Have @ $700.00 for a new sub. need some advice

[eagleputt]

I'll try not to goof this up to bad as this is my first post.
I am begining to upgrade my HT system and really need to change out my sub first I believe, as I currently have and old Bose Acoustimass 3 from a Lifetyle III sytem I bought ten years ago. It is the weakest link and I love BASS!!
I currently have a Harmon Kardon Avr 340 with my Bose single red cube's in fron and Bose 161 in the rear. (Please go easy on me as I have figured that there are a lot better speakers out here for @ the same price.) And I have a DCM KX center center speaker to round thing's out.
My room is 25' wide, 10' of that is the dining area, and 19 ' deep with 10' ceilings .It is mostly 18" Ceramic tile with the sitting area, @ 10' x 10' carpeted. I have a 40" x 60" x 24" media niche with a 9' ceiling taht has our 56" samsung HT-L5687s in it.
my question is what subs would you recommend between $500.00 and $700.00. Size is an issue (I call mine WIF :incazzato: ) because it will be out in the open. No 15" subs unfortunately.
I have a chance to p/u a New Deftech Supercube II for $650.00 and the size of the unit would work well.
Do you think this is a good deal or is there something better I should look at?
I appreciate your input.

[basite]

Hi, welcome to AR...

I think a new sub is not the most critical upgrade for you...
I'd start looking for better speakers first, since the little bose cubes won't go low enough themselves to meet the crossover point for the sub.

So you'll end up with disortion and a frequency gap.

you could use the sub from the bose system for now, and get new speakers (especially the mains...), and then save on for a good sub...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

Basite makes a good point. But if you've already made up your mind on a sub, then I'd take a look at these. http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=536
These kits are a snap to put together. Takes less than an hour from start to finish. I have the 15" Titanic, but the 10 and 12 do a great job as well. These represent good quality at a fair price. You could end up with enough left over to add a BFD. http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDSP1124P
One of these will help you control the bass you do have. http://bfdguide.ws/

[eagleputt]

Okay, lets say I have $1200.00 for some new fronts. What would you recommend? I have listened to the Deftech BP 7006 and 7004 which I liked. I'm working on the WIF @ getting floor standing speakers and how much better they will sound and I think it's working. The one great thing @ her is that she LOVES her music, so I have that going for me, which is nice.
Now the Center speaker is a different story as I have very limited space, about 18" in width. My current one is actually on the floor until I can find one to fit on my TV stand as wall mounting/shelving isn't an option due to the media niche. $400.00 - $500.00 price range for this.
Thanks

[blackraven]

Look at B&W 683's and 684's or NHT classic 4's which have a nice warm rich sound with very good bass. The B&W's have a more neutral sound and are very detailed. These are floor standers. These will sound much better than the DEFTECH's IMO. If you want bookshelf speakers look at the B&W 685's or the NHT Classic Three's which would be my choice. Both are in the $650 price range but list for higher. Look at the B&W LCR3 center, its the one I use and its small and sounds great with dialog. There are better but not for the size.

For a $600 sub I like the Martin Logan Dynamo. Its 10"s and its great for music.

[N. Abstentia]

You seem to like DefTechs...so why not get new DefTech towers with built in subs? Upgrade from your Blose speakers and get your bass fix all at the same time!

[captjamo]

Try outlawaudio.com for the best sub I know of in your price range. You may even like their new line of HT speakers.

[blackraven]

Eagle, besides the martin logan look at the Velodyne MiniVee or SPL8 subs. They have a small foot print but big sound. All three of these have very tight, clean sounding bass and are great for music and good for HT. Also consider some of the lower priced T series REL subs. www.sumikoaudio.net REL makes some of the best subs in the world!

You can find that ML sub at best buy magnolia, its very musical with no boom or muddiness. It has a small foot print as well.

[eagleputt]

Thanks for all the info. I am going to go check out some of the B&W speakers tomorrow and the NHT's Friday to compare to the DefTechs 7004 & 7006's I heard. I finally found some better Stores than BB & CC(which has nothing)I'm going to go with 2 floor standers and a new center to start. Hopefully the bass will be enough and I can always use my Bose sub if needed as a temp agent as I have a budget in the $1600.00 area and really dont want settle for something I am not happy with. Will start looking at the subs and will probably get one in the next 30 days.

[audio amateur]

It's all about Blose...

[topspeed]

Keep in mind, the DefTech's are bipolar and will require ample breathing room around them to work properly. If you have WAF considerations (and it certainly appears you do), you'd best make sure she'll check off on having floorstanders sitting out in the listening area. You'll need at least 3' from any wall/armoire/whatever, minimum. Food for thought...

Your budget allows a huge selection of speakers to choose from. The usual suspects are B&W, Paradigm, PSB, Monitor Audio, Energy, and Focal. If you want to try something different, consider Martin Logan or Magnepan. The latter two are bipolar planer speakers and will require the same space considerations as the DT's, but they have a different sound and offer the unique cohesiveness of panel speakers.

The most important thing for you right now is to realize this a marathon, not a sprint. Take your time auditioning everything you can find. Listen to different types of speakers, not just different brands. You've got acoustic suspension, bass reflex, transmission line, line array, electrostatics, magnetic planer, etc. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. A great speaker will give decades of enjoyment, so do your homework and get it right the first time. Audition with well recorded material that you know well and enjoy regularly. Dealers use demos with material tailor made for specific speakers. Use your own. Remember, the only opinion that matters is your own.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

[L.J.]

Keep in mind, the DefTech's are bipolar and will require ample breathing room around them to work properly. If you have WAF considerations (and it certainly appears you do), you'd best make sure she'll check off on having floorstanders sitting out in the listening area. You'll need at least 3' from any wall/armoire/whatever, minimum. Food for thought...

Your budget allows a huge selection of speakers to choose from. The usual suspects are B&W, Paradigm, PSB, Monitor Audio, Energy, and Focal. If you want to try something different, consider Martin Logan or Magnepan. The latter two are bipolar planer speakers and will require the same space considerations as the DT's, but they have a different sound and offer the unique cohesiveness of panel speakers.

The most important thing for you right now is to realize this a marathon, not a sprint. Take your time auditioning everything you can find. Listen to different types of speakers, not just different brands. You've got acoustic suspension, bass reflex, transmission line, line array, electrostatics, magnetic planer, etc. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. A great speaker will give decades of enjoyment, so do your homework and get it right the first time. Audition with well recorded material that you know well and enjoy regularly. Dealers use demos with material tailor made for specific speakers. Use your own. Remember, the only opinion that matters is your own.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

Well said Top!!

[eagleputt]

Listened to a few of the B&W speakers today and all I can say is WOW!! Until today I never realized how much I have been missing when listenig to my music or watching a movie. When I got home my wife asked me what I was smiling about and all I could say is you'll find out.
I listened to the 683, 684, 685, both center speakers, CM Centre and the CM1. I brought a selection of CD's to cover what I like to listen to, Floyd, Steely Dan, Dave Matthews and Van Halen Fair Warning. (that's when the slaes rep took off).
Liked the 683's much more than the 684's. Liked both the 685's and the CM1(liked this better of course).
It was a good first day and has me excited to listen to the other recommendations you all have given me.
This weekend I will be hitting the NHT dealer and then I'll have to find some shop's that carry some of the other manufacturer's. By the way, does anyone know of some good shops in the SoCal Riverside/San Bernadino area? There is nothing much in the yellow pages except a bunch of HT co's that don't have a showroom to listen in.
Thanks again for all the advice and I'll keep you updated

[blackraven]

Those 683's are really sweet sounding and have a much fuller sound than the 684's. The NHT's have a much different sound. They are very warm, smooth and have excellent bass.
The Classic 3's and Classic 4 which is a floor stander are nice because the Classic 3 is a 3 way and the classic 4 is a 4 way, the midrange and bass are really smooth because you dont have a bass driver trying to do both the midrange and bass. The Classic 4 has a 10" side firing woofer as well as a 6.5" woofer and it goes down to 27Hz to provide some serious bass.

Both brands of speakers are great which ever you decide to go with.

Keep us posted and let us know what you think about the NHT's. Try to listen to the same music that you used for the B&W's.

[RoyY51]

Try DMC Electronics in Garden Grove. David, the owner, has a great selection of speaker manufacturers and will let you take your time auditioning them. He also will discount for cash.

[eagleputt]

Thanks for the heasd up RoyY51. Thats @ 20 mins from my house.

[RoyY51]

Glad to help. David has been good to me through the years, and most of my current set-up has been purchased from him. He's a genuine audiophile who doesn't mind making recommendations based on performance...not just profit margins. I initially wanted to buy more expensive speakers, but David showed me, in side-by-side comparisons, that my MA B2's were a much better match with my NAD electronics than the well-regarded speakers that I had been considering. I truly believe that he's in it to make life-long customers instead of a quick sale.

Happy Hunting!

Roy

P.S. You can make it from Perris to Garden Grove in 20 minutes? What kind of plane do you fly?

[eagleputt]

Well I have listened to a few other speakers in the last few days. I listened to the NHT classic 3's, Three C center, Totem Hawk and Rainmakers. The classic 3's and Three C center were not for me. They sounded pretty harsh and the high end sounded all mixed together. They have had @ 50 hours break in and the rep said that could be part of the reason. He's going to break them in some more and call me when they reach 100 hrs.
The Totem speakers on the other hand sounded wonderful. Rich full soundstage that filled the room. Of couse the Hawks, which are a floor standing speaker, sounded great with a nice soft gentle clear sound that filled the room no matter were you were, The Rainmaker which is the bookshelf model with the same tweeter and woofer as the hawk sounded almost as good.
The Rainmaker center was very impressive in sound and the fact that no matter which of the 10 seats in the "theater" I sat in, it sounded the same as sitting in the front row center seat. Dialogue was clear and warm without being harsh when the screaming went up. I could not hear any hot spots or drop off as I can with my current center.
So now I am going to listen to some PSB and Paradigm speakers at a shop Roy recommended and anopther shop I found that is @ 30 mins away.
I have also been told to check out Aperion speakers as they have a similar sound to the Totems and B&W's I liked. Has anyone heard anything about Aperion and there speakers?
I know that they offer a 30 day money back listening period and they pay for shipping BOTH ways. I checked out the web site but was wondering if anyone has actually listened to them?
This weekend I pulled out my old JBL LX44's and stand's and set them up front and took down the Bose cubes( on ebay as we speak ). These are much bigger and I think that having these up for awhile will get my WIF ( I know you call it WAF) to get used to them so I can go with a tower speaker set up instead of the bookshelf speakers. So far so good. Wish me luck and and I appreciate any input you mayt have.
Mark
PS-Roy my plane is a 2007 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, but even that will not get me to Garden Grove in 20 mins. I mistook that with Garden Terrace which is 20 mins away. DWC is @ 60 mile from my home.

[blackraven]

I find it very interesting that you found the NHT classic three's harsh. My friend and I found them to be one of the warmest, smoothest and least harsh sounding book shelfs that we have heard. They blew away some paradigm studio monitors and B&W 685's in warmth and smoothness. Even the review by www.stereophile.com failed to call them harsh. They commented on its transparency, bass and high level dynamics. It just goes to show how we all hear different things when it comes to audio equipment.

Do you remember what amp and CDP was being used for the NHT's.

[eagleputt]

Yeah I thought it was weird as my Blose cubes sounded better. He was running an Integra Receiver that was 200 watts per channel and @ $1800.0 he wanted me to buy.. Now this was a guy who ran the business from his home and had one hell of a set up in his theater room.Motorized speakercraft in ceiling speakers, $3500.00 JL sub that just rocked my chest harder than any sub I've heard. I am not convinced that the NHT's sound like that and that maybe he wanted me to be more intersted in the Totems. He switched them out right in front of me so I don't know. But I do have a AV store I found that has the NHT line and I will go listen to them again. I have read many of the reviews on them and that is why I haven't given up on them.
Through a bit of ebaying I have managed to raise my booty to about $2000.00 for front speakers, center speaker and sub. I still have a few more goodies so I expect that to go up a couple hundred more.

[RoyY51]

You might also consider the Outlaw LCR speakers, mated with an Outlaw sub. These are brand-new, so you won't find many reviews, but the Outlaws have a reputation of delivering high-end sound at pedestrian prices. Their LFM-1 sub (I own one) is the best sub that I've ever heard for under $1000, and it was less than $600.
I believe that you can purchase all three front speakers, plus the sub, for about $2000. Since this is an internet-only business you will be paying a lot less than you would from your typical retailer.

Happy Hunting!

[eagleputt]

Ok, I'm back. It's been tough to find the time to go listen to some speakers as its just been crazy @ my house but I did manage.
I have been able to listen to a few speakers and have changed the game plan. Right now its new floorstanding & center speakers and a new receiver.
Speakers I've listened to are PSB T45, T55 & Stratus GT1, NHT Classic 3 & 4, Paradigm Monitor 7, 9 V5 & studio 60, B&W 683 & 684's again and the Monitor Audio Silver series RS6 & RS8. I have also listened to all the matching center speakers mentioned above.
I have narrowed it down to the B&W 683's and Monitor Audio RS6 or RS8 with the RS8 leading at the moment. Tomorrow I go back to listen to the RS6 and RS8 and if the RS8 work as well as the RS6 when only 6" from the wall( I have space constraints + WAF) we will have a winner . Not only do I love the sound of these speakers first and foremost but they also work with the space issue and WAF. I also really liked the Paradigm Studio
60's but there was a lot of port noise when moved within 6" of the wall and they are already 17" deep. The NHT and PSB ( either to small or to big )are just not for me though the NHT's did sound much better at this shop. The 683's would work great and sound wonderful even when put 6" from the wall but its the Monitor Audio's if they work.

The second part of this should I get the MA's is I need to get a different Receiver( I think). My H/K 340 does not due 6 ohms( only 8 ) and the MA's say they are a 6 ohm speaker.So to follow the manufactures guidlines I am looking at a new recever. Am I correct in this thinking?
I have a buddy who bought a Yamaha HTR 6180 2 months ago and has to get rid of it. I can get it for $500.00 and Yamaha will let me switch the warranty to my name with his receipt. Among the many features and increased power (105w per channel) I also like the HD sound options and the 1080p upconversion for my DVR. I don't need THX certified as my room is over 5000 cubic feet.
Is there another receiver I should look at for @ $500.00 as this is what I will have left after I buy the 3 speakers.
Also, to Bi-wire or not to Bi-wire? This whole Bi-wire thing is new to me and I don't know if I should get the Bi-Wire with a smaller gauge wire or just get the 10 or 12 ga wire and use the factory crossover? I am open to any suggestions.
I have put the sub and new surrounds on hold for now but was able to listen to a few HSU subs at their factory in Anahiem and get a tour but that's for another day.
Thanks again for all your suggestions as I would have

PS- RoyY51 Thanks for the DMC suggestion as David's been great and they have a nice selection. Man that guy has a ton of product in his store.

[Mash]

I bought a Technics SL1200Mk5 for $400 from a musician's/DJ dealer (PSSL), which was more favorable (to me) than the $550 that NeedleDoctor wanted (on sale!)

Many seem to feel that you should consider a speaker upgrade first, and this is usually correct, but note that an amplifier upgrade may then be close behind.

You do not have to use "audiophile market" speakers if you are willing to consider pro studio monitor speakers. The problem with pro studio monitors is that they do NOT have grill covers, but they do offer a great bang for your bucks. Of course, you could hide them behind large potted plants.

Mackie's market is recording studio owners who wish to make money, not waste their money, but they also need very accurate pro studio monitor speakers to obtain high quality mixdowns. [This is called earning a livlihood.]

Visit Musician's Friend and/or Music123 [web sites], and note that these dealers offer *FREE* shipping for orders over $100 along with a 45 day approval period: If you don't like what you got, send it back in 45 days.

These Mackie speakers are "active powered", meaning they include amps and speaker feedback control to (greatly) reduce distortion levels that might be caused by their amps and/or cone motion. This is the secret of, say, the Velodyne Servo-15.

The included amps inside each speaker also means that you do not need a new amp, and the above dealers also sell some lovely tube mic preamps in the $30 to $150 range that would serve very nicely in a home stereo.

Mackie HR824Mk2, $600 each, 39Hz to 20 kHz +/- 1.5 dB [Bass & Treble amps: .035% THD, SMPTE IMD, and DIM 100]

Mackie MR8, $250 each, 40 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB

Mackie MR5, $150 each, 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB

Most non-servo 12 "subs" will have a lower *useful* frequency limit in the range of 37Hz to 40 Hz. The servo-12 subs are much better, but at a price.

Mackie also offers an "active powered" HRS120 12 inch sub, but it costs $1100.

I have two pair of the HR824 speakers placed in different parts of the house. These are places where I cannot fit Magnepans with tube amps, and the Mackies really cook. I use a tube mic preamp to drive them. I can feed a CD/DVD player, FM tuner, etc. into the tube mic preamp. The sound is really excellent.

[shokhead]

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html

[JStudrawa]

Are there any subwoofer kits WITHOUT a sub? I've got a couple 12" 800watt Hafler subs and want to incorporate them into my HT.

Thanks.

[Mash]

How about this, from the BAS site?

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/

And the BAS site is well worth more of your time; maybe start here, on Pg 4:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/links4.htm

There is a lot more at the BAS site, after you come up for air...........