? You know what you THINK their intent was, but do your really think they are just trying to pull the wool over folks eyes when all they had to do was simple signal analysis to get to the truth. Could your hate of Sony make their intent always the worst? I think so.



They charged double! I know few corporations can be trusted, I am not naive, but Sony does seem to concentrate more wrongful behavior under one corporate umbrella

And Microsoft is any better? Toshiba better? How about Best Buy and Circuit City for mislabeling DTV? You have a double standard that makes everything Sony does twice as wrong as everyone else, even when they are doing exactly the same thing. You cannot speak of ethics in a biased fashion, it loses its credibility as being something that is actually good.


Issuing a press release lauding your studios latest film is quite different from using a phony name and identifying yourself as an independent reviewer - again this goes to intent to deceive.

All the studios did this at one time. Sony got busted. But it doesn't change the fact that all studio did it. Its disengenous to try and restate what was widely done by every studio as being particularly evil because Sony did it. Every studio has used phony names and publications to pump up the buzz of their films. If Sony is bad for doing it, then all are bad for doing it. Sony is not worse than the others, unless its now okay to have a double standard when it comes to judgements and perceptions against corporations.


Warranty support does rise and fall in various corporations, I only note more vehemence and outrage against Sony on forums where these issues are often discussed.

In other words you are noting what you want to see because you hate Sony, and turning a blind eye to the other corporations that do the same thing. I suppose you are taking the high road here? Sony is not the great evil corporation, some would give that label to Microsoft.


About BluRay vs standard DVD, my point was that I can easily see differences in picture quality of standard DVD's, a better format by itself will not fix this. Garbage in garbage out.

Actually it does. DVD has a far smaller pipeline than bluray. It is obvious you can acheive far better picture quality when you have to compress less, use less(or none) edge enhancement to sharpen the picture, you can devote more bits to the background, you do not need prefiltering, you have a wider color gamut, and far more lines of resolution Obviously these benefits do nothing to improve the picture quality:rolleyes5:

Herman, your double standard is pretty obvious here. You have a right to hate or dislike who(m)ever you choose. But if you are going to make ethics the basis of that arguement, it might be helpful if that ethics arguement wasn't plagued by a double standard arguement as well.

[ldgibson76]

Slow down "Cow Poke"!

I wasn't taking a swipe at you. I respect your explanation and perspective on the subject. Not once did I criticize you. And yes, I did refer to you twice in the post, but it wasn't an all out assault on "Sir T!"
I agree, two different markets, two different responses to market conditions.
"Sir T", recognize when you are actually receiving a compliment on your knowledge. Just because someone wants to debate you doesn't mean they are trying to discredit your opinion.
As far as what I consider a luxury item.....I bet if you asked the average person out there if Blu ray was considered a luxury item during these times, I'm pretty confident that the majority would agree with that observation. And how can you compare a CAR to a blu ray player! A car is a necessity in this country! A $50,000 car is a luxury item! One other thing, in 2002, the DVD was a completely established medium. No competition from other formats and the economic downturn was nowhere near the levels it is now. Were the fuel prices $4.00 a gallon in 2002?! Was the price of food increasing at the same time!?! Yes, 9/11 had a dramatic effect, but, nowhere close to what's happening now! Now, "Sir T" if you dispute that fact, then you are really out of touch with the current economic crisis.
Nothing wrong with you having your point of view. Were all entitled! But, the U.S. is the most important market on this planet. I'm sure that if Canada had the economic downturn the US has had, but the US economy was status quo, the BDA would be concerned, but not to the extent it is for the US. You can say the same for Europe and Asia! Granted, both are important markets, but the US is the where the success is truly measured!
I'm not trying to have a pissing match with you. I told you before, I concede when it comes to the format war. And yes, I purchased a blu ray player, on the cheap mind you. I refuse, like many refuse to spend $500.00 on one. Not to mention, that during the Christmas holidays, the Sony and the Samsung could be had for $299! Ever since HD DVD went defunct, the prices surged back up to $399 retail. And guess what, sales slowed down. So much has contributed to the slow down of the BDP's. Now, if the price had remained at the $299.00 price point, then I'm sure the demand for the players would be much higher. Why would the manufacturer's of these products have such a hard time producing these players?! You say the replication process is a difficult one. OK, I'll drink your kool aid, but if that is the cause, why has Sony been able to produce so many PS3's? Why, because of demand! If there was such a nationwide demand for standalone players, it's only academic that the manufacturer's would be putting these player's out with the quickness....firmware updates be damned! Supply and demand dictates pricing. With competition...$299! No compettion...$399+! And let's not go there about the needed updates! That alone was enough to slow down demand, PS3 not withstanding! "Sir T", I'm not against blu ray. I want it to succeed. It is the superior technology. I, like others on this website recognize what's going on and things are bordering on critical! Blu ray will survive and eventually become the force we believe it is. Timing is everything and we are in bad times right now!
And don't take this as if I'm labeling you as "out of touch". The views you have expressed regarding the economic conditions and how it has or hasn't effected Bluray's market penatration, IMO, is in fact questionable, and at the least, debatable. Sometimes you sound like "Dubya!":lol:

You're still the man!
Peace!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I mean, we've seen "Sir T" let someone (Pix) have it for up to 2 pages of rebuttals and criticisms! on one topic!:yikes:
That's OK "Sir T"! Defend your beloved industry to the death!
The BDA should bestow you "Knighthood!" OPEC should hire you to debate/promote their cause for world wide extortion!:10:

Holla!

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?

[Smokey]

When he get's on a roll, there's nothing that can stop him! :incazzato::yikes: :biggrin5:

You seen nothing yet. You should have been here back in '01 where Sir TT and other heavy weights such as Doc Greene or Adam get into it. Sometimes they crash AR site :D

[Rich-n-Texas]

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?
Whoa up there pardner! Have a seat. Loosen your collar. Light up wonna them Cuban stogies you got stashed away in your drawer there!

I think Mr. Gibson was speaking with tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Gibson, he goes by "Sir Talks-alot" but his real name is Mr. Clean. You know, the guy on the liquid cleanser bottle? :D Also, he's half Cuban, so you know how THAT goes. :crazy:

:ciappa: <== Mr. T.

[ldgibson76]

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?

Will you stop it! No one's bashing you! I have nothing but respect for you! Just because we differ in opinion doesn't mean I don't like you man! :mad2: :D
You have interesting perspectives and it's very entertaining indulging in a little banter with you.
It's a real hoot when you go nuts on "Groundbeef" and "Pix".
Like I said, defend your industry with pride. State your opinion/viewpoint and then wave your victory flag:20:

Holla!

[ldgibson76]

You seen nothing yet. You should have been here back in '01 where Sir TT and other heavy weights such as Doc Greene or Adam get into it. Sometimes they crash AR site :D

That's funny! :lol: I can imagine! He seems to be in a bad mood today. You think if I shoot him a few compliments he'll lighten up?! He's so sensitive lately!:D

Regards

[ldgibson76]

Whoa up there pardner! Have a seat. Loosen your collar. Light up wonna them Cuban stogies you got stashed away in your drawer there!

I think Mr. Gibson was speaking with tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Gibson, he goes by "Sir Talks-alot" but his real name is Mr. Clean. You know, the guy on the liquid cleanser bottle? :D Also, he's half Cuban, so you know how THAT goes. :crazy:

:ciappa: <== Mr. T.

Yeah, he gets all "Tony Montana" on ya, in a "AudioReview Forums" kind of way!:crazy:
"Say 'ello to my little OPINION!!!!:incazzato: "

"Sir T", we're only kidding with ya! If we didn't mess with you, then you would think sumthin's wrong! Go take a bubble bath with the stogie R-n-T so kindly suggested! It's a Tony Montana thing!
But your perspective about the market is still whacked! :crazy: :lol: HA!

Peace!

[filecat13]

Let's face it: if we stopped buying products from companies with unethical practices, we wouldn't be able to shop anymore. Sure, some companies pi$$ us off more than others, but there's not a clean pair of underwear covering the a$$ of any major corporation.

The old saying caveat emptor is as true today as ever, and anyone who doesn't go into the marketplace with a critical eye is easy prey for the unscrupulous seller. Typical consumers don't care about such things and can usually only handle one or two specific incidences of consumer self-righteousness at a time. I use the term "self-righteousness" because consumers are generally just as unethical as the companies they decry.

So yeah, I don't buy soccer balls from manufacturers who use child slave labor, or baby toys from companies that use lead paint, or beef from companies that abuse animals before they kill them so I can eat 'em (I want unabused dead cows), but Jeez, I do want nice soccer balls for a cheap price, and shiny toys for under a dollar, and I love a nice, big steak, so I gotta buy something!

In the CE space, I don't care who makes a product, sells it, controls it, or profits from it nearly as much as I care about getting the best I can for the least amount of money. Of course, it has to be something I really want, too. At least I can control buying stuff I don't really care about--some people can't even do that.

With BluRay, I'm still waiting for the "must-have" moment, and it's just not going to come from the video side. When (if) BluRay audio discs hit my sweet spot (best sound for the least amount of money), then I'll buy from whomever I want who has the most compelling product. And I'll still be getting most of my video and once-watched movies off iTunes or another service and not wasting money on once-watched BluRay discs.

OTOH, if one of my watch-it-once-a-month movies comes along in a must-have HD version, who knows? If I already have a player, I might bite.

[ldgibson76]

No response from "Sir T"! He must be pissed!, or finally having a life! "Sir T", If you are pissed, don't be. We have nothin' but love for ya!:thumbsup:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

[Mr Peabody]

A couple thoughts as I am getting caught up on today's additions;

Filecat and Sir T have a point that Sony isn't the only crooks behind a corporation but "because everyone else does it" don't justify Sony doing the same thing. We didn't accept that excuse from our kids and I sure ain't going to accept it from businessmen who should have some semblence of honor. Has Capitalism become to mean screw them before they screw me?

Pix, I have a newsflash for you, Sony is not immune to defective products. My Sony 975 DVD player had to go back because it went bad before my 30 day return was up. My Sony 30" Wega HDTV went bad just after the factory warranty went out, if I hadn't bought the extended warranty that TV would have been a boat anchor instead of the object of my kids abuse. Knock on wood, I have not had any issue with a Toshiba product. I also have had Sony products that gave me long years of service without fault. Every company is bound to get a bad batch of chips or a robot assembler who smoked Crack at lunch that will flub up a run of product. It's how the company deals with it that matters most.

Also ldgibson hinted that DVD playback was important in a BR player, or was that further justification for buying a flipping BR machine, I vote the former as I take what I can get. In my mind there's 3 of us now. Sir T, my grassroots movement is growing, soon the BDA will have to listen.

[ldgibson76]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

OK! You're right! My bad! I retract the "having a life" comment.

"Sir T", I apologize.

And your perspective is not "whacked!" "Unique" is more appropriate description.

Regards.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Slow down "Cow Poke"!

My name is Sir Talks alot mister :10:


I wasn't taking a swipe at you. I respect your explanation and perspective on the subject. Not once did I criticize you. And yes, I did refer to you twice in the post, but it wasn't an all out assault on "Sir T!"

You confuse me. On one hand you say this was not directed towards me, then you go all "twisted" on me and mention my name. This make me go plum loco :crazy:


I agree, two different markets, two different responses to market conditions.
"Sir T", recognize when you are actually receiving a compliment on your knowledge. Just because someone wants to debate you doesn't mean they are trying to discredit your opinion.

It would be helpful if I knew I was actually receiving a compliment. Didn't know I was.


As far as what I consider a luxury item.....I bet if you asked the average person out there if Blu ray was considered a luxury item during these times, I'm pretty confident that the majority would agree with that observation.

I am sure someone said this about DVD players in the last recession we had. We you look at the facts closely, a $300-500 dollar purchase is nothing next to a $4000 vacation, or a $25,000 car. Its these kinds of things that get hit during recessions, not bluray or DVD players. Consumer tend to buy MORE of these during recessions because a trip to the movie theater is cost prohibative for a family of 5. I went to see Iron Man on Saturday. Ticket to get in at the matinee, $6. The cost of one large popcorn and soda, $9.50. Add that times five and you can get two or three blurays for that price. Plus you have to spend money for gas AND parking. If you do not go to the matinee then the price is $12.50 times five, the parking, gas, and the popcorn and soda. I could buy 6 blurays at the cost of a single evening at the movies. Folks do not give up home entertainment, they give up vacations, car purchases and large ticket items. History has proven this.



And how can you compare a CAR to a blu ray player! A car is a necessity in this country!

In New York City, San Francisco, Chicago most folks in the city do not own cars. Public transit makes cars a luxury. I have alot of friends who live in the suburbs in the east bay, they do not own cars, they take bart or bus everywhere. Cars are not required to exist. People who do not own cars do not have lives that suddenly come to an end.


A $50,000 car is a luxury item! One other thing, in 2002, the DVD was a completely established medium. No competition from other formats and the economic downturn was nowhere near the levels it is now.

Bluray has no competition from other formats, its competition threw in the towel. VOD and downloading is not bluray's competition. The folks that support this do not buy or collect movies, and are not looking for quality. They are looking for convience. As far as the economy not being worse than it is now, most economic analyst would disagree. We have an unemployement rate of over 7% back then, its around 5.5% now. Unemployement was so bad, they upped the amount of unemployment payments here in Cali, and they extended the time. We lost about 60% of our manufacturering base to layoff in the midwest, something we have never recovered from. So many folks were unemployed so long they stopped looking, or took two or three lower paying jobs to make ends meet. Many would argue that 2002-03 was far worse than what we are seeing now.


Were the fuel prices $4.00 a gallon in 2002?! Was the price of food increasing at the same time!?! Yes, 9/11 had a dramatic effect, but, nowhere close to what's happening now! Now, "Sir T" if you dispute that fact, then you are really out of touch with the current economic crisis.

To say 9/11 had a just a dramatic effect is the understatement of this century. The travel industry, hotels, and the tourist trade in this country was decimated for years. How bad it is now compared to back then is a matter of perspective. Going on just the facts and figures, nobody can say what is happening today is worse. We have not seen anywhere near the amount of layoffs we saw during the last recession. The only sector really getting hit hard is the financial sector. Yes gas and food prices are getting higher, but you have just made my point. People buy more home entertainment stuff during times like this so they do not have to pay for the high cost of gas and high entertainment cost just to have a decent evening. They just pop a bluray disc in a player, make their own popcorn and drinks, and bam you have an evening. This is the way it has been through every recession as far as I can remember. Back in 2002-03, Disney saw a 65% drop in business at their theme parks. Just today on our website I saw that revenue is up 53% at our theme parks. Disney revenue for DVD's and blurays is also up in the first quarter of this year, yes right in the middle of a recession.


Nothing wrong with you having your point of view. Were all entitled! But, the U.S. is the most important market on this planet. I'm sure that if Canada had the economic downturn the US has had, but the US economy was status quo, the BDA would be concerned, but not to the extent it is for the US.

Sorry, but the US is no longer the most important market on this planet. Right now that goes to China and Europe. Did you know that Europe will pass the US in overall bluray disc sales by summer? Ya probably didn't. Did you know they have sold far more standalone bluray players in Europe than in the US? Ya probably didn't. Did you know they have sold almost as many PS3 in Japan as they have in all of the US? Ya probably didn't. For the bluray format, Europe is probably the most important market right now. They will be the first to experience movie and television downloads via the PS3, not us. The US follows them, and Japan is not all that far behind us. In the US demand for players is outstripping supply, so until the BDA can catch up, I am sure they are not all that worried, UNLESS this recession last longer than the last.



You can say the same for Europe and Asia! Granted, both are important markets, but the US is the where the success is truly measured!

Not anymore my friend. Multinational companies look at the world, not just one region. Its our arrogance that makes us believe that we are the $hit. But the places flush with money(the middle east) go to Europe to buy their major goods, and the combined GNP of the European Union is larger than the US. They have 30% of the worlds GDP! With 500 million people, they are a much bigger market than the US.


I'm not trying to have a pissing match with you. I told you before, I concede when it comes to the format war. And yes, I purchased a blu ray player, on the cheap mind you. I refuse, like many refuse to spend $500.00 on one. Not to mention, that during the Christmas holidays, the Sony and the Samsung could be had for $299!

Didn't you find out that you do not have to spend $500 dollar to get a bluray player? If you did, other can(or did) too. Again you have made a point of mine. This report that bluray player sales are down 40% is based on sales of players during the holidays when bogo and player discounts were abundant. This also happens every year with DVD players, televisions, and various other consumer electronics. When the sales disappear, and folks have to start paying back debt, the CE industry goes into a sales doldrum. It happens every year from January to perhaps June or July. Then it picks up again in the 3rd and 4th quarters. When you combine that with the FACT that there are player shortages everywhere, anyone can see this THIS particular framing of the sales drop of bluray players is quite disengenous. Its not because they are too expensive, its not that they are crap, and its not DRM that is hurting sales. Its just a typical post holiday cycle that happens every year.


Ever since HD DVD went defunct, the prices surged back up to $399 retail.

Holiday discounts are not regular bluray pricing. The average pre holiday price for players was $399. The players were discounted during the holidays. After the holidays the prices returned back to the pre holiday average levels. The prices have not surged, get your fact straight.


And guess what, sales slowed down.

The price is not why sales slowed down, you do not know your facts here.


So much has contributed to the slow down of the BDP's. Now, if the price had remained at the $299.00 price point, then I'm sure the demand for the players would be much higher.

You do not know this for a fact, so this is just speculation. You got your player for far less than $299 didn't you? There are players out there for less than $299 aren't they? Amazon is offering the BDP 1400 for $270. You can find the S300 for around $299 right now. Your BS'ing here, no offense.


Why would the manufacturer's of these products have such a hard time producing these players?! You say the replication process is a difficult one. OK, I'll drink your kool aid, but if that is the cause, why has Sony been able to produce so many PS3's?

A. Because this is not built around the DVD like HD DVD was. This requires new tooling from the ground up, new chipsets, new workflow processes, different parts all of which manufacturer has to be brought up to capacity. Currently manufacturing is moving around, and is not quite settled. Sigma(the chip company most bluray manufacturers use) has to make custom designes for each manufacturer, create the tooling to make the chips, and build the factories as well. Nobody expected bluray sales to go from 80 to 200mph in a single month, but it did.

The PS3 is not built like a standalone. It uses the Cell processor, the standalones use SOC. The design and manufacturing of the PS3 was created from existing manufacturing lines that Sony has previously set up a long time ago. Mostly all of early production of blu lasers went to the PS3, which effectively knocked back the standalones manufacturing process. Getting chipset manufacturing up to speed is part of the standalones problem. Making a bluray player is NOT like making a DVD player. They are much more complex. Sony has plenty of experience making game machines, so putting the PS3 together is much easier to Sony than putting together a standalone player based around SOC solutions.



Why, because of demand! If there was such a nationwide demand for standalone players, it's only academic that the manufacturer's would be putting these player's out with the quickness....firmware updates be damned!

You cannot say this setting in your house, and having never made a player in your life. Too many armchair quarterbacks have no idea of the complexity of putting together a parts and manufacture chain for a brand new product. You also cannot take such a cavalier attitude about firmware upgrades. The manufacturers would rather not do it, because there is the chance the end user can brick the player if they do not know what they are doing. Your assumptions of simplicity are out of scale with reality.



Supply and demand dictates pricing. With competition...$299! No compettion...$399+!

Your are spinning and twisting reality based on your own ignorance. You forgot the demand drives UP pricing. Look at oil. Look what happened to Toshiba when they had competition. The artificially drove prices down, and it cost them nearly $1 billion in losses. Look at what is happening with Plasma. The cost is being driven down by cutthroat sales practices, and now the major players are shifting the manufacture to lesser companies to offset the pushed down prices. There is no competition now, and you can still find players for $299. More bull.

And let's not go there about the needed updates! That alone was enough to slow down demand, PS3 not withstanding! [/quote]

Demand has not slowed down, it accelerated. Get your facts straight.


"Sir T", I'm not against blu ray. I want it to succeed. It is the superior technology. I, like others on this website recognize what's going on and things are bordering on critical!

This is the most ignorant gloom and doom FUD I have seen post format war. Things are not that critical. You and most of the folks here that are nothing more the doomers and gloomers do not have all the facts. You did not have all the facts when you predicted that Warner would switch to HD DVD only. If you look at the facts and figures, you will see how foolishly off your so called "recognition" really is. You have stated that pricing has slowed down sales. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this notion at all. It just what you THINK.



Blu ray will survive and eventually become the force we believe it is. Timing is everything and we are in bad times right now!

We are just one region. There are other regions around the world that are not in the economic condition we are. We do not make or break formats anymore. We are not the end all. Timing is not everything. There is no damn urgency that says that bluray has to succeed by tomorrow. It took years for VHS to establish itself, even after Beta exited the consumer market. It took years before DVD really took off. Why does it have to take bluray 2 minutes and 50 seconds or they are doomed? This is crap, and it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.


And don't take this as if I'm labeling you as "out of touch". The views you have expressed regarding the economic conditions and how it has or hasn't effected Bluray's market penatration, IMO, is in fact questionable, and at the least, debatable. Sometimes you sound like "Dubya!":lol:

You're still the man!
Peace!

Everyone has felt the economic pinch in different ways. The ultra rich do not feel it at all. Some folks feel it alot. I am much more in the middle on this. I look back at all the recessions we have had in my lifetime, and the scenarios you have set just do not materialize in the way you state it. This is not a depression, this in historical perspective is a mild recession. We are not seeing the layoff numbers we saw in 2002-03, we are not even close. We have not seen the stock market drop at the volume we saw in 2002-03. Our GDP number are not in the red like they were in 2002-03. The world is not in a recession like it was back in 2002-03. Things would have to get ALOT worse to be compared with 2002-03. How soon we forget. People can still find jobs, there were no jobs in 2002-03. You can still purchase a house, back then nobody had a job, so they couldn't purchase anything. What you are doing is crying wolf, and the wolf is not even close to the hen house yet. Thing are bad, but they are not quite as bad as the doom and gloom you are attempting to paint here. Some regions of this country are getting hit harder than others. While I do see food and gas going up(we pay some of the highest gas prices in the country only eclipsed by Hawaii), I do not see the volumes of people in the streets like I did in 2002-03. Here in the Bay Area we are not seeing thousands and thousand getting layed off in a single swipe like we did in 2002-03. People here are working, but their dollars are getting pulled thin by inflation.

If you think my perspective on bluray market penetration not being affected, find information that proves me wrong. Because I am looking at worldwide sales through NDP, and I don't see the same negatives you see and you do not even have the information I have. What is slowing market penetration here in the states is player availability, not price, and not bad economic times. Everywhere else bluray is doing gangbusters. When you balance this out on a worldwide basis(which is in context for this platform) it all balances to show format growth, not lack thereof You outlook is overly bleak because you are only looking at the states as a gage. Your world is too small to accurately gage market penetraition of a worldwide format. And you comments that the US is the gage of everything, is just plain arrogant and inaccurate. That is out of touch thinking!

[ldgibson76]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

Yo Rich!

I hope you were kidding with this inquiry. Do you realize whom your defending! This guy can deliver insults like "Don Rickles!" And has! And my little jabs are in question!?!

Now that I think about it, my little jabs at "Sir T" were harmless at best! If you consider "having a life" as cruel and unusual, then this forum must be of a kinder, gentler nature, effective earlier today! I didn't call him an idiot, or a liar, or moron, or stupid, or ghetto, redneck or any of the other "compliments" he's doled out in the past. And the fact that I do recognize and often mention his knowledge and admire his perspective and opinions about the industry, especially when we're having a debate, should be acknowledged!

Take care, and BTW, how's the 3800 treating you!?!

Regards

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

OK! You're right! My bad! I retract the "having a life" comment.

"Sir T", I apologize.

And your perspective is not "whacked!" "Unique" is more appropriate description.

Regards.

I do not think even unique is accurate. The folks that have access to the same information that I do, have the same conclusions I do. I would call myself informed and education in my field:D

I rather like my life.:yesnod:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Let's face it: if we stopped buying products from companies with unethical practices, we wouldn't be able to shop anymore. Sure, some companies pi$$ us off more than others, but there's not a clean pair of underwear covering the a$$ of any major corporation.

The old saying caveat emptor is as true today as ever, and anyone who doesn't go into the marketplace with a critical eye is easy prey for the unscrupulous seller. Typical consumers don't care about such things and can usually only handle one or two specific incidences of consumer self-righteousness at a time. I use the term "self-righteousness" because consumers are generally just as unethical as the companies they decry.

So yeah, I don't buy soccer balls from manufacturers who use child slave labor, or baby toys from companies that use lead paint, or beef from companies that abuse animals before they kill them so I can eat 'em (I want unabused dead cows), but Jeez, I do want nice soccer balls for a cheap price, and shiny toys for under a dollar, and I love a nice, big steak, so I gotta buy something!

In the CE space, I don't care who makes a product, sells it, controls it, or profits from it nearly as much as I care about getting the best I can for the least amount of money. Of course, it has to be something I really want, too. At least I can control buying stuff I don't really care about--some people can't even do that.

With BluRay, I'm still waiting for the "must-have" moment, and it's just not going to come from the video side. When (if) BluRay audio discs hit my sweet spot (best sound for the least amount of money), then I'll buy from whomever I want who has the most compelling product. And I'll still be getting most of my video and once-watched movies off iTunes or another service and not wasting money on once-watched BluRay discs.

OTOH, if one of my watch-it-once-a-month movies comes along in a must-have HD version, who knows? If I already have a player, I might bite.

Great post. My feeling exactly regarding corporations.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

A couple thoughts as I am getting caught up on today's additions;

Filecat and Sir T have a point that Sony isn't the only crooks behind a corporation but "because everyone else does it" don't justify Sony doing the same thing. We didn't accept that excuse from our kids and I sure ain't going to accept it from businessmen who should have some semblence of honor. Has Capitalism become to mean screw them before they screw me?

I do not think I was justifying anything. I was pointing out that Sony cannot be more evil than everyone else, when everyone else is doing the same thing. They are all evil, and there is no bigger great evil unless you are talkin Microsoft:biggrin5:


Pix, I have a newsflash for you, Sony is not immune to defective products. My Sony 975 DVD player had to go back because it went bad before my 30 day return was up. My Sony 30" Wega HDTV went bad just after the factory warranty went out, if I hadn't bought the extended warranty that TV would have been a boat anchor instead of the object of my kids abuse. Knock on wood, I have not had any issue with a Toshiba product. I also have had Sony products that gave me long years of service without fault. Every company is bound to get a bad batch of chips or a robot assembler who smoked Crack at lunch that will flub up a run of product. It's how the company deals with it that matters most.

And without defending Sony, I do not think they are any better or any worse than any other CE company when it comes to dealing with what matters most. Samsung right now is getting sued for their slow support of the BP-1200. They were just too cheap to react quickly enough for somebody. Toshiba is getting their a$$ kicked on how they are dealing with HD DVD now that they have abandoned it. At any given time and moment, some company is falling down with how they deal with customer service.


Also ldgibson hinted that DVD playback was important in a BR player, or was that further justification for buying a flipping BR machine, I vote the former as I take what I can get. In my mind there's 3 of us now. Sir T, my grassroots movement is growing, soon the BDA will have to listen.

I say go get'em Mr P!!!! The hordes wanted either bitstreaming or internal decoding of all the new formats. They got it. The hordes wanted 24fps playback, they got it. The hordes wanted more interactive extras via BD live(I do not know why), they got it. PS3 owners wanted Dts MA lossless decoding, they got it. They wanted upscaling of DVD's, they got it. If you and your homies want better DVD playback, you have to yell as loud as the hordes have.

[ldgibson76]

My name is Sir Talks alot mister :10:

Now that's the "Sir T" I know! Welcome back!

Scratch working for OPEC! Hillary and Barack needs you bad! Man you can "SPIN!"
Thanks for the insight and the informative and unique perspective. I consider it unique because not many people have the inside scoop or world knowledge of the BDA's marketing and manufacturing concepts and methods. But it's still not right to introduce an unfinished technology to the market. Both HD DVD and the BDA should have been called to the carpet a long time ago! Just an opinion!
By the way, I realize that you live in the Bay area. And things may be looking A-OK over there! But for you to say it's not as bad as I describe it, is insensitive at best! The rest of this country is struggling. The political climate confirms that. Foreclosures are happening at a ridiculous rate and the dollar is weak as hell. You can't tell me that the country's economic state isn't as bad as it seems! "Sir T", the only reason the why Wall St. is doing ok is because of the oil prices! The increase in oil prices creates a domino effect on other goods! I'm not going to go too deep into this subject, but, you really need to look beyond the Bay Area! The Dot-Com fall out along with 9/11 hit the Bay Area in a big way back in 2001 and 2.
Again, thanks for the insight.

Regards.

[hermanv]

When I worked for a number of large corporations, I too was privy to "inside information". Most companies provided an endless stream of great and positive data right up to the day the closed the business and fired everyone.

If I remember correctly Sony kept telling us how well SACD was being received, right up to the day they decided to stop support.

You could well be correct about BluRay, but almost as easily you could be wrong. Unless you get extra for being a Sony booster, perhaps some discretion regarding any corners into which you are painting yourself could be considered. We are just talking opinions here, unless you own a crystal ball facts can be subjected to different interpretations.

Anyway, I didn't know you lived in the Bay Area, does this mean I havta move?:smile5:

[Mr Peabody]

It's true that BR has a worldwide market but the U.S. is one of the richest countries in the world and you can't deny our impact. You make it sound like the CE companies are selling BR to everyone but us because we are small or insignificant. I don't believe that is the view of those wanting to make money and sell a product. Also, keep in mind that when the U.S. markets dropped due to this mortgage issue that it brought Europe, Japan and China right along with it. The U.S. has world impact. Besides, who cares if BR makes it in Europe, that would have no effect on me if BR don't make it in the U.S., the U.S. is where I live. They've had digital radio of some type in Europe for years, I still had analog FM, it wasn't by choice, it was lack of choice. Same with BR, if it's not here, we use something else. I also wonder what percentage of American film companies movies are sold in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world. I think 300 was the big movie everyone was comparing figures of BR to HD-DVD, so how many copies of 300 were sold in Europe or to China. Well I can answer part of that question, only one copy sold to China and from that one copy they pirated enough for everyone in the country. The point I was trying to make, I think, was I suspect American film companies have more at stake for BR to make it in the U.S. than in Europe or any other place off shore. Of course, I could be wrong, there sure are a lot of French subtitles under "set up".

I also heard that the reason Disney's business is up at the theme parks is foreigners coming over and taking advantage of the low value dollar. Actually, I wonder if the condition of the dollar has anything to do with low inventory of BDP. Let's face it, CE companies are on what, an average of 3rd gen players, if they don't have the manufacturing process down by now they might as well give up. I don't think it has anything to do with manufacturing that inventories of BDP's are down. When I come up with a better theory though I'll let you know.

[hermanv]

Ramp up time for an electronic product runs anywhere from 90 to 180 days. Under pressure when I worked for them, one Nokia DSL sub-assembly changed from about 20 a day to 1000 a day in 30 days. This assembly was similar in size to a BluRay player..

Much as I dislike outsourcing, Asians can be remarkably productive when stimulated by cash.

[pixelthis]

Will you stop it! No one's bashing you! I have nothing but respect for you! Just because we differ in opinion doesn't mean I don't like you man! :mad2: :D
You have interesting perspectives and it's very entertaining indulging in a little banter with you.
It's a real hoot when you go nuts on "Groundbeef" and "Pix".
Like I said, defend your industry with pride. State your opinion/viewpoint and then wave your victory flag:20:

Holla!


YOU'RE "bashing" him if you have the slightest disagreement, the sure sign of a massive fragile ego.
he let slip that he is an "installer" which means he probably got his start installing alarm
systems and branched into HT, if hes' like most "installers".
And its not "his" industry, indeed its leaving him behind, he'll be in his dark "mancave "
watching his antique CRT projection set the size of a moving van, muttering to himself about showing the world, while the rest of us have moved on :1:

[pixelthis]

A couple thoughts as I am getting caught up on today's additions;

Filecat and Sir T have a point that Sony isn't the only crooks behind a corporation but "because everyone else does it" don't justify Sony doing the same thing. We didn't accept that excuse from our kids and I sure ain't going to accept it from businessmen who should have some semblence of honor. Has Capitalism become to mean screw them before they screw me?

Pix, I have a newsflash for you, Sony is not immune to defective products. My Sony 975 DVD player had to go back because it went bad before my 30 day return was up. My Sony 30" Wega HDTV went bad just after the factory warranty went out, if I hadn't bought the extended warranty that TV would have been a boat anchor instead of the object of my kids abuse. Knock on wood, I have not had any issue with a Toshiba product. I also have had Sony products that gave me long years of service without fault. Every company is bound to get a bad batch of chips or a robot assembler who smoked Crack at lunch that will flub up a run of product. It's how the company deals with it that matters most.

Also ldgibson hinted that DVD playback was important in a BR player, or was that further justification for buying a flipping BR machine, I vote the former as I take what I can get. In my mind there's 3 of us now. Sir T, my grassroots movement is growing, soon the BDA will have to listen.


Sony had their problems sure, and still do, they are not perfect by a long shot.
I am a bit biased, I love the style and engineering of Sony products, at least in video.
And you are wasting your time on DVD playback , aint gonna happen.
To start off, "upconverting" is a crock, you cant increase the res of a picture without an expensive scaler, upconverting might smooth a pic out a little but you wont get increased res, aint no such thing as a free lunch.
And then theres the "gap" effect, your mind loved DVD as long as that was it, but it filled in the "gaps", after watching HD for awhile you just wont be able to get a pleasing pic outta DVD, the format just isnt capable.
In short, DVD is always going to come up short compared to your BLU or HDTV.
My SAMSUNG DVD (which I got for SACD and DVDA) is a great player,
but it cant hold a candle to the worst HD.
In other words, I THINK YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A CHIMERA,
and you're going to come up disapointed :1:

[Ajani]

Its a fallacy to believe that Bluray has to replace DVD tomorrow. The BDA is trying to build an sustainable and controlled infrastructure to support the next gen hi defintiion movie, audio and gaming platform for the next ten years, and beyond if nothing else replaces it after ten years or so. We are currently on 10 year cycles with video formats, with VHS lasting the longest. The bluray disc is still the best way to watch HD movies, soon to be the best way to listen to high resolution music it is going to appeal to audiophiles and videophiles alike, and soon everyone. There is no rush, downloads have more than 10 years before it is ready for primetime, there is plenty of time for bluray adoption

I think this is one of the major problems with all these discussions about DVD VS BluRay VS Downloads VS Whatever... The timeframe involved... 10 years is a long time... How many of us know what we'll be doing in 10 years??? In 3 - 4 years, new technology could emerge that will spank the @$$ of BluRay or downloads or PPV... Maybe it's a new hardware or more likely a new software format allowing HD quality movies to take up no more space than a typical MP3 file... a simple change like that could easily increase download adoption rates dramatically and shift the market away from BluRay/DVD...

So the point is that all this talk about what will or will not take off, become dominant and when is mostly speculation and in some cases just wishful thinking by die-hard fanboys of particular products and/or brands....

I think its best to buy/use a product that works for you now, not one that you are praying and hoping will catch on and thus justify your purchase later....

[kexodusc]

I think this is one of the major problems with all these discussions about DVD VS BluRay VS Downloads VS Whatever... The timeframe involved... 10 years is a long time... How many of us know what we'll be doing in 10 years??? In 3 - 4 years, new technology could emerge that will spank the @$$ of BluRay or downloads or PPV... Maybe it's a new hardware or more likely a new software format allowing HD quality movies to take up no more space than a typical MP3 file... a simple change like that could easily increase download adoption rates dramatically and shift the market away from BluRay/DVD...

So the point is that all this talk about what will or will not take off, become dominant and when is mostly speculation and in some cases just wishful thinking by die-hard fanboys of particular products and/or brands....

I think its best to buy/use a product that works for you now, not one that you are praying and hoping will catch on and thus justify your purchase later....

I think Sir T is right - everyone expects BluRay to take off now before the big, bad next-gen format comes and makes BluRay obsolete. That ain't gonna happen any time soon, and BR is under no pressure.

10 years isn't really that long at all in terms of media format time. To be fair, the likelihood of something emerging in the near future that is superior to BluRay by any meaningful stretch, and viable, is quit slim, and certainly won't come cheaply. And it won't hit the market overnight. Manufacturers will again be asked to assist in the promotion of the new format via hardware investments (which they'll be reluctant to do unless they're compensated heavily) and the Studios will again have to get on board with it. Quite the undertaking. If it were that easy, every time there's a slight improvement in technology, we'd see new formats. But we don't. We generally wait for a series of significant, bigger steps. So when something does emerge as the heir-apparent, BluRay will still have a few years to run uncontested as the top video format.

Right now there isn't even much incentive to develop such a format. How much better is PQ going to get? Sound quality? BluRay is already hitting the point of diminishing returns where some people don't notice much/enough improvement. A lot of BR technology has been around for longer than the last 4 years. Many suggest that DVD hit the market far too early and should have waited for hi-def capability. These things don't just pop up over night. While DVD was being developed, people were already thinking Hi Def. I'm sure there's a next-gen format already in the works, but the point is that DVD enjoyed 10+ years when hi-def was lurking on the horizon. When DVD came out, everyone had gone through casettes replacing vinyl, cd's replacing casettes, and DVD replacing VHS - nobody thought DVD was going to be around forever, but it was successful nonetheless. People aren't going to wait a decade for the hope of something even better. They'll consume now.

If we're close to hitting a wall in terms of product improvement, BluRay might even stick around longer than DVD as the dominant format. It might have more "upgradeability" or future proofing built in?

Most analysts I know suggest that BluRay is still in the very early stages of its life cycle and won't even pick up much steam until 2010. This means BluRay is on a much longer than 5-year plan.

Look how long the mp3 has endured as a viable media format, at least the mid-90's. I'm pretty sure it'll still be a standard 5 years from now. Odds of something springing up in the next few years to challenge BluRay are rather slim.

[Ajani]

I think Sir T is right - everyone expects BluRay to take off now before the big, bad next-gen format comes and makes BluRay obsolete. That ain't gonna happen any time soon, and BR is under no pressure.

10 years isn't really that long at all in terms of media format time. To be fair, the likelihood of something emerging in the near future that is superior to BluRay by any meaningful stretch, and viable, is quit slim, and certainly won't come cheaply. And it won't hit the market overnight. Manufacturers will again be asked to assist in the promotion of the new format via hardware investments (which they'll be reluctant to do unless they're compensated heavily) and the Studios will again have to get on board with it. Quite the undertaking. If it were that easy, every time there's a slight improvement in technology, we'd see new formats. But we don't. We generally wait for a series of significant, bigger steps. So when something does emerge as the heir-apparent, BluRay will still have a few years to run uncontested as the top video format.

Right now there isn't even much incentive to develop such a format. How much better is PQ going to get? Sound quality? BluRay is already hitting the point of diminishing returns where some people don't notice much/enough improvement. A lot of BR technology has been around for longer than the last 4 years. Many suggest that DVD hit the market far too early and should have waited for hi-def capability. These things don't just pop up over night. While DVD was being developed, people were already thinking Hi Def. I'm sure there's a next-gen format already in the works, but the point is that DVD enjoyed 10+ years when hi-def was lurking on the horizon. When DVD came out, everyone had gone through casettes replacing vinyl, cd's replacing casettes, and DVD replacing VHS - nobody thought DVD was going to be around forever, but it was successful nonetheless. People aren't going to wait a decade for the hope of something even better. They'll consume now.

If we're close to hitting a wall in terms of product improvement, BluRay might even stick around longer than DVD as the dominant format. It might have more "upgradeability" or future proofing built in?

Most analysts I know suggest that BluRay is still in the very early stages of its life cycle and won't even pick up much steam until 2010. This means BluRay is on a much longer than 5-year plan.

Look how long the mp3 has endured as a viable media format, at least the mid-90's. I'm pretty sure it'll still be a standard 5 years from now. Odds of something springing up in the next few years to challenge BluRay are rather slim.

My point is that having a long time in which to become dominant in the market (10 or more years) doesn't mean that BluRay will ever become dominant. It still needs to prove to the average consumer that it is worth the money to upgrade from their existing DVD player and collections...

I don't expect some new hardware (disc etc..) format to make BluRay obsolete anytime soon... there will always be better discs produced with more storage capacity... the issue is more likely software... and it's not that BluRay needs to rush to establish immediate market dominance, but it will need to establish it eventually or simply remain one of several movie watching options (which is also a real possibility).

I don't fall into either the BluRay will Die soon or BluRay is King fanclubs... I suspect that the format will fall somewhere in the middle and just be a popular alternative to DVDs, PPV, Downloading etc... but will probably never have the market dominance that DVD has/had.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

YOU'RE "bashing" him if you have the slightest disagreement, the sure sign of a massive fragile ego.

And your assessment of me is a sign that you STILL are just a stupid lonely old man sitting in a rocking chair with a beer in his hand, two teeth in his mouth, and still hunts raccoons for dinner:1:


he let slip that he is an "installer" which means he probably got his start installing alarm
systems and branched into HT, if hes' like most "installers".

I didn't let anything slip, I TOLD YOU straight out. I have never installed alarms, do you want to try again?


And its not "his" industry, indeed its leaving him behind, he'll be in his dark "mancave "
watching his antique CRT projection set the size of a moving van, muttering to himself about showing the world, while the rest of us have moved on :1:

How would you know this? You do not work in MY industry, you never have. You do not know anything about the film and video industry, so how would you know if I am actually ahead of the curve, or behind it?

You haven't moved anywhere. You still have a old 720p panel you use as a computer and television screen:1: Let me know when you really moved on old guy:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think this is one of the major problems with all these discussions about DVD VS BluRay VS Downloads VS Whatever... The timeframe involved... 10 years is a long time... How many of us know what we'll be doing in 10 years??? In 3 - 4 years, new technology could emerge that will spank the @$$ of BluRay or downloads or PPV... Maybe it's a new hardware or more likely a new software format allowing HD quality movies to take up no more space than a typical MP3 file... a simple change like that could easily increase download adoption rates dramatically and shift the market away from BluRay/DVD...

Do you really think that technology just rises up and gets the support it needs to survive magically? They have a new one now HD VMD that has been trying to get to market for the last year or so, it is not getting any traction because it does not appeal to content providers. This is the key Ajani, you have to impress the folks that will support the format. Bluray now has 100% support of Hollywood, 100% support from the European studio community, and 100% from manufacturers. Secondly you need to get off of this download affecting bluray crap. No analyst(except the bluray haters) has supported the notion that downloads will effect bluray in any way. Downloading has a ton of problem on its own, namely the cable companies and telecoms.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKN1639580720080117?rpc=44


So the point is that all this talk about what will or will not take off, become dominant and when is mostly speculation and in some cases just wishful thinking by die-hard fanboys of particular products and/or brands....

No this is not the point. When all of the pieces for dominence are coming together, it get's pretty plain to see that dominance is inevitible. The Studios want DVD to go away, Manufacturers want the DVD to go away, and retailers want DVD to go away. So to assume they cannot move this product into the forefront would sadly underestimate their marketing power. Nobody has to be a fanboy to see this.


I think its best to buy/use a product that works for you now, not one that you are praying and hoping will catch on and thus justify your purchase later....

This may be good advice for yourself, I am sure others have another plan. Bluray works for me NOW. It apparently is working NOW for millions of other folks as well.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ramp up time for an electronic product runs anywhere from 90 to 180 days. Under pressure when I worked for them, one Nokia DSL sub-assembly changed from about 20 a day to 1000 a day in 30 days. This assembly was similar in size to a BluRay player..

Much as I dislike outsourcing, Asians can be remarkably productive when stimulated by cash.

This comment applies to your specific situation. You have no idea what the ramp up period is for a bluray player, right? Something simular to size speaks nothing to the complexity of its internal workings. This is apples and pickles.

[kexodusc]

My point is that having a long time in which to become dominant in the market (10 or more years) doesn't mean that BluRay will ever become dominant. It still needs to prove to the average consumer that it is worth the money to upgrade from their existing DVD player and collections...

I don't expect some new hardware (disc etc..) format to make BluRay obsolete anytime soon... there will always be better discs produced with more storage capacity... the issue is more likely software... and it's not that BluRay needs to rush to establish immediate market dominance, but it will need to establish it eventually or simply remain one of several movie watching options (which is also a real possibility).

I don't fall into either the BluRay will Die soon or BluRay is King fanclubs... I suspect that the format will fall somewhere in the middle and just be a popular alternative to DVDs, PPV, Downloading etc... but will probably never have the market dominance that DVD has/had.
Ahh, I see. You're right, it might not ever become the dominant format. I don't think it ever has to.

I personally can see BluRay existing side by side with simultaneously with DVD and other formats and still being profitable. The days of a single monopolized media format are dead. Everyone thinks success is measured by all or none. BluRay could be profitable and successful with far less penetration and sales than DVD had. It can exist as a niche product for the HD folks and videophiles, audiophiles, and whatnot. I'm sure that's not the highest wishes for the product, but I hope people don't measure its success only by if it outsells DVD or dominates the market. If it does, great, if not, I'm sure the studios will be happy with a product that augments others in the name of higher margins.

[ldgibson76]

Ahh, I see. You're right, it might not ever become the dominant format. I don't think it ever has to.

I personally can see BluRay existing side by side with simultaneously with DVD and other formats and still being profitable. The days of a single monopolized media format are dead. Everyone thinks success is measured by all or none. BluRay could be profitable and successful with far less penetration and sales than DVD had. It can exist as a niche product for the HD folks and videophiles, audiophiles, and whatnot. I'm sure that's not the highest wishes for the product, but I hope people don't measure its success only by if it outsells DVD or dominates the market. If it does, great, if not, I'm sure the studios will be happy with a product that augments others in the name of higher margins.

Hello "kex"!

For the most part, I agree with your perspective. Yes, both formats could co-exist. They do now! But make no mistake, when the two hi-def formats were introduced the market, it was for keeps! For total domination! The next video format...the replacement for dvd! You've seen the commercials and read the advertisements. That's how the hi def mediums were promoted. The BDA would love nothing more than for the standard dvd to go the way of the VHS! "Sir T" is on point here! The investment in the marketing alone suggest that very mindset! Now, can the mission change?! Of course it can. Market conditions nationally and internationally will dictate blu ray's place in the home entertainment market.

Right now, the consideration of a co-exsistance with std DVD is the virtue because of the current economic crisis , (except for the Bay area). [For some reason, we have someone on this forum that is under the impression that the Bay Area is impervious to the economic downturn! Not feeling the crunch! Although other than Hawaii, has the highest gas prices in the country and the most foreclosures to date! And the highest energy prices! Not to mention, the highest cost of living in the whole country!:out:] Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic. Anyway, the bottom line is, if the BDA had it's way....it would be the only dvd medium standing! And now that there is 100% studio backing, and the majority of the manufacturers on board, then why not go for complete dominance!?!
I say again, if the market conditions in this country were better and the starting price for Blu ray players was $200.00, and the disc price was 19.99 for new releases, and the technology was complete! In other words, DVD vs. Blu ray, same price!?! This would all be academic....a no brainer! Blu ray would literally own the market, better yet, would be the market.
Just an opinion!

Regards.

[Ajani]

Do you really think that technology just rises up and gets the support it needs to survive magically? They have a new one now HD VMD that has been trying to get to market for the last year or so, it is not getting any traction because it does not appeal to content providers. This is the key Ajani, you have to impress the folks that will support the format. Bluray now has 100% support of Hollywood, 100% support from the European studio community, and 100% from manufacturers. Secondly you need to get off of this download affecting bluray crap. No analyst(except the bluray haters) has supported the notion that downloads will effect bluray in any way. Downloading has a ton of problem on its own, namely the cable companies and telecoms.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKN1639580720080117?rpc=44

The statement highlighted in bold is questionable at best. The fact is that some analysts expect downloads to have an impact and whether or not you believe they are BluRay haters, doesn't mean they are wrong.


No this is not the point. When all of the pieces for dominence are coming together, it get's pretty plain to see that dominance is inevitible. The Studios want DVD to go away, Manufacturers want the DVD to go away, and retailers want DVD to go away. So to assume they cannot move this product into the forefront would sadly underestimate their marketing power. Nobody has to be a fanboy to see this.

We'll just have to agree to disagree... I don't see BluRay becoming dominant as inevitable. Maybe in 5 or more years if sales start to really gain ground on DVD, then I'd be able to accept that view.


This may be good advice for yourself, I am sure others have another plan. Bluray works for me NOW. It apparently is working NOW for millions of other folks as well.

It's good advice for you too... You have over 200 BluRay titles (if I'm not mistaken) which shows that the format is clearly working for you now (as you stated)... So nothing wrong with buying BluRay if it works for you now, but buying just in the hope that it will become dominant isn't a great idea...

[Ajani]

Hello "kex"!

For the most part, I agree with your perspective. Yes, both formats could co-exist. They do now! But make no mistake, when the two hi-def formats were introduced the market, it was for keeps! For total domination! The next video format...the replacement for dvd! You've seen the commercials and read the advertisements. That's how the hi def mediums were promoted. The BDA would love nothing more than for the standard dvd to go the way of the VHS! "Sir T" is on point here! The investment in the marketing alone suggest that very mindset! Now, can the mission change?! Of course it can. Market conditions nationally and internationally will dictate blu ray's place in the home entertainment market.

Right now, the consideration of a co-exsistance with std DVD is the virtue because of the current economic crisis , (except for the Bay area). [For some reason, we have someone on this forum that is under the impression that the Bay Area is impervious to the economic downturn! Not feeling the crunch! Although other than Hawaii, has the highest gas prices in the country and the most foreclosures to date! And the highest energy prices! Not to mention, the highest cost of living in the whole country!:out:] Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic. Anyway, the bottom line is, if the BDA had it's way....it would be the only dvd medium standing! And now that there is 100% studio backing, and the majority of the manufacturers on board, then why not go for complete dominance!?!

Nothing wrong with the goal of complete dominance. The question is whether they can accomplish that goal.


I say again, if the market conditions in this country were better and the starting price for Blu ray players was $200.00, and the disc price was 19.99 for new releases, and the technology was complete! In other words, DVD vs. Blu ray, same price!?! This would all be academic....a no brainer! Blu ray would literally own the market, better yet, would be the market.
Just an opinion!

I agree with this view.... that is what the consumer wants, but I doubt the Studios and Electronics giants really want to give the consumer more for the same price... what's the benefit to them?

[Ajani]

Ahh, I see. You're right, it might not ever become the dominant format. I don't think it ever has to.

I personally can see BluRay existing side by side with simultaneously with DVD and other formats and still being profitable. The days of a single monopolized media format are dead. Everyone thinks success is measured by all or none. BluRay could be profitable and successful with far less penetration and sales than DVD had. It can exist as a niche product for the HD folks and videophiles, audiophiles, and whatnot. I'm sure that's not the highest wishes for the product, but I hope people don't measure its success only by if it outsells DVD or dominates the market. If it does, great, if not, I'm sure the studios will be happy with a product that augments others in the name of higher margins.

Yep, we see eye to eye on this point... BluRay does not need to be the Dominant force in the market to be sucessful... Just consider that even long 'dead' formats like Vinyl and SACD are still making money... In fact, I read an article on WhatHiFi this morning, in which Arcam's new cd players will all support SACD... So even though SACD will never be dominant it is clearly still making someone money....

[kexodusc]

I say again, if the market conditions in this country were better and the starting price for Blu ray players was $200.00, and the disc price was 19.99 for new releases, and the technology was complete! In other words, DVD vs. Blu ray, same price!?! This would all be academic....a no brainer! Blu ray would literally own the market, better yet, would be the market.
Just an opinion!

Regards.
I think this last paragraph of yours summarizes the difference in philosophy between many consumers eager for the BluRay revolution to reach its peak, and those companies backing the BluRay format.

The goal isn't to achieve massive market penetration, sell millions of players, or discs as fast as possible to achieve global dominance. The goal is to maximize profit over time.
This is not done by reducing margins to zero (or negative) to early in the game just to sell record numbers. Maximized sales does not always (and in fact rarely) leads to maximized profits. Would you rather lose 1 cent on each of a billion BluRay discs or make $1 of a thousand? BluRay will only concentrate on making enough hardware and software available to maximize profit over time. Part of this strategy is protecting a higher margin in BluRay to ensure costs (including internal rate of return) can be recovered. Sure they could sell more BluRays now - but if they're making less money selling 50 discs than they would be selling 1, there's no advantage to doing so.

Now, if the demand was all of a sudden so overwhelming that they had to start selling millions and millions of more players and discs, they would gladly take it, and probably afford price reductions due to economies of scale, new entrants, and so forth - but that's a demand volume driven price cut, not a supplier driven price cut. Very different animals.

Sure more people will buy BluRay players at $200. But they obviously can't build them cheap enough to make that venture worthwhile yet, so they're quite happy selling to those who are happy to pay $400 in the meantime.

Also recognize that many of the same companies have to carefully balance allowing DVD to bow out gracefully - it's still making money for some people. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised if the studios cut support of DVD to artificially boost demand for BluRay as a replacement, but we're not there yet.

[ldgibson76]

Well said "Kex"! Well said!
Speculation, the mother's milk of audio/video industry debate!

Regards.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Now that's the "Sir T" I know! Welcome back!

Scratch working for OPEC! Hillary and Barack needs you bad! Man you can "SPIN!"
Thanks for the insight and the informative and unique perspective. I consider it unique because not many people have the inside scoop or world knowledge of the BDA's marketing and manufacturing concepts and methods. But it's still not right to introduce an unfinished technology to the market. Both HD DVD and the BDA should have been called to the carpet a long time ago! Just an opinion!

For those who tend to think I just give the BDA a pass on everything, I have news for you, I agree with this. Neither Toshiba nor the BDA should have released either product when they did. It was a complete diservice to the consumer just for greed. However, I do like balance. The PS3 came to the market fully developed, and fully ready for full profile 2.0 bonus view. It is an extremely well engineered bluray player, and I know of very few folks that have had any problems with it. If the BDA had allowed this multimedia machine to be the first to be released, this format war would not have lasted nearly as long. It was a HUGE mistake to let the Samsung BDP-1000 on the market first. A HUGE MISTAKE.

Toshiba HD DVD player offerings IMO were a disaster from the first gen products to the last. The only player they released that was worth a dime was the XA-2, and they managed to ruin that player when they provided the firmware upgrade that brought 24fps. It went from the best HD DVD player, to one that had various quirks just like the others. Toshiba marketing on their players sucked, as did customer service, quality control, and the piss poor idea that they could subsidize their players to gain market share. No manufacturer wanted to join Toshiba, and Toshiba burned their bridges with other manufacturers really early in the format, and then threw Onkyo under the bus later in the game.



By the way, I realize that you live in the Bay area. And things may be looking A-OK over there! But for you to say it's not as bad as I describe it, is insensitive at best!

So your perspective of how bad things are is the only perspective allowed? That's pretty arrogant of you! Different regions and different people have been effected by this in different ways. The financial sector is getting hit hard, the entertainment industry quite frankly is not. People are withering under the cost of gas, but traders of oil futures are making HUGE bucks, and those they are investing for are as well(and yes, that would include me)


The rest of this country is struggling. The political climate confirms that. Foreclosures are happening at a ridiculous rate and the dollar is weak as hell. You can't tell me that the country's economic state isn't as bad as it seems!

Our GNP grew at a .06 rate in the first quarter. That is anemic, but not recessionary. Oil and food are the only areas that inflation is a problem. Foreclosure are happening because of both the financial sectors greed, as well as the consumers greed. That is one problem we have brought on ourselves no matter how bad it appears. When you turn a home into nothing more than investment property, you are looking for trouble. When you give loans to people you know cannot afford them, you are asking for trouble. Now that the chickens have come home to roost, you cannot say, "oh I am hurting". Sorry, but job losses are not as high as 2002-03, our GNP is not in the red like it was in 2002-03, and the unemployment rate is not even close to 2002-03. Things are bad in some areas, but the world was bad in 2002-03. When you look at the big picture, things are not nearly as bad as you are making it.



"Sir T", the only reason the why Wall St. is doing ok is because of the oil prices! The increase in oil prices creates a domino effect on other goods! I'm not going to go too deep into this subject, but, you really need to look beyond the Bay Area! The Dot-Com fall out along with 9/11 hit the Bay Area in a big way back in 2001 and 2.
Again, thanks for the insight.

Regards.

Actually, I have not been in the bay area all that much lately. So its really quite easy to look beyond the bay area. I have been to Seattle, its pretty much in the same shape as the bay area. I have been to New York, they do not seem to feel a whole lot of pain there. I have been to Orlando, they are in trouble because of foreclosures, but business are doing pretty well, especially those around Disney World which is doing exceptionally well. Hawaii is in trouble, real trouble, but not from foreclosures. Its from the price of airplane tickets, and a huge lack of ways to get there efficiently. They are a tourist economy, and have done nothing to diversify like San Francisco, New York City, and Seattle have done. How bad things are really depends on where you live. San Francisco has some of the highest gas and food prices in the country(second to Hawaii), but there is also a $hit load of money here. Same with New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago(places I have been in the last few months). In 2000-03 the entire world was in recession, things were really bad, much worse than today. IMO what we are experiencing OVERALL is nothing more than a slowdown, not a recession.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The statement highlighted in bold is questionable at best. The fact is that some analysts expect downloads to have an impact and whether or not you believe they are BluRay haters, doesn't mean they are wrong.

You are full of it man. Every reputible analyst(not ones with an agenda) who(and I bold this) know the industry well, and have a history with it has resounding agreed that the infrastructure to support mass downloading is not there. Everyone has agreed that a profit making business plan is not there. This is further buttressed by the fact that we all know(based on what we see in NDP reports) that NOBODY is making a dime selling movies as a digital file. NOBODY. Amazon, Itunes, and XBOXlive are all losing money in this area. Amazon is not making any money renting movies or television shows. That is why they are almost giving away their service. Itunes is locked into apple devices, but they are making money renting movies. XBOXlive is locked into the XBOX, but they are not making any money as well. All three of these guys are at the mercy of both the telecoms and cable companies, because it there pipeline their data has to pass through. I have had asked numorous times. Do you think the telecom's and cable companies are going to allow their pipelines to be clogged with their competitor data? I do not think so. Comcast already has a traffic managing system that makes Comcast services have priority over all others. Warner is already instituting a usage fee for heavy downloaders. These are facts when put together, does not bode well for downloading in the near term. What is worse is the bluray business in just two years has surpassed the overall revenue of all of downloading and VOD for the last five years.



We'll just have to agree to disagree... I don't see BluRay becoming dominant as inevitable. Maybe in 5 or more years if sales start to really gain ground on DVD, then I'd be able to accept that view.

Lets be frank, I do not really care whether you accept that view or not. Its not going to change a thing if you don't. However there are two things one can already look at that shows things are already shifting. 3:10 to Yuma has performed very well for Lionsgate. The eye opening thing about this title is the percentage of bluray disc sales to DVD. Out of all disc sales(DVD and Bluray combined) bluray disc sales made up 20% of ALL disc sales of this title. For all studios that have released titles on both formats(DVD and Bluray), they are seeing the percentages of bluray vs DVD all rise pretty sharply. I think NDP reported that most titles released on bluray and DVD since the beginning of the year, bluray has broken above 10% accross the board. In 2007 those percentages were 2-4% at best, and only on the largest titles.

The second point goes to first quarter results. DVD sales have dropped 6% so far this year for the studios(Disney is the only standout with steady disc sales). When you combine in bluray sales to that percentage, disc sales are up 4%. The very things that the studios are looking for in terms of bluray keeping overall disc sales up has already been realized. As sales of certain DVD titles have dropped, bluray sales of the same title have kept the their sales up. These two things are already pointing to a shift in which format people are choosing.


It's good advice for you too... You have over 200 BluRay titles (if I'm not mistaken) which shows that the format is clearly working for you now (as you stated)... So nothing wrong with buying BluRay if it works for you now, but buying just in the hope that it will become dominant isn't a great idea...

What kind of thought process is this? Nobody buys into a format just because they want it to succeed. They buy into it because it does something for them! I bought 350+ bluray titles because they looked and sounded better on my system than the DVD they replaced.(that goes for the DVD titles I have replaced with bluray's). I bought 175 HD DVD for that same reason. If I bought HD DVD because I wanted the format to succeed, I sure lost out didn't I?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think this last paragraph of yours summarizes the difference in philosophy between many consumers eager for the BluRay revolution to reach its peak, and those companies backing the BluRay format.

The goal isn't to achieve massive market penetration, sell millions of players, or discs as fast as possible to achieve global dominance. The goal is to maximize profit over time.
This is not done by reducing margins to zero (or negative) to early in the game just to sell record numbers. Maximized sales does not always (and in fact rarely) leads to maximized profits. Would you rather lose 1 cent on each of a billion BluRay discs or make $1 of a thousand? BluRay will only concentrate on making enough hardware and software available to maximize profit over time. Part of this strategy is protecting a higher margin in BluRay to ensure costs (including internal rate of return) can be recovered. Sure they could sell more BluRays now - but if they're making less money selling 50 discs than they would be selling 1, there's no advantage to doing so.

Now, if the demand was all of a sudden so overwhelming that they had to start selling millions and millions of more players and discs, they would gladly take it, and probably afford price reductions due to economies of scale, new entrants, and so forth - but that's a demand volume driven price cut, not a supplier driven price cut. Very different animals.

Sure more people will buy BluRay players at $200. But they obviously can't build them cheap enough to make that venture worthwhile yet, so they're quite happy selling to those who are happy to pay $400 in the meantime.

Also recognize that many of the same companies have to carefully balance allowing DVD to bow out gracefully - it's still making money for some people. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised if the studios cut support of DVD to artificially boost demand for BluRay as a replacement, but we're not there yet.

This is an excellent post Kex. :thumbsup:

[Ajani]

You are full of it man. Every reputible analyst(not ones with an agenda) who(and I bold this) know the industry well, and have a history with it has resounding agreed that the infrastructure to support mass downloading is not there. Everyone has agreed that a profit making business plan is not there. This is further buttressed by the fact that we all know(based on what we see in NDP reports) that NOBODY is making a dime selling movies as a digital file. NOBODY. Amazon, Itunes, and XBOXlive are all losing money in this area. Amazon is not making any money renting movies or television shows. That is why they are almost giving away their service. Itunes is locked into apple devices, but they are making money renting movies. XBOXlive is locked into the XBOX, but they are not making any money as well. All three of these guys are at the mercy of both the telecoms and cable companies, because it there pipeline their data has to pass through. I have had asked numorous times. Do you think the telecom's and cable companies are going to allow their pipelines to be clogged with their competitor data? I do not think so. Comcast already has a traffic managing system that makes Comcast services have priority over all others. Warner is already instituting a usage fee for heavy downloaders. These are facts when put together, does not bode well for downloading in the near term. What is worse is the bluray business in just two years has surpassed the overall revenue of all of downloading and VOD for the last five years.

So I'm full of it because I question your claim that the only analysts who see downloads affecting BluRay Sales are BluRay haters??? I suspect most reasonable persons see why I have trouble accepting that claim from you.



Lets be frank, I do not really care whether you accept that view or not. Its not going to change a thing if you don't. However there are two things one can already look at that shows things are already shifting. 3:10 to Yuma has performed very well for Lionsgate. The eye opening thing about this title is the percentage of bluray disc sales to DVD. Out of all disc sales(DVD and Bluray combined) bluray disc sales made up 20% of ALL disc sales of this title. For all studios that have released titles on both formats(DVD and Bluray), they are seeing the percentages of bluray vs DVD all rise pretty sharply. I think NDP reported that most titles released on bluray and DVD since the beginning of the year, bluray has broken above 10% accross the board. In 2007 those percentages were 2-4% at best, and only on the largest titles.

The second point goes to first quarter results. DVD sales have dropped 6% so far this year for the studios(Disney is the only standout with steady disc sales). When you combine in bluray sales to that percentage, disc sales are up 4%. The very things that the studios are looking for in terms of bluray keeping overall disc sales up has already been realized. As sales of certain DVD titles have dropped, bluray sales of the same title have kept the their sales up. These two things are already pointing to a shift in which format people are choosing.

That's nice, nor do I care if you believe that BluRay must become dominant. I just stated my opinion and unlike some members here, I don't take it personally or become offended when members disagree with me. I like a discussion.



What kind of thought process is this? Nobody buys into a format just because they want it to succeed. They buy into it because it does something for them! I bought 350+ bluray titles because they looked and sounded better on my system than the DVD they replaced.(that goes for the DVD titles I have replaced with bluray's). I bought 175 HD DVD for that same reason. If I bought HD DVD because I wanted the format to succeed, I sure lost out didn't I?

I have no idea what you're saying with that last point, so I can't comment. Anyway, as I said earlier: let's agree to disagree... I think you have interesting points and a lot of useful industry information, but I don't share your views on the video market.

[O'Shag]

Well I can answer part of that question, only one copy sold to China and from that one copy they pirated enough for everyone in the country[/B] .

There is a grain of truth in what you say Mr. P

[O'Shag]

Let's face it: if we stopped buying products from companies with unethical practices, we wouldn't be able to shop anymore. Sure, some companies pi$$ us off more than others, but there's not a clean pair of underwear covering the a$$ of any major corporation.

The old saying caveat emptor is as true today as ever, and anyone who doesn't go into the marketplace with a critical eye is easy prey for the unscrupulous seller. Typical consumers don't care about such things and can usually only handle one or two specific incidences of consumer self-righteousness at a time. I use the term "self-righteousness" because consumers are generally just as unethical as the companies they decry.

So yeah, I don't buy soccer balls from manufacturers who use child slave labor, or baby toys from companies that use lead paint, or beef from companies that abuse animals before they kill them so I can eat 'em (I want unabused dead cows), but Jeez, I do want nice soccer balls for a cheap price, and shiny toys for under a dollar, and I love a nice, big steak, so I gotta buy something!

In the CE space, I don't care who makes a product, sells it, controls it, or profits from it nearly as much as I care about getting the best I can for the least amount of money. Of course, it has to be something I really want, too. At least I can control buying stuff I don't really care about--some people can't even do that.

With BluRay, I'm still waiting for the "must-have" moment, and it's just not going to come from the video side. When (if) BluRay audio discs hit my sweet spot (best sound for the least amount of money), then I'll buy from whomever I want who has the most compelling product. And I'll still be getting most of my video and once-watched movies off iTunes or another service and not wasting money on once-watched BluRay discs.

OTOH, if one of my watch-it-once-a-month movies comes along in a must-have HD version, who knows? If I already have a player, I might bite.

To some extent I would have to disagree with this statement. There are many people who do care about the ethics behind the product they are buying.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It's true that BR has a worldwide market but the U.S. is one of the richest countries in the world and you can't deny our impact. You make it sound like the CE companies are selling BR to everyone but us because we are small or insignificant.

That is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that America is now one of three regions in the world stage. It no longer is the most important, the end all, it is now part of a larger share.


I don't believe that is the view of those wanting to make money and sell a product. Also, keep in mind that when the U.S. markets dropped due to this mortgage issue that it brought Europe, Japan and China right along with it.

Yes it did, but no at nearly the level it has hurt this country. Europe, Japan and China economies are alot healthier than our right now. They were exposed in this mortgage crisis, they were not killed by it. China GDP is on fire right now, Japan is doing well also, and the European Union is also doing well. We have to face it, we are no longer the $hit on the world stage. We now have to share the spotlight with China and the European Union. If China stops supporting our debt, America is in very deep $hit, and with a quickness!!


The U.S. has world impact. Besides, who cares if BR makes it in Europe, that would have no effect on me if BR don't make it in the U.S., the U.S. is where I live. They've had digital radio of some type in Europe for years, I still had analog FM, it wasn't by choice, it was lack of choice. Same with BR, if it's not here, we use something else. I also wonder what percentage of American film companies movies are sold in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world.

Yes the US has world impact, but not like we used to. The funny thing is many Americans are having a hard time swallowing this fact. Most multinationals are looking at China right now. Even the BDA has its eye on it.

As far as American movies sold here versus abroad. Here Hollywood owns 97% of the market, and the rest is split between Bollywood and Chinese animation and movies. Abroad Hollywood movies are 65% of the market in terms of revenue.

If Bluray does not succeed here, then we will have DVD, and the rest of the world would have moved on to bluray. I cannot see the BDA just giving up on the format just because it does not succeed here. As I have stated earlier, the European Union is going to overtake the US in bluray disc sales by the end of this year. They are buying PS3's at a faster rate than we are, even though we have more of them in this market currently. They may overtake us here as well. Since the beginning of the year, they have sold more standalone players in the European Union than here. This is why we are seeing shortages here, the demand elsewhere is just as explosive as it is here.



I think 300 was the big movie everyone was comparing figures of BR to HD-DVD, so how many copies of 300 were sold in Europe or to China. Well I can answer part of that question, only one copy sold to China and from that one copy they pirated enough for everyone in the country.

Your last response must be a joke! 300 is no longer the major seller. 3:10 to Yuma passed it two weeks after it hit the market. 300 is no longer the benchmark to make a point, too much has changed since its release.


The point I was trying to make, I think, was I suspect American film companies have more at stake for BR to make it in the U.S. than in Europe or any other place off shore. Of course, I could be wrong, there sure are a lot of French subtitles under "set up".

This is a very old way of thinking. As I have said, the US is no longer the $hit. BR can do average here and still be a huge hit on the world market. We are no longer the benchmark for success. Its a world wide thing now, and the US is just another piece of the picture. I think it is very telling that Sony's downloading service for the PS3 will get its start in Europe and not here.


I also heard that the reason Disney's business is up at the theme parks is foreigners coming over and taking advantage of the low value dollar. Actually, I wonder if the condition of the dollar has anything to do with low inventory of BDP.

Disney business is up due to both domestic AND foreign visitation. For most foreigners, it is still hard as hell to get a visa to get in this country. Ask the Chinese. They are visiting Europe in huge numbers, and cannot get here. This is part of the reason Europe is doing so well.

The low inventories is due to greater demand elsewhere. If Europe was not so bluray hot, we would probably have more players to sell here. I read where Maxpower from bluray.com(he is the financial insider for the BDA) said that last year we had more players shipped here than in europe. This year demand from Europe has kind of evened out shipments for both territories. If things were like last year, we probably wouldn't have a player shortage here at all.


Let's face it, CE companies are on what, an average of 3rd gen players, if they don't have the manufacturing process down by now they might as well give up. I don't think it has anything to do with manufacturing that inventories of BDP's are down. When I come up with a better theory though I'll let you know.

You are being short sighted here. The first generation players only require basic playback. So they didn't require the chipset for PIP or decoding of the advance codecs. Alot of second generation products fell into that same catagory, just basic playback, but with less glitches. The third generation REQUIRES PIP(another chipset solution), adds decoding or bitstreaming of the advance codec(another chipset solution), and most are coming out either Bonus view, or Bonus view ready(another chipset solution). Each addition changes quite a few parimeters, adds complexity to the design, requires the manufacture of additional chipsets which also have to be programmed for different brands. They were ready for profile 1.0, and there are plenty of 1.0 profile players out there. We are now seeing nothing but 1.1 profile players being released(this is required) which is pretty easy to adjust from 1.0, but profile 2.0 has a complexity that far greater than the previous two. The demand for 1.0 profile players is waning. The demand for profile 1.1 players is REALLY increasing. The demand for 2.0 profile is totally pent up, as these are just coming to market, and are being sold out before they can get to the store.

I am sure you will come up with the most negative and damning theory on player inventory. And probably the most wrong as well.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So I'm full of it because I question your claim that the only analysts who see downloads affecting BluRay Sales are BluRay haters??? I suspect most reasonable persons see why I have trouble accepting that claim from you.

I do not care really. You can plant your a$$ on a hot stove, and I will go on eating dinner. You seem hell bent(even without a speck of evidence) to believe that downloads will effect bluray sales or adoption, and the folks that know the business well(you obviously don't) say its not going to happen. Folks that download are mostly renters. Renters buy very few disc. Collectors are not major downloaders, do not trust their movies as digital files, and prefer the QUALITY of true 24fps/1080p with lossless audio. They are not going to be satisfied with lossy 5.1, low bitrate heavilty filter video, smeared details or lack of it, heavily compressed sound, edge enhancement galore, and microblocking. The collectors are what propelled the DVD, not renters, and not casual disc buyers. The collectors are who drive the video formats. If downloading is going to catch the attention of these folks, it has one hell of a long way to do it. Your pro downloading perspective is not shared by alot of folks



That's nice, nor do I care if you believe that BluRay must become dominant. I just stated my opinion and unlike some members here, I don't take it personally or become offended when members disagree with me. I like a discussion.

I do not believe I said that Bluray MUST become anything. I said it will eventually replace DVD, and I believe that it will. If I took anything personally on this board, I wouldn't have been here for over 10 years. We all like discussion or we wouldn't be here, there is nothing unique in your statement here.


I have no idea what you're saying with that last point, so I can't comment. Anyway, as I said earlier: let's agree to disagree... I think you have interesting points and a lot of useful industry information, but I don't share your views on the video market.

A pro-downloader has very little in common with the video collector and enthusiast. So its not a wonder that you do not agree with me. Actually you could have save this post, its is VERY apparently we have never agreed on this issue, so there is no need to AGREE to DISAGREE.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

To some extent I would have to disagree with this statement. There are many people who do care about the ethics behind the product they are buying.

If you were correct, then we probably would not have Microsoft Windows in 95% of the world computers. There are alternatives now.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for your vote of confidence there Sir T.

I think you touched on this earlier but if all of those features you listed need a separate chip, then how did the PS3 receive all of it with just a simple firmware update? I can't see why each feature would need a separate chip set. If so, go ahead and put one in for SD upsampling, strike that, I get off track easily. I can maybe buy the production of current models being haulted in order to update and ship the new version but I can't accept these mega corporations not being able to flood the market with a product at the drop of a hat if they wanted.

You know if you stroked me like you do Kex we'd have to get engaged.

[filecat13]

To some extent I would have to disagree with this statement. There are many people who do care about the ethics behind the product they are buying.

This is no doubt true for some people, yet I'd contend that all but the most ardent compromise their ethical purity on a daily basis. People want to believe that if they take a stand on a few key issues, then they've done their part, when in fact their claims of purity in one or a few areas is made a mockery by their lack of ethical inquiry in others.

I guess if I got my life to the point where I was making the correct decisions and purchasing predominantly on the business practices of all manufacturers and sellers, I could set myself up as a better example. :thumbsup: But I'm not, and neither is anyone I know.

One guy for example was all about organic food practices and free range animals. I guess he didn't notice the nonbiodegradable expanded styrofoam and plastic wrap that he constantly threw into the trash to go to the landfill or the huge wads of natural, unbleached paper towels he tossed into the trash. He also didn't mind the plastic bottles his disinfectant came in, nor did he care that he washed toxic chemicals down the drain when he rinsed his paper towels out before throwing them away. That chicken grease that he so carefully skimmed off went down the drain, too, and of course his water usage was off the chart with the constant washing and rewashing of every bit of food.

While he objected to the wasteful, plastic packaging that covered his CD jewel cases, he was unaware that his daily disposal of plastic from his food habits was many times more wasteful.

We're all guilty.;)

[pixelthis]

And your assessment of me is a sign that you STILL are just a stupid lonely old man sitting in a rocking chair with a beer in his hand, two teeth in his mouth, and still hunts raccoons for dinner:1:



[QUOTE]I didn't let anything slip, I TOLD YOU straight out. I have never installed alarms, do you want to try again?

I guess you couldnt find any alarms from the fifties



How would you know this? You do not work in MY industry, you never have. You do not know anything about the film and video industry, so how would you know if I am actually ahead of the curve, or behind it?

You're joking, right? You use stuff they dont even MAKE anymore.
Can't get more "behind" the curve than that



You haven't moved anywhere. You still have a old 720p panel you use as a computer and television screen:1: Let me know when you really moved on old guy:1:

Which is way more advanced than your rubbish :1:

[pixelthis]

Yep, we see eye to eye on this point... BluRay does not need to be the Dominant force in the market to be sucessful... Just consider that even long 'dead' formats like Vinyl and SACD are still making money... In fact, I read an article on WhatHiFi this morning, in which Arcam's new cd players will all support SACD... So even though SACD will never be dominant it is clearly still making someone money....


I dont understand why some think that SACD is "dead", since you think so could you please explain it to me?
Marantz makes a SACD player for 799$, a lot of DVD players have SACD.
A lot say that Sony "dropped " the format, yet they archived their entire libary with SACD,
thats a pretty odd way of "dropping" something!
Go to amazon and you can see dozens of sacd discs.
For a dead format this one is certainly lively (thank god) :1:

[pixelthis]

Now that's the "Sir T" I know! Welcome back!

Scratch working for OPEC! Hillary and Barack needs you bad! Man you can "SPIN!"
Thanks for the insight and the informative and unique perspective. I consider it unique because not many people have the inside scoop or world knowledge of the BDA's marketing and manufacturing concepts and methods. But it's still not right to introduce an unfinished technology to the market. Both HD DVD and the BDA should have been called to the carpet a long time ago! Just an opinion!
By the way, I realize that you live in the Bay area. And things may be looking A-OK over there! But for you to say it's not as bad as I describe it, is insensitive at best! The rest of this country is struggling. The political climate confirms that. Foreclosures are happening at a ridiculous rate and the dollar is weak as hell. You can't tell me that the country's economic state isn't as bad as it seems! "Sir T", the only reason the why Wall St. is doing ok is because of the oil prices! The increase in oil prices creates a domino effect on other goods! I'm not going to go too deep into this subject, but, you really need to look beyond the Bay Area! The Dot-Com fall out along with 9/11 hit the Bay Area in a big way back in 2001 and 2.
Again, thanks for the insight.

Regards.


look beyond the bay area? He needs to look beyond his LIVING ROOM.
according to him, he has a setup that involves a a CRT front projector with 9in tubes,
most of it custom made, this to him is "average", hes actually said that this kind of setup is not uncommon.
This is how far outta touch with reality he is.
HE doesnt stoop to mingling with the great unwashed, he doesnt understand the popularity of LCD, why some would want a glare fre picture you can actually see
in a room with average lighting, not some monstrosity the size of a chifforobe that puts
out such a dim picture that you cant see it in a lit room.
Hes outta touch with what everybodies buying, why should he be IN TOUCH
with the state of economic affairs?
This is the type that companies pay for advice, yes men who will tell them how smart they are, this is why companies make such stupid decisions.
If the suits at Sony actually understood just how bad it is out in the hinterland they would be horrified.
They are making decisions based on a healthy economy.
They dont understand that they can sell 400 dollar toys all day long if they want, doesnt mean that anybody will buy the things.
the auto industry is having a similar problem, trying to sell 20,000 cars to people who are BROKE. :1:

[Ajani]

I dont understand why some think that SACD is "dead", since you think so could you please explain it to me?
Marantz makes a SACD player for 799$, a lot of DVD players have SACD.
A lot say that Sony "dropped " the format, yet they archived their entire libary with SACD,
thats a pretty odd way of "dropping" something!
Go to amazon and you can see dozens of sacd discs.
For a dead format this one is certainly lively (thank god) :1:

Note my use of quotation marks around 'dead'.... it was meant to be a touch of sarcasm... If the format was really dead then it wouldn't be selling at all and no one would be creating new players (such as Arcam, which I mentioned) or releasing all those classical albums on SACD....

All that happened is that SACD became a niche product rather than the mainstream successor to CD that it was originally marketed as....

The point was that even if BluRay eventually went that route, it could still be successful.

[Feanor]

I think this last paragraph of yours summarizes the difference in philosophy between many consumers eager for the BluRay revolution to reach its peak, and those companies backing the BluRay format.

The goal isn't to achieve massive market penetration, sell millions of players, or discs as fast as possible to achieve global dominance. The goal is to maximize profit over time.
This is not done by reducing margins to zero (or negative) to early in the game just to sell record numbers. Maximized sales does not always (and in fact rarely) leads to maximized profits. Would you rather lose 1 cent on each of a billion BluRay discs or make $1 of a thousand? BluRay will only concentrate on making enough hardware and software available to maximize profit over time. Part of this strategy is protecting a higher margin in BluRay to ensure costs (including internal rate of return) can be recovered. Sure they could sell more BluRays now - but if they're making less money selling 50 discs than they would be selling 1, there's no advantage to doing so.

Now, if the demand was all of a sudden so overwhelming that they had to start selling millions and millions of more players and discs, they would gladly take it, and probably afford price reductions due to economies of scale, new entrants, and so forth - but that's a demand volume driven price cut, not a supplier driven price cut. Very different animals.

Sure more people will buy BluRay players at $200. But they obviously can't build them cheap enough to make that venture worthwhile yet, so they're quite happy selling to those who are happy to pay $400 in the meantime.

Also recognize that many of the same companies have to carefully balance allowing DVD to bow out gracefully - it's still making money for some people. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised if the studios cut support of DVD to artificially boost demand for BluRay as a replacement, but we're not there yet.

Maybe BluRay will replace DVD sooner or maybe later or not at all.

I've said it several time but will say it again. Companies that introduce new products are often aiming to stratify the market, (i.e. find a pretext to charge the wealthier or keener people more, while still hanging on to low-end customers). A product that doesn't "dominate" the market isn't necessarily a failure. One can't always know what originating company has in mind, and indeed, they might shift strategies depending on competion and other factors.

SACD is a case in point, (not to say the BluRay situation is identical). Nothing about Sony's original marketing suggests to me that they expected SACD to be a "dominant" technology. For example, original software was non-hybrid, and (of course) original hardware was very expensive. Personally I think SACD was envisioned as a market stratification product -- or a "niche" product if you prefer. To say that SACD is a "failure" or "dead" because it hasn't become the dominant technology is not only an overstatement but perhaps a misjudgement of the original intent when it was introduced introduction.

Maybe Sony's intent for BluRay was/is dominance, or possibly not. But regardless, manufactures and software distributors might be content to stretch out the interval during which BluRay products come with significantly higher price tags vs. DVD.

[ldgibson76]

Maybe BluRay will replace DVD sooner or maybe later or not at all.

I've said it several time but will say it again. Companies that introduce new products are often aiming to stratify the market, (i.e. find a pretext to charge the wealthier or keener people more, while still hanging on to low-end customers). A product that doesn't "dominate" the market isn't necessarily a failure. One can't always know what originating company has in mind, and indeed, they might shift strategies depending on competion and other factors.

SACD is a case in point, (not to say the BluRay situation is identical). Nothing about Sony's original marketing suggests to me that they expected SACD to be a "dominant" technology. For example, original software was non-hybrid, and (of course) original hardware was very expensive. Personally I think SACD was envisioned as a market stratification product -- or a "niche" product if you prefer. To say that SACD is a "failure" or "dead" because it hasn't become the dominant technology is not only an overstatement but perhaps a misjudgement of the original intent when it was introduced introduction.

Maybe Sony's intent for BluRay was/is dominance, or possibly not. But regardless, manufactures and software distributors might be content to stretch out the interval during which BluRay products come with significantly higher price tags vs. DVD.

Hello Feanor.

Your point holds water, but let's be real....Sony's initial objective with SACD was not even in the same ballpark as Blu ray. I mean completely on the other side of the spectrum! When Sony introduced SACD, if you were not familiar with the audio industry, or wasn't an avid music fan (audio enthusiast), if you will, or didn't read AV mags,....the average person knew nothing about the SACD or DVD-A. Never heard of it or if they had heard of if, didn't understand or care to understand. I do believe that Sony's initial intent was to introduce the new medium as an alternative and if it caught on to the mainstream, that was a bonus.
Then maybe, the initial success would lend to the possibility of replacing the CD. But if it didn't, you still had the audio enthusiast market, so the format would survive and co-exsist with the CD! If you go into a Best Buy or a Circuit City and ask the average employee if there are any SACD's or DVD-A'a available, (Oh, by the way, did you know there was a format war between DVD-A and SACD?!:idea: :biggrin5: Of course you did, you're an audio enthusiast! Ask the average Joe about it and see what you get!!) there's a great chance that they wouldn't have a clue of what you were talking about. Granted, those retailers now primarily sell the hi-res formats online. As a matter of fact, that's pretty much the only place you will find SACD's (online). If Sony's mission was indeed to replace the CD, the marketing would have been "Epic/Blu ray like!" Everywhere you turned...SACD! Super Bowl Ads, etc,...Everyone would have known about it or at least heard of it and when asked about it, been able to give a somewhat informed answer to the question, "what is a SACD?" Now, let's go to the other end of the spectrum....Blu ray is on a whole nutha level! Ask anyone about bluray and guess what, even with the most non technical people, you'll most likely get some form of acknowledgment that the concept does exist type of answer. Why? Millions and millions in advertising! Billions in creating the platform! A Genre that's meant to take over and/or replace. Not to mention the free advertising given by the format war. Front page news in some instances! Why?! The BDA's & Sony's initial/ultimate goal was and still is for Blu Ray to take over the market! To replace the DVD. Can they both co-exist? Absolutely! Does Sony/BDA want that to happen?! HELL NO! Why share the market when you can become the market?! Yes market conditions and competition can alter strategies, but not the ultimate goal! You better believe that the BDA is measuring it's success on it's ability to replace the old format! Wouldn't you if you had everyone (manufacturer's/studios) committed to you!
Just my $0.02 worth.

Regards.

[Feanor]

Hello Feanor.

Your point holds water, but let's be real....Sony's initial objective with SACD was not even in the same ballpark as Blu ray. I mean completely on the other side of the spectrum! When Sony introduced SACD, if you were not familiar with the audio industry, or wasn't an avid music fan (audio enthusiast), if you will, or didn't read AV mags,....the average person knew nothing about the SACD or DVD-A. Never heard of it or if they had heard of if, didn't understand or care to understand. I do believe that Sony's initial intent was to introduce the new medium as an alternative and if it caught on to the mainstream, that was a bonus.
Then maybe, the initial success would lend to the possibility of replacing the CD. But if it didn't, you still had the audio enthusiast market, so the format would survive and co-exsist with the CD! If you go into a Best Buy or a Circuit City and ask the average employee if there are any SACD's or DVD-A'a available, (Oh, by the way, did you know there was a format war between DVD-A and SACD?!:idea: :biggrin5: Of course you did, you're an audio enthusiast! Ask the average Joe about it and see what you get!!) there's a great chance that they wouldn't have a clue of what you were talking about. Granted, those retailers now primarily sell the hi-res formats online. As a matter of fact, that's pretty much the only place you will find SACD's (online). If Sony's mission was indeed to replace the CD, the marketing would have been "Epic/Blu ray like!" Everywhere you turned...SACD! Super Bowl Ads, etc,...Everyone would have known about it or at least heard of it and when asked about it, been able to give a somewhat informed answer to the question, "what is a SACD?" Now, let's go to the other end of the spectrum....Blu ray is on a whole nutha level! Ask anyone about bluray and guess what, even with the most non technical people, you'll most likely get some form of acknowledgment that the concept does exist type of answer. Why? Millions and millions in advertising! Billions in creating the platform! A Genre that's meant to take over and/or replace. Not to mention the free advertising given by the format war. Front page news in some instances! Why?! The BDA's & Sony's initial/ultimate goal was and still is for Blu Ray to take over the market! To replace the DVD. Can they both co-exist? Absolutely! Does Sony/BDA want that to happen?! HELL NO! Why share the market when you can become the market?! Yes market conditions and competition can alter strategies, but not the ultimate goal! You better believe that the BDA is measuring it's success on it's ability to replace the old format! Wouldn't you if you had everyone (manufacturer's/studios) committed to you!
Just my $0.02 worth.

Regards.

I've got to admit that SACD and BluRay are different beasts. I only mentioned a SACD as an example of (a) a "stratification" product perhaps never intended to go mainstream, and (b) one that continues to exist as a "niche" product.

Could be that SACD will die, but if so it will be because it is replaced with a technically superior medium -- maybe BluRay?? -- but not because consumers give up on and just buy CDs. For that matter, audio BluRay, if it happens at all, will likely remain a niche product

Granted, BluRay is more likely meant to, and more likely to actually go mainstream. Its advantages are relatively more obvious to the typical consumer. Plus more basically, I think consumers are more concerned with visible perfection than audio perfect. The heyday of "hi-fi" was the '70s: why did mainstream interest in it decline? Obviously it was the advent of the video cassette.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks for your vote of confidence there Sir T.

I think you touched on this earlier but if all of those features you listed need a separate chip, then how did the PS3 receive all of it with just a simple firmware update? I can't see why each feature would need a separate chip set. If so, go ahead and put one in for SD upsampling, strike that, I get off track easily. I can maybe buy the production of current models being haulted in order to update and ship the new version but I can't accept these mega corporations not being able to flood the market with a product at the drop of a hat if they wanted.

You know if you stroked me like you do Kex we'd have to get engaged.

The PS3 does EVERYTHING in the software. The put an extremely powerful chip in the players, and create algorythms and code to make it work. They can continually upgrade performance via firmware upgrades. I think they have improved DVD upscaling since they offered it via firmware upgrade. My DVD look better than they used to when played through the PS3.

The players do need seperate chips. They do not make one large chip to handle everything like the PS3. It would just make the players more expensive, larger to accomodate extra cooling, and you would still have to have seperate paths to send the audio and video as seperate streams. Not a particularly efficient way of doing things.

I personally think that Kex get's it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

look beyond the bay area? He needs to look beyond his LIVING ROOM.

You sure are a jealous old fart. There is nothing wrong with my living room.


according to him, he has a setup that involves a a CRT front projector with 9in tubes,
most of it custom made, this to him is "average", hes actually said that this kind of setup is not uncommon.

Get your $hit straight old man. I said plenty of folks have purchase both the G-90 and the Electrohome 9500. Mitsubishi, Zenith, Toshiba and Hitachi all made RPTV's with 9" guns. So the idea of using 9" guns in a RPTV IS pretty common. The only difference between those sets and mine, is that mine is completely re-engineered and re-designed quite differently on the inside, my tubes are a MUCH higher quality, and I use custom color corrected lenses. The concept of using oversized tubes on a 65" screen is not new. Now to a poor ass old man who has never owned anything but a cheap single gun CRT and a cheap flat panel, this is probably a new concept to you.


This is how far outta touch with reality he is.
HE doesnt stoop to mingling with the great unwashed, he doesnt understand the popularity of LCD, why some would want a glare fre picture you can actually see
in a room with average lighting, not some monstrosity the size of a chifforobe that puts
out such a dim picture that you cant see it in a lit room.

I understand the popularity of LCD, I just think they don't look natural, and they do not come anywhere near the quality of what I presently get.

You are right, I do not like dogs with fleas. So please keep your distance.

Joe Kane does not advocate watching movies in brightly lit rooms. The screen may lack glare, but the ambient light in the room skews the contrast ratio. Remember, your idea of quality is much lower than mine.

I can see my picture in a room with light, I just do not choose to watch movies that way. How can you say my picture is too dim when your stupid a$$ has never seen it?


Hes outta touch with what everybodies buying, why should he be IN TOUCH
with the state of economic affairs?

I do not buy what everyone else buys because I am not the sheeple type. I do not follow folks into mediocrity. I am VERY in touch with the state of economic affairs, I am just more a realist than an alarmist.


This is the type that companies pay for advice, yes men who will tell them how smart they are, this is why companies make such stupid decisions.

Since I do not offer advice to companies, this comment is just about as stupid as you are.


If the suits at Sony actually understood just how bad it is out in the hinterland they would be horrified.

Why would they be horrified? The world does not start and stop in this country. The world is not coming to an end, and plasma's are not dead. You need to knock off the wolf crying.



They are making decisions based on a healthy economy.

How do you know what they are doing? Did you channel it?


They dont understand that they can sell 400 dollar toys all day long if they want, doesnt mean that anybody will buy the things.
the auto industry is having a similar problem, trying to sell 20,000 cars to people who are BROKE. :1:

The auto industry is not having any problem selling fuel efficient cars. And Sony, Panasonic, Samsung and Sharp are apparently not having any problems selling $400 bluray players. They are selling quite well as a matter of fact.

Did you say you lived in this world? Doesn't look like it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I guess you couldnt find any alarms from the fifties

I wasn't alive in the fifties. You wanna try again idiot? I do not do alarms, and never have. Every person that does installs does not do alarms, but of course you wouldn't know that because you don't have a clue of what installer really do.





You're joking, right? You use stuff they dont even MAKE anymore.
Can't get more "behind" the curve than that

The stuff I use is better than what they have today, so that makes me ahead of the curve.





Which is way more advanced than your rubbish :1:

Oh really?. You cheap ass panel barely does 720p. Mine does a VERY clean 1440p. So much for your idea of what is more advanced.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hello Feanor.

Your point holds water, but let's be real....Sony's initial objective with SACD was not even in the same ballpark as Blu ray. I mean completely on the other side of the spectrum! When Sony introduced SACD, if you were not familiar with the audio industry, or wasn't an avid music fan (audio enthusiast), if you will, or didn't read AV mags,....the average person knew nothing about the SACD or DVD-A. Never heard of it or if they had heard of if, didn't understand or care to understand. I do believe that Sony's initial intent was to introduce the new medium as an alternative and if it caught on to the mainstream, that was a bonus.

Once the BDA was formed, Sony no longer was in charge of the direction of bluray. It became the baby of 300+ CE companies. Secondly it was the intent of the CE manufacturers, the Studios, and the BDA that BR would succeed DVD. Everyone wants it because nobody is making money off of DVD anymore. They never had the objective to release bluray as an alternative.


Then maybe, the initial success would lend to the possibility of replacing the CD. But if it didn't, you still had the audio enthusiast market, so the format would survive and co-exsist with the CD! If you go into a Best Buy or a Circuit City and ask the average employee if there are any SACD's or DVD-A'a available, (Oh, by the way, did you know there was a format war between DVD-A and SACD?!:idea: :biggrin5: Of course you did, you're an audio enthusiast! Ask the average Joe about it and see what you get!!) there's a great chance that they wouldn't have a clue of what you were talking about. Granted, those retailers now primarily sell the hi-res formats online. As a matter of fact, that's pretty much the only place you will find SACD's (online). If Sony's mission was indeed to replace the CD, the marketing would have been "Epic/Blu ray like!" Everywhere you turned...SACD! Super Bowl Ads, etc,...Everyone would have known about it or at least heard of it and when asked about it, been able to give a somewhat informed answer to the question, "what is a SACD?" Now, let's go to the other end of the spectrum....Blu ray is on a whole nutha level! Ask anyone about bluray and guess what, even with the most non technical people, you'll most likely get some form of acknowledgment that the concept does exist type of answer. Why? Millions and millions in advertising! Billions in creating the platform! A Genre that's meant to take over and/or replace. Not to mention the free advertising given by the format war. Front page news in some instances! Why?! The BDA's & Sony's initial/ultimate goal was and still is for Blu Ray to take over the market! To replace the DVD. Can they both co-exist? Absolutely! Does Sony/BDA want that to happen?! HELL NO! Why share the market when you can become the market?! Yes market conditions and competition can alter strategies, but not the ultimate goal! You better believe that the BDA is measuring it's success on it's ability to replace the old format! Wouldn't you if you had everyone (manufacturer's/studios) committed to you!
Just my $0.02 worth.

Regards.

DVD and bluray will co-exist for a while. But NOBODY, not just the BDA, NOBODY wants the DVD to stay around forever, except Toshiba of course. Not the retailers, not the manufacturers or the studios. The DVD has had its day just like VHS did.

[ldgibson76]

Once the BDA was formed, Sony no longer was in charge of the direction of bluray. It became the baby of 300+ CE companies. Secondly it was the intent of the CE manufacturers, the Studios, and the BDA that BR would succeed DVD. Everyone wants it because nobody is making money off of DVD anymore. They never had the objective to release bluray as an alternative.



DVD and bluray will co-exist for a while. But NOBODY, not just the BDA, NOBODY wants the DVD to stay around forever, except Toshiba of course. Not the retailers, not the manufacturers or the studios. The DVD has had its day just like VHS did.

"Sir T".

I find it hard to believe that after selling, what is it ......4 million+ PS3's in the US, and obviously it's doing well in Europe and Asia, 10 million+ worldwide, and is basically responsible for Blu ray's ability to penetrate the market as effectively as it did in such a short period of time, that Sony has been reduced to the "baby of 300+ CE companies"! No longer involved in the decision making. That's like saying because we have electricity, we no longer need the sun!:shocked:
Can you please qualify that statement., because I just can't see Sony not having at least some input in the direction BD technology goes. I mean, seriously, if it wasn't for the PS3, there is a good chance Bluray would have lost the format war way before Christmas 2007!
Please brief me, because I just can't understand how the BD consortium could bite the hands that fed them!

BTW, I finally made some since in my previous entry.:aureola: You didn't decimate the post! Thanks! :skep:
Sir T, I respect your perspective, but I still think it's a "market condition" thing. This country is all about instant gratification, no matter what it is! We are in fact "Rome Redux"!

Holla!

[filecat13]

Speaking of Sony and CRT, I have two Seleco HD CRT projectors with Sony tubes in them. The tubes are amazing in more ways than one. Their levels of definition and contrast are out of this world, and they are just effing intimidating to look at when the case is open. They look they could kill you (and in fact they can). Unbelievable feats of engineering even for what some call old tech.

Of course calibration and set up are daunting and no task for the timid, but there's not much in the projection field that can top them. I did find a Mitsubishi LCD 1080p projector that is way more convenient, easy to set up, and quieter. It is better in some respects due to technological advancements, but it still can't match the CRT in many respects.

I've got a friend who works for Sony in Culver City. It's such a large conglomerate that each of its individual divisions is akin to an independent company. So the actions of Sony "A" might be completely unknown by Sony "B"; Sony "C" might be lead by someone with the amoral ruthlessness of a shark, and Sony "D" might be headed by one of the nicest, sharpest, most-principled people you'll ever know. He's been in multiple divisions on multiple campuses, so I give credence to his observations.

I think we have a tendency to define a company as a single entity, a single thing, but most of these large corporations are so diverse and disparate that it's not realistic to simply lump all the people and divisions into one thing and denigrate the whole mass by citing a single event, product, action, or mistake as representing the whole enterprise.

We also do this to markets. Yes, LP was largely replaced by CD, but LP and cassette and reel-to-reel coexisted for a number of years (yep, even 8 track) as they really served different purposes and worked in different markets. I remember a few cars with record players in them, but talk about the wrong product for a market. Tape players obviously made more sense.

The CD managed to marginalize and even eliminate some products because it was so versatile, and the digital versatile disc was a logical extension of its capabilities, but of course DVDs weren't intended to replace CDs as much as to extend them and the physical format, and in the process, film, VHS tapes and LDs pretty much bit the dust. SACD, DVD-A, BluRay, HD DVD, Penteo, MP3 files, AAC files all appeal to greater or lesser degrees to different market needs.

Some will remain in a niche and some may become ubiquitous like the CD did. Those that lose money (like HD DVD) or don't have a good ROI will likely lose manufacturer support and either be championed by a dedicated niche or disappear. As someone else noted, if it makes enough money, it's a winner whether it dominates the market or not.

This seems like three posts because I kept coming back to it during breaks and it's all over the freakin' map. Ah well, I'm not going to NOT post it now. :blush2:

[Feanor]

...
DVD and bluray will co-exist for a while. But NOBODY, not just the BDA, NOBODY wants the DVD to stay around forever, except Toshiba of course. Not the retailers, not the manufacturers or the studios. The DVD has had its day just like VHS did.

I agree with your first sentence, Sir T. Because I for one won't be buying BluRay hardware or software until prices drop significantly. I'll bet they won't refuse to sell me DVD in the meantime.

Come to think of it, when prices start to look good to me, the BDA manufacturers' margins will have thinned to the point that BluRay isn't going to seem like such a bonanza.

I remind you I'm still watching 27" CRT and I'm not the only one.

[Smokey]

I agree with your first sentence, Sir T. Because I for one won't be buying BluRay hardware or software until prices drop significantly. I'll bet they won't refuse to sell me DVD in the meantime.



I agree with Sir TT too that dvd probably will be with us for while and co exist with Blu ray-if not for TV shows. Given that most TV shows pre year 2000 were recorded in NTSC 480i format, that archive material does not benefit from blu ray format and probably be left to DVD.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"Sir T".

I find it hard to believe that after selling, what is it ......4 million+ PS3's in the US, and obviously it's doing well in Europe and Asia, 10 million+ worldwide, and is basically responsible for Blu ray's ability to penetrate the market as effectively as it did in such a short period of time, that Sony has been reduced to the "baby of 300+ CE companies"! No longer involved in the decision making. That's like saying because we have electricity, we no longer need the sun!:shocked:

Its good you are making all of these inquiries, because its pretty obvious you do not know the complexity of either the BDA, or Sony. First, SCE is who started the development of the bluray format. It is Sony's gaming division that makes the PS3. They are not joined at the hip. Now that the bluray format is developed, and the PS3 is released, these two seperate intities barely speak to one another. Sony's gaming division is now working on the game development, SCE players, and Sony Studio's movies. Three completely seperate intities under the Sony brand name. All of them are run seperate from one another

Sony is not the only heavy hitter in the BDA. Pioneer has the almost all the patents for BR disc technology, and shares patents with Panasonic for the replication process. Disney, Warner, Sony, and Fox are the heavy hitters in the studio area. Disney has fronted the most marketing money of anyone in the BDA. Back in 2003 when the BDA was officially started, Sony was the $hit. Now that there are over 300 companies in the BDA, Sony is a heavy hitter, but they are not the $hit anymore. They do not rule the roost. The do not give the marching orders, and everyone else follows. No matter how many PS3 they have sold. There is a HUGE misconception that Sony single handedly threw billions to get BR off the ground. Not true. They spent millions to get the PS3 to market, and it just happens to have a BR drive in it. Even if this great piece of equipment didn't have a BR drive, Sony's gaming division would of had to still invest millions to get it to market. Bluray as a format is fully funded by the BDA, not Sony. Sony's exposure lies in the PS3, not the BR format as a whole. Sony is the face of BR, but it took the entire BDA to get BR to market, not just Sony.



Can you please qualify that statement., because I just can't see Sony not having at least some input in the direction BD technology goes. I mean, seriously, if it wasn't for the PS3, there is a good chance Bluray would have lost the format war way before Christmas 2007!
Please brief me, because I just can't understand how the BD consortium could bite the hands that fed them!

Who says the BDA bites the hand that feeds them? I didn't. l did not say that Sony was powerless or uninfluential. I said they are not the top dog. The don't just give marching orders and everyone follows. Bluray drives are in Computers(so the computer companies have a big say), in standalone players(so the CE manufacturers have a big say) the studios provide the content(so they have a big say as well) Sony does have an interest in BR success. They get royalities from the technology just like Toshiba gets royalities from the DVD format. So it was a stroke of genius, AND in Sony's best interest to get those PS3 out there. They knew they could sell alot of them in a short time, they knew it would bring gamers into the movie fold, and movie folks possibly into the gaming fold(they got me!), and they could use this as an advantage and a hedge against Toshiba early start on HD DVD. It worked. In two months BR caught HD DVD and overtook them in players in the market, and in disc sales. One month after that, they were outselling HD DVD 2-1 in disc sales, and had more than twice as many players in the market via the PS3. You need to keep this in mind. Sony made alot of promises to the companies of the BDA to get their support. They got it, so Sony has a degree of performance they HAD to accomplish to keep that support. So you think the BDA has to be beholden to Sony, when in fact it is the other way around. And just to support this contention, Sony sacrificed the PS3 as a gaming machine early(much to the gaming division displeasure) to satisfy the promises they made to the companies that form the BDA. Perceptions can often be deceiving.


BTW, I finally made some since in my previous entry.:aureola: You didn't decimate the post! Thanks! :skep:
Sir T, I respect your perspective, but I still think it's a "market condition" thing. This country is all about instant gratification, no matter what it is! We are in fact "Rome Redux"!

Holla!

What can be more gratifying than buying a player and some discs, go home, and enjoy the glory of full bit 24ftps 1080p with lossless audio? Some things are definately beholden to "market conditions". However if you look back at history, video players(VHS, DVD, Laserdisc, and DVD) and movies have largely come out unscathed during economic downturns. FYI, during the depression the movie industry was one of a few industries that actually grew and made money. People still went to the movie theaters, and the studios churned out movies left and right, and grew like gang busters. It was that way for VHS during the early 80's economic downturn, and the early 90's as well. It was that way for DVD during the 2000-2003 worldwide economic down turn. As I have said to you earlier, player sales are booming worldwide. Disc sales even more so. This thread was started with the impression that things are not going well for BR. That is in fact not true at all. The christmas season was absolutely HUGE for bluray. Its one of the reasons that Warner choose to support bluray exclusively. In spite of the fact that HD DVD players were super cheap, bluray players completely dominated sales between the two. Now that the war is over, and the smoke has cleared, we discovered that the HD DVD was padding their numbers, and spinning the truth. So sales can actually fall 40% from christmas season, and sales are still five times more than this period last year. Since ALL of consumer electronics sales are typically down after the holidays, this really is a non event. DVD players sales are down lower than blurays as a percentage of sales at this point. DVD disc sales are also down next to bluray as a percentage of sales. Televisions are down in sales, as are most hometheater equipment. EVERY year from January to June it is this way, good economic times or bad. The third and fourth quarters are always the big sales period, and this trend goes back to the sale of VHS recorders.

The DVD format is a spent format. There really are no more catalog titles to release to the format, they are already out there. The studios know the public is not going for third and fourth dips on DVD releases, so they NEED bluray to succeed. THEY NEED IT! They have to have a way of re-releasing their catalog titles again so they can finance operations. They are not going to get the kind of revenue from downloads and VOD that they can get from disc sales. The only companies that will benefit from downloads is Apple and Microsoft. The retailers are cut out of that, and they are not going to lose their market to those computer companies, so they have a VERY strong interest in selling bluray players and disc to keep themselves in the game. Rental stores will also be cut out, and they do not want to lose their market to Apple and Microsoft. The studio do not want Apple and Microsoft's model to work because they know they will not make the revenue they need to support operations. The worst thing everyone could do is rush to commodisize the bluray format thereby shortening its lifespan. It is better for all of them(and the consumer as well) if the bluray format takes the same course as all other video formats have done. Steady long term growth, not quick cheap mass market domination in ten minutes.

You really need to look at the larger long term picture. That is what the Japanese do, and why they have been so successful with so many products. Its the America way to go the quick high revenue short term strategy, and that is why American businesses are in the shambles they are in. They have no long term plan. Its rush, get the quick profit, and then watch the business implode. The American auto industry has made a career of this.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Speaking of Sony and CRT, I have two Seleco HD CRT projectors with Sony tubes in them. The tubes are amazing in more ways than one. Their levels of definition and contrast are out of this world, and they are just effing intimidating to look at when the case is open. They look they could kill you (and in fact they can). Unbelievable feats of engineering even for what some call old tech.

Those that call it old tech just do not have the exposure to anything but cheap single gun CRT televisions. The ballgame changes completely when you move up to three gun CRT's. Seleco was a damn good brand, and put out really good projectors. Some folks really do not understand how far they took three gun CRT's, and how far back in performance from those CRT's we went to get flat panel LCD and plasma.:1:


Of course calibration and set up are daunting and no task for the timid, but there's not much in the projection field that can top them. I did find a Mitsubishi LCD 1080p projector that is way more convenient, easy to set up, and quieter. It is better in some respects due to technological advancements, but it still can't match the CRT in many respects.

I absolutely agree with this. However, when either LCD or plasma catches up in performance to what I have, I am going to ditch what I have and go that direction. Performance wise, I will still deal with the hassle and expense of yearly cleaning and calibration until that time. I am not the type that will choose convience over performance, there are those pixie types that do though:1:


I've got a friend who works for Sony in Culver City. It's such a large conglomerate that each of its individual divisions is akin to an independent company. So the actions of Sony "A" might be completely unknown by Sony "B"; Sony "C" might be lead by someone with the amoral ruthlessness of a shark, and Sony "D" might be headed by one of the nicest, sharpest, most-principled people you'll ever know. He's been in multiple divisions on multiple campuses, so I give credence to his observations.

This describes Sony to a tee(a Sir T at that!). A while back I asked bluray insider Paidgeek who is a top executive in SPE(Sony pictures Entertainment) about when the PS3 was going to get Dts MA lossless. He told me he had no idea(this was about six months ago) that he would have to check with Sony's gaming division. When another insider asked when Sony was going to release players with internal decoding of the audio formats, he stated he would have to check with Sony's consumer electronics division. He did not know either of the answers, and that is when I realized that Sony was a brand name for numerous smaller companies which do not really communicate with one another. He did say that when divisions do have to work together, it is much easier to do than to work with an outside company though.


I think we have a tendency to define a company as a single entity, a single thing, but most of these large corporations are so diverse and disparate that it's not realistic to simply lump all the people and divisions into one thing and denigrate the whole mass by citing a single event, product, action, or mistake as representing the whole enterprise.

A perfect example of this is Disney. You have Disney Distribution, Walt Disney Motion Pictures Group, Disney Channel, Disney Channel Original, ESPN, ESPN2, Jetix, Walt Disney Studios, Walt Disney Parks and Resorts, Walt Disney Television Animation, Walt Disney Records, Walt Disney Pictures, Touchstone Pictures, Miramax Films, ABC Studios and Television Network, ABC Family, ABC Kids, Playhouse Disney, Disney Consumer Products, Pixar, Soapnet, Disney Interactive Studios, Muppets Holding Company, Disney Store, and Toon Disney.

These are all Disney, but run as seperate intities.



We also do this to markets. Yes, LP was largely replaced by CD, but LP and cassette and reel-to-reel coexisted for a number of years (yep, even 8 track) as they really served different purposes and worked in different markets. I remember a few cars with record players in them, but talk about the wrong product for a market. Tape players obviously made more sense.

The CD managed to marginalize and even eliminate some products because it was so versatile, and the digital versatile disc was a logical extension of its capabilities, but of course DVDs weren't intended to replace CDs as much as to extend them and the physical format, and in the process, film, VHS tapes and LDs pretty much bit the dust. SACD, DVD-A, BluRay, HD DVD, Penteo, MP3 files, AAC files all appeal to greater or lesser degrees to different market needs.

And this also goes for VOD and downloading. I totally agree with this.


Some will remain in a niche and some may become ubiquitous like the CD did. Those that lose money (like HD DVD) or don't have a good ROI will likely lose manufacturer support and either be championed by a dedicated niche or disappear. As someone else noted, if it makes enough money, it's a winner whether it dominates the market or not.

Bingo, bingo, bingo!!!! Damn, you and Kex got this down man:thumbsup: Its all about the Benjamins, the dead Presidents, the green, the buck..you git the picture!(oh damn where is that damn ghetto smiley, HERE IT IS :1:)

[ldgibson76]

Well said "Sir T".
Thank you for the explanation and clarification.

[pixelthis]

Speaking of Sony and CRT, I have two Seleco HD CRT projectors with Sony tubes in them. The tubes are amazing in more ways than one. Their levels of definition and contrast are out of this world, and they are just effing intimidating to look at when the case is open. They look they could kill you (and in fact they can). Unbelievable feats of engineering even for what some call old tech.

Of course calibration and set up are daunting and no task for the timid, but there's not much in the projection field that can top them. I did find a Mitsubishi LCD 1080p projector that is way more convenient, easy to set up, and quieter. It is better in some respects due to technological advancements, but it still can't match the CRT in many respects.

I've got a friend who works for Sony in Culver City. It's such a large conglomerate that each of its individual divisions is akin to an independent company. So the actions of Sony "A" might be completely unknown by Sony "B"; Sony "C" might be lead by someone with the amoral ruthlessness of a shark, and Sony "D" might be headed by one of the nicest, sharpest, most-principled people you'll ever know. He's been in multiple divisions on multiple campuses, so I give credence to his observations.

I think we have a tendency to define a company as a single entity, a single thing, but most of these large corporations are so diverse and disparate that it's not realistic to simply lump all the people and divisions into one thing and denigrate the whole mass by citing a single event, product, action, or mistake as representing the whole enterprise.

We also do this to markets. Yes, LP was largely replaced by CD, but LP and cassette and reel-to-reel coexisted for a number of years (yep, even 8 track) as they really served different purposes and worked in different markets. I remember a few cars with record players in them, but talk about the wrong product for a market. Tape players obviously made more sense.

The CD managed to marginalize and even eliminate some products because it was so versatile, and the digital versatile disc was a logical extension of its capabilities, but of course DVDs weren't intended to replace CDs as much as to extend them and the physical format, and in the process, film, VHS tapes and LDs pretty much bit the dust. SACD, DVD-A, BluRay, HD DVD, Penteo, MP3 files, AAC files all appeal to greater or lesser degrees to different market needs.

Some will remain in a niche and some may become ubiquitous like the CD did. Those that lose money (like HD DVD) or don't have a good ROI will likely lose manufacturer support and either be championed by a dedicated niche or disappear. As someone else noted, if it makes enough money, it's a winner whether it dominates the market or not.

This seems like three posts because I kept coming back to it during breaks and it's all over the freakin' map. Ah well, I'm not going to NOT post it now. :blush2:


Heres the deal about CRT.
Its dead. Finito. adios
what I keep saying(and sir talky keeps ignoring) is that its possible, true, to have a decent, even great picture using CRT, NOBODIES DISPUTING THAT.
However, how much did that seleco of yours cost?
How much does it have to be tweaked, including taking into account the earths magnetic field? AND HOW LONG WILL THOSE GREAT TUBES LAST.
And how much space will a CRT projector take up in a modern home?
The differences between a highend LCOS or DLP front projector and a CRT are slight,
you can talk about the "test bench" but most, even pros, wont be able to eyeball much of a difference. If any, and thats what matters in the real world.
The first cars couldnt outrun a horse. NOBODY CARED.
And thats pretty much the case today.
A finicky , hard to keep adjusted CRT with burn in and other issues will, for thousands of dollars and a lot of aggravation, outperform a modern display, SLIGHTY.
And a helicopter will get me to work two minutes faster.
Is a helicopter worth the two hundred or so grand?
Is the razor thin improvement in blacklevel, paired with decreased light output and high cost , worth thousands ? Not to most.
And if you want a customized rig that is obsolete, a lot of trouble, and very expensive,
then fine, its your dime.
just dont say its "average", or that its even worth the money, because ITS NOT.
And in five years you will toss it, probably, because tubes wont exist anymore :1:

[Ajani]

Heres the deal about CRT.
Its dead. Finito. adios
what I keep saying(and sir talky keeps ignoring) is that its possible, true, to have a decent, even great picture using CRT, NOBODIES DISPUTING THAT.
However, how much did that seleco of yours cost?
How much does it have to be tweaked, including taking into account the earths magnetic field? AND HOW LONG WILL THOSE GREAT TUBES LAST.
And how much space will a CRT projector take up in a modern home?
The differences between a highend LCOS or DLP front projector and a CRT are slight,
you can talk about the "test bench" but most, even pros, wont be able to eyeball much of a difference. If any, and thats what matters in the real world.
The first cars couldnt outrun a horse. NOBODY CARED.
And thats pretty much the case today.
A finicky , hard to keep adjusted CRT with burn in and other issues will, for thousands of dollars and a lot of aggravation, outperform a modern display, SLIGHTY.
And a helicopter will get me to work two minutes faster.
Is a helicopter worth the two hundred or so grand?
Is the razor thin improvement in blacklevel, paired with decreased light output and high cost , worth thousands ? Not to most.
And if you want a customized rig that is obsolete, a lot of trouble, and very expensive,
then fine, its your dime.
just dont say its "average", or that its even worth the money, because ITS NOT.
And in five years you will toss it, probably, because tubes wont exist anymore :1:

Let's not exagerate the advantages of LCD over CRT.

CRT is dying for good reason (I'll get back to that) but even so, I agree with Sir Talky that a good CRT under proper conditions (dark room etc..) will produce a better picture than LCD, Plasma or DLP (in my experience anyway).... Yet somehow CRT is still going the way of the dinosaur...

Why???

Probably because for most consumers, having the absolute best possible picture is not their sole priority when buying a TV. Convenience usually wins out over absolute performance. The same applies in audio, which is why we see so many people going towards MP3 player and HT-In-A-Box systems with microscopic speakers (that deliver miserable audio performance). While hardcore audiophiles and videophiles don't mind sacrifising their entire living room/basement to massive CRT Rear Projection TVs and Speakers that look like tree trunks or barn doors, most consumers are not willing to make that sacrifice.

Now apply the notion that consumer's sole priority is not ultimate video/audio quality and you get an idea of the problem facing BluRay, HD-DVD, SACD, DVD-A or any other premium format. While I actually like BluRay (I'm even considering whether a PS3 would be a better choice of HT Server than an AppleTV etc for my living room) I think to really take the place of DVD (which has good enough picture for many) it will have to show that it also provides more convenience, the same or cheaper price or some other real compelling benefit). Lower prices usually translates into higher sales volumes. DVD is relatively cheap, so BluRay has a lot of work ahead of it, to convince non-videophiles that they should fork out the extra money for the upgraded picture.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Let's not exagerate the advantages of LCD over CRT.

When you have owned nothing better than a cheap single gun television you tend to do this.


CRT is dying for good reason (I'll get back to that) but even so, I agree with Sir Talky that a good CRT under proper conditions (dark room etc..) will produce a better picture than LCD, Plasma or DLP (in my experience anyway).... Yet somehow CRT is still going the way of the dinosaur...

Absolutely agree. This is becuase of folks just like Pixelneck, the "good enough" folks who do not care about quality and performance, but care about the convience, size, the weight, whether it had a Bar Mitzvah or not, whether you can watch in broad daylight(where no properly calibrated for performance television can perform well including LCD, plasma's and DLP's) burn in(no properly calibrated television of any kind will suffer burn in), or how much space(you make the space when you want the performance) The average "good enough" person (pixelfoo), and the performance types(Sir Talky) will probably never know each others perspective. They are 180 degrees out of phase with one another :1: vs :10:


Why???

Probably because for most consumers, having the absolute best possible picture is not their sole priority when buying a TV. Convenience usually wins out over absolute performance. The same applies in audio, which is why we see so many people going towards MP3 player and HT-In-A-Box systems with microscopic speakers (that deliver miserable audio performance). While hardcore audiophiles and videophiles don't mind sacrifising their entire living room/basement to massive CRT Rear Projection TVs and Speakers that look like tree trunks or barn doors, most consumers are not willing to make that sacrifice.

Bingo. See Ajani, we can agree to agree about sumptin!:thumbsup:


Now apply the notion that consumer's sole priority is not ultimate video/audio quality and you get an idea of the problem facing BluRay, HD-DVD, SACD, DVD-A or any other premium format. While I actually like BluRay (I'm even considering whether a PS3 would be a better choice of HT Server than an AppleTV etc for my living room) I think to really take the place of DVD (which has good enough picture for many) it will have to show that it also provides more convenience, the same or cheaper price or some other real compelling benefit). Lower prices usually translates into higher sales volumes. DVD is relatively cheap, so BluRay has a lot of work ahead of it, to convince non-videophiles that they should fork out the extra money for the upgraded picture.

Here where you are running kind of a train wreck. The DVD is not going to provide the studios the necessary operating income they need going forward because the market is already in decline(dropping -2.5% a year for the last three years, and -6% so far this year). There are going to be fewer movies released in the future because it costs so much to make them. So the DVD market is just not going to grow. There are no more catalog titles in the studio libraries to release(they are already out there), and what can or could provide any profit going forward will not be released AGAIN!. DVD's good days are behind us. As a recording format, HD is going to replace it, and it has already started with HD DVR's. As a music format it is basically dead(DVD-A is toast)

The more folks get educated and exposed to really great images(this does not have to take place within the next ten minutes, it can take years), the more folks will clamor for sources that create them. Folks are buying HD flat panels at a pretty good clip, and they are buying them in larger and larger sizes every year. Bluray looks pretty good on those televisions It was that way with DVD over VHS, and it will probably be for Bluray over DVD. The biggest thing that will help get Bluray out there, is the NEED the retailers, studios, and CE manufacturers have for it. For them DVD is spent. There is nothing in it for the big boys(Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer etc), the movie companies, nor the big boxes(they're ending up in bargain bins in huge quantities). All of these business need a shot in the arm right now, and Bluray can provide it. Bluray players WILL get cheaper, but do not expect dirt cheap prices withing three years of the formats life. There is no hurry for bluray to overtake DVD in sales and relevance. That time will come when it comes. But IMO, the bluray format has a very long life it can live. You can get the highest quality images the eye can resolve(1080p), the best audio an ear can resolve (24/192khz over 8 channels), and advanced interactive features (that are on disc and/or web based). How can a "next format" give you anything better than that? Everyone from the casual person to the audiophile/videophile can get something from it. The great thing for EVERYONE is that we now get our favorite movies with better picture quality and sound than the DVD, and the studio can release their catalog titles over time(AGAIN!) which insure that movies will be made going into the future. Everyone wins. I do not know about you, but I as a movie collector and hometheater enthusiast really HD on disc whether it came from HD DVD or Bluray. It has finally made my investment in the hobby worth the money. That is just MY experience.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Heres the deal about CRT.
Its dead. Finito. adios
what I keep saying(and sir talky keeps ignoring) is that its possible, true, to have a decent, even great picture using CRT, NOBODIES DISPUTING THAT.
However, how much did that seleco of yours cost?
How much does it have to be tweaked, including taking into account the earths magnetic field? AND HOW LONG WILL THOSE GREAT TUBES LAST.
And how much space will a CRT projector take up in a modern home?
The differences between a highend LCOS or DLP front projector and a CRT are slight,
you can talk about the "test bench" but most, even pros, wont be able to eyeball much of a difference. If any, and thats what matters in the real world.
The first cars couldnt outrun a horse. NOBODY CARED.
And thats pretty much the case today.
A finicky , hard to keep adjusted CRT with burn in and other issues will, for thousands of dollars and a lot of aggravation, outperform a modern display, SLIGHTY.
And a helicopter will get me to work two minutes faster.
Is a helicopter worth the two hundred or so grand?
Is the razor thin improvement in blacklevel, paired with decreased light output and high cost , worth thousands ? Not to most.
And if you want a customized rig that is obsolete, a lot of trouble, and very expensive,
then fine, its your dime.
just dont say its "average", or that its even worth the money, because ITS NOT.
And in five years you will toss it, probably, because tubes wont exist anymore :1:

Pixelneck, you have absolutely no perspective beyond cheap single gun CRT's, so your so called knowledge of anything higher than that is exactly NIL:1:

You have no idea how well a quality three gun CRT performs, so your comparison between it and anything else isn't even close to credible. :1:

You have never seen an image from a three gun CRT, so you have no idea of its light output under ANY light conditions. :1:

You have'nt a clue of the advancement that have been made to three gun CRT display devices even though they do not make them any more. I am not worried about not having tubes in five years, the tubes I have in my G-90 and RPTV were new when I bought them. They will last for years and years just like the old 7" three gun CRT's from the late 90's are still in service today, and can still provide great images. When you properly calibrate your display devices, and maintain them, they last for years :1:

Folks have different tastes. You will settle for lower video quality for the sake of convinence, size, space, peak light output, and cheapness. I desire quality build, and real world measureable and visual performance. The two will never see eye to eye, they're priorities are just too different. That is why there is a high end in audio and video, a mid level catagory, and a budget catagory. Folks will pay for their priorities and conviencesm no matter what they are.:1:

Just because the "big guys" got out of CRT technology does not mean the technology is dead. The technology on the low end IS basically dead. But on the high end it is still doing quite well thanks to Curt Palmers's company, and the businesses that support upgrades and rebuilds. Its larger than your think. There are folks out there that still take performance over convience. Just because the market isn't huge does not mean it is dead. Your black and white perspective is obsolete in a world where grey is dominate:1:

[pixelthis]

Pixelneck, you have absolutely no perspective beyond cheap single gun CRT's, so your so called knowledge of anything higher than that is exactly NIL:1:

You have no idea how well a quality three gun CRT performs, so your comparison between it and anything else isn't even close to credible. :1:

You have never seen an image from a three gun CRT, so you have no idea of its light output under ANY light conditions. :1:

You have'nt a clue of the advancement that have been made to three gun CRT display devices even though they do not make them any more. I am not worried about not having tubes in five years, the tubes I have in my G-90 and RPTV were new when I bought them. They will last for years and years just like the old 7" three gun CRT's from the late 90's are still in service today, and can still provide great images. When you properly calibrate your display devices, and maintain them, they last for years :1:

Folks have different tastes. You will settle for lower video quality for the sake of convinence, size, space, peak light output, and cheapness. I desire quality build, and real world measureable and visual performance. The two will never see eye to eye, they're priorities are just too different. That is why there is a high end in audio and video, a mid level catagory, and a budget catagory. Folks will pay for their priorities and conviencesm no matter what they are.:1:

Just because the "big guys" got out of CRT technology does not mean the technology is dead. The technology on the low end IS basically dead. But on the high end it is still doing quite well thanks to Curt Palmers's company, and the businesses that support upgrades and rebuilds. Its larger than your think. There are folks out there that still take performance over convience. Just because the market isn't huge does not mean it is dead. Your black and white perspective is obsolete in a world where grey is dominate:1:

THIS WILL BE A MOOT argument in five years, maybe two.
LCD has made great progress in the last decade, and in improving every day
with contrast ratios of 10,000-1 or more.
And OLED is ramping up, will be easier to produce because of lack of a backlight.
BTW if by guns you are talking about Tubes I have had three RPTVS with three tubes each.
And I DONT MISS THE CONSTANT TWEAKING, BURN IN, and dim picture.
To each his own true, but your setup is extreme, an anal reteentive control freaks dream, and everybody elses nightmare

[pixelthis]

When you have owned nothing better than a cheap single gun television you tend to do this.



[QUOTE]Absolutely agree. This is becuase of folks just like Pixelneck, the "good enough" folks who do not care about quality and performance, but care about the convience, size, the weight, whether it had a Bar Mitzvah or not, whether you can watch in broad daylight(where no properly calibrated for performance television can perform well including LCD, plasma's and DLP's) burn in(no properly calibrated television of any kind will suffer burn in), or how much space(you make the space when you want the performance) The average "good enough" person (pixelfoo), and the performance types(Sir Talky) will probably never know each others perspective. They are 180 degrees out of phase with one another :1: vs :10:

I buy the best tv I can afford, usually, and its what fits my needs.
I dont see the need to get a "test bench wonder" that isnt well suited to the real world.
Everybody strives for teh best they can get on this board, just because they dont have a monstrosity that costs as much as a ranch house doesnt make their choices suspect



Bingo. See Ajani, we can agree to agree about sumptin!:thumbsup:

You cant agree with anybody about anything



Here where you are running kind of a train wreck. The DVD is not going to provide the studios the necessary operating income they need going forward because the market is already in decline(dropping -2.5% a year for the last three years, and -6% so far this year). There are going to be fewer movies released in the future because it costs so much to make them. So the DVD market is just not going to grow. There are no more catalog titles in the studio libraries to release(they are already out there), and what can or could provide any profit going forward will not be released AGAIN!. DVD's good days are behind us. As a recording format, HD is going to replace it, and it has already started with HD DVR's. As a music format it is basically dead(DVD-A is toast)

This is a common fallacy and shows your ignorance, the market doesnt care
if the studios arent getting "enough" income ( a 200% profit margin) on what they are producing.
And its going to cost less to make movies due to computer tech and other factors.
The big hollywood "blockbusters" arent the only part of the market.
Just because they forgot how to make a movie that people want to see, and stick to a budget doesnt mean that everybody else did.
Blu isnt going to provide them with an income stream just because they want it to.
If that was the way the world worked you could set the price on what you sell to whatever you want, which is silly. AND WHAT you KEEP SAYING, btw.
Doesnt matter if the Blu group wants the price of players at 400 bucks, if people dont want to pay that they will sit on the shelf.
Eventually something will replace them.



The more folks get educated and exposed to really great images(this does not have to take place within the next ten minutes, it can take years), the more folks will clamor for sources that create them. Folks are buying HD flat panels at a pretty good clip, and they are buying them in larger and larger sizes every year. Bluray looks pretty good on those televisions It was that way with DVD over VHS, and it will probably be for Bluray over DVD. The biggest thing that will help get Bluray out there, is the NEED the retailers, studios, and CE manufacturers have for it. For them DVD is spent. There is nothing in it for the big boys(Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer etc), the movie companies, nor the big boxes(they're ending up in bargain bins in huge quantities). All of these business need a shot in the arm right now, and Bluray can provide it. Bluray players WILL get cheaper, but do not expect dirt cheap prices withing three years of the formats life. There is no hurry for bluray to overtake DVD in sales and relevance. That time will come when it comes. But IMO, the bluray format has a very long life it can live. You can get the highest quality images the eye can resolve(1080p), the best audio an ear can resolve (24/192khz over 8 channels), and advanced interactive features (that are on disc and/or web based). How can a "next format" give you anything better than that? Everyone from the casual person to the audiophile/videophile can get something from it. The great thing for EVERYONE is that we now get our favorite movies with better picture quality and sound than the DVD, and the studio can release their catalog titles over time(AGAIN!) which insure that movies will be made going into the future. Everyone wins. I do not know about you, but I as a movie collector and hometheater enthusiast really HD on disc whether it came from HD DVD or Bluray. It has finally made my investment in the hobby worth the money. That is just MY experience.

YEP, the market will sit still and let blu types build their market share by selling expensive players that nobody will buy. Makes about as much sense as anything else you have said.
Its not a question of educating the "masses", they have already made up their mind,
and to most blu is evolutionary, not revolutionary.
The picture is quite compelling with a 1080p television, but only about half have HD sets, and of those a tiny fraction is 1080p.
MEANWHILE new formats are coming out.
A new translucent disc, can hold 1 TB of info, solid state drives, VOD, eventually
the disc will be replaced with a solid state storage system, which can alreadu hold enough for a DVD.
The blu group wont be the first group of idiots to think that they can sit back and not
worry about the turtles in the race.
The only advantage Blu has is a blu laser, not gonna stay that way forever.
As for people "clamoring" for great images and sound, lately all they have been "clamoring" for is affordable gas and food, and jobs to pay for them with:1:

[Feanor]

...
I buy the best tv I can afford, usually, and its what fits my needs.
I dont see the need to get a "test bench wonder" that isnt well suited to the real world.
Everybody strives for teh best they can get on this board, just because they dont have a monstrosity that costs as much as a ranch house doesnt make their choices suspect
...

if the studios arent getting "enough" income ( a 200% profit margin) on what they are producing.
And its going to cost less to make movies due to computer tech and other factors.
The big hollywood "blockbusters" arent the only part of the market.
Just because they forgot how to make a movie that people want to see, and stick to a budget doesnt mean that everybody else did.
Blu isnt going to provide them with an income stream just because they want it to.
If that was the way the world worked you could set the price on what you sell to whatever you want, which is silly. AND WHAT you KEEP SAYING, btw.
Doesnt matter if the Blu group wants the price of players at 400 bucks, if people dont want to pay that they will sit on the shelf.
Eventually something will replace them.
...

YEP, the market will sit still and let blu types build their market share by selling expensive players that nobody will buy. Makes about as much sense as anything else you have said.
Its not a question of educating the "masses", they have already made up their mind, and to most blu is evolutionary, not revolutionary.
The picture is quite compelling with a 1080p television, but only about half have HD sets, and of those a tiny fraction is 1080p.
MEANWHILE new formats are coming out.
A new translucent disc, can hold 1 TB of info, solid state drives, VOD, eventually the disc will be replaced with a solid state storage system, which can alreadu hold enough for a DVD.
The blu group wont be the first group of idiots to think that they can sit back and not worry about the turtles in the race.
The only advantage Blu has is a blu laser, not gonna stay that way forever.
As for people "clamoring" for great images and sound, lately all they have been "clamoring" for is affordable gas and food, and jobs to pay for them with:1:

I have to laugh when I hear Sir Terrance talking about his 9" gun projector. I don't doubt his description of the technology and its strengths, but I do tend to agree with Pixelthis about its relevance. If it's so great, how come its off the market: an explanation along the lines that "you don't know because you only know your 27" CRT" aren't very convincing. (Describes me to a tee, granted.)

The public doesn't give a flying 'F' about the studios making money: they aren't going to rush to BluRay because studios' margins are low. They have to perceive value and the have to have the cash to pay for the technology. I'm one of those pathetic souls who doesn't have an HDTV: what's 1080p to me? BluRay would be nice; so would filet mignon and a bottle of Chateau Rothschild for supper but I won't be getting that either.

Sure, likely I go BluRay someday, but that will be when I can get a 46" 1080p plazma for $800 and the BluRay player for $170. And BluRay software selling for a bit less than DVD today. Where will the studios' and manufacturers' margins be when that happens? (Right back where, supposedly, they are now.)

Am I exceptionally poor? Well, I'm Canadian which doesn't help. But no, I doubt it. The North American economy has been sustained, despite global economy, outsourcing, and an extravagant American foreign policy, by a huge ballooning of the personal debt of working, (or as Americans would say, "middle class"), people. The Sub-prime Mortgage crisis has shown that this can't go on much longer.

[kexodusc]

I

Am I exceptionally poor? Well, I'm Canadian which doesn't help.

LOL. You might be surprised. Especially as you approach retirement...

[filecat13]

Heres the deal about CRT. Its dead. Finito. adios what I keep saying(and sir talky keeps ignoring) is that its possible, true, to have a decent, even great picture using CRT, NOBODIES DISPUTING THAT.:

So why this lengthy, disputational post? It appears you're being contrary just for the sake of dispute. Oh, because "nodobies" disputing it. Are you writing you're a "nobodie," whatever that is.


However, how much did that seleco of yours cost?:

I got it for under $2000 because some poor schmuck took his dealer at his word. What was his word? "CRT is dead." So the poor sap sold me a $19,000 projector with 32 hours on it, and he bought a $12,000 light cannon from his dealer to replace it. I got to see "why he upgraded" when I picked up the SIM2/Seleco. His new PJ had stunning grays...


How much does it have to be tweaked, including taking into account the earths magnetic field? AND HOW LONG WILL THOSE GREAT TUBES LAST.:

I guess they'll last at least five more years at 2000 hours per year. It has to be tweaked about once a month, easy enough to do with the supplied calibration remote. After a couple of months, I could do it faster than most guys farting around with their digital PJs who don't really know what any of the settings are (you know, guys who think contrast and brightness do the same thing). So, it takes seven to ten minutes if I'm really picky.


And how much space will a CRT projector take up in a modern home?:

It takes up about six square feet on my ceiling. I don't spend much time on my ceiling, so it's not an inconvenience.


The differences between a highend LCOS or DLP front projector and a CRT are slight, you can talk about the "test bench" but most, even pros, wont be able to eyeball much of a difference. If any, and thats what matters in the real world.:

The pros you are writing about need to come to my house. Maybe you should come with them. No, on second thought, let's just leave you guys outside. As long as you know-it-alls are expending your efforts bothering other people, then I don't have to be bothered.

Most pros are into selling products and services, not in telling potential customers that their current projector is still state of the art and doesn't need upgrading. What I'm amazed by are the large numbers of people who throw out perfectly good equipment to gain one or two small advances, then they totally ignore the things they've lost. It's called cognitive dissonance, and it means they fool themselves into ignoring the obvious logical flaws in their behavior because it would mean admitting they were wrong in their choice. So, they recreate reality to suit their circumstances.


The first cars couldnt outrun a horse. NOBODY CARED.
And thats pretty much the case today.:

Cars still can't outrun horses? OMG! That's what you just wrote. Think before writing a statement like this.


A finicky , hard to keep adjusted CRT with burn in and other issues will, for thousands of dollars and a lot of aggravation, outperform a modern display, SLIGHTY.:

There's no meaningful reply for this kind of assumption-laden, worst-case, out-of-reality statement. Oh look!! I just made one.


And a helicopter will get me to work two minutes faster.
Is a helicopter worth the two hundred or so grand?:

Will a helicopter outrun a horse? How about a flying horse? How about a flying horse that's farting? Is so, then it's definitely worth it.


Is the razor thin improvement in blacklevel, paired with decreased light output and high cost , worth thousands ? Not to most.
And if you want a customized rig that is obsolete, a lot of trouble, and very expensive,
then fine, its your dime. just dont say its "average", or that its even worth the money, because ITS NOT. And in five years you will toss it, probably, because tubes wont exist anymore :1:

Your assumptions made about CRT, specifically my CRT:
"razor thin improvement in black level": wrong.
"decreased light output": wrong
"high cost": wrong
"worth thousands": well yes, actually worth thousands, but I paid less that $2k, so wrong.
"obsolete": wrong
"a lot of trouble": wrong
"very expensive": wrong
"don't say it's average": right, it's not average; it's way above average in almost every way
"worth the money because ITS NOT": wrong
"tubes won't exist anymore": wrong
and
"in five years you will toss it": probably right, but not for the reasons you state. I fully expect CRT to be superseded in all important ways in five years. Plus my units will have lived their expected lives.

It would be wrong, however just to toss them, as they contain lost of useful parts and lots of hazardous parts, so I'll do the responsible thing by recycling what I can and properly disposing of hazardous materials. These big CRTs will have far less impact on the planet that the thousands of digital PJs that are tossed in the trash by lazy consumers who use throw away, short-life products.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have to laugh when I hear Sir Terrance talking about his 9" gun projector. I don't doubt his description of the technology and its strengths, but I do tend to agree with Pixelthis about its relevance. If it's so great, how come its off the market: an explanation along the lines that "you don't know because you only know your 27" CRT" aren't very convincing. (Describes me to a tee, granted.)

The big guys don't make them, not because they didn't perform better than LCD or Plasma, but because it takes more work and expense to keep them properly calibrated than LCD and Plasma, and they take up more space than LCD and plasma. For those of us who prefer the performance, this means nothing to us. That is the relevance. Relevance is not dictate by what the masses do, it is dictated by the needs and desires of the purchaser. I am not the sheeple type, so excuse me for actually thinking for myself.


The public doesn't give a flying 'F' about the studios make money: they aren't going to rush to BluRay because studios' margins are low. They have to perceive value and the have to have the cash to pay for the technology. I'm one of those pathetic souls who doesn't have an HDTV: what's 1080p to me? BluRay would be nice; so would filet mignon and a bottle of Chateau Rothschild for supper but I won't be getting that either.

Nobody said the public was going to flock to bluray just to increase the studios profits, please do not put words in my mouth. I said(and rather clearly) the Studios want bluray to succeed because it funds operations, and helps to finance the increasing costs of making movies. No movies, no DVD and no Bluray. The public gets something out of it as well. We get the best audio and video images we have ever seen in the home. The studios get something, and so does the public. Everyone wins.

For those who do not care about 1080p or lossless audio, bluray will not appeal to you and its no loss. You are not the consumer bluray is trying to reach. It does not have to appeal to everyone in the world to be a sucess. Some folks have not even gotten into DVD yet!


Sure, likely I go BluRay someday, but that will be when I can get a 46" 1080p plazma for $800 and the BluRay player for $170. And BluRay software selling for a bit less than DVD today. Where will the studios' margins be when that happens? (Right back where, supposedly, they are now.)

Don't know about the television, but its going to take years for a bluray player to get to $170 bucks. Nobody is in a hurry to see prices get this low at this time, or any time soon. I am sure the BDA is aware that there are folks that care more about price than anything. These folks will have to wait until the prices of players come down to them. They cannot expect the BDA or any manufacturer to subsidize or artificially pushed down prices to accomodate them. It ain't gonna happen.


Am I exceptionally poor? Well, I'm Canadian which doesn't help. But no, I doubt it. North American economy has been sustained despite global economy, outsourcing, and an extravagant American foreign policy, buy a huge ballooning of the personal debt of working, (or as Americans would say, "middle class"), people. The Sub-prime Mortgage crisis has shown that this can't go on much longer.

You are correct. Americans need to change how they spend, their energy policy( it'll get easier when the oil guy is gone), and we need to learn the purchase less, buy quality products that last, save more, and buy smaller more efficient cars.

Actually what the sub prime mortgage has taught us is that mortgage industry need to be regulated, and the American people need to be quite a bit less greedy.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I buy the best tv I can afford, usually, and its what fits my needs.
I dont see the need to get a "test bench wonder" that isnt well suited to the real world.
Everybody strives for teh best they can get on this board, just because they dont have a monstrosity that costs as much as a ranch house doesnt make their choices suspect

I believe you were the one knocking people for their choice. Didn't you say I didn't live in the real world because I chose a custom made CRT RPTV and a high end CRT projector? You made your choice, I made mine. You chose the low end, I chose the high end. Different strokes for different folks. I have said this a thousand times to you, don't know why you are having such a hard time grasping the concept. Stubborness? :1:



You cant agree with anybody about anything

This shows just how freakin stupid you are. I just agreed with Ajani, and then you turn around and say I cannot agree with anyone. How stupid is that old man?:1:




This is a common fallacy and shows your ignorance, the market doesnt care
if the studios arent getting "enough" income ( a 200% profit margin) on what they are producing.

How do you know they make a 200% profit? You don't idiot. Its not even close to that. If you don't know something, shout the **** up and talk about what you do know. That should take about three seconds. :1:


And its going to cost less to make movies due to computer tech and other factors.

Shows how much you know stupid. Good CGI is expensive, VERY expensive. The more CGI you use, the more the movie will cost. When your an idiot that does not work in the industry that you think your an expert in, you tend to make yourself look like a fool when you are continually wrong on your assumptions.


The big hollywood "blockbusters" arent the only part of the market.

Yes, but they make the most money, which is why we keep gettin them. :1:


Just because they forgot how to make a movie that people want to see, and stick to a budget doesnt mean that everybody else did.

I don't know pixelidiot, Iron man is doing pretty well right. The box office is up this year. :1:



Blu isnt going to provide them with an income stream just because they want it to.

Did anyone say it was? Were do you get these stupid comments from?


If that was the way the world worked you could set the price on what you sell to whatever you want, which is silly. AND WHAT you KEEP SAYING, btw.

Isn't this the way it works? Didn't Vizio set the price of their LCD panels? Doesn't Panasonic set the price of their Plasmas? Don't car dealers set the price they charge for their cars? Its called the free market pixelfoo. You set the price to what you think the market can stand to maximize your profits.


Doesnt matter if the Blu group wants the price of players at 400 bucks, if people dont want to pay that they will sit on the shelf.
Eventually something will replace them.

One problem idiot. They are not sitting on the shelves. They cannot keep them on the shelves. People are buying the players before they get to the shelves, or soon after. Something could replace bluray only if the studios and manufacturers want it to. The manufacturers make the stuff, and nobody is going to undercut Bluray with another video product. HD VMD has been trying for a year now to do it, and its not happening. Its cheaper than bluray, but the guy introducing the product is trying to do so outside the channels of success(which is the consumer electronics industry), and without Hollywoods support(he got a few independent companies to release films to his format). Its floundering and gaining no traction. Things just do not pop up and replace other things. If the studios do not want it(and they control the content right?) it ain't gonna happen. End of sentence.


YEP, the market will sit still and let blu types build their market share by selling expensive players that nobody will buy. Makes about as much sense as anything else you have said.

If they are selling five times more players than they did last year at this time, then obviously the market is growing. Disc sales are higher now than during the holiday season. So obviously folks are buying disc to play in their players. So this nobody will buy is rediculous. The PS3 is a $400 players, and Sony has sold millions of them.


Its not a question of educating the "masses", they have already made up their mind,
and to most blu is evolutionary, not revolutionary
The picture is quite compelling with a 1080p television, but only about half have HD sets, and of those a tiny fraction is 1080p.

How can you say the masses have already made up there mind. Their minds are not stagnant. People change their minds, and there are many different conditions that do it.
Folks who do not buy now because the players are expensive change their minds when players come out that fit their budgets. It does not matter if this is two months or two years from now. :1:

Bluray is not an evolution of DVD. An evolution of a product signifies a baby or small step upwards. Bluray is a revolutionary format. No format up to this point uses blue laser technology, had as much storage space, and has applications that fit such a wide swath of people's needs. Audiophiles can certainly appreciate 24/192khz 8 channel audio(something that cannot be accomplished with DVD), videophiles can certainly appreciate 24fps 1080p with lossless soundtracks(something that cannot be acheived with DVD). The average joe can appreciate the better quality images and advanced interactive features.

The best selling flat panel televisions currently are 1080p. It has been that way for quite a while now, you should stay out of costco and Walmart when looking for sets. :1: Even with native 720p panels(that are calibrated), bluray looks far better than DVD because of less compression, less video noise, less pixelation, less color banding(which is a HUGE problem with DVD) and less filtering of the image. So you do not have to wallow in ignorance. According to NDP, sales of 1080p televisions caught up with 720p panels the end of last year. When it comes to television in homes, thanks to brisk sales over the holiday, and exploding sales recently, 1080p televisions in homes is a hairsbreath away from catching 720p panel. When it comes to projector sales, they are neck and neck, and 1080p projectors(even the cheaper ones) are predicted to overtake 720p in total sales in just a few months at the rate they have been selling.

When you are a bottom feeder, you only pay attention to things that are happening at the bottom. However, there is a whole world happening over your head.



MEANWHILE new formats are coming out. A new translucent disc, can hold 1 TB of info, solid state drives, VOD, eventually
the disc will be replaced with a solid state storage system, which can alreadu hold enough for a DVD.

What you do not seem to get in your fat thick head is the public is not ready to manage digital files for movies. Music yes, but not movies. Survey after survey has shown the American public still has a tendency to want physical media, not digital files when it comes to movies. Music is not movies. Movies are not music. If you treat them the same as a business model, you will come up short. Ask Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Walmart, and Movietone. The sell through of digital media is NIL in the grand scheme of things. Microsoft, Apple and Amazon have all lost money trying to sell movies as digital files. They are doing well with television programs, but even movie rental of downloads is doing only fair. This is not new technology.

Bluray can release a 200GB disc tomorrow that will play in every Bluray player. The problem is, they are not needed, and the studios do not want it. When Sony was laying the plans for bluray, they went to the studios and asked their engineers what disc capacity would allow them to do everything they wanted to do with a HD movie. Based on the comments they got, they set Bluray capacity for movies at 50GB, because those engineers believed that is all that is needed on the high end of the equation. The studio I work for specifically wanted 50GB, and just about every release has been on a 50GB disc.

Solid state drives performance so far has been mixed, and I know of no studio even looking at the technology since the computer industry has not done so well with it.

While the studio are cooly embracing VOD, its not a growing market, as BR passed it in revenue within a year after it was released. Revenue from 2006 through 2007 is down by more than a $100 million dollars, and the studios do not see this as a major revenue source for at least a decade if ever. Bluray is going to be replaced by something, but NOBODY knows what that is. And nobody thinks that unknown technology is going to challenge bluray tomorrow, at least nobody who knows the film and video industry exclusively(CNET and Engaget are not experts in the film industry). I know computer geeks are attempting to push their agenda with downloading, but it appears the public as a whole is not biting that bait.

No new technology will come to market unless the content providers allow it. You cannot play movies in any device if the studio won't supply the content to that device. Ask Sony.


The blu group wont be the first group of idiots to think that they can sit back and not
worry about the turtles in the race.
The only advantage Blu has is a blu laser, not gonna stay that way forever.
As for people "clamoring" for great images and sound, lately all they have been "clamoring" for is affordable gas and food, and jobs to pay for them with:1:

The turtles will come to bluray when they come, and if they come at all. The BDA and the studios understand that. You do not have to come to them, when they are ready they will come to you. It was that way for VHS, that way for DVD, and things will not be all that different for bluray. When prices come inline with their budget, if they are interested in HD movies, they will buy. Even your cheap A$$ will buy one at some time.

To a person who does not own a bluray player(and not even a decent TV) the laser WOULD be its only advantage to them(that would be you stupid!). To folks who have experience with it, it satisfies the audiophile in me with high resolution audio, and it satisfies the videophile in me with 24fps 1080p images. And it does it on such a high level that the $499 I paid for the PS3 is a freakin steal. :1:

[audio amateur]

I still don't understand how you all do it... (well, maybe not all)
Fun to read though!

[audio amateur]

Probably because for most consumers, having the absolute best possible picture is not their sole priority when buying a TV. Convenience usually wins out over absolute performance. The same applies in audio, which is why we see so many people going towards MP3 player and HT-In-A-Box systems with microscopic speakers (that deliver miserable audio performance). While hardcore audiophiles and videophiles don't mind sacrifising their entire living room/basement to massive CRT Rear Projection TVs and Speakers that look like tree trunks or barn doors, most consumers are not willing to make that sacrifice.
I like that:D

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T, do you have an answer for this?

Why are they using DTS-MA & Tru-HD when they could have simply stayed with Uncompressed? The DTS/DD HD formats need separate chips or software and not compatible with older gear. That's probably the answer, oops, I'm being negative again. Uncompressed is usable from even my 1200 and can hook up to MC analog. I watched The Golden Compass with DTS-MA and I guess it used the default because it sounded worse than the Uncompressed soundtracks I have. I'd really like to know if there is any advantage to the DTS/DD HD formats. I thought Uncompressed is basically as good as it gets. I can't understand why they'd pay these companies for royalties and inconvenience consumers for nothing.

[kexodusc]

Sir T, do you have an answer for this?

Why are they using DTS-MA & Tru-HD when they could have simply stayed with Uncompressed? The DTS/DD HD formats need separate chips or software and not compatible with older gear. That's probably the answer, oops, I'm being negative again. Uncompressed is usable from even my 1200 and can hook up to MC analog. I watched The Golden Compass with DTS-MA and I guess it used the default because it sounded worse than the Uncompressed soundtracks I have. I'd really like to know if there is any advantage to the DTS/DD HD formats. I thought Uncompressed is basically as good as it gets. I can't understand why they'd pay these companies for royalties and inconvenience consumers for nothing.

I'm not Sir T, but my guess is storage potential in the future...possibly bandwidth efficiency too? If there's a more efficient way of storing digital information, then why not use it.

There's no reason to waste space on uncompressed audio when lossless compression is available. Equal sound quality, but one is more efficiently packed. Just like music formats - there's lossy compression (mp3), and lossless compression (FLAC, Apple Lossless). DTS-MA etc, are lossless...as in perfect copies of the original uncompressed music. When uncompressed by the decoder they will turn into exact bit for bit copies of the original. I actually tested this with FLAC on several tracks. The wave files that they create are bit for bit copies of the original.

As for The Golden Compass and things sounding worse - can only speculate on how that could be possible. Mr. Peabody, are you saying the DTS-MA track on The Golden Compass sound worse than the uncompressed track or just worse than other BluRay titles' uncompressed tracks? Could be a bad mixing job on that particular title, but if the DTS-MA is executed properly, the info sent to your amplifier from the processor would be 100% identical to that when using uncompressed audio.

Conspiracy!!!

[Mr Peabody]

It still seems like it they asked the engineers as Sir T said, the engineers should have allowed enough space for uncompressed, it was perfect, works with older gear, it's uncompressed.....

Allow me to clarify, my BR player does not have the decoder for DTS-MA. It seems like these lossless formats were another after thought like, let's go back to decoding in the receiver. Seems like if BDA is 300+ members there should have been some sort of concensus among them before rolling BR out. But maybe that wasn't possible in the rush to market.

[pixelthis]

I have to laugh when I hear Sir Terrance talking about his 9" gun projector. I don't doubt his description of the technology and its strengths, but I do tend to agree with Pixelthis about its relevance. If it's so great, how come its off the market: an explanation along the lines that "you don't know because you only know your 27" CRT" aren't very convincing. (Describes me to a tee, granted.)

The public doesn't give a flying 'F' about the studios making money: they aren't going to rush to BluRay because studios' margins are low. They have to perceive value and the have to have the cash to pay for the technology. I'm one of those pathetic souls who doesn't have an HDTV: what's 1080p to me? BluRay would be nice; so would filet mignon and a bottle of Chateau Rothschild for supper but I won't be getting that either.

Sure, likely I go BluRay someday, but that will be when I can get a 46" 1080p plazma for $800 and the BluRay player for $170. And BluRay software selling for a bit less than DVD today. Where will the studios' and manufacturers' margins be when that happens? (Right back where, supposedly, they are now.)

Am I exceptionally poor? Well, I'm Canadian which doesn't help. But no, I doubt it. The North American economy has been sustained, despite global economy, outsourcing, and an extravagant American foreign policy, by a huge ballooning of the personal debt of working, (or as Americans would say, "middle class"), people. The Sub-prime Mortgage crisis has shown that this can't go on much longer.



FINALLY, a voice of reason.
I am not knocking sir talkys "kit" as the Brits say, but he keeps saying that if you dont have one you are "compromising".
Which is rediculous
THANKS FOR THE SANITY anyway:1:

[pixelthis]

[=filecat13]So why this lengthy, disputational post? It appears you're being contrary just for the sake of dispute. Oh, because "nodobies" disputing it. Are you writing you're a "nobodie," whatever that is.

Just correcting the record.
AND i AM NOT A "NOBODIE" , but CRT has been around for almost a century,
it should be good



I got it for under $2000 because some poor schmuck took his dealer at his word. What was his word? "CRT is dead." So the poor sap sold me a $19,000 projector with 32 hours on it, and he bought a $12,000 light cannon from his dealer to replace it. I got to see "why he upgraded" when I picked up the SIM2/Seleco. His new PJ had stunning grays...


I might have bought one for that, thats how much my Mitshu 60" cost


I guess they'll last at least five more years at 2000 hours per year. It has to be tweaked about once a month, easy enough to do with the supplied calibration remote. After a couple of months, I could do it faster than most guys farting around with their digital PJs who don't really know what any of the settings are (you know, guys who think contrast and brightness do the same thing). So, it takes seven to ten minutes if I'm really picky.

Outside of adjusting for source I DONT HAVE TO ADJUST MY SET AT ALL



It takes up about six square feet on my ceiling. I don't spend much time on my ceiling, so it's not an inconvenience.

Not until it comes loose




Most pros are into selling products and services, not in telling potential customers that their current projector is still state of the art and doesn't need upgrading. What I'm amazed by are the large numbers of people who throw out perfectly good equipment to gain one or two small advances, then they totally ignore the things they've lost. It's called cognitive dissonance, and it means they fool themselves into ignoring the obvious logical flaws in their behavior because it would mean admitting they were wrong in their choice. So, they recreate reality to suit their circumstances.

In other words they are "wrong" because you dont agree with their choices.
This is called meglomania.
Filecat, meet sir terrence the terrible chill-wawa



Cars still can't outrun horses? OMG! That's what you just wrote. Think before writing a statement like this.

Do some research before opening your mouth and betraying your ignorance.
THE FIRST CARS COULD barely do more than five to ten miles an hour.
You think they had V8 engines in the late 1800's?
IF most had stuck with last gen tech (horses) like sir talky with his CRTs then we would still be riding horses as a main form of transport.
MONEY SPENT ON HORSES (OR CRT) is money that wont be used to help develope
the next gen tech



There's no meaningful reply for this kind of assumption-laden, worst-case, out-of-reality statement. Oh look!! I just made one.

I HAVE USED CRT most of my life, dont miss it a bit.
And this is not a "worst case" statement, just everyday life with CRT.
You yourself have to adjust yours once a month.
Would you put up with a car requiring a tune up every month?



Will a helicopter outrun a horse? How about a flying horse? How about a flying horse that's farting? Is so, then it's definitely worth it.

you need to lay off of the mescaline


Your assumptions made about CRT, specifically my CRT:

"razor thin improvement in black level": wrong."

Not really

decreased light output": wrong
Dont even try to tell me that a CRT can beat a mercury bulb, not even close


"high cost": wrong"
19,000$??? yeah thats sooo cheap, lets just buy a six pack!!


worth thousands": well yes, actually worth thousands, but I paid less that $2k, so wrong.
Doesnt matter what you paid, its still not worth it, newer tech is better, overall


"obsolete": wrong"

Then why arent they made anymore?

a lot of trouble": wrong
More than a modern display

"very expensive": wrong"
19,000 IS A BARGAIN, YEP, but since nobodies buying them anymore you can probably get one cheap, just like buggy whips in the 1920's


don't say it's average": right, it's not average; it's way above average in almost every way"
SLIGHTLY ABOVE AVERAGE IN SOME RESPECTS, overall not worth the trouble
worth the money because ITS NOT": wrong
Not if you want to pay that much for a future boat anchor


"tubes won't exist anymore": wrong

Why in gods name would anybody make them?
peeps just dont understand just how difficult it is to make a CRT, you can only get the phosper for them in a few places

and

"in five years you will toss it": probably right, but not for the reasons you state. I fully expect CRT to be superseded in all important ways in five years. Plus my units will have lived their expected lives.

GOOD FOR YOU, and thanks for conceding the point, you're not totally hopeless


It would be wrong, however just to toss them, as they contain lost of useful parts and lots of hazardous parts, so I'll do the responsible thing by recycling what I can and properly disposing of hazardous materials. These big CRTs will have far less impact on the planet that the thousands of digital PJs that are tossed in the trash by lazy consumers who use throw away, short-life products.
most products these days are built with recycling in mind, and modern recycling tech
is quite refined.
The enviromental impact of CRT is when you're making them :1:

[pixelthis]

=kexodusc]I'm not Sir T, but my guess is storage potential in the future...possibly bandwidth efficiency too? If there's a more efficient way of storing digital information, then why not use it.

Using that logic then MP3 must be the absolute best


There's no reason to waste space on uncompressed audio when lossless compression is available. Equal sound quality, but one is more efficiently packed. Just like music formats - there's lossy compression (mp3), and lossless compression (FLAC, Apple Lossless). DTS-MA etc, are lossless...as in perfect copies of the original uncompressed music. When uncompressed by the decoder they will turn into exact bit for bit copies of the original. I actually tested this with FLAC on several tracks. The wave files that they create are bit for bit copies of the original.

The ideal is uncompressed full freak sound perfectly copied.
I USE fLAC, and it is quite good, but with terabyte storage on a CD sized disc around the corner then why bother with compression?
Compression is an ingenious way of usin available space to best advantage, but increased storage capacity will render it obsolete except in certain circumstances:1:

Conspiracy!!![/QUOTE]

[kexodusc]

Using that logic then MP3 must be the absolute best
Not if the goal is to provide uncompressed audio sound tracks in the smallest file size possible. MP3 can't do that. Flac, DTS-HD MA etc can. That's why they use it.
Storage size remains quite fixed for BluRay discs right now. Maybe in the future they'll expand disc capacity, but even if they do, there's no reason not to use a more efficient system. Especially if data transfer rates benefit.


The ideal is uncompressed full freak sound perfectly copied.
I USE fLAC, and it is quite good, but with terabyte storage on a CD sized disc around the corner then why bother with compression?
BluRay wants to throw all sorts of useless extra features on the disc - interactive stuff, anti-piracy measures, and of course all those special features that people supposedly watch - who wouldn't want to miss guided tour of the assistant director's trailer and watch what the music composer has for breakfast? We should get into the habbit of using all the best technologies available together, not just going back to storage size.

[kexodusc]

It still seems like it they asked the engineers as Sir T said, the engineers should have allowed enough space for uncompressed, it was perfect, works with older gear, it's uncompressed.....

Allow me to clarify, my BR player does not have the decoder for DTS-MA. It seems like these lossless formats were another after thought like, let's go back to decoding in the receiver. Seems like if BDA is 300+ members there should have been some sort of concensus among them before rolling BR out. But maybe that wasn't possible in the rush to market.
If you're not decoding the DTS-HD MA bitstream, then I believe it defaults to the higher bitrate DTS.

I don't think it would matter how long the BDA stood back and waited - there will always be another latest, greatest feature offered by Dolby or someone. Maybe it's not fair to blame the BDA for the pissing match Dolby and DTS continue to have developing new audio codecs. There was a necessity to get this to market and waiting for DTS-HD MA to be ready when not even 1% of the hardware was supporting it just didn't make sense. Their competition (HD-DVD) didn't wait either, so it kind of forced thier hand.

I can sympathize with their challenge, too. They trying to offer as many audio choices as they can to satisfy the huge disparity in equipment capability between consumer types.
Your system can pass the uncompressed multi-channel track. My mom and dad will be quite happy with the new, higher bitrates the core Dolby Digital and DTS tracks will offer (a significant improvement in itself) and they probably won't rush to buy the latest greatest HDMI reciever for awhile. I suspect the majority of BluRay users for quite some time will default to those options and not take advantage of hi-rez capability.

Then there's the keeners out there like LJ who have spiffy HDMI receivers/processors and a player that decodes the DTS-HD MA format and can have the best of both worlds.

If they come out with something better next year, I hope it makes it to BluRay eventually. I didn't complain when DTS was added to DVD later.

[Feanor]

Using that logic then MP3 must be the absolute best
...
The ideal is uncompressed full freak sound perfectly copied.
I USE fLAC, and it is quite good, but with terabyte storage on a CD sized disc around the corner then why bother with compression?
Compression is an ingenious way of usin available space to best advantage, but increased storage capacity will render it obsolete except in certain circumstances:1:

Conspiracy!!![/quote]

There's no prob with lossless compressed only assuming enough processing power to expand the compression. When CD was conceived 30 years ago, processing power for decompresion was an issue, it isn't today. Note that it takes less processing power if there's less compression, i.e. if you can decode 128kbps MP3 you'll have have no problem with lossless.

SACDs' DSD layers are all lossless compressed and there is no issue with these.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, do you have an answer for this?

Why are they using DTS-MA & Tru-HD when they could have simply stayed with Uncompressed? The DTS/DD HD formats need separate chips or software and not compatible with older gear. That's probably the answer, oops, I'm being negative again. Uncompressed is usable from even my 1200 and can hook up to MC analog. I watched The Golden Compass with DTS-MA and I guess it used the default because it sounded worse than the Uncompressed soundtracks I have. I'd really like to know if there is any advantage to the DTS/DD HD formats. I thought Uncompressed is basically as good as it gets. I can't understand why they'd pay these companies for royalties and inconvenience consumers for nothing.

Dts MA lossless and Dolby truHD are used to maximize disc space. Its not a bandwidth issue as the audio and video use seperate streams and paths on Bluray. Its the amount of disc space they both ultimately take up. When you use uncompressed PCM audio, depending on the length of the movie, you may have to compressed the video more aggressively which leaves the chance for artifacts to crop up. 24bit uncompressed PCM runs at 6.9mbps constant bitrate(which takes up alot of space on disc) 24bit Dts MA lossless runs an average of 4-5 mbps, and 24bit Dolby truHD from 3-4mbps. Both take up quite a bit less space than PCM, which means you can fit more extras on the disc, or you can compress video less aggressively.

I have lobbied hard for my studio to keep using PCM audio on our movies because every player supports it. However some movies length will prevent us from using uncompressed PCM, so on those movies Dolby TrueHD will be used.

As far as the Golden Compass, you were listening to the Dts core soundtrack. Its lossy at 1509kbps, but sound damn good for a lossy format. The Samsung does not support Dts MA lossless for either internal decoding, or bitstreaming.

[ldgibson76]

Ssssshhhh! "The Oracle" speaks!:10:

I have a question for you "Sir T", or anyone else willing to chime in......

So, if I implement the 5.1/7.1 analogue inputs for audio from my BD-P1200, what will be the most I will get from it if the blu ray dvd encoded with TDHD or DTS-HD or even DTS HD- MA?! Can any of these formats be converted to analogue therefore allowing for the playback of the higher bitrate? I hope I articulated this question correctly. I'm still trying to thoroughly understand all of this stuff. I guess the appropriate question should be, what's the most I can get from a TDHD, DTS-HD/MA encoded disc if I connect my BD-P1200 via the 5.1 analogue connection?! Please forgive my ignorance. You would think I'd learn by now!:aureola: :

Thanks!

[filecat13]

but CRT has been around for almost a century,
it should be good

It is, thanks for admitting it.







Outside of adjusting for source I DONT HAVE TO ADJUST MY SET AT ALL

Of course not, it's as good as it's going to get. Why waste any more time on it.?



Not until it comes loose

I didn't have you install it, so I'm not worried.




In other words they are "wrong" because you dont agree with their choices.
This is called meglomania.
Filecat, meet sir terrence the terrible chill-wawa

I didn't write they were wrong. Don't try misquote me if you can't read the original words.

I looked in the dictionary for "megalomania," and your picture was next to the definition.



Do some research before opening your mouth and betraying your ignorance. THE FIRST CARS COULD barely do more than five to ten miles an hour.
You think they had V8 engines in the late 1800's?
IF most had stuck with last gen tech (horses) like sir talky with his CRTs then we would still be riding horses as a main form of transport.
MONEY SPENT ON HORSES (OR CRT) is money that wont be used to help develope
the next gen tech

You are so funny! You still can't read your own writing. You're the one who wrote that today's cars can't go faster than horses.



I HAVE USED CRT most of my life, dont miss it a bit.
And this is not a "worst case" statement, just everyday life with CRT.
You yourself have to adjust yours once a month.
Would you put up with a car requiring a tune up every month?

Most people wouldn't, but if I could have a Lamborghini or Ferrari and it needed a tune up every month, you'd be sure I'd take that challenge to have a great car.



you need to lay off of the mescaline

You really shouldn't ascribe illegal habits to others. I'm completely drug-free and proud of it. If you think it's funny, you need to think again.



Your assumptions made about CRT, specifically my CRT:"
Not really
Dont even try to tell me that a CRT can beat a mercury bulb, not even close
"19,000$??? yeah thats sooo cheap, lets just buy a six pack!!
Doesnt matter what you paid, its still not worth it, newer tech is better, overall"
Then why arent they made anymore?
More than a modern display"
19,000 IS A BARGAIN, YEP, but since nobodies buying them anymore you can probably get one cheap, just like buggy whips in the 1920's"
SLIGHTLY ABOVE AVERAGE IN SOME RESPECTS, overall not worth the trouble
worth the money because ITS NOT": wrong
Not if you want to pay that much for a future boat anchor
Why in gods name would anybody make them?
peeps just dont understand just how difficult it is to make a CRT, you can only get the phosper for them in a few places
and
GOOD FOR YOU, and thanks for conceding the point, you're not totally hopeless
most products these days are built with recycling in mind, and modern recycling tech
is quite refined.
The enviromental impact of CRT is when you're making them :1:

Brother, it's like you're raving. Why don't you calm down? Maybe go off by yourself for a while and relax? All the shouting and irrational statements do not make your case for you.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

THIS WILL BE A MOOT argument in five years, maybe two.

It will not be a moot arguement until there are no more single or multi gun CRT's in existance. Hate to tell ya this, but there is perhaps ten to twenty times more CRT based televisions in the field than flat panels. They have been on the market for more than 50 years, and they are not going to disappear in five years. :1:


LCD has made great progress in the last decade, and in improving every day
with contrast ratios of 10,000-1 or more.

Sorry Pixeliar, but there is NO LCD on the market that even comes close to 10,000:1, not even close. You are showing your gullibility be believing manufactuers claims. There is only one panel on the market right now that does, and it ain't a LCD panel at all. It is a $6000 50" plasma panel by Pioneer.


And OLED is ramping up, will be easier to produce because of lack of a backlight.

Sony just showed a $4000 11" OLED television, and there is another 20" model in developement by Sharp. They are still in the lab with this technology, and you are not going to see sizes that we see right now with LCD and Plasma for years. This is not a ramp up, but a still in developement technology. :1:


BTW if by guns you are talking about Tubes I have had three RPTVS with three tubes each.
And I DONT MISS THE CONSTANT TWEAKING, BURN IN, and dim picture.

Your RPTV's had low quality 7" tubes, not 9". Secondly you did not properly calibrate it just like you haven't done your plasma, because a properly calibrated display device will never suffer from burn in. The contrast level is too low for it to occur.

I do not have to constantly tweak either of my devices. Once a year major maintainence, and a single push of a button each month keeps both of my devices up to SMPTE standards. Nobody is stupid here, you cannot have burn in and a dim picture. In order to get burn in, your contrast would have to be turned up to the torch mode, which would make the picture VERY bright! :1:


To each his own true, but your setup is extreme, an anal reteentive control freaks dream, and everybody elses nightmare

Maybe, but it is a videophiles delight. My setup is extreme only to those who are cheap, worry about display size, how much room it takes up, whether or not you can watch it in bright light(of which no one recommends), and somebody who has no experience with the technology. That would be you pixelcheapy I think your setup is cheap, poorly maintained(because it has not been calibrated) and of low quality.:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Ssssshhhh! "The Oracle" speaks!

Ears perked!


I have a question for you "Sir T", or anyone else willing to chime in......

So, if I implement the 5.1/7.1 analogue inputs for audio from my BD-P1200, what will be the most I will get from it if the blu ray dvd encoded with TDHD or DTS-HD or even DTS HD- MA?!

I do not know if Samsung issued a firmware upgrade to support DTHD, but I know it cannot stream it. It does not do Dts MA lossless at all. PCM, DD and core Dts is about all you can expect from this player unless Samsung issued an upgrade to include DTHD support.


Can any of these formats be converted to analogue therefore allowing for the playback of the higher bitrate? I hope I articulated this question correctly. I'm still trying to thoroughly understand all of this stuff. I guess the appropriate question should be, what's the most I can get from a TDHD, DTS-HD/MA encoded disc if I connect my BD-P1200 via the 5.1 analogue connection?!

Thanks!

The answer to this question is a resounding no. Most soundtracks are recorded and mastered to 48khz, so you are not going to get any more resolution than that.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think by the time this thread dies Blu-ray player sales will be back up again. :rolleyes:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think by the time this thread dies Blu-ray player sales will be back up again. :rolleyes:

Oh dry up Rich boy!!:ciappa:

[ldgibson76]

I think by the time this thread dies Blu-ray player sales will be back up again. :rolleyes:

So Rich,

You have this all figured out, do ya?!:sosp:
I forgot, we all should be totally engrossed in the RX-V3800 thread! Or maybe the Emotiva LPA-1 thread! My bad!:idea:

Regards!

[Mr Peabody]

ldg, it is still worth using MC analog if you do not have a receiver that accepts PCM. The uncompressed audio from BR discs via MC analog are outstanding from the 1200. The disc has to have this uncompressed track available though. There is also a Dolby and DTS for Blu-ray that is better than the core which again you can take advantage of via MC analog where bitstream will only allow the core. This may help; http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_2.html

Kex, Sir T, this seems a logical explanation and it does look like BR is adding stuff to the disc all the time but they have yet to use the full 50 gb available haven't they?

If a soundtrack is Tru-HD and your machine won't decode it, it defaults to core? I guess it doesn't carry all 3 levels T-HD, then DD+, then last resort core.

[ldgibson76]

ldg, it is still worth using MC analog if you do not have a receiver that accepts PCM. The uncompressed audio from BR discs via MC analog are outstanding from the 1200. The disc has to have this uncompressed track available though. There is also a Dolby and DTS for Blu-ray that is better than the core which again you can take advantage of via MC analog where bitstream will only allow the core. This may help; http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_2.html

Kex, Sir T, this seems a logical explanation and it does look like BR is adding stuff to the disc all the time but they have yet to use the full 50 gb available haven't they?

If a soundtrack is Tru-HD and your machine won't decode it, it defaults to core? I guess it doesn't carry all 3 levels T-HD, then DD+, then last resort core.

Good lookin' out, "Mr.P." I was starting to become discouraged.:3:

[pixelthis]

=kexodusc]Not if the goal is to provide uncompressed audio sound tracks in the smallest file size possible. MP3 can't do that. Flac, DTS-HD MA etc can. That's why they use it.

THATS NOT THE GOAL, the goal is to provide the best sound, PERIOD.
MP3 provided a need when net speed was 56k.
But even then you could buy a CD with uncompressed audio.
No compression at all is the goal, no tinkering at all is the goal.
I would love an analog format with CD specs, without the records limitations.
Its doable but nobodies bothering



Storage size remains quite fixed for BluRay discs right now. Maybe in the future they'll expand disc capacity, but even if they do, there's no reason not to use a more efficient system. Especially if data transfer rates benefit.

Theres no reason to do one, first law of hi-fi (like with doctors) is to do no harm.
the audio path needs to be as simple as posible



BluRay wants to throw all sorts of useless extra features on the disc - interactive stuff, anti-piracy measures, and of course all those special features that people supposedly watch - who wouldn't want to miss guided tour of the assistant director's trailer and watch what the music composer has for breakfast? We should get into the habbit of using all the best technologies available together, not just going back to storage size.
I agree with you mostly except for the anti piracy stuff, this is absolutely essential.
Peeps deserve to get paid.
But I buy media to watch movies and listen to music.
Some are fascinated by the way a movie is made, I'm not, anymore than I AM
fascinated by the sausage making process.
And we should use the best tech only when its needed, like with DD for instance.
The lossless version is so much better:1:

[pixelthis]

=Sir Terrence the Terrible]It will not be a moot arguement until there are no more single or multi gun CRT's in existance. Hate to tell ya this, but there is perhaps ten to twenty times more CRT based televisions in the field than flat panels. They have been on the market for more than 50 years, and they are not going to disappear in five years. :1:

they are disapearing as fast as they can be replaced, everybody wants a sleek flat screen on the wall.
Any HDTV will not be a CRT, any front projector will not be a CRT.
You're like the guy who said the car wouldnt replace the horse the years after they started making model T's, just because they couldnt turn them out fast enough to replace all of the horses instantly, never mind the fact that everybody wanted one



Sorry Pixeliar, but there is NO LCD on the market that even comes close to 10,000:1, not even close. You are showing your gullibility be believing manufactuers claims. There is only one panel on the market right now that does, and it ain't a LCD panel at all. It is a $6000 50" plasma panel by Pioneer.


WELL then gosh darn it you need to sue the b###tARDS, with their claims of 50,000-1
contrast ratios.
I supposed you checked every one.
Well exzcuse mee if I CHOOSE TO BELEIVE SAMSUNG OR SONY instead of a crank living in a cave waiting for CRT to "come back"
Ever met Micheal Fremmer? He's waiting for the turntable to come back,you two
should get along swimingly


Sony just showed a $4000 11" OLED television, and there is another 20" model in developement by Sharp. They are still in the lab with this technology, and you are not going to see sizes that we see right now with LCD and Plasma for years. This is not a ramp up, but a still in developement technology. :1:


Not really, LCD was around a long time before it took off, but it had problems, a lot dealing with backlights.
OLED makes their own light, hence their size, .17 thick.
ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS GET ECONOMIES OF scale, and that wont take long at all.
the main problem with OLED was longetivity, and everybodies agreeing that that little problem has been solved



Your RPTV's had low quality 7" tubes, not 9". Secondly you did not properly calibrate it just like you haven't done your plasma, because a properly calibrated display device will never suffer from burn in. The contrast level is too low for it to occur.

Seven inch tubes do not equate with "low quality", in fact they are the industry standard (or were when there was an industry)
Saying 9" tubes are the only good ones is like saying a ferrari is the only decent car.
I have had two sony XBR'S hardly "low quality", and a mitshu, panny, and samsung rptv,
none of which are known for their "low q".
AND in spite of keeping both my contrast and brightness below 50, and only watching stuff like fox news on another set, burn in did occure with my panny.
ANOTHER CASE OF YOU NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT



I do not have to constantly tweak either of my devices. Once a year major maintainence, and a single push of a button each month keeps both of my devices up to SMPTE standards. Nobody is stupid here, you cannot have burn in and a dim picture. In order to get burn in, your contrast would have to be turned up to the torch mode, which would make the picture VERY bright! :1:

Which is what I thought.
LETS FACE IT, YOU NEVER WATCH ANYTHING BUT MOVIES (and a lot of porn) on your tvs.
But sooner or later burn in will occure, you cant produce the 2500 lumens you claim without serious light output from your antiques, simple as that



Maybe, but it is a videophiles delight. My setup is extreme only to those who are cheap, worry about display size, how much room it takes up, whether or not you can watch it in bright light(of which no one recommends), and somebody who has no experience with the technology. That would be you pixelcheapy I think your setup is cheap, poorly maintained(because it has not been calibrated) and of low quality.:1:[

You're setup is extreme to those in the mental health industry familiar with obsessive
compulsive disorder.
And I HAVE HAD FOUR decades "experience" with this tech.
I have been using CRT since it was black and white.
IN ELECTRONICS CLASS I TOOK SETS APART AND PUT THEM BACK TOGETHER.
True some of my knowledge is a bit dated but the same principles apply .
I have a five hundred dollar remote, yeah, thats "cheap".
But you see, I didnt make a fortune "installing" obsolete gear and car alarms, and
pretending to be an industry "expert" . :1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

So Rich,

You have this all figured out, do ya?!:sosp:
Sure I do "Idgibson". It's easy. Buy a PS3. What the PS3 can't handle, my RX-V3800 will. And with my Emotiva LPA-1 attached, the sound that reaches my ears will be just glorious! The net effect to the industry... Blu-ray player sales will increase.

I forgot, we all should be totally engrossed in the RX-V3800 thread! Or maybe the Emotiva LPA-1 thread! My bad!:idea:

Regards!
Come on over and join the fun! Maybe you'll learn something. :lol:

[ldgibson76]

Sure I do "Idgibson". It's easy. Buy a PS3. What the PS3 can't handle, my RX-V3800 will. And with my Emotiva LPA-1 attached, the sound that reaches my ears will be just glorious! The net effect to the industry... Blu-ray player sales will increase.

Come on over and join the fun! Maybe you'll learn something. :lol:

"Touche" Rich! And Boooooo! to the PS3! :prrr: The only reasons why I would ever, and I mean ever buy one, is if it was a deal I couldn't pass up and I had a serious desire for gaming!
I admit, it's an impressive machine, but allowing a gaming system to be the main source for video, does nothing for me! Not yet anyway. But I may change my/that opinion if Sony creates a more refined product. Just my opinion.

So I see you came to the conclusion that the amps within the Yammy was not sufficient enough for your large listening area! Adding the LPA-1 made that much of a difference, did it?!

By the way, are you reading the exchanges between "Pixel" and "Sir T"?!
Those guys are nuts!:out: I must admit, Pixel's last response was pretty entertaining!

Regards.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

they are disapearing as fast as they can be replaced, everybody wants a sleek flat screen on the wall.
Any HDTV will not be a CRT, any front projector will not be a CRT.
You're like the guy who said the car wouldnt replace the horse the years after they started making model T's, just because they couldnt turn them out fast enough to replace all of the horses instantly, never mind the fact that everybody wanted one

Use what little brain you have stupid. Every television from the late forties when broadcast began, to about 2003 the CRT has been sold all over the world. You are not going to erase more than fifty years of purchases in just 5 years. Get real:rolleyes:


WELL then gosh darn it you need to sue the b###tARDS, with their claims of 50,000-1
contrast ratios.
I supposed you checked every one.

My contrast ratio's have been measured using Joe Kane process of measureing. They are actually accurate. I wouldn't need to check everyone. The fact that the Kuro's broke through 10,000:1 was big news everywhere. The Panasonic Digital Facility HAS measured just about every LCD and Plasma on the market using Joe Kane measuring process. I have the test report on my computer. About 95% of both Plasmas and LCD landed between 1000:1 and 5000:1. JVC's RSP1 did projector did 8000:1, and that is the one of the better measurement from the report.


Well exzcuse mee if I CHOOSE TO BELEIVE SAMSUNG OR SONY instead of a crank living in a cave waiting for CRT to "come back"

I do not believe I said I was waiting for CRT to come back. I have stated over and over that what I own which is CRT based is better than what is out there, and until that changes, I will keep my CRT based display devices. That does not sound like anyone waiting for anything. How you got that out of my post is beyond me, but of course you have a history of making up $hit and pulling abstract $hit out of your a$$.

You are more foolish and stupid than I thought if you believe what the marketing departments of ANY CE company says about contrast ratios.


Ever met Micheal Fremmer? He's waiting for the turntable to come back,you two
should get along swimingly

I have no love for turntables, so why would we get along? This is like saying just because I like salad that I would get along with a vegan. :rolleyes:



Not really, LCD was around a long time before it took off, but it had problems, a lot dealing with backlights.

The technology may have been around a while, but to the ordinary consumer it is only about 3-4 years old, because that is when they dropped in price so the average consumer could afford it


OLED makes their own light, hence their size, .17 thick.
ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS GET ECONOMIES OF scale, and that wont take long at all.
the main problem with OLED was longetivity, and everybodies agreeing that that little problem has been solved

There is no product on the market right now, its only in Japan. So all of this is moot.


Seven inch tubes do not equate with "low quality", in fact they are the industry standard (or were when there was an industry)
Saying 9" tubes are the only good ones is like saying a ferrari is the only decent car.

7" tubes only get you 480p, and with a quality guns and a VERY good video processor maybe 720p on a smaller screen. 9" guns give you 1080p(and some) on both a RPTV's and front projectors. You must have been in the industry a loooooong time ago, because just about every 1080i based CRT was at least 8". When you compare the performance of 7" tubes versus 9" tubes, the 7" are low quality in comparison.


I have had two sony XBR'S hardly "low quality", and a mitshu, panny, and samsung rptv,
none of which are known for their "low q".
AND in spite of keeping both my contrast and brightness below 50, and only watching stuff like fox news on another set, burn in did occure with my panny.
ANOTHER CASE OF YOU NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

You are a lying mofo old man. Anyone that has had ten second of education with CRT's knows that if you keep your contrast and brightness at correct calibrated levels, burn in is virtually IMPOSSIBLE!!!! If anything it takes so long to happen, the electronics would have likely given out before the tubes burn in. If what you say is true, then my own CRT's would suffer the same issue. It ain't happening! Your tendencies to go completely overboard and exaggerate just makes your points less credible, and shows that you are not a schooled as you would like everyone to believe.





Which is what I thought.
LETS FACE IT, YOU NEVER WATCH ANYTHING BUT MOVIES (and a lot of porn) on your tvs.

What a freakin stupid statement. Stupid cheap a$$ hicks are not allowed in my house, so how would you know what I watch?


But sooner or later burn in will occure, you cant produce the 2500 lumens you claim without serious light output from your antiques, simple as that

It didn't happen on my first RPTV. It did not happen on my first projector. It hasn't happened on any television set I owned. It does occur over time, but with proper calibration, it won't happen for decades. My grandmothers RCA has no sign of burn in, and its 30 years old. I never said that either of my sets could do 2500 lumens. My G-90 can easily do its 1300 lumens



You're setup is extreme to those in the mental health industry familiar with obsessive
compulsive disorder.

More jealousy and envy. Sounds like you wish you had my setup. And this coming from someone with a cheap a$$ uncalibrated set. You are so low tech that I take this as a compliment. :1:


And I HAVE HAD FOUR decades "experience" with this tech.
I have been using CRT since it was black and white.
IN ELECTRONICS CLASS I TOOK SETS APART AND PUT THEM BACK TOGETHER.

Your experience is based on single gun CRT, and old school ones at that. You have ZERO experience with three gun RPTV's and projection sets. Yet, you continally make inaccurate statments regarding the latter, because you only have experience with the former.


True some of my knowledge is a bit dated but the same principles apply .
I have a five hundred dollar remote, yeah, thats "cheap".
But you see, I didnt make a fortune "installing" obsolete gear and car alarms, and
pretending to be an industry "expert" . :1:

Not only are you cheap, but you dumb as hell as well. Why buy a remote that cost almost as much as the your set? I would have bought a better panel and a cheaper remote. Didn't you say you have priorities? Maybe not :1:

ALOT of your knowledge is dated. Knowing how to pull television apart is nothing. Obviously there are some folks out there that do not know how to do this, but know how to calibrate, get excellent images from their display. They know the proper environment to watch movies, and when they put that together, your forty years does not seem so significant. Time and time again I have said this to you; knowing one side of the equation without the other side means you don't know the equation. You may know how to pull sets apart and put them together, but you do not know how to calibrate them, and what environments get the best picture. Unless you are a repairman, knowing how to pull a single gun CRT apart and put them back together is useless information, as you have said, they are old technology:1:

I cannot believe you have been around this technology for 40 years and do not know more than you do. Then on the other hand you are past 50 years old and behave like a stubborn petulant kid. Some folks never outgrow their immature tendencies.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"Touche" Rich! And Boooooo! to the PS3! :prrr: The only reasons why I would ever, and I mean ever buy one, is if it was a deal I couldn't pass up and I had a serious desire for gaming!
I admit, it's an impressive machine, but allowing a gaming system to be the main source for video, does nothing for me! Not yet anyway. But I may change my/that opinion if Sony creates a more refined product. Just my opinion.

Dude, you need to get over this bruh. The PS3 is not just a gaming machine. It is a multimedia machine that does alot more than just games. It decimates DSD at the highest level I have seen on any DVD/SACD combo player.(176.4khz versus the typical 96khz). It upconverts CD's to 176.4khz sample rate. It decodes ALL of the advance audio codecs with the lowest error rate than ANY bluray player on the market. You can stream audio and video from the internet to your hometheater system, plus its a gaming platform. It has never had trouble with BD-j, loads faster than standalones players, and has never frozen on any disc I have put into it. This machine does so many things well, that it effectively erases the snob factor. I never thought I would have one, and now I will kill you if you try and take it. :D



By the way, are you reading the exchanges between "Pixel" and "Sir T"?!
Those guys are nuts!:out: I must admit, Pixel's last response was pretty entertaining!

Regards.

He quit reading after the second post. He gets his servants to read the rest for him:devil:

[Rich-n-Texas]

idgibson76, Mr. T works for Sony so you might as well get used to the constant PS3 promo's. :ihih:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

idgibson76, Mr. T works for Sony so you might as well get used to the constant PS3 promo's. :ihih:

Dang it Rich boy, I told you not to tell!!!:incazzato: For this, you have to eat soy meat for a month. Let's just see how a beef eatin Rich Texas type can survive on that!:prrr:

[Mr Peabody]

Pix if they made an analog source with CD specs it would be like mp3 is to CD. I guess it depends on what specs you refer to, CD has an advantage in signal to noise and dynamic range but vinyl wins in frequency response and amount of possible information, I mean, no matter how much sampling you do it ain't 100% like analog.

This is for anyone who hasn't been to my BR audio thread, check this out:
http://www.d-box.com/2008/

In a few years it won't be "home theater" it will be "holo theater"

[hermanv]

I think analog master tapes are probably among the "best" signal sources.

However there were very good reasons why the open reel tape decks had a short consumer life.

[Mr Peabody]

In the late 80's the store I worked at sold Sharp, their rep was telling us then about LCD they were going to come out with, it took so long for LCD to hit the market I long since thought that guy was full of it.

I think "burn in" either happened in cheap sets or in extreme situations. I know it has happened. My first Pioneer RPTV I bought in the mid 90's and some of my family is still using it, never suffered "burn in". I mention this because I am one who will abuse the contrast control. One case of the "burn in" happened to a guy who watched this same channel all the time and they kept their logo in the corner of the screen a lot. I can't remember what brand of TV he had, I'm thinking RCA.

[Groundbeef]

Dude, you need to get over this bruh. The PS3 is not just a gaming machine. It is a multimedia machine that does alot more than just games. It decimates DSD at the highest level I have seen on any DVD/SACD combo player.(176.4khz versus the typical 96khz). It upconverts CD's to 176.4khz sample rate. It decodes ALL of the advance audio codecs with the lowest error rate than ANY bluray player on the market. You can stream audio and video from the internet to your hometheater system, plus its a gaming platform. It has never had trouble with BD-j, loads faster than standalones players, and has never frozen on any disc I have put into it. This machine does so many things well, that it effectively erases the snob factor. I never thought I would have one, and now I will kill you if you try and take it. :D
:


Not to mention that Sir T is a "l33t" playa, and will totally pwn u in COD4. Or any other game in his massive game library. Most of his gear is paid for by corporate sponsers.

Plus, there is now a 'mod' kit that allows the PS3 to cook pannini sandwiches. Sort of like a George Forman, except instead of grill marks on the bread, a PS3 logo is seared into it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

In the late 80's the store I worked at sold Sharp, their rep was telling us then about LCD they were going to come out with, it took so long for LCD to hit the market I long since thought that guy was full of it.

When I first heard of flat panel, I was still in college. It was at CES in 1996 when I actually saw the first proto type. It was about $40,000 dollars.

I think "burn in" either happened in cheap sets or in extreme situations. I know it has happened. My first Pioneer RPTV I bought in the mid 90's and some of my family is still using it, never suffered "burn in". I mention this because I am one who will abuse the contrast control. One case of the "burn in" happened to a guy who watched this same channel all the time and they kept their logo in the corner of the screen a lot. I can't remember what brand of TV he had, I'm thinking RCA.[/QUOTE]

I have seen burn in, but it was on a old television with the contrast pushed above 90. And you are right, it was a logo that was burned in. My brother has a 20 year old Toshiba CRT direct view. Never had the contrast above 50, and his television does not suffer burn in. It is the high contrast and static images that cause burn in. Keep the contrast down(and the set properly calibrated) and burn in will not occur.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Not to mention that Sir T is a "l33t" playa, and will totally pwn u in COD4. Or any other game in his massive game library. Most of his gear is paid for by corporate sponsers.

:3:


Plus, there is now a 'mod' kit that allows the PS3 to cook pannini sandwiches. Sort of like a George Forman, except instead of grill marks on the bread, a PS3 logo is seared into it.

It does bacon and eggs too. :yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

:3:
:Yawn: Give me about say... 20 minutes with COD4 and I'll pwn YOU knucklehead! :rolleyes:


It does bacon and eggs too. :yesnod:
With, or without the mod?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

:Yawn: Give me about say... 20 minutes with COD4 and I'll pwn YOU knucklehead! :rolleyes:

Oh no you dent say this:incazzato:



With, or without the mod?

scrambling and sunny side up without, hard boiling with. :cornut:

[Smokey]

The PS3 is not just a gaming machine. It is a multimedia machine that does alot more than just games. It decimates DSD at the highest level I have seen on any DVD/SACD combo player.(176.4khz versus the typical 96khz). It upconverts CD's to 176.4khz sample rate.


Is there any benefits by upsampling CD to 176.4khz sampling rate since CD's original sample rate is 44khz. Can we do better than what the source is?

[Mr Peabody]

Here's an upcoming Pioneer BDP. They promise a DTS-MA firmware upgrade but ethernet isn't a feature. Maybe they will send a disc to those who register.
http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.php?id=71&show=specs

[pixelthis]

Pix if they made an analog source with CD specs it would be like mp3 is to CD. I guess it depends on what specs you refer to, CD has an advantage in signal to noise and dynamic range but vinyl wins in frequency response and amount of possible information, I mean, no matter how much sampling you do it ain't 100% like analog.

This is for anyone who hasn't been to my BR audio thread, check this out:
http://www.d-box.com/2008/

In a few years it won't be "home theater" it will be "holo theater"

DIGITAL media has an inherent advantage, in the analog/digital comversion
any noise is left behind.
But there is no reason you couldn't have an analog format with none of the disadvantages
of records, narrow dynamic range, surface noise, etc.
It just seems like all things analog have been deeded to vinyl.
And why?
If the D/A conversion is what turntable lovers are hatin, why not an analog low noise source? :1:

[pixelthis]

Use what little brain you have stupid. Every television from the late forties when broadcast began, to about 2003 the CRT has been sold all over the world. You are not going to erase more than fifty years of purchases in just 5 years. Get real:rolleyes:


You go by tube life, ninny.
All of those sets you talk about are mostly gone, the only ones in use are current gen, and they are being replaced by other than CRT tech.
You cant find a serious crt in the stores, in a few years you wont find any in
five no one will have one except for atavistic types like yourself



My contrast ratio's have been measured using Joe Kane process of measureing. They are actually accurate. I wouldn't need to check everyone. The fact that the Kuro's broke through 10,000:1 was big news everywhere. The Panasonic Digital Facility HAS measured just about every LCD and Plasma on the market using Joe Kane measuring process. I have the test report on my computer. About 95% of both Plasmas and LCD landed between 1000:1 and 5000:1. JVC's RSP1 did projector did 8000:1, and that is the one of the better measurement from the report.

Which isnt far off from yours



I do not believe I said I was waiting for CRT to come back. I have stated over and over that what I own which is CRT based is better than what is out there, and until that changes, I will keep my CRT based display devices. That does not sound like anyone waiting for anything. How you got that out of my post is beyond me, but of course you have a history of making up $hit and pulling abstract $hit out of your a$$.

In other words you are wasting your time on something that is GONE


You are more foolish and stupid than I thought if you believe what the marketing departments of ANY CE company says about contrast ratios.

I would be foolish to beleive anything YOU said about contrast ratios



I have no love for turntables, so why would we get along? This is like saying just because I like salad that I would get along with a vegan. :rolleyes:

You're lack of comprehension of even the simplist ideas astounds me




The technology may have been around a while, but to the ordinary consumer it is only about 3-4 years old, because that is when they dropped in price so the average consumer could afford it

I had a portable LCD 15 years ago, talk about pullin stuff outta your arse


There is no product on the market right now, its only in Japan. So all of this is moot.
Sony is selling an 11" tabletop OLED. Sure its expensive now but not long ago
an 15" LCD cost two grand



7" tubes only get you 480p, and with a quality guns and a VERY good video processor maybe 720p on a smaller screen. 9" guns give you 1080p(and some) on both a RPTV's and front projectors. You must have been in the industry a loooooong time ago, because just about every 1080i based CRT was at least 8". When you compare the performance of 7" tubes versus 9" tubes, the 7" are low quality in comparison.

The seven in tubes on my panny and samsung rendered 1080i quite nicely.
Of course 9" tubes are better than 7", DUH.
But 9" were so expensive they were rarely used.
You dont base everyday autos on the performance of a corvette, and you dont base the performance of 7" crts on 9" tubes that were rarely used



You are a lying mofo old man. Anyone that has had ten second of education with CRT's knows that if you keep your contrast and brightness at correct calibrated levels, burn in is virtually IMPOSSIBLE!!!! If anything it takes so long to happen, the electronics would have likely given out before the tubes burn in. If what you say is true, then my own CRT's would suffer the same issue. It ain't happening! Your tendencies to go completely overboard and exaggerate just makes your points less credible, and shows that you are not a schooled as you would like everyone to believe.

The burn in was slight but starting to appear when I sold my set, a 47" Panny.
Early HD RPTV had serious burn in issues because of the dimness inherent in
HD crt's, the brightness had to be boosted just to see the things.
There was burn-in even with the contrast/brightness turned waaay down.
The reason your own CRT'S dont have serious issues is probably because you only use them for movies, and run them so low. But burn in WILL occure.
AND YOU KNOW IT





What a freakin stupid statement. Stupid cheap a$$ hicks are not allowed in my house, so how would you know what I watch?

NOTHING WITH A STATIC IMAGE OR YOU WOULD BE HAVING SERIOUS BURN-IN ISSUES



It didn't happen on my first RPTV. It did not happen on my first projector. It hasn't happened on any television set I owned. It does occur over time, but with proper calibration, it won't happen for decades. My grandmothers RCA has no sign of burn in, and its 30 years old. I never said that either of my sets could do 2500 lumens. My G-90 can easily do its 1300 lumens

YOU ACTUALLY SAID THAT SEVERAL TIMES, and you call me
a liar. And I bet you grandma watches that set at least an hour a day, not that I care



More jealousy and envy. Sounds like you wish you had my setup. And this coming from someone with a cheap a$$ uncalibrated set. You are so low tech that I take this as a compliment. :1:

I will be watching my "cheap ass set" long after yours is trashed



Your experience is based on single gun CRT, and old school ones at that. You have ZERO experience with three gun RPTV's and projection sets. Yet, you continally make inaccurate statments regarding the latter, because you only have experience with the former.

You arent listening (but then again you NEVER do) I have had THREE RPTVS.
used to go to a site that had a lot of good info about getting into the service menu, etc.



Not only are you cheap, but you dumb as hell as well. Why buy a remote that cost almost as much as the your set? I would have bought a better panel and a cheaper remote. Didn't you say you have priorities? Maybe not :1:

A DECENT REMOTE IS THE MOST important part of your system, and you are an "installer"? AND YOU DONT KNOW THAT?
A decent remote is teh difference between a "system" and a collection of uncoordinated junk


ALOT of your knowledge is dated. Knowing how to pull television apart is nothing. Obviously there are some folks out there that do not know how to do this, but know how to calibrate, get excellent images from their display. They know the proper environment to watch movies, and when they put that together, your forty years does not seem so significant. Time and time again I have said this to you; knowing one side of the equation without the other side means you don't know the equation. You may know how to pull sets apart and put them together, but you do not know how to calibrate them, and what environments get the best picture. Unless you are a repairman, knowing how to pull a single gun CRT apart and put them back together is useless information, as you have said, they are old technology:1:

Aint it the truth, thanks for conceding my point :1:



I cannot believe you have been around this technology for 40 years and do not know more than you do. Then on the other hand you are past 50 years old and behave like a stubborn petulant kid. Some folks never outgrow their immature tendencies.[/QUOTE]

Describes you to a tee