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kexodusc
04-29-2008, 06:17 AM
Oh dear, look what I found. Let's see what's inside

3576

Oh...another box :skep:

3577

Wow. That is big and heavy...:shocked:

3579

All seems to be in order...:idea:

3580

An Adcom GFA-535 and AudioSource Amp One for size comparison. :eek6:

3581

Sadly, after my 2006 Christmas present fell into the Atlantic Ocean, I'm still the only one I know without a digital camera. By coincidence my wife's friend was at our place with hers last night. I took a few pics. Obviously I'm no photographer...

GMichael
04-29-2008, 06:23 AM
You dog you. You pulled that trigger huh?
It looks like a beast. How long until we see a review?

L.J.
04-29-2008, 07:12 AM
Great now were never gonna hear the end of it. GM perhaps you should put a link directly to Emotiva in your sig.


**puts on flamesuit**

GMichael
04-29-2008, 07:36 AM
Great now were never gonna hear the end of it. GM perhaps you should put a link directly to Emotiva in your sig.


**puts on flamesuit**

That depends on if Kex ends up liking it.

(torch lit!)

f0rge
04-29-2008, 11:50 AM
wow i just looked that up and it seems like a steal for the price they're asking

kex did you buy direct from the site? what was the duty like?

kexodusc
04-29-2008, 02:22 PM
wow i just looked that up and it seems like a steal for the price they're asking

kex did you buy direct from the site? what was the duty like?
Yeah, direct from them...Duty, well, I still don't know for sure yet, Fed Ex will send me a bill for all that later on. On amplifiers the duty is 6.5% of the value (in Canadian dollars). Probably about $30 or so. Sucks, but audio gear in Canada isn't fairly priced yet anyway so it's not really a factor in the decision.

kexodusc
04-29-2008, 03:54 PM
That depends on if Kex ends up liking it.

(torch lit!)

You dog you. You pulled that trigger huh?
It looks like a beast. How long until we see a review?
I had hoped to have one already to go. But I didn't get as much time to play with it as I would have liked. Spent most of last night trying to figure out why it kept switching to protection mode.

After a few hours of isolating channels and switching speaker wire and interconnects through countless permutations, I discovered that moving interconnects around would move the channels that faulted. Turns out my brand new Monster Interconnects had continuity between the R and L cables. That's not suppose to happen. Swapping with another pair of interconnects made the problem vanish.

I've never heard of such a thing and I'm beyond disgusted that Monster could sell cables over $50 retail that allowed the two channels to touch somewhere.

I almost thought the amp was the problem and was ready to call.

Anyway, been spending some quality time with a functional amp this evening...so far...sor good. :thumbsup:

Rich-n-Texas
04-29-2008, 04:52 PM
Nice catch Kex. Nice purchase too. I remember in another topic you mentioned the type of music you listen to; similar to my tastes in many ways (especially the Pink Floyd aspect) so I'll also be interested in hearing what you've got to say about the LPA-1.

P.S. That outer box is scary looking. :sosp:

GMichael
04-30-2008, 05:15 AM
I had hoped to have one already to go. But I didn't get as much time to play with it as I would have liked. Spent most of last night trying to figure out why it kept switching to protection mode.

After a few hours of isolating channels and switching speaker wire and interconnects through countless permutations, I discovered that moving interconnects around would move the channels that faulted. Turns out my brand new Monster Interconnects had continuity between the R and L cables. That's not suppose to happen. Swapping with another pair of interconnects made the problem vanish.

I've never heard of such a thing and I'm beyond disgusted that Monster could sell cables over $50 retail that allowed the two channels to touch somewhere.

I almost thought the amp was the problem and was ready to call.

Anyway, been spending some quality time with a functional amp this evening...so far...sor good. :thumbsup:

Sorry to read about your cable issue. Good job catching it. Do you think that had anything to do with your last amp crapping out on you?
Good luck with your new toy. Hope you have many years of happiness together. And don't forget that review. The rest of us cheap a$$'s need to know how good this thing is.

kexodusc
04-30-2008, 05:46 AM
Sorry to read about your cable issue. Good job catching it. Do you think that had anything to do with your last amp crapping out on you?
Good luck with your new toy. Hope you have many years of happiness together. And don't forget that review. The rest of us cheap a$$'s need to know how good this thing is.
No chance it hurt the other amp - I hadn't used these cables yet, they were fresh out of a package!!! I bought them at the boxing week super sale FuturShop had for $6 or something foolish with some other cables I still haven't bothered to use. I do recall they were over $50 MSRP. Turns out I still overpaid.

I dunno how it trips the protection circuitry though, I wouldn't think the low level voltage via pre-outs would screw anything up terribly but maybe there's some extra safe protection circuitry in the amp. Actually, that's a pretty cool feature to have I guess.

f0rge
04-30-2008, 10:01 AM
you should try pulling them apart into 2 separate cables, with luck and some electrical tape you might be able to salvage them for use in lesser equipment.

kexodusc
04-30-2008, 10:13 AM
you should try pulling them apart into 2 separate cables, with luck and some electrical tape you might be able to salvage them for use in lesser equipment.

Yeah, I might. Or I might return them. Still have the bag and receipt and they have a 100% replacement warranty and since they're obviously faulty I shouldn't have any issues there.

Then again, I'm done with Monster now...

Rich-n-Texas
04-30-2008, 11:01 AM
you should try pulling them apart into 2 separate cables, with luck and some electrical tape you might be able to salvage them for use in lesser equipment.
If that happened to me, I'd be so pi$$ed off that not only would I return them, I'd also send a little note to Monster asking them to send me a customer satisfaction survey! :mad5:

Mr Peabody
04-30-2008, 08:14 PM
Kex, how bout a little sound quality review. Email Monster and tell them you had to buy a pair of Blue Jean because theirs were defective. Ask if that was part of the patent.

pixelthis
04-30-2008, 11:02 PM
If that happened to me, I'd be so pi$$ed off that not only would I return them, I'd also send a little note to Monster asking them to send me a customer satisfaction survey! :mad5:

That'll teach em!!!
Ohhhhh, you're so scary!
I bet the founder of monster is quaking in whichever of THREE theaters in his house that hes' in right now. :1:

kexodusc
05-01-2008, 03:33 AM
Kex, how bout a little sound quality review. Email Monster and tell them you had to buy a pair of Blue Jean because theirs were defective. Ask if that was part of the patent.
Heh heh heh...I'll tell them I picked Blue Jean Cables because I heard they were jacking Monster's patents so they must be of good quality. Actually, I'd hate to see them try and use that as evidence that BJC is infringing...
SQ review coming soon. I've been taking some notes. I'm doing a lot of a/b switching with some of my other amps. I'm hoping some a/b comparisons with amps I actually own might be of interest. I also don't want to rush to conclusions either so I'm listening to a variety of different sources.

They might as well have named it the Sherman though. I'm pretty sure it's made of the same stuff they use to make the "Black Box" in planes.

Rich-n-Texas
05-01-2008, 05:51 AM
That'll teach em!!!
Ohhhhh, you're so scary!
I bet the founder of monster is quaking in whichever of THREE theaters in his house that hes' in right now. :1:
I'll bet ya he'd be scared if I took the $80 HDMI Monster cable I bought over to his house and wrapped it around his NECK!!! And then took his three DLP projectors!

bobsticks
05-01-2008, 04:20 PM
Congrats Kex, this is just too sweet. I'l looking forward to hearing your impressions of the amp as I am completely without any knowledge of Emotiva---never even read a review. Hope it all works out.

pixelthis
05-01-2008, 09:39 PM
I'll bet ya he'd be scared if I took the $80 HDMI Monster cable I bought over to his house and wrapped it around his NECK!!! And then took his three DLP projectors!


Not really, he knows how that cable is made. :1:
(joke)
I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY problems with Monster, BTW :1:

kexodusc
05-02-2008, 03:03 PM
Well I've had some quality time with this thing.

Most notable observation: this amplifier can play LOUD. It's a very heavy, well built, little power plant. In the configuration I use it in, it is rated to deliver 125 watts x 5, plus 50 watts x 2, all channels driven simultaneously. That's got to be conservative.

Most of my listening has been done with my HT speakers - 2-way, bookshelf DIY speakers that use Peerless CSX woofers (which I noticed Totem still uses) and a bit with my Paradigm Studio 40 v.2 monitors (which the DIY's replaced). Didn't find subbing speakers changed impressions at all - with one exception below.

First night I spent mostly listening to acoustic music and female vocals - Allison Krauss on CD and SACD in particular. At one point my wife came down and told me to turn it down. I didn't think it was terribly loud, but when I checked my trusty SPL meter I was spiking over 94 dB and had an average volume in the low 80's, which really surprised me. It didnt' "seem" as loud because it sounded better. I've experienced this phenomenon before - when I changed a 40 watt NAD integrated with a beefier, 100 watt Rotel. I'm sure some of you have experienced something similar. To me it's a good sign when you can lose track of the loudness without your ears hurting or getting tired.

There's a certain element of grain or high end distortion I would normally experience after extended periods of time with my receiver at such volume levels (read "fatigue"), and even a bit with the Adcom GFA-535 or Rotel RB-980 amps I was using if I really pushed the volume. I'm pretty certain I can attribute this to extra headroom and the absence of clipping of various sorts. In fact, all week I've noticed myself pushing my system to new loudness levels - whether it be 2-channel listening or home theater - the amp handles it effortlessly and there's no sign of strain.

I've spent the last few days off work playing CD's, SACD's and DVD's and trying to get a feel for the comparative differences this unit has with some other amps I own. In terms of tonality, the amp is comparatively warmer sounding than the Adcoms and Rotels I've owned, and of course the Yamaha receiver. Not as warm as some amps I've owned and maybe a bit more neutral sounding than any NAD gear I've used. Actually, this is a bit of a change for me - I've always preferred "brighter" sounding gear I guess. A lot of tube amps and excessive warm gear just bore me. My hearing is fine, just my preference. This amp doesn't indulge in excessive brightness or warmth. That might turn off people in both camps.

I bought this to serve as a multichannel amp so I spent quite some time with Dolby Digital, DTS and hi-resolution multi-channel sources. It passes with flying colors in this role and has really added a new element to my SACD collection in particular. I notice a more spacious soundfield during movies, and a wider, deeper soundstage. And again, I find myself playing things louder without sign of fatigue. This thing loves to play multi-channel classical music on SACD's just so it can show off dynamic range. Mahler's 5th was on just a few minutes ago. I could see walkers in my neighborhood staring in my window probably wondering what the hell I was doing.

At more moderate levels I noticed channel separation seems to be notably improved, and I wasn't expecting that coming from 3 separate power amps. It has better specs than the amps I was using in the right areas, but I've noticed in the past that specs don't always equate to real world performance. This amp meets or exceeds expectations. Surround sound never sounded so good to me. I would not hesitate to recommend this amplifier to anyone looking for more power and better sound than what they can find in the $1000-$2000 receiver range.

What's really surprised me is how good it performs in stereo - this morning I brought up my RA-1070. I've been manually switching between a NAD 3020, my Rotel and Yamaha/LPA-1 combo. It's not a perfect a/b by any stretch but I know my system well and I'm comfortable I'm not imagining things. Despite there being only a 20 watt/channel difference, I can't say enough about the extra headroom this unit has over the integrated. My Rotel is no slouch, but it runs out of gas earlier. My home theater is in our family room, 20 x 24 feet approximately, and I sit about 10-11 feet from my speakers. If my stereo rig was in this room I might want more power, but it's in a much smaller room with more efficient speakers, so it's been more than adequate.

Not much to say about comparing it to the the NAD 3020. This Emo amp partnered with my receiver sound a lot better for most types of music. You name it, it's better. Wider soundstage, more focused imaging, clearer vocals, better bass response. And not just at louder volumes. There's nothing wrong with the NAD, it was serviced last year and is fine. It's just a 40 watt model and I think it's just over matched in my room once you start turning the volume up with any significance. I assume it's a power thing, or maybe the Yamaha has a better pre-amp section. Don't know, don't care, not going to dwell on it. Next.

Compared to the Rotel, bass sounds a bit more defined when using the LPA-1/Yammie combo, and the difference increases with volume. I can't really tell much difference for rock music, but acoustic bass in some jazz cd's I was playing is definitely a bit tighter and seems to have more precision. Some people might call it "fast" or under more control. I'm struggling for the words here. I want to explore this more with my 2-channel rig, in time. However, music through the Rotel does seem to be a tiny wee bit more lively, but the sound stage and and imaging are about the same. There's just a slight bit more character I notice on drums, particularly brushes and cymbals when using the Rotel. Not sure if it's "better", just different.

I actually lugged my towers upstairs yesterday to see how it would handle better speakers that are a tiny bit harder to drive (lower min impedance). I swear the male vocals on the Rotel are a bit closer to me than in the LPA-1. Not better or worse, but as I crank the volume it's like the Rotel pushes vocals foward, the LPA-1 keeps em centered. Anyone else ever notice anything like this? Rich's problems in his Yammie thread have me wondering if an impedance swing in the midrange could cause this? Thoughts? Never noticed it before.

Tear down and setup took about 45 minutes and a lot of grunting, so I'm not lugging speakers up and down stairs again.

Anyway. To make a short story long, I have no reservations saying this amp is better, and more practical solution than buying 3 separate used Rotel/Adcom/NAD stereo amps to connect to a receiver (like I was doing), and I can't imagine any typical $1000-$2000 receiver packing as much power and sound quality into the box. Does well in stereo mode! I'm really impressed with this thing so far. I know very little about the company other than they've been around for about 5 years or so now and seem to be following a similar path to Outlaw Audio (whom I've also had good experience with btw). But if the rest of the amps these guys make are worth their salt, I suspect we'll be hearing more from these guys. I'm seriously thinking about losing the Rotel and grabbing one of their 2-channel amps.

Bonus points for looking very cool and having hi-tech protection circuitry. There's no reason for amps to look ugly anymore. High WAF.

Edit: Oh yeah, this thing only costs $500 (plus shipping) with a 5 year warranty, if you're wonderin'...

bobsticks
05-02-2008, 03:43 PM
Great review Kex. I'm glad you're enjoying the new toy. I can relate to the part about an increase in volume without awareness. Same thing happened when I moved from the Rotel to the Mac...kinda funny when someones talking to you and ya just see lips flapping.

Good stuff. From where does the Emotiva originate?

kexodusc
05-02-2008, 04:17 PM
Great review Kex. I'm glad you're enjoying the new toy. I can relate to the part about an increase in volume without awareness. Same thing happened when I moved from the Rotel to the Mac...kinda funny when someones talking to you and ya just see lips flapping.

Good stuff. From where does the Emotiva originate?
Like all good companies these days, they are HQ'ed in Tennessee, designed in the USA and manufactured in China (oh the horror). Hence the low price.
Seeing a lot of this in the driver/speaker industry too - QC is handled by US engineering, but labor/production is exploite--err contracted at the going rate in China. You gotta think eventually the labor supply over there is going to become a bit more scarce..

Emotiva owns their manufacturing facilities and actually produce amps for some other high end audio companies in addition to the house brand "Emotiva".

A good friend of mine bought some gear from these guys not too long ago and fanboyed me into curiousity. A few of the members here have been eyeballing them too. With my Adcom dying and my need to buy some new gear HT room for the house we're building, I figured I'd be a guinea pig.

There's nothing cheap about this thing and a lot of excess has been engineered into it. It just looks and feels higher quality than my Rotel throughout. Not a Bryston or PS Audio, by any means but this sick value performer.

kexodusc
05-02-2008, 04:26 PM
The 6th/7th channels can be bridge to make another 125 watt channel that matches the other 5, but I run all 7. The manufacturer's rating for those channels is 50 watt x 2 (when all 7 channels are driven to max output at stated THD spec). In practice, I think this is a bit conservative.

For me, the reduced power hasn't been an issue, they have plenty of reserve power and I'm sure exceed that rating by quite a bit. I did a quick zone 2 test and they drove my speakers to to lead slap without any sign of compression or clipping. The 60 watt/channel GFA-535 has little distortion indicator lights that flare up a bit before getting that loud, and I know those amps were tested at well above 60 watt/channel. I know how people here value numbers so much, just want address any concerns people might have. I think there's more reserve power available to them than my 120 watt/channel receiver can deliver. Like I said...hasn't been an issue.

The model is getting a slight overhaul that will bump the power to 125 watts for all 7 channels instead of 50 x 2 for the 6th/7th channels. I was told this model is expected to jump $200 in price because production costs have increased...any fence sitters might want to act quickly.

bobsticks
05-02-2008, 04:43 PM
It's been a long time coming. I think we've all known that American/Canadian/Euro design and Far East manufacturing can work, it's good to see an instance in which it does work.
I've been researching external DACS and inevitably the conversation always comes down to this as the Chinese and Japanese are really pioneering the way into computer audio. Good to know the job can get done right.

I'm currently running my Mac bridged with excellent results for the two-channel scenario. I'm not sure if your bookshelves would really benifit from that increased current, but who knows, mebbe soon there'll be a wall of Emotivas at Chez Kex.

Peace

Mr Peabody
05-02-2008, 05:18 PM
Sounds like a good bang for the buck for sure. When you were comparing did you use the Yamaha receiver as preamp with all amps? Most of your review sounded real good the only point that gave me pause was when you thought the Rotel was a bit more lively. All the demos of Rotel always struck me as them being very laid back. So if the Emo is more so, it wouldn't be the amp for me.

Rich-n-Texas
05-02-2008, 05:59 PM
I don't recall the last time I was this focused on a discussion forum topic. I'm a few tequilla shots and such into my Friday night now but I have to say Kex that this amp is just what the doctor ordered. For a LOT of us. That aside, putting your thoughts out here is much appreciated.

What stuck out was...

I swear the male vocals on the Rotel are a bit closer to me than in the LPA-1. Not better or worse, but as I crank the volume it's like the Rotel pushes vocals foward, the LPA-1 keeps em centered.
After I set all speaker levels with the SPL meter and then played a DVD-A, the vocals were *in my face*, despite the fact that they'd loose volume. Maybe there would be a good compromise here for me with the Emotiva.

I have no reservations saying this amp is better, and more practical solution than buying 3 separate used Rotel/Adcom/NAD stereo amps to connect to a receiver (like I was doing), and I can't imagine any typical $1000-$2000 receiver packing as much power and sound quality into the box.
Bang for the buck, bang for the buck, bang for the buck... I'm all about bang for the buck! :yesnod:

I was told this model is expected to jump $200 in price because production costs have increased...any fence sitters might want to act quickly.
RIGHT! :mad5:

kexodusc
05-02-2008, 06:00 PM
Sounds like a good bang for the buck for sure. When you were comparing did you use the Yamaha receiver as preamp with all amps? Most of your review sounded real good the only point that gave me pause was when you thought the Rotel was a bit more lively. All the demos of Rotel always struck me as them being very laid back. So if the Emo is more so, it wouldn't be the amp for me.

Good point Mr. P - Yammie used as pre-pro with all amps, but when comparing the Rotel I kept the Emo plugged into the Yammie (mostly) instead of pluggin it into the Rotel, so there is the element of different pre-amps I guess. "Laid back" isn't how I'd describe my Rotel though it wasn't as in your face as the Adcoms. Lively might not have been the best word for me to use, but I struggle with using airy, sibilant or whatever other adjectives I could think of. It was as though a veil was lifte---never mind.

I think a lot of amp impressions have a big variable in them - speakers. Pretty sure the inductance, capacitance etc are a lot different from one model to the next so all bets are off on how an amp might respond. And one man's laid back is another's man's__________ .

This thing sounds surprisingly good, better than most would need for home theater. I could see a lot of people buying those mid-level $400-$500 receivers with pre-outs, some video switching, all the latest codecs, (Yamaha RX-V663, Denon AVR-1908, etc) and beefing them up with an amp like this for performance unheard of for $1000 or so and never looking back.

My Yamaha has a 500 watt power supply unit. The LPA-1 has a 1500 watt jobber in case you want to plug your dryer into it.

Rich-n-Texas
05-02-2008, 06:39 PM
...My Yamaha has a 500 watt power supply unit. The LPA-1 has a 1500 watt jobber in case you want to plug your dryer into it.
One word... :yikes:
Does it suck as much juice as a 1 ton compressor? :cryin:

L.J.
05-02-2008, 06:48 PM
Kex you da freakin' man. Thanks for the excellent review!

Mr Peabody
05-02-2008, 08:15 PM
You mean, does it suck as much juice out of the wall as Rich sucks out of his lime while shooting his tequilla.

kexodusc
05-03-2008, 02:38 AM
You mean, does it suck as much juice out of the wall as Rich sucks out of his lime while shooting his tequilla.
Bah dum bum! :9:

Rich-n-Texas
05-03-2008, 07:02 AM
You know how much limes cost 'round these parts nowadays Mr. P.? :nono:

GMichael
05-03-2008, 09:51 AM
Great review Kex!
I'm glad to see that you are happy with your new toy. Not only for your enjoyment, but also for my possible upgrade. It's good to see that this unit delivers so much for so little. If and when the time come that I can upgrade, I will not hisitate to jump on this model.
Thanks!
Now, go back and listen some more.:yesnod:

Mr Peabody
05-03-2008, 05:10 PM
You know how much limes cost 'round these parts nowadays Mr. P.? :nono:

How much? You go it straight? I can handle Tequilla in a Margarita but I tasted it straight a couple times and it didn't taste like something that humans should be putting in their mouth.

Well, back on track, sort of, anyone know when Emotiva will be putting out an updated processor? A place here in town says the Marantz stuff should be hitting in June.

kexodusc
05-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Well, back on track, sort of, anyone know when Emotiva will be putting out an updated processor? A place here in town says the Marantz stuff should be hitting in June.

A lot of companies, including some of the big receiver makers, are waiting on the latest Cirrus logic chip that's been delayed and has received some press in the audio world.
I think Marantz uses them too. Sometime this summer is my guess, probably July/August. Emotiva suggests it may be a bit earlier.

I think the big receiver companies will get the bulk of the first batch orders.

f0rge
05-05-2008, 06:03 AM
wow that's a really sweet review. almost makes me wish i would have swung for a cheaper receiver along with this amp instead of what i ended up getting. oh well i wanted to move away from seperates, so i'm sticking by my guns

Mr Peabody
05-05-2008, 07:17 AM
The Denon should have preamp outputs in case the urge to add a power amp should strike. That's all Kex did was add the amp to his existing receiver.

Rich-n-Texas
05-07-2008, 11:19 AM
Hello folks - just purchased my first Emotiva piece. Why? I gotta know if the if the reality matches the hype, to be honest. The last think I need is another amp http://s2.images.proboards.com/smiley.gif.
But if I only bought what I needed that'd be no fun. So I snarfed me one of the B-stock LPA-1 amps for my HT. Figure now's as good a time as any.

In my home theater I have a Yamaha receiver, that was connected to a couple of Adcom GFA-535 amps, and Rotel RB-950 and an AudioSource Amp One A (a little gem I found in a pawn shop that isn't out of place among the rest of my amps). I said "was connected" because I sold my Rotel last week to downsize my inventory for the impending residential move.

I have a NAD 3020 integrated, Rotel RA-1070 integrated (main stereo rig) and just sold a NAD 3140 recently as well. (My hobby is speaker building so these amps all get some use around the house)

One of my Adcom's died this weekend. Cost of repair more than I could buy one for used. http://s2.images.proboards.com/sad.gif
I'm no stranger to amps have also owned Marantz, Harman Kardon, and Arcam amps in the past.
Anyway, you guys seem pretty convinced by all this Emotiva stuff. A trusted friend of mine loves his Emo gear and I respect his opinion. Wish he lived closer so I could hear it for myself, but sometimes you gotta take a leap of faith. Guess we'll know soon enough.

Gotta say, the staff were friendly and helpful over the phone - I live in Canada but that was no problem. Big thanks to Jennifer and Cathy.

See ya around.

:ihih:

The bold text indicates spelling and grammar errors (Not a good first impression there buddy :biggrin5: )

Time to come clean Penguin guy... "So I snarfed me one of the B-stock LPA-1 amps for my HT."

If I understand my lingo correctly, B-stock means reconditioned. So you paid < $500 right? I read around on their site some and apparently there aren't any B-stock LPA-1's left, but the advertised price on it's profile page says $500. so is that the price for a brand new one?

<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

kexodusc
05-07-2008, 11:31 AM
If I understand my lingo correctly, B-stock means reconditioned. So you paid < $500 right? I read around on their site some and apparently there aren't any B-stock LPA-1's left, but the advertised price on it's profile page says $500. so is that the price for a brand new one?



$499 brand new. I miracled myself into a slightly better deal with a B-stock unit, merely as a function of good/bad timing. I'll fess up now, I was eyeballing the thing for awhile, but the amp dying pushed me to shop. The B-stock sale prompted me to buy now, rather than later.

B-stock can mean anything from repaired to returned to scratch and dent, etc. I've bought most of my gear as B-stock, floor demo, or used.

In this case I saved $100 off the retail price, but it comes with the very same 5-year warranty.

It came out of the box, clean, polished, no sign of prior use and not a scratch on it. If there's a b-stock sale again (or for any product from a reputable vendor) I say jump on it.

GMichael
05-07-2008, 12:17 PM
Link. I need a link!

Rich-n-Texas
05-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Welp, that puts it at the same price as the PS3 in June. Should I start another thread entitled: LPA-1 vs PS3 - Which would YOU buy?

The only problem I see with that amp is the fact that it weighs a hefty 63 lbs. so it would have to go on the bottom shelf of my audio cabinet, behind the door. That's okay though... it is RATHER ugly. :smilewinkgrin:

Rich-n-Texas
05-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Link. I need a link!
What? :devil:

GMichael
05-07-2008, 12:29 PM
What? :devil:

LINK?!

Rich-n-Texas
05-07-2008, 12:31 PM
Oh. Okay. Sorry.

L.J.
05-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Rich you tracking people down now. And correcting their spelling. This is why I go with different screen names now.

BTW, the sales over.

kexodusc
05-07-2008, 01:35 PM
Welp, that puts it at the same price as the PS3 in June. Should I start another thread entitled: LPA-1 vs PS3 - Which would YOU buy?
Depends on priority. I intend to own both by August.


The only problem I see with that amp is the fact that it weighs a hefty 63 lbs. so it would have to go on the bottom shelf of my audio cabinet, behind the door. That's okay though... it is RATHER ugly. :smilewinkgrin:
I actually put it on the 3rd shelf of my rack. After a few hours I noticed the shelf leaning a bit. Half way through the night I woke up all nervous it would crush my XBox 360 and cable box and put it on the bottom shelf.

It is heavy. It is nice.

Rich-n-Texas
05-07-2008, 01:53 PM
Did you get your link GM?

I actually put it on the 3rd shelf of my rack. After a few hours I noticed the shelf leaning a bit. Half way through the night I woke up all nervous it would crush my XBox 360 and cable box and put it on the bottom shelf
:lol: That's funny. I'd probably do the same thing.

Rich you tracking people down now.
I'm a cyberstalker. It's what I do. :rolleyes:

And correcting their spelling.
I didn't start it. Somebody else started it.

.This is why I go with different screen names now.
So exactly how long have you been going with different screen names L.J., PS, Lex, Edward/Hershon, DJ?

audio amateur
05-07-2008, 01:56 PM
After a few hours I noticed the shelf leaning a bit. Half way through the night I woke up all nervous it would crush my XBox 360 and cable box and put it on the bottom shelf.

It is heavy. It is nice.
haha sounds like me:)
I don't find it paritcularly ugly either.

kexodusc
05-07-2008, 02:17 PM
haha sounds like me:)
I don't find it paritcularly ugly either.

The online pics really don't do it justice. My wife always complimented the Rotel's clean, but reserved silver looks as being the least ugly of all my gear, but even she thinks the LPA-1 looks "ok". That's as good as I'll ever get from her.

Her least favorite is the BFD of course.

It's the best looking piece of electronics I've ever owned, mostly because it's not littered with logos and knobs, and doesn't try to be too much or a lifestyle piece. Less is more here.

The more I spend time with this thing, the more impressed I am. I cannot believe these guys can sell this thing for this cheap. Thank you China! I demoed a GFA-7607 a few years back and I'm glad I didn't pay $1500 for it then.

Mr Peabody
05-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Rich, I have two words for you, MASTERCARD, I guess that's actually one word isn't it, oh well, two syllables

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 03:38 AM
Rich, I have two words for you, MASTERCARD, I guess that's actually one word isn't it, oh well, two syllables
I HATE THIS WEBSITE!!! I hate it I hate it I hate it!!! :mad2:



:ihih:

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 03:43 AM
Rich, I have two words for you, MASTERCARD, I guess that's actually one word isn't it, oh well, two syllables
Heh heh...I financed a speaker purchase once back in college putting it on a Mastercard that I got on a 6 month no interest promo - then switched it to a competing Visa for no interest for a few months, then back to a Mastercard for a low intererest rate (zero was gone by then, they must have clued in). Got a few free T-shirts to boot!
I think by the end of it they paid me.
Then I did my very first credit score check and couldn't figure out why I most picnic tables had better Equifax scores than I did. :crazy:

L.J.
05-08-2008, 06:25 AM
Why not get the Emotiva first? Maybe your gonna loose out on that $499 price. PS3 is still a month away and it's not like it's gonna disappear. But the price for the Emotiva will :devil:

f0rge
05-08-2008, 06:30 AM
Why not get the Emotiva first? Maybe your gonna loose out on that $499 price. PS3 is still a month away and it's not like it's gonna disappear. But the price for the Emotiva will :devil:

if anything, the PS3 may drop in price by the summer...

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 06:40 AM
Why not get the Emotiva first? Maybe your gonna loose out on that $499 price. PS3 is still a month away and it's not like it's gonna disappear. But the price for the Emotiva will :devil:

The man makes some sense here, Rich. This is pretty much what I did. Pay $499 now or $699 later. Could even take advantage of the 30-day in home trial offer. Yeah, you have to pay shipping, but for that price you'll put to rest the nagging question of whether you need more power and higher quality amplification. Fed Ex ground to Texas I think is under $40. I've paid higher restocking fees on speakers. At least you'd know and could move on with life and the PS3 if you weren't happy.

GMichael
05-08-2008, 06:59 AM
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 07:56 AM
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
What he said!!! :mad5:

Nevertheless. I just called my credit card Co. and tried to get them to lower my APR; they didn't so I'm going to pull the trigger right now, then bounce my CC balance to the next CC that offers me 0% APR.

I swear L.J., I don't even know what you look like and I'm constantly taking your advice. WTF is it about you?!?!?! :incazzato:

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 09:26 AM
Done!

You people are going to drive me to the poor house!!! :cryin:

L.J.
05-08-2008, 09:35 AM
Done!

You people are going to drive me to the poor house!!! :cryin:

Dang that was quick :lol:

Congrats.....I hope to be next in line.


Now let's talk about that BFD for a second....JK

GMichael
05-08-2008, 09:42 AM
:cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin:

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 09:54 AM
What he said!!! :mad5:

Nevertheless. I just called my credit card Co. and tried to get them to lower my APR; they didn't so I'm going to pull the trigger right now, then bounce my CC balance to the next CC that offers me 0% APR.

I swear L.J., I don't even know what you look like and I'm constantly taking your advice. WTF is it about you?!?!?! :incazzato:
As a former broke college student who had all the scams figured out...a word of advice - read the fine print on 0% offers. Some of them charge you if you pay the balance off too fast! Go figure.

I think you're gonna like it. Word of advice - be careful - this thing can play loud.

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 10:10 AM
I hope I don't hurt my back bringing it in the door.:eek6:

It ships via FedEx which (knock wood) is a big relief.

SO, Kex, let's talk IC's. I know Monster's out, but a store I was in when trying to audition receivers has Tributaries. Subjective I agree, but how about some down-to-earth recs? And would this be a good time to look into power conditioners?

(Sorry all if I'm hijacking this thread. Not my intention to make it all about me).

P.S. Loud? Not a problem. It's what I want. I have some neighbors with noisy little lap dogs that I've been meaning to get even with. :devil:

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 10:32 AM
I hope I don't hurt my back bringing it in the door.:eek6:

It ships via FedEx which (knock wood) is a big relief.

SO, Kex, let's talk IC's. I know Monster's out, but a store I was in when trying to audition receivers has Tributaries. Subjective I agree, but how about some down-to-earth recs? And would this be a good time to look into power conditioners?

(Sorry all if I'm hijacking this thread. Not my intention to make it all about me).

P.S. Loud? Not a problem. It's what I want. I have some neighbors with noisy little lap dogs that I've been meaning to get even with. :devil:
IC's? I have never been able to hear a noticeable difference with IC's unless the connector ends were seriously corroded or there was some nasty interference from EMF or whatever. I've fought with some friends that sware there was a big difference.
I've used expensive IC's and cheap ones. I like BlueJeans Cables, etc. As long as it's of reasonable quality. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I wouldn't recommend spending too much on them. Getting them the shortest length you need is beneficial.

Emotiva recommends the amp be plugged directly into the wall and not through any power conditioners. I've never needed a power conditioner and can't speak to the benefits of one. I would try without one. The amps works fine. You might experience a faint buzzing or ground loop hum though, which would suggest other problems in your home. Maybe not. We'll see what happens.

What do you use for speaker cable termination? Bare wire, spade, banana plus?

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 11:22 AM
Bananas. The terminals on back of the Emo look from the pictures to have smaller holes than normal. I hope that's not the case because I just upgraded the Dayton Audio plugs that I didn't really like to these:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_wallconnections005.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/wallconnections005.jpg)

I absolutely love these plugs and I put them together to have double grip onto the wire.

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 02:50 PM
Bananas. The terminals on back of the Emo look from the pictures to have smaller holes than normal. I hope that's not the case because I just upgraded the Dayton Audio plugs that I didn't really like to these:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_wallconnections005.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/wallconnections005.jpg)

I absolutely love these plugs and I put them together to have double grip onto the wire.
I use bananas with mine, no problem. Should be fine.

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 03:00 PM
It shipped about three hours ago... should have it Monday.

I wonder what Cathy and Jennifer look like. :ihih:

bobsticks
05-08-2008, 03:04 PM
What he said!!! :mad5:


I swear L.J., I don't even know what you look like and I'm constantly taking your advice. WTF is it about you?!?!?! :incazzato:

It's because L.J. is, as they say, "the man". What's BFD, I mean I think that means something different where I'm from.

Congrats on the purchase Rich. I'm 100% positive that giving those bad boys some juice will open them up in ways that are sure to please.

L.J.
05-08-2008, 03:59 PM
Funny Sticks.....Very funny :nono:

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 04:18 PM
Thanks sticks. I think it's just what the doctor ordered. Sometimes I wonder, if I had bought the Integra would this even be necessary but then I realize this amp and my receiver will end up costing the same as the Integra would've anyway, only now I KNOW I'll have a very capable power supply.

Sorry L.J., this time Kex gets the cookies. :thumbsup:

It's because L.J. is, as they say, "the man". What's BFD, I mean I think that means something differenrt where I'm from.
I don't get that but BFD means Big Frickin' Deal, IIRC, everywhere but here, where it means Beringer Feedback Destroyer.

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 05:24 PM
Thanks sticks. I think it's just what the doctor ordered. Sometimes I wonder, if I had bought the Integra would this even be necessary but then I realize this amp and my receiver will end up costing the same as the Integra would've anyway, only now I KNOW I'll have a very capable power supply.

LOL. Rich, with this hobby you can second guess your purchases into bankruptcy in a hurry - don't fall into that habbit.
If it makes you feel any better, those big Integra's are damn nice receivers, but even they don't have a power supply as big as the LPA-1's, and in all honesty, I doubt will sound any better than what you're pairing together. I have an HT mag here with some measurements for the DTR-8.8, its amp section isn't quite up to par with the LPA-1's on paper. Though I suppose there could be subjective sound differences in favor of either, but I've always found Integras warmer than Yamaha so they might have similar presentations at least.

If nothing else, the nice thing about the LPA-1 is that you'll be able to upgrade your receiver to a processor a few years down the road if you want and keep the amp. Hard to do that with a receiver. This will afford you more money for a dedicated pre-amp/processor, which in turn should yield better sound quality over a receiver. The beauty of separates. I bet an Outlaw, Emotiva or even Integra processor would be a pretty good combo with it.

Then again the 3800 is a pretty solid processor in its own right. My Yammie surprised me with how decent it sounded. Way better than my old RX-V795a ever did as a pre-amp. So no need to upgrade their any time soon. You're going to find your audio quality improvements from electronics upgrades will get smaller and smaller while costing an arm and a leg more.

The DTR-8.8 is about $2200 or so. Pretty sure the 3800 and LPA-1 are at the very least an equivalent performing combo for a bit less money, with more flexibility. No regrets.

We're gonna have to open a pool on what month you end up with a BFD.

Rich-n-Texas
05-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Good stuff Kex. Very reassuring. I'm fairly confident when I say this is the last significant audio upgrade from a financial standpoint for me for some time to come... that BFD is very reasonably priced.

Can I get in on that pool? Never mind, L.J. will win it anyway.

kexodusc
05-08-2008, 05:50 PM
Good stuff Kex. Very reassuring. I'm fairly confident when I say this is the last significant audio upgrade from a financial standpoint for me for some time to come... that BFD is very reasonably priced.

Can I get in on that pool? Never mind, L.J. will win it anyway.

We're going to have to hire one of those hypnotists to convince you to get a BFD...or talk to your wife or something. To be honest I can't think of a bigger bang for the buck in my system besides my speakers maybe. It does so much for so little.

I think LJ has a BFD. GM, I'm not so sure he's got one...yet.
For my part, I have 3 more purchases to make in 2008. I need a HDTV projector, a BluRay player/PS3, and a new receiver/processor.

Narrowed it down to a few projectors. The PS3 is a runaway favorite at this stage of the game. Not sure what I'm going to do for processing though. Anything from a RX-V663 to an Anthem.

2009...that's the year of the infinite baffle, wife permitting. :p

Mr Peabody
05-08-2008, 07:29 PM
Rich, I've only used one Tributaries video cable which I'm happy with, their rep seems to be a high quality performing cable for less than some of the other name brands. My HDMI cable cost either $60. or $80, less than a Monster and looked better than theirs costing $150.00. So if this holds true for the audio side they would be a good option.

Kex, so far the Integra RTC-9.8 and a Onkyo Pro model whose number escapes me are the only processors I've found so far that are fully up to date. The Marantz AV8003 will be as well when it hits in a month or so. I haven't seen a updated version of Anthem yet, nice preamp though. Is Anthem, or other Canadian hifi, cheaper up there than in the U.S.?

audio amateur
05-09-2008, 03:58 AM
2009...that's the year of the infinite baffle, wife permitting. :p
Does the house allow? The new adire audio replacements by exodus audio look pretty nice. Reasonably priced too. I'd wait for a Brahma replacement though:D

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 04:13 AM
Rich, I've only used one Tributaries video cable which I'm happy with, their rep seems to be a high quality performing cable for less than some of the other name brands. My HDMI cable cost either $60. or $80, less than a Monster and looked better than theirs costing $150.00. So if this holds true for the audio side they would be a good option.

Kex, so far the Integra RTC-9.8 and a Onkyo Pro model whose number escapes me are the only processors I've found so far that are fully up to date. The Marantz AV8003 will be as well when it hits in a month or so. I haven't seen a updated version of Anthem yet, nice preamp though. Is Anthem, or other Canadian hifi, cheaper up there than in the U.S.?
To be honest, I'm not sure anymore. When I demoed Anthem gear a few years ago, I remember they were cheaper in Canada by a few hundred bucks - actually priced the same, but I didn't have to convert currency. With the Canadian dollar appreciating so much in recent years I suspect that advantage is gone. Most speaker companies still have a 1-2% price advantage, but nothing like before.

I'm not necessarily looking for a fully up to date processor. Good enough, is good enough, my player will decode DTS HD MA and the like, and as long as it has a few HDMI inputs I'll be good. I'm more interested in sound quality. I'm thinking of selling my integrated and merging my stereo and home theater setups into 1 room.

I'm hoping by the end of the summer when my house is finished that the new wave of units will be out. A lot of receivers/processors are waiting on the much delayed Cirrus logic chips. I'll probably wait for them.

Guess all I can really do is compare a few models to my existing receiver and go with that. The Integra is the only processor I've seen, unfortunately the dealers in my are won't let me do an in-home demo without charging me a re-stocking fee. :(
Can't really fault them for it - I wouldn't want to pay full, new price for an open boxed item as a customer. Could make this exercise difficult.

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 04:20 AM
Does the house allow? The new adire audio replacements by exodus audio look pretty nice. Reasonably priced too. I'd wait for a Brahma replacement though:D
The house allows..I designed the "media room" with an adjacent storage closet that is about 16' x 8' itself (my a/v rack is sunk into a wall in its own closet within that space.
I'm just not sure my wife is going to let me cut two 4 ft rectangles of wall out of a brand new house any time soon.

To be honest I have to live within my means here anyway - I've only got so much cash for audio upgrades saved up, so the IB is definitely a 2009 project. I need to buy a ride-on lawnmower and snow blower this year too. And about $4000 of sod. :sad:
And I suspect we'll to do something about my wife's car situation in the fall - she's been without one for a year now.

This little guy is a spitting image of her whenever that subject comes up ----> :incazzato:

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 04:34 AM
The house allows..I designed the "media room" with an adjacent storage closet that is about 16' x 8' itself (my a/v rack is sunk into a wall in its own closet within that space.
I'm just not sure my wife is going to let me cut two 4 ft rectangles of wall out of a brand new house any time soon.

To be honest I have to live within my means here anyway - I've only got so much cash for audio upgrades saved up, so the IB is definitely a 2009 project. I need to buy a ride-on lawnmower and snow blower this year too. And about $4000 of sod. :sad:
And I suspect we'll to do something about my wife's car situation in the fall - she's been without one for a year now.

This little guy is a spitting image of her whenever that subject comes up ----> :incazzato:
:lol: I feel sooooo sorry for you guys and your WAF. Must suck.

Mr. P, thanks. I think I'm going to stop in that Kellum's store and price them out. BTW, I paid $80 for my Monster HDMI cable, the one below their fastest speed. I've never paid that much for any type of cable and I'll never do it again.

Guys, something a couple of my engineers here brought up: the LPA-1 will draw about 13 amps. Probably not continuous, but should I try to keep this at least plugged into a separate outlet, even though the socket may be on the same circuit as the rest of the A/V equipment?

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 04:50 AM
:lol: I feel sooooo sorry for you guys and your WAF. Must suck.

Mr. P, thanks. I think I'm going to stop in that Kellum's store and price them out. BTW, I paid $80 for my Monster HDMI cable, the one below their fastest speed. I've never paid that much for any type of cable and I'll never do it again.

Guys, something a couple of my engineers here brought up: the LPA-1 will draw about 13 amps. Probably not continuous, but should I try to keep this at least plugged into a separate outlet, even though the socket may be on the same circuit as the rest of the A/V equipment?
I would do it if you can, certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

L.J.
05-09-2008, 06:45 AM
:lol: I feel sooooo sorry for you guys and your WAF. Must suck.

I don't have any........I think :idea:

GMichael
05-09-2008, 06:52 AM
:lol: I feel sooooo sorry for you guys and your WAF. Must suck.



That's for sure! I'm having trouble getting my toes to un-curl today.

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 06:55 AM
I don't have any........I think :idea:
Oh its there...and it manifests itself when you least expect it too. The whole idea of building the HT room was to avoid WAF and give her her living room back. So far so good - but she's starting to offer "advice" on things like "color" and layout...

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 07:09 AM
That's for sure! I'm having trouble getting my toes to un-curl today.
Man, you guys so easily slide right into the gutter ya know? :rolleyes:

If this thread starts mimicking the Rep points thread, you won't be able to blame me! :p

L.J.
05-09-2008, 07:43 AM
Oh its there...and it manifests itself when you least expect it too. The whole idea of building the HT room was to avoid WAF and give her her living room back. So far so good - but she's starting to offer "advice" on things like "color" and layout...

Kinda what we got going on right now. In a way, our living room is my dedicated room. Our front room, I usually refer to it as up front, is hers and she does whatever the heck she wants up there. The back room is mine. She'd kill me if I touched anything in the front and she doesn't bother me for having 14 panels, 15"sub, 7 large speakers in the back. No complaints about my other 2 systems either. I think I got it pretty good. Alot better than those guys posting on here saying my wife won't let me have towers or a big sub.

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 07:46 AM
Kinda what we got going on right now. In a way, our living room is my dedicated room. Our front room, I usually refer to it as up front, is hers and she does whatever the heck she wants up there. The back room is mine. She'd kill me if I touched anything in the front and she doesn't bother me for having 14 panels, 15"sub, 7 large speakers in the back. No complaints about my other 2 systems either. I think I got it pretty good. Alot better than those guys posting on here saying my wife won't let me have towers or a big sub.
I've just operated on the premise that it's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission...so far so good.

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 07:51 AM
L.J., have you updated your gallery with more recent pictures of your panels? Last time I looked, I don't think there were 14 ( :yikes: ) panels in your room. And did you also use the wood frame method Kex and others used when you built them?

L.J.
05-09-2008, 09:19 AM
L.J., have you updated your gallery with more recent pictures of your panels? Last time I looked, I don't think there were 14 ( :yikes: ) panels in your room. And did you also use the wood frame method Kex and others used when you built them?

No I need to update the pics. I've added more panels and put up blackout curtains. I still need to add some more curtains and tint a couple of more windows. I use to have them covered with foil....but you couldn't see it because the blinds were closed all the time.

I glued my panels to a 1/4 inch board and wrapped them with burlap. The corners got smashed a bit but it doesn't look bad since each panel looks exactly the same. I also purchased some made panels and mine look exactly like the premade ones. I have 7 24x48 & 7 24x24. I ordered all my diamonds premade because I just didn't feel like bothering with cutting stuff and all that mess. The premade panels have a wooden back on them and a frame around the edge. The echo I had in the room is gone so I'm happy with the results.

Kex, is there any benefit to having a open back on the panels when flat against the wall? I was reading on this but it was saying that the panels needed to be off the wall a bit (12 inches I think) to get any benefit from a open back. Something about the sound going through the panel twice.

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 10:00 AM
Kex, is there any benefit to having a open back on the panels when flat against the wall? I was reading on this but it was saying that the panels needed to be off the wall a bit (12 inches I think) to get any benefit from a open back. Something about the sound going through the panel twice.

No advantage to open back. No disadvantage either. Whether a board or a wall is back there, it's a hard, reflective surface.

There is an advantage to placing the panels a few inches out from the walls, even 2 or 3 inches will allow space for some more absorption. I've seen 4 inches recommended a lot for better bass absorption, and another rule of thumb is a space as thick as the panel itself, don't know how scientific that is though.

But to be honest, that's getting in over our heads. For echo and flutter, and taming reflections, flush mounting is fine - the space in the back allows for more diffraction and slightly better absorption of lower frequencies. So for taming echoes, it's not a big deal for us. And that's really what we're using it for in home theater moslty. I don't have the equipment to run a waterfall plot of my room's acoustics and aggresively attempt to pick off bass peaks one frequency at a time by calculating air gaps behind optimally placed panels. That's for sound/recording engineers in studios and space shuttles. For us, the amateur DIY HT hobbyists, placing them on the wall at reflection points will accomplish most of the desired benefit.

But you've probably figured out now that for bass traps, that's why its recommended to place panels across the corners to truncate them rather than run panels flush along walls in a corner - so if you have corner traps, you are taking advantage using that air space to increase absorption.

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 11:47 AM
Which brings us to... Q factor! :ihih:

The way I understand it, Q factor is the point where a room's resonant frequency is matched by the audio output's frequency, which causes an amplitude spike, correct?

GMichael
05-09-2008, 11:57 AM
Which brings us to... Q factor! :ihih:

The way I understand it, Q factor is the point where a room's resonant frequency is matched by the audio output's frequency, which causes an amplitude spike, correct?
I thought that was a node.

f0rge
05-09-2008, 12:01 PM
I've just operated on the premise that it's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission...so far so good.

amen to that, i think the only way my speakers could be uglier is if they were orange.

what's a BFD do anyway?

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 12:08 PM
I thought that was a node.
You can adjust the Q factor within your Paramentric EQ setup on your receiver. FWIW. :idea:

GMichael
05-09-2008, 12:35 PM
You can adjust the Q factor within your Paramentric EQ setup on your receiver. FWIW. :idea:
I could be wrong, but I believe that the Q factor is this. When you boost a particular frequency, it affects the frequencies around it. The Q controls how far on either side of it that it effects, and also the slope away from it.

kexodusc
05-09-2008, 02:58 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe that the Q factor is this. When you boost a particular frequency, it affects the frequencies around it. The Q controls how far on either side of it that it effects, and also the slope away from it.
Errr...ummm....yeah, that's actually not a bad way to think of it.

Q is used a few times over in different parts of audio. It's just a ratio that effects the quality of various graphical curves. For the BFD and parametric equalizers, it's just how wide a "range" each filter adjustment has on either side of the target frequency.

So yeah, what GM said.

Rich-n-Texas
05-09-2008, 03:21 PM
Nice job GM. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Mr Peabody
05-09-2008, 05:04 PM
C'mon Kex, she's been without a car for a year now, she's getting used to it, let her know you have your priorities. Give her a bus pass for Mother's Day.

Rich, $80.00 is about where high quality cables start. Get with the program man! Really though after getting a better amp try a pair of the Tributaries in place of your current speaker cable to see if you can tell a difference. If you can't you shouldn't spend the money. On the other hand why spend big money on speakers and amps to cheap out on cables, at least see if there's an improvement.

GMichael
05-10-2008, 05:08 AM
Errr...ummm....yeah, that's actually not a bad way to think of it.

Q is used a few times over in different parts of audio. It's just a ratio that effects the quality of various graphical curves. For the BFD and parametric equalizers, it's just how wide a "range" each filter adjustment has on either side of the target frequency.

So yeah, what GM said.

Cool, thanks. I got one right. That makes it 1:37,899,243 now.

Rich-n-Texas
05-10-2008, 08:27 AM
C'mon Kex, she's been without a car for a year now, she's getting used to it, let her know you have your priorities. Give her a bus pass for Mother's Day.

Rich, $80.00 is about where high quality cables start. Get with the program man! Really though after getting a better amp try a pair of the Tributaries in place of your current speaker cable to see if you can tell a difference. If you can't you shouldn't spend the money. On the other hand why spend big money on speakers and amps to cheap out on cables, at least see if there's an improvement.
$80 is what I spent on the HDMI cable, and some might say (check back on post #7 where Kex found a bad Monster cable), that Monster isn't the epitome of high quality. As far as my speaker cables, I'm very happy with them. They're 12 gauge Sound King OFC rope cables that were a breeze to work with and terminated with GLS Audio banana plugs. What I'm actually asking for suggestions on are IC's from the receiver pre-outs to the amp. The only cables I have along those lines are scrawny little dual RCA's that are very old and in most cases too long. I think I saw those type of cables at Kellums, but my next stop is Blue Jeans. Thanks.

Rich-n-Texas
05-11-2008, 11:51 AM
The signals present at the receiver's pre-outs are line level analog, correct?

kexodusc
05-11-2008, 12:18 PM
The signals present at the receiver's pre-outs are line level analog, correct?
Yep...

Rich-n-Texas
05-12-2008, 11:11 AM
Somehow I managed to get it out of the box and onto the island in the kitchen for the photo-op, but at this time I have no strength left to push the button on the camera.

The manual says the shelf it sits on will need to support 75 labs, and they ain't kidding! The purchase and shipping process went like a breeze, but getting this beast located and set up is going to be no easy feat.

Unless it's normal for electronics products like this to not be UL listed, I'm going to get in touch with Emotiva (or ask on the Emotiva forum) to find out why it's not.

Irregardless, I'm sooooo looking forward to clearing out the loser neighbors surrounding me, with their unkept lawns, sloppy kids and whiney little pisant lap dogs for some people who know how to appreciate +120 dB of Metallica! That's right!!! :23:

kexodusc
05-12-2008, 11:18 AM
Somehow I managed to get it out of the box and onto the island in the kitchen for the photo-op, but at this time I have no strength left to push the button on the camera.

The manual says the shelf it sits on will need to support 75 labs, and they ain't kidding! The purchase and shipping process went like a breeze, but getting this beast located and set up is going to be no easy feat.



Told ya, it is f'n heavy!!!
Make sure you pick the RIGHT shelf on your rack to put it on. Moving it is an even bigger ***** than initial setup.

Drop me a line if you have any questions....Enjoy. :thumbsup:

f0rge
05-12-2008, 12:07 PM
sweet rich, cant wait to read about the results.

L.J.
05-12-2008, 01:39 PM
'bout time

audio amateur
05-12-2008, 02:10 PM
Congrats man! But didn't you just get a shiny new receiver?
PS: watch your back if that thing is heavy

Rich-n-Texas
05-12-2008, 02:25 PM
'bout time
What?:incazzato:
You're jealous 'cause you don't get any cookies this time. :p

AA, yes I did but I was dissapointed with the lack of power when all speakers were driven solely by the Yamaha. It seemed the power supply was a little bit lacking. The advice I got, along with another great bang-for-the-buck deal made it impossible to resist. I have no idea yet how I'm going to get it into the cabinet; I'm not supposed to put more than 40 lbs on any shelf, but the bottom shelf of this cabinet is actually the base so I'm going to give it a shot. It may end up on a stand by itself for the short term though, just so I can try it out.

Mr Peabody
05-12-2008, 05:39 PM
You Emotiva guys taken the top off to check for bricks? You can tell which guys use their gym time eyeing the women instead of pressing the steel :) 75 lbs .........

kexodusc
05-13-2008, 04:01 AM
You Emotiva guys taken the top off to check for bricks? You can tell which guys use their gym time eyeing the women instead of pressing the steel :) 75 lbs .........
I did take the top of mine. I'm not an authority on amplifier topology and layout, but nothing about it looked cheap or corner-cutting. It's got a big PSU and giant heatsinks. The chassis is a bit thicker than I'm used to, but probably had to be to support the guts inside.

It's a far cry from the 7 channel amp in my $1000 + receiver. If I ever get a camera I'll take a pic of the two side by side. I'd love for someone to argue then that all watts are created equal...

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 04:42 AM
I'm definately regretting the year long absence from the gym. This is the biggest and heaviest piece of audio equipment I've ever owned. If not heavier, it's at least AS heavy as my DLP TV.

BTW, the rubber feet are stinky.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 04:47 AM
I did take the top of mine. I'm not an authority on amplifier topology and layout, but nothing about it looked cheap or corner-cutting. It's got a big PSU and giant heatsinks. The chassis is a bit thicker than I'm used to, but probably had to be to support the guts inside...

I have no intention of EVER taking anything other than the plastic strip that covers the LED display off. Not with my luck.:mad2: The picture on the website works just fine.

Errr..... well, now the picture above that he just snuck in there!

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 05:54 AM
Hmmm... 110 posts and no sign of pix.:idea:
I rekon he doesn't approve of these amps. :nonod:

L.J.
05-13-2008, 06:20 AM
Dude, your still not hooked up? What the heck are you doing over there anyways? You've had the amp for almost 24 hours now....sheesh.

kexodusc
05-13-2008, 06:28 AM
Hmmm... 110 posts and no sign of pix.:idea:
I rekon he doesn't approve of these amps. :nonod:
You figure out where you're putting that thing yet?

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 06:45 AM
My back went out. :o

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 06:47 AM
You figure out where you're putting that thing yet?

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_Emotivaamp006.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/Emotivaamp006.jpg)


:biggrin5:

kexodusc
05-13-2008, 06:51 AM
Great...I'll have to wait to get home to see that picture...work seems to be blocking Photobucket.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 06:54 AM
Maybe it's too big...

L.J.
05-13-2008, 06:57 AM
That's pretty funny. Mine(when I eventually get one) is gonna go in my bedroom. I'll have to put it on the floor with a board under it or something.

Rich, couyld you post a bigger pic :shocked:

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 07:03 AM
I was able to scrounge up three RCA patch cords that were used as IC's in my old old Pioneer receiver, CDP, and cassette deck setup as a temporary AVR ==> Amp connection, but I'm considering these as the final choice:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/6channel/index.htm

Unless someone talks me out of it, I'm going to order them this weekend.

L.J.
05-13-2008, 07:27 AM
I was able to scrounge up three RCA patch cords that were used as IC's in my old old Pioneer receiver, CDP, and cassette deck setup as a temporary AVR ==> Amp connection, but I'm considering these as the final choice:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/6channel/index.htm

Unless someone talks me out of it, I'm going to order them this weekend.

That's what I'm going with.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 07:36 AM
Can't wait to get Sticky Bobby's reaction to my high-tech transport system.

L.J., when you purchased from BJC in the past, was payment made through Paypal? When I put the cables in my shopping cart, I was redirected there.

audio amateur
05-13-2008, 07:37 AM
Great...I'll have to wait to get home to see that picture...work seems to be blocking Photobucket.
Maybe you shouldnt be on AR at work:smilewinkgrin:

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 07:39 AM
I hope my company doesn't cut me off... my post count'll go straight to hell!!!

L.J.
05-13-2008, 07:48 AM
Can't wait to get Sticky Bobby's reaction to my high-tech transport system.

L.J., when you purchased from BJC in the past, was payment made through Paypal? When I put the cables in my shopping cart, I was redirected there.


It takes you to that Paypal screen but you can still use a CC.

kexodusc
05-13-2008, 07:50 AM
Maybe you shouldnt be on AR at work:smilewinkgrin:
Touché...

basite
05-13-2008, 09:30 AM
I seem to have missed quite a bit :D

Congrats kex & Rich :)

keep them spinning,
Bert.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 09:48 AM
Yes you have Bert! Too much online gaming I'd suspect. :smilewinkgrin:

Oh and, thanks!

f0rge
05-13-2008, 09:56 AM
so when are you going to put that phil collins dvd back in?

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 10:05 AM
Well, I had spinach for lunch, and I'm feeling strong right now (hope it doesn't wear off by the time I get home), so I'm going to put it up on a temporary stand (an old printer stand that the big ol' dot matrix printers used to sit on) and try to connect it to the receiver. I'll see what happens with that Genesis DVD-A.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 10:48 AM
So Kex, when you're ready to buy your second LPA-1 let me know. Maybe L.J. and GM will be ready to buy and we'll get a group discount. Need convincing?

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=278

Read reply #12

basite
05-13-2008, 11:28 AM
Yes you have Bert! Too much online gaming I'd suspect. :smilewinkgrin:

Oh and, thanks!


hardly play anymore :)

too much music, and too much friends :D

and have fun with the new toy :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

kexodusc
05-13-2008, 11:35 AM
Rich to be honest I have no interest in bi-amping another LPA-1 unless the right price came along, but for $499, I wouldn't begrudge anyone for doing so.

I might, however drop some bones down on the XPA-2 for my stereo needs. In fact, I think this is on the list of things to buy in 2009, right after I solve my processor/receiver problem in 2008.

My logic - There's a point where the 4 surround channels just don't have enough information fed to them for me to care to invest there any further, and I'm so pleased right now that I don't think I could squeeze much more out of those. The LPA-1 has power galore for surround sound. The XPA-2 might afford me some bi-amping possibilities though, while improving the main speakers. Could bi-amp the center and have the front 3 speakers upgraded that way, and 2-channel performance would be even greater. I would think a XPA-2 with all its gobs of power and slightly better fidelity would be a better solution for someone who splits their time between 2-ch music and 5.1/7.1 HT. Costs a bit more, but it's impressive looking.

As for that glowing review in reply 12 - if his soundstage "doubled" his prior setup was broken, or dual LPA-1's are the greatest amp combo in audio history. Or maybe he was exaggerating a wee bit as he got caught up in the moment... :) I don't doubt the sound improves some though.

L.J.
05-13-2008, 11:42 AM
Reply 12...what about 13. I better get movin' on this :frown5:


we have a limited number of LPA-1s, and then they'll be gone. The UPA-7, it's replacement will be a higher price.

Rich-n-Texas
05-13-2008, 11:58 AM
Rich to be honest I have no interest in bi-amping another LPA-1 unless the right price came along, but for $499, I wouldn't begrudge anyone for doing so.

I might, however drop some bones down on the XPA-2 for my stereo needs. In fact, I think this is on the list of things to buy in 2009, right after I solve my processor/receiver problem in 2008.

My logic - There's a point where the 4 surround channels just don't have enough information fed to them for me to care to invest there any further, and I'm so pleased right now that I don't think I could squeeze much more out of those. The LPA-1 has power galore for surround sound. The XPA-2 might afford me some bi-amping possibilities though, while improving the main speakers. Could bi-amp the center and have the front 3 speakers upgraded that way, and 2-channel performance would be even greater. I would think a XPA-2 with all its gobs of power and slightly better fidelity would be a better solution for someone who splits their time between 2-ch music and 5.1/7.1 HT. Costs a bit more, but it's impressive looking.

As for that glowing review in reply 12 - if his soundstage "doubled" his prior setup was broken, or dual LPA-1's are the greatest amp combo in audio history. Or maybe he was exaggerating a wee bit as he got caught up in the moment... :) I don't doubt the sound improves some though.
Agree 100%. (That was a tongue-in-cheek post) I think those guys are extremely enthusiastic on the whole, and I probably will be too. Two amps cookin' with the volume cranked would have a serious negative impact on the electric bill which I don't need, what with summer just around the corner.

L.J., he posted that on April 2, and they still had stock last week. OTOH, if it disappears from their website, you're definately hosed.

f0rge
05-15-2008, 06:26 AM
pics? impressions?? review???

what the hell is going on here????

Rich-n-Texas
05-15-2008, 07:11 AM
pics? impressions?? review???

what the hell is going on here????
:lol: I have some logistics to deal with. I'm going to rearrange the furniture again so that everything is on the actual center of the wall. I had everything including the mains right of center to compensate for the surrounds which had to be setup to their left. This was because the fireplace takes up the right corner, but I think its now more important to have the meat of my setup in the proper location, and deal with the back speakers as best as I can. Once the amp is in the bottom of the cabinet (hopefully the amp won't break it) I won't want to move it again. I also have to order the IC's, which I'm about to do.

Besides, Kex can give a much better review than I can, so maybe he'll come along with more of his thoughts.

kexodusc
05-15-2008, 07:52 AM
Besides, Kex can give a much better review than I can, so maybe he'll come along with more of his thoughts.

I doubt it - I'm no pro-reviewer and struggle with a lot of the nomenclature I see in reviews. I didn't get too much into the subjective stuff, I just sort of noted some observations I could make because of other equipment I had lying around. If I just said it sounded good everyone would have wanted to know "compared to what?".

I think people here might be curious to hear your thoughts on how it drives your speakers vs the receiver - any differences you notice. B&W's are a bit fussier than most other common speaker brands, so the pairing alone is kind of interesting.

I suppose if I had any other observations to note, it would be the center chanel. My center channel would probably be rated a 6-ohm speaker for all intents and purposes, but I'd treat it as a 4-ohm speaker just to be safe. Impedance drops to about 4.7 ohms at minimum, which could give some receivers a bit of a hard time, but it's healthy above 6 ohms most of the time.

I guess I've had more time to listen to a variety of sources, HDTV, movies, etc. I find the dialogue clearer now. Not sure how else to describe it. Voices are just a bit more "real" sounding. I notice it especially during sports broadcasts or news shows where there's just dialogue and little other info distracting me, but it is noticeable on multi-channel music as well. It's just much more profound when there's no music playing and you can focus on dialogue only. For me, the improvement in vocals has been better in the center channel than the other speakers (all the same), and since they use the same drivers, and are of reasonably equal quality, I'm guessing the difference in impedance profiles has something to do with it. Guess this speaker benefits a bit more than the others from having more current when needed. YMMV.

I continue to be amazed at how cool this thing runs compared to some other amps I own that I could fry eggs on.

Rich-n-Texas
05-15-2008, 10:05 AM
I doubt it - I'm no pro-reviewer and struggle with a lot of the nomenclature I see in reviews. I didn't get too much into the subjective stuff, I just sort of noted some observations I could make because of other equipment I had lying around. If I just said it sounded good everyone would have wanted to know "compared to what?".
Put down that humble pie dude. You're waaaaaay more experienced than I am where the inner-workings of audio are concerned. Choices of where to live? Maybe not so. :biggrin5:


I think people here might be curious to hear your thoughts on how it drives your speakers vs the receiver - any differences you notice. B&W's are a bit fussier than most other common speaker brands, so the pairing alone is kind of interesting.
I wish I had a nickel (do they still make them?) for everytime I've heard that. "Fussy", "picky", "inefficient"... I think I understand the latter, but are they fussy with a particular type of music? Rock vs say Jazz? I thought I read somewhere that B&W's do well with classical music which is definalety NOT my style, so can a certain type/brand of amp tailor the speakers' presentation to fit my style? Is that a dumb question? Not that it matters at this point.


I suppose if I had any other observations to note, it would be the center chanel. My center channel would probably be rated a 6-ohm speaker for all intents and purposes, but I'd treat it as a 4-ohm speaker just to be safe. Impedance drops to about 4.7 ohms at minimum, which could give some receivers a bit of a hard time, but it's healthy above 6 ohms most of the time.
Are you measuring this or are you calculating it? I don't get how you know this.:idea:


I guess I've had more time to listen to a variety of sources, HDTV, movies, etc. I find the dialogue clearer now. Not sure how else to describe it. Voices are just a bit more "real" sounding. I notice it especially during sports broadcasts or news shows where there's just dialogue and little other info distracting me, but it is noticeable on multi-channel music as well. It's just much more profound when there's no music playing and you can focus on dialogue only. For me, the improvement in vocals has been better in the center channel than the other speakers (all the same), and since they use the same drivers, and are of reasonably equal quality, I'm guessing the difference in impedance profiles has something to do with it. Guess this speaker benefits a bit more than the others from having more current when needed. YMMV.

I continue to be amazed at how cool this thing runs compared to some other amps I own that I could fry eggs on.
I should've told hermanv in the photos thread that the heatsinks are optional. I purchased the option 'cause of where I'm geographically located. :smilewinkgrin: but I don't think he would've gone for it ya know? :hand:

kexodusc
05-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Put down that humble pie dude. You're waaaaaay more experienced than I am where the inner-workings of audio are concerned. Choices of where to live? Maybe not so. :biggrin5:
Pshhhh...I almost melted in Atlanta...Texas would own me.


I wish I had a nickel (do they still make them?) for everytime I've heard that. "Fussy", "picky", "inefficient"... I think I understand the latter, but are they fussy with a particular type of music? Rock vs say Jazz? I thought I read somewhere that B&W's do well with classical music which is definalety NOT my style, so can a certain type/brand of amp tailor the speakers' presentation to fit my style? Is that a dumb question? Not that it matters at this point. I don't think it's ever meant as a criticism. I like B&W speakers. They've always paid attention to detail and are of better quality than many brands, IMO. Their design philosophies though don't include aiming for high impedance and easy impedance swings. My guess is they feel they accomplish better sound doing it their way and these other things are a compromise. Nothing wrong with that. But they are fussy in that low powered, cheap a/v receivers aren't going to drive them as well as they might drive other speakers. They're just a bit harder to drive. Years ago that might have been a negative, but power is reasonably cheap these days and even mid-level receivers can handle B&W's without any trouble.


Are you measuring this or are you calculating it? I don't get how you know this.:idea: You just lick your fingers and count Mississippis.

I measured my speaker. I designed and built it. I have a few gadgets that can do this. I would have to measure yours or rely on a graph, it's not something you can calculate by the spec sheet.


I should've told hermanv in the photos thread that the heatsinks are optional. I purchased the option 'cause of where I'm geographically located. :smilewinkgrin: but I don't think he would've gone for it ya know? :hand:
I ordered mine with power windows and a sunroof.

f0rge
05-15-2008, 10:53 AM
I think people here might be curious to hear your thoughts on how it drives your speakers vs the receiver - any differences you notice. B&W's are a bit fussier than most other common speaker brands, so the pairing alone is kind of interesting.


Bingo. i'm curious about the receiver vs. amp comparison.

audio amateur
05-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Are you measuring this or are you calculating it? I don't get how you know this.:idea:
You can usually get impedance curves (impedance vs. frequency, as impedance changes with frequency) from the manufacturer. Impedance claims are nominal, i.e manufacturers give an average value of the impedance of their speakers over the frequency range. Although in our case, there's no need to have these graphs. What you really need is an amp that'll be able to power them. I'm sure the new beast will be doing just fine:)

Rich-n-Texas
05-15-2008, 12:27 PM
I don't think it's ever meant as a criticism...
I agree. I just want to understand what is on the person's mind with such descriptions.


I measured my speaker. I designed and built it. I have a few gadgets that can do this. I would have to measure yours or rely on a graph, it's not something you can calculate by the spec sheet.
I forgot you built your own. Frequency generators and scopes?


I ordered mine with power windows and a sunroof.
I could have but I don't want to live beyond my means. :nonod:

Mr Peabody
05-15-2008, 12:50 PM
That's not so much, I could build my own speakers, amp and test equipment too, but I don't want to live beyond my intelligence.

kexodusc
05-15-2008, 01:22 PM
That's not so much, I could build my own speakers, amp and test equipment too, but I don't want to live beyond my intelligence.
Heh heh...You'll never hear of all the failed attempts, stupid mistakes, fried drivers, and ill conceived ideas.
I always wonder why so many speakers are named Mk II or Mk III?
Mine would be Mk IX on average.

kexodusc
05-15-2008, 01:38 PM
I forgot you built your own. Frequency generators and scopes?

No, I use Woofer Tester III to test impedance and get driver parameters. For frequency response I use a jig other DIY-ers made that designed for the community that works with a program called Speaker Workshop. Works very well for our purposes. Wish I had an anechoic chamber....

pixelthis
05-15-2008, 10:55 PM
Is this amp made in China?
I am dubious about seven channels of amplication for 499$.
That is, what, 875 watts?
Are these receiver type amps without the preamp/tuner section?:1:

kexodusc
05-16-2008, 03:36 AM
Is this amp made in China?
I am dubious about seven channels of amplication for 499$.
That is, what, 875 watts?
Are these receiver type amps without the preamp/tuner section?:1:
Yep, it is built in China, owned, engineered and overseen by American owned company that does the quality control. I suspect that'll scare a lot of people off regardless of the product's actual merit. The same company builds amps for other high end brand names. I'm not a big fan of exploiting third world markets for cheap labor but I'm not a fan of padding the wallets of a/v stores and long-established audio brands that have been overcharging for amplifiers for years now either.

There is nothing "receiver" about this unit. I have a 125 watt X 7, $1000+ receiver that doesn't weigh half as much as this thing or have as much real power or sound quality. The size of the caps, power supply, heat sinks, and even attention to detail inside the chassis (no electrical tape) are a notch up on Adcom and Rotel gear I own.

It has a 1500 watt power supply. By comparison, Onkyo/Integra have the biggest power supplies I've seen in a/v receivers that boast 120+ watt/channel capability, the TX-SR 875 for example has an 875 watt power supply unit. Most a/v receivers in the 125 watt/channel range would have something closer to 500-600 watt psu's.

I don't expect they make much money off these units, probably a loss leader to rope you into buying their processors or other amps. NAD and Outlaw did the same thing when they started business.

It is not a 7 x 125 amp. It is a 5 x 125 amp with 2 additional 50 watt channels. Those 2 channels could be bridged to make a 6th 125 watt channel if someone so wishes. For my purposes, 50 watts is more than enough for 6th and 7th surround speakers. The 7-channel version of this amp is due out in a few months and will be $699 or more.

Rich-n-Texas
05-16-2008, 04:24 AM
Is this amp made in China?
I am dubious about seven channels of amplication for 499$.
That is, what, 875 watts?
Are these receiver type amps without the preamp/tuner section?:1:
Did you not research these a little bit here: http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html and then read at least one review here: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/emotiva/PRD_382970_1583crx.aspx
?

That's what I did. You made claims that my receiver was so cheap because it was coming from the "Gray" market, but then as time went by you complimented me that I was learning. It's about bang for the buck right? So I don't understand why you'd be dubious.

There are no other comtrols on this amp besides a main power switch, a standby power switch, and a bridge switch. That's it. Not even a 110/220 switch. It's about as RnT proof as it can get.

pixelthis
05-17-2008, 08:57 PM
Did you not research these a little bit here: http://www.emotiva.com/lpa1.html and then read at least one review here: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/emotiva/PRD_382970_1583crx.aspx
?

[QUOTE]That's what I did. You made claims that my receiver was so cheap because it was coming from the "Gray" market, but then as time went by you complimented me that I was learning. It's about bang for the buck right? So I don't understand why you'd be dubious.

Not "dubious" but curious.
I did go to the website (and they do have a seven channel amp now, BTW) AND was wondering why there was so much talk on the "forum" about biamping.
Just trying to sell more amps?
Also the damping factor is 100, exelent for a receiver but modest for a standalone amp.
I AM ALWAYS questioning when I see something that violates the second law of thermodynamics(no such thing as a free lunch)
As for the grey market thing, if all of my arguing so far hasnt convinced you that that was
an honest question and not a dig, then nothing will.
I have bought several things on the grey market and dont really see what the problem is,
so , not being able to figure out why grey market is so bad, I am just not going to worry about it


There are no other comtrols on this amp besides a main power switch, a standby power switch, and a bridge switch. That's it. Not even a 110/220 switch. It's about as RnT proof as it can get.
Its a nice looking amp, but its a wonder why people call ME cheap, and dont even question this much amp for so cheap just to save a few bucks:1:

pixelthis
05-17-2008, 09:03 PM
[QUOTE=kexodusc]Yep, it is built in China, owned, engineered and overseen by American owned company that does the quality control. I suspect that'll scare a lot of people off regardless of the product's actual merit. The same company builds amps for other high end brand names. I'm not a big fan of exploiting third world markets for cheap labor but I'm not a fan of padding the wallets of a/v stores and long-established audio brands that have been overcharging for amplifiers for years now either.

There is nothing "receiver" about this unit. I have a 125 watt X 7, $1000+ receiver that doesn't weigh half as much as this thing or have as much real power or sound quality. The size of the caps, power supply, heat sinks, and even attention to detail inside the chassis (no electrical tape) are a notch up on Adcom and Rotel gear I own.

It has a 1500 watt power supply. By comparison, Onkyo/Integra have the biggest power supplies I've seen in a/v receivers that boast 120+ watt/channel capability, the TX-SR 875 for example has an 875 watt power supply unit. Most a/v receivers in the 125 watt/channel range would have something closer to 500-600 watt psu's.

I don't expect they make much money off these units, probably a loss leader to rope you into buying their processors or other amps. NAD and Outlaw did the same thing when they started business.

It is not a 7 x 125 amp. It is a 5 x 125 amp with 2 additional 50 watt channels. Those 2 channels could be bridged to make a 6th 125 watt channel if someone so wishes. For my purposes, 50 watts is more than enough for 6th and 7th surround speakers. The 7-channel version of this amp is due out in a few months and will be $699 or more.[/QUOTE

]
Thanks, looking foward to hearing how it sounds.
Its just that whenever I see a bargain like this I think back to an old cartoon I saw once.
A salesman was talking about a receiver he was trying to sell.
The caption read;
500 WPC, INTO FIVE CHANNELS, WITH .000005 DISTORTION AT 20 TO 20KHZ
(for about twenty seconds) :1:

kexodusc
05-18-2008, 04:29 AM
Thanks, looking foward to hearing how it sounds.

I wouldn't put it in the league with PS Audio and Bryston by any means... but it doesn't cost $5000 either. in terms of sound quality it easily trumps two channel Adcom, NAD and Rotel power amps I currently have in my home (and referenced in this thread). Whether that's because it is more powerful or just higher quality throughout, I could care less. I think quality wise it's equal or slightly better than those brands, nothing spectacular, but far beyond your typical $1000-$2000 receiver. It is a better sounding product however, end of story.


Also the damping factor is 100, exelent for a receiver but modest for a standalone amp.
Damping factor is 200 for this amp, not 100, which would put it on par or better than modern multi-channel amps from the likes Rotel, NAD, Parasound, etc.

Though to be honest, with series impedance from even 12 gauge speaker cables being so much greater than the output impedance of amplifiers, frequency response and time decay differences between damping factors of 50 and 2000 are determined inaudible as the likes of Toole, Thiel and Small proved years ago. The current debate is whether a damping factor of 20 to 50 is even audible. 200 is far beyond that. This is probably the most irrelevant specification of modern solid state amplifiers where even bad ones usually have at least 100.

Multi-thousand dollar tube amps can have damping factors as low as 5 and their fans even prefer the warmth low damping factors allow for. I'm not a fan of the "tube sound" myself, but it does kinda put into question the relevance of this figure, and is the big reason why more and more companies don't even bother reporting it anymore.

Mr Peabody
05-18-2008, 02:43 PM
In the pricing of Emotiva and Outlaw you have to keep in mind they are selling direct to the consumer, so they can make as, or more profit, than a typical line and still be cheaper to the user. There's a lot of stepping on and over head that goes onto an amp sold through a regular channel. And, that's not accounting for pure greed of some brands.

As far as "Gray Market", it may be cheaper but you are on your own. Manufacturers won't even honor warranties of items sold through "Gray Market". Not to mention those who sell in Gray Market probably aren't your most reputable merchants.

kexodusc
05-18-2008, 04:10 PM
In the pricing of Emotiva and Outlaw you have to keep in mind they are selling direct to the consumer, so they can make as, or more profit, than a typical line and still be cheaper to the user. There's a lot of stepping on and over head that goes onto an amp sold through a regular channel. And, that's not accounting for pure greed of some brands.

That's true - I know for a fact the markup on Arcam and Parasound gear is 30-40% for some items, I can only assume if they're doing that then most other companies are in that ballpark. When I bought my Rotel a few years ago, they knocked 20% off it before I even demoed it, and I've had almost 50% off the last 2 receivers I bought - late in the year but I'm sure they didn't sell it below cost to me cause they still threw in cables. And judging by a lot of speaker sales I see 30-40% markup isn't out of line for a lot of audio gear. ..so there's quite a markup on audio gear still that factory-direct companies can do without. That's on top of whatever markup the manufacturer makes selling to the retailer. I also wonder how much of every product I buy goes to paying for those flashy magazine adds - some companies pay more in advertising than they do R&D.

NAD, Adcom, and more recently Outlaw all built names for themselves selling well below the competition for a few years until their brand power let them charge more. I see a lot of Outlaw customers complaining about the price increases, but to be fair they've got to make money to stay in business.

Emotiva owns their production facilty and produce amps for other brands as well so they might have some cost advantages there. One that comes to mind that most factory direct companies benefit from is shipping - customers pays it. For retail stores, distribution costs are built into the price. Just a different business model overall.

I like what factory direct speaker companies have done - my 3 favorite B&M brands have been Dynaudio, Paradigm and B&W, and I've heard Rocket, Swans and Ascend Acoustic speakers outperform offerings of those brands at half the price. Those little Rocket speakers in particular are scary good. The industry's changing to in the entry/mid-fi levels at least.

audio amateur
05-18-2008, 04:18 PM
Emotiva owns their production facilty and produce amps for other brands as well so they might have some cost advantages there. One that comes to mind that most factory direct companies benefit from is shipping - customers pays it. For retail stores, distribution costs are built into the price. Just a different business model overall.
You've mentioned this several times, do you know which companies?

kexodusc
05-18-2008, 04:50 PM
You've mentioned this several times, do you know which companies?
Not really - I've seen people say Sunfire, Halcro and a few other brands, but I've got no way of verifying it and I've never heard Emotiva confirm which brands. But I do know they own production facilities and were building amps before the Emotiva house brand name came into being.

My guess is that wouldn't be in their self-interest to list their clients either, particularly if they were repackaging an amp in part or in whole and undercutting a big customer of theirs.

A lot of these companies start up like this though - Outlaw was started by a former NAD exec, and a lot of speaker companies were started by people who worked for other companies. They learn the ropes, build their networks and eventually go their own way.

Rich-n-Texas
05-18-2008, 05:22 PM
Not "dubious" but curious.
I'm confused now. You said dubious. Dubious is the same as pesimistic, or even doubtful. That's what I reacted to pix. So now that you're "curious" does this mean that you no longer doubt the ability of this amp because of the fact that it was put together in China, but are instead intrigued? You've talked about buying an amp for your system, I wouldn't wait too long if you've got any interest in this excellent bang-for-the-buck amp if I were you.

For the first time since bringing home my speakers I can actually relate to people who descirbe what they're hearing with their higher end speakers. Up until now, I wasn't really hearing anything all that amazing, but now even the NHRA drag racing I'm watching is just stunning (and rattling my windows too :thumbsup: )

... AND was wondering why there was so much talk on the "forum" about biamping.
Just trying to sell more amps?
Well, on this forum I was just commenting to Kex with tongue-in-cheek, as I said. On the Emotiva forum, I guess there're people who have the cash and enjoy the hobby. Nothing wrong with that. Besides, dual room shakers for a measly $1K isn't so unreasonable IMO.
Its a nice looking amp, but its a wonder why people call ME cheap, and dont even question this much amp for so cheap just to save a few bucks:1:
I suppose it's "nice looking" (not really my opinion) but it's going to be sitting in the bottom of my cabinet out of sight anyway.

Mr Peabody
05-18-2008, 07:24 PM
So....... did Emotiva (China) hire the boys in TN to design the amp and Emotiva is a Chinese company, or, do the boys in TN own the amp company, place it in China for the labor and just decided to design an amp since they build them for everyone else?

pixelthis
05-18-2008, 10:47 PM
I'm confused now. You said dubious. Dubious is the same as pesimistic, or even doubtful. That's what I reacted to pix. So now that you're "curious" does this mean that you no longer doubt the ability of this amp because of the fact that it was put together in China, but are instead intrigued? You've talked about buying an amp for your system, I wouldn't wait too long if you've got any interest in this excellent bang-for-the-buck amp if I were you.

I dont doubt the ability of this AMP because of its Chinese origin, but because of its price.
A two channel adcom will cost 799 or so. So its a legitimate concern.
But I HAVE BOUGHT CHINESE, CANT GET AROUND IT THESE DAYS,
but it tends to take the Chinese awhile to "ramp up" and turn out a quality product



For the first time since bringing home my speakers I can actually relate to people who descirbe what they're hearing with their higher end speakers. Up until now, I wasn't really hearing anything all that amazing, but now even the NHRA drag racing I'm watching is just stunning (and rattling my windows too :thumbsup: )

So now you get what I was saying , that you were missing out on most of your speakers performance, thats a GOOD thing.
Still not going to listen to me much even so I wager
:1:

kexodusc
05-19-2008, 03:17 AM
So....... did Emotiva (China) hire the boys in TN to design the amp and Emotiva is a Chinese company, or, do the boys in TN own the amp company, place it in China for the labor and just decided to design an amp since they build them for everyone else?
They are either very good actors, or they are honest, twang speakin' folk from TN...Their a US company exploiting cheap chinese labor and facilities. They were building amps anyway and had passion for the audio business so decided to make a house brand "Emotiva".

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 04:35 AM
So....... did Emotiva (China) hire the boys in TN to design the amp and Emotiva is a Chinese company, or, do the boys in TN own the amp company, place it in China for the labor and just decided to design an amp since they build them for everyone else?
Why is China in parentheses Mr. P? Anything you need to know (if you don't believe Kex) about their origins and business model is on their website. Check it out!

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 04:37 AM
They are either very good actors, or they are honest, twang speakin' folk from TN...Their a US company exploiting cheap chinese labor and facilities. They were building amps anyway and had passion for the audio business so decided to make a house brand "Emotiva".
That's strange. I think you already said that didn't you?

kexodusc
05-19-2008, 05:08 AM
That's strange. I think you already said that didn't you?
Deja Vu moment, Rich? I ramble on so much here I don't know what I say or how many times I say it...

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 05:21 AM
I dont doubt the ability of this AMP because of its Chinese origin, but because of its price.
A two channel adcom will cost 799 or so. So its a legitimate concern.
But I HAVE BOUGHT CHINESE, CANT GET AROUND IT THESE DAYS,
but it tends to take the Chinese awhile to "ramp up" and turn out a quality product
I feel better now that you're not "dubious" anymore.


So now you get what I was saying , that you were missing out on most of your speakers performance, thats a GOOD thing.
Still not going to listen to me much even so I wager
:1:
I Do listen to you pix! I listen to everyone's advice and then make my decisions based on the majority views, my finances and what's practical for me. I would've probably bought the Integra had it not been so hard to find and audition. But the end result was, I've got a very capable processor that's relatively future proof and a very capable amp for what the Integra would've cost at the time I was ready to buy one. Do I have to say bang for the buck again?

A lot of people don't listen to you because of your combative and confrontational personality, but that's just you. When you first brought up "Gray Market" you left me and I'm sure a few others, initially, with the impression that buying from that avenue was bad because you wouldn't get manufacturer support and the manual was probably a photocopy. Well, we all found out that my receiver purchase was from a legit outlet. But again, because of your style, people automatically get defensive, and that's what carries over from conversation to conversation.

Just take it for what it's worth dude.

GMichael
05-19-2008, 06:46 AM
Rich,

You got yours in huh? Looks like you are enjoying it so far. Turned your speakers into monster killers huh? Great for you. You gotta love a happy ending.

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 07:02 AM
HEY! WTF were you last week? :mad5:
Do you realize you have responsibilities in this community? Did you announce to anyone that you were going to be out for a whole week? :incazzato:





;)

Feanor
05-19-2008, 07:13 AM
Why is China in parentheses Mr. P? Anything you need to know (if you don't believe Kex) about their origins and business model is on their website. Check it out!

Check out the Bose and Monster websites while you're at it. :smilewinkgrin:

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 07:19 AM
I'm still kicking myself for paying $80 bucks for a Monster HDMI cable. :mad:

basite
05-19-2008, 07:31 AM
Multi-thousand dollar tube amps can have damping factors as low as 5 and their fans even prefer the warmth low damping factors allow for. I'm not a fan of the "tube sound" myself, but it does kinda put into question the relevance of this figure, and is the big reason why more and more companies don't even bother reporting it anymore.


my Mcintosh integrated (solid state...), has a damping factor of 40, I never experienced problems whatsoever...

anything above 20 should suffice for most speakers, but there indeed are amps with a really low damping factor that still perform well...

a manley stingray, for example, has a df of 5, and it sounds wonderful.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

GMichael
05-19-2008, 07:33 AM
HEY! WTF were you last week? :mad5:
Do you realize you have responsibilities in this community? Did you announce to anyone that you were going to be out for a whole week? :incazzato:





;)

I did mention that I had a early T-time on the 12th in Florida. No one asked, so I didn't elaborate.
Congrats on the new tank.

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 07:57 AM
You're right, but I sure hope it didn't take you a full week to play 18 holes!

Thanks. Kex is da man! :yesnod:

GMichael
05-19-2008, 08:56 AM
You're right, but I sure hope it didn't take you a full week to play 18 holes!

Disney was fun too.



Thanks. Kex is da man! :yesnod:

And that would make you the.......?

Catcher?:yikes:

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 09:21 AM
No. That would be a receiver.

GMichael
05-19-2008, 09:38 AM
Same thing.

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 10:23 AM
I hope you enjoyed your vacation GM. :thumbsup:

GMichael
05-19-2008, 10:46 AM
I hope you enjoyed your vacation GM. :thumbsup:

Thanks. I did. It's a little crazy trying to get caught up now though.
Glad to see that you are enjoying that new toy. Brings out the best of those B&W's huh?
So, what's next? The PS3 or the BFD?

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 11:19 AM
...So, what's next? The PS3 or the BFD?
:incazzato:


I think that'll tame down when I finish with room treatments. I want to finish up with room treatments now so PLEASE STOP TALKING ME INTO BUYING STUFF... OKAY?!
That means you L.J. :mad5:
And you too!

GMichael
05-19-2008, 11:22 AM
:incazzato:

And you too!

Okay.
But that still doesn't answer my question. Which will be next?

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 11:25 AM
L.J. says he's going to buy another PS3, so it's your turn to buy something. Your monster speakers need what this amp has to offer, so...

GMichael
05-19-2008, 12:29 PM
L.J. says he's going to buy another PS3, so it's your turn to buy something. Your monster speakers need what this amp has to offer, so...

My "monster" speakers don't dip below 6 ohms at any point, and are well over 10 ohms+ once they get below 100htz. That may be due to the built in amps for driving the woofers. My little receiver should have no trouble driving them. I only want an amp so I can later upgrade to a pre-pro and move the Yammie to the basement. It will have to wait.
Until money matters are settled, there will be no more audio upgrades. And then it will be the BFD. Although, I did buy 4 new speakers for the wife's Honda (soon to be my Honda). The Honda gets almost 10 more mpg than my Acura. I work 40 miles from home and she works 8 miles from home. We'll be saving about $12 a week in gas. But I won't drive her car till the speakers are in. She's got a decent Pioneer deck in it but the speakers are factory crap. I pulled one out a couple weeks ago. They must have cost about $0.50 a pair to make. I bought 4 Pioneer speakers at about the same quality as her deck ($100 total from Amazon. Would have been almost $300 from BB or CC). They'll pay for themselves in a few weeks.:15:

L.J.
05-19-2008, 12:57 PM
L.J. says he's going to buy another PS3, so it's your turn to buy something. Your monster speakers need what this amp has to offer, so...

PS3 plans are on hold. Maybe if a price drop happens.

kexodusc
05-19-2008, 01:13 PM
PS3 plans are on hold. Maybe if a price drop happens.
Will LJ get PS3 no. 2 before Kex gets PS3 no. 1???
Will GM or Rich get a BFD first?

This place is like a reverse audioholics anonymous program from bizarro world.

GMichael
05-19-2008, 01:18 PM
Will LJ get PS3 no. 2 before Kex gets PS3 no. 1???

I bet on Kex. Hey wait. No fair!


Will GM or Rich get a BFD first?

I bet on Rich. (heh heh heh)


This place is like a reverse audioholics anonymous program from bizarro world.

Hey! I resemble that.:nono:

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 03:18 PM
Somebody PLEASE reassure me that I'm doing the right thing by getting the room acoustically sound first, then finish with a BFD. Would a BFD really even be necessary if I properly place the panels?

Mr Peabody
05-19-2008, 03:40 PM
No Rich, Kex, didn't already say that, you hit "reply to post", what's wrong with you?

kexodusc
05-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Somebody PLEASE reassure me that I'm doing the right thing by getting the room acoustically sound first, then finish with a BFD. Would a BFD really even be necessary if I properly place the panels?
IMHO you are going to want to use both. To get your room down perfect to the point subwoofer peaks and dips are no longer an issue is going to require a lot more money and treatment than just acoustic panels, and will cost a lot more to accomplish the same thing a BFD does. The BFD is cheating a bit since it is an EQ and probably localizes its effects at the sweet spot more than proper treatment, but at some point you have to decide if the room is going to be a living room/family room component of a household or a studio grade dwelling approaching an anechoic chamber.

To be honest, if you had no panels, no BFD and were asking me what to do first, I would tell you you'd get more benefit immediately with a BFD, and the acoustic panels should come next. I wouldn't think it was bad that you went with acoustic wall panels first though, both have their benefits.

Just my opinion.

bobsticks
05-19-2008, 04:14 PM
Somebody PLEASE reassure me that I'm doing the right thing by getting the room acoustically sound first, then finish with a BFD. Would a BFD really even be necessary if I properly place the panels?

You are but realize for the treatments to be of utmost efficiency you have to get the ones with the custom hi-density auralex, 700 thread count Egyptian cotton and silk covers and the rare Sumatran Knotty Pixie Tree frame. Should be about $2000.00 a panel.

Rich-n-Texas
05-19-2008, 04:51 PM
No Rich, Kex, didn't already say that, you hit "reply to post", what's wrong with you?

Like all good companies these days, they are HQ'ed in Tennessee, designed in the USA and manufactured in China (oh the horror). Hence the low price.
Seeing a lot of this in the driver/speaker industry too - QC is handled by US engineering, but labor/production is exploite--err contracted at the going rate in China. You gotta think eventually the labor supply over there is going to become a bit more scarce..

Emotiva owns their manufacturing facilities and actually produce amps for some other high end audio companies in addition to the house brand "Emotiva".
Post #22 Mr. P. Just an FYI. BTW, mine was shipped from Tennessee.

pixelthis
05-19-2008, 11:05 PM
my Mcintosh integrated (solid state...), has a damping factor of 40, I never experienced problems whatsoever...

anything above 20 should suffice for most speakers, but there indeed are amps with a really low damping factor that still perform well...

a manley stingray, for example, has a df of 5, and it sounds wonderful.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I find that hard to beleive.
four hundred maybe.
My Intergra has one of 40, but monoblocks and paired seperates typically have DF of
200 to 400.
The emotivas 100 or so is okay, but outlaw has DF of 200 or so, typically:1:

pixelthis
05-19-2008, 11:13 PM
check out this one, with a damping factor of over 400,(10 to 400 hz) seven channels at 75wpc, .08%.
Not as flashy, but a more compact design, and 599$.
Its just that there are those in this hobby who have to have the latest thing, but
outlaw has been out there a bit longer, and their customer service is great also

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html

Just saying that shopping around pays, is all.
I am sure that the Emotiva is nice:1:

kexodusc
05-20-2008, 04:15 AM
I find that hard to beleive.
four hundred maybe.
My Intergra has one of 40, but monoblocks and paired seperates typically have DF of
200 to 400.
The emotivas 100 or so is okay, but outlaw has DF of 200 or so, typically:1:

Pix, the Emotivas are spec'd at 200 DF, not 100. Not sure why you keep saying that.

The Mac does truly have a DF of 40. Even the newer Mac's only have a DF of 100.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/downloads/product_downloads/power-amp-compare.pdf

And 40 is precisely where many people scientifically proved DF to reach the threshold of audible significance, beyond which differences in frequency response, improved motor control, and time decay didn't improve as the DF approached infinity. It's not a linear curve by any means. Beyond 40, the number just gets higher and fools people into believing a bigger number = better, but the higher DF's don't translate into improved performance.

DF was proven to be largely irrelevant spec my Thiel, Small, Toole, and hundreds of others even back in the 70's. As an old timer, I would have thought you'd known that. :)

I have owned an Outlaw mono-bloc amp in the past- not bad at all and they're a solid company. A good friend of mine has several pieces of Outlaw gear, including that amp you mention. It's not bad, definitely better than a receiver, but it doesn't have the power or headroom I wanted and sound quality deteriorated at volumes I would typically reach because of this. Think you'd do well to buy their stuff to augment your existing amp. But if a DF of 200 is scaring you away then here's some good reading for ya that explains why it shouldn't:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm

Pay particular attention to the diminished returns amps exhibit when DF is greater than 20. Audibly indistinguishable!

Best of luck!

GMichael
05-20-2008, 05:09 AM
You are but realize for the treatments to be of utmost efficiency you have to get the ones with the custom hi-density auralex, 700 thread count Egyptian cotton and silk covers and the rare Sumatran Knotty Pixie Tree frame. Should be about $2000.00 a panel.

My Egyptian cotton and silk covers only have a 650 thread count. Does that mean that they are no good? And my Pixie tree died. I did smeer a boat-load of pixie snot onto a dogwood tree. Will that be ok?

Rich-n-Texas
05-20-2008, 05:20 AM
Pix, the Emotivas are spec'd at 200 DF, not 100. Not sure why you keep saying that.

The Mac does truly have a DF of 40. Even the newer Mac's only have a DF of 100.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/downloads/product_downloads/power-amp-compare.pdf

And 40 is precisely where many people scientifically proved DF to reach the threshold of audible significance, beyond which differences in frequency response, improved motor control, and time decay didn't improve as the DF approached infinity. It's not a linear curve by any means. Beyond 40, the number just gets higher and fools people into believing a bigger number = better, but the higher DF's don't translate into improved performance.

DF was proven to be largely irrelevant spec my Thiel, Small, Toole, and hundreds of others even back in the 70's. As an old timer, I would have thought you'd known that. :)

I have owned an Outlaw mono-bloc amp in the past- not bad at all and they're a solid company. A good friend of mine has several pieces of Outlaw gear, including that amp you mention. It's not bad, definitely better than a receiver, but it doesn't have the power or headroom I wanted and sound quality deteriorated at volumes I would typically reach because of this. Think you'd do well to buy their stuff to augment your existing amp. But if a DF of 200 is scaring you away then here's some good reading for ya that explains why it shouldn't:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm

Pay particular attention to the diminished returns amps exhibit when DF is greater than 20. Audibly indistinguishable!

Best of luck!
There you go again repeating yourself Kex! :smilewinkgrin:

Good info though, except for one thing... translate "Damping Factor" into: what effect does it have on what I hear?

kexodusc
05-20-2008, 05:49 AM
There you go again repeating yourself Kex! :smilewinkgrin:

Good info though, except for one thing... translate "Damping Factor" into: what effect does it have on what I hear?
In the simplest of terms, better woofer/cone control. With poor damping factors of below 40 AND some speaker types you will notice a looser sound of bass. Call it overhang, delay in transient response or whatever. You might call it "bass tightness". Some people actually prefer this sound - it's not bad, and it's nothing major or sloppy, but it's not as accurate. Tube amps often fall below the magic 20 to 40 df. But there's people in the world with the wherewithal to own any gear they choose, and they prefer tube amps for whatever reason. We're talking about differences in thousandths of a second here, indistinguishable to the human ear. There's measuring better, and then there's real world performance.

It can affect the frequency response by a bit (though less than your human ear could detect.

To quote the Audioholics column:
"Secondly, the effects of this loss of damping on system frequency response is non-existent in most cases, and minimal in all but the worst case scenario. Using the criteria that 0.1 dB is the smallest audible peak, the data in the table suggests that any damping factor over 10 is going to result in inaudible differences between that and one equal to infinity.

So there ya go...difference between a DF of 10, 400 and 4 million is indistinguishable. There's a point where you just measure better for the sake of measuring better...no audible benefit.

Note - damping factor isn't the ONLY spec that speaks to bass tightness or woofer control. I would rather more power, more current capability, and so forth than a DF above 100, all things equal.

bobsticks
05-20-2008, 03:08 PM
My Egyptian cotton and silk covers only have a 650 thread count. Does that mean that they are no good? And my Pixie tree died. I did smeer a boat-load of pixie snot onto a dogwood tree. Will that be ok?


You, sir, are no audiophile.

Rich-n-Texas
05-20-2008, 04:24 PM
In the simplest of terms, better woofer/cone control. With poor damping factors of below 40 AND some speaker types you will notice a looser sound of bass. Call it overhang, delay in transient response or whatever. You might call it "bass tightness". Some people actually prefer this sound - it's not bad, and it's nothing major or sloppy, but it's not as accurate. Tube amps often fall below the magic 20 to 40 df. But there's people in the world with the wherewithal to own any gear they choose, and they prefer tube amps for whatever reason. We're talking about differences in thousandths of a second here, indistinguishable to the human ear. There's measuring better, and then there's real world performance...
See? This is exactly the kind of explanation that make things clear to me. I'll take accurate to mean more clearly defined... a higher damping factor number means better definition, but for the most part indistiguishable. Yes?

There's a point where you just measure better for the sake of measuring better...
Kinda like penis envy huh?

Rich-n-Texas
05-20-2008, 04:29 PM
My Egyptian cotton and silk covers only have a 650 thread count. Does that mean that they are no good? And my Pixie tree died. I did smeer a boat-load of pixie snot onto a dogwood tree. Will that be ok?
Uhhh... Got news for ya fellas. Egyptian cotton ain't no big thang! Ask any car detailer if he uses 100% made in the US of A cotton towels or Egyptian cotton towels, and I'll bet he'll say USA. Cotton towels made here with home-grown cotton won't scratch clearcoat finishes where anything else claiming to be cotton... not so much. (Some useless trivia for ya there) :3:

Mr Peabody
05-20-2008, 06:51 PM
Although I don't like the swipe this guy takes at us who hear differences between speaker cables this article seems to make sense and he shows why a damping factor difference of 40 or over can be heard. Also, some useful info on speaker interaction and keeping the DF in perspective.

http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/mdampingfactor.html

Just another take. I couldn't really follow the Audioholic article but I have a hard time accepting his result that amp output impedance doesn't really effect anything.

pixelthis
05-20-2008, 11:03 PM
Pix, the Emotivas are spec'd at 200 DF, not 100. Not sure why you keep saying that.

The Mac does truly have a DF of 40. Even the newer Mac's only have a DF of 100.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/downloads/product_downloads/power-amp-compare.pdf

And 40 is precisely where many people scientifically proved DF to reach the threshold of audible significance, beyond which differences in frequency response, improved motor control, and time decay didn't improve as the DF approached infinity. It's not a linear curve by any means. Beyond 40, the number just gets higher and fools people into believing a bigger number = better, but the higher DF's don't translate into improved performance.

DF was proven to be largely irrelevant spec my Thiel, Small, Toole, and hundreds of others even back in the 70's. As an old timer, I would have thought you'd known that. :)

I have owned an Outlaw mono-bloc amp in the past- not bad at all and they're a solid company. A good friend of mine has several pieces of Outlaw gear, including that amp you mention. It's not bad, definitely better than a receiver, but it doesn't have the power or headroom I wanted and sound quality deteriorated at volumes I would typically reach because of this. Think you'd do well to buy their stuff to augment your existing amp. But if a DF of 200 is scaring you away then here's some good reading for ya that explains why it shouldn't:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm

Pay particular attention to the diminished returns amps exhibit when DF is greater than 20. Audibly indistinguishable!

Best of luck!


I have just found that the larger the df, the better the amp, is all.
And I read the DF of a 100 on the Emotiva web site, let me doublecheck it.
And just about any seperate amp is better than a receiver, didnt used to be that way but its that way now.:1:

kexodusc
05-21-2008, 04:02 AM
I have just found that the larger the df, the better the amp, is all.
And I read the DF of a 100 on the Emotiva web site, let me doublecheck it.
Could be a indirect relationship here - usually low DF solid state amps are fairly modest in other specs as well, power, THD, signal to noise, crosstalk, etc and aren't very good. Common receivers in other words. But many higher end amp manufacturers like Rotel, MacIntosh, Adcom, Cambridge Audio, etc still fall below 200 and even 100 from time to time and are very good.

You have to remember the series impedance of speaker wire between the amp and speaker is far greater than the output impedance of an amplifier, so the effective damping factor the speaker sees is going to be close to that number.

hermanv
05-21-2008, 04:34 AM
Damping factor is just the ratio of amplifier output impedance to load impedance.

An amplifier with a DF of 1 would have an 8 Ohm output impedance, a damping factor of 100 would be a 0.08 Ohm output impedance.

So this leads to several conclusions:

Very low damping factors don't help because the speaker cable resistance stops the final number from being much better than maybe 200.
With a resistive load, damping factor has zero effect on frequency response.
With a complex load such as a speaker or crossover, damping factor will affect different different speakers in different ways.
The only way to get really high damping factors is to build amplifiers with lots of feedback. Feedback isn't automatically bad, but can certainly lead to serious problems, most modern designs are low feedback designs. There are exceptions.

The reason that higher damping factors usually improve the bass response is because the voice coil in a woofer and the woofer magnet form a voltage generator. As the woofer cone moves back to it's rest position, it generates a small voltage. Damping factor fights this voltage thereby "damping" woofer movement.

GMichael
05-21-2008, 05:17 AM
You, sir, are no audiophile.

I keep my speakers 12 feet apart. Doesn't that count for something?

basite
05-21-2008, 06:31 AM
I find that hard to beleive.
four hundred maybe.
My Intergra has one of 40, but monoblocks and paired seperates typically have DF of
200 to 400.
The emotivas 100 or so is okay, but outlaw has DF of 200 or so, typically:1:


it is true.
(it does say 'higher than 40'...)

even their $33k monoblocks (the MC2KW) have a DF of 'only' 100. it's like Kex said...

and as I said, the Manley amp I mentioned had a DF of 5. and I found it sounding very very good.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Mr Peabody
05-21-2008, 04:46 PM
Herman, you say DF has no effect on frequency response yet you say the higher it goes the better it controls the woofer, so does DF contribute to any audible difference? I would think it would have to be audible between low and high DF if there is a control relation. This could explain why the guy from Audioholics shows no change in frequency response while the guy from the article I found says there is at audible difference between low and high DF. I believe whether DF makes an audible difference was the crux of the DF discussion.

If there is an audible difference this could be one factor that would account for some difference between cables. I don't know what magic Transparent puts in their networks but the improvement in bass response when using them over average speaker wire was definitely apparent.

kexodusc
05-21-2008, 04:57 PM
If there is an audible difference this could be one factor that would account for some difference between cables. I don't know what magic Transparent puts in their networks but the improvement in bass response when using them over average speaker wire was definitely apparent.

Don't think anyone ever disputed DF has impact on woofer control, or that it can result in audible differences to a certain point (the relationship definitely isn't linear, so diminishing returns apply here)...but the series impedance from even 12 gauge speaker wire in short lengths is 10-20 times the output impedance of modern solid state amplifiers and perhaps the greater cause of these difference. That's the thing. You could have an amp with a DF of infinity, but when you connect it to a 14 gauge speaker wire at 8 - 10 ft length you probably getting a DF between 100 and 200 anyway...so the amp's DF isn't significant but the speaker wire impedance is...maybe?

I have yet to experience audible differences in cables (aside from gauge/distance issues), but I do believe they exist. I'd even suggest Mr. P, that lower resistance or impedance cables probably could account for audible differences in sound quality. I dunno if frequency response deviations of 1 dB would be obtainable, but I suspect slight audible differences in the time domain might?

hermanv
05-21-2008, 06:03 PM
Herman, you say DF has no effect on frequency response yet you say the higher it goes the better it controls the woofer, so does DF contribute to any audible difference? I would think it would have to be audible between low and high DF if there is a control relation. This could explain why the guy from Audioholics shows no change in frequency response while the guy from the article I found says there is at audible difference between low and high DF. I believe whether DF makes an audible difference was the crux of the DF discussion.

If there is an audible difference this could be one factor that would account for some difference between cables. I don't know what magic Transparent puts in their networks but the improvement in bass response when using them over average speaker wire was definitely apparent.I believe there will be little effect on frequency response (depending on the crossover design). But frequency response is a pretty poor way to describe how a woofer sounds. Yes, low frequency extension is one descriptor of a woofers sound, but harmonic richness and speed (as in for example a waterfall plot) will change the sound of woofer without necessarily changing the frequency response in any significant way.

What I'm trying to say is that resolution and tautness will be probably be improved with a somewhat higher damping factor. When a band puts a pillow in a kick drum, the effect is quite obvious, but the low frequency limit of the drum probably hasn't changed, it just returns to it's resting position quicker.

I seem to be having trouble expressing my point, if the above isn't clear, let me know, I'll try and do better.

Mr Peabody
05-21-2008, 06:23 PM
I get what you are saying but I feel the writer of the Audioholics article was not entirely correct to say DF couldn't account for the difference between tubes and solid state. Some of today's tube gear is doing better at bass control but not to the extent likes of Krell or Pass amps can do. High current equals control and a higher damping factor increases current.

A receiver may do frequency response of 10 to 100kHz yet not have the sound quality of an amp with a more narrow response, so something can be said for the ability or method of delivery of said FR?

hermanv
05-21-2008, 09:59 PM
The problem with tube amps and DF is that it takes a large and powerful amp to match a mid-power SS amp. One of those 300 to 600 Watt monoblocks should have great damping. They need to be large because tube plate resistance is high even through an output transformer. Putting a number of tubes in parallel lowers the plate resistance.

I can't afford one, but I admit I'm curious.

blackraven
05-23-2008, 10:45 PM
I am very intrigued by the Emotiva XPA-2 2ch amp ($799) putting out 500wpc at 4ohms and how it would sound with my magnepans. I just might have to buy one and give it a try since there is a 30 day trial. I've been considering the B&K reference 200.2 amp and the Parasound Halo, but from the reviews of the Emotiva amps, they may be the way to go.

GMichael
05-24-2008, 08:41 AM
I am very intrigued by the Emotiva XPA-2 2ch amp ($799) putting out 500wpc at 4ohms and how it would sound with my magnepans. I just might have to buy one and give it a try since there is a 30 day trial. I've been considering the B&K reference 200.2 amp and the Parasound Halo, but from the reviews of the Emotiva amps, they may be the way to go.

Don't forget to tell the rest of us how it turns out. I'd love to know how far their quality can take us.

blackraven
05-24-2008, 10:11 AM
I dont think the XPA-2 is available yet but you can preoreder it. I think I will wait until there are a couple of professional reviews. If its the real deal and compares favorably to $2K amps I'll buy one and then get a nice tube pre-amp to go along with it.

If you check the web site it says this amp has 120,000uf capacitance but it is in error and Emotiva say it will be at least 60,0000 maybe higher when it is released.

kexodusc
05-24-2008, 12:48 PM
I dont think the XPA-2 is available yet but you can preoreder it. I think I will wait until there are a couple of professional reviews. If its the real deal and compares favorably to $2K amps I'll buy one and then get a nice tube pre-amp to go along with it.

If you check the web site it says this amp has 120,000uf capacitance but it is in error and Emotiva say it will be at least 60,0000 maybe higher when it is released.
I have every intention of buying an XPA-2 now, but I've got a few other things on the "to get" list first. Could be a while...let me know how you make out if you go that route.
I can't speak to the XPA-2 but if it's price is justified by its comparative performance to the LPA-1 I have little doubt it will be nothing less than a more cost effective option to Parasound and the likes. Those Maggies like current too, don't they...