FCC fines retailers over TV labeling

[Smokey]

Federal regulators yesterday fined Sears, Wal-Mart, Best Buy and other retailers a combined $3.9 million for not properly using labels indicating that analog-only televisions will need to be retrofitted after the switch to digital-TV broadcasts next year.

An FCC rule, adopted last May, requires retailers to display or affix to analog-only TV equipment a "consumer alert" label that says it will not receive signals after the nationwide transition to digital broadcasts without a special converter box. The rule is meant to keep consumers from buying equipment that will not work after the digital switch on Feb. 17 next year.

The actions included a fine of $992,000 against Wal-Mart; about $1.1 million against Sears; $712,000 against Circuit City Stores; $296,000 against Target and $280,000 against Best Buy Co.

The FCC, which conducted numerous inspections last June, said it initially issued warnings to companies whose Web sites and stores across the country were in violation of the rule. The agency said it gave each company "a reasonable opportunity" to respond.

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3756

[Rich-n-Texas]

Good going FCC. :thumbsup: Strike one against short sighted greed mongers.

[pixelthis]

I havent seen too much of this.
I have seen analog sets, true, but they are always clearly labeled.
You buy a TV, you need to do a little research.
I have no sympathy for someone who doesnt get , in the blizzard of tv ADS,
newspaper articles, internet info, that a analog set is a bad idea.
not to mention that a analog only set exceeding 20 inches is really a dinosaur
these days.
wallfart has several SD tv sets, true, but I have seen that they have digital tuners:1:

[hermanv]

Good going FCC. :thumbsup: Strike one against short sighted greed mongers.Greed, yes, but I'm guessing they were using underpaid and under trained labor. Temporary workers with no benefits. Most of these kinds of workers can't make change, much less differentiate between analog and digital TV.

I just don't know why otherwise smart companies refuse to see the total costs of short sighted policies. Save some money on salaries, pay fines to the FCC. There are other hidden costs, returned goods because you were sold a MAC compatible computer gizmo for your PC, etc, etc. Once you burn a few customers it gets harder and harder to recover. I guess you just blame the economy and ask for corporate welfare.

Remember Comp USA? All the computer skills their workers had were anecdotal mostly from their friends. There was no training, 'course no one worked there longer than 6 months, so there was no cumulative on the job experience. See how well these policies worked for them?

As an EE I watched the rise of outsourcing electronic design. Not one project I was involved in (3 to China, 1 to India and 1 to Germany) met schedule or performance goals. Then at the last minute endless air travel in an attempt to fix the chaos.

One company flew all 30 Chinese engineers on their project to the US, put them up in hotels for 30 days while experienced US engineers redesigned, recovered and made their hopeless design work (the beauty of no overtime salaried US employees). None of those costs were budgeted to the engineering department who happily reported that development costs were down. Lying as a business model. That Co. is out of business, wonder why?

Please excuse the rant, but I think our country is suffering from a massive stupidity infection.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...As an EE I watched the rise of outsourcing electronic design. Not one project I was involved in (3 to China, 1 to India and 1 to Germany) met schedule or performance goals. Then at the last minute endless air travel in an attempt to fix the chaos...
Jeeezus! Mister, you must be psychic!

-OR-

You work for the same company I do.

-OR-

This country's Electronics manufacturing industry is in bigger trouble than I thought. :skep:

[hermanv]

Jeeezus! Mister, you must be psychic!

This country's Electronics manufacturing industry is in bigger trouble than I thought. :skep:I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it were just electronics. A country just like a family has to sell something to generate income. Some countries sell labor, some sell resources and others sell products.

Once upon a time the US made some of the most sought after cars in the world, sadly that's no longer true. In order to increase short term profit, you teach a country with low labor costs how to make cars. Then, guess what? They use the knowledge you accumulated over several decades to make their own cars.

Now Detroit is in trouble - duh. Of course the brilliant MBA graduates decided that they should not just make cars, they should handle their own credit to help sell cars. Since there was no corporate financial culture they got themselves in deep trouble. Decide what it is you want to do, get good at it, and thrive. How hard is that to understand?

No one could touch us for our electronic expertise. So what do we do, use our own talent to train others, now I can't think of any major electronic device made by the USA. Our dollar keeps getting devalued, largely because we have nothing to sell. We keep buying foreign goods that we used to make here. Those foreign countries end up with stacks and stacks of American dollars, this pretty much forces them to buy up either American real estate or American corporations, what else are they going to do with all those dollars? After all no one else wants those dollars either.

The Russian economy collapsed because they couldn't afford the cold war. Our economy might collapse because a few short sighted already rich and powerful families want even more. My home lost over 100 thousand in value the last couple of years, I see this as money stolen from me to enrich a few banks or Wall street firms.

How that for staying "on topic"?

[Feanor]

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it were just electronics. A country just like a family has to sell something to generate income. Some countries sell labor, some sell resources and others sell products.
...

No one could touch us for our electronic expertise. So what do we do, use our own talent to train others, now I can't think of any major electronic device made by the USA. Our dollar keeps getting devalued, largely because we have nothing to sell. We keep buying foreign goods that we used to make here. Those foreign countries end up with stacks and stacks of American dollars, this pretty much forces them to buy up either American real estate or American corporations, what else are they going to do with all those dollars? After all no one else wants those dollars either.
...

How that for staying "on topic"?

The other factor, one might add, are the foreign wars that US is fighting. They cost gigantic amounts of money, causing the US Fed to run huge deficits which require huge borrowing (a lot of it from ... China) which drives up interest rates up which precipitated the sub-prime fiasco. Life is so complicated.

The US economy would have been in trouble anyway, but that fool, GWB, hugely exacerbated and hastened the problem. Two big lies were (1) that Saddam's Iraq had something to do with Al-Queda, and (2) that he had WMD. Smart people doubted these things back in '02, (guess that leaves out HIlary), but Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld had to have their way despite all rationality.

[hermanv]

Weapons may be the last US growth industry. We outsell all others. Maybe the wars had more than one hidden motive?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it were just electronics. A country just like a family has to sell something to generate income. Some countries sell labor, some sell resources and others sell products.

Once upon a time the US made some of the most sought after cars in the world, sadly that's no longer true. In order to increase short term profit, you teach a country with low labor costs how to make cars. Then, guess what? They use the knowledge you accumulated over several decades to make their own cars.

Now Detroit is in trouble - duh. Of course the brilliant MBA graduates decided that they should not just make cars, they should handle their own credit to help sell cars. Since there was no corporate financial culture they got themselves in deep trouble. Decide what it is you want to do, get good at it, and thrive. How hard is that to understand?

No one could touch us for our electronic expertise. So what do we do, use our own talent to train others, now I can't think of any major electronic device made by the USA. Our dollar keeps getting devalued, largely because we have nothing to sell. We keep buying foreign goods that we used to make here. Those foreign countries end up with stacks and stacks of American dollars, this pretty much forces them to buy up either American real estate or American corporations, what else are they going to do with all those dollars? After all no one else wants those dollars either.

The Russian economy collapsed because they couldn't afford the cold war. Our economy might collapse because a few short sighted already rich and powerful families want even more. My home lost over 100 thousand in value the last couple of years, I see this as money stolen from me to enrich a few banks or Wall street firms.

How that for staying "on topic"?

Every single syllable to typed hermanv. X10!!! You nailed it to the cross!

[Rich-n-Texas]

How did I know you'd try to turn this into f***ing republican bashing BILL? Left wing jerk. And the US wars don't cost you habs any money now do they? Another thing, when McCain gets elected, I hope he sticks to his promise about re-thinking NAFTA.

[hermanv]

Getting back to our friends, the FCC: It used to be that to use "public" spectrum you had to do public service announcements, news was considered a public service announcement. Once that rule was eliminated, the corporations that owned the TV stations quickly converted news departments into a profit sector. Now it doesn't matter if it's in the public interest, it only matters that that time segment makes money. They sort of made it into a moving picture version of the Enquirer.

It's my personal opinion that this was one of the powerful forces that started the decline of our great nation. Privatization (giving things that the taxpayer owns to corporations) sucks.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sorry hermanv. I lost composure there for a minute. (I'm still an hour away from my first Tequilla shot of the weekend.) :smilewinkgrin:

And now a word from our for-profit sponsor: Blue Cross Blue Shield NA.

[Feanor]

How did I know you'd try to turn this into f***ing republican bashing BILL? Left wing jerk. And the US wars don't cost you habs any money now do they? Another thing, when McCain gets elected, I hope he sticks to his promise about re-thinking NAFTA.

'Fraid they do: Canadian troops are fighting in Afganistan. Did you not know that? Yes, and I do mean fighting, unlike other NATO members with cushy duties in the north of the country, etc. Thank goodness we aren't also in Iraq: guess that's why the Canadian dollar has risen for 66 cents US to parity.

What's wrong with bashing the "f***ing Republicans"? It's not like they don't deserve it. I'm not unduly worried about McCain being elected, but of course Barack and Hilary are at least as likely to reopen NAFTA as he is. After all, they're the ones more concerned about the Amerian workers. McCain's a Repulican remember? They're for the rich and the Christion Right; (there's an oxymoron if ever there was one).

[Mr Peabody]

Now if the FCC would start laying fines on those behind HDMI. Man, talking about misguiding the public. The same companies behind it, put out the gear that isn't compatible or only partially compatible.

This is from a conservative, the Republicans need a good kick in the rump. GWB is one of our countries worst presidents. Look at the party, they didn't even have a decent candidate. McCain once had my respect about 8 years ago when he was a maverick talking about campaign reform and blood on the Senate floor. It wasn't about a week or so after Bush got elected they stuffed a sock in McCain's mouth and taught him to march in line. For months we heard hype from the media about the golden boy Fred Thompson, wow, was there egg on faces a plenty, he was stupider than any 5th grader. TN should have impeached him, I don't know if I've ever seen anyone not know so much about their job. He's getting paid to keep a seat warm. He probably couldn't find the U.S. on a map. If the Republicans have any good men waiting in the wings they are laying low as to not get Bush stink on them, they want to preserve what may be left of a political career. Aside from what has already been mentioned Bush is trying to contract out the entire federal government to his buddies who bought his presidency, he is an aggressive union buster and virtually eliminated the "middle class" with the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. Now we are seeing what happens when you give a Bush too much rope.

[StevenSurprenant]

Does anyone know why the goverment made digital mandatory?

Why the rush?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Because they want the OTA frequency spectrum back. I think the military is going to use it to brain-zap the Talibon in Afganistan so all our troops can get out of there.

[StevenSurprenant]

Because they want the OTA frequency spectrum back. I think the military is going to use it to brain-zap the Talibon in Afganistan so all our troops can get out of there.


VERY Funny!

Okay, it is clear to me now. Why didn't I think of that. It was right there in front of me all the time.

[hermanv]

I used to work for a company called Conrac making high performance video monitors for industry and government. Back in the late 1960's we made a set with 1215 scan lines and 35MHz video bandwidth. As you night guess the picture was stunning compared to the NTSC 525 scan lines and ~5 MHz bandwidth. The set was vacuum tube based, so the idea of a rush to a better technology is somewhat exaggerated.

The big problem is that for an analog signal doubling either the scan rate (like up to 1080i) or the bandwidth also doubles the radio frequency spectrum space required. For todays best HDTV signals (1080p) about 10 times the radio spectrum space would be needed if the signal was sent in straight analog format.

MPEG is a lossless compression algorithm that allows this 10 to 1 improvement to be sent digitally over a bandwidth very similar to the old NTSC TV signal bandwidth. Since TV signals are basically line of sight and since the HDTV signal in not compatible in any way with an old analog set, the entire spectrum was moved higher in frequency to some of the older UHF spectrum.

The channel 2 to 13 VHF spectrum is in high demand for portable, personal and government services. VHF (very high frequency) was a difficult technology in the early days of television. It's hardly difficult with todays devices and we would not describe it as very high frequency today. In fact small battery operated handheld devices are easily built for those frequencies today.

The mandatory switchover to digital TV was first planned for 2007 it was delayed to allow the industry and the consumer more time to prepare for the transition.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You're so technical hermanv. :smilewinkgrin:

I like my explanation better... Hey, it's the thought that counts right?

Oh, I forgot. You're a double E aren't ya?

[hermanv]

Double E, trophy wife?.

Damn, wrong kind of double E.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Every single syllable to typed hermanv. X10!!! You nailed it to the cross!

Get down off that cross, somebody needs the wood:yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's MY wood. I'm using it for my new fence.:prrr:

[pixelthis]

I used to work for a company called Conrac making high performance video monitors for industry and government. Back in the late 1960's we made a set with 1215 scan lines and 35MHz video bandwidth. As you night guess the picture was stunning compared to the NTSC 525 scan lines and ~5 MHz bandwidth. The set was vacuum tube based, so the idea of a rush to a better technology is somewhat exaggerated.

The big problem is that for an analog signal doubling either the scan rate (like up to 1080i) or the bandwidth also doubles the radio frequency spectrum space required. For todays best HDTV signals (1080p) about 10 times the radio spectrum space would be needed if the signal was sent in straight analog format.

MPEG is a lossless compression algorithm that allows this 10 to 1 improvement to be sent digitally over a bandwidth very similar to the old NTSC TV signal bandwidth. Since TV signals are basically line of sight and since the HDTV signal in not compatible in any way with an old analog set, the entire spectrum was moved higher in frequency to some of the older UHF spectrum.

The channel 2 to 13 VHF spectrum is in high demand for portable, personal and government services. VHF (very high frequency) was a difficult technology in the early days of television. It's hardly difficult with todays devices and we would not describe it as very high frequency today. In fact small battery operated handheld devices are easily built for those frequencies today.

The mandatory switchover to digital TV was first planned for 2007 it was delayed to allow the industry and the consumer more time to prepare for the transition.


Probably where the japanese got the idea for their HD system.
A lot of the sets I worked on in Electronics class still had tubes in some of the high power sections, so I can appreciate this feat.
But I beleive you misspoke, isnt MPEG a lossy codec?
Also we still have to send a signal via 1080i, which is then deinterlaced.
Which is probably the most efficent way to send 1080p right now :1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I may be wrong ( :rolleyes: ) but I think MPEG 4 is lossless. Or is it uncompressed?

[hermanv]

pixelthis is right :3: (it was bound to happen eventually) MPEG is usually configured as a lossy compressor, if significant data reduction is the goal..

From Media Matters LLC
Two complementary image compression schemes are in widespread use: JPEG and MPEG, along with some other, less standardized options. The original JPEG has been used for many years in compressing full color images. JPEG-2000 uses wavelet compression as adopted for the Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI), and enables true lossless compression. MPEG-4 is being adopted rapidly for transmission of audio, video and other data at lower bit-rates for similar quality compared to previous MPEG standards. MPEG-4 part 10 Advanced Video Coding, also known as ITU H.264 typically achieves file sizes and data rates half the rates used in MPEG-2. For MPEG-4, in two very specific instances, known as PCM-I, and Transform bypass, the MPEG-4 toolset allows for lossless encoding of finite picture regions or macroblocks. However, when taken as a whole, the MPEG-4 tool set is not designed to support lossless encoding of entire picture sequences, with any significant degree of data reduction. JPEG-2000 is a technically better solution for this requirement.

So MPEG-4 falls between lossy and lossless, (i.e. loses are zero for small picture areas and not zero for full screens) The amount of loss can be adjusted in the formatting/setup frames.

The only consumer source of pure 1080p I'm aware of is BlueRay, all others do top out at 1080i which in worst case equals one half the information content of 1080p. In most cases the difference between 1080i and 1080p is small. The difference is visible when the camera is panning or sweeping quickly left to right or visa versa., 1080p will have less picture stutter due to a full screen update rate that's twice as fast.

[Smokey]

The only consumer source of pure 1080p I'm aware of is BlueRay, all others do top out at 1080i which in worst case equals one half the information content of 1080p. In most cases the difference between 1080i and 1080p is small.


The difference between 1080i and 1080p is probably more apparent on larger screens than smaller TV. I had Sony HDTV (27HS420) and really could not tell difference between interlace or progressive signal from DVD player or from TV's internal progressive up converter.

But I am supposing on larger TVs (40+), the difference is more apparent especially with fast action scenes.

[O'Shag]

The difference between interlaced and progressive is easily noticable on a tube set of 40". The progressive picture is a lot smoother and more natural. More details are evident because the picture overall looks better resolved. The difference between 480p and 1080i on a 40" tube set is also noticably different, but moreso when viewing native 1080i video programming. What is strange, is that even though I now have a set capable of higher resolution (the sony SXRD), when viewing HD material, there is something very natural and 'real' about the tube tv picture. The tube tv does not suffer from any 'noise'. Motion is much smoother. White levels and black levels are a little more natural looking to. Then again the SXRD set is 72", and thats a lot of screen for the scaling engine to manage.

[hermanv]

The difference between 1080i and 1080p is probably more apparent on larger screens than smaller TV. I had Sony HDTV (27HS420) and really could not tell difference between interlace or progressive signal from DVD player or from TV's internal progressive up converter.

But I am supposing on larger TVs (40+), the difference is more apparent especially with fast action scenes.
I think for still pictures the information content of 1080i and 1080p is identical irrespective of screen sizes.

O'Shag: I find LCD (or LCoS) to be stark and unnatural. I prefer DLP, but that technology seems to be dying. People seem enchanted by the "hang it on a wall" thin.

Maybe the organic LED will prove to be the inheritor of that CRT color smoothness and contrast. The older quite expensive plasmas seemed more film like than LCD to me, but price pressures have reduced the picture quality while keeping the other plasma limitations.

[pixelthis]

Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in
interlaced material.
I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.
One question, do you think that 1080p OTA will ever happen, or will deinterlacing
1080i remain the norm?
Will the very slight advantage of a native progressive signal over one rendered from 1080i
ever be worth the extra bandwidth? :1:

[hermanv]

Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in
interlaced material.
I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.
One question, do you think that 1080p OTA will ever happen, or will deinterlacing
1080i remain the norm?
Will the very slight advantage of a native progressive signal over one rendered from 1080i
ever be worth the extra bandwidth? :1:It's hard to know, transmitted HDTV will probably stay at 1080i because of radio spectrum bandwidth. Video over fiber or VDSL may improve. Currently there are cost issues. My first progressive DVD was $1,000 now they are $49.95 at WalMart

It's hard to imagine a better compressor, but if I knew the future I would have bought Microsoft stock in 1983 (10,000 to 1 return).

Generally equipment improves up to the specification limit over time. NTSC TV in the 1950's did not look as good as SDTV NTSC today.

[Smokey]

Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in interlaced material. I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.


I don't think any body denied that high motion scenes does suffer in interlace mode. What started all argument was statement you made that interlace picture is half resolution of progressive mode.


It's hard to know, transmitted HDTV will probably stay at 1080i because of radio spectrum bandwidth/

There might be no reason to broadcast in 1080p if TV (or satellite/cable box) can internally deinterlace 1080i feed and reconstruct it back to 1080p. Especially if source is film base.

[pixelthis]

I don't think any body denied that high motion scenes does suffer in interlace mode. What started all argument was statement you made that interlace picture is half resolution of progressive mode.

What I actually said was that an interlaced pic could lose up to half of its res if there
is movement, which is true.
YOU DONT HAVE ANY SUCH LOSS WITH A PROGRESSIVE FORMAT.
Deinterlacing 480i was the best thing you could do to it, as is the case with deinterlacing 1080i, because of elimination of interlacing artifacts


There might be no reason to broadcast in 1080p if TV (or satellite/cable box) can internally deinterlace 1080i feed and reconstruct it back to 1080p. Especially if source is film base.[/QUOTE]

What I beleive.
It will happen eventually, tho :1:

[Mr Peabody]

I know theoretically 1080i is supposed to have possible artifacts in fast motion scenes but I don't think, and have never read, you only get half resolution. If your rez went 50% up and down, now that, would be noticeable. I've also had resolution debates with Pix and from researching different sources I found that even the "Pros" can't agree. One article gave a seemingly good explanation why you won't be able to see much difference between 1080i and 1080p. If I remember correctly, and I usually do :), the theory had something to do with 60Hz and frames per second, went mostly over my head. With BR now being able to do 60Hz and 24 frame I'm not sure if that article holds water any more. Logically, you'd think 1080p vs 1080i would be as much difference as 480p to 480i but logic doesn't seem to count in PQ. Also, my personal theory is your source and display, and their interaction between each other, is probably more critical than anything.

[pixelthis]

I know theoretically 1080i is supposed to have possible artifacts in fast motion scenes but I don't think, and have never read, you only get half resolution. If your rez went 50% up and down, now that, would be noticeable. I've also had resolution debates with Pix and from researching different sources I found that even the "Pros" can't agree. One article gave a seemingly good explanation why you won't be able to see much difference between 1080i and 1080p. If I remember correctly, and I usually do :), the theory had something to do with 60Hz and frames per second, went mostly over my head. With BR now being able to do 60Hz and 24 frame I'm not sure if that article holds water any more. Logically, you'd think 1080p vs 1080i would be as much difference as 480p to 480i but logic doesn't seem to count in PQ. Also, my personal theory is your source and display, and their interaction between each other, is probably more critical than anything.


24 fps and pixel for pixel is a hugh advance.
AND YOU CAN tell the diff, at least with 480i.
Other aspects of HD render it so good that minor res fluctuations go by the boards.
But I recall seeing computer generated (3D) logos for local news programs, always wondered why they looked so frigging good compared to the rest of the broadcast.
A lot of the operations of electronics are arcane to say the least, most is theory that works, until a better one comes along.
But its okay if your are dubious, I cant even get people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive :1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

For the love of Gawd pix, it's huge not hugh !!! Please!!!

[Mr Peabody]

I thought current flowed from East to West.

[pixelthis]

For the love of Gawd pix, it's huge not hugh !!! Please!!!

I know, but with my typing you take what you can get, and a slight case of dyslexia doesnt help ( a man walked into a bra...) :1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I thought current flowed from East to West.
Noooooooo!!! Okay, if you have a meter that reads AC or DC or Ohms or whatever, look at the probe connection jacks. Notice that the black ground jack is on the left and the red "hot" jack is on the right. Sooooo, current flows from left to right! :rolleyes:

FINALLY!!! Something I know that these audio eggheads don't! :23:

[hermanv]

I hate to be picky (Not true, I love being picky). Electrons flow from negative to positive, current flows from positive to negative. So you can have it both ways.

Current is a flow of holes (places where electrons are missing) yes it's obtuse, blame the physicists.

http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/murphy/HoleFlow/ElectricFluid.html

[Rich-n-Texas]

Mr. Irwin, my high school electric shop teacher got pretty angry with me when I answered a test question with what I posted above. That's the honest to Gawd truth. On the bench's instrument panel in front of me, the voltmeter had the banana jacks with the ground connection on the left and the positive connection on the right. I did ultimately pass the test though. :o

[hermanv]

Mr. Irwin, my high school electric shop teacher got pretty angry with me when I answered a test question with what I posted above. That's the honest to Gawd truth. On the bench's instrument panel in front of me, the voltmeter had the banana jacks with the ground connection on the left and the positive connection on the right. I did ultimately pass the test though. :oOh yeah? What about on the other side of the equator - huh, huh? :) :) :)

[Smokey]

I hate to be picky (Not true, I love being picky). Electrons flow from negative to positive, current flows from positive to negative.

hermanv, stop being so picky :D

In electronic schematic labeling, by default the direction of current (+ to -) is shown as oppose to direction of electrons (- to +). This way negative or ground can be used as a reference point (0 V).

[hermanv]

In electronic schematic labeling, by default the direction of current (+ to -) is shown as oppose to direction of electrons (- to +). This way negative or ground can be used as a reference point (0 V).Does your handle refer in any way to what you do for relaxation? :D :D :D

Seriously though, the highest voltage is usually drawn on top. For the majority of designs that is the positive supply (like in all tube circuits). For telephony -48VDC is the highest voltage so it is drawn on top. Unseasoned fresh graduates often draw it with negative 48V on the bottom, they are sneered at by old hands.

The telephony people learned quickly that buried wire dissolved due to electrolysis when the minus battery terminal was grounded. By tying th positive terminal to ground the -48V on the buried cables causes the conductors to slowly get bigger.

[Smokey]

Does your handle refer in any way to what you do for relaxation? :D :D :D

That is for me to know, and for you to find out :p


For telephony -48VDC is the highest voltage so it is drawn on top. Unseasoned fresh graduates often draw it with negative 48V on the bottom, they are sneered at by old hands

That make sense too, as again 0 Volts (ground) is used as the reference. The only difference is that current flow is now reversed and hopefully new graduate label it as so. Current now flow from the ground :)


The telephony people learned quickly that buried wire dissolved due to electrolysis when the minus battery terminal was grounded. By tying th positive terminal to ground the -48V on the buried cables causes the conductors to slowly get bigger.

That is interesting. When you are refering to -48DCV battery terminals, is ground (0V) positive or negative terminal?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh yeah? What about on the other side of the equator - huh, huh? :) :) :)
"Warning, warning!" "Danger, danger!" "Danger Will Robinson!" "That does not compute!" "That does not compute!" :crazy:

That is for me to know, and for you to find out :p
"The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:

[hermanv]

<snip>
That is interesting. When you are refering to -48DCV battery terminals, is ground (0V) positive or negative terminal?Sorry I wasn't clear. Occasionally in the rush to post a reply you say what seems quite clear at the time and when you look at it later it was crap.

If you ground the negative terminal all the telephony wires end up positive with respect to Earth ground, so if the negative battery terminal was grounded the wires slowly dissolved. For modern telephony the positive battery terminal is the one that's grounded, leaving the wires with a net negative charge.

To understand what's going on, loop up electroplating. Atoms (Ions actually) are leached from the positive electrode and deposited on the negative electrode. In this case when the battery negative terminal was grounded, copper was removed from the wires and distributed into the dirt surrounding the cable and when the battery positive terminal was grounded, atoms moved from the dirt to the wires.

[Smokey]

""The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:

Saw that thread and reason I didn’t participate was that haven’t seen previews or the movie, so really didn’t know what to say. If you see it, please give us a review in FF :)


If you ground the negative terminal all the telephony wires end up positive with respect to Earth ground, so if the negative battery terminal was grounded the wires slowly dissolved. For modern telephony the positive battery terminal is the one that's grounded, leaving the wires with a net negative charge.

To understand what's going on, loop up electroplating. Atoms (Ions actually) are leached from the positive electrode and deposited on the negative electrode. In this case when the battery negative terminal was grounded, copper was removed from the wires and distributed into the dirt surrounding the cable and when the battery positive terminal was grounded, atoms moved from the dirt to the wires.

Learn something new everyday. Thanks for info.

[pixelthis]

Like I said, I EVEN HAVE TROUBLE getting people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive (which is the case) :1:

[pixelthis]

"Warning, warning!" "Danger, danger!" "Danger Will Robinson!" "That does not compute!" "That does not compute!" :crazy:

"The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:
It is, and Paltrows legs are getting even better reviews:1:

[hermanv]

Like I said, I EVEN HAVE TROUBLE getting people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive (which is the case) :1:Current flows from positive to negative, electrons flow from negative to positive.

http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/murphy/HoleFlow/ElectricFluid.html

Actually no one cares. :)

[pixelthis]

Current flows from positive to negative, electrons flow from negative to positive.

http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/murphy/HoleFlow/ElectricFluid.html

Actually no one cares. :)

current IS electrons, voltage the "pressure" in a water pipe.
I saw a cartoon in todays paper, people were walking into the "cemetary of last words",
on one tombstone it said "wheres the ripcord?".
On another it said "AC or DC , whats it matter"?
So some should care :1: