News Flash: Flyers get screwed in Montreal. [Archive]

bobsticks

04-25-2008, 02:28 AM

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 03:37 AM

Swish

04-25-2008, 03:56 AM

Easy big guy..The goal was fair and clean, below the shoulder and not above the crossbar. Has been that way since the dawn of time, Brian Propp scored a few like that in his day.

And let's not forget the Flyers only exist because of the worst non-call in the history of not just hockey, but sport! on their second goal in Game 7 vs Washington. Directly hitting a player into an opposing goaling is either incidental contact (whistle play blown dead - see Washington vs Tampa Bay's last game of the regular season for example of the right call) OR goaltender interference if the ref chooses to use his discretion and determine the call was deliberate (which he could have done in this case).

The game should never have gone to overtime. Didn't see Flyers fans crying about that one.

The Flyers will have to be a lot better. They can't count on Patrice Briseboise scoring goals for them in every game, or the slow Montreal clock-keeper letting time run after icing and thus sparing the Flyers of another sure bet goal against...

I need them to win this series or at least take it 7 - I got Briere and Lupul on my pool team.

Probably a biased Montreal station. I saw the replay from behind the net and the stick was clearly above the cross-bar, which is the gauge for a high-stick. How they can say it wasn't is beyond me.

Then the 'tripping' call that wasn't tripping, but a shoulder to shoulder hit that was clean, and the get a power play at the end of the game, pull the goalie for a two-man advantage and get the tying goal.

Yes, the Flyers got lucky on that call against the Caps, but the Flyers were called for the same type of penalty in an earlier game and the replay showed the same thing; the player was pushed into the goalie. The ruling was that the player didn't make and attempt to stop and, therefore, was partly responsible, so if it works one way, it should work the other.
Sorry dude, no sale.

Swish

Swish

04-25-2008, 03:59 AM

Welcome to the new, obstruction-free NHL. I know an old timer like you who probably played a few games sans headgear doesn't think much of the new rules, but the reduction of clutching and grabbing and tripping is good for the game...

...and let's set the record straight on the "highstick".It's a measure of safety as well as height---the height of the guy holding the stick not the delicate character between the pipes or the svelte figure skating d-man. It's not the Habs' fault they're so much more physically imposing than the "Broad Street Ballerinas".

Don't worry though, word is they're about to give Eric Lindros 17 mil a year to come out of retirement and center the new "Legion of Poon" line with Mayor Nutter and Rosie O'Donnell.

I'll meet ya down at the corner of Market and 61st for my asskicking. I'll be the one with the facepaint and the midgets.

...when the zebra is standing right near the play and your shoulder hits the player with the puck, that's not tripping. Sorry.

The Habs are more physically imposing? Nah, I don't buy it. You're a funny guy, but those two calls were even funnier...and contain a certain stench that smells like 'we can't let the #1 seed lose at home'. High sticking is now considered anything above 4 feet, which is the height of the cross-bar. Replays from behind the net show the stick making contact with the puck above the cross-bar. No goal. Period.

Swish

Duds

04-25-2008, 04:29 AM

Rich-n-Texas

04-25-2008, 04:48 AM

I feel for ya Swish. It sounds to me like the reputation they got 30 some years ago as the "Broad Street Bullies" lives on. But really, you can't expect officiating to be any different now than it was, say, 30 some years ago.

Geez, that's how long it's been since they last won the Cup?:idea:

Swish

04-25-2008, 04:50 AM

I can't stand watching a hockey game in Montreal. The soccer chant the crowd does is just plain sickening.

I'm fed up with the inconsistent calls that have been made in the playoffs so far too. I'm a Ranger fan, so I am guessing that the refs are goign to play a big part in the series against the Pens. God forbid you blow on the NHL poster child, Cindy Crosby, too hard and he falls over flailing away like a child.

...every time Brier has the puck. How annoying. As for Crosby, he has become the biggest diver in the league and I hope the zebras start calling him on it. Ovetchkin is getting nearly as bad too. Wussies. Both great players but diving takes some of the shine off of them.

Swish

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 05:01 AM

WTF did I just witness? First the gutless replay booth doesn't overturn a phony goal that was obviously hit with a high stick, then they call a 'tripping' penalty with less than 2 minutes to go that wasn't anywhere close to tripping, and Montreal miraculously ties the game about 30 seconds to play, then 'wins it' in overtime. They didn't win it, they were handed it. This is what makes me get totally sick of sports when officiating changes the outcome. I just want to put a hatchet through the frikin' door.

Think I'm bitter. You're damned right I'm bitter. Total ripoff. Watch the replay and see for yourself. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll hunt you down and kick your scrawny a<a>ss. If you disagree, you don't know squat about hockey.

Swish - one pissed-off Flyers fan. We got screwed.

The stick's heel made contact with the puck at just about crossbar level - at best, inconclusive evidence - and since the ref signalled a goal, not enough evidence to overturn it. Every opinion on the matter I've seen - albeit only Canadian channels, but even Mike Milbury on TSN, said they got the call right. Remember Swish, you have to look at the part of the stick that made contact with the puck and where that part of the stick was in relation to the crossbar.

The penalty was questionnable, but what hockey penalty isn't? He clearly stuck out his knee when he realized he wasn't going to get a big enough piece of Kovalev.

All-in-all I thought it was a very well refereed game - 2 penalties called against each team - 1 power play goal each. It was a badly-played game overall, passes were not very crisp, some questionnable decision making on both ends and both teams got breaks on lucky bounces resulting in goals - Flyers actually got two. I think the better team, the team that created more chances, won.

And I agree with Kexodusc - for a Flyer fan to complain about referees after being handed Game 7 against the Caps - bad kharma dude. Anyway you should worry more about the lack of offense created by your team in general, and how your slow defence is going to handle the Montreal forwards, especially the Kostitsyn, Kostitsyn, Plekanec line, who won't be facing Timonen / Coburn, instead of throwing out red herring arguments about bad referee calls.

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 05:02 AM

.. High sticking is now considered anything above 4 feet, which is the height of the cross-bar. Replays from behind the net show the stick making contact with the puck above the cross-bar. No goal. Period.

Swish

Flyers have never bothered to play within the rules, so I'm not surprised their fans don't know them...there is no 4 foot rule and never has been - it's always been height of shoulder for high stick, and point of contact where the puck hits the stick for goals.
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule61.html

Pay careful attention to (C)
"An apparent goal scored by an attacking player when any part of his stick makes contact with the puck above the height of the crossbar of the goal frame shall not be allowed. The determining factor is where the puck makes contact with the stick. If the puck makes contact with the stick below the level of the crossbar and enters the goal, this goal shall be allowed".

You're allowed to swing your stick from overhead as long as the contact is made at or below the bar.
...and look at the replay again. No evidence that the stick was higher than the crossbar at the point the puck makes contact. It is therefore either at bar level or below. The best angle I've seen is behind the net - we see the top of the blade is above the bar during the swing motion, the bottom of the blade where the stick and puck make contact is clearly below. Even the Montreal hating brass in Toronto reviewed the call (for quite some time) and couldn't find any evidence the stick wasn't below the bar. Good call.

Yes, the Flyers got lucky on that call against the Caps, but the Flyers were called for the same type of penalty in an earlier game and the replay showed the same thing; the player was pushed into the goalie. The ruling was that the player didn't make and attempt to stop and, therefore, was partly responsible, so if it works one way, it should work the other.
Sorry dude, no sale.

I don't recall seeing a goal disputed/disallowed earlier in the series because of the incidental contact rule, and at any rate two wrongs don't make a right. But if a penalty call was made againt the Flyers as you mention in that earlier case, then the two plays are completley different - in Game 7 the defender was facing forward and had no chance to react to avoid the goalie - so no penalty on the defender could be called. It shouldn't have been a penalty anyway unless the ref deemed the hit to be interference on the defender (but he puck was approaching the goal so I can't see that - we let them battle), but the play should have been blown dead via the incidental contact rule. Now, if they called a penalty for the hit, I'd be equally disappointed in the call - it was a clean hit, but probably not interference because of the puck passing through the area.

Anyway, one resulted in a goal that directly influenced the result of the series, the other one did not and certainly never made headlines...

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 05:11 AM

...every time Brier has the puck. How annoying. As for Crosby, he has become the biggest diver in the league and I hope the zebras start calling him on it. Ovetchkin is getting nearly as bad too. Wussies. Both great players but diving takes some of the shine off of them.

Swish
Crosby yes, Ovechkin yes. Nobody will ever top the Sabre's trio of Briere and JP Dumont and Afinegenov for diving though. I was surprised the Flyers went after Briere after all the comments they made about him in previous years, but I think they struck out with Drury and settled.

As for habs fans...they're sorryest bunch of band-wagoners I've ever met. When the going's good they are unquestionably the loudest in the league, but when times are tough they'll eat their own like a praying mantis. Last year Kovalev was synonymous with Satan and this year he's selling cheeseball hockey DVD's. I live in Habs country - next to the Leafs winning the Cup, the Habs winning would rank up there as worst things to ever happen to me...

I dunno what the Flyers are missing. Their not a soft team, but their not playing to their size advantage for some reason. Respecting the speed of their opponents a bit too much. They've got to goon up Kovalev and those Kostitsyn sisters. Kovalev gets rattled and the refs just wait for him to pull off another fake diving stunt like the 94 Rangers run to give him an unsportsmanlike...

Anyway, Biron has always rebounded from bad games throughout his career, certainly did in the last round, and should be ready for game 2. This one is going 6 at least.

Duds

04-25-2008, 05:17 AM

Crosby is pathetic, i cant stand that kid. Big crybaby who isnt man enough to stick up for himself. I cant stand malkin either. The refs have to let the Rangers play their game or the Pens win the series. Rangers have to be smart though and recognize how the refs are calling the games.

I'd like nothing more than to see the Flyers beat the Habs.

Crosby yes, Ovechkin yes. Nobody will ever top the Sabre's trio of Briere and JP Dumont and Afinegenov for diving though. I was surprised the Flyers went after Briere after all the comments they made about him in previous years, but I think they struck out with Drury and settled.

As for habs fans...they're sorryest bunch of band-wagoners I've ever met. When the going's good they are unquestionably the loudest in the league, but when times are tough they'll eat their own like a praying mantis. Last year Kovalev was synonymous with Satan and this year he's selling cheeseball hockey DVD's. I live in Habs country - next to the Leafs winning the Cup, the Habs winning would rank up there as worst things to ever happen to me...

I dunno what the Flyers are missing. Their not a soft team, but their not playing to their size advantage for some reason. Respecting the speed of their opponents a bit too much. They've got to goon up Kovalev and those Kostitsyn sisters. Kovalev gets rattled and the refs just wait for him to pull off another fake diving stunt like the 94 Rangers run to give him an unsportsmanlike...

Anyway, Biron has always rebounded from bad games throughout his career, certainly did in the last round, and should be ready for game 2. This one is going 6 at least.

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 05:27 AM

As for habs fans...they're sorryest bunch of band-wagoners I've ever met. When the going's good they are unquestionably the loudest in the league, but when times are tough they'll eat their own like a praying mantis.

I hear this all the time, and don't understand it. Hab fans fill the arena every night and it is known as the best crowd in hockey - yeah if they are playing like shiite, the crowd, press, fans, community let's them know it - doesn't mean that we're "off the bandwagon". I've been a fan since I was 10 years old - never seen a bandwagon , don't know what it looks like, and have never either been on it or off it; but i have allways realistically assessed the qualitry of hockey the team on the ice is delivering. So, what's wrong with that?

As for Kovalev and his relationship with the fans this ytear versus last - did you see him play last year? Whatever criticism he got, he deserved. This year he's a different player, and what's wrong with showing our appreciation for a guy turning his career around?

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 06:00 AM

I hear this all the time, and don't understand it. Hab fans fill the arena every night and it is known as the best crowd in hockey - yeah if they are playing like shiite, the crowd, press, fans, community let's them know it - doesn't mean that we're "off the bandwagon". I've been a fan since I was 10 years old - never seen a bandwagon , don't know what it looks like, and have never either been on it or off it; but i have allways realistically assessed the qualitry of hockey the team on the ice is delivering. So, what's wrong with that?

As for Kovalev and his relationship with the fans this ytear versus last - did you see him play last year? Whatever criticism he got, he deserved. This year he's a different player, and what's wrong with showing our appreciation for a guy turning his career around?
The best 3 crowds I've been too are Calgary, Edmonton (those two tie, and are far beyond all others) and Minnesota. I went to a Habs game this year and we were asked to sit down be quiet by the guys behind us!!!

Well I won't call ALL Habs fans bandwagoners, but they run their own out of town like nobody else. Roy, Samsonov, Brisebois, etc. Every team has their goats, but if you're the guy in Montreal they crucify you. Maybe that's "passion" but it needs to be focused better. They have a tough time attracting free agents because of it. I think the media has a lot to do with it - far beyond cruel.
But look at the sad sack Leafs. Every year those fans really think they're just 1 player away from the Cup and they love them, every year, unconditionally...everyone knows they have no chance of winning - except Leafs fans. They won't accept it. That's passion, in the positive sense, as much as I hate them (and at times pity them).

I'll be honest too - being razzed daily by Habs fans the last month has soured me on them so I'm venting a bit here but I would think Montreal should always be the centre of the hockey universe, not Toronto - at least Montreal has the history and dignity to back it up. The fans only rally when the going's good though. That's only conditional support.

Swish

04-25-2008, 06:40 AM

Flyers have never bothered to play within the rules, so I'm not surprised their fans don't know them...there is no 4 foot rule and never has been - it's always been height of shoulder for high stick, and point of contact where the puck hits the stick for goals.
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule61.html

Pay careful attention to (C)
"An apparent goal scored by an attacking player when any part of his stick makes contact with the puck above the height of the crossbar of the goal frame shall not be allowed. The determining factor is where the puck makes contact with the stick. If the puck makes contact with the stick below the level of the crossbar and enters the goal, this goal shall be allowed".

You're allowed to swing your stick from overhead as long as the contact is made at or below the bar.
...and look at the replay again. No evidence that the stick was higher than the crossbar at the point the puck makes contact. It is therefore either at bar level or below. The best angle I've seen is behind the net - we see the top of the blade is above the bar during the swing motion, the bottom of the blade where the stick and puck make contact is clearly below. Even the Montreal hating brass in Toronto reviewed the call (for quite some time) and couldn't find any evidence the stick wasn't below the bar. Good call..

Let's just say you misunderstood my comment. The cross bar is 4 feet in height, and I was only referring to high-sticking in regard to the goal that was allowed, not high-sticking in general, so you're not exactly wrong, and neither was I, and I agree that it's only if the stick makes contact above the crossbar, and from the replays I saw, it did. Believe what you want to believe. Otherwise, the should-height is the gauge in other parts of the ice.

I need your help with something though; what do you when you said "The Flyers have never played within the rules', I have no idea what you meant, so please give me some examples. Hard to believe that one team can play under a different set of rules, so please enlighten me.

Swish

Swish

04-25-2008, 06:48 AM

The stick's heel made contact with the puck at just about crossbar level - at best, inconclusive evidence - and since the ref signalled a goal, not enough evidence to overturn it. Every opinion on the matter I've seen - albeit only Canadian channels, but even Mike Milbury on TSN, said they got the call right. Remember Swish, you have to look at the part of the stick that made contact with the puck and where that part of the stick was in relation to the crossbar.

The penalty was questionnable, but what hockey penalty isn't? He clearly stuck out his knee when he realized he wasn't going to get a big enough piece of Kovalev.

All-in-all I thought it was a very well refereed game - 2 penalties called against each team - 1 power play goal each. It was a badly-played game overall, passes were not very crisp, some questionnable decision making on both ends and both teams got breaks on lucky bounces resulting in goals - Flyers actually got two. I think the better team, the team that created more chances, won.

And I agree with Kexodusc - for a Flyer fan to complain about referees after being handed Game 7 against the Caps - bad kharma dude. Anyway you should worry more about the lack of offense created by your team in general, and how your slow defence is going to handle the Montreal forwards, especially the Kostitsyn, Kostitsyn, Plekanec line, who won't be facing Timonen / Coburn, instead of throwing out red herring arguments about bad referee calls.

A few pale ales and a couple of questionable calls and I got a few of you lathered up pretty well. I'm quite proud actually.

The Flyers played 3 games in 4 nights and in three different cities, and still took the Habs into overtime, so give them credit. They went from worst in the NHL last year to a playoff team, so give them credit. Just what do you mean the Flyers need to generate more offense? They out-shot Montreal in the game, so they were right there but for a few breaks, and if not for the brutal week they've had, probably would have been a bit sharper.

Speed is an issue, I will agree, but hey, like I told you, I don't expect the Flyers to win this series, I just thought they should have won this game and it would have made things very interesting.

Swish - stirring up trouble

3-LockBox

04-25-2008, 06:52 AM

Rich-n-Texas

04-25-2008, 06:57 AM

Stars vs. Sharks tonite! GO STARS!

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 07:17 AM

Let's just say you misunderstood my comment. The cross bar is 4 feet in height, and I was only referring to high-sticking in regard to the goal that was allowed, not high-sticking in general, so you're not exactly wrong, and neither was I, and I agree that it's only if the stick makes contact above the crossbar, and from the replays I saw, it did. Believe what you want to believe. Otherwise, the should-height is the gauge in other parts of the ice.

I need your help with something though; what do you when you said "The Flyers have never played within the rules', I have no idea what you meant, so please give me some examples. Hard to believe that one team can play under a different set of rules, so please enlighten me.

Swish

See Boulerice, Downie, Cote, Hartnell, Jones for the 2008 answer to your question...

The Flyers got their nickname for their notorious toughness and willingness to break the rules. This is a philosophy that continues to exist in that organization. It's been effective in the past. Bobby Clarke is a legend in in Philadelphia (and even more so in Canada) for his willingness to break the rules when it would benefit the team in the long-run (see 72 Summit Series for more detail). I'm not criticizing the culture, I rather enjoy it. Just had a good chuckle when I "misunderstood" your comment about high sticking being defined by 4 feet (which upon review in the context of goal scoring, I admit you were correct). If you're a Flyers fan, don't insult me by pretending you don't know what I'm talking about. Ask any hockey fan what team breaks the rules the most, and the majority will say the Flyers....

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 07:23 AM

A few pale ales and a couple of questionable calls and I got a few of you lathered up pretty well. I'm quite proud actually.

The Flyers played 3 games in 4 nights and in three different cities, and still took the Habs into overtime, so give them credit.

The NHL really dropped the ball with the schedule for this series. San Jose got the extra day for their match against Dallas, despite advancing the same day as the Flyers. This really stuff really bugs me.. The playoffs are a marathon and so much is at stake that no team should be disadvantage by fatigue due to unreasonable scheduling. It's one thing when both teams have the same schedule, at least that's fair. But that extra day for Montreal was huge, and in a close game nobody will argue it wasn't a big factor.

Swish

04-25-2008, 07:27 AM

See Boulerice, Downie, Cote, Hartnell, Jones for the 2008 answer to your question...

The Flyers got their nickname for their notorious toughness and willingness to break the rules. This is a philosophy that continues to exist in that organization. It's been effective in the past. Bobby Clarke is a legend in in Philadelphia (and even more so in Canada) for his willingness to break the rules when it would benefit the team in the long-run (see 72 Summit Series for more detail). I'm not criticizing the culture, I rather enjoy it. Just had a good chuckle when I "misunderstood" your comment about high sticking being defined by 4 feet (which upon review in the context of goal scoring, I admit you were correct). If you're a Flyers fan, don't insult me by pretending you don't know what I'm talking about. Ask any hockey fan what team breaks the rules the most, and the majority will say the Flyers....

...a couple of them were not blatant or even intentional. Downie is a kid and screwed up, but allow him that one mistake. Hartnell is tough, not dirty, ditto Jones. There are plenty of dirty players in the league, and each team has at least one or two. The Flyers paid dearly for those mistakes, but they're history.

But don't say they 'never play by the rules'. If that's the case, any team that commits a penalty isn't playing by the rules. Only if they're not caught or penalized, kind of like Patriots taping other teams....uh oh, I think I just opened up some more old wounds. :hand:

Swish - have a fun day

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 07:39 AM

...a couple of them were not blatant or even intentional. Downie is a kid and screwed up, but allow him that one mistake. Hartnell is tough, not dirty, ditto Jones. There are plenty of dirty players in the league, and each team has at least one or two. The Flyers paid dearly for those mistakes, but they're history.

But don't say they 'never play by the rules'. If that's the case, any team that commits a penalty isn't playing by the rules. Only if they're not caught or penalized, kind of like Patriots taping other teams....uh oh, I think I just opened up some more old wounds. :hand:

Swish - have a fun day

Semantics. The Flyers consistently rank near the top of the league in PIM's, top 5 or better almost every year, with the odd year where they might fall in the middle. Consistency is the message here though, it reflects the philosophy and strategy of the organization.
Now I'll be the first to admit breaking the rules can be an effective part of the game ( I even defended Hartnell, Cote, and even Chris SImon here at ar.com) and I certainly lead my team in PIM's most years...but the merits of rule breaking is another discussion, and we've spent enough time discussing a comment that was intended as a friendly rib at you, not a scathing criticism of the team.

ForeverAutumn

04-25-2008, 07:46 AM

I went to a Habs game this year and we were asked to sit down be quiet by the guys behind us!!!

That's what happens when you heckle the home team. :hand:

But look at the sad sack Leafs. Every year those fans really think they're just 1 player away from the Cup and they love them, every year, unconditionally...everyone knows they have no chance of winning - except Leafs fans. They won't accept it. That's passion, in the positive sense, as much as I hate them (and at times pity them).

Huh? Everyone else is just dead wrong! :prrr:

The only thing I dislike more than the Habs is the Habs fans (present company excluded ;)). GO FLYERS!

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 07:47 AM

.Downie is a kid and screwed up, but allow him that one mistake.

Okay, Downie may be only 21 years old, but as someone who followed his junior career, it's not just one mistake. We're getting close to a baker's dozen, each under media scrutiny, each incident more reckless than the last. Sucker punching a guy in the back of the head a la Todd Bertuzzi (minus the follow through face plant), sucker-cross-checking his own teammate in the mouth because the teammate refused to partake in his poorly conceived man-sex hazing ritual, and too many hits from behind to count to name a few. The guy is going seriously hurt someone soon.

Duds

04-25-2008, 07:58 AM

you defended Chris Simon??

Semantics. The Flyers consistently rank near the top of the league in PIM's, top 5 or better almost every year, with the odd year where they might fall in the middle. Consistency is the message here though, it reflects the philosophy and strategy of the organization.
Now I'll be the first to admit breaking the rules can be an effective part of the game ( I even defended Hartnell, Cote, and even Chris SImon here at ar.com) and I certainly lead my team in PIM's most years...but the merits of rule breaking is another discussion, and we've spent enough time discussing a comment that was intended as a friendly rib at you, not a scathing criticism of the team.

Swish

04-25-2008, 08:02 AM

Semantics. The Flyers consistently rank near the top of the league in PIM's, top 5 or better almost every year, with the odd year where they might fall in the middle. Consistency is the message here though, it reflects the philosophy and strategy of the organization.
Now I'll be the first to admit breaking the rules can be an effective part of the game ( I even defended Hartnell, Cote, and even Chris SImon here at ar.com) and I certainly lead my team in PIM's most years...but the merits of rule breaking is another discussion, and we've spent enough time discussing a comment that was intended as a friendly rib at you, not a scathing criticism of the team.

...and my whole point of this thread was to see how many rabid hockey fans would come out of the woodwork and give me a thorough roasting. It worked pretty well, dontcha think? I was really ticked at those calls though, especially the late penalty.

I was born and raised in Flyer country, so I'm a fan, good or bad. I do like hard-hitting hockey, although I never played more than pick-up stuff (just wasn't a popular participant sport when I was growing up), but I played the post in basketball and enjoyed the back-and-forth punishment that was part of the game. I was never a dirty player and don't condone it, but I stood my ground and got into my share of scrapes. All the widows have forgiven me by this time.

Swish

ForeverAutumn

04-25-2008, 08:16 AM

you defended Chris Simon??

He didn't defend Chris Simon so much as he defended the punishment. Unless he's referring to a different thread. http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=25334

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 08:27 AM

The best 3 crowds I've been too are Calgary, Edmonton (those two tie, and are far beyond all others) and Minnesota. I went to a Habs game this year and we were asked to sit down be quiet by the guys behind us!!!.

I'm not just spewing my opinion, I'm quoting 1. Recent Hockey News poll of players voting Bell Centre as the best building/best crowd in the NHL. 2. Jim Hughson, who spends most of his time broadcasting Western games called the Bell Centre crowd the best in hockey.

Well I won't call ALL Habs fans bandwagoners, but they run their own out of town like nobody else. Roy, Samsonov, Brisebois, etc.

Roy ran himself out of town - when he told the team president in the middle of a game that he'd played his last game in Montreal. Samsonov? Please - Chicago ran him out of town pretty good, as did Edmonton - the guy stunk up the joint everywhere for the last couple of years. Brisebois - you might have a point there.

But look at the sad sack Leafs. Every year those fans really think they're just 1 player away from the Cup and they love them, every year, unconditionally...everyone knows they have no chance of winning - except Leafs fans. They won't accept it. That's passion, in the positive sense, as much as I hate them (and at times pity them).

I'll take the results that the Habs fans additude seems to produce rather than The Leafs. Look the Habs have mostly been out of the playoffs more than in since for the last 15 years or so, and I don't see interest in hockey waning, or any empty seats at the Bell Centre. And this bull about Toronto fans loving their team and players unconditionally is just that - bull. Andrew Raycroft - sure he never got criticized, Larry Murphy - a hall of famer - was run out of town. Oh, John Ferguson, Jr. he wasn't crucified in the papers - nor Mats or McKay or Kubina for not waving their no trade - nope no criticism there.

I'll be honest too - being razzed daily by Habs fans the last month has soured me on them so I'm venting a bit here but I would think Montreal should always be the centre of the hockey universe, not Toronto - at least Montreal has the history and dignity to back it up.

See, now you're making sense,

The fans only rally when the going's good though. That's only conditional support. Yeah, unlike say Washington where the arena is empty for 90 percent of the year and fills up in the playoffs...maybe. Please show me these towns where fans rally when their team is in 12th place Woohoo, we're #12, we're #12.

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 08:36 AM

Yeah, unlike say Washington where the arena is empty for 90 percent of the year and fills up in the playoffs...maybe. Please show me these towns where fans rally when their team is in 12th place Woohoo, we're #12, we're #12.

I mentioned the Leafs....

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 08:47 AM

Just what do you mean the Flyers need to generate more offense? They out-shot Montreal in the game, so they were right there but for a few breaks, and if not for the brutal week they've had, probably would have been a bit sharper.

I think the shots ended up even. Notwithstanding that fact, Biron by far had the tougher saves to make - not to mention two posts, a penalty shot, at least 2 partial breakaways. I can't think of any really tough save that Price had to make. Where was Richard's, where was Briere, where was Hartnell, even the power play was pretty anemic - even if they did score on a lucky bounce on a weak shot from the point that Price should have held on to. Overall, I didn't see much offense from The Flyers at all.

Having said that it was a MUCH tougher game than it should have been for The Habs, given the Flyers schedule. And yes, I do give the Flyers a ton of credit for the season they had, and most of it without Gagne - well done.

Speed is an issue, I will agree, but hey, like I told you, I don't expect the Flyers to win this series, I just thought they should have won this game and it would have made things very interesting.

Point well taken.

Look - looking at Montreal's season from a non-partisan perspective - they are probably not as good, long term as this season's results seem to indicate. They went the season without a major injury, they got a career year from a motivated Kovalev - next year, who knows? They found a franchise goaltender, and seem to be gelling as a group beyond their talent level. I expect them to beat the Flyers - because they match-up well, but next round I expect they'll lose.

But they do have what I think is the most underrated defence corp in the east -with more promising defencemen on the way; (Ryan McDonough, Emelin, Valentenko, David Fisher), they have that franchise goaltender for many a year to come, the Kostitsyn sisters (as somenopne called them) are actually pretty damn good, and Plekanec may be the most underrated centre in the East. So the future looks brighter than the recent past at least.

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 08:53 AM

I mentioned the Leafs....

So what - Leaf fans are in the streets, singing, honking horns, attaching flags to cars for finishing 12th? What have leaf fans done that earns them this rep as such unconditional fans? Following a loser? So what, every city in Canada does or has done that. So Montreal fans criticize their a bit more, so what? They still vote with their wallets.

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 09:17 AM

So what - Leaf fans are in the streets, singing, honking horns, attaching flags to cars for finishing 12th? What have leaf fans done that earns them this rep as such unconditional fans? Following a loser? So what, every city in Canada does or has done that. So Montreal fans criticize their a bit more, so what? They still vote with their wallets.
That's the point unconditional support is...UNCONDITIONAL! Real fans shouldn't need their team to do anything to "earn" support. Do you quit being a fan when they're bad?

Voting with the wallet in Canada for hockey doesn't mean as much as it might in other sports, say...baseball. Canada's a different animal when it comes to hockey, and city like Montreal that has something like 3.5 million people in the area should never be anything less than sold forever, regardless of team success. Small cities like Edmonton and Ottawa sell out more often than not on less than 1/3 the population of that city. In a far larger center, it's just simple math, 3 times the population, we'd expect 3 times the fanbase, even in bad years. Far beyond the arena capacity. There's tons of per capita support across the country. There's certain big percentage of people in Canada that are big time hockey fans. Some cities are just lucky enough to be bigger than others, and thus benefit from having more core fans buying tickets all the time. So, the fact the Bell Centre is sold out really doesn't speak to the level of support the fans give them.

I'm not knocking the guys who've had season tickets 30 years. I'm knocking the "all of a suddent I'm a Habs fan again" fans. Having spent considerable time in different US and Canadian hockey markets, I can assure you Canada has a lot more of these kind of fans. Loyal to a team only when they're winning. For whatever reason, I've experienced that more with Habs fans than any other team.

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 10:08 AM

That's the point unconditional support is...UNCONDITIONAL! Real fans shouldn't need their team to do anything to "earn" support. Do you quit being a fan when they're bad?

Voting with the wallet in Canada for hockey doesn't mean as much as it might in other sports, say...baseball. Canada's a different animal when it comes to hockey, and city like Montreal that has something like 3.5 million people in the area should never be anything less than sold forever, regardless of team success. Small cities like Edmonton and Ottawa sell out more often than not on less than 1/3 the population of that city. In a far larger center, it's just simple math, 3 times the population, we'd expect 3 times the fanbase, even in bad years. Far beyond the arena capacity. There's tons of per capita support across the country. There's certain big percentage of people in Canada that are big time hockey fans. Some cities are just lucky enough to be bigger than others, and thus benefit from having more core fans buying tickets all the time. So, the fact the Bell Centre is sold out really doesn't speak to the level of support the fans give them.

I'm not knocking the guys who've had season tickets 30 years. I'm knocking the "all of a suddent I'm a Habs fan again" fans. Having spent considerable time in different US and Canadian hockey markets, I can assure you Canada has a lot more of these kind of fans. Loyal to a team only when they're winning. For whatever reason, I've experienced that more with Habs fans than any other team.

I guess I don't really understand your point because its a concept that's foreign to me. Are true fans alowed to boo their team? Are they alowed to call some players over-paid bums if their playing bad? At what point does a fan become a bandwagon fan?

I'm a Habs fan. I was when I was 10, I was when I moved to Winnipeg, I was when I moved to Ottawa, and when I moved back to montreal. I was when they were winning cups and I was when they were missing the playoffs. If they miss the playoffs for 20 straight years - I'll styill be a fan in year 21. And if in year 21 they win the Stanley Cup I will probably be somewhat more enthusiastic than I was in the previous 20 years. I always was and always will be. Am I more enthusiastic today than I was last year? Yes. Am I talking more about the team? Yes. Are their some people around town who don't normally follow hockey who seem to be showing an interest. Yes. This is a natural occurence isn't it? Would this same thing not happen in Toronto.

I;m also a Minnesota Vikings Fan. Always have been, always will be. Never cheered for any other NFL team, never will. If the Vikes are a dominant team next year, do you think I'll show more interest in their week 16 game than I did last year - Yes I will? Does this make me a bandwagon fan?

Do you think the last decade hasn't seen a resurgensce in the enthusiasm of fans in Boston for the Patriots and the Red Sox? And even turned some people into fans of those teams? I think so.

I lived in Ottawa for the past 15 years and believe me Ottawa is different this year than it was last year...are they all bandwagon fans because you don't see as many car flags as you did last year? Don't be rediculous.

Are you a Leaf fan Kexodusc? What is it really, that makes a leaf fan better than a Habs fan? Because that's what you're saying. I really do want to understand. Let's take last year, both teams missed the playoffs. How did this unconditional devotion to their team manifest itself in Toronto differently than in Montreal? Please explainf it to me.

What I think is that this is just a cop out that fans of unsuccessful teams use to dump on successful teams - because ultimately they can't criticize the team so they take cheap shots at their fans, because they are an easy target. Fans are fans. They all ***** and complain when their team sucks - and the interest in the team is greater, when the team is doing well. That's sports.

Sorry to vent like this, but someone has stick-up for Montreal fans against all these hollier-than-thou fans from TO.

We're Toronto fans so we're better...BULL****E!

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 11:04 AM

I guess I don't really understand your point because its a concept that's foreign to me. Are true fans alowed to boo their team? Are they alowed to call some players over-paid bums if their playing bad? At what point does a fan become a bandwagon fan?

Booing is fine, to an extent when it's because they want the team to be better, it shows they care - it's when they stop caring altogether and disappear. Lion Tamer, I've got coworkers wearing Habs ties, and the likes razzing me about the Habs this year that I had no idea were even hockey fans. In the past they've cowered away, like they were embarrassed to admit they were Montreal fans. These are the bandwagon types. Quick to criticize (excessively) and then jump off the wagon so to speak when the team struggles. They stop supporting, deny their affection for the team (or hide it, whatever), then they win one playoff series and profess their love to any who will listen. Not all Habs fans are like this. I just experience this phenomenon more with Habs fans than any other team by a huge margin. Maybe the Habs just appeal to casual fans. I don't know.

Ha ha ha ha. No, I am NOT a Leafs fan. Never will be. I'm a Senators fan (loud and proud, no matter how much they suck) and you hit the nail on the head, I went to 7 games at Scotiabank Place this year, each visit the mood was more gloomy than the previous. But the building still sold out because the market is strong enough to endure...still, not as many flags, jerseys, etc. Sens fans fell off the bandwagon this year. Big time. But the reality is, the Sens have been a struggle their entire existence in most aspects, and the fans they have are used to disappointment. So when the going is bad, well, it's not like we've lost most of our fan base, just like thousands didn't come crawling out of the woods for the cup run last year.
It seems to come and go in bigger numbers for the Canadiens. And these part-time fans are usually the mouthiest and most annoying to talk to.

Hope that clears things up. I have nothing against the Habs in general, and respect any team's hard core supporters (even the Leafs).

Swish

04-25-2008, 11:06 AM

I'm a Habs fan. I was when I was 10, I was when I moved to Winnipeg, I was when I moved to Ottawa, and when I moved back to montreal. I was when they were winning cups and I was when they were missing the playoffs. If they miss the playoffs for 20 straight years - I'll styill be a fan in year 21. And if in year 21 they win the Stanley Cup I will probably be somewhat more enthusiastic than I was in the previous 20 years. I always was and always will be. Am I more enthusiastic today than I was last year? Yes. Am I talking more about the team? Yes. Are their some people around town who don't normally follow hockey who seem to be showing an interest. Yes. This is a natural occurence isn't it? Would this same thing not happen in Toronto.

...after that great 7th game win over the Bruins. Nice.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Swish

Ex Lion Tamer

04-25-2008, 11:30 AM

Booing is fine, to an extent when it's because they want the team to be better, it shows they care - it's when they stop caring altogether and disappear. Lion Tamer, I've got coworkers wearing Habs ties, and the likes razzing me about the Habs this year that I had no idea were even hockey fans. In the past they've cowered away, like they were embarrassed to admit they were Montreal fans. These are the bandwagon types. Quick to criticize (excessively) and then jump off the wagon so to speak when the team struggles. They stop supporting, deny their affection for the team (or hide it, whatever), then they win one playoff series and profess their love to any who will listen. Not all Habs fans are like this. I just experience this phenomenon more with Habs fans than any other team by a huge margin. Maybe the Habs just appeal to casual fans. I don't know.

Ha ha ha ha. No, I am NOT a Leafs fan. Never will be. I'm a Senators fan (loud and proud, no matter how much they suck) and you hit the nail on the head, I went to 7 games at Scotiabank Place this year, each visit the mood was more gloomy than the previous. But the building still sold out because the market is strong enough to endure...still, not as many flags, jerseys, etc. Sens fans fell off the bandwagon this year. Big time. But the reality is, the Sens have been a struggle their entire existence in most aspects, and the fans they have are used to disappointment. So when the going is bad, well, it's not like we've lost most of our fan base, just like thousands didn't come crawling out of the woods for the cup run last year.
It seems to come and go in bigger numbers for the Canadiens. And these part-time fans are usually the mouthiest and most annoying to talk to.

Hope that clears things up. I have nothing against the Habs in general, and respect any team's hard core supporters (even the Leafs).

The fact that you live in Ottawa, you do linve in Ottawa right? makes thinghs clear for me. I lived in Ottawa (Aylmer, actually) since '89 - moved back to Montreal (my home town) last summer. I heard this a lot from Ottawa fans - "Oh you Habs fans are all bandwaggoners". I think the dynamic in Ottawa is different because every Sens fans is a converted something fan, simply because of the age of the franchise. So I would think it's easy for a converted Sens fan to temporarily un-convert back to their first love when the going gets good. Ignore these people! To me you are born a fan of a certain team and nothing would make you change back and forth.

kexodusc

04-25-2008, 01:07 PM

The fact that you live in Ottawa, you do linve in Ottawa right? makes thinghs clear for me. I lived in Ottawa (Aylmer, actually) since '89 - moved back to Montreal (my home town) last summer. I heard this a lot from Ottawa fans - "Oh you Habs fans are all bandwaggoners". I think the dynamic in Ottawa is different because every Sens fans is a converted something fan, simply because of the age of the franchise. So I would think it's easy for a converted Sens fan to temporarily un-convert back to their first love when the going gets good. Ignore these people! To me you are born a fan of a certain team and nothing would make you change back and forth.
Don't live in Ottawa, I live in NB now, though I have family in Nepean (Ottawa) I visit and a few times a year I make it to Ottawa for work. Actually, there's finally a whole generation of Senators fans who aren't converted just old enough to buy beer! We're multiplying. :)
Work has tickets at the Bell Centre and Scotiabank Place (but not the Air Canada Centre because they're too much $$$). I generally like the atmosphere at the Bell Centre better, but it's not a huge difference anymore, Montreal has the Ole Ole Ole thing when they're winning...otherwise they're fairly similar.

The folk I'm talking about aren't fans of any other team, in fact you might not know they were a fan of any team during the season, except when they become outrageously patriotic when the Habs are winning. Every team has its bandwagoners, but for some reason Montreal has more.

bobsticks

04-26-2008, 08:03 AM

I appreciate the fact that I can take a day off and the rest of you will step to the plate and smack Swish around.

Swish

04-26-2008, 08:56 AM

I appreciate the fact that I can take a day off and the rest of you will step to the plate and smack Swish around.

They did a good job though, didn't they?

Swishdaddy

kexodusc

04-26-2008, 11:20 AM

They did a good job though, didn't they?

Swishdaddy

I'm just glad I can use this forum as proof to my Canadian friends that contrary to popular belief, there are knowledgeable hockey fans south of Michigan.

Swish

04-26-2008, 12:11 PM

I'm just glad I can use this forum as proof to my Canadian friends that contrary to popular belief, there are knowledgeable hockey fans south of Michigan.

I'm not exactly a student of the game, but I certainly know more than the average sports fan, at least I think I do. I don't have time to follow all the players and stats, but I know the rules and love to watch. I recall a study that indicated hockey requires more skill than any other sport, and I suppose it does since you're on skates and wielding a stick with people trying to take your head off.

I never had the chance to play organized hockey because it just wasn't very popular when I was a kid, coupled with a lack of facilities nearby, and I mean hockey facilities Bobsticks, before you jump on that comment. :ihih:

That was fun though, wasn't it?

Swishdaddy

Swish

04-26-2008, 12:16 PM

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">the NBA...its FANtastic

Go Pistons
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Did you ever think they would paste your beloved Pistons like that, especially after losing to them so badly in the second game?

I'm not a big NBA fan, but I like the way Mo has them playing, and it's a team effort with mostly younger players. They never looked this inspired when Iverson was there.

I don't think they'll make it past the second round and the East belongs to the Celtics this year, or so it would appear, but taking the Pistons out would be huge.

Go Sixers!

Swish