External crossover help

[Bigmoney]

Does anyone know of a good two way cross over for my stereo. External we are talking. I have rotel separates and a sub with no internal crossover. I figure I would like to get an external crossover to cross my speakers at 50hz down to the sub. Looking to spend under 300. i know of a behringer model that is onyly 90 dollars but I question the quality due to the price.

[Feanor]

Does anyone know of a good two way cross over for my stereo. External we are talking. I have rotel separates and a sub with no internal crossover. I figure I would like to get an external crossover to cross my speakers at 50hz down to the sub. Looking to spend under 300. i know of a behringer model that is onyly 90 dollars but I question the quality due to the price.

I'd buy the Behringer and trade up if I wasn't pleased or it eventually broke.

If spending more makes you feel more comfortable, the "audiophile" choice is Marchand Electronics. They make a stereo 2-way unit, the XM9 (http://www.marchandelec.com/xm9.html), that you can buy assembled for $600 or as a kit for $350.

[Bigmoney]

Would I be able to crossover both of my front speakers along with my sub. Is that what two way means? Two channels? One to mains and one to sub?

[Feanor]

Would I be able to crossover both of my front speakers along with my sub. Is that what two way means? Two channels? One to mains and one to sub?

Correctly used, the term "2-way crossover" means a low-pass and high-pass filters combination.

The Behringer CS2310 (http://www.behringer.com/CX2310/index.cfm?lang=ENG) is a 2-way but also has a mono subwoofer output; (however from what I can tell, the suboutput has only a low-pass filter, hence unless you want to use the mains full range, you have to use the stereo 2-way for high-pass).

The Behringer is a far more flexible than the Marchand in that it has variable crossover points. A slight drawback is that it has only balance outputs so you would need hybrid XLR-RCA cables; you can get these from, say, Markertek (http://www.markertek.com/ProdList.asp?cat=CABLESCONN&subcat=AUDIOCAB&prodClass=ARCAXLR&search=0&off=).

[Bigmoney]

Okay, so I guess I am a little confused about the filters, low pass and high pass. But I am sure I can look that up. My main question is whether I can use the behringer to cross my mains at say 60 hz down to my sub, like that of a receiver. And my other question is that, would a 100 dollar crossover such as the behringer really be good enough. I only ask because I was talking to my dealer the other day about whether to get a sub with an internal crossover or buy an external for the one I have. He said external's aren't that good unless you spend 500plus but closer to a thousand.

[Feanor]

Okay, so I guess I am a little confused about the filters, low pass and high pass. But I am sure I can look that up. My main question is whether I can use the behringer to cross my mains at say 60 hz down to my sub, like that of a receiver. And my other question is that, would a 100 dollar crossover such as the behringer really be good enough. I only ask because I was talking to my dealer the other day about whether to get a sub with an internal crossover or buy an external for the one I have. He said external's aren't that good unless you spend 500plus but closer to a thousand.

The names aren't deceptive: a "low-pass" filter passes low frequencies while filtering out the highs, hence that's what you used to feed the subwoofer. A "high-pass" passes highs and filters out lows, so that the one through which to feed your mains.

Yes, the Behringer is quite good enough in entry- and mid-range systems. Don't be so foolish as believe everything you hear from local dealers or their sales staff. Don't forget they're out to sell you expensive stuff -- such as a new subwoofer.

[Bigmoney]

Do you think I will notice any sound deterioration by adding an external crossover to my system, just because it is another component through which the signal travels, such as an equalizer.

[Feanor]

Do you think I will notice any sound deterioration by adding an external crossover to my system, just because it is another component through which the signal travels, such as an equalizer.

:idea:I mean, the essense of the problem of hi-fi - the stuff through which the signal has to travel.

Sure, you might notice deterioration, or you might not. Or you might notice a tiny deterioration in one area but a significant improvement in another. The only rule that applies is, "Add nothing to your system that isn't a net benefit". Whether an equalizer will be net benefit to your system? It depends on the problem your trying to solve and whether the EQ is the cheapest and/or most cost effective solution to that problem.

Hence if your actual problem is sound reflections from walls beside your speakers, then room treatments will be a better solution than an EQ and possibly cheaper. If your problem is a few response peaks inherent to your speaker, then an EQ might work well and be cheaper than new speakers. On the other hand if your problems is that your speakers lack resolution, the an EQ will only make things worse. If your problem is you have have a couple of hundred bucks to spare and its burning a hole in you pocket, spend it on music, not an EQ.

[Bigmoney]

sorry if my question was misleading, I wasn't asking aboutan equalizer just using it as an example. I have a few hundred to spare at the moment, I am just trying to decide if the positives of having the crossover, to take a load off my mains, and get a stronger bass through my sub outweigh the negative in that it may deteriorate my sound by adding another link.

[Feanor]

sorry if my question was misleading, I wasn't asking aboutan equalizer just using it as an example. I have a few hundred to spare at the moment, I am just trying to decide if the positives of having the crossover, to take a load off my mains, and get a stronger bass through my sub outweigh the negative in that it may deteriorate my sound by adding another link.

BM, I hope I didn't sound snarky. I gather from your earlier comments that your subwoofer has neither a 2-way crossover nor a low-pass filter, and that your objective is stronger bass with your B&W 602's. Correct?

If so, my guess is a crossover such as the Behringer with high-pass at 80Hz to the mains and low-pass to the sub also at 80Hz, would be a significant improvement without any noticeable deterioration.

[Bigmoney]

That is correct. Do you see any feasable reason to go with a more expensive crossover or will the behringer do just fine. Am I correct in saying that not only will my bass improve with the sub helping out but my mids and highs will improve being the low frequency load is taken off of my monitors? I have heard many say that but will I hear a big difference in mid and hi frequency response given the sub will take some weight off my speakers or is it more in theory that it should sound better but isn't that noticeably. Much like bi wiring.

[Feanor]

That is correct. Do you see any feasable reason to go with a more expensive crossover or will the behringer do just fine. Am I correct in saying that not only will my bass improve with the sub helping out but my mids and highs will improve being the low frequency load is taken off of my monitors? I have heard many say that but will I hear a big difference in mid and hi frequency response given the sub will take some weight off my speakers or is it more in theory that it should sound better but isn't that noticeably. Much like bi wiring.

The Behringer should be quite sufficient quality in your system and, in fact, any but quite high-end systems.

As Kexodusc suggested, you might notice some mid-range improvement by unloading the B&Ws below 80Hz. This would be becasue the B&W mid-bass drivers will be working less hard and therefore producing less distortion. However I think the bigger benefit will be that you get stronger bass. It's simply a fact that one 12" subwoofer has significantly more radiating surface than the two 7" mid-bass drivers and therefore can handle more power with less strain.

[gideonh99]

Hi feanor.

You seem to know what you're talking. I on the other hand am new to the sound thing...

At the moment I have a pair of dali concept 1s run with a NAD 316 BEE.
I love the speakers and amp. The problem is that when I push my Rock up it becomes muddy...

I wanted to know if you think that if I add the behringer you guys are talking about and a sub to the equation would it make things better?

And also how would I connect the xover to the system?

Thanks a whole lot!!!!!!

[Feanor]

Hi feanor.

You seem to know what you're talking. I on the other hand am new to the sound thing...

At the moment I have a pair of dali concept 1s run with a NAD 316 BEE.
I love the speakers and amp. The problem is that when I push my Rock up it becomes muddy...

I wanted to know if you think that if I add the behringer you guys are talking about and a sub to the equation would it make things better?

And also how would I connect the xover to the system?

Thanks a whole lot!!!!!!
As others have said or implied, the modestly powered NAD 316BEE just doesn't have the power to drive your speakers without distortion. As you are aware at this point, it isn't sufficient to just add a subwoofer: you must keep the bass frequencies from the 316BEE out of your main speakers somehow to prevent distortion

The problem I see when I look at the manual for the 316BEE is that it has NO preamp line-level outputs; (the Tape Out isn't volume controlled so you can't use that). If it had preamp outs, you could add a crossover that routes the only bass to a subwoofer and only the highs to a separate amplifier -- but it doesn't so you're out of luck.

You might look for a decent subwoofer that will (a) accept speaker-level inputs and provides speaker-level outputs, and (b) provides a high-pass filter that will send on only the high frequencies through to the speaker-level ouputs. However sub that combines good quality and higher power handling with these features might be hard to find.

Perhaps you should just bite the bullet and trade up to a more powerful amp, say, a NAD 356BEE or 375BEE that will provide more power like the 150 wpc that these do. You could also add a subwoofer which would be easier in that case because they provide preamp outputs.

[gideonh99]

The problem as always is that damn bank manager;) There is a NAD 325 BEE that a guy is selling. Do you think it might be worth selling my NAD and getting this model. In other words get the 325 and then if it is possible get a sub later? I never thoght it would make a difference if the amp has a smaller output than the speakers. I thought as long as the amp is not bigger than the speakers it all would be fine. Funny how ignorant one can be:) Have a great evening!!!!!

[Feanor]

The problem as always is that damn bank manager;) There is a NAD 325 BEE that a guy is selling. Do you think it might be worth selling my NAD and getting this model. In other words get the 325 and then if it is possible get a sub later? I never thoght it would make a difference if the amp has a smaller output than the speakers. I thought as long as the amp is not bigger than the speakers it all would be fine. Funny how ignorant one can be:) Have a great evening!!!!!
In the home context the speaker maximum power ratings are fairly irrelevant. You can use a higher output amp if you want to with no harm provided you don't driver the speaker to obvious distortion.

I don't see much point to upgrading to the 325. The power increase of the 325 over the 316, 50 wpc vs. 40 wpc, is completely insignificant. The NAD 325 BEE, unlike the 316 provides Preamp Out connections which gives you more flexibility to connect a subwoofer, however 325 doesn't provide a high-pass filter to restrict its bass output to your speakers. So you're not a whole lot better off with the 325 than the 316. Save your pennies and step up to 375, or probably better, a Cambridge Azur 851A.

[blackraven]

I agree, get a new integrated or a nice receiver like a marantz.

[gideonh99]

ah ****!!! Ok I will start saving then:D

thanks so much for the help!!!!!